The Bobby Bones Show - MORGAN: Vestibular Specialist Holly Talks Vertigo, the Causes, Prevention, & Living With It

Episode Date: April 13, 2025

TAKE THIS PERSONALLY WITH MORGAN: Vestibular Specialist Holly Cauthan is the one person who could help Morgan after she was diagnosed with BPPV (positional vertigo). Holly helped her understand the diagnosis, the cause, prevention, and living with it so now she's helping everyone else with all the information Morgan received. Plus, Holly is debunking some myths around vertigo for fellow sufferers in hopes they can understand their diagnosis better. Follow Holly: @hollycauth Follow Morgan: @webgirlmorgan Follow Take This Personally: @takethispersonallySee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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like an insider, you don't want to miss this episode. Listen to the Sports Slice Podcast on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more, follow Timbo Slice of Life 12 and TikTok podcast network on TikTok. In 2023, Bachelor star Clayton Eckerd was accused of fathering twins. But the pregnancy appeared to be a hoax. You doctored this particular test twice, some cellans, correct? I doctored the test ones. It took an army of internet detectives to uncover a disturbing pattern. Two more men who'd been through the same thing.

Greg, a lesbian. My mind was blown. I'm Stephanie Young. This is Love Trapped. Laura, Scottsdale Police. As the season continues, Laura Owens finally faces consequences. Listen to Love Trapped podcast on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. In 2025, Vertigo affects about 1 in 10 people worldwide, with women being more prone to it than men.

Additionally, 15 to 20% of adults experience dizziness annually. That's why we're doing an episode all about vertigo. I am, unfortunately, part of the 1 in 10. I was diagnosed with BPPV last year after my first positional vertigo episode in February of 2024. It was my first time ever knowing or experiencing vertigo, but after posting several moments of my BPP, diagnosis and journey. Several people online have come forward with similar ailments and issues, so I wanted to dedicate an episode to all of the vertigo sufferers. Holly Cawthon joins me this episode. She's a friend and a vestibular specialist at Vanderbill and the reason that I'm

operating at 100% again after both of my BPPV episodes. So you'll hear some of my experiences, but through the lens of Holly, the actual expert on this particular topic. I'm bringing on not only one of my good friends, but also a good friend by way of vertigo. Her name is Holly. Holly is a vestibular specialist in the physical therapy world. And she's basically saved my life on multiple occasions now. Hey, Holly. Thanks for joining. Hey, Morgan. Thanks for having me. How are you feeling right now in this moment? I'm good. I'm good. Ready to talk all about all things vertigo. Yes. Okay. I want to know how you got into this line of work because it's so specific and you yourself don't have vertigo. No, that's true. I don't. One of my clinicals actually canceled on me in physical

therapy school. So I ended up going to a clinic that was about an hour away from Mobile, Alabama, which is where I went to PT school. And my clinical instructor happened to be a vestibular specialist. And so it just fell in my lap. I was good at it and I loved it. And it's all I've ever done for 13 years. I've never done a single day of ortho. So I can't help you with your shoulder. I can't help you with your knees or ankles, but I can do anything balanced and dizziness. Okay, in vestibular, give us the breakdown of what all that encompasses when I say you're a vestibular specialist. Yeah, so it's the inner ear. It's really that easy. All things balance, all things dizziness, and then also concussions fit in with that, vestibular migraines.

In like tinnitus, meneers, are those some of the things that you work with? So tinnitus is the one thing we can't touch really in the vestibular world. There's nothing we can do about that. But meneers and other things like labyrinthitis, weaknesses of the inner ear that I can help with. Okay. And obviously, vertigo, which for me, what I dealt with and stumbled on to you was BPPV, which is benign positional parisimil. I can never say the second P.

That's so close. Benign proxysimal positional vertigo. Thank you. I just always end up saying positional vertigo. Yeah, no, and that's a good way to put it. So it's the number one vestibular diagnosis, and it's actually my specialty and the easiest to treat. Okay, you say easiest to treat, and I remember my treatment as I was like, this is not easy.

But it's so funny, Holly and I was a patient doctor situation, if you will. It was always funny because Holly would always reference things. She'd be like, this is so robust. Oh my gosh, Morgan, this is beautiful. Or like just like this moment. And I'm like, Holly, no, it's not. That's true. It was, but you were experiencing like, okay, this is like something I can work with and something

I can treat where I was sitting here and I was like, I don't want something to be beautiful in my eyes and in my ear. As I'm staring like closely into your eyes. Yes. Okay. BPPV vertigo, this situation. How does it happen for people? Like I stumbled into your office because there was a listener of the Bobby Bone show who reached out

to me on Instagram. What was her name? Katrina. Katrina. She's my colleague. And she was. like, I have a friend who can work wonders on you. I was like, oh my gosh, do anything to help me right now. I got set up with you. Had no idea somebody like you even existed, which is why I brought

you on here. The best kept secret. You are, but you shouldn't be a secret. Like, you are helping people who have a debilitating illness all the time. So how does somebody end up one with vertigo or BPPV? What are the kind of different variations that would make somebody land in your office? with this. So let's start going to with what is BPPB. It is room spinning vertigo that happens with position like positional changes. So laying down, rolling over in bed, sitting up, all of those things make your world go round and round and you can't figure out which way is up. So that's the definition of it. In the little crystals in your ears and they move from the rocky wall. I will always remember you telling me that. Yeah. So they're called odiconia, little calcium carbonate. They are super small little

rocks that come out of your utricles. So that's your balance organ. And they go into one of your six semicircular canals. And they send false signals to your brain that you're like going upside down. And again, it makes the world go round and round. Which is I describe in two ways. Like when I experienced vertigo, it was, I was either on a tiltor world or I was like had a blackout drunk moment in the world will not stop spinning. Those were like the two similarities I could relate it to. It's a crazy experience. And then, but why does it happen for some people? Why does it not happen for others and like how can it happen?

Can it happen to anybody? Give me the breakdown. Okay, the breakdown. So it usually happens to people from ages 50 to 70 years old. You are rare. I rarely see it in someone in our early 30s. So that's different. Welcome to my life.

Yeah, exactly. You're special. Always been special in the doctor's office. It's usually idiopathic. We actually don't really know why it happens to some people and not others. Now, it can be attached to things like migraines and things like if you have an inner ear problem already, it's going to attach on to that. And you're going to be at a higher risk for BPPV. But for majority of people, it just happens one day when you wake up.

And it's terrifying. It's actually really scary. So most people think they're having a stroke or even a heart attack and they run to the emergency room. And from what I've learned, running to the emergency room is only going to get you some medicine, send you on your way and say you have some nausea medicine that'll help you not feel like that side effect. But it doesn't actually treat the symptom, which is vertigo. The medicine that they give you, so it's usually something called mechlazine or an anivert,

it really, it's like a dramomene on steroids. It really doesn't do anything to help the underlying cause. So it's a bit of a bandaid. It might take the edge off a little bit, but it's not going to stop the world from spinning. around you. And what does actually stop the world from spinning around you is maneuvers. Yes, me. Yes. That's how people get to Holly by way of typically ear, nose and throat doctors who then recommend to her. So the maneuvers, but tell people how you diagnose because every time I show these crazy videos of you putting the goggles on me and my eyes going crazy, everybody's, I didn't even

know this is wild technology. Tell people what happens when somebody comes in and you're treating them for vertigo. So I put you in different testing positions, and I watch your eyes. When the crystals move within those semicircular canals, there's little hairs in there. And again, the signals are sent to the brain, and they actually make your eyes move in certain directions. And so I watch the eyes, and that tells me where the crystals are located. And that helps me choose a maneuver to treat you.

How many maneuvers are actually out there? Because this is a very controversial thing. because I remember you're like, I told you I did the Epley maneuver and you're like, oh, dear gosh. No, not because the Epley is bad, but because it's not a, Vertigo is not a one size fits all. And people use Epley in that capacity. Correct. So most people have heard of something called the modified Epley. And that treats the posterior and anterior canals.

Now, greater than 93, 95% of the time, that's probably going to work. But I see B, PPP, all day, every day. day. And so, of course, it doesn't fix everyone's. So we, gosh, I don't even, I don't even know how many maneuvers there are, but there are a lot. There are. And even when we were going through my treatment, I remember you pulling out the book and you're like, I think we need to do a different maneuver that I don't typically have to do. I think I had to do three on you. And I remember telling people that you did the barbecue roll on me. I'm like, you know, like, you were rode to him. Like, yeah, it was a literal skewer on a barbecue is what basically she did to me. You were a special case though because you

started out in one canal and then you switched to another canal and so it got a little bit muddy. So that's why we had to use so many maneuvers. And how often do you see like that happen where you're a, you called me a multi-canal BPPV? I see it quite frequently. See okay. So I'm special but I'm not like so special that I have to become a case study. Right, right. Cool. I appreciate that. Yeah. No case studies. Really glad. But the thing that was so hard for me when I was going through this and I cried in your office and you're like, oh gosh, Morgan, it'll be okay. We got this. But what was so terrifying for me was not the treatment, not the maneuvers you were doing, nothing like that. It was, I'm going to have to deal with this for the rest of my life. Because once you've had it, you're likely to get it again. When I first walked into your office for the very first time ever, February of 2024, we were like, okay, this potentially came from a bounce fitness class. And this may never happen again. Hopefully this is it.

It's one time. And 10 years from now, maybe, we're hoping it was a one-off. And fast forward to this year, 2025, and it happens again. And I was like, no, this means it's going to happen more. And I do not want this in my life. And so I was having this huge panic, which I think anybody who deals, one with a chronic illness, one with an invisible illness, three, with a debilitating illness that people don't understand.

on any of those levels, you feel just overwhelmed with what your life is going to be like indefinitely. And so when I was sitting in there and I was crying, you're like, oh, no, like, we're going to treat this. I was like, no, no, no, this is not you. This is like me realizing that my body's kind of betrayed me and I now have to do this all the time to get better and it's so debilitating. It is. Yeah. Do you see a lot of your patients come in and they have this kind of same experience where it's like, is this for real? This is what I'm going to have to keep dealing with? One of the number one questions that I hear is how do I prevent it from happening again? And there's a really bad joke in the vestibular world that we say that's job security for us. There is no way

to prevent it. Things like high intensity aerobic activity, which is probably what happened to you in the first place. You were at the bounce class. So a lot of impact on the floor probably made those crystals come loose. But other things like going into surgery and then being sedentary for a while, going to the dentist, going back and getting your hair done, things like that can also make BPPV reoccur. And can they also be the reason it starts? Like all of those things you just mentioned? Absolutely. Yeah. So usually it's idiopathic, but also a large majority of BPPV patients come in post concussion or a hit to the head or even like a whiplash injury post car accident so usually like my younger patients are going to have some sort of blow to the head but when i came in you're like oh he did a

fitness class what is happening yours was a high intensity aerobic fitness class that likely made it happen oh my gosh and see that's what's so crazy about it and when i talk to people and they're like you're good now i'm like i'm good until it chooses to happen again and that's what's so scary because it can happen again and it can happen, you have no warning. You have no way of preventing it. Just like you said, it's just, and then you're knocked out. Like when it first happens to me, I am stuck in my bed for three days, waiting until whatever the moment of the episode started subsides to then start trying to heal. And that's what's so scary about BPPB and vertigo itself. But like, that experience that I had where it was like, again, we're not sitting there and I was like, oh my gosh, I could be driving, I could be on a road trip,

I could be miles away from Holly, I could be getting married and I literally could have like this vertigo episode happen. And that experience was just everything came washing over me in that moment where I was like, this is now my life. And now I'm like on this mission to be like, how can I get the healthiest I've ever been in the potential that it somehow impacts this is the goal, right? Like, I just hope that I inadvertently do something to help it. Yeah, and there's really, truly nothing out there that is proven to help prevent it, except potentially vitamin D levels. So we do have our patients get their vitamin D levels checked because if you're on the lower

side, it can lead to recurrence. But other than that, there's no special diet. There's no, we don't tell you to give up coffee or alcohol. There's nothing from, that's, food related that will help prevent it from happening or from occurring in the first place. And that's what I see a lot because the internet is a dangerous place. It is. And you see a lot of things of, okay, I went gluten free and my vertigo stopped.

Or you see someone who goes, I went to a chiropractor. I've never had issues again. These kind of gambit of things. But like truly medical sense, is any of that proven? Or is it just like potentially happenstance that those connected? I think we need to realize that vertigo is not just BPPV. Vertigo can come from a multitude of vestibular diagnoses that actually create the same room spinning symptoms. It's not always super, super easy to treat, which BPPV is, but other things like vestibular migraines or a vestibular neuritis, which is a weakness of the inner ear, they actually create the same symptoms that.

Positional Vertigo does. What's up, everyone? I'm Ago Wodom. My next guest, you know from Stepbrothers, Anchorman, Saturday Night Live, and the Big Money Players Network. It's Will Ferrell. Woo, woo, woo, woo. My dad gave me the best advice ever. I went and had lunch with them one day, and I was like, and dad, I think I want to really give this a shot.

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I don't care what you're saying. Yep, that's me, Cliver Taylor the 4th. You might have seen the skits, the reactions, my journey from basketball to college football, or my career in sports media. Well, somewhere along the way, this platform became bigger than I ever imagined. And now I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brand new podcast, The Clifford Show. This is a place for raw, unfiltered conversations with some of your favorite athletes, creators, and voices that not only deserve to be heard, but celebrated.

One week, I'll take you behind the scenes of the biggest moments in sports and entertainment, and the next we'll talk about life, mental health, purpose, and even music. The Clifford Show isn't just a podcast. It's a space for honest conversations, stories that don't always get told, and for people who are chasing something bigger. So if you've ever supported me or you're just chasing down a dream, this is right where you need to be. Listen to the Clifford show on the IHeart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more behind the scenes, follow at Clifford and at TikTok Podcast Network on TikTok.

This week on the Sports Slice podcast, it's all about the NFL draft. And we've got a special guest. The director of the NFL's East West Shrine Bowl, Eric Galco, joins the Sports Slice podcast to break down what really matters when evaluating draft prospects, from hidden traits teams look for to the biggest mistakes franchises make to the players flying under the radar. This is the insight you won't hear anywhere else. If you want to understand the draft like an insider, you don't want to miss this episode. Listen to the Sports Slice Podcast on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, for wherever you get your podcast. And for more, follow Timbo Slica Life 12 and TikTok podcast network on TikTok.

talk. Okay, so when people are having these experiences of things helping them, it's likely that something else is going on that those helped them. But BPPV itself, if you just have like me, potentially, we're still working through my understanding of what the heck is going on in my anatomy. But say I just end up having BPPV, there is nothing besides the potential of vitamin D levels that I could do that would prevent. it from happening. Right. That's correct. And you're so young, it's likely going to happen again. And I do. I've heard of a lot of people who get this. This is the craziest part to me. Because when this first happened and I found out about you and you were treating me and I was

slowly getting better, there were so many people that reached out and they were like, I live with this every day for months on end. And they get a little bit better because that's the process of vertigo, which also you taught me that vertigo itself is just, the symptom and then you have the diagnosis. So just like you're mentioning, vertigo can be caused by multitude of different things, but what I'm aligning here with is the BPPV, which is my diagnosis.

That's correct. You are, you're special. And I say that in a way that your system is actually really sensitive to the BPPV. So not everyone that comes to me has to be in bed for three days. There are people that actually still are able to get up and go to work and function no problem at all. But that is because their BPPV is not as what I call robust as yours.

So it's likely that the crystals are either really small. So they range from three microns to 30 microns. Wow. That's really tiny. Which you also told me you can't even see them on. Yeah. You can't pull them out and see them under a microscope. No, they're so small.

So if you, let's say you have a cluster of three size three microns. otoconia that are going through your canals, your eye movements and your symptoms are not going to be as intense as if the otoconia are sized 30 microns and they're moving fast through the canals. So that's going to create a much more intense situation. So it's not always going to make people vomit and make them sick to their stomach or make them miss work. But in your case, you're just one of the lucky ones and you've had really good bouts. Yeah, really, really lovely bounce. I'm so lucky. Yeah. So when we talk about this though and people hear like they'll have a dizziness spell. Is that potentially vertigo or is it like dizziness and vertigo are separated? Because I was having

this conversation with somebody online and she was like, if you get motion sickness and then you have dizziness, it can be connected to vertigo. Is that all intertwined or are they kind of separate entities? Dizziness is an umbrella term. So dizziness is usually used to describe swimming-headed, light-headed feelings, whereas vertigo is actually the room spinning. But also, you can have vertigo where people say they're spinning within their own head.

And so that can happen as well. Okay. But no, disdiness is the umbrella term and then vertigo usually fits underneath that. Okay, but specifically if somebody's having a vertigo episode, typically the world is spinning. Typically. versus like you're just like a little bit nauseous, queasy, lightheaded as kind of the dizziness experience.

Is motion sickness vertigo connected at all? Is there some, because that's an internet thing where it's like, if you get motion sickness in the car or you get motion sickness on rides, which I've had my entire life and I never had vertigo until now, are those connected at all? Is there something to that? Motion sickness is not connected to BPPV in particular. Okay. I know that there's no connection. I know it's a thing but like I'm when I was going through this experience and I'm going online searching for all kinds of answers I'm just trying to find anything to understand what's happening to me because when it does happen to you you're terrified and you're like all I know is the world just went spinning and I can't move my body upright and you're like what does that mean and you Google and you have vertigo and then

I'm like what the heck is vertigo and you just go down this rabbit hole of trying to understand what's happening to your body because in my day-to-day life My entire life, there's only one person, a good friend of mine, who actually has some hearing loss, and she has vertigo. She's the only person I've ever known in my life that has had it, or at least that's talked about having it. But of course, now that I talk about it, everyone has it. Yeah, usually if you mention it to one person, they're like, oh, my mom had it, my sister had it, my aunt had it. And it may or may not have been BPPV, but still they're describing as vertigo. So people who do have potentially like this room spinning vertigo BPPV, do they have to live with it?

Like you see so many often that people are like, I live with this for my entire life and I'll have an episode and then it gets a little bit better and then it'll happen again. Because to my understanding, you've gotten me to 100% again twice and ever since like only when I'm having those episodes am I living with it. Once the episode has cleared, as you call it, it's over. It's supposed to be over. You're not supposed to have any, no underline, it's gone. Am I right in that? Yes.

Okay, let's say that you would have never found me. Chances are high that in a couple weeks it probably would have resolved on its own. Probably. So we don't know if the crystals are reabsorbed by the body or if they're put back in the utricle where they belong. We don't know. But it generally does resolve on its own

after a period of time. I will say that last week I saw a patient, and she was in a car accident eight years ago. She has never seen a physician for her room spinning vertigo, and she just now got to me. Eight years. And I put her through all the testing positions, and sure enough, it was straightforward posterior canal, what we call canola letheesis. So those otoconia, those little crystals, were just hanging out in the canal, and I cleared

her in one session. And now she doesn't have any episodes of this. At least until it happens again. Wow. But she dealt with it for eight years. And we cleared it in one session. See, it's so crazy because I hear this of so many people who write me and are like, yeah, I deal with this.

And I'm just like, you're not supposed to. You're really not. Like you're supposed to be able to do these maneuvers and get the treatment. And then your life is supposed to go back until, of course, another episode happens. And it may not happen. So it could happen again tomorrow. It could clear and happen in two weeks. I had a patient today that it cleared for 25 years.

And then it just came back. And then it came back. It always comes back with a vengeance too. It just is, hey, honey, I'm home. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. I'm back.

That's what's so wild too about Vertigo, BPPV. There's just, you guys are the specialists in it. But there's still so much unknown about how it exists. It's true. What's that experience like for you where like you're just, in this field that's constantly evolving because you don't have every single detail truly to understand what's happening. I feel so honored to be a part of it. We do a lot of research at Vanderbilt and we're trying to add to the literature and help figure out all of these answers,

but you're right, there's just so much that is unknown. I will say there are some studies going on, I believe overseas that they're working on medication. It's in very, early stages, but they're trying to find answers and some, we're trying to find the magic pill, right? That's what everyone who comes to physical therapy wants. They want that magic pill. They don't want me to put them through the maneuvers that make them sick and vomit and they just want that magic pill and hopefully when they will have that. But until then, it's just, I'm kind of your best. It is. And it is crazy. You say that about the maneuvers because every time I did have a treatment with you, I would get better.

But I don't know also that people understand that when you do the maneuvers, even if you're doing like the epa at home, you're inducing the vertical. You're moving the crystals around. Right. So it's, you're literally what you are trying to avoid happening, you're doing. You're moving you in the positions to try and get them to move back to where they're supposed to be. And every time I would get done with one of our sessions and like, I'm out for the count.

I'll see you guys tomorrow. I'll get better. That was just so crazy to people because it's like, you went to an appointment. me, you're supposed to be better? I'm like, no, I will. But it's just a little bit different of how that works. Yeah. And do you remember one of the number one things I told you? So we encourage movement. We don't want you to avoid any positions, except for right after the repositioning. Then we want you to stay pretty still for a short period of time. But we don't want you to be fearful. We don't want you to not roll on your right side. We don't, we don't want you to be scared to get up out of bed. So we

encourage movement. And it's important for the inner ear. Yeah. And what's funny is there was a moment because, again, when I was going through all these moments, like I had to you, but I still had the internet and I was still trying to figure out what was happening. And I was like, I'm going to get a neck brace. You're like, do not get a neck brace. Yeah. We used to give neck braces out like 20 years ago, but it's no longer practiced because again, like that's encouraging the fearful avoidant behavior that we discourage. And there is also the side of the side of the side of the way. And there is also the side of this, like that I also didn't realize when it first happened because it was all first experience. Everything was new to me. But going through it a second time, my body has PTSD from this

experience where I'm like doing a movement. I'm like, okay, we're going to go spinning. Be prepared. And it doesn't. But my body's anticipating almost like it's like a placebo is happening where my body thinks it's spinning, but it's not really. That's another side to this. too. Okay, you heal the episode, but your body is still storing everything that happened to you. How it goes back to the body keeps its score, but your body is like still in the movement. And you've had to help me on that side of things too, and that gets into more of the physical therapy. So can you share your little expertise on that side too? Yeah. So when you have, okay, let's say, I can't remember what your exact symptoms were, but let's say every time you roll on your right side,

the room goes crazy. So then your brain actually gets so, used to it that after we clear out the mechanical reason for the vertigo, so the crystals, when you roll on your right side, the brain actually thinks that you're going to spin. But again, there's no mechanical reason. And so you don't truly spin. But that's that kind of PTSD that you're talking about. And maybe that's not the right word, but it feels that way in my body. That's a good description.

It's like a lingering or, okay, my body's still dealing with the trauma of whatever happens. Like, here we go. and we had to retrain my body this last time to literally roll over on its side. Because every time I rolled over, I was like, I think I'm having an episode. You're like, you're not. You're cleared. But okay. We have to retrain your body to understand that you're okay and you're safe, like in your own body again.

And so I would have you do it 10 times. And the head shake, I have to stare at an X on the wall and just shake my head back and forth while staring at it. I'm like, I would do them at work. And everybody's like, what are you doing? I'm like, don't worry about it. Don't worry about it. I'm trying to get better.

And you also, you also had light sensitivity too. So you would have to wear Therispect glasses. Yes, which also saved my life. Turned into a partnership with them too. They're amazing. Yeah, like shout out Code Morgan. You can use it. You can get $15 off.

But they were so helpful because when I was having my episodes and they were so intense and I had to go to work because I can't take a month and a half off work every time this happens. The Therispects allowed me to be in very lit rooms, much like the, podcast room where we have lights. And so those Thursdays were like dimmed them up. And I was wearing them on the podcast too because it dimmed everything around me. Yeah. What is that technology of like why you guys use those when people have the light sensitivity?

Because people are asking them, I don't know. I just know they helped. I know just enough about this to tell you. You actually have the rose color lenses and they block out 25 times more of whatever it is they block out than blue light. Okay. So I can tell you that. And now I can tell you that.

again, shout out their respect, like they have all different color lenses that, you know, if you've got sensitivity to sunlight, you may need this color lens, or if you have sensitivity to fluorescent lights, you need this color lens. They can be really helpful. And this is also something that I newly learned was how connected my eyes were to my balance and inner ears, which was why I was light sensitive because I wasn't before, but because I was going through this, like all of that connects in there. Right?

Am I making that up in my head? Yeah. So I have to be able to see your eyes in order to tell where the crystals are in the canals. So again, if let's say they beat, there's like an upbeat, that means posterior canal, downbeat, anterior canal. So things like that. So yeah, they're a window to the inner ear. So crazy.

It reminds you how connected everything is, no different how like your skin is your biggest organ. Yeah. You put stuff on that. It's absorbed in your body. It's all of that. And I'm learning all of this. And I'm just like, oh, it really is all connected. And holy crap, this sucks.

But here we are. Gosh, when you have an episode, it really is horrendous. But what I tell my patience is that when you've had it once, you now know what it is. And it's going to be less scary the next time around because you know that there is a quick fix. Yes. And that was exactly what happened the second time. I knew exactly what to do. I need to call you right away.

Literally. Yeah. I was like, Holly, I need help. This happened again. But I also knew. So the second time it happened, I was like, okay, this is vertigo. I knew that I was about to have this experience. It didn't make it any less easy.

Like I was still like, couldn't get out of bed. I still was like literally laying naked on the bathroom floor. Oh my God, I'm sweating. This is painful and not in the way that you think. But painful, like my body is just like going through it. But I knew that I needed you to do these maneuvers and to understand what was happening. So it was a at least easier. process than me having zero information, which is why the podcast was so important, because there's so

many people out here that are dealing with this. What's up, everyone? I'm Ago Wodom. My next guest, you know from Step Brothers Anchorman, Saturday Night Live and the Big Money Players Network. It's Will Ferrell. My dad gave me the best advice ever. I went and had lunch with him one day, and I was like, And dad, I think I want to really give this a shot. I don't know what that means, but I just know the groundlings. I'm working my way up through, and I know it's a place that come look for up and coming talent. He said, if it was based solely on talent, I wouldn't worry about you, which is really sweet.

Yeah. He goes, but there's so much luck involved. And he's like, just give it a shot. He goes, but if you ever reach a point where you're banging your head against the wall and it doesn't feel fun anymore, it's okay to quit. If you saw it written down, it would not be an inspiration. be on a calendar of, you know, the cat. Just hang in there. Yeah, it would not be.

Right, it wouldn't be that. There's a lot of luck. Listen to Thanks, Dad, on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. A win is a win. A win is a win. I don't care what I'm saying. Yep, that's me, Cliver Taylor the 4th. You might have seen the skits, the reactions, my journey from basketball to college football,

or my career in sports media. Well, somewhere along the way, this platform became bigger than I ever imagined. And now I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brand new podcast, The Clifford Show. This is a place for raw, unfiltered conversations with some of your favorite athletes, creators, and voices

that not only deserve to be heard, but celebrated. One week, I'll take you behind the scenes of the biggest moments in sports and entertainment, and the next we'll talk about life, mental health, purpose, and even music. The Clifford Show isn't just a podcast. It's a space. for honest conversations, stories that don't always get told,

and for people who are chasing something bigger. So, if you've ever supported me, or you're just chasing down a dream, this is right what you need to be. Listen to The Clifford Show on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more behind the scenes, follow at Clifford and at TikTok Podcast Network on TikTok. This week on the Sports Slice podcast, it's all about the NFL draft,

and we've got a special guest, The director of the NFL's East West Shrine Bowl, Eric Galco, joins the Sports Slice podcast to break down what really matters when evaluating draft prospects. From hidden traits teams look for to the biggest mistakes franchises make to the players flying under the radar, this is the insight you won't hear anywhere else.

If you want to understand the draft like an insider, you don't want to miss this episode. Listen to the Sports Slice podcast on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more, follow Timbo Slica Life 12. and TikTok Podcast Network on TikTok. So, and speaking of all of these people, there were some people that put in some questions.

And we've talked about some of them, but we'll have you reiterate because they asked the question. One lady says she has a patient with Meneers who has tried everything. Any suggestions to potentially help her? And that's the only context I have, so I have no idea what all they tried. But I don't know if this is anything you can help with.

So Meneers, it can also present with vertigo. It can present with dizziness, balance impairment, all of the vestibular symptoms. But the repositioning maneuvers that take it away immediately aren't going to work. So we always start with diet and lifestyle modifications for Meneers. So you really want to decrease the salt intake and decrease the fluid behind the ear. that's where we start and then you need a good vestibular therapist that actually knows what meneers is and also a lot of times patients are misdiagnosed as well a lot of times patients come in with a diagnosis of meneers and it's actually vestibular migraines so so what is the similarities

tell me what each one is to you in your like expert opinion they just share a lot of the same symptoms okay is the problem so i'm thinking vestibular migraines are like very intense headaches, like very painful. And maybe you have some lightheadedess, dizziness with it. Meneers, if I remember my research correctly, is like you have like something's happening within your ear anatomy that's causing the vertigo to happen. Is that correct? Am I?

Yes. Yes. So, there's a lot of fluid going on behind the ears. One day the person can walk down the hallway just fine. and the following day they can have an attack and literally be falling into the walls. It's a wild presentation. Vestibular migraine is very different in the fact that you actually, I believe it's greater than 60% don't actually have the headache component.

Interesting. You just have the vestibular symptoms. You can have the visual auras and all of that, but there's actually no pain. So that's why it goes misdiagnosed a lot. Wow. Okay, that's super interesting because I associate migraine with headache, pain, because migraine is just like an amplified headache to my understanding. Yeah.

So when you said that, I was like, oh, yeah, that's what's, that's crazy. Okay, so hopefully that's some helpful things. Maybe you guys have it, but again, I don't have any other context, like what all I've tried and what all they've done. I would say in that case, just find your nearest vestibular PT. Okay. Yeah. That's good information.

Yeah. Can stress cause vertigo to flare up? not from a crystal standpoint. Okay. So it can, it is one of the triggers for say vestibular migraine. So a lot of times patients will have to be medically managed with medications, things like that because they can't avoid the stress of a really hard job or their in-laws moved into their home.

So things like that. It can trigger symptoms of dizziness. Absolutely. But it will, it's not connected. to BPP. Okay. See, and this is crazy about just all these different areas is like there can be so much happening in there. And you really need someone like a Holly to understand the anatomy and what's going on in there because it can go so misdiagnosed on multiple levels to your point, like not just meneers, but all of them. At least this is how it's sounding to me. Why does Vertigo benign

happened out of nowhere during perimenopause for some people. Do you know any connection to that? Great question. We are still looking into that. So we know that hormones are, they have an effect on the vestibular system, but we just, we don't know enough. See, that's so crazy. Yeah.

But it is connected. There is something that's happening with. We think so. Okay. I can't completely be sure yet. Yeah. And also you've got to think, though, the average person, the initial onset of BPPV is from,

age 50 to 70. And paramedopause is happening around there? So is it just coincidence or is there actually a connection? Wow. Okay. And that's also hard if you're experiencing both at the same time. Gosh, I know. My sweet ladies. I know. That hurts. Do some exercises, which we touched on this, but do some exercises such as burpees or handstands bring on vertigo? So they can. They absolutely can. High intensity the aerobic workouts, kind of like a similar blow to the head, can make the crystals come loose. Now, again, Maureen, you are a bit of a special one. I just generally don't see it in someone as young as you, but that we made that direct connection. You went to that class, you woke up the next morning.

It was hard to not be able to connect those two. Yeah, and because I then did that and knocked it loose, I was more likely for it to happen again. Yeah, that was that connection. Correct. Stupid trampoline class. Don't work out. That's what I've learned in all this. Don't work out.

No cardio. Meanwhile, I'm over here. I'm doing like, hey, workouts and stuff still. I know, I know. Welcome to my life. Yeah. But what you have also always told me is you can't be fearful and you can't live your life and fear of it happening.

Yeah. Because this is something so important to say, and I want you to say it in your own words, but like, it's going to happen no matter what. Yeah. So whether you are. sitting on the couch or you are out having fun with your friends and living your life, if those crystals come loose, they come loose. It's going to happen whether you like it or not. Yeah. And that was an important thing for you to tell me because that made me not fearful because it

didn't matter what I was doing. Yes, things like hit workouts could potentially aggravate and make it happen quicker. But you telling me that was like, okay, this happening regardless, I can go out and have my life. And it'll be fine. It's going to happen regardless, so I might as well enjoy what I can do in the moment. Yeah, and we don't know who it's going to happen to. So just because your mom had it or your aunt had it, it doesn't mean that you're going to have it. It's not genetic either.

It's not. Which was an important detail. You also told me because nobody in my family ever had it. And you were like, yeah, it's not. You're just, you get picked out of the litter. You're just one of the lucky ones. Yeah. We were meant to be friends.

That's why. We were. That's exactly why I was supposed to. happen. Okay. And some of these other ones came in here, but they're funny. I'll make you laugh. Yes, why? Like, why does this happen? We don't know. We're learning about our systems and everything. It's true. Then another one was, why does my vestibular system hate me? Girl with Menhers. Oh. So maybe you can give her some words of wisdom or some, something to make her feel better because you made me feel better in a lot of hard moments for me. So with any vestibular diagnoses, life gets better.

you just have to have the right treatment. And it's so, for me as a vestibular specialist, it's so frustrating when patients come in, like this sweet girl, I can help you. Like we, my colleagues,

we can help you. There's treatment. We can make you live a normal life. We can make you have fun again and not be fearful. Yeah. There is treatment. Yeah. There's not a magic pill.

It's a little bit of work. BPPV is a quick fix. We love BPPV. one quick maneuver. You say we. I don't. Yeah. And also it's not quick for me.

So don't look at me. So as a vestibular therapist, we love BPPB. It's super straightforward. It's, again, you come in with these positional changes. We do a quick maneuver and you're done. Other diagnoses like vestibular hypo functions, weaknesses, mirrors, vestibular migrants, they require a little bit of work. A lot of homework, actually.

Yeah. And it sounds like some of them come with lifestyle changes, which is some of the hard. this illness is to deal with. And migraine, I'm sorry, diet and things like that. Changing things in your entire life. Whereas mine, I just have to come in and you have to keep working me through treatment. And then one day it'll be over and until the next time kind of thing.

I do understand that side of it too. And this is another one we had already answered, but he had asked, how do I get rid of reoccurring BPP, although mild, sometimes I'm just tired of it. I understand. How do you get rid of it? You come see me. You get treatment. Yeah.

Isn't it also possible too because this was something I had to learn like just going to a regular physical therapist, although incredibly helpful in so many scenarios, I had gone to one and the only maneuver he knew was Epley. And for me specifically, Epley was not going to help me. Yeah. Sometimes the modified Epley just doesn't work. And in your case, it just isn't the magic ticket. So I think we, I think we tried the Lee maneuver on you, the Smont. There were a couple different things. But again, it's not always posterior.

interior. So if you go to a general orthopedic physical therapist and they put you in the testing positions, they may not have the equipment that I have. Specifically, I have these video goggles. They help me see your eyes without letting your brain fixate. So if your eyes can fixate on something, your brain can shut down the nistagmus or the eye movement that I'm looking for. And that helps us with diagnosis. And if you go to an orthopedic, PT, they may not have a lot. They may not have a that specialty equipment and then they may not be able to see what they need to see and they won't be able to treat you. Which that was so helpful for you in understanding which maneuvers you had to do on me and not just having the one repertoire of Epley, you needed multiple, which was so important. And again,

that was a part of my learning journey because I had somebody do an Epley maneuver on me and I was like, I'm not better. Okay, you guys are all lying on the internet. I feel like crap. And your canals converted to. So you were again like one canal and then it converted to another and so we had to switch it up. And how often like I know you say I'm special, but that's not just me. There's a lot of people out there that have those experiences and they could be seeing the things online that we're like, we can do this and this will work. When in reality, like it always helps to have an expert like a holly. If you're not in Nashville or around Nashville, find a vestibular specialist. That is the key to looking for. Right. Like it's true. To finding a you somewhere else. Yeah, you can give it a shot at home by yourself. So you can look up the modified epil online and 50-50 guess the correct side and try to treat yourself. The problem with treating yourself is that you can actually make it a little bit worse. Which is what I did. And it.

So if you make it worse, it can actually convert to a more difficult canal like the horizontal canal. And even worse than that, the crystals can actually go from the canal to the cupula. which is a jelly-like material where the crystals get stuck. And then what do you have to do when something is stuck? You have to knock it loose. So then we've got to knock out the crystals and then clear them from the canal. Which I also had experience with as well. And you called the cupula jelly-like substance.

So I really used a lot of normal people terms like Rocky Wall and jelly-like substance and crystals. And those are not the medical terms. Yeah. No, but that's what we use. That's how I describe it. like in the utricule in that balance organ where the otoconia sit, it is just this really rocky wall.

And that's where they come off. They just fall right off. But honestly, when you were using all of those, it gave me the best understanding of what was happening to me. Because a wushes. Wush is my favorite word. Yeah, you do love to use wishes. And I had a lot of those.

So I'd be like, Holly, I'm having a wush. Yeah. Like, that's not normal. Okay, let's figure this out. And that was an easy way to also describe it. Yeah. But it did because it, and it was funny when we talked about it on the show, everybody was, you're talking about crystals.

This is so like woo stuff. I'm like, no, you all have them. I'm just the only one that's actually dealing with them. That's true. So everyone has them. They are, so you've got two, two balanced organs on each side. So you have a utricle and a sacriol on both the right and the left side. And so you've got your three semicircular canals.

Let's say we're talking about the right side. And the utricle sits like this. The sacule sits like this. So you've got crystals in here. and in here, but the utricle blocks the saccule. So the crystals are only going to come out from here into the canals, which is where the maneuvers come into play. And that's why I get rotated like, I'm a ski row on a grill.

Barbecue roll. Because you're literally moving those crystals through these canals in the ways that they can be moved. That's correct. Because if you do it the wrong way, they're not going to move. They're going to go into that jelly-like substance. Which was not fun. Let me tell you, that was probably the worst experience.

I literally looked at Holly as like, I'm going to vomit. I think you did get sick, actually. I think I did. Which happens from time to time. Usually I can catch it, but it just happened. Yeah, and to Holly's credit, and Vanderbilt is so awesome. They not only had a, what is Norman called? Oh, our facility dog, Norman.

Yeah, he's a service dog, right? Yeah, we love Norman. Yeah, so I had a service dog with me in so many of these treatments. But then on top of that, like when I'd get super sweaty, being induced with the vertigo, They'd come in and they just like weigh me down with all of these packs of mine. It's true. Yeah, because it helps with nausea. Oh, it's a magic trick.

Okay. Talk about though the magic trick that is the rubbing alcohol by the nose. Okay. Yeah, same. It's like the same as an ice pack. So it has an effect on you and it decreases the nausea. So you just get a little like piece of paper and you put rubbing alcohol. Is that what it is?

We have the little rubbing alcohol pads. Okay. And you just pull out a pad. Yeah. I just held it up against your nose. And it stopped the nausea from coming. Can that happen with all kinds of nausea or just specifically related to this? Yeah, absolutely.

That's so crazy. I learned about that too. See all the things that I learned in this experience? And ice packs. So ice packs are my go-to and then I use the rubbing alcohol. Yeah, because the ice packs do feel really good. Because your body is like heating up. It's like you're kind of like a core and it's going to explode.

You get super clammy and sweaty. And again, people do get sick, which is. Yeah. You guys sent me home with one of those throw-up. Yeah, we did. I'm pretty sure it's still in my car. I'm like, if somebody ever sees this, they're going to be like, well, what is wrong with this woman? Yeah, it's fine, just in case.

It's so interesting to me, though. Some patients come in with a lot of nausea, and they're super, super sensitive to the maneuvers like you. And then other patients that come in, they just have zero nausea, zero complaints while I'm doing it, and then they just run on their way. It's fascinating to me that everyone's system is so different. I do wonder too if there's a connection for me in that because I have like growing up I've always gotten

I this is why I hate roller coasters they make me so ill so ill but also I hate the drop that you get in your belly but more than that like I get literally violently ill and I get car sickness I get sick on boats I've had always had a this dizziness and like whenever I've gotten sick just a freaking calm and cold I have nausea or I have lightheadedness also I think about in the course and like if I ever were to have a child and I'm going to be freaking sick all the time. Yeah. So I think about those because this is my symptom of anything is, oh, you're going to be vomiting. You got a little stuff who knows vomit. That's just my life. And so I do wonder if you have sensitivity in your life, then like something like this happens and all it does is, yeah, maybe. It has to because not everybody

feels that way in all of those experiences, right? Right. No, it's true. So then you get two different people with vertigo, one like me and one that doesn't. And they're like, no, it's fine. It's where my body's like, yeah, no, we hate this. We're good. Systems are so weird, which is also why I wanted to bring you on and just talk about just the craziness of all of this. So many people deal with it. You don't have to be alone in dealing with it.

You can also get treatment. Like you don't have to live with this. And I think that's the take home of today. And that's what you and I wanted to get across to everyone is like there is hope. There is an answer. There is treatment. And there's in BPPV alone. specifically, there's quick treatment.

You just have to go to the right therapist. Not all physical therapists are created equal. Just like I said earlier, you're not going to come to me for me to fix your shoulder. Yeah. It's a very specific thing. So the thing that we always do, I leave on this podcast is like whether it be a piece of advice and motivation and that might have just been it. We might just had our closure.

Was there anything that we haven't talked about that you wanted to make sure you've shared in this whole kind of experience of our friendship and. vertigo treatment. I think it's important to me as a vestibular specialist that all my patients know that they don't have to be scared. And like you said, they're not alone. So many people suffer from vestibular diagnoses and illnesses, but there's treatment. And you have to find the right therapist.

So I just kind of want to give like a little shout out. If you are watching this podcast and you don't know where to go, there is a website called APTA. And if you type an APTA vestibular map of providers, then it's going to pop up all the states and all the vestibular providers that are part of the APTA. So American Physical Therapy Association. So that's a really easy way to find a therapist that specializes in Vertigo. Or you can come to Vanderbilt and see me. And my colleagues. We are at Pipea to Fire Rehab, and we love what we do.

Which you should absolutely see Holly and her colleagues. If you are in the area, but if you're not, dang, that tool is awesome. I didn't know that existed. It's the best resource. And so I just really want everyone to know that you don't have to come eight hours to see us. They're a vestibular specialist all over the country. Yeah. Oh, Holly, you did so good.

I know you were nervous about doing this, but we did so great. Yeah. And I appreciate you coming on and like sharing. all of your wisdom and expertise because as much as you I don't want to admit it, you are an expert in what you're doing. Thank you. You're doing like the work that matters and you're changing people's lives. That's really sweet. I love what I do. It makes me happy every day. Yay. Thank you for coming on. I appreciate it. Thanks. So many takeaways during this episode. Our health is such a huge part of our lives. And BPPV is debilitating in something I would not wish on anyone. So if you're a fellow sufferer or any

impacted by Vertigo. I hope this episode helps you find some very deserved relief. Thank you all for being here. And as always, I love you. I'll talk to you next week. A win is a win. A win is a win. I don't care what I'm saying. Yep, that's me, Cliver Taylor the 4th. You might have seen the skits, my basketball and college football journey, or my career in sports media. Well, now I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brand new podcast, The Cliver Show. This is a place for raw, unfilled conversations with athletes, creators, and voices that not only deserve to be heard, but celebrated. So let's get to it.

Listen to the Clifford Show on the IHeard Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more behind the scenes, follow at Clifford and at TikTok podcast network on TikTok. This week on the Sports Slice podcast, it's all about the NFL draft. And we've got a special guest. The director of the NFL's East West Shrine Bowl,

Eric Galko, joins the Sports Slice podcast to break down what really matters when evaluating draft prospects. From hidden traits teams look for to the biggest mistakes franchises make to the players flying under the radar, this is the insight you won't hear anywhere else. If you want to understand the draft like an insider,

you don't want to miss this episode. Listen to the Sports Slice podcast on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more, follow Timbo Slica Life 12 and TikTok podcast network on TikTok. In 2023, Bachelor star Clayton Eckerd was accused of fathering twins. But the pregnancy appeared to be a hoax.

You doctored this particular test twice, Ms. Owens, correct? I doctored the test ones. It took an army of internet detectives to uncover a disturbing pattern. Two more men who'd been through the same thing. Greg, a lesbian. Michael Mancini. My mind was blown. I'm Stephanie Young.

This is love trapped. Laura, Scottsdale Police. As the season continues, Laura Owens finally faces consequences. Listen to Love Trapped podcast on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is an IHeart podcast. Guaranteed human.