the bossbabe podcast - 185. What Marriage, Divorce and Business Have in Common with Raiford Dalton Palmer, J.D.

Episode Date: September 28, 2021

Everyone expects their marriage to end in “happily ever after.” The problem is very few people are prepared for things to take a turn for the worse – which can land you in a confusing and expensive situation overnight. BossBabe Co-Founder and President, Danielle Canty, has navigated a divorce of her own, so it felt important to us to have an honest conversation about marriage, divorce, and what you’re actually committing to when you say “I do.” That’s why we invited Divorce lawyer and author, Raiford Dalton Palmer, to The BossBabe Podcast to share his perspective. In this episode, we get real on the not-so-sexy parts of marriage, and dive into all the questions you’re probably too scared to ask. From alimony, prenups, and postnups, to protecting your business, children, and sanity in the process, you’ll get the legal intel on how to divorce with grace and dignity, even if you don’t get your fairytale ending.  Links: BossBabe’s FREE 30 Days Of Content Guide Purity Coffee  Use code “COFFEEDAY25” at checkout for 25% off + free shipping Soul CBD  Use code “BOSSBABE15” at checkout for 15% off Hello Fresh  Use code “BOSSBABE14” for up to 14 free meals + free shipping I Just Want This Done by Raiford Dalton Palmer, J.D. Follow: BossBabe: @bossbabe.inc Natalie Ellis: @iamnatalie Danielle Canty: @daniellecanty Raiford Palmer: @raifordpalmer

Get a marriage counselor early. Don't wait till you're done. That's when you're done. It's too late. There's a certain emotional bridge we cross in relationships, whether they're business or personal. Once you've made it across that bridge, you're not going back.

Welcome to the Boss Babe Podcast, the place where we share with you the real behind the scenes of building successful businesses, achieving peak performance, and learning how to balance it all. I'm Danielle Candy, co-founder and president of Boss Babe and one of your hosts for today's episode. Now, I wanted to do this introduction on my own because I chose this next guest because of what I'm going through currently and it's actually an episode really dear to my heart. You guys know I've been going through a divorce and it's been really difficult to talk about it and also I've

like oh should I talk about it or shouldn't I but the reason I have is because I actually have found it really really difficult to get good information. I've also found that it's been a really lonely process and kind of a bit of a taboo subject to talk about and I really want to change that because do you know what life isn't straightforward things happen that you don't plan and that just happens and I really want to take away a lot of the shame around that and just give those people support that are going through this and another reason I want to do it is because I actually felt really uneducated on marriage I know that sounds a bit of a weird thing to say, but I didn't really understand the contract that you are actually signing. You know, we go into it, it's all about love and being together,

and that's what it should be. But you're also signing a legally binding contract at the end of the day. And I didn't know that's what I was actually doing and what that would mean for my life later down the line so my hope in doing this podcast is to not to put anyone off divorce at all you're not going to get that feeling from this but just to educate just so that you guys can understand the practicalities of it what happens let's say if you do get divorced and things to consider maybe before you even get married, you know, both Natalie and I were married. Natalie is still married. But we're talking about prenups. I thought that just the rich and famous got prenups, but no, I actually think there's a really strong case for a lot of female entrepreneurs to think about it and

consider it. And so all my ask is, even if you're not getting divorced and goodness me, I hope none of you listening have to go through this. So even if you're not, I do goodness me I hope none of you listening have to go through this so even if you're not I do think there is a place to educate yourself so that maybe if someone around you goes through it you can offer that little bit of support and the reason I chose this guest to come on his name is Rafe Palmer he is not just a lawyer but he's actually a business lawyer who turned a divorce lawyer. And his thought process around divorce is actually kind of unique, which when you hear in this episode, I'm kind of sad that it's a new way, a unique way that he thinks.

So that was another reason I wanted to invite him on because I had actually read his book called I Just Want This Done, How Smart, Successful People Get Divorced Without Losing Their Kids, Money and Minds. And when you hear my story unfold, which you will do on later episodes, you'll really understand a little bit in this one why I think that is important. And so, like I said, this is just an open conversation. Me and Natalie are both in two ways. We're coming at it at completely different angles, but an episode that I think you're going to get a lot of takeaways in, whether you'll use yourself or whether you can point someone in the right direction later down the line. Before we dive into this episode though, you know us and we always want to be helping you

guys to make more money. And one question that we get a lot of in our DMs is you telling us you're actually really struggling with Instagram content, content ideas and what to post and wanting to be more consistent, but not actually knowing what to post and when. So Natalie, bless her, has gone away and put together a completely free freebie. Can I say that? A free freebie for you guys. It's called 30 Days of Content. It's a downloadable PDF where Nathalie is going to basically be your social media manager for the next 30 days. Okay. So in this PDF, we're telling you what to post every single day and outlining why you're posting it. All right. So you are not going to feel lost. You're going to be like, okay,

I've got a plan. It's like going to the gym and knowing exactly what you've got to do. Okay. So it's going to help you know what to post and when, which means you are going to be able to show up consistently, which we all know is one of the key things on how to build on Instagram. So by the end of the 30 days, you don't really need someone to handhold you and show you what to post because it's already given you that understanding. You've done it once. You could even go back through the whole month again, all right, as you put that content together. So if you want to grab your free copy, the link will be in the show notes below, okay? It's not going to be free forever though, all right?

I just want you guys to know this. You have to go quick, all right? But it's free now. So go in the show notes. Okay. It's just free for a couple of weeks. Go in the show notes and sign up and download that. All right. So 30 days of content, completely free. It's going to tell you exactly what to post and when, and we're putting it in the show notes below. So I hope you found that useful. And like I said, I hope you really enjoy this podcast and have a lot of insights and takeaways from it, whether you use

them now, you never use them, or you just send someone in the right direction who might need this episode at a later point. So welcome to the podcast, Rafe. We are really excited to have you on today. Thank you. I'm very excited to be here. I appreciate it. And today's going to be an interesting episode because we are talking about the D word and that is divorce. And those who have been listening to the show will know that I am in the process of getting a divorce. And I wanted to actually have you on this podcast because you actually gave me some advice. And the advice that you gave me as I've been going through my divorce was really interesting and a perspective that I had not heard before. And as I've kind of been going through my journey, I feel like no one has the intention to get married and then divorce. But what I've realized

is how uneducated I was, how I didn't really understand for a smart woman, I like to class myself as a smart woman, I didn't really understand the contractual obligation of a marriage. And so I wanted to host this podcast because I was like, hang on a minute, we need to be having this conversation. Yes. So that people know what they are signing, what they are getting into, what a marriage actually means beyond love. Because yes, it has this beautiful story, fairytale ending of this love and you're joining, which is what I went into it with. But also there is the ugly side that not all marriages work out and that's the truth of it. So why is it

important to be having this conversation from your perspective? It's critically important because people spend so much money, time, and energy getting divorced, and they make mistakes when they get married, not realizing the degree of the commitment they're making, as you point out. 60% of marriages under age 25 end in divorce. And if people get married over 25, they have a 25% less chance of getting divorced. So there's a direct correlation between education and economic achievement and success in marriage. People getting married later tend to have much more successful marriages. Wow, interesting.

So younger people don't think about these things. Nobody told them that they need to think this through, that in fact, a marriage is a business partnership. It's a romantic partnership, but it's also a business partnership and it works just like one. Okay. So let's start that then, right? So we're just going to jump in the deep end. We know that you're in love. We know that you want to get married. And I know that it's different from different countries and different states, but when you sign a marriage certificate, what does that contract mean? The contract means that your assets are pooled, no matter who earns them. The assets earned during the marriage are shared between the two of you, generally equally in the event of divorce,

not necessarily. But essentially, like a partnership, you are equal partners and jointly sharing all the assets, even if only one person earns those assets during the marriage. So that's in the game. Also, on top of that, the duty to pay support in many states in the United States. So alimony requirements from the person who is the moneyed spouse or the person making more money to the person making less money. States vary on that, obviously, but that's another significant obligation. And also getting married, there's a significant amount of estate obligations that are automatic as a matter of law. You don't have to sign a will. If you get divorced, sometimes money is going to go to your spouse without you even doing anything. Like if you die and your estate gets probated, even if there's no will, your spouse

may be getting assets depending on the state and the state law. So there are a number of obligations tied in with marriage beyond just the romantic one. So Natalie, I'm curious, right? So when I got married, I was like, oh my goodness, my mom and dad are married. They're still married now, like 40 odd years. Amazing. So I just got married thinking, oh my goodness, I'm getting married. This is it. I never considered any other ties other than I was making this loving tie. Did you, when you married Steven, did you really understand the magnitude of, you know, and Rachel's kind of throw some statistics at us in some detail but what was your kind of thing when you got married mine was kind of different because me and my husband only decided

a week before we were getting married that we were getting married um yeah this is a good story like more of a like oh we can do this visa thing together like when we met it was one of those things like i know i want to be with this person. So it made sense. I didn't necessarily on that day fully feel like I was committing to the rest of my life, but I was committing to this person and I was okay with what that brought. I didn't, I didn't know all the ins and outs, but I had a strong understanding of the 50-50 assets. But since, you know, we got married when we were 25, things have changed significantly. Stephen was the breadwinner at the time. Things have really changed. He's doing incredibly with his company. Boss Babe's doing really well, but we're just in very, very different situations.

And so seeing Danielle go through a divorce, that was a big period of time where me and Stephen were like, let's talk about this idea of a postnnup we have ultimately decided not to get one but I want to talk about that kind of thing today because it was only seeing what Danielle's been going through granted we definitely are part husbands we're in different situations but at the same time like it's been horrifying to see what it really means, especially like Danielle, when you say being a lifestyle business. Yeah, for sure. And I think that's like one thing I want to kind of touch on a little bit more as we kind

of go into this story, because like a lot of, like I say, a lot of people know me from Boss Babe and my partner and I met when we were like super young, like 18 and 21, I think he was at the time. And so we grew up together, but we didn't actually get married until we'd been together for nine years. So it was actually on the higher end of that statistic. And, you know, we had a great marriage at those times and we always, always had separate bank accounts. We never pulled things financially. We always had like separate bank accounts that went into a joint, each putting in the same amount

into a joint. So everything was very, very equal as we were kind of going through our journey. And I think that's probably one of the biggest things that I've really understood how things can change when you start then getting a divorce and how that whole process of emotion and vulnerability and fear starts coming into play. And so whilst obviously I think everyone heads into a marriage being like, oh my goodness, you never head into a marriage. I certainly didn't think I would get into divorce. You know, it has brought up conversations between Natalie and I around a prenup because, oh, a postnup or whatever you want to look like, because that was actually never something I ever considered before entering

my marriage. In fact, my mom and dad had brought me up to feel like you wouldn't, why would you get a prenup? That's like setting yourself up for failure. Like you're admitting, why would you get married then if you want a prenup? And so I went into it like that was never even discussed. And so I think I want to start this conversation for those listening that one, prenup is not a dirty word and neither is postnup. And I think it's suitable in very different situations. And I want to kind of discuss some of those right from the get go. Like, when do you think people should be discussing whether they should have a prenup or not? As soon as possible. Okay, why?

Because it's not the time. First of all, there are legal reasons. So you need to make sure that the people signing the prenup aren't under duress. That's a legal requirement in the United States for prenups. The person can't be under basically a lot of pressure, undue pressure to sign the agreement. Oh, so you can't present them the night before. Yeah, sign this. Right.

That's not a good idea. But also, people will come to us a week before a wedding, a month before the wedding, and they say, well, I want you to read this prenup if another lawyer prepared it or they want us to prepare one. The problem with that is you're already committed. You've got the dress. You've got the expensive wedding. You've got the reception hall.

See you on the back foot. You've spent all this money. The family's committed. People have already bought tickets if it's the expensive wedding. You've got the reception hall. See you on the back foot. You've spent all this money. The family's committed. People have already bought tickets if it's a destination wedding. What happens if things don't go well in the discussions and somebody doesn't want to sign or things get sticky? Now we've got the pressure of the wedding, the family pressure on top of that,

and now the prenup discussions are difficult and we're layering more stress on top of what should be a happy time in your life. So there's sort of just a logical reason to do it as far away from the wedding as possible, as well as a legal reason. But I'll go, I'll take it one step further. When somebody gets engaged, let's say they get engaged maybe a year before the wedding, that's the time to have the conversation because the conversation involves all the important aspects of your future marriage, right? It's about what are we doing with children? What are we going to do with our assets? What do we want to do if one of us dies? What are your thoughts about infidelity? Does that mean, because you don't know if that's going to happen, but you should

have these conversations because it's all about this commitment to a major partnership that theoretically could be lifetime. So the earlier you have that discussion, the easier it is to have that conversation without the pressure of the dress, the wedding, the reception hall, the church, and all the people already committed to come. So it's already difficult enough to have that conversation without layering on the pressure of the wedding itself. And I get that, but who should be having a prenup conversation? So like, is it just people? So, okay, here's my thing. I thought prenups were for like really wealthy people, the people coming into marriages with like, I don't know, like family wealth and things like that.

But my feeling is now, if you're a is going to marriage and not having children, then there should be a prenup on the table. I agree with you. I think far more people should have a prenup than actually have them. Just like an estate plan or will and trust isn't for just the wealthy. It's really for a large cross-section of people the prenup provides a planned landing for people getting divorced a controlled landing rather than just the potential crash landing of a divorce case with no controls so a prenup is relatively inexpensive you can spend anywhere from depending on the where you are and what type of lawyer you hire, $1,500 to maybe $20,000 on a prenup, but you're buying yourself insurance that if it's done properly, it will protect you in the event of

the divorce and also provide the outline for how the case will be resolved. So you're providing, again, a controlled landing for both of you, not just one person, but clear guidance as to how it will be resolved. And you're signing that agreement and it's binding. So let me ask you a question. Do you think I'm crazy for not having one? Do I think you're crazy for not having one? I don't think you're crazy for not having one. I didn't have one when I got married the first time. Do you have one the second time? I absolutely do. And my wife is also my partner in my law firm, SGG Divorce Law. Her name's Julie Goumanon. She and I knew that was something we had to have,

sort of like dentists need to take care of their own teeth. A lawyer, a divorce lawyer, not a prenup. Yeah, I can see that. If I'm advising everybody, we probably should have one ourselves. But initially I was married at 21. We didn't have anything. We just had our educations.

Actually, my first wife was a schoolteacher at the time, and I was just starting out in the practice of, I was actually starting law school. So she was the wage earner at the time, and I wasn't. So certainly, like you said, when you get married, you're not planning to get divorced. And I want to assure people, the prenup is not a plan to get divorced. When you put on a seatbelt, you're not planning to get divorced. And I want to assure people, the prenup is not a plan to get divorced. When you put on a seatbelt, you're not planning to get in an accident. Nobody wants that to happen. But it's better to have and not need than need and not have. If that's the message I would say, that would be it. I don't think you're crazy for not having one. There is such a thing.

I've heard the term poor man's prenup, poor person's prenup. That is the law of each state in the United States is pretty similar that, yes, you'll share the marital property. But if you had property before the marriage and kept it separate, it will remain separate as will the growth in that. So if you had a 401k before the marriage, that portion that you had would remain yours. If you owned a business before the marriage, that remains yours. The income becomes marital, but not the growth in the business itself.

Natalie, do you want to share your, are you open to sharing your perspective on why you feel not? I mean, yours will be a post-snap at this point. Yeah. So for me, so I me so i mean in i think an outsider's perspective to look at it when we first got married we didn't really have a lot steven had some things but we didn't have a lot and since you know we've both grown really significant size businesses however for me personally and this is a very vulnerable share i'm a very one foot out the door kind of person okay i'm always looking at like the 10-year plan i'm a capricorn i've probably thought about the worst things that can possibly happen and i've got a plan for all of them which is really

interesting because then you would think well why don't you have a plan as a prenup but one thing i realized with my relationship is as for quite a long time i was one foot out the door and i wasn't fully giving it my all and so when we had the post-nup conversation and he, he was really open to it, it came about and we're starting to like plan for kids and stuff. And I wanted to, I wanted to put on the table and look at it. And I felt like this was an element, give it, giving me another foot out the door. And I felt like, you know what? Cause we've been through some hard times. If this is really going to work, I need to actually actually give it my all energetically. And so in that moment, I just decided for me that it wasn't the right fit. Absolutely. It's an intensely

personal decision and everyone has to make that decision for themselves. Obviously, a postnup is a bit of a different creature because you're already married. And with a prenup, just the promise of getting married is enough. The marriage closes the deal. There's no consideration required in the prenup to get the prenup to be binding. But in a postnup, you have to give something that's binding. You have to give valid consideration for it. So for example, with kind of the classic example of a very moneyed spouse, like one person has a lot, the other person might not be earning as much, or there's a stay-at-home individual in the marriage.

I had a case, a multi, multi-million dollar case where it had been a long-term marriage and the wife in that case felt that she wasn't empowered, that the husband controlled the finances. And so her insistence was that the finances essentially be divided and stay married. One of her conditions for staying married was, let's divide a large portion of our finances. X amount of it will be mine now. X amount of it will be his now. And there will be a pooled amount also. So it was really a two-part agreement.

Part one was, what are we doing when we're married with our finances? Part two was, what happens in the event we get divorced? And the consideration for that was the substantial amount of assets that she gained from that transfer of assets in part one. So that's kind of a classic post-nup. You've got to give some value for the things that you're asking for in exchange in the post-nuptial agreement. Let's take a quick pause to talk about my new favorite all-in-one platform, Kajabi. You know I've been singing their praises lately because they have helped our business run

so much smoother and with way less complexity, which I love. Not to mention our team couldn't be happier because now everything is in one place so it makes collecting data, creating pages, collecting payment, all the things so much simpler. One of our mottos at Boss Babe is simplify to amplify and Kajabi has really helped us do that this year. So of course I needed to share it here with you. It's the perfect time of year to do a bit of spring cleaning in your business, you know? Get rid of the complexity and instead really focus on getting organized and making things as smooth as possible.

I definitely recommend Kajabi to all of my clients and students. So if you're listening and haven't checked out Kajabi yet, now is the perfect time to do so because they are offering Boss Babe listeners a 30-day free trial. Go to kajabi.com slash Boss Babe to claim your 30-day free trial. That's kajabi.com slash Boss Babe. And just going back to your pre-nurse Natalie or lack of or lack want, I actually

have heard that like I have through this journey, it's really interesting, right? I've never had freaking divorce conversations before. Never. It's never something you bring up to people. Then when you start going through a divorce and inevitably it takes such an emotional toll and a time toll, you do end up talking about it. People around you know that you're going through it. And so it's actually really interesting the conversations that I have had through going from this. I've seen behind the scenes of some very, very successful people and them sharing their experiences with me. And a lot of them got absolutely annihilated in their first divorces, right? And I'm talking like, you know, really, they were on the back foot, which we can definitely talk about when you're the breadwinner one that looks like. And they got married again without prenups i was like damn they were really rolling

the dice yeah really rolling the dice and their feelings were like well yeah like you know if these guys were actually these these people i'm referring to a man they're like we know if we end up divorced like i i want her to have that and I'm like wow that's amazing so I do think like you know it really is and I'm not I don't want this podcast to come across in any way shape or form I'm like yeah everyone should have prenups like I don't feel that way but I do feel like everyone should be educated right on the option to have a prenup because I don't feel like I was. And I wish I had known what that had looked like because that would have maybe had two, maybe two outcomes. One could have been like, having those upfront conversations right from the get go. Or two, when I decided I wanted to

get a divorce, I would have been legally better prepared legally to get out of my marriage. Correct. Because what I started to uncover during the divorce process, old traditional family, which is the 2.4 children where one parent is at work, one parent is at home looking after the children. And in my experience, the laws in the US and the laws in the UK are created to protect that family unit. But if that family unit doesn't exist, you as the breadwinner and the person who's building that part, then end up at the mercy of the other person. Absolutely. In my opinion, unfairly. And until the demographics shifted, I don't know, 20 years ago when women became very successful in business and started having similar success as men or even far better, guys were saying this for decades. So men were saying, I do all this work.

And then she's a stay-at-home mom. And yeah, now the kids are grown and now I have to give all this money. Well, you're right. It was meant to protect somebody who really had no way to protect. And it's a job to stay at home. Let's be like, is it like to raise a family as a job into a household?

It absolutely is. It's, but you're right. The law is really a black and white system dealing with a shades of gray issue. Yeah. So marriage and divorce is really, you know, people, it's a thousand flavors, it's a thousand different variations. And the law is a very binary or black and white system. It's one of the things I talk about in my book is that it's

ill-suited for these issues, children's issues, issues with allocating finances. We have these very kind of black and white equations, like alimony is X and child support is X. And dividing assets, people usually think 50-50, sometimes not, but most of the time it is. And that might not be the best answer for you, which is one reason I advocate alternative dispute resolution and settling the cases out of court. Or a prenup. Or a prenup or a postnup to work out that relationship so you have a controlled landing. But you're right.

It's, you know, when this happens, if you're the moneyed spouse or you're the person putting in more of the effort, it doesn't feel right at all that the other person is getting a large amount of those assets or income, especially if they're able to care for themselves and maybe even maintain the same standard and even maintain the same standard of living. But the equation says you still have to give X amount of dollars to the other person. I like what you said around the law is black and white dealing with a gray area. That's what I felt. And I felt that gray area has been so biased and like i just have found this whole process being on the back foot and just being like well you know right i can't i mean how do i even deal with this there's like nothing you can do almost you feel

very helpless it's like you just have to roll over right and it's it's crazy to witness it's really crazy to witness i just want to ask one. Right. And it's crazy to witness. It's really crazy to witness. I just want to ask one thing, just going back to what you were outlining about a prenup. You were mentioning there was a couple of things. There was money, there was infidelity, and there was, was there something else? Well, really, the prenup is really dealing,

prenups basically deal with division of assets, protecting separate assets and defining what that is, defining when you create joint property and the gain in that property, and then dealing with alimony. Is there going to be alimony? How much will it be? Those kind of things are in there. And also things like health insurance, who's paying for attorney's fees in the divorce, all those types of things can be nailed down in the prenup. Children's issues really can't be. Those are left open because the court needs to approve those since the court needs to look out for the best interest of the children. And there are too many variables. Like when you get married, we don't

know how many kids are going to have. We don't know if they'll, maybe they might have medical issues, God forbid, or who knows. So the court doesn't allow you to have that all nailed down in a prenup. Can you have it in a prenup? Hey, if we don't have children, this is how it's split. If we have children, this is how it's split for the household. You probably couldn't do that. It might depend on the jurisdiction, but you couldn't base it on the children. That's an area the court doesn't like to touch.

You can base it on earnings for each person, how much you've earned potentially, any number of other variables. You can do everything, but about the number of kids really can't do that. I also just want to flag, because I think this is really important. We're sat across the table together and the listeners are probably here. I'm very emotional about this. It fires me up. I am in it right now, guys, I'm not going to lie. And I think this was one of the really important things from our conversation and why I wanted to have you on, Rafe,

because your book that you have written is called, I Just Want This Done, How Smart, Successful People Get Divorced Without Losing Their Kids, Money, and Minds. That's a freaking really good title thank you and honestly I try and say that in my head so many times like I don't even have kids I don't even know like my heart goes out to anyone who divorces with children I think it just adds a whole nother layer to this but I think this is what I really want to get over as well when you

are going through a divorce anyone listening to this who hasn't been divorced you don't realize the emotions that it will evoke inside you I would say I'm a very very level-headed person I'm Natalie will tell you I'm really hard to rile like aren't I I'm like pretty chill myself she's not agreeing with me right now but it's it's been a roller coaster for me let's say and so I want to just kind of you gave me some advice and you're like Danielle put your business hat on because we had a conversation I was getting really emotional I was getting probably a little bit irrational I was getting a little bit fiery I was like this is not bad I want to stamp my foot like I'm in that gray zone, right? That's right.

So, like, I felt so hard done by. And your words to me were, Danielle, if this was a business decision, you would not solve a $100,000 problem with a $200,000 legal bill. Absolutely. Calm down. Right. And I was like, okay. So, talk to me, like about what you see to get advice.

But people who let their emotions govern their decision-making process usually end up on the downside in a divorce case. Because, look, marriage is the intersection of everything we hold dear. Love, sex, money, and children for some people. And when those things get disrupted, we get upset. It makes us scared, angry, lonely, confused, any number of natural human emotions, because we all have a need to be loved. We have a need to be cared for, respected, take care of our children, you know, and feel safe. And those things get messed with in a big way in a divorce. When that happens, people get upset and it's easy to understand that people get emotional. When they get emotional, they leave their rational

brain and go to their animal brain. And the animal brain says fight. Or, you know, when we get angry, we feel threatened, we get defensive, and then we want to fight. It's as human as anything. Fight or flight response is hardwired into everybody. So understanding that feeling in yourself, taking a step back, rationally thinking about the situation, and making careful decisions about where you're headed in the divorce case is going to save you a tremendous amount of money, time, and emotional energy, not just for you, but for your family and your friends. So I'm really glad you asked that. That's really at the core of the whole book.

The title comes from what everybody says at some point in a divorce case. I just want this done. Divorces don't age well. Nobody likes being in a divorce. They want the divorce over. They want to be divorced. That's one thing divorce lawyers need to learn. People don't want a divorce lawyer. They want to be divorced. We're the tool for the job,

but they want to be done and they want to be done sooner. The number one degree of client satisfaction or measure of client satisfaction in our business is what we call time to close. The time from the opening of the case to the end of the case. The number one client satisfaction measure. It's been proven time and again. And we monitor those numbers because nobody likes it to drag out. But if you can use your head and not your heart, and that's not easy to do.

I know. I've been through it myself. You can avoid a tremendous not your heart, and that's not easy to do. I know I've been through it myself. You can avoid a tremendous amount of heartache and expenditure. I'm hoping that a lot of people are not listening to this going like, oh yeah, I want a divorce. But if they are, because I mean, let's be realistic. I've had so many people in my DMs. Like I'm a young 30 year old getting a divorce and there's not actually many people talking about that. Either people will keep it to themselves or they're in their forties and fifties getting divorced. There's not,

there's a small select group of us. And I find it really hard to find people sharing their stories or to hear conversations being had around like, oh, I really don't think I'm in the right relationship. Like this is not the relationship that I want to be in. It's not going to serve me for the next 50 years, 60 years of my life. I think I made a mistake and I think I need to get out of it. So for those people listening who are kind of thinking, I got married young or I've been married and I think I might have made a mistake. What are some of the things that they should think about before filing for divorce?

Like what are legal preparation or mental preparations that they should do? Because I feel like I was very ill-equipped with that. I think number one, and I got a lot of perspective when I went through my own divorce because when you're an outside observer, even though I handled hundreds of divorce cases and it's

sat through innumerable consultations with people telling their stories, it's just different when it happens to you. And you gain a certain degree of additional empathy for people by going through it yourself. And it changes your perspective. And it has for the folks in our firm who've been divorced, it becomes much more real and personal. Certainly not a prerequisite to be a divorce lawyer, but it gave me a real perspective. And to answer that question, if people are thinking about getting divorced, I would urge them to talk to a counselor who's familiar with

marriage and divorce situations, preferably somebody a little older who's been married. In their state or country. Yeah, correct. States are different. Exactly right. So that they have that additional perspective. And I had an excellent counselor, a gentleman named John Duffy in the Chicago area, who gave me tremendous perspective. And I said, I'm paying you for your unbiased opinion. I don't want a cheerleader. I want you to tell me, I'm going to tell you about my background, my situation,

where I came from, where our marriage came from, where I think we're going, what I think I want to do, but I want your honest opinion because your friends and family, they're good, but they're not as good as an unbiased observer. Yeah, they're so biased. Because they should be. They love you. Yeah, you want that. They're your friends and they're going to be your cheerleader. They're going to be in your corner and you need that. But you also need somebody who's going to tell you just the unbiased. Yeah, and get you grounded in reality so that you can make the best decision and evaluate,

what are my concerns about this marriage? What do I think are the things that, what are the problems I think we have in the marriage? Can they be fixed? If not, what's the exit strategy? And if so, what's the path towards getting back together or staying together? So doing a rational analysis of pros and cons with someone else as your observer, just like in a business decision, is also smart when you're looking at your marriage. Because just making a snap decision, or I'm done, and I want to be out of this marriage or whatever in the moment,

that may seem like a good idea, but it has such huge long-term implications, especially if you have kids, that you need to take the time to think it through. That's a chapter in your book. Yes. Are you sure you want a divorce? Are you sure you want to get divorced? Reconciliation, and then getting that counselor, potentially marriage counseling. And one piece of advice I'd give folks who are even thinking they might be unhappy with

their marriage is get a marriage counselor early. Don't wait till you're done. That's when you're done. It's too late. There's a certain emotional bridge we cross in relationships, whether they're business or personal. Once you've made it across that bridge, you're not going back. So before you get on the bridge or you think you're going to step foot on the bridge, get the counselor early, privately. You don't have to tell your spouse or whatever. Go on your own. But then ask to get marriage counseling with your spouse, just like in a business relationship. At the first sign of trouble, that's when you need to have the conversation. And that's really, really powerful. Like you say, just having those conversations early and

preparing yourself and equipping yourself with knowledge and education and that support system right from the get-go. So another question that I have, which again, I feel is kind of niche, but we have an audience of women listening to this, a lot of who are growing their own businesses. I really want you to talk around how people who have small businesses can protect themselves in this because the people that I've spoke about and the people I've heard the horror stories from are the people who own businesses. And they're not huge trillion dollar businesses or multi, multi-million dollar businesses.

They're small lifestyle businesses that they get their income from, that they get their lifestyle on. And when they come to get divorced, that's threatened. All of that is threatened. So can you just share what you've seen and what are... Yeah, absolutely. The most successful people who are getting divorced if they own a business, typically they work early on with a valuation

expert that's someone well-recognized in their area, and they share all their information about the business with that person, get an early idea from a valuation expert what the business is worth. What's interesting is different types of businesses are valued differently. So, for example, a law firm is really a stream of income from several people working together in a law business, maybe an accounting practice or a dental practice, something like that, where there's no machines, there's no inventory. Most law firms don't have a brand to sell. They don't have a lot of brand equity. So it's really the individual people generating the revenue. And once those people are gone, there's really

nothing to buy. So that's one reason why it's difficult to buy and sell those businesses, for one thing, because when the people are out of it, those businesses don't usually have a lot of value. If you built brand equity, that's very hard to value for one thing. And the revenue stream in a business similar to Boss Babe is entirely dependent on both of you working in it. There is no Boss Babe without the two of you. So it makes it very unique and tricky to value for anyone looking at it from a valuation standpoint. That's why you need to work with someone who has a lot of experience in valuation early on to start talking about that stuff. One thing I guess I want to assure people if you own a business, if you go to court and you end up

in a court process, the court isn't interested in destroying the business. That's not how these things work. What ends up typically happening is some kind of buyout arrangement. A price is agreed to or the court determines a value and works out a payment plan, usually over a course of many years. Nobody's interested in bankrupting the company because that's the cash that pays for the children, pays for people to support themselves, etc. So a normal fear of a business person is, oh my God, I have to dissolve the business and give half of the stock to the other, my ex-spouse. We can't run the business together. That's not how it works. There's pretty clear law on that. There's public policy interest in not destroying a business that's essentially feeding the family. But what about in a situation

like, I mean, similar to ours, but let's just say your business was making $10 million and you owned 100% of it and it got valued at, say, $50 million. So it's not crazy multiplier. It's valued at $50 million. Is there a world in which someone's divorcing that business owner and says, okay, well, then I'm entitled to $25 million and that person needs to go into debt to pay that money? So that would be a very unusual outcome. I couldn't really see that happening. The typical valuation difference would be somebody saying the business is worth $10 and the other person saying it's $13 or know, but so the differences are more like that. In our state, in Illinois, the court can't go in the middle. The court has to pick one or the other. So yeah, there can be a battle of experts at a trial, which is one reason I advocate negotiating these things and having a controlled landing rather than going to trial, because now you're

putting your future in the hands of a person who doesn't know a lot about you and is trying to learn about you in a series of essentially short meetings, a couple hours at a time hearing testimony of witnesses. It's not a great way to get a good picture about you, your life, and your business or your family. So negotiating it is the best option. But with respect to valuing the company, the only best way to be ready for that, if you come. Then also engage your expert to critique the other expert because they're going to need to analyze. And also the credentials are important

because you're going to have potentially a battle of two experts. So you want the person with the better credentials. That person then is going to be critiquing the report and the analysis of the other expert. And that analysis will be very important. That's really good advice. Like I did not know that coming when I was first getting divorced. And I felt like if I'd been told that earlier on, then that would have influenced things. And like you said, the key to a divorce is speed. Yes, speed is life.

Yeah. And so I think that's actually a really great advice for anyone thinking about it. We haven't spoken about children because Natalie and I obviously don't have children, but I really just kind of want to get home. Obviously, a divorce is not ideal for any family situation, but obviously, seeing family members and stuff go through divorces, there are situations where actually a divorce is more favorable than the parents being together for the children's welfare. And how do you advise people who are divorcing who have children to look at this process? Thank you. Actually, if I could, I'd like to cover one thing you mentioned, the last point you mentioned, and then I'll get to the children's issue.

The thing about speed being critical, if you're in a growth business, if your revenue is increasing and you're having success, as the divorce proceeds, people don't realize the dollar values can go up. The numbers move. So if your business is on a rocket ride upwards, the sooner you get done, the better off you are because as you're making money, you're just throwing that into the marital pot. People make a mistake on this all the time. They look at the number at the beginning of the divorce case and they think those are the numbers. No, they keep moving the whole time.

So you have a divorce case that takes one, two, three plus years. Three years? Oh yeah, in Cook County in Chicago, divorce can be three plus years. What? If you go to trial. Yes, absolutely. I cannot imagine that.

I did not realize that. Right. And even in the counties where a quick divorce at trial is like a year. Oh my goodness. So you can imagine what can happen with a business inside two or three years. It could be a tremendous amount of additional revenue. The valuation can change. The value of the company goes up.

So that's why it's important for the moneyed spouse to assess the value of their case early and essentially maybe give a little more than they should early to prevent that growth later on. So the message I would have for folks who are on the way up is assess things early, have a rational look at it, and make an offer early, and really try to make an effort to get it done because time is your enemy. Absolutely. If you're on the other side, I guess it's different. Then I guess time is your enemy. Absolutely. If you're on the other side, I guess it's different. Then I guess time is your friend and you can wait. And that happens. People try to drag it out to try to watch you. Maybe there's a gain in the value of the marriage, the marital estate,

but that's where speed is so important. I just wanted to cover that because it's so critical. No, I think that's a great, great point. I think a lot of, I didn't realize that either. I mean, I do come into this conversation. I had the same conversation with my lawyers like hey if you go to court they're like you're looking like next year what are you valued at then and the year after that and it's like it's so interesting it's and again why I wanted to have this conversation because people don't know Natalie you're like three years like yeah like you know to get a divorce you know wrapped up within a year you're not looking at court you're're doing that through negotiations. And if anything, I would definitely say my communication techniques are definitely improving, I'm sure. So I'm holding on to I'm learning so much right now.

But yeah, like, I do think that it's important, like you say, to just lay these things out. So people really do understand what this process looks like. Because again, I have not heard it spoken about. So yeah, let's come back to the kids. Please, absolutely. Because there's going to be a lot of people listening with children. And I think that's a really valid point. Absolutely.

And I discuss do's and don'ts with children in the book. And it seems like common sense advice. But these are things I've gleaned over 20 years of representing divorce clients. And we in our firm have seen that the first thing is always put the children first. So it's very tempting when, you know, again, when we're emotional, we're upset. People tend to get very inward focused in divorce because

we're emotional, we're hurt, and we are seeking comfort and solace and the kids sometimes get pushed to the back. And it's critical, absolutely critical that you sort of suck it up and put the children up front because they will remember this for the rest of their lives. That the worst day of my life was the day that my first wife and I told our children we were getting divorced. I still don't like thinking about it. I write about it in the book. And it's horrible. And even when you do it right, follow the recommendations of a counselor and all that, it's one of the worst things you'll ever do.

So putting the children first, giving them comfort, certainty, trying to nail down things so that the kids are very selfish by nature. They want to know what's in it for them. How are things going to be for them? Are they going to be the same? Are they going to see their parents like they did before? Are they going to live in the same house? And they're scared. No kid, even in a tumultuous marriage, children want their parents to be, to stay married. So understanding where your kids are coming from is critical. Putting them first is critical. And trying to avoid bad-mouthing your spouse, especially in front of the kids, that's a big no-no.

Don't bad-mouth mom or dad in front of the children. Leave the adult stuff away from the children. Try to keep their lives as consistent as possible. As much as you can keep the same is good. So stay in the same school district if at all possible. Keep the same friends if at all possible. As much as you can keep the same is good. So you stay in the same school district, if at all possible, keep the same friends, if at all possible. So when we separated, we have a place, we have a vacation home, and I made sure to keep taking them to the vacation place in the summer, just like I always had to have consistency. And my first wife was so great

about cooperating with me. We didn't get into these crazy fights about the children. When people treat kids like possessions, like their property, that's when it gets really ugly. When people say, I call them balance sheet parents. It's like, well, I want X amount of time. Well, I want X amount of time. Well, what do the kids want? Now, if they're little children, they don't know. But if it's a 15 or 14-year-old, what do they want to do? They usually want to be with their friends. They want to have their school activities and try to continue as normal as possible. And certain parenting schedules might be really bad for them. So there's so much involved in this. but the critical thing is put the kids first, think about what their needs are, and be flexible with your ex. I can't emphasize that enough. Also

support your ex too, because they're going to need your help sometimes, and helping them is setting a great example for your children, and you're going to look good to your kids, that you care about the family, because you're still a family even though you're divorced. You have children together, and you're going to be a family for the rest of time. You're going to have weddings, graduations, other family events where you're going to want to be together, and you want to sit on the other side of the stadium when your daughter's playing basketball, or can you sit together and be civil? Yeah. so important i've got family members like you're saying my one of my family members really had to consider like where her parents were staying for her wedding they had to be on

different tables for having my parents at my graduation it was a nightmare and the way they handled it you know i still remember to this day my parents getting divorced and i was three so i think it's so incredibly important. And I've seen what it's like when it's not handled appropriately. Yeah. You can talk to anyone and they'll have a story, personal story like that. And you still remember it. Yeah.

That's the indelible mark that our actions have in our children that we can avoid if we're careful. Now, if you have a spouse who's abusive or whatever, that's something that's beyond your control. But what we're getting at is the typical situation where people get along relatively okay, but people get sort of sucked into potentially fighting over the children, and it's just another bone of contention with everything else. And it's so unfortunate, and it's avoidable if people just put the effort into it. I tell a story in my book about one of my son's, a girlfriend my son had in high school,

her father made her go to his summer place every weekend in the summer, even though she had no friends there, had nothing to do there. It wasn't like on a lake or anything. And the gentleman just brought his significant other up there who she didn't really like. And so she was just forced to sit there all weekend. And she said to my son, when I'm 18, I'm never going to see my father again. Is that a price worth paying? That's the kind of thing that happens. When you're 18, when the kids turn 18, all bets are off. The parenting agreement that you fought over in court goes out the window, and the kid does what they want to do. Do you know what I think has been a theme for me?

And I just want to say with this podcast, I'm not sat here condoning, I know none of us are condoning divorce, but we really wanted to have this conversation because like it happens life happens it does not turn out how you plan to and i think avoiding these conversations is actually really damaging and not having them up front so that everyone kind of knows what cards are on the table but one thing i've noticed is like a theme throughout the conversation rave is so you're talking around like you know okay getting advice right from an early age or you know getting going and having counseling on your relationship or going in and finding out what a divorce is going to look like you with you ahead of time and this is one thing that we had a conversation around is like

choosing your lawyers too right and i just want to highlight this because again it's not spoken about and people do not understand it so my biggest takeaway was choose your lawyers wisely. There is a misconception, like when you're getting divorced, it's like, oh my God, armors come out, like the swords come out, the shields come out, like you're going into battle. But I think that's the worst way that you can actually address a divorce, particularly if you have children as well, right? That's when they're going to get the most harm. And my experience is some law firms, divorce law firms like to litigate. They like to go at it, you know, really fight it out. They will do all negotiations through divorce lawyers. And we know that's expensive.

It gets fricking nasty and it just is never really ending on any good terms. And again, that's one of the other takeaways for me is like choosing a legal team who support you in going through mediation, who support you in having contact still, if you can, with your ex, particularly if children are involved. Because I do think it's very easy to lawyer up and go after the most expensive, notorious lawyers possible. But ultimately, I think that does cost money for everybody. Everyone involved, it costs more for. Would you agree? Correct. That type of lawyer or law firm can be the right tool for the right job. But too often people go there thinking, well, that's going to be the best for me in all

circumstances. And just like you have several tools in a toolbox, it's good to have an attorney that is adaptable and can not only fight, but also negotiate. Yeah. For us, battle or combat is a last resort. We should negotiate, we should evaluate the case, negotiate first, and then litigate as a last resort. Sometimes you have to do it, but hopefully you don't have to. And if you litigate, there's a way to litigate an operating court in a smart way and still try to approach negotiations all along the way. And don't wait till the trial to start trying to settle the case. So you're absolutely right. Our system, again, is a binary system. It's a win-loss court system. It's a way it's built,

the UK, US. And I talk about this in the book. Our system of training lawyers is geared toward trial practice. It's geared toward litigation. The very way we get taught is mostly about courtrooms and litigation. And there are only a couple of alternative dispute resolution courses in law schools. So what you learn once you become a practicing lawyer is you're surprised to find out that it's a lot less about gunfights in court and a lot more about negotiating, either in the hallway of the courthouse, in a conference room in your office, or in the back room in the courthouse talking to the judge in their office, negotiating in the back about a case. And you find out so

much, so many cases settled, 95% on average in the United States. Well, and you find out so much, so many cases settled, 95% on average in the United States. Well, our point is let's negotiate those and get that 95% to settle sooner. Let's not get to the court flex. Exactly. Like the one case I had where I was in court for over a year in Chicago, finally settled the case even during the trial because it just went on and on. And finally, the other side realized that the offer we'd made before the trial because it just went on and on. And finally, the other side realized that the offer we'd made before the trial was actually a reasonable one. And they were just burning through tremendous amount of assets to get there. And they realized there wouldn't be

anything left worth fighting for if we kept going at trial. It's like that whole thing we started with, don't solve a $100,000 problem with a $200,000 legal bill. Right. And that truism, that's true whether it's a $5,000 issue or a $200,000 issue. I talk about cost-benefit analysis throughout, just like you make that analysis in business. It's critical to make that analysis in a divorce case. The question you should ask yourself while you're in that process is, is this thing I want getting me more divorced? Am I getting closer to being done or am I just stirring the pot? Yeah, quite true.

And I have one last question because I feel like this is going to come up for a lot of listeners. We have some amazing, successful women listening to this and men and they build businesses. And do you know what? They're so freaking good at building these businesses.

Their spouses join them in it. So what is like, I mean, you actually work with your wife right now. Okay. So what are the things entering a business partnership that's also a marriage? Like what are the things that people should be wary of? Make sure they know just like what's your general advice to those types of people listening, even if they're not thinking about divorce? Sure. Being similar to the discussion about marriage, being sure you understand each other's goals and concerns and your values is so important when you're entering a business enterprise with your spouse or somebody from a committed long-term relationship. And also working out the exit strategy for the business, what happens if we

don't get along? If you have a business attorney, they'll tell you, and I was a business lawyer before I did divorce work, having the shareholders agreement, that's the prenup for a business. That's what a shareholders agreement is. That's what a LLC operating agreement is. That's what a partnership agreement is. It's the prenup for a business or a postnup, I guess. So it creates a controlled landing in the event things don't work out. So similarly to the marriage conversation, the conversation should be had about what are our expectations in this business? What if one of us puts in more hours than the other?

How are we going to handle compensation? What about equity? Do we plan on sharing equity with anybody else? You know, and talking about those things in the future, similar to talking about children, what if we add new people in the business later? How big do we want this to grow? You know, having those goals lined out and having those conversations at the outset will help avoid a tremendous amount of grief later if things don't work. So true. I think for me, the biggest takeaway is around any relationship, whether it be marriage or business, it's all around communication. And if I think back on my marriage, I was definitely

guilty of not discussing things that were bothering me early, early on. And I think you say like having those conversations early, saying if something's upsetting you, saying if something's not right, saying if it's like, hey, you know, I want to have this discussion if this happens in the future. And I think that personally is my lesson. Like I'll always know now to bring things way more in the future and discuss worst case scenarios.

Because when you can discuss them from a place of love is way better than discussing them from a place of hate. Absolutely. And having the conversation when you're in a good mood and things are good, that's the time to have the conversation. It's like when any disaster plan, you should make it when, not when the disaster is happening. It should be planned out well in advance when everything's okay

and you can rationally think about it. And you'll learn something about each other and probably the relationship usually will grow into a better place with the open communication. And I learned that the hard way too. I was married 24 years before I got divorced. Like you, I internalized a lot of stuff. My parents are still married like yours. They never had any arguments in front of us. Same. I never saw any conflict. My sister and I had what I would call an ideal childhood. Same.

And I didn't know what to do when I was unhappy. We would talk occasionally, and you don't really understand each person's personality differences. They tend to, I tend to think that over time, you actually get more like you were. I actually, I have this thing about, I don't think people change. I think times change. But I think you stick with your core person of who you were. I could not agree more. I feel like I'm actually more like my 18-year-old self.

I feel like it's been a full circle. I think you try on hats. Yeah. And you try on different personas. And then you realize, actually, I'm okay with who I was when I was 16, 18 years old. And your core personalities, I think, formed at a very young age. And over time, when people say we grew apart, I think what they're saying is,

I realized who I was and I realized who you were. And it took some time. And I'm not okay with that. Or maybe you are and you stay married, that's great, but maybe it doesn't work and you realize, like you said, 30, 40, 50 years out, I don't see that working in the future. And I'm definitely not advocating divorce. Law firms have plenty of work to do without people rushing to get divorced. I advocate people trying to stay married. I'm a believer in the institution. I got remarried.

So I just think it should be done with intent and some forethought, just like any good business. With education too. Yeah. And I think my biggest takeaway too, it's just awareness. I really do believe there's no one size fits all for everyone. Sure. But actually going into it with your eyes wide open, knowing what, okay, if I choose this path, this is the possible outcome. Am I okay with it?

Versus if I choose this path and just knowing it and having all the information to decide, you know what, this feels right for me. And this is for the time being. And I think that's a really nice way to go about it. Absolutely. Well, thank you, Ray, for coming on the podcast. My pleasure. Thank you. Do you want to just share some of the places that our listeners can, you know, follow you, hear from you, buy your book? Because, you know, I feel like some people are going, okay, I need this book right now. My book, I Just Want This Done is available on Amazon, Barnes & Noble. Working on the audio book now, I Just Want This Done is available on Amazon, Barnes & Noble. Working on the audio book now, I'm recording the audible version.

So it's easy to find online. The website is IJustWantThisDone.com. Very easy to locate. Thank you so much for the opportunity. I really appreciate meeting both of you in person and having a chance to come on the show. Thank you for coming on and having a difficult conversation, but we opened this podcast up with one that is about education and just information. It's my pleasure. Thank you. Thank you so much. Okay, I feel like I'm doing a Marvel film right now. Because you know, when you think the film's ended, and it's not, and there's this extra hidden bit on the end this is exactly like this part because before you go I want to reach out and ask you to mark your calendar with a couple of dates for the Boss Bay podcast because we have some seriously epic guests this month and I want to

make sure you know about it now first of all the first week of October, we are actually releasing two power episodes, you guys. On the October 5th, we have Mel Robbins as a guest. I've been reading her book ever since we had a conversation and it's freaking phenomenal. She's sharing how failure actually paved the way for success and the power of, it sounds very simple, but her high high five habits which happens to be the name of her new book and it's so so good then October 7th we are having Jay and Radhi Shetty joining us it's actually their first ever podcast interview as a couple and the conversations we have got to have with them are so impactful you're gonna really love it it's a real behind the scenes and they're talking about how their new tea brand has just dropped but also so much wisdom about working together and how they've had ups and downs in their

relationship and all the behind scenes of that honestly i'm really really excited about this one and probably not doing it justice right now and even just sharing these little bits with you but then coming up after that is october the 12th and we're chatting with Lily Sabri who is a fitness and lifestyle influencer and get this she went from 30k followers to 3 million in one year so you can believe we asked her all the social media questions about growth engagement that algorithm seriously all the things and then October 19th I told you guys there's a lot coming up. We're having Brendan Bouchard. He's coming in and joining us and offering us so much impactful advice

and wisdom about growing your business, leading your team, and knowing what the needle movers are so that you can head into Q4 being really, really prepared. We've actually been incorporating his advice ever since we recorded this episode at Boss Babe, and it's already making a massive, massive difference.

So, like I said october the podcast lineup is insane such powerful episodes such amazing conversation and well worth your time so make sure you have subscribed and mark this in your calendar just drop me a dm at daniel county and let me know what you're most excited about okay because i always really want to know which were your favorite episodes and also who else do you want to see so if you have any guest ideas as well I told you it was worth listening to this whole bit rant at the end if you have any more guest ideas drop them to me as well because I'm always always ready to bring the most epic people on here to share more of their knowledge with boss babes just like yourself so this is actually the end now so I'll see you on the next episode