The Bobby Bones Show - TAKE THIS PERSONALLY: Friendship Just As Important As Romance: Rethinking Connections, Community & Living

Episode Date: December 14, 2025

Rhaina Cohen (author of The Other Significant Others) joins us to reframe how we think about friendship: past, present, and possible futures. Rhaina explains why intense platonic bonds once held public, ritualized importance (think “sworn brotherhoods” and romantic friendships of the 17th–19th centuries), how marriage’s role shifted to demand emotional everything-ness, and why that cultural shift squeezed out space for friendships. What you'll get out of this episode: The friendship that inspired Rhaina's book Historical models of deep same-sex friendship and how they differ from modern assumptions Why modern romantic relationships often eclipse friendship and why that harms us Real-life choices Rhaina and her husband made (communal living, prioritizing friends) and practical tips to preserve friendships How to be a better friend: rituals, calendars, play, and honest conversation Handling jealousy and myths about opposite-sex friendships If you want to build stronger platonic connections, rethink where you live and who you share life with, or simply appreciate how friendship can anchor a life, this episode is for you. 📕 Get The Other Significant Others on Amazon 📲 Follow Rhaina Cohen on social media: @rhainacohen 📲 Follow the podcast: @takethispersonallySee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an I-Heart podcast. Guaranteed human. A win is a win. A win is a win. I don't care what you're saying. Yep, that's me. Clivert Taylor the 4th. You might have seen the skits,

my basketball and college football journey, or my career in sports media. Well, now I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brand new podcast, The Clifers Show. This is a place for raw, unfills of conversations with athletes, creators, and voices that not only deserve to be heard, but celebrated.

So let's get to it. Listen to the. the Clifford show on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more behind the scenes, follow at Clifford and at TikTok podcast network on TikTok. Hey, I'm Dr. Maya Shunker, a cognitive scientist and hosts of the podcast, a slight change of plans, a show about who we are and who we become when life makes other plans. I wish that I hadn't resisted for so long the need to change. We have to be willing to live with a kind of uncertainty that none of us.

You can have opinions. You can have like a strong stance. And then there's your body having its own program. Listen to a slight change of plans on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. On a recent episode of the podcast Money and Wealth with John Ho Bryant, I sit down with Tiffany the budgetista Aliche to talk about what it really takes to take control of your money. What would that look like in our families if everyone was able to pass on wealth to the people when they're no longer here? We break down budgeting, financial discipline, and how to build real wealth, starting with the mindset shifts. Too many of us were never, ever taught. If you've ever felt you didn't get the memo on money, this conversation is for you to hear more. Listen to Money and Wealth with John Hope Bryant from the Black Effect Network on the I'd Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get.

Kid, your podcast. Hi, everyone. I'm Cheryl Strayed, author of Wild and Tiny Beautiful Things. I'm excited to share that I have a new podcast called Mind Over Mountain. In each episode, I interview athletes, adventurers, and adrenaline seekers to discuss the inner landscapes that informed and inspired their extraordinary feats. So we, too, can better understand how to face our own seemingly insurmountable challenges. Listen to Mind Over Mountain every Thursday on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts,

or wherever you get your podcast. I'm Anna Navarro, and on my new podcast, Bleep with Anna Navarro. I'm talking to the people closest to the biggest issues happening in your community and around the world. Because I know deep down inside right now, we are all cursing and asking what the bleep is going on. Every week I'm breaking down the biggest issues

happening in our communities and around the world. I'm talking to people like Julie K. Brown, who broke the explosive story on Jeffrey Epstein in 2018. The Justice Department through, we counted four presidential administrations, failed these victims. Listen to Bleep with Anna Navarro on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Last week I was talking to therapist Amanda White all about social media and the impacts it's been having on our real lives, including in our friendships and how we're interacting or lack thereof within our own communities. So I'm giving a totally opposite perspective this week with Raina Cohen. She's the author of the book The Other Significant Others, and she walks the talk by communal living, and she's going to share how our romantic partnerships don't have to be the center of everything.

She's giving perspective on the importance of friendship and platonic bonds, along with rewriting the script for how some things have been sold to us when it comes to partnership and friends. Joining me this week is Raina Cohen of the book, The Other Significant Others. Rana, how are you? So glad to be able to talk to you. I'm excited to have you on because this book is really cool. And I love anything that challenges a normal narrative. And I feel like your book is really doing that and trying to open our minds just that much further to say, hey, let's look at life a little bit differently. And one of the main things that this is focused on is friendship. So having this book and writing this book, I'd love to know where the beginning of this started and why you wrote the book. It started because of a friendship that I have that really made me ask fundamental questions about what friendship even is and what it can be. So my friend who I refer to as M, she and I, especially at the beginning of our friendship, felt like we weren't even just best friends. Like that was too small of a term to describe how intertwined we were in each other's

lives. We lived right near each other. So we saw each other three, four, five times a week. We were really integrated into each other's day-to-day lives, but also the bigger things. We were often default plus ones to each other's events. And we, you know, we both had this period where we were like, what do we call each other? And do we use a term like partner? And I knew of other people who had similar friendships. And then the big thing is that I knew that in history, there had been more intimate friendships. So, So the combination made me want to find people who today have such close friendships and to kind of tie them to history as well to see, does friendship have to be the way it is now? Has it always

been the way it is now and what might be possible? Yeah. And you mentioned history. And I would just love to know some of those examples. I've seen you post some of them and talk about some of them before. But because, again, I don't even think I know some of these things. When I saw your videos, I was like, wait, what? So some of those examples of things happening in history that maybe we didn't quite get the full story. Can you share some of those? Yeah, well, I guess one thing is like, let's start with how we think about friendship now. And we think of it as this secondary relationship that is behind marriage. It's not kind of your most emotionally intimate relationship. And it's often temporary. And that was not the way things necessarily were in the past. So one example that I find

kind of incredible is this process called sworn brotherhood where across the world men would go into churches and they would be blessed by a priest and put when they would put their hands on the gospels and they would pledge to to a friend, a male friend, to become brothers for life. And some of those men ended up being buried together. And there are versions of this all across the world. And that was a form of friendship that was publicly recognized. which we don't do now, and it was really treated with a lot of gravity. And the other example, which was the one that I had known a little bit about at the time when Emnott were trying to understand the nature of our friendship, is called romantic friendship.

So these lasted from, you know, 17th, 18th, the 19th century. You would see these very intimate same-sex friendships, both between men and between women. And there is a level of gushing, is one way to put it, an open-heartedness. that I think would strike a lot of people as today in a place like the U.S. is quite remarkable, especially when you see it among men. One of the lines that I remember from a letter exchange between two men is this man saying that the last pulsations of my heart will vibrate for you. And this was no big deal.

He just put it in a letter. And one of the kind of issues today and that happened around the turn of the 20th century is that any kind of same-sex intimacy has been. been coded as potentially queer, like as homosexual desire. And that was just not the case for centuries and centuries. It created more opportunity for both men and women to have intimate same-sex friendships without there being any kind of suspicion or consequences or stigma attached to it. So friendships got to flourish more. Well, and you say that and you're talking about these things in history that obviously we're way back when, why is it now that we're so focused?

on our lives sintering around a romantic partnership being out of the center. What changed? I kind of imagine two lines crisscrossing where you have friendship is diminishing and it's importance as the closeness in friendship becomes suspect that you have all this, basically the invention of homosexuality and heterosexuality around the turn of the 20th century. Like we think of those things as always existing, but they didn't in the way that we now think of them as identities. So friendship is on the decline. And marriage, which used to be a really transactional relationship that's basically like an economic trade where families are getting new in-laws and there's a kind of exchange happening between husbands

and wives. Then we started to think about love as being not just a bonus in marriage, but actually something that's foundational to it. And if you fast forward to the last few decades, it's not just that we expect marriages to be filled with love, but also that person is going to be your best friend. We've really like eclipsed to the role of friendship and made that part of what a romantic relationship is. See the way that marriages and friendships have changed as happening in tandem or very connected to each other because the larger, the role that marriage plays, the less role there is for friendship and vice versa. And do you think it's because we've really intertwined the two that it has, had such an impact on us thinking, okay, once I find this romantic partner, then I don't need friends or I don't have time for friends. Has that been that change that you've studied and

experienced of, I have this, now I don't need this? When I know, personally, that's not the case. Those things are not interchangeable. The kind of underlying logic, but there is this one person who is going to make you fulfilled, who will turn you into a successful adult. I think it's very rare that if you're hanging around, let's say you're at a big family reunion, are people really going to ask about who are your closest friends these days? Are you, like, feeling fulfilled in your friendships? Or we'll see being fulfilled in your friendships as a mark of a good life, even though when you actually ask people about who matters to them,

they will probably talk about the friendships in their lives. So I think there is a bit of a disconnect between what a lot of people experience and what we are told matters. And if your spouse is supposed to be your best friend, and that just doesn't leave a lot of room for your best friend. And if your spouse is supposed to be the person who you share everything with, then the idea that you go off and have other hobbies with friends or that there are other things that you really connect to other people over, then that might be seen as a problem to. connect with people who are not your spouse in a way that really matters. And that's where you get sort of things like an emotional affair or I think possessiveness is also connected to this, that people expect their partners to be the one and only person and that they should have access to them at full time, that there's a competition for anybody else who might grab their attention.

So I'm curious, because you writing this book and you talking about this, how did you make sure you didn't fall into this trap. I don't want to call it a trap because some people might be super happy, but for lack of a better term, trap, where we fall into the same experience that we've been conditioned to believe as the only experience. How did you not fall into that? You live a lifestyle that is very much you're practicing what you preach.

Yeah. I mean, I think of a couple of early memories, one that really set me on our trajectory, I think to be intentional about not letting a romantic relationship be the only relationship. that really mattered in my life. When I was a teenager, I saw a relative end up in a long romantic relationship and it ended kind of surprisingly. And he, after those years of being with that partner, didn't really have anybody else because he put everything into that one relationship. And then, you know, when I was in college, a friend I was very close to basically disappeared

as a friend when she entered into a romantic relationship, which I found hard. And then subsequently, any time we spent together, she would bring her partner. And so I thought with those two experiences, one, I didn't want the fragility of putting all of your eggs in one basket. And then on the flip side, I didn't want to do to other people what I had experienced being done to me, which was being basically demoted. And I didn't necessarily think that was great. It wasn't great for me, and I didn't necessarily think it was great for the

friend. And this all predates working on the book, but those experiences made me really want to nurture friendships. And I always cared a lot about friendships. And then I think with the man I ended up marrying, we had really similar values. And one of the things that drew me to him from the get-go was how close he was to his college friends and how much work he put into those relationships. And we made a point, like we didn't spend every night at each other's apartments. Like we had time for ourselves. And and have adopted a principle from other people we know that be individuals together and to nurture our community. So our romantic relationship is structured around having other people that we are close to and

cultivating and encouraging those relationships with one another or encouraging each other's relationships kind of beyond our marriage. Yeah. And you mentioned this because you guys even went a step further than that. You were doing this in the beginning stages of your dating. You guys got married and you lived with some of your friends and their kids and you're experiencing communal living, which is out of the ordinary to most people when they hear it. So you guys really adapted this entire lifestyle change that you're preaching genuinely. And I'm so curious what that experience has been like for you to do it because I think talking about it is how we open up minds and people start to understand.

and see what their options could be. So, yeah, my husband and I have lived in communal setups for, I guess, four years now and in a couple different configurations. So for three years, we lived with two close friends and they're initially one kid and then they had a second child while we were living together. And we knew that was a kind of limited time situation because our friends were going to have to leave for their jobs eventually, which they did. But we still have a group chat that we were all texting in and we're going to stay with them

in a couple of weeks and we're getting dispatches about the kids. And we really love that experience and wanted to continue living with close friends if we could and basically recruited a friend of ours to come and move to D.C. And move into the house that we've been in. And then we have another, anyway, it's just grown. And now we have two more friends all living together. And then we continue to enjoy the experience. And now are in a group of people, including my current housemates,

who are looking to create a sort of, I guess, community, or I was going to say compound, but that makes it sound maybe a little crazier than a day. There are a group of us who want to live together and then also be a sort of anchor for a neighborhood where we could get more friends to move very close by. And part of that is there are several people who want to have children and want to do that in a way that doesn't feel isolating. And parenthood is one of the hardest times to maintain friendships. And we've seen how people who have done a lot of work on the front end to live near their

friends have had much more support and much more fun in what can be a kind of isolating time of life. Yeah, for sure. I think it's so cool what you guys are doing. And I think it's awesome that you can share your experiences and people can feel more comfortable about making choices that are different than what we are used to. And that's how we change normal. That's how we change this definition of, well, this is normal and that's not normal. So I think it's really cool. That's awesome. A win is a win. A win is a win. I don't care what you're saying.

Yep, that's me, Clifford Taylor the 4th. You might have seen the skits, the reactions, my journey from basketball to college football, or my career in sports media. Well, somewhere along the way, this platform became bigger than I ever imagined. And now I'm bringing all of that excitement

to my brand new podcast, The Clifford Show. This is a place for raw, unfiltered conversations with some of your favorite athletes, creators, and voices that not only deserve to be heard, but celebrated. One week I'll take you behind the scenes of the biggest moments in sports and entertainment,

and the next we'll talk about life, mental health, purpose, and even music. The Clifford Show isn't just a podcast, it's a space for honest conversations, stories that don't always get told, and for people who are chasing something bigger. So, if you've ever supported me or you're just chasing down a dream,

this is right where you need to be. Listen to the Clifford Show on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more behind the scenes, Follow at Clifford and a TikTok podcast network on TikTok. You can have opinions. You can have like a strong stance. And then there's your body having its own program.

I'm Dr. Maya Shunker, a cognitive scientist and hosts of the podcast, a slight change of plans, a show about who we are and who we become when life makes other plans. We share stories and scientific insights to help us all better navigate these periods of turbulence and transformation. There is one finding that is consistent, and that is that our resilience rests on our relationships. I wish that I hadn't resisted for so long the need to change. We have to be willing to live with a kind of uncertainty that none of us likes. Listen to a slight change of plans on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. When you listen to podcasts about AI,

and tech and the future of humanity. The hosts always act like they know what they're talking about and they are experts at everything. Here, the Nick Dick and Poll Show, we're not afraid to make mistakes. What Kugler did that I think was so unique. He's the writer-director. Who do you think he is?

I don't know. You meet the president? You think Canada has a president? You think China has a president? Those law crusade. God, I love that thing. I use it all the time. I wrap it in a blanket and St.

to it like it's like the old Polish saying not my monkeys not my circus it was a good one I like that snake it is an actual Polish saying yeah it is an actual Polish saying yeah it is an actual better version of play stupid games win stupid prizes yes which by the way

wasn't Taylor Swift who said that for the first time I actually I thought it was I got that wrong listen to the Nick Dick and Paul show on the Iheart radio app Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts if you're watching the latest season of the Real House This is why some Atlanta, you already know, there's a lot to break down. Georgia accusing Kelly of sleeping with a merry man. They holding Kay Michelle back from fighting Drew.

Pinky has financial issues. I like the bougie style of Housewives show. I think it looks like it's going to be interesting. On the podcast, Reality with the King, I, Carlos King, recap the biggest moments from your favorite reality shows, including the Real House Wise franchise, the drama, the alliances, and the team. Everybody's talking about it.

As an executive producer in reality television, I'm not just watching it. I understand the game. As somebody who creates shows, I'll even say this. At the end of the day, when people are at home, they want entertainment. To hear this and more, listen to Reality with the King on the IHard Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. On a recent episode of the podcast Money and Wealth with John Hope Bryant, I sit down with Tiffany the budgetista Aliche, to talk about what it really takes to take control of your money. What would that look like in our families if everyone was able to pass on wealth

to the people when they're no longer here? We break down budgeting, financial discipline, and how to build real wealth, starting with the mindset shifts. Too many of us were never, ever taught. Financial education is not always about, like, I'm going to get rich. That's great. It's about creating an atmosphere for you to be able to take care of yourself and leave a strong financial legacy for your family.

If you've ever felt you didn't get the memo on money, this conversation is for you to hear more. Listen to Money and Wealth with John O'Brien from the Black Effect Network on the I'd Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. I'm curious your thoughts for those people who say you had the experience with your friend where they got into a relationship and you never saw them again or they had kids and they never saw you again. How do people avoid that happening in their friendships and relationships and why is it necessary to avoid that happening? You can't control other people's behavior if they disappear,

but I think what you can do is take seriously what you feel and that's not necessarily going to be kind of endorsed by the world around you. But what I found when I was talking about, talking to people who would experience losses in friendship, whether it was a falling out or like a friend falling off the face of the earth with a romantic relationship, is that they were not getting from the world around them any kind of recognition that the loss really hurt. And it was hard for them to appreciate how difficult it was and that they sort of felt like I've just got to get over it. And that makes the whole situation worse. So I think if someone is on the receiving end, where, where friends disappear to honor that that's difficult. And once you do that, it becomes possible then to maybe open a conversation with the friend and not see it as inevitable. And let's say it's the situation where there's a romantic partner who comes in and you can say, I'm excited for you.

I know there's this really thrilling honeymoon period. But I also think our friendship is really important. And I want us to maintain it. And I want you to understand where I'm coming. from, and I'm saying this because I really care about our friendship. So I think in order to ask something of someone else and to tell them that you are having a hard time, like you need to tell yourself that it is okay to be having a hard time and that it's not just the way things have to be. And then if you are in the position where, let's say you enter a romantic relationship,

you can choose not to isolate yourself and you can make choices to nurture friendships. You can make it of value within the romantic relationship that you are going to, have other people in your life who really matter to you, that it is also good for the relationship. There is research on this, that romantic relationships are stronger when people have other close friends that they can turn to, diversify your portfolio in all areas of life. So those would be some of my recommendations so that people both don't kind of undermine their friendships and don't undermine their own experiences of hardship in friendship because it really can be difficult. I'm so curious the studies on this because I'm 31. I'm now in a relationship,

but I wasn't for a really long time. And I struggled a lot with the fact that I had so many friends who really saw their relationships as the end-all be-all and their life couldn't exist without it. And I was just sitting there like, well, we have a lot of fun. We do a lot of cool stuff. I don't understand why this is just the end all be all kind of thing. So I always did have this different mindset of, well, it'll happen when it's supposed to happen. And until then and after then, I will be just fine and I will have all the things that I have right now. But that's not a very common mindset to have. And I'm curious, one on the research of making sure it's important for your relationship to continue these things because I feel that way. But I'm also just curious,

thought process for all of my single people out there who may have been in a similar set of shoes that I was in. And I really struggled with that because nobody was understanding me, which is also how and why I stumbled on you. I was like, I need to bring her on to have this conversation. There's a way that American society really belittle single people and treats them as not quite full adults and that your life will arrive once you have found a romantic partner. And that is a terrible way for society to be you, people, and then inevitably you internalize some of it. Like, what is wrong with me or my life hasn't really started yet? I just think a really unfortunate and unfair way for single people to have to live.

It's just wrong. Like, you can have a full life without a romantic partnership. You can also have a really sad life with a romantic partnership. I think there's the focus on quality rather than, you know, do you. you check this box is probably a wiser thing to do. And then in terms of people who might benefit from thinking a little bit differently about the role of a romantic partner in their life, there is research, for instance, showing that people who have kind of robust support networks outside of their marriage are happier in their marriages than those who do not have

those support networks. There's also research that like checked how stressed people got in marital complex and people who had these other close relationships in their lives experienced less of a spike in cortisol, the stress hormone, than people who did not have those sorts of robust support networks. So it's not good to expect that one person is going to be everything. And I think that if people recognize that about their own romantic relationships, it might help them not belittle the people who are not in romantic partnerships and provide so much sustenance to their lives. Yeah, for sure. And so it leads me into this next moment of how do we become better friends? How can we show up better? How can we be the friend that we wanted to have that you

and I are speaking on experiences of we wish we had a better friend in that moment? How can we ensure we are being that friend? Sort of related to what we've been talking about. about, I think one thing that's really helpful is not to create these really strict lines between what does a romantic partner do, what does a friend do, what does family do, and to really, to think about, I have friends going through some very difficult things at the moment. And instead of trying to figure out, like, what is the role that I should play according to my title? It's more, what do these people need? Do I care about them?

and what can I do that I have capacity, reasonable capacity to do to support them and not treat friends like, well, somebody else who's closer to them should figure it out. Like being a friend means being there for the difficult times as well as the good times. I also think being a good friend means making time. Like that is where what you put on your calendar, I think is where your values are. and I have found it is much easier to become close to people and therefore know what is happening in their lives when you have regular contact. And one way to do that is just to put regular time on the calendar with people. I mean, this sounds extremely simple, but it makes a difference between

actually being a part of someone's life or having them be intimately involved. And the distinction I like to think of is, are you moving through life together or are you narrating life after the fact? So either frequency or just making decisions about how you spend time together, like you're going to go on grocery runs or you're going to do things where you're out in the world spending time together where you're going to have experiences that you will recall and you get to sort of be entangled in the day to day versus every six weeks we're going to have coffee and we're going to tell us, tell each other what happened in the last six weeks rather than experiencing something in an active way. Oh, I love that saying that you just said. hits home because there are some friendships where you recall and it's so beautiful but you aren't connected in everyday life and there are these different experiences that you're having and I think it's really awesome that we as people can choose to have this ability to show up in the ways that we need to like you you ultimately get to make the decision and the choice of how you're going

to show up for people and you just reiterated that and that saying really did that. And I also noted for myself because me and all of my friends on a day-to-day basis when we catch each other on a phone call or a text, we're like, okay, put it in the calendar. When are we seeing each other next? Like put it in. We're not, I don't care if it has to be two weeks from now. Put it in. And then it's in.

And we can't go back on that. Like it's in the calendar. It means it's happening. And it's funny because as an adult, I never would have thought I'd have to use my calendar as a social calendar as well, like physically social calendar. but it's been really important to ensure that I am always there and I'm always showing up, even when I do show up in other ways and the normal moments and talking to everybody each day or interacting with them, it's no, put it on the calendar.

So I make sure I see you face to face no matter what. And that has made a significant difference for me and being able to show up as my whole self and for them to show up in a way. So it's funny that you mentioned the calendar. The other kind of suggestion I would have is be more like a kid in how you approach friends. One thing that is, I've described already one part of this, which is go experience things together rather than talk about it after the fact. I mean, so many of my friendships as a kid was like coming up with games together or like going on adventures. And then another part of it, I think maybe especially for girls, you know, they might have had experiences with.

is really like celebrating the friendship in the way that we are used to celebrating romantic relationships. People celebrate anniversaries. There are rituals around romantic relationships. And as kids, there often are rituals around friendship, again, probably more so for girls and for boys, but like friendship bracelets, you know, there might like secret handshakes, other kinds of playful ways that kids will come up with. And I think bringing some of that ceremony and that sort of excitement about the friendship as an entity that you want to talk about and preserve is also a really great way to enrich a friendship as an adult. I just had some of my best friends visiting who we all now live in different cities.

And we were sitting at dinner and talking about the sisterhood of traveling pants. And we were like, what can be our pair of jeans? What can we start sending to each other and sending back and forth? and it be this very exciting you get snail mail every so often. And it's this thing that we're passing back to each other to stay close. And we had just talked about that. And that movie is such a good example of finding ways to connect, even if you can't connect in the most normal everyday ways.

I think there's like a kind of exuberance about friendship that you see in like among adolescents and like young kids too, that maybe it doesn't feel like as okay to express as an adult. And yeah, if you love your friend, like, be clear about that and spend a lot of time on it and come up with ways to feel connected and come up with things that feel special between the two of you or the group of you. A win is a win. A win is a win.

I don't care which I'm saying. Yep, that's me. Clipper Taylor the 4th. You might have seen the skis. kids, the reactions, my journey from basketball to college football, or my career in sports media. Well, somewhere along the way, this platform became bigger than I ever imagined. And now I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brand new podcast, The Clifford Show. This is a place for raw, unfiltered conversations with some of your favorite athletes,

creators, and voices that not only deserve to be heard, but celebrated. One week, I'll take you behind the scenes of the biggest moments in sports and entertainment, and the next we'll talk about life, mental health, purpose, and even mute. The Clifford Show isn't just a podcast. It's a space for honest conversations, stories that don't always get told, and for people who are chasing something bigger. So if you've ever supported me or you're just chasing down a dream, this is right where you need to be.

Listen to the Clifford show on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more behind the scenes, follow at Clifford and at TikTok Podcast Network on TikTok. You can have opinions. You can have like a strong stance. stands and then there's your body having its own program. I'm Dr. Maya Shunker, a cognitive scientist and hosts of the podcast a slight change of plans, a show about who we are and who we become when life makes other plans. We share stories and scientific

insights to help us all better navigate these periods of turbulence and transformation. There is one finding that is consistent and that is that our Our resilience rests on our relationships. I wish that I hadn't resisted for so long the need to change. We have to be willing to live with a kind of uncertainty that none of us likes. Listen to a slight change of plans on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. When you listen to podcasts about AI and tech and the future of humanity, the hosts always act like they know what they're talking about and they are experts at everything. Here at the Nick Dick and Poll show, we're not afraid to make mistakes.

What Coogler did that I think was so unique. He's the writer-director. Who do you think he is? I don't know. You mean the, like, the president? You think Canada has a president. You think China has a president. Love Guzette.

God, I love that thing. I use it all the time. I wrap it in a blanket and sing to it at night. It's like the old Polish saying, not my monkeys, not my circus. Yep. It was a good one. I like that snake. It is an actual Polish saying. It is an actual Polish thing. Better version of Play Stupid Games, win stupid prizes.

Yes. Which, by the way, wasn't Taylor Swift, who said that for the first time. I actually thought it was. I got that wrong. Listen to the Nick Dick and Paul show on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. On a recent episode of the podcast, Money and Wealth with John Hobriant, I sit down with Tiffany the Bucconista Aliche to talk about what it really takes to take control of your money. What would that look like in our families if everyone was able to pass on wealth to the people when they're no longer here? We break down budgeting, financial discipline, and how to build real wealth, starting with the mindset shifts. Too many of us

were never, ever taught. Financial education is not always about, like, I'm going to get rich. That's great. It's about creating an atmosphere for you to be able to take care of yourself and leave a strong financial legacy for your family. If you've ever felt you didn't get the memo on money, this conversation is for you to hear more. Listen to Money and Wealth with John O'Brien from the Black Effect Network on the I'd Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast.

If you're watching the latest season of the Real Housewives of Atlanta, you already know there's a lot to break down. Georgia accusing Kelly of sleeping with a merry man. They holding Kay Michelle back from fighting Drew. Pinky has financial issues. I like the bougie style of Housewives show. I think it looks like it's going to be interesting. On the podcast, Reality with the King, I, Carlos King, recap the biggest moments from your favorite reality shows, including the Real Housewise franchise.

The drama, the alliances, and the team everybody's talking about. As an executive producer in reality television, I'm not just watching. it, I understand the game. As somebody who creates shows, I'll even say this. At the end of the day, when people are at home, they want entertainment. To hear this and more, listen to Reality with the King on the IHard Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And speaking of connection, I had seen you say opportunities for career and connection

are often hidden in plain sight. And that really resonated with me. love to have you expand on that a little bit more because I do often think much like we always say in romantic relationships, you'll find somebody when you're not looking. I do think similar things happen when it comes to other aspects of our life. Well, what this makes me think of as like one, on Saturdays I take off from technology. I don't use my phone. And it makes me a little bit of an observer of the rest of the world where I just see everybody head down looking at their phones and not interacting with the people around them.

So, I mean, one obvious thing is if you are getting out of your house, which I hope people are spending time, like, not just in their homes all day, there are people that you can interact with who you can chat up and is certainly an opportunity to get to know people. But I think there is a chance not just to meet new people, but to have closer friendships than maybe we have been told. And that involves taking some risks and maybe inviting people to spend time together or doing things basically to escalate the friendship that might get you

rejected and we know that rejection is part of the process for romantic relationships. But we're not really like given the same expectations I think about friendship that you have to make overtures. I think if someone came to you and said, I really want a romantic partner, but like nobody's asking me out. No one's approaching me. You'd probably say like, well, are you getting out of dating app? Are you asking anybody out? What are you contributing? But I have heard for friendship a lot of, you know, well, nobody talks to me or like nobody's asking me to hang out. And it's like, well, what are you asking people to hang out? Are you setting up gatherings? Are you taking risks? So I actually think that one way to kind of make friendship stronger is to take some of the expectations that come from the rewards and difficulties of the dating world and applying that to friendship.

Yeah, that's really good. And so much of what you're talking about too just reminds me a lot of my friendships and how they have formed over the course of time. One friend formed because I started talking to her. She was a trainer at a gym. I started working out at and we just slowly kept having more and more conversations. And one of my best friends that I've known for over 17 years is somebody who we were dating the same guy. And then we teamed up and were like, yeah, we don't need this guy. We've been best friends ever since. And so many of my friendships have similar stories of that where they were just coming from unexpected places.

And had I not been open to the idea of just accepting a new person? And these were all different phases of my life. None of them were one and the same. They weren't all when I was a kid or in college or now as an adult. They're all over. And had I been just closed off to so many of those experiences as a human being, I wouldn't have these incredible friendships who. have gotten me through so much of my life. Well, yeah, I mean, I love two, two women dating one man,

and they're like, yeah, let's throw this one out. Yeah, it's our funny friendship story that we still love telling to the stay because we're like, how we both not dated a really stupid idiot, we would not be best friends. And honestly, that's just meant to be for how life works out sometimes. So it is one of our favorite stories. And I just, I love this importance of friendship and so much of what you're focusing on. Because truly I do look at my friendships. And there are so many parts of my life that I don't know that I would have genuinely made it through had I not created and fostered and really supported those friendships.

Even when I'm super busy, there's still moments of my life where I'm like, how do I check in? How do I show up? Even if I can't show up in a way that I really want to, how do I make sure this person knows that I'm always here and I'm always going to support them. And that's been such a big piece of who I am as a friend that, and people will ask me all the time on social media, like, how do you do it? How are you making all the time? How are you doing this?

I'm like, I have to. These people are a priority for me. And if I don't do this, I would be lost without them. And I think that's pretty uncommon for a lot of people to say about friendships. I do think some people feel this. I certainly know that people believe their friendships, especially if they talk to people who are older, who they really live through a lot of life. They have deep appreciation for their friendship. But the messaging out in the world does not align with the experience that so many people have.

So then for those who aren't who maybe personally have not had such close friendships, and it's confusing to them. And it feels like an outlier. But we aren't necessarily widely talking about how much our friends mean to us. And you just sort of get locked into these cycles. Like when you are catching up with somebody, do you ask them about their romantic partner? How they're doing? Probably. Do you ask like how their closest friends are doing?

Maybe. Like in my life I do. But I think for a lot of people, it wouldn't necessarily occur to them. That knowing about their platonic social life, is an essential part of understanding where that person is at the moment, what matters to them. And if you're not asking the questions, you're not getting that information and you're not necessarily understanding what other people's experiences might be and that maybe you should go out and try to invest more in the friendships in your life. And I can see how people might be surprised

because we don't really have the conditions to see if this is a relatively common thing. Yeah. And you say that. And it's funny. the friend that I was mentioning and telling you the story of how we met dating the same guy. Every time that we talk to each other, we don't live in the same city. But every time we're like, okay, well, how's your family? How is so-and-so? And we'll mention each other's friends that live in those cities. What's going on with them?

And until you just said that in this moment, I didn't realize that wasn't normal. I thought we were supposed to talk about what was going on in each other's lives. And part of that is your friendships. Yeah, I think some people do. It's like if you, but it's not necessarily an instinct for everybody. And there's certainly people in my life who are very maybe centered around their romantic partnerships and they would ask about a partner or are you dating and family and work. Like that's the trifecta and it wouldn't necessarily occur to them. I mean at this point people know friendship matters to me. But like I know for some people just it just wouldn't rise to the surface. And again, like they're not necessarily getting depictions in pop culture that say to have a good life. Like you really need to be. be paying attention to your friends or your friends are an essential part of your life or when you think about where you're going to live. You don't just think about your job and your family. You can also think about where your friends are. It's kind of coming through different channels. We're not

necessarily getting the reinforcement that this is a really essential part of a good life. Yeah, for sure. And I thought of something as you're sharing this and I would just love your take on it based on this entire conversation. There's obviously this really bad narrative. around opposite sex friendships and people not being able like boys and girls can't be friends. They can't just be friends. What are your thoughts on that? Because that's a hot topic that a lot of people just really love to nail on the coffin. Yeah.

Wasn't when Harry met Sally like 30 years ago and we're still having this conversation? One of the piece of feedback or outreach I've gotten very commonly after the book came out was like, do you have stories of opposite sex friends who have this? kind of really intense friendship, which is the focus of the book. And I do, I have examples, but I think what people are particularly interested in are like friendships between a straight man and a straight woman and how those fare. And some of the messages I've gotten for people or people coming up to tell me stories are like, I have this really close friendship, but other people don't understand it. Or the wife was jealous and we had to scale back or whatever the case is. So it's been a

shocking to me that this is still such a big issue. And it feels kind of inextricably connected to the idea that your romantic partner should be your everything because it creates a sense of competition that let's say there's a husband is jealous of a wife's best friend who's a man, that if you didn't have this idea that they're that you're failing as a partner if you're not everything to them, that it might not be seen as so threatening to know that there's somebody else that they're close to. And the other thing is that I came to understand and working on the book is that we really conflate different forms of attraction and connection. And I learn this from the talking to people in the asexual community, so people who don't experience sexual attraction, that they

really have this language to disaggregate, what sexual attraction is romantic attraction, which might be more like the flutters that you feel, which I feel for friends often, but it's not necessarily attached to sexual desire, that you might have, you might be intellectually attracted to a friend or like emotionally attracted to somebody. And so I think one of the things that it gets in the way when you have straight men and straight women and who are really close and the sort of judgment is maybe coming from the outside is that there is this assumption that sex underlies everything or sexual desire underlies all forms of connection when actually it can be separate from those. And then I think that's kind of the outside judgment. Some people

might not end up in these friendships because they buy into these ideas themselves that they're inviting trouble or they don't trust the other person. But I think the like queer community really shows that people who are of sexual orientations that are attracted to each other can be close friends. And this is sort of straight people issue that continues. I'm like amazed. And in 2025, we're still trying to grapple with this. But for some people, it remains an issue. Yeah. Yeah. This is why I wanted you to hit on it because unfortunately it's still a very hot topic and it's heck you could go in comment sections on videos and it's still being used. So very prevalent. And it's also sad that you would cut off half the population basically. You're a huge portion of

your potential friends. You're like, nope, not considering them because like this will threaten my relationship. It'll threaten their romantic relationship. Maybe they'll come on to me. that like I don't think it's a healthy thing to to sort of ward off so much of the population and to sort of slap on these assumptions about how things are going to turn out rather than respond to the individual person. The line that comes to me, some of my best friends are men, which sounds kind of ridiculous. But it's like my life would be much, much less rich if I didn't have those close male relationships.

And yes, men and women can be friends and to those who have trouble with it. we got to rework our ideas about what romantic relationship should look like and what attraction involves. Yes, we definitely do. And I'm with you on that train. I believe it. I see my boyfriend has lots of female friends. And I'm always like, okay, how can I become friends with them? You're friends with them. I want to hang out with them. What do they like? It's more of a, I want to know what that's like. And let's invite them in further. And I do think so much of it is also attached to insecurities of our own and our own experiences that have created a specific narrative that it can't exist.

And there's plenty of movies and stuff out there, too, that show us this is a storyline. But it keeps sort of coming back to this idea of like competition and scarcity versus a mindset that's much more centered around abundance and that having more people who you are close to is good for you as an individual. it's good for a relationship. And I think people should be concerned if they either have a romantic partner that's trying to narrow down the number of close relationships in their lives and saying people are off limits. Or if you have that impulse that, you know, it's worth asking, where is this coming from?

And is it is trying to control the other person really the right way to address whatever kinds of fears you have? And are there other ways to address those fears that don't make another person's life have to shrink? Yeah, that's a really important thing. And I'd love to end on that, but that's not how we end this podcast. How we typically end it is that I want you to share something, whether it's a piece of advice or inspiration or something that maybe we just didn't get to that you feel super important. But I loved that.

That was really good. So we're still going to end, though, on something that you want to. so I just give the floor over to you and you share whatever you want in this moment of time. Well, something I was thinking of earlier in the conversation when you were saying, like changing our idea of what normal is, you know, to me this whole project, it is about friendship, but it is also about trying to ask ourselves, what is it that we want? And maybe you have never asked yourself the question, who do I want to live with? You've just thought, obviously, I will live with a romantic partner.

and if I can't do that, I'll live alone. Versus, like, having the moment to stop and ask, like, what actually fits for me might end up leading you to make decisions that surprise you and make you much more satisfied. I think of a friend of mine who got her own apartment because she was like, this is, she wasn't in a romantic relationship and was like, this is what basically the next step is as an adult. I like live alone, right? And was unhappy pretty quickly and realized that. no, actually I really like coming home to people and loved living with friends and upended her

life to make that happen. And I think sometimes we operate on autopilot and we think that if we are not happy when we do the things that we are supposed to, that it means that there's something wrong with us. But actually, what might help is really first making sure that the thing we're doing is in fact what we want. And that is really hard in a world. And that is really hard in a world. that tells you there's a certain set of things you want and there's a certain sequence in which to get those things. But I have just found by talking to people who have really unconventional friendships and unconventional ways of living that asking those questions and sometimes fielding the confusion of other people is so, so worth it. Yeah. Well, that's an even

better thing to end on because that's a great question for people to start asking themselves because it is. I don't know that I've ever asked myself that, but I'm also super, happy and I love living with my dog and cat and fostering animals, which is a whole another zoo situation that I bring on to my world. But I think that's a really great self-reflection piece to make sure that you're living your life as full as it could possibly be instead of maybe not doing it just for the sake of others' thoughts and feelings. And maybe the one thing I would add on to that, because I always like to think about it from your vantage point and also what are you experiencing and then also how are you seeing the world? Like if there were people who you

are inclined to judge because they're doing things differently, just take a moment to ask like, why am I, why are they doing this? And is there anything that I could learn from it? Is there anything worth admiring here? Is there anything to be curious about? And I think that when we are less inclined to judge others, we might also become more open ourselves to doing things that don't necessarily feel like they are endorsed by the world around us. But we, again, might actually like if we gave ourselves space. See, this is why you're an author, Raina. This is exactly why you're sharing the things that we need to be hearing. And I'm so happy that you came on just to share your story and share why you wrote the book and everything. If you need something to try or want to open

your mind a little bit, I definitely suggest her book, The Other Significant Others. Raina, thank you so much for being here. Yeah, thanks for the conversation. I've got another holiday episode coming up for all of you guys. If you have holiday struggles to share things that are hard in this particular season, I want you guys to send them my way. I'll post on the podcast socials and you'll send in a voice note that I'll play back during the episode. It's one you guys loved last year, so making it happen again. And then some episodes all about babies and motherhood with the help of my sister, a new mom, that's Taylor. So like and subscribe because that also helps me out. And you won't miss those episodes. Happy that you're here. Thanks for spending an hour with me. I'll

yap with you guys about the holidays next week. A win is a win. A win is a win. I don't care which I'm saying. Yep, that's me, Clivert Taylor the 4th. You might have seen the skits, my basketball and college football journey, or my career in sports media. Well, now I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brand new podcast, The Clifers Show. This is a place for raw, unfills of conversations with athletes, creators, and voices that not only deserve to be heard, but celebrated. So let's get to it. Listen to the Clifford show on the IHard Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more behind the scenes, follow at Clifford and at TikTok podcast network on TikTok.

Hey, I'm Dr. Maya Shunker, a cognitive scientist and hosts of the podcast, a slight change of plans, a show about who we are and who we become when life makes other plans. I wish that I hadn't resisted for so long the need to change. We have to be willing to live with a kind of uncertainty that none of us likes. You can have opinions. You can have like a strong stance. And then there's your body having its own program. Listen to a slight change of plans on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

On a recent episode of the podcast Money and Wealth with John Hobriant, I sit down with Tiffany the budgetista Aliche to talk. talk about what it really takes to take control of your money. What would that look like in our families if everyone was able to pass on wealth to the people when they're no longer here? We break down budgeting, financial discipline, and how to build real wealth, starting with the mindset shifts. Too many of us were never, ever taught. If you've ever felt you didn't get the memo on money, this conversation is for you to hear more. Listen to Money and Wealth with John Hope Bryant from the Black Effect Network on the I'd Heart Radio app. Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast.

Earners, what's up? Look, money is something we all deal with, but financial literacy is what helps turn income into real wealth. On each episode of the podcast, Earn Your Leisure, we break down the conversations you need to understand money, investing, and entrepreneurship. From stocks and real estate to credit, business, and generational wealth, our goal is simple.

Make financial literacy accessible for everyone. Because when you understand the system, you can start to build within it. Open your free I-Hard Radio app. Search Earn Your Leisure and listen now. American Soccer is about to explode. The World Cup is coming. Ramos sending on to Ernie Stewart the chip.

Score! I'm TAB Ramos. I'm Tom Boe. On our podcast, inside American soccer, you'll get the real storylines, the biggest decisions, and the truth about the U.S. national team. It wouldn't be a huge surprise

if our team ends up in the quarterfinals or potentially a great run into the semifinals. Listen, Inside American Soccer with Tom Bogart and Tabramos on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, wherever you get your podcast. This is an IHeart podcast. Guaranteed Human.