the bossbabe podcast - 197. Behind The Scenes Of Business, Leadership + Motherhood with Lunya Founder Ashley Merrill

Episode Date: December 14, 2021

Real talk: the idea that you should be able to balance motherhood, running your business, leading your team + every other piece of your life without any help is a total myth.  Period. And on this week’s episode of The BossBabe Podcast, we’re chatting with Lunya founder + CEO, Ashley Merrill, about just that.  From why it’s important to ask for help, to how you can strategically build your team + why rest is a total non-negotiable – we’re covering it all.  Join us this week for a very candid conversation that takes a look at the real, behind-the-scenes of business + motherhood. You don’t want to miss it. Listen now! Highlights: Why becoming a mother gave Ashley Merrill the push she needed to start her business Ashley’s refreshing perspective on the realities of motherhood  A sneak peek into the design details that make Lunya’s sleepwear unique  The questions you need to ask yourself when starting a business How to hire the right people to support your brand What to really look for when hiring senior leadership Links: The Société Lori Harder’s Holiday Survival Guide  Lunya.co (Use code FOR-BOSSBABES to save $$) lahgo.co Follow: BossBabe: @bossbabe.inc Natalie Ellis: @iamnatalie Danielle Canty: @daniellecanty Ashley Merrill: @ashley__merrill

I realized it was only fear holding me back because I was realizing, you know, yes, I don't know how to do this that I don't understand and also able to find smart people that can like help be a part of something or teach me or, you know, whatnot. So even though that was a barrier, that wasn't a reason not to do it. A boss babe is unapologetically ambitious and paves the way for herself and other women to rise, keep going and fighting on. She is on a mission to be her best self in all areas. It's just believing in yourself, confidently stepping outside her comfort zone to create her own vision of success. Welcome to the Boss Babe podcast, the place where we share with you the real behind the scenes of building successful businesses, achieving big performance

and learning how to balance it all. I'm Danielle Canty, president of Boss Babe and one of your co-hosts today. Now I will shortly be joined by Natalie. She's joining me on this episode, but I want to just come on and give you a little bit of a rundown about what's in store, because let me tell you, we covered a lot. We covered things from motherhood, as you can imagine, during Natalie Natalie's latest news she wanted to get the real behind the scenes of what it is to be a mother and a business owner so some of you are going to be nodding your head some of you are going to be like me going oh my goodness that sounds really hard how are they going to do this all things but it was a very enlightening episode Ashley also shared all of her tips about hiring the things that you should do and the things that you shouldn't,

and perhaps the people too, hey? No, in all seriousness, Ashley shared some amazing tips on hiring. And I feel like to really build a business, it's so important that you are supported by an incredible team. So grab your notepad and pen to discuss that for sure. And on top of that, we really learned why Ashley started her luxury sleepwear brand in the first place, Lunya. And if you haven't already, you are going to be obsessed, obsessed with Lunya by the end of this podcast episode. I can assure you of that one thing, because you are not only going to see if you're watching on, if you want to go over to the YouTube and see there how beautiful Ashley looked in her Lunya set. But you will hear Natalie and I rave about how

comfortable it is because let's be honest, I feel like jeans, you know, denim jeans were the victim of COVID. You know, I generally have a rule now. I just don't wear them anymore. Maybe on a Saturday. That's it. That's all they come out for. Now I live for the cute, chic jogger pants, which Lunya does so well. And I basically live in them. Like why would I sit in jeans anymore? It just does not make any sense to me. So there we are. That was one of my big learnings from the COVID pandemic was actually, I don't want to sit in jeans for the rest of my life. So there we go. If you are in need of beautiful, comfortable, chic joggers or day wear or night wear for that matter, you definitely want to check Lunya out. And you are actually

getting a very special gift from us. You're going to get $20 off your first purchase of $100. All you need to go and do is check out lunya.co and you're going to put in the code 4-bossbabes with an s on the end so 4-bossbabes to get $20 off your first purchase I promise you you are going to be obsessed with this brand you will hear me and Natalie we've been long-term customers prior to Ashley coming on to the podcast prior to this partnership that we've been doing with them, we are obsessed. So I would encourage you, whether you are looking for little Christmas gifts for someone else, or a little Christmas gift for yourself, I'm a big fan of those, or if you want to like send links to your partner to buy, that's also a great tip. I shall definitely be doing that with my

family members. I'm just like, here, here's my link. You know what to buy me. And let me tell you what I'm sipping on right now, because I'm enjoying my Peak Matcha Latte. It's my afternoon pick-me-up, that little boost to get me through the afternoon meetings I'm really not looking forward to. You know, come on, we all have those, right? And let me tell you you it is as delicious tasting as it is mood boosting energy giving and performance enhancing and I've been using Peaks Sun Goddess Matcha for some time because in my opinion it's the best on the market and I trust it because I don't know if you know this I actually didn't but not all matcha is created equal. So for those of you who don't know, matcha has amazing antioxidant powers, which is why it's good for digestion and skin. But it's only actually got those superpowers

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if you want to kind of mix up your matcha recipes a little bit, that recipe book is insane it's so so good like all the different ways that you can utilize it so go to peaktea.com forward slash boss babe and use the code boss babe at checkout and you'll receive an additional five percent off this limited time bundle with gifts and the code actually applies site wide so peak is spelled p-i-q-u-e-t.com forward slash boss babe and honestly don't you don't even need to trust just my opinion on it if you go there you'll see 15,000 five-star reviews so you can give it a try and they also do a 30-day satisfaction guarantee as well so you can get your money back if you don't love it but I'm pretty sure you will anyway back to the episode Ashley was

absolutely incredible you are going to love her and not only is she the founder of Lunya and Largo so Largo is the boys brand for reinventing sleepwear so she's got the women's and the men's go check them both out but she's also the co-founder of the deep she is the chairwoman of outdoor voices and an investor into companies she believes creates opportunity and to move humanity forward so honestly an incredible woman we are so honored and blessed to have her come on the podcast so if you haven't already grab a pen and paper you're gonna love it share with us your favorite takeaways with myself at danielle tacanti you can share with natalie at i am natalie and also at boss babe.incbabe.inc. And if you haven't already, if you haven't already checked out our YouTube channel, go search Boss Babe, find us on there. And also you're going to be

able to check out how gorgeous Ashley looked in her linear washable silk wear. You're going to be obsessed. All right, guys, without further ado, let's dive in. So Ashley, welcome to the podcast we are so excited to have you here and what natalie and i have been doing recently is really diving deep in when we get guests in so i really want to start with a question around how did finding out you were pregnant help me make the decision to start your business because I know those two worlds came together. Yes, they did. So actually the kind of way I had envisioned it in my head was I was going to go to business school and then maybe we'd start a family around the same time. So I started business school in September 2012 and my husband and I decided, let's start thinking about having a family. This would be a good timing. I had decided to focus on school and not be working at the same time.

And so, okay, great. And then, so I started school early September and I found out I was pregnant late September. So it happened, we were lucky and it happened fast for us. And then the second that I got pregnant, I had this feeling, which was, you know, this idea that I had been kind of mulling over in my head for a long time. It had been something that kind of like kept bubbling up for me, this opportunity. It actually, it is a good idea. And I realized that the thing that had held me back from starting Wunya and getting into the sleepwear opportunity was I was afraid to fail. And then the second I became pregnant, that really like, it was like I had total clarity on that. I realized this is not one of those ones that I'm not doing because it's a bad idea. This is totally one I'm not doing because I'm afraid. And then the whole stakes changed because I realized, oh my gosh, now I'm going to have to tell my kids that I didn't do the things that I dreamed of. I didn't

take this chance because I was afraid. And I thought, oh, that feels worse than doing it and failing, you know? And so it literally, it changed the scales, you know? And so that was, that was a big moment. And that was ultimately, I decided I'm going to do it because now there's something worse than failing. I love that. And it's so interesting that, you know, that life-changing moment, I feel like could send you in two paths. It could be like, okay, no, I haven't got time for it now that I know versus like, oh, actually now I'm inspired because I have a why that's so powerful that motivates me to like say now is the time. Yes. Yes. And one thing that I want to ask, and I know this question has a lot of

connotation that we don't ask men these questions, but as women, it's something that we do think about. I know for me, when I got pregnant, so many worries popped into my head. How am I going to keep running at the pace I'm running at? You know, am I going to be there and present for my kids? What's maternity leave looking like as an entrepreneur? I mean, so many questions. And I really look to women like you who are role models, who are doing both at a really high standard. And how did that narrative enter your mind? It's like, you know what? I can do the two things at once. Yeah. It feels like a lot of pressure. I'm going, oh my gosh, I don't know that I am doing those things very well. I feel like all I feel generally is I'm keenly aware of

all the balls I'm dropping and all the ways I could be better and all of this. So I listened to you going, oh God, I don't know that I'm actually living up to that. But, but good, at least on the outside, I'm creating that facade. So it's great. I love that you just not, can we just say that you just normalize that for a lot of people? So many women are going to be listening to this being like, I feel like I do not have everything together, but it's the same thing. Everyone looks into someone else's window. It's like, oh, you've got your shit together. No, none of us have. Let's just start there. Yes. It's not together. And I have glimpses where I feel like, okay, this is what it's supposed to feel like. And it never lasts very long, but then it's a moment where I'm like, okay, I got this.

I was freaked out as it sounds like you're kind of starting to feel. Yeah. And I think a lot of it, it's been an iterative process. But it's iterative for a lot of reasons. It's iterative because the needs of my company have shifted over time. My needs of my children have shifted over time. And my partnership with my husband has changed and evolved over time. So I had decided, and I think this is really one of those things that like everyone has to kind of figure out what's right for them. For me, I was less excited about the baby years. And I was like, speaking of owning that, I just really didn't

love the baby years. I was exhausted. I don't really love, you know, holding a baby all the time, just like cries and needs me. And I have friends that eat that up. And when the kid gets older, they're just like, I'm kind of over it. And so I knew that for me, I was already not like a super baby person. So for me, I had decided I was going to work. I knew I was going to work the whole time, but I was going to try to get work to a more balanced place when my kids were a little bit older. And for me, the target age was five. And so I had a lot of help in the early stages. And for, I can't remember which kid, but I did have some night nurse help, which was a privilege and incredibly instrumental in keeping that ship running.

I had a nanny in the day. Literally, my nanny was like my MVP of my life. I told her all the time, like, you know you're my most valuable employee, right? And I was lucky enough to have her for a long time. And so in order to make the decision, especially if you're running a business where a lot of people count on you, I think for me, it was right from the beginning acknowledging I can't do two things at two, maybe three full-time jobs at once I was like it's not possible and so I had to set myself up with that support and I think it's acknowledging that parenting is a full-time job was probably the first step of that of going parenting's a full-time job either I'm doing it my husband's doing it or we're hiring someone to do

it you know and I think that that's like a really important thing because in some ways by using the do-it-all framework, we're actually diminishing the job of motherhood in some ways. We're making that seem like something you should be able to do while writing emails and having Zoom calls. Like I just don't think that's the reality. Certainly wasn't for me. And there are super women people out there, maybe that can do it, but it wasn't my reality. And so I did have support. I think that was really important. As my kids have gotten older, I've tried to like be really rigid about that sort of goal I set for myself. So now I don't work full days every day. I'm a morning person, so it works out great for me. I'm happy to wake up at like five in the morning, four in the morning, whatever, do my emails. Then I'm with my kids making breakfast. My husband and I share the driving the kid to school morning routine. And then half of the days of the week, I take care of the kids after school. And

then the other half, my husband. And we no longer have a nanny anymore. And that's very recent. And so, but that was for me sort of like what my plan had looked like. And my husband and I were on the same plan. And so that's kind of worked out. We've made that a priority. And so that's what it looks like today, not what it looked like initially. I think that's really powerful to actually see motherhood as a job. It has its own job description. It has, particularly if you're coming from like a business setting where you're used

to like delegating roles out to different team members. Like, well, hang on a minute. Look, this look this is another job well this is another hat that I have I'm no longer CEO I'm CEO and mother yes these roles and how can I get support in that and did that help understanding that and seeing it that way did that help you with like mom girl because I hear like that I mean I don't have children but I know that that can be really challenging the mom guilt's real. I also have the work guilt. So in both cases, I always feel like, as I say, I always feel like I'm kind of letting somebody down.

I struggled with that a lot early on. I feel better about it now because I'm a little more with the kids. And I think that Lunia and Lago and the various different projects I'm involved in all have much stronger leadership than they did early days. And so also the companies are more self-sustaining. And in some weird way, it's kind of healthy that I can't, you know, if I didn't have kids, I would probably be all in all the time. Like I literally probably never eat. I would just focus on working all the time because I have that sort of personality. We can relate to that. You guys can understand. I was like, oh, excuse me. And so sometimes like having some of those boundaries

actually help you do what you should be doing for your business, which is helping to set it up to have sustainable leadership and growth over the future. And so like, if I didn't have kids, maybe I would try to have like squeezed longer without like incredible leadership because I'd be trying

to like optimize cash and you know do these kinds of things and I don't think that would have served my company well and so I kind of am like sometimes these things are like hidden gifts and that is what it has been for for me so so yeah I have the guilt it's it's still there it's diminished over time and some of the narrative I have to remind myself is that I may not be there all the time for all the events for my kids. I can't do all the things that some of the stay-at-home moms can do. But I'm giving them a different gift. And they get to see that their mother's capable and that we have more of a partnership dynamic in our home. And so, look, like, I think I had a mom that stayed home with me

for the vast majority of my upbringing. And that was so amazing. It gave me lots of privileges and opportunities and whatnot. And I got one thing out of that. And I think my kids will get something else. There's always something to be gotten from it. Whatever you choose, there's a silver lining there. I love that reframe.

I think that's so powerful and just giving yourself permission to not be 100% at everything all the time. Otherwise, you're just going to feel like you're failing all the time. And I mean, burnout is real. I mean, I felt it on my teams, particularly coming out of pandemic.

It feels like it's one of those things, you know, at LUNIA, we're elevating rest. That's kind of how we see ourselves. And we see that as a mission and a calling that's bigger than selling sleepwear. We think about it as like, we're actually evangelizing the need for taking this time to recharge. And some of that is coming from this recognition that this like, this rat race that we're running is burning us all out you know and so it's connected to this right if you think you have to be a hundred percent an old thing all cylinders going all the time you're not going to be in a good place mentally

and then you'll you know not want to keep working at your job or you know you'll have a tough time with your spouse and you know it's like you can't show up as a great parent like you're not in the right headspace for that so these things are all interconnected and can we talk more about that I don't know if we can call it post-pandemic are we still in the past we don't know but something like that the post-pandemic burnout because I feel like it's this mysterious hidden thing that a lot of people are feeling I've've certainly felt it, where you're tired and exhausted and you're like, wait, why am I tired and exhausted? Why is staying home or having certain restrictions put on me so exhausting? Yes. Have you felt that? Are you noticing that, especially being in the business of rest? Are you seeing it? I'm seeing it. I'm seeing it. I see it. I feel it personally

and I see it on my team. Certainly, I wasn't exempt from the turnover that a lot of companies faced, particularly early this year. I saw it. And I think it's one of those, you know, I've got a lot of theories around it, but it's connected to us, like our mission work that we're doing. A lot of it is, to me, there's, let's just call there being multiple elements here. One is I think that we're emotionally exhausted from the stress of going through that pandemic. You know, our whole world has been upended. Everything that we knew to be true has shifted. But there's also a complicated media cycle that's playing out that we're still a part of that continues every day for us, where, you know, we have more access to information

than we ever did, but the information is being sensationalized because of the business model that supports media. You know, they're after clicks and creating controversy. And what that does to our psyches is incredibly exhausting. It makes us feel like bad things are happening all the time. The world's horrible. There's no way out. And if you're living your life with this constant soundtrack in the back of your head, I mean, there's a reason why suicides are up and depression is up and these things are up. It's a horrible soundtrack to be playing in the back of your head. And I'm not saying that there's no problems. There's certainly problems, but you're taking on the world's problems now. We now know about everything that's going on everywhere. And that's a lot for one human to take.

One example I heard recently, a sort of metaphor they used for it is, as humans, we have like a hardware and that then there's the software that's kind of like the new way of living that's being booted into us all the time. And that we still have, you know, a nervous system and a physical body that was designed to handle one thing, but we're kind of throwing a lot more at it than it was ever designed to handle. So we're basically frying ourselves. And when you look at then, why does that translate into people quitting and doing these things? And to me, it's like, it's almost like it's the one thing in your life you can control. Like I can't shut off the media. I can't make the pandemic stop. I can't, I could change my job or I can take a break from my job. And,

and it's like, I want to control the one thing that I think I can change and improve. And, and that's's that's just one of my theories about is because I don't notice that like as much as the pandemic was a part of that I don't feel better suddenly knowing that things are slightly better I'm still carrying that constant narrative in my head you know it's the environment it's it's racially charged situations it's you know it's like we can keep listing the many different things that we're all trying, you know, inequality, like we can politics, like keep layering on the heaviness of this world.

And it's like, at a certain point, I can't get out of bed anymore, you know, not in the good way, like not in the rest of the rejuvenation type of way, but it's heavy, you know? I don't know the answer to this this but I do think I understand why people feel exhausted you know and it's funny that you mentioned nervous system because my background is a chiropractor and when you were saying that I was thinking back to our nervous system which has the parasympathetic and the sympathetic side to it so the parasympathetic is like your rest recharge your digestion you're like in like a good state and you're repairing. And then you're sympathetic is what people know as fight and flight.

That's like, okay, I'm being like anxiety. I've got the adrenaline. I've got things to do. Your heart is racing. You're like gearing up, you know? Yes. And I do think like the impact of being able to access social media and the media so accessibly, know just a touch of a button and on top of that what often greets us in social media right now is a lot of controversy a lot of opinions

we're already talking about cancel culture and how that's really taken on its own yeah fear fear is also in the sympathetic nervous system so i'm like oh yeah like it's no wonder because if i think about my time right now i have to actively seek now, I have to actively seek out downtime. I have to actively seek out ways of putting my body into parasympathetic. Whereas if we go back to how we were built, we were created to be in parasympathetic and then sympathetic to fight and flight to kick in.

When we have to hunt, we have to gather, someone's chasing us out the woods, like it's going to kick in on those times. Whereas now I'm like, I actually feel like I'm in sympathetic a lot. I'm like constantly in fight and flight like oh we are yeah I really need to figure out how yeah yeah yeah support myself in this it's very tricky I think we're all kind of grappling with this and I don't know what the answer is but I think you're you're exactly on that because I definitely I mean Natalie and I have had conversations we do light mood with the team over Christmas which is where we cancel all

meetings for two weeks yeah basically everyone just ticks things we keep a status quo yeah keep things ticking over we're not actively pushing any projects forwards or anything like that and I take the full time off I'm not taking over I prep peace out I'll see you in January friends yeah we're experimenting at LUNIA. It's interesting because we did like summer Fridays during the summer. We do no Zoom Fridays right now is what we're doing because we're recognizing also that there's an element of like having to be on the screen. I find I have to like magnify my emotions to be able to speak and be animated because people can't read your body language the same way when you're in person. And that's very emotionally draining, you know, and everybody's doing this, not just,

and so we were like, how do we create even these sort of moments where people can let their hair down? And even if they're like chugging some workout, they don't have to be so on, you know, it's, and then also how do we create an environment where people turn it off? Like one of the things I tell my team is, I mentioned the way I create balance in my life is I wake up early and I do emails in the morning, but I usually tell people when they start working at LUNIA, you will get an email from me at three or four in the morning. That doesn't mean I'm expecting you or even wanting you to respond. That's just the timing that kind of like works for how I'm trying to juggle my life.

But I'm not, you know, and I think it's important to like make sure people know that they're not expected to be always on, you know, and that's not the expectation. So let's take a quick pause to talk about my new favorite all-in-one platform, Kajabi. You know, I've been singing their praises lately because they have helped our business run so much smoother and with way less complexity, which I love. Not to mention our team couldn't be happier because now everything is in one place. So it makes collecting data, creating pages, collecting payment, all the things so much simpler. One of our mottos at Boss Babe is simplify to amplify and Kajabi has really helped us do that this year. So of course,

I needed to share it here with you. It's the perfect time of year to do a bit of spring cleaning in your business you know get rid of the complexity and instead really focus on getting organized and making things as smooth as possible I definitely recommend Kajabi to all of my clients and students so if you're listening and haven't checked out Kajabi yet now is the perfect time to do so because they are offering Boss babe listeners a 30-day free trial go to kajabi.com slash boss babe to claim your 30-day free trial that's kajabi.com slash boss babe wait you do emails at three in the morning i do i'm a morning person that's the middle of the night actually just don't talk to me at like 5 p.m i start to slur okay i want to come back to your daily

routine later on okay then now i would like to learn yes yes we could talk about it i think you have an internal body clock is what i will say like some people are night people and that sounds insane to them and so i think you have to like honor your body clock yeah i i had a fun college experience we'll call it this. And I went out super late. It was only lasted like two and a half strong years, but they were big. And even when I would go to bed,

like three in the morning or two in the morning, I would wake up at 6 a.m. no matter what. So even like, it doesn't matter almost what time I would go to sleep, I'm a morning person. So it's worked better for me to orient my life around how my body's going to, you know, I need to get enough sleep. So for me, I go to bed early and that enables me to get sufficient sleep and wake up at a crazy time in the morning.

But that's when my brain is the most on and I'm not getting interrupted by my team. So, and I love my team. I don't mean that in a bad way. I just mean like I can focus on things. So a lot of my focus work, I'll leave for Fridays or I do it really early in the morning, the things I need to like really just noodle through. And so that's when I do it. And then my kids wake up. I have kids who wake up early and then I got to like do breakfast, make lunches, taking school. And then I go back to, then it starts the meetings. And then I really don't take meetings that often after, you know,

sort of in the afternoon. I try to minimize the face meetings at that point because I've worked a pretty big day by that point. Yeah, totally. So I want to just take you back to the part of the story where you decided to start this business. You were like, right, now is the time. I'm pregnant. I'm going to start Lunya. I really just want to understand, like, what were the motivations for you to start Lunya? Obviously, we know being pregnant was one of them. Like, sleep was a big thing for you, but we have lots of women who are considering starting a business or they've already started. And I think just taking it back to those early days, I would love to hear more about that.

So Lunya wasn't the only business idea I had. I'm that kind of person. I see that the opportunities around me are actually the problems that you usually see. So if you're walking around, you're like, I wish this was this. I'm like, that's a business. I wish this was it. That's a business. So I kind of existed in that universe from the beginning. And I'd always be like, I wonder if that's interesting and and I'm but I'm also my own harshest critic so I would throw that idea and then I would try to sink the ship this kind of like metaphor you just go like it's not a good idea because of this that's not a good idea this and most of my ideas I can sink because you'll have a thousand ideas and maybe not even one of

them is worth pursuing and that so most of the ideas never even made it to like a verbally communicating it to someone else kind of a state. I would just be like, well, not a good idea. Get rid of that one. And so I would say that's possible. And the things I use and I think are good transportable things for other people to use to sink their ship are to make sure that there's a real, there's demand beyond you. That there's a market. There's an interest, right?

That is this something that people would be willing to pay for and a lot of them, you know? And so I think really making sure that this isn't just like more of an isolated thing or a passion, make sure that there's a, you know, I say this to a lot of people, it's like they'll find things they're passionate about and that's important. That's one of the pieces of the puzzle. But that is not the only and probably not even like the most important, but it's part of it. So is there a real business here? Is this interesting? Certainly the passion one is a big one. Are you passionate about it? As a leader, a lot of the ways you get people excited and bought in is that passion, that conviction, right? You have to have that, that belief that what you're doing brings something important into the world

and sort of needs to be done. And then another one would be a differentiation. Make sure that there's a reason, okay, so you do this. Why can't just, you know, Joe Schmo on the corner copy you and do the same thing? And why do you have a unique ability

to capture this marketplace? And that can be things, anything from like proprietary fabric to an algorithm to like, you know, insert kind of, or maybe it's like you have this interesting combination of experience that like only you have because of your prior work history or, you know, it could be anything. But I think really those are a good place to start to think about those. And I use those to try to sink in. And I told you I couldn't sink this one. And so I do think that was why I told you at the end,

I realized it was only fear holding me back. Because I was realizing, yes, I don't know how to do this. I didn't come from fashion. So I did have like a, well, what do I know about creating a good? You know, my background was in online media. I also know myself to be a capable, open person who's able to learn things that I don't understand and also able to find smart people that can like help be a part of something or teach me or, you know, whatnot. So even though that was a barrier, that wasn't a reason not to do it. You know what I mean? Yeah, that makes sense. And when I look at

as a brand, I mean, I've been buying for years and years now. Yeah. I, I really, really, I first introduced, yeah. I first introduced Danielle to it by gifting her some pants. I'm like, you've got to wear these pants. The line doesn't go in between your vagina and like chop you up. You have like, come on, you have to buy these pants. So anyway, that was Danielle's journey and she loved it. I was like, great, she's selling, Dan.

One thing that I always noticed about Lunya from the very beginning was its differentiation in this space. What is it that makes Lunia so different? So I think Lunia is very unique in that it's thinking about the holistic needs of the person. And I think that this, you know, for us, like our guests, we think about it as this person that's like living and existing in this home environment that's going to sleep in our product. They are a real person to us. They're a person that we relate to because we are this person, you know? And so the reason I say that is I think in fashion, some fashion is about fashion. It's

just about looking great. I think that's a very important component of this conversation because I do think looking great can translate into feeling great, which is ideally the goal here. But I think there's a functional component to sleep that is very much neglected in the market. And I think that that is a really big differentiator in Lunya's approach. And I think that's thinking about things, and it shows up in fabric, but also in construction. So, I mean, you mentioned eliminating center seams. So why do center seams exist? They don't work for us. It's very tricky. I know. And so like, you know, we created this, our Pima pant is a good example. And I remember we constructed it where if you turn it

inside out, it almost looks the same as it does in the other way. That's very expensive construction, by the way, but it was the only way I can hide the seams on the inside. And I just felt like, you know, some people don't sleep in underwear. And so this is going to be like nothing like waking up with this like wedgie up the front. It's super uncomfortable. And any woman knows that that's a thing, you know. And so I just went, we have to be able to solve that. And so, I mean, early on, it was tricky because here we were in this new marketplace where there really wasn't much customer education about why would I even buy sleepwear. And now I'm saying, hey, it's not just sleepwear, but like because of all this functionality, it's expensive premium sleepwear. And I'm like, well, right, because in order to

line that pant in that way, that's twice the amount of fabric. And think about what's going in that. So construction details. We've got on our silk special waistbands that keep it from slipping because silk is a naturally kind of slippery fabric. And so that way, you're not waking up with it riding up. Pockets that accommodate your phone. In our robe, we have sleeves that can push up so you can wash your face and cook in the kitchen and not catch yourself on fire.

Just basic things, you know. Robe, I have nearly done that fire. I have issues. The amount of times your dressing gown gets wet and soggy from brushing your teeth or washing your face. I mean, it's a thing. I have set my terry robe on fire. Like, literally, this big one. And so it's like creating products with nuances, knowing how she's going to and he's going to live in it.

Actually, getting into men's was super fun. I bought Lago for Steven too. It's understanding, you know, and we had this whole journey with men's too, to like getting men in there and understanding what they want. And sometimes they don't even know what they need. I always think it's like, when I think about Apple, not to like connect ourselves to Apple, but hey, why not? You know, but they knew what I needed before I knew what I needed. And I think that that's like really my job is to understand not even what, just what you're asking for, but what would be that next step that I could eliminate discomfort or improve any, you know, just thinking about the straps, they don't fall off and liners on the shirt. So you

don't have to wear a bra, like really going through like all of those details and then making sure it's clear and easy to find what you're looking for on the website. How did you pinpoint those details for yourself though? Because like you are saying that I'm like, oh yeah, oh yeah, like I do have that issue, but yeah, I haven't thought about them being an issue. So I'm curious, like how you developed the products in that way to be like, okay, these are all the problems that we have. Once you go deep, once you decide you're so passionate about something, there is an obsession that occurs. And I say this and I say it blanketly because I am lucky enough to be surrounded by a lot of entrepreneurs, my husband being one of them. He's probably the most obsessive gamer that

anyone could meet. And it makes him incredible at his job. He's well played and deeply played. And there's like all the little things that are super annoying to a gamer. And I feel like I have, I'm very similar in that approach. Like I know all the little things that are super annoying to a gamer. And I feel like I'm very similar in that approach. Like I know all the annoying things about clothes that you probably never think of because you're not obsessing and noodling on it all day long, hopefully you're not. This is not your business to have to do that.

And so hopefully I'm almost solving problems you didn't know exist. And to me, the way we know it's working is if you just choose to grab our clothes every night, when you look in the drawer and you don't know exist. And to me, the way we know it's working is if you just choose to grab our clothes every night, when you look in the drawer and you don't need, it's subconscious for you. You don't know why you grabbed our pants and not the other pants in the drawer. But I know you grabbed it because you were thinking, oh, the other pants don't have pockets, which means I'm going to have to carry my cell phone around all day. Or the other ones make me feel bulky in the front because they gather. If you notice like our waistbands are flat front waistbands like that just makes me feel

bulky in the front like it's subconscious that decision making and I have like two of your washable silk sets yes and I always go to grab them because I'm like they feel like comfortable and sexy at the same time like I sleepwear was so unsexy for so long like you would have to choose between sexy and comfort that's the biggest issue these are like and then now you're just saying about the um waistbands the waistbands and the little like dots yeah inside they keep in place yeah I'm like yeah they really work yeah it's like you can see it so you can see these little teeny they're subtle subtle, but they keep it in place, you know, and then you can see this it's flat front and that's also, so it's, these are things you

shouldn't have to think of. That's my job to think of it. And then hopefully the receipt or the reward for me comes in that you choose every time you're making that decision and you're opening that bottom drawer, you choose a Lunya piece, you know? Okay, guys, I'm just interrupting this episode because I've got a little treat for you. I am joined by Lori Harder, founder of Light Pink and author of the Light Pink Guide to the Holiday Seasons. Because let's face it, the holidays is a wonderful time, but it's very, very stressful and we want to help you guys thrive. So Lori, what can our listeners expect from your amazing holiday guide? Danielle, I am so excited about this because the holidays are always a time when I feel like we wait till the last minute and we're frantic and we can't do that this year because shipping is going to be delayed. So you need to

start now. And this guide is all about supporting small businesses, supporting female-owned businesses. And best of all, it has exclusive discounts. You have a free preset that we made just for you to make your photography pop this year. It's all about what to wear, wellness and beauty top picks, trendiest and most coveted gifts of the year, conversation starters for those awkward moments in your family or at parties, cocktail recipes, and so much more. We just wanted to, we just wanted to make it easier, like pour a glass of rosé or sparkling water and browse the guide. You are speaking to my heart right now because you're telling me you're going to save me time and money. I'm in.

Yes. I'm in. So I want to ask you a couple of questions before that, because one thing I think is really important that a lot of people get over is juggling a business with family and relationships during this time is also really hard. Do you have any tips on that? Yes. You know, I think that a lot of our stress comes from overloading our plate and we just, we let the holidays sneak up on us. So one of the biggest things that we can do is actually look at the month and what we want to partake in and what we don't and create some really firm boundaries about what we're going to be a part of and schedule it in. And another thing that really helps me is when I stay on my routine, like when I stay within my

rituals, I can handle like the stress of everything coming at you a lot better. So something that has changed my life is scheduling and workouts and not just scheduling and workouts, but scheduling and workouts with friends. It's become a way not only to spend time with people at the holidays, but also to hold myself super accountable because that is like the best stress management tool. And also, you know, my husband and I were combining Christmas parties this year. So I have a team, he has a team wherever we can save time and do something together. This is really huge for us. So we actually have a combined Christmas

party. Um, and also for stress around this time with holiday budgets, something that has changed our life with our family is having a conversation and saying, okay, this year, we don't have to worry about buying a gift for every single person in your family. Let's all come together, either draw names from a hat or everybody buys one gift that everyone might like and exchange it at the holidays. I can't tell you how much this has saved time. It's saved money. It's saved, um, you know, wondering about, oh my gosh, are they going to buy me an expensive present? I bought them a cheap one or vice versa. What does that look like? So it's all about making sure that you're communicating at the holidays and that you have a plan going into it.

I love that. And then they can consult the gift guide to find out what gifts they should buy. So making it easier. And you were talking about routines and stuff and making sure, like you say, your exercise routines and how things you stick to to but it can be really hard to set boundaries just generally but then on top of that with the holidays because there's this expectation of well you know it's thanksgiving or it's christmas it's new year all the things and you need to do this you need to be that so what are your suggestions to help people set boundaries during this time so that they not only you know meet the expectations of loved ones, family, and friends, but they also get their meantime and they don't just come out of

the holidays absolutely exhausted? You know, this is such a great question. And I feel like part of this is also just knowing that you're going to have to make decisions that work for you and your family, because no matter what we say or do with boundaries, we're probably always going to disappoint someone. So I think it's starting with knowing that you're not going to make everybody happy, right? Let's have a realistic place to start. We're not going to make everyone happy, but one of the most important things we can do is to make sure that we actually enjoy the holidays and that our family enjoys the holidays and that we are getting in time with the people that we really want to get in time with. So something that Chris and I do, my husband, is we really set expectations with our family. So if we know we're going to spend three days with them or one day with them for certain holidays or a few hours, we communicate that. We say we need to be at this party and this thing or we have this going on and this is going to be the time that we're going to spend.

What do we want to do? So it's really having that open communication of setting those expectations with your family. And, you know, I think one of the biggest things for us is at Christmas, it's really about, because we go home, I don't know about you, but we go home and we spend a week with our family, which is just, it's, you know, self-development in and of itself. So through the years, the last like 15 years that we've done this, we finally come up with something that works for everyone. And a lot of families will wake up and it's kind of like, you're expected to hang out together from 9am until nine at night. And one of the things that we do is we say, okay, all festivities while we're together, aren't going to start until 1pm or 3pm or what time do we all want to get together on

this day? Because we've got a little bit of work or what time do we all want to get together on this day because we've got a little bit of work to do and we also want to make sure we get our self-care in. So we actually set times for festivities to start when we spend time together so that we know we can have that alone time and we can have that personal time in our life so that we feel really good about spending time together. Oh my goodness, I love this. I love that just in these last few minutes we have taken the stress away from everybody's holiday we've given their gift guide we've given them the discounts we've given them ways to have conversations with their families about boundaries so they come out this holiday feeling regenerated and revitalized versus exhausted and burnt out that is our goal here so

laurie share with us where our listeners can find out a little bit more about you and this gift guide. So you guys can go to at Drink Light Pink on Instagram. And of course, the link is in our bio. Or you can go to lightpink.com. And you guys, I'm telling you, this is like 30 plus pages of the most coveted gifts. And it's so much fun to look through along with those super exclusive discount codes. And you guys even have a section in there where you are sharing some of your favorite gifts for the holidays. I love that. Yes, we do. We wanted

to add the boss babe touch to this as well. We are also going to put the link to the gift guide in the show notes for you guys just so that you can grab it really, really easily. Okay. Thanks, Lori. Appreciate you. Thank you, guys. So going back to talking about your journey starting the business, you mentioned a couple of times getting the business to a place where your day-to-day looks different now than when it did in the beginning. In the beginning, we wear a million hats and we're trying to do a million things. And you mentioned bringing on senior leadership. And was there one kind of point in the business where you made a decision or made a move that started to create more freedom for you and allow you to step back? Yes. And I think the way to describe this is maybe to talk a little bit about the org progression. I always say org is like the bane of my existence. And I mean,

organizational planning. And I say that because good organizational planning takes a lot of time and thought and then it also takes a lot of forethought planning into future years and that's trying and usually it takes a lot of knowledge about how your industry works which for me has always been a struggle because I am you know I would say now I'm knowledgeable but let's say you, early on I was building the ship while I was, you know, like, or what do they say, building the plane while I was flying it. So I was learning as I was going. I'm like, I don't know, what's a merchandiser? That's a thing I need. I need a merchandiser. What's a planner? Like, I didn't know what any of these positions were. I certainly didn't know what

good looked like. And I didn't know when I needed those positions. So you had so many unanswered questions for me that building an org was really hard, and I generally recognized I had a need only when it was such a big need that we were all drowning underneath it, you know? And so I think that's one of the really hard things, particularly about being a founder in an industry that you maybe don't have deep expertise in is that, you know, you are trying to figure it out at the same time. So early on, most startups look like a bunch of passionate, multitasking folks that are really hardworking. That's early on what it looks like. And I think that that's, you know, your cash constraints. You can't hire the most experienced, most expensive person in the room. And I think less experienced folks see the opportunity that it is for them to be able to touch a lot of areas of business and learn along with you. So it's a great opportunity for them,

and it's what you need at that time. Over time, you need people to get shallower and deeper in their experience set, right? So you start to be like, well, I don't now need, I mean, my first marketing person did like website marketing. Our e-com took our photos. Half the time was in our photos. It was like, you know, she did everything, right? But half the time in our photos, we remember those days. Yeah, we shot like, I remember we'd do a photo shoot,

like the product would land in the office. We'd do a photo shoot in the lobby and have it up by 4 p.m. that afternoon. And so we would lament the days when we started having process and lead time. We're like, we used to get that up same day. You know, it's just like a whole different world. Yeah. But it doesn't scale. Right. So as time goes on, you have a lot more moving pieces. That job that was one person's job, like I now have 20 people at LUNIA that do all the things I just described for you. And what does that mean for what those people look like? Is they have to be deep experts in that area. And so there's shifts within companies are very common. People don't talk about this out loud, but I'm going to say this out loud, which is sometimes people don't

transition to those next stages with you. And it's not because there's anything wrong with any of these people involved, actually. Sometimes it's that maybe that person loved being shallow and wide. They loved touching a lot of things in the business. They don't like a lot of structure. They like feeling like a small and mighty team against the world. And that's great. And then sometimes you needed, you love that person, but what you need from that person is different. And maybe they don't have the skill sets to go deep and narrow where you need them. And it's hard for them to get training because who would have taught them? You're just figuring it out as you go. There's no senior management above them at every level.

So it's very hard to grow people. It's funny. And it's not that funny when you're in it. It's actually like a devastating process for everyone involved. But because it's this, you want to be a growth organization. You want to scale your people. You want to stay with those early people that are like your, they're your heartbeat. You know, you've like gone to war with them.

But it's hard to do that, both because of like maybe what they want and because of what you need. And so it's tricky. And so oftentimes you've had these inflection points within the company where it's almost like you have to rebuild because your needs change, the people want different things. And also like, you know, this is, it's challenging to level those folks up. So I would say for a long time, we were generalists and maybe we'll call that maybe until we were 12 people, a lot of generalists, not a lot of process. We kind of like turn to someone and be like, ready to put that product on the website? Yeah, let's do it. Okay. And we like do it. We're all in one room. It's just like very casual. And then suddenly you realize like, oh, we're like, we're bigger than that. You know, we can't, I can't just like ask Joe to like throw it on the website for me because maybe my ops team, now I'm not fulfilling orders in my office

anymore. And like the ops team wasn't ready and so they haven't put everything away and so you start to realize like wow this is we need different mechanisms to work well so you start to bring in people that know process and then you start to realize that you don't have the right org for that and so it's this constant stage of building and rebuilding I think we're Luna's about maybe 55 folks. And I had the opportunity to run OV for about a year. And I think we were about, let me write, around 100. And so it's been nice because I've been able to see some different orgs, different sizes. And you have to, it's like what's right at one stage is not right at another. And I say that to go like what, you know, I'm at, I'm at this stage, but what I'm doing, that's much better than I used to do is I'm starting to go now because I'm planning three

years out. I know where I intend to be from a revenue standpoint. And then it's like, it's the if then question, which is, so if I'm going, okay, in 2022, I want to be at this point in revenue. I want to accomplish these things in brand. Then I need to do what, and then who, what resources do I need to do, you know, to accomplish those things? And that's both a money question, a personnel question, a process, you know, systems question. And so you have all those things kind of flow out from where you're going. And so today it's much different. I have much more, I have a much stronger leadership bench and multiple levels

of folks. So they aren't looking to me in the same way that in early business I had, let's say, nobody was above a director while we were like 15 people. And I had to do, like, I was sort of responsible as like the decision maker for all things. That doesn't scale at all. And so, you know, but it was the right thing for the time. Now we get to this next level and now other people are aligned on vision and plan where we're going. And so because of that, they're capable of independent decision-making within their areas of the business, thus freeing me up to not have to be the decision maker on every single decision. Oh my God. There's so many things that I want to talk about within that. And I'm like, okay, great. I'm excited to get to that point. So when you were bringing on more senior leadership, do you have any tips for

hiring at that level? Well, what I will say is, and this is back to the tricky thing. Everything is a tricky thing. Sometimes people, you know, your needs within those roles change over time too. So I think it's hard because you have to hire the person who's the right person for the right stage of the business and try to build a little room in there. So hopefully they have enough capability that they can scale with you for a while. Got it. That can be a limiting perspective though because sometimes you can't afford that person or sometimes that person doesn't really exist. And so there are nuances of how you approach it. And I also think you can't assume that everyone's going to be with you forever and try to go, can I hire this person today? Well, I'm a $10 million company that's going to be,

will I know that this person is going to play the same role at this company when we're a hundred million company? I'd say some of that is, you know, it's good to think about that, but also like if you're trying to make every decision from that vantage point, you'll never do it, you know, because who knows? Some of that is on that person. Is that person going to grow and adapt and be willing and do all this stuff? You don't know, you know, so there's an element of like get the right person who's probably right for the next handful of years. I'd say tips for hiring the right people, I'd say a lot of it is values alignment. It's like choosing a spouse, really.

It's like, I almost think about like choosing a president or something. It's like, we don't know the challenges we're going to get thrown. We know maybe some of them and half of them we probably are predicting and they're wrong, right? So what I know is I'm going to be in the hole with this person problem solving. So I need to make sure that we're values aligned in our approach. And that also we're like headed in the same direction. I think about this with the spouse too, right? I never knew some of the challenges that we were going to face as parents and whatever, but I'm pretty values-line. I know what our idea of good is, is actually the same.

And so I think that that's, I think values alignment and like end goal vision alignment are the things that can really, really help. And then there's just random things. Like I look for tenure on resumes, people that jump around all the time. And I know everyone's gonna have a jump in the last two years. People are all changing jobs. It's fine, but don't do it a lot. Like if somebody's changed jobs every two years, I'm like, nope, not gonna do it.

Because I just, I also know that stuff's gonna come up and I don't want a person that's gonna like jump at the sign of hard things. Like I'm hiring- Particularly in a new company. Exactly. And I'm hiring senior talent to help with hard things you know what I mean so if I have to worry that they're just kind of

waiting there for the next shiniest offer that's coming along and that if I throw a challenge at them or the business throws a challenge at them that I can't count on them to help me get through it I'm like what kind of a you know what is that you know so you look at tanya but i also heard you talk about before like you almost try and discourage people from taking the job right tell us about that oh i want to generally i really do think that hiring is like one of the most time consuming things for any business particularly a new business because not only do you have to like find the candidates and put them through it all then you have to train them and then for them to leave, you're just like back at square one. So tell me about discouraging from the moment you get to go. Well, I would say, I would, you know, we were talking about senior leadership. I think

my hiring process looks different on different places in the hierarchy, you know? So I tend to cast a wide net. I'm going to go like very specific down to like truly how I do. I use Calendly to book appointments. I'm going to write it all down. So I'm going to be like this specific, but I think if people are thinking of starting businesses, this is what they want. This is the behind the scenes. They're going to get like a good takeaway. I don't have an assistant and I use Calendly and it's a great way for me to book lots of appointments. And so what I do is I create these 15-minute windows, and I just reach out to people, or they reach out and respond. And I go, grab a 15-minute window on

this day. And they can see my schedule and book automatically. It saves me a lot of time for getting all that back and forth, trying to just schedule them. Yes. So I'm a big fan of that. I do 15-minute first calls when we're talking about not super senior positions. C-level is a little different. And then on those, I'm just like, it's like we're talking about not super senior positions. C-level is a little different. And then on those, I'm just like, it's like we're speed dating. Just like, I like you, Jane. I like you. Is this going to work?

Do you know what you need to know to do this job? Is this going to work? Then if there's interest there, you know, and I can pull that list real fast. And the kinds of questions I like to ask are, you know, how do they deal with challenges? I like to understand why they're leaving their last job. You know, this is kind of like really about understanding, because you're trying to understand someone's motivations, you know, like what is, I ask them if their boss was to give me feedback on them, positive and negative, what would they say? Ooh, that's a good question.

Yeah, because I think it's a good forcing mechanism. They will usually be honest, but positive, which they should be. It's their marketing themselves. But I want to understand what are the potential gaps. I love sending, we do some personality tests. They're called like a high five test. I love it because I can understand like where are their natural tendencies and then think does that line up with not just their job,

but the overall like make of that team. Is it helping to round out, you you know people talk a lot about diversity and I think diversity can be and is definitely things that are like you know uh racial diversity gender diversity but I think it's also diversity of thought yeah diversity of approach priorities how they look so when I look at building diverse teams I think about it very holistically are these people that that have bring different things to the table? Yeah, diversity and personality. Personality. It's funny, but we have story. I didn't have a lot of storytellers for a while and storytelling is marketing. And so I was like, man, I have a team of marketers and no one's a storyteller. So then when I started looking at different folks and I was hiring, I got a couple of people that storytellers were stopping. I was

like, good, we needed that. Oh, that's on the high five one. It's on the high five. We need that. We do Enneagram. And just to like add to the story slightly, we did a team exercise where as Enneagrams, you got to build a house and they separated us per our Enneagram. It was absolutely hilarious. It blew our minds. How the eights would build the house versus how the threes would build the house versus how the sevens would build the house. And I have never, like, just to see it in black and white,

the approach differences to the same problem, it just, again, really accents why it's important to have that diversity of personality and skill sets in a team yes I was like wow if we're all the same we're all going to be doing the same way it's not going to turn out so well so basically I steal that okay so we'll do a follow-up on that because I love those kind of exercises because I think while learning your strengths it also there's a shadow to every strength so like I'm number one catalyst I'm not a very uncommon

makeup for an entrepreneur so I'm a catalyst an optimist and like a brainstormer and and these kinds of things optimist is usually in a top five of a of a founder because they have to go well that sucks they have to be crazy enough to do it in the last place. Crazy enough to do it in the last place. Exactly. So I qualified as it turns out. But catalyst is my number one. Usually it's the catalyst. That's like someone who starts something, who can like push that ball up the hill and get it going. Oh, what do you think I am?

Yeah. But catalysts have a tricky dark side, which I've become more aware of that as I've gotten older, which is... Shiny object? I'm decent with... can I think I'm okay with that but for me it's like I don't think all enough about all the downstream things about it like I'm like let's just put it up and we'll think about it I feel like I have people on my

team probably not finishing it and the details yeah that's why we work because Danielle yes I I come up with an idea and Danielle's already thinking about the details and finishing it and I'm like I'm not there yet I'm already like that walking oh my dear and it's like the other day I went to a meeting

and we were like figuring out all the like ways that we were like going to deliver on this product and I was like isn't it funny

Natalie just threw this one here's a great idea guys sold it on this idea run with it yeah now where is she just like looking at this like scratching her head here's a great idea, guys. Sold it on the side. Run with it. Now where is she? Just like looking at this,

like scratching our heads, trying to work out how we're going to get this done. None of the systems are working together. We're having to build out everything. It's getting done. I think good leaders build teams that are diverse in this way because, and they value, I think a really important thing is that

you have to value all of those things. Oh, 100%. It's hard for me because sometimes I get really annoyed with people that want to slow down my mojo. I'm like, stop fucking, sorry. I was like, you know, why you got to like buzzkill all my ideas? But that's me. Yeah. Because it's how it feels to be a catalyst. But then I like, I've got a few years on me. And so now I'm like, and I have to remind myself, thank goodness I have those people that are throwing my idea through a sieve a little bit, that are like making sure that we're like actually dotting the I's and crossing the T's.

And that's what makes us great. And I do, I think that that is, you come to appreciate that over time. And I think it's it's true in terms of personality type but it's also true in terms of uh the roles people play like it's easy to you know like operations plays a really important role at our company it's like logistics and it's it's back end but it's not sexy it's not the front end it's not like the marketing you know product whatever but it's so it can be underued sometimes, but it is like literally the engine,

you know? And so you have to make sure it's important. And then brand sometimes gets devalued by comparison to conversion marketing because conversion is making the money, but conversion doesn't make a dollar without beautiful images and really good storytelling. And so brand, you're easy to go like, let's take all the money away from brand and give it to conversion. I'm like, if you do that, and I can tell you firsthand knowledge if you do that you lose the soul which is what actually everyone was buying in the conversion marketing anyway and so I think what happens is you just realize this is an intricate web that like its personalities its roles people play in contribution to the company and that it's the magic is that these things come together to create something that people value you know yeah that is so powerful

and I feel like I know I'm definitely relating as a founder to some of those things and just like you say it's starting a business and hiring and I think it's also just making it acceptable or normal that you know team shift. People come through in different stages of your business and their lives and that's okay too. And, you know, I think that it's very difficult sometimes, you know, coming into a startup or coming into a new company, come from a corporate world. And I would always caution people, if you are used to your job being the same thing for five years, don't apply in a business that's like under five years, maybe under 10 years. Because things are ever evolving and ever changing. And I think just

recognizing some of those things for everyone, being aware, like knowing what you're going into is really important. I also just want to ask you about life draft hiring, because Natalie and I have found ourselves in this position a few times, you know, you're talking, um, you were talking earlier about now you're planning three years out, right? But that's not the case. Like sometimes a lot of businesses are like, I don't even know what I'm doing in three months time. Like I can barely get by the next few weeks. So what tends to happen there is then you're like, you've left it too long to hire that person then you're like just just give me freaking anyone right now I just need a body oh we've been there we've been there how do you really like and maybe I don't know if you'll have to reflect on like maybe a

couple of years back but how do you not do that because it's so I fall into that trap all the time of leaving it too late and then I'm like oh now I really need to hire with someone yesterday yes it's a really tricky problem early on. I can't say I've got the answer for that early on. But what I would say is I think there's a lot more contract labor than there used to be. And so I think to some degree, if you're able to bring— because contract labor is easier because you're not going like, let's get married forever. You're like, hey, are we good for a couple months?

Cool, you're going to do this project, this project, this project. And it's a really clear deliverable. They might be a little more expensive than your other employee, your long-term employee is going to be, but you're kind of going, I'm going to do this to take the heat off of myself so I can make a good decision. So I think anything you can do to get yourself some space so that you don't feel so rushed when you're doing it. Another option or another important thing is having a lot of people interview this person. And so if you have a small company, I think that sometimes at the company, you literally just don't have enough people to meet this person. You're like, okay, this person, it's their first job.

So as much as like maybe they could meet this person, they don't have enough of a frame of reference to really like help me identify as this is the right person. It's not like everyone has an equal value to add in an interview process. I think you might want somebody else who could give that person a call and just give you their thought

and their maybe more experience. So I had advisors or friends that would be willing to, especially for more senior hires, jump on a call. It doesn't have to be super long and kind of give me their gut instincts. And I can't tell you the number of times that that has happened. And they validated something that maybe I like had an inkling of, I was like, oh, they just gave me this little yellow light, but I'm so desperate that I'm like,

I might blow right by that. And then I'm like, I think it's okay. They just made this like one kind of weird comment. I'm going to pretend that didn't happen because I really need them you know and then they get on the phone with someone else it's it's true because you just like want it to work yeah I want you to ace this interview please and so I think it's like have that other person that is maybe like doesn't have an entrenched point of view that that is kind of like just cares about you that's not trying that isn't also underwater that can just give you another voice I think that's a really helpful way to do it too so I think anything you can do you know just to kind of recap that but like give yourself

some space even it means deprioritizing some other things or create more supply. We like LinkedIn advertising for getting candidates. So I definitely recommend that. Oh great, I was going to ask that. Yeah, LinkedIn has been working great for us. And so increase your supply, do the 15 minute interviews. So that's the other thing is I think people want to schedule long ones because they don't want to be rude to the candidate.

They're like, I don't want to only do 15 minutes. Do the 15, they don't want to be on the phone with you either if they're not the right person. So like 15-minute interviews, line them up. I knock out like 15 in a day. And then it's great, because if I meet 15 people, there's two of them that are interesting, you know, potentially. So now I can meet more people at once

and then have a, you know, phone a friend, I'd say, another one. I love that so much I'm writing down all the things good good helpful I have so just to start rounding this out I know we kind of touched on routines I would love to hear your full day routine from your morning routine how you schedule your day and then how you wind down and rest give me everything all the details okay um so as I said I wake up at kind of ungodly hours. In the middle of the night. We were like, mm-mm. Okay, but at least nighttime for some people. But so I wake up really early or late, depending on how you look at that. And I

do, I do emails. It's the time that I'm not getting a lot of other kind of inputs so I can focus. I also save, like I said earlier, all my thinking work for that time. So I spend a lot of time kind of doing my emails, organizing my thoughts. My most creative ideas usually come at that time. And so that's what I do from whenever I wake up, which could be as early as three, probably as late as 5.30. Are you waking up naturally or are you saying? Naturally. Oh, wow. Okay, nice.

I told you, this is my like natural body clock, which is bizarre, I realize. But that's why I'm like, this is not the prescription for other people. If it works. Yeah, I think the takeaway, if I was listening to this, would not be like, I now need to wake up at 3 a.m., would just be like honoring your body's natural clock, which is like, if you're someone that like actually lights up at 11, cool, do that. And then schedule your, you know, your other days to start later, like get the rest you need on the time that feels natural. Cause also, you know how your brain is on sometimes the day and then not, it's like put your prime thinking time in line with when you

actually think well, you know? So to me, that's what it is for me. As crazy as I realize that looks to other people. Then around seven, so my kids know we have a rule in our house. They can't come into our room until 7 a.m. We train them this early. This will be for the parents in the room. Great, I'm listening. Yes. So early on, they can't tell time.

We've got the clocks that turn to color. You can't come in. How old can I start this? Yeah, so, well, the good news is they're in a crib for like a minute anyway. Okay. So they can't escape, which is key. I also had also had like now I'm gonna get like child services gonna call me I had like a net that I put over their crib brilliant I'm taking all the time it was great it didn't look like super it wasn't it wasn't the cutest it wasn't aesthetically pleasing but my

kid lived in a cage and it did that because I'm a fan of it. But it was for two reasons. One, it kept, it like was a fully inclusive cage so their little arms couldn't stick through the bars, which was positive. Yeah. Because I had had one weird incident where my son got his arm stuck and I was like traumatized by that. And then also they start,

the way you find out that they're done with, they're like ready, they're wanting to be done with the crib is they start climbing out. And that's like the scary first one to wake up to. That was my brother was a devil at that. Climbing out his crib. He would climb everything. It's a far fall for a small person. Okay. No, we're going to put them in a cage. Yeah. So cages, cages the thing. So I put them in the cage. They were totally good with it. They like grew up in a cage. They're used to the cage.

They're domesticated animals. It's all fine. I love it. You have to have a sense of humor. Yeah. It's just, it is what it is. They're normal. They seem pretty adjusted. I think it's okay. So I did that. And so they were in a crib until I was ready for them to not be in a crib. And I don't remember offhand the exact time that I transitioned them out. But my guess would be it was three or some four, maybe something in there. And then what we did was we had that little clock, which turned to color. And it's great. So it was like, when it's green, it's go time. You can come into our room. And we said like, you need to stay in your bed. If you wake up early, you can play with your babies or whatever, and you stay in your room. And so they would do that if they didn't do

it. And so there was like a training. You have to really follow through. So if they come to your room, you're like, okay, we're taking you back to your room. It's not time for us to wake up yet. You know, this kind of thing. You do that a couple times and they're trained. It works. Got it. Boundaries.

Boundaries. I love that episode we did. Yeah. Listen, I'm making notes. It's so good. And then they do it. And then as they get older, they tell time. This all makes sense to them.

Eventually, I let them, if they wake up early, now they can go downstairs and do their things, whatever. Sorry, I got really deep into this topic. No, this is great. I love it. I also have a do not disturb knocker on my door. So if I'm taking a nap, like we have a whole system in our house to protect sleep because sleep is important to mommy. Yeah. And sleep is also important for them because I'm way nicer when I'm rested.

I love how detail-oriented you are. I'm like, this speaks to my soul. Yes, I have this do not disturb. They know when that's up, like don't come in there. And then if they do, what I tell them is I was like, so speaks to my soul. Yes, I have this do not disturb. They know when that's up, like don't come in there. And then if they do, what I tell them is I was like, so let me back up. So 7 a.m., that's our wake up time. They always come in.

Then I go downstairs, I make lunch and breakfast. It's like chaos. And then they go to school either with Mark or with me. And then I go to work. I start work with calls usually around 8 or 8.30, depending on what that day looks like. And I have usually solid calls, especially now we're like work from home, Zoom calls, you know, at least through maybe 1 o'clock. And then I try not to book after 1 o'clock because that's also the hours, you know, if

I've been on Zoom calls from like 8 to 1, I've got a million emails that have backlogged in that time. So that's the time that I usually chug through all the work that I actually need to produce versus just talking to people. So that's what that is. And then, and or, that allows me on the two days a week that I pick up the kids for me to go get the kids, which is like somewhere around 2.30 or 3 or whatnot, and I get them. And then I'll like maybe take them to an activity or bring them home or whatever that looks like. And then some days I don't go back to work. And then some days I do, depending on what the day looks like. And this is also one of those things where I tell you,

like as a working mom, I had to come to grips with the fact that like, hey, I can't always play with them after. But some of it's kind of good because they learn how to play independently, you know, and they're old enough. I have an eight and a seven-year-old now. So I'll say, mommy has two more calls today and it's my work and it's what I have to do. And it's normal to them now, right? It's normal. Yeah. So like, go play outside or go play, you know, I gave you a brother, go play with your brother. You're welcome. I got you a friend. So it's like, you know, and it's good for them. I think they're able to do that. And it was a forcing mechanism for me to like have to make them more independent.

So these are those funny little like the nuggets of gifts that kind of are built into sometimes the things that just have to be done. And so that's what that looks like. I generally make dinner, but not always. I like cooking. I went to culinary school before. Wow. So a little not always. I like cooking. I went to culinary school before. Wow. Digression. I like it. I don't always like like week dinners because that's like make it fast and clothing, but I do like cooking. And so we'll do that. One of the things that I

also recommend to people is there's an, it's called a, I think it's like an immersion cooker or something. It's, there's a French word for it, which I'm trying. It'll come to me at some point. And you stick it in the water and it like cooks. Oh, the sous vide. Thank you, sous vide. Thank you. I love a sous vide. And we put our meat in there.

I'll put it in the morning, like when I send the kids off to school. And then it's like held at the perfect temperature all day. And then I just basically sear it for dinner. And I'm so amazing. Look at what I have. I've been slaving away all day. Yeah, slaving.

Like you have a perfectly cooked steak you're welcome I love my one cooker yeah it's kind of like a slow cooker kind of idea but you can do more than stews with it and so I'm a big fan of that all the little tricks to try to like make dinner I'm here for them yeah like and and so that's I try to make it so that for dinner I'm just kind of like searing the meat and then I'm throwing a vegetable in boiling water and like, boom, you have a vegetable and meat and you're done. So that's that. And then they go to bed. Then there's like a whole nighttime routine that happens. Oh, I usually work out. I work out either at lunchtime or in the afternoon. It kind of varies. If I have one of those early days and I don't have a lot of emails, I'll get the workout done. But almost

every day I work out. That's like my time. I know you guys are really into that at your house. So it's like, that's my time where I like can really, it's like for my emotions, I need that to regulate. So that happens sometimes. I do it at home. I love YouTube trainers. So I've done everything. I have done like Pilates and I was like the class pass junkie before the pandemic hit. And now I'm like all about YouTube. Sydney Cummings is like a go-to for me, but it's free. And then what I realized- There's so many great trainers on YouTube.

There's great trainers. And so people like before, you know, it's hard to motivate yourself, to teach yourself. What if you don't know it? All these things. If you have a couple of free weights, heck, you don't even really need free weights. Half of them have like exercise without it. These YouTube, I get crazy workouts. You know, like I have probably in some of the better shape I've been in my life and it's YouTube. I'm not paying anything for it. So it's amazing. And it can do, you can find a 30 minute, an hour, whatever time you have. You can do it

any time of the day. It's like so good. So anyway, I'll do that. Dinner time, kids routine, they go to bed at eight. And then I have like, I love, I get in bed and I either read or I watch shows with my husband. This is like our time of the day. What's a favorite show? Oh God, I have to choose one. I really, I'm going to name the great because it's top of mind. They're like next season is coming out, I think today. Okay, I've not seen it, but I'll get it on the list. I have to say Arcane, because it's amazing, but also unbiased. Yes, Stephen, don't be watching it. I was telling Danielle about it.

Of course, I have to say Arcane, because my husband's company, Riot, they produced this new show, and it's amazing. It's kind of, it's not kind of animated. It is animated, but it's for adults, and so we've been really into that. But yeah, I love TV. It's like such an unwind. It also lets me have a little bit of time with my husband because you can hear in that day, there wasn't a whole lot of couple time in that day. So that's really our little bit of time. And then we both pass out pretty early. It's like a

9.30 bedtime. So that's why I wake up so early. We go to bed pretty early. So. I love that. And I, yeah, I just love how specific you are. So speaking of specifics, if someone is brand new to Lunya and is hearing about all these different products and they're a bit overwhelmed of where to start, cause you have so many products now. I remember when I was buying, there wasn't as many, now there's so many. What would you say are like three of the staple items someone could start with to get a real feel of what the brand is because I know for me it's the pants the pants if you buy them you get it you get what lunia is and you're in so what are the three you think so I think and I'm going to actually base this a little bit less on what I think and more of what I hear from other people I think our um

eye mask would be one of the things that I have. Yeah. It's weirdly cozy. People are crazy about it. Like to the point where most people, they like, they'll first meet me and they'll confess how many they own. Like I have five of them and I keep them in this drawer and this, and there's like a long conversation about where they keep them and how they have like one hidden in case they like can't find one. So I think I have to say the eye mask because that's definitely an item. We just came out with a new one. It's like a souped up version of it that is, it's actually filled with recycled glass beads.

So it's got a little weight to it. So it's like heaven. Your eye masks are like a hug for the face. And they prevent wrinkles. And they prevent the wrinkles. If you have the eye masks that are cottony, they get you wrinkly. Yes, yes.

So there's silk. So it's good. It doesn't like catch on your skin yeah the new one has this weight you can actually put it in the fridge and cool it off you can heat it up you can like give yourself a whole spot home by it's pretty good yeah it's a really good one so so we'll call that being one of them okay i would say um the robe would be another one and it's called the robe. It's a Pima robe. And I'm mentioning this one because I think it's been around a very long time at our company because, and they have to earn that spot. That's like a prestige spot at our company. And so it's been around and I think it's been around because it's very unique in the marketplace and it's unique in that it's a lighter weight robe. So if you're used to wearing like a heavy terry robe,

it's the kind of thing you wear out of the shower, but then you like take it off because it gets too hot. It's too bulky to do things in. This is more of a lightweight robe. It's got sort of a cool asymmetrical top that you can close. It's really a thoughtful robe. It's got the sleeves that you can push up,

a belt that won't get lost, pockets. It's literally like got a slit up the front so when you walk upstairs, you don't trip in it. It's reverse fabric on the back. So when your hair is a little wet, it captures it. I mean, literally like got to slit up the front so when you walk upstairs you don't trip in it it's reverse fabric on the back so when your hair is a little wet it captures it I mean literally like the amount of thoughts that went into it that's probably like the one product I've not got if you also need that let's do it and to looking at it you would never know that that's the obsessive amount of thought that went into that yeah but that's good right like that's not something that's what I feel like is about your brand though it's like it's like effortless for the consumer that's right but has loads of oh look at these

marketing you're like you need to have today and are you coming home with me but it really is like it's like such a pleasure to wear yeah and I for me the reason I love linear is because it just gives me that feel of like, this sounds like really weird, but I'm so excited. I just feel like all like bougie and expensive in it. You know, like I can get to a silk to bed, you know what I mean? Yes. I like that feeling.

I'm doing well in my life. I've got my shit together at least at bedtime. Exactly. And it's like, it's comfortable. I feel great in it. I feel sexy in it too. I'm like, good for you. I think silk is really, especially our silk where it's washable silk, it allows you to have something that is very luxury, but it's accessible from a use case standpoint. Like it's not so precious. Most silk you're like, you're dry cleaning. I'm not dry cleaning my sleepwear, you know? So it lets you have this luxurious item, but make it every day.

And that in itself is a really luxurious concept. I mean, silk in general for us is a, it's big, it's big business for us, but I would say, and it's also something that I think is very commonly thought of as like a special, you know, and I don't think it has to be viewed as a special occasion, but it makes you feel special, you know? And so I do think it's one of those things that people think of in that way. And I know you asked me for three. The other two I just have to say really quick would be like, I would say Pima, I would definitely include. You mentioned it as like an everyday kind of thing. But the seamless underwear and bra, if you haven't tried this yet.

No, I haven't. No, I haven't tried the underwear. It's so good. Okay. It's really comfortable. It's got like a long line bra, so you can wear it. Like sometimes I'll wear it. These are kind of high waist pants. We have some, a number of high waist pants. You can wear the long line bra and it's a really cute combination. Are they specific cup sizes or they can be brilliant because my boobs keep growing at a ridiculous pace. So that's brilliant. Everybody hates you. Your boobs are growing at a ridiculous pace. I'll's brilliant. Everybody hates you. Your boobs are growing at a ridiculous pace.

I'll just, I keep waiting for that day. Mine is, I'm still waiting. I'm still waiting. You're doing another child for that. I know, I know, it's true. It's not worth it. You take those poems with the columns. Yes, it's true.

Get that cage back out. Yes. Okay, I'm going to get that. We're going to buy each of those same Christmas gifts. There you go. Okay. So those would be,

sorry, I realized I didn't, I didn't complete the assignment very well. I went broad. get that we're going to buy each of those same compressions okay um so those would be sorry I realized I didn't I didn't know that's right very well I went broad but I think that the one of the things that's important that I learned over the course of running this company is that not one it's not a one-size-fits-all solution you know everyone sleeps different and I realized to really serve people in sleep I had to have variety because everybody has their idea of what a perfect item is. And the seasons change the answer to that question. And so there are a number of different things. So depending on how you sleep or what is good for you, we tried to create some variety in that way. I love it. Well, Ashley, thank you so much. I feel like we could talk to you all day and quiz you and pick your brain. So thank you so much. Where can everyone find you and find Lunya? Okay. So you can find Lunya at L-U-N-Y-A.co. You can find Lago, which is our men's brand,

L-A-H-G-O.co. And then they both have Instagrams. And then if you want to follow me, it's Ashley double underscore Merrill, spelled M-E-R-R-I-L-L. I love it. And I'll just say, Largo, if anyone's looking for gifts for husbands, I bought the shorts. The Pima, right? Yeah. Yeah.

I bought the shorts for Stephen a couple of years ago, and he absolutely loves them. And he's so picky. So they're a really good stocking gift. And also, they last years, because I've had mine last year, which I love about them. They do. Maybe mine count as vintage now, because I've had some Lugna since the very first collection which I kind of keep now almost just to be like how long will it go I love it yes

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