the bossbabe podcast - 215. How To Tell If You're In A Toxic Friendship

Episode Date: April 26, 2022

Are your friends toxic?  Hint: the answer might surprise you. We have couples therapy, family therapy, individual therapy, but there’s almost no help out there when it comes to handling our friendships. That’s why psychotherapist, Erin Falconer is here to share her guide for managing and growing your relationships to get the best out of life. In this podcast, author Erin Falconer is sharing how to strengthen the friendships you have, attract the friendships you need and break up with the friendships in your life that are no longer serving you.  Highlights: How you can identify a toxic relationship and what to do about it. The anatomy of a healthy female friendship + how to cultivate more of them in your life. What you can do today to make new friends as an adult. How many friends should you have + how many is too many. Why you need different friendship groups for different phases of your life. Links: The Influencer Masterclass Join bossbabe CEO, Natalie Ellis on a free, 90-minute training to gain full clarity on your personal brand, learn how to create easy, consistent content, build an audience of raving followers + generate revenue, without the stress. Done For You Viral Reels Take the guesswork out of what to post on social media with 30 days of done-for-you content. Your Personalized Instagram Audit Get bossbabe CEO, Natalie Ellis’s secret system so you can audit your own IG account, figure out what’s working + what’s not and take your account to the next level. Influencer School Reviews Influencer School Our 12-week, guided coaching and certification program designed to help you gain full clarity on your personal brand, learn how to create easy, consistent content, build an audience of engaged followers and create a full-time income from social media. Follow: bossbabe: @bossbabe.inc Danielle Canty: @daniellecanty Natalie Ellis: @iamnatalie Erin Falconer: @erinfalconer  Read: How to Break Up with Your Friends YouTube: bossbabe: subscribe 

So you might not be the person that is doing the bad stuff, but you are tolerating it. You have to stop and ask yourself, why am I okay with this? Why am I still in this? What in me is being fed by this? Or what am I showing up with? What is my own stuff that I'm projecting onto this person

because I haven't done my own self-work? A boss babe is unapologetically ambitious and paves the way for herself and other women to rise, keep going, and fighting on. She is on a mission to be her best self in all areas. It's just believing in yourself. Confidently stepping outside her comfort zone to create her own version of success. Welcome to the Boss Babe podcast, the place where we share with you the real behind the scenes of building successful businesses, achieving big performance, and learning how

to bounce off. I'm Danielle Canty, co-founder and president of Boss Babe, and your host for this week's episode. Now, today's episode is a little bit different, actually. It's not a topic that we've covered a lot of, but actually a topic that's really dear to my heart because we invited Erin Faulkner onto the podcast. She is a bestselling author. She was author of How to Get Shit Done and Why Women Need to Stop Doing Everything so that you can achieve anything. And since then, she's actually gone on to write a new book called How to Break Up with Your Friends. And I think this is a really interesting topic for us to discuss on the Boss Babe podcast because as you guys know,

Natalie and I founded the society because we were lonely as entrepreneurs we wanted a place to connect with other women and Boss Babe really isn't about Natalie and I it's about the community and the women that are within it so I was really excited to have this conversation with Evan and really like talk about like what does it look like to choose your friends to ensure you don't have toxic relationships about around you and also how do you get the best out of your friendships? How you can lead with love and how what you put in can sometimes mean you get even more out. And so this is such an interesting conversation. Anyone who has girl trauma or doesn't even have girl trauma and just wants to know how to show up better to be a friend, this is a really great episode. So like I said, it's one that we've not really discussed before,

but one I know you are going to find so, so powerful. And if you do love it, I would absolutely love you to share it with me at Danielle Canty, and then also share it and tag us at bossbabe.inc. So Erin, at the beginning of your book, there is a quote by virginia wolf that says some people go to priests others to poetry i to friends now i know some people will be looking at being like i do not relate to that at all i don't go to my friends but i really do i was like that is me like i have a voxer group a whatsapp group like I have friends. I'm like, hey, this has happened. Like help me to navigate this. And I really feel so grateful that I am in that position now, but it wasn't always the case. Like I've had times in my life where

I've had trauma with female friendships or I've had struggles or I felt very much alone. And so I want to do this podcast because I know that there are lots of women that feel like this, particularly as they're transitioning through different times in their lives from school to workplace, maybe into the entrepreneurial career or into motherhood or moving locations, like all these things. But I'm really curious, like what inspired you to write this book? What experiences did you have that was like, I need to write this book? Right. So it's funny. I did not come to this book in a linear way. I had written my first book, which is called How to Get Shit Done, Why Women Need to Stop Doing Everything So They Can Achieve

Anything. And that's firmly rooted in the female empowerment space, but really, really rooted in what female productivity should look like, which is not, you know, what I think is the traditional definition of productivity. And so as I was looking for a follow-up, I went down, you know, a million different rabbit holes, which all ended up being dead ends. I was getting pretty frustrated. And then one day at like 6 a.m., I kind of woke up half asleep, half awake. And this phrase, how to break up with your friends, was just in my head. And I was like, what? And I tried to go back to sleep, couldn't really fall back asleep. Anyways, for the next two or three days, this just kind of kept coming up, resurfacing to the point

where I was like, God, what is this about? Why does this keep coming up? And so I started to look at my own friendships. And when I looked at them, I was shocked to find that I had so many built up irritations or frustrations, or I felt like I missed people, even though I was in the relationship with them. And when I started to kind of peel back the layers of that onion, I was like, oh my gosh, we have this unbelievable source of power and fulfillment and energy right beneath us, right in front of us. And yet we're just not intentional with friendships in the way we are with other relationships, right?

And so even though it's not like a direct to productivity, I was like, wow, if we could really cultivate this group of people that are so meaningful and so important, but often we take for granted, what an incredible source of power and feeling seen and heard and how great that would be able to take that out into the world, out into our careers, out to our families. And so I thought this was a really important topic. And I sold this book February 23rd, 2020. And three weeks later, we went into quarantine. And I thought it was important then. I couldn't have imagined that three weeks later, all of these people would be ripped out of our lives. And we're in these tiny micro bubbles and really had no way to interface in real life with friends. And all of a sudden I'm getting these Zoom happy hour invites. And like some of them, I'm like, oh my God, yes, yes. I want to see you and connect with you. And some of them I'm like, oh, absolutely not. I don't know. No, there's no way I have time for that, which was all such great information. And even though I'd already sold the book, I kept having these epiphanies, right? Just with those Zoom happy hour invites, I was like, this is unbelievable. How come I've never looked at friendship in this way before? You know,

we are a culture that is obsessed with information, right? We know every calorie we're eating, every gram of protein, every fat. We wear watches that tell us every single step we're taking. We don't want to miss, you know, midnight run to the bathroom. Marie Kondo has taught us to look up at a chair and say, does this bring me joy? Does the sweater bring me joy? And yet the people in our lives, no audit, no taking the time to really look at like the landscape of who is in your life, how those relationships are serving you, how you're serving those relationships. And I came to the very quick conclusion that this was a really missed opportunity. And so, yeah, that's

kind of the genesis of the book. And just as the pandemic kept going, as I was literally writing this throughout the entire pandemic, I just kept having these, you know, different kind of awakenings around friendship, you know, as we became more and more separated. And then, you know, so many false starts of getting back into society. And then anxiety rose like, oh, my God, now I have to do something about the knowledge I have. Okay, how do we do that? So, yeah, it's been a real process. Love that. So I really hear you actually on the change of pre-COVID and post-COVID because I actually think whereas before friendships could perhaps really rest on just like being and doing activities.

Right. When COVID happened, it was more about like the communication. Like on Zoom, it was like, you're there talking. So it's all about like your, what you're saying, your visual cues, all of this versus like, okay, we're going to go to a dance class together, or we're going to go for a group meal together. And so I really felt like, you know, during that time, it was a highlight and it kind of put a lot of strain on relationships and friendships alike to, okay, can it survive this? What is actually the roots of this friendship to actually

get through this situation? Because I remember like like I was actually living with Natalie at the time my business partner and I was like wow we must have a really good friendship to be able to get through this we were together 24 7 so you had to like over communicate like what was happening I mean I took all the little things like who's doing the laundry or who's doing the dishes at that point so it's like a completely other level, but with a normal, a normal friendship, I'm really curious as to like, when you were going through this, like the book's called How to Break Up With Your Friends, right? You said that was coming to you a lot. And I want to like start out this by saying, well, how do you know what are toxic relationships in your life?

Like you were saying there were these things that were bothering me about friendships, like these things that maybe had been building up. So can you elaborate a little bit more on that? Yeah, sure. Absolutely. So just quickly, the title of the book is obviously How to Break Up With Your Friends, but there's only one chapter on how to break up with your friends, as you know. There are nine chapters on the absolute importance of friendship and why it's imperative to be doing them better and more intentionally. But so when you reflect and you start to think about, okay, this relationship's not working, why is it not working? The first kind of thing you need to ask yourself is, do I feel like I act or behave or feel differently when I'm in this relationship than I do when I

understand the core of who I am? Do I feel like I'm having to kind of morph into somebody else or I'm pulled into somebody else? There's just a really specific feeling when you're not acting, you know, as your authentic self. And it's hard to kind of put into words, but it's there. It's a feeling. So really pay attention to like, do I feel like I'm just playing a character in this relationship? Do I feel like I'm acting or behaving in ways that I do not otherwise act or behave? That's a really good sign that you're in a toxic relationship. If you leave every encounter feeling bad about yourself or feeling like really irritable,

or if you realize that every time you're hanging out with this person or talking to this person, all you're doing is talking about negative stuff. Like it's fine to like unload and talk shit about, you know, people or about your boss. But if that is literally the core of what's holding you together, that's not a great relationship. And so even though it can really feel good to lean into like the complaining and the, you know, shit talking, it just can't be what defines the relationship. If it is, I would define that as a toxic relationship. And so you can then decide once you have this awareness, can I shift this narrative? Can I still bring out other parts of that person and myself in this relationship so that it is positive and it's not so unbalanced? If the answer is yes, then you need to communicate or guide by actions that that's where you want to go. If it's not, then you need to find a way to get out of that kind of gracefully, right? And so much of this stuff is not like overt, really terrible behavior. That's the problem, right? Obviously, not, obviously, if somebody, you know,

has sex with your boyfriend, we don't need to really talk about this. It's over. I hope, you know, it's over. It's the like- We're cutting that tie. Right. This is done, right? I don't need a script to go off of to end this. You know what I mean? But it's the other things where it's like, habitually, you feel like you're being disrespected, not in big ways, but in small ways where you're not being heard. You're not being listened to. You end up like talking badly about other people when you don't normally do that outside of this relationship, right? And so the only way to really get to the heart of this is to have awareness about it. So much of what we do, because they aren't these big, you know, huge gestures of betrayal or whatever.

It's not, you know, death by stabbing. These relationships are death by a thousand cuts. And so you need to have awareness around what's going on. Otherwise, you can get into situations that you look up from and go, how the hell did I get into this? I love that you define it that way, like death by a thousand cuts, because I think that's really interesting because it's very easy to, and like you say, ending relationships are just like, it's just one chapter of the book. The book is so empowering about bringing female friendships into your life and, you know, making the ones that you have even better.

So I want to make sure like we talk about those and what that communication style looks like. But I think this is a really good point to acknowledge at this moment that you have these friendships that will end because of events that are clearly very unacceptable. But it's also these other relationships, like you say, that don't necessarily bring out your best self. And I just want to touch on that a little bit because I think for a lot of people, it's harder for them to see those things. And it's like, oh, well, it's not a big deal. It's not a big deal. It's not a big deal. And it's like one of those things that I've been in a situation before where it was like, if I told you all these things, you wouldn't, they wouldn't sound, they sound like weird things to say. Like they don't

sound bad if I describe them. But it's like these little bits that chip away. And I think, you know, we've done a few podcasts recently about this intuition and this knowing. And I think sometimes like really leaning into your gut, like, do I feel good about the relationship that I'm in? Like you say, bringing out the best of me. And if that gut instinct is not a yes, but it is a no, that is okay. I don't feel like you actually have to go and justify it so much more than that because I think like sometimes like you know moving away from friendships or ending friendships etc is like oh I need to justify why this is right for me that's like this just I just don't feel good in this relationship too

but also I'm curious like when does it become the point where it's like well actually like that trigger is my trigger and I have my own work on that too because like that's another piece like Natalie and I talk a lot about like personal responsibility totally and it's funny I was actually a girls dinner last night really close group so we we like to talk about a lot of this stuff and I was like well I can be triggered by something and not have to bring it up to the person who's triggered me because I can go and do my own work like I know that it's it's a trigger for me and it's a not really a reasonable trigger and I probably need to go and do the work on it but like what if it's like it is like how do you define those ones like how do you know yeah so I mean again the starting point is just awareness and I think you kind of brought up a really important point that I also talk about in the book.

I hear all the time, oh, she's so toxic. He's so toxic. And for me, sure, there are the outlier people that are just like kind of bad people that are doing bad things. They're manipulative. They're narcissistic, whatever. But when I hear people say that, you know that she's toxic, for me, I say, no, you're throwing the responsibility away. Your relationship with that person is toxic, right? And because it is a relationship, you are in it. It is relational. So you might not be the person that is doing the bad stuff, but you are tolerating it.

You have to stop and ask yourself, why am I okay with this? Why am I still in this? What in me is being fed by this? Or what am I showing up with? What is my own stuff that I'm projecting onto this person because I haven't done my own self-work? And so to just throw it off as this person is toxic is really not taking responsibility. And when you don't take responsibility, you don't have power. You're not operating from a place of power, right? It's much more work and much more of a struggle to take responsibility, but that's the

power position. When you put everything on somebody else, you miss a chance to grow. You miss a chance to have any sort of ownership over your own relationships, right? And so again, I want to be clear that there are definitely bad people and I don't want anybody to blame themselves for the bad actions of other people, but often it is not that simple. And also I wonder if I'm a big believer in that responsibility piece. Like I think that's really key because when you don't take responsibility, you actually give your power away, which is actually a really interesting,

like, circle then because to take responsibility is actually like owning your power. Okay, I can choose to do something about this and this is either I'm going to overcome the challenges that I'm having or I am going to make the steps to leave that relationship slash friendship.

Right, exactly. When you take responsibility, then you can make choices. When you make choices and take action, that's what's giving you energy and power and life. When you let these relationships happen to you, that's the position of being passive. When you are being passive, you have no power. When you are being active and progressive in the relationship and really investing them, taking responsibility, that is the power position. You are being progressive, not passive. And so you always want to be as alive as you can be in all of these relationships, even the bad ones, if only to then get out of it. I want to talk about how you end those relationships when you notice them, because I felt like a lot of people are listening to this

going, okay, I actually realize, I'm realizing that maybe some of these relationships that I have, when I'm saying relationships, I'm meaning friendships. I'm not meaning romantic relationships, but I think it's good practice to call them relationships in some ways because they're relations, you know? And I think when you recognize it that way, it also becomes more like a two-way thing. Like there's two people in this. So when people are like noticing, well, you know what? I don't feel great in this friendship. I don't feel like this is bringing out the best side of me.

I'm acting in ways that I wouldn't normally act. Or I have intuition that just don't think this is the best friendship for me. Like ending some of those can be really difficult. I've had friendships from childhood that I've been friends with people since I was three years old. A lot of my middle school friends just drifted apart naturally and my university friends, I moved countries. But it's very interesting when you're like, oh, I don't know if this is serving me anymore. Right. Yeah. And so that's one of the biggest reasons I wrote the book. I'm a psychotherapist. And when I was diving into this, I was like, you know, it is so weird. There is individual therapy,

there's couples therapy, there's family therapy, but there's nothing for friends. And what that means to me is there's no language around conflict in these relationships. There's no blueprint of how to get into one, how to get out of one. And so we either marginalize or talk ourselves out of our own feelings and out of action, or we try and just muddle through it because we're like, there's just no norms around what to do with these relationships. And these are like the only category of relationships that we think are like nice to have and should just kind of give, give, give, like we don't have to work through them. And of course, if you step back from that, you know, one of the cruxes of any successful relationship is the amount of work you put into it, right? Romantic, family, the relationship with yourself, there's conflict. You need to work through it. You need to know what are generally acceptable ways of behaving in these relationships. And yet there isn't that for friendship. It's funny. I was being interviewed a couple of weeks ago by Maria Menounos,

and she was like, okay, Erin, I have this friend, and we've been friends for so long, and we really like each other. So literally for the last two years, she said, the last 10 to 15 times we've made plans, we'll excitedly make plans, pick a place, whatever. And the night before, without fail, the friend will cancel or the morning of. She said, this is without exception. She goes, look, look at my phone. She pulls up the text and you can just see it, read it. And I said, well, Maria, I've got news for you. You're not in a friendship with this person. You are in some kind of relationship, but this is not a friendship. This person is not committing to you. This person is being inauthentic. She's obviously, you know, she's not making you a

priority or else she really doesn't want to hang out with you. And here you are invested in this. I said, let me put it this way. If this was a guy that you were dating and the last 10 times you made plans he canceled the night before, what would you do? Oh, you'd be done. It wouldn't even make it past four plans. I said, that's because with dating, there's an accepted protocol in the zeitgeist of what is acceptable and what is not acceptable. And of course, it's personal to everybody, but there is a loose understanding that if a guy or girl doesn't follow up on plans four times in a row, it's done, right? But with friends, I'm like, you're just going to keep taking this? 10, 11, how many times to cancel is too many times for you? Because 10 seems ridiculous. And if you put it in the

context, as I said, of something that already has established kind of boundaries and rules and just like normative expectations of like dating, you'd go, why would you ever tolerate that? And yet we're doing it all the time in our friendships because there's no language around this. That is so true. You're're right it's not really a normal conversation you wouldn't ever be like okay you're having relationship challenges oh you might go to therapy or there's like okay like friends are giving um opinions or like there's an expectation of what you expect from uh and you know someone you're in a romantic relationship with but you're right there isn't really this with friends okay so I have some questions then okay this is really cool so what do you do when people

in your friendship group have wounds of being left out I feel like this is a really interesting one because I I don't have this wound if I'm not invited to something, I'm like, cool, I have a million and one things going on right now. Like I am like so chill with that. I'm like, fine. But I've come across a lot of women who have this one or need to be included in everything and associate that if they're not asked, then that means something versus like, well, you probably weren't going to be interested or like, it's just very interesting for me to like witness that becomes like a really big challenge for people. Yeah. So let's take a quick pause to talk about my new favorite all-in-one platform, Kajabi.

You know, I've been singing their praises lately because they have helped our business run so much smoother and with way less complexity, which I love. Not to mention our team couldn't be happier because now everything is in one place. So it makes collecting data, creating pages, collecting payment, all the things so much simpler. One of our mottos at Boss Babe is simplify to amplify and Kajabi has really helped us do that this year. So of course I needed to share it here with you. It's the perfect time of year to do a bit of spring cleaning in your business, you know, get rid of the complexity and instead really focus on getting organized and making things as smooth as possible. I definitely recommend Kajabi to all of my clients and students. So if you're listening and haven't checked out Kajabi yet, now is the perfect time to do so

because they are offering Boss Babe listeners a 30-day free trial. Go to kajabi.com slash Boss Babe to claim your 30-day free trial. That's kajabi.com slash Boss Babe. I talk a little bit about this in the book, and I think it's under the first friendships chapter, which is really understanding the way you've operated from childhood within your friendships. And you'll obviously evolve as you get from preschool all the way up've operated from childhood within your friendships. And you'll obviously evolve as you get from preschool all the way up to adulthood. But that is a very common thing that comes up. And what I would attribute that to is there's this thing in psychology called attachment style. And what attachment style is, when you're born, you have your primary caregivers,

you're presumably your mom and your dad or your two moms, your two dads, whatever, who are supposed to be taking care of you, helping you survive, all of that. And when a parent or a caregiver is not emotionally there, it can create an insecure attachment. And what in a perfect world you want is a very secure attachment, right? You feel like you've been taken care of, that you can go out in the world and there are people that care and love you, but not everybody has that. Or it can be a case where a small child's parent has died or left, like moved away.

And all of a sudden there's an insecure attachment like this person that was so responsible for caring for me has just kind of vanished. And so that can often be translated into the way this person will go out into the world with all their relationships. And so when you're in a group and you don't get invited, it's like, why? Where are they going? I'm not included. What does that mean? And somebody that has a secure attachment will not think twice about it, right? Somebody that understands that regardless of who's will not think twice about it, right? Somebody that

understands that regardless of who's inviting whatever, I am loved, I am worthy, and all of these things. So that can often be directly attributed to having a secure attachment when you're very, very young. And it doesn't mean, you know, that's first of all changeable. You just have to have awareness on it and then go, that's your own work that you need to go work through. But it is challenging when somebody feels, you know, kind of irrationally upset about not being invited or included. The odd time, if they're always not being included, then we don't want to gaslight them. There's something going on. You're not wanted in this group for whatever reason but if it is just like run of the mill like sometimes I get inflated to something sometimes I don't which I think is just common and I think this

is what the really powerful things are about friendship communication is because you saying that and also like that the background of perhaps how you were brought up like I for sure I relate to everything you said from my side of the bridge in the sense of like oh I did have those parents I always felt loved and I felt very secure and wanted there so really everything else was like I had that base security but some of my friends who perhaps don't have that I know about their childhoods and I can see that being like an interesting thing that's like maybe they've not felt the entire time right so then this leads on to like the responsibility of the friends on both sides right because I think this is where the communication comes in and so it's like you know if I if I know that about that person what responsibility do I have as a friend to make

to go out my way to be like hey you are invited to this or like I just want you to know this is happening you aren't invited because of these reasons in this occasion or I just want this one-to-one time with this one person like I'm really like or like actually something happened impromptu that's the other one I think we ended up me running into each other and went for dinner right and then someone feels like left out. So I'm like, where does the responsibilities lie in that communication? So a couple of things. I mean, listen, we're all responsible for our own behavior. Nobody can make us behave or change other than us, right?

Or the desire to do it in ourselves. And so with somebody that has an insecure attachment, or even if it's not that, if they're bringing their own issues into it, but there seems to be a reasonable reason why they are doing it, I think if you are invested in that friendship and you are aware of it, and it doesn't put you out terribly to kind of put caveats around this, you know, be, just be clear in why you're including or not including. And, and that, I think that could be helpful and help kind of calm the situation down. If it's the situation where the friend is making a massive deal about everything and it's taking a lot of your energy to try and manage the situation, that's when you kind of have to

have a conversation and say, listen, out of love I feel like I'm seeing this happen and I can't manage this for you I want to be clear that I want you at all the events that I possibly can it's just you know it would be ridiculous for you to be at every single thing in my life but I feel like you're having an irrational response to what is pretty run-of-the-mill stuff. And I've tried to help you, but I think it's out of my jurisdiction. I'm not sure what's going on. I'm here to tell you that I really love you

and I love this relationship, but I can't support what I think you need support in because it feels kind of irrational. And so you have to be very careful with the words. You have to be careful with how the person is going to receive it. But I think, you know, that's a good example of like, is this, do I care about this relationship enough to be invested in trying to help solve a problem with her? And because that takes a lot of work too, right? And so you want to be careful to not just throw yourself in savior mode with everybody that has a problem because then you're just going to end up

exhausting yourself which are the relationships and the people that really bring you joy bring you joy and deserve your time and energy when they need it and which don't and also recognizing that you're not perfect yourself either right you might have those challenges with you. I have this analogy of my friendships. So I always think like of a glass of water and I think, let's say I'm receiving, right? So let's say my friends are doing things or they're sending me words of affirmation or like they're bringing certain joys to my life, organizing events or all these things. I'm having a good time with them. That means that the water in that glass fills up and the glass is full. And I always use the analogy of like, okay, it's okay. Like friends get to drink from that glass at times. Like it doesn't always have to be like full, but if it's empty,

then we've got a problem. So I'm like, okay, there's going to be little things where I'm like, okay, I'm going to go out my way for this friend, but they filled this cup up so much. Like I have so much water that they can like they've they put the work in they put the goodness and they put the energy in and they get to drink from that let's say right certain times but the way I've like started seeing that is then it becomes really clear for me like okay this this water this there's no water in this glass this person like maybe that example Maria like they're just take take taking they're not like coming with anything they're not giving anything they're just take, take, taking. They're not like coming with anything.

They're not giving anything. They're not replenishing the water in there. So like what's left of it? They're right. There isn't a friendship there, right? So I want to do another. I actually think this is a great and I want to do another one. So one I hear a lot, particularly people in the Boss Babe community, they're very ambitious and they might be really trying to change their situation and their lives, which perhaps old friends do not relate to. So we

all go down these different paths and some people have more contented, like not like lifestyles, but like they don't mind moving states. They don't want to move towns. They want to stay like very close to family, et cetera. And then someone might be there being like, I want to move towns they want to stay like very close to family etc right and then someone might be there being like i want to leave i want to do this i want to travel i want to like start this business and sometimes that can be met with like oh be careful like i don't think you should do that or like this kind of like protect under and sometimes it can be genuine but this protectiveness that actually can be really difficult to hear and understand and can feel like quite, I wouldn't say claustrophobic, but I'm just like, you know,

not feel supportive, I guess. Yeah. I mean, I think you have to be, make a distinction. Is it protectiveness or is it projection? And is that person projecting onto you the fears that they would have about making big steps and big, you know, growth steps or changes in their lives. And often that's the case, right? When somebody's not being supportive of you, especially if you consider that you think that you're in a meaningful relationship with them. Of course, there is, if you were to say, hey, I'm giving away all my worldly possessions and moving to Antarctica, you know, something just really outlandish. If the person say, oh, hold on, have you thought about this? Let's

workshop this. That sounds like it would come out of a place of caring. But if it's just a person that's kind of constantly naysaying what you're doing and like, ooh, like pointing out the negatives as opposed to what could also be positive about what they're doing, you definitely want to pay attention to that. And the truth of the matter is that legacy friendships are some of the most valuable in a sense, because if you've been friends with somebody since like age six or eight, they've seen you in ways that, you know, current romantic partners or current friends can never know about you. They understand where you came from. They understand how you've grown. And so that can be incredibly nurturing and supportive. And it can also be a friendship that you've just hung on to due to amount of time,

as opposed to value that that relationship has in your life. And as people that hopefully are invested in constantly improving and pivoting and revealing different parts of themselves, if you have somebody that is not on that wavelength, ultimately you're going to end up going in different directions. And it doesn't mean that they are going in a worse direction. It's just a different direction from you. And can the relationship sustain those differences? Fundamentally, do you still hold enough core values that are aligned that can sustain that relationship? And often when somebody wants to stay exactly where they've been born and grown up, and then you have somebody that wants to jump into the rest of the world and see what that's all about, it is really hard to reconcile that over time. It feels like a chasm can keep growing and growing and growing. There are exceptions, though, when somebody that's out

there and putting themselves out there in the world really can benefit from those relationships of coming back to them and remembering where they came from, remembering where they're from, being sentimental and nostalgic. And then that can really fill up your energy. And then you can go back out into the world and do the thing that you are. And as long as that's okay for the other person where you're kind of coming in and coming out, then that can also be a very rewarding relationship. But only you can answer that and you to the other person, right? And so again, it just comes back to literally taking an inventory of the relationships in your life and having eyes on that, I think, is like 80% of the problem solving.

It's just the awareness piece is so important. So let's say we're doing the inventory, right? We're looking now, what are things, what is a good anatomy of a good friendship? So I think that first and foremost, both of you have to kind of have the same expectations of what this friendship is. I run across all the time, like one friend that's really irritated because she's constantly trying to plan get togethers with the other person and the other person is irritated because she doesn't have the bandwidth. And so just like energetically, they're not aligned. They are not in the life phase that is aligned. So you want to make sure that you are able to

have a kind of similar bandwidth to give to the relationship. You need to commit to the relationship in your mind. Like this is a priority for me and I'm not going to cancel every time we have a meeting. I'm not going to be really happy if I get it. Oh my gosh, I can't make it. Like I noticed that in myself. I was finding so many relationships where I would get like a late text, like, oh, I'm so sorry, work came up. And I'd be like, yes. I'm like, that is not, no, that's not a good look. That's not right. You should be disappointed if the friend cancels because you really wanted to connect with them instead of relieved, right? All of this stuff is good information to have. So you want to be really committed to it and make the effort. When you are with the person, you want to be actively listening. You don't want

to be distracted and have your phone. It's better to have half an hour of meaningful one-on-one time with somebody where you're really listening and not just to the words they're saying, but like the nonverbal cues because so often that is where the real story and what's going on with the person is. They're saying one thing, but their energy is suggesting another. And so often that is where the real story and what's going on with the person is. They're saying one thing, but their energy is suggesting another. And so noticing that and saying, hey, what's going on with you? Or, oh my gosh, I can tell you're really excited,

whichever way it's going. But putting the phone away and really spending time, that's where you're going to rejuvenate yourself. That's where you're going to give life to the relationship. So I think you've also got to really pay attention to your positivity to negativity ratio, which we talked a little bit about. Are you bringing positive energy, like being intentional about, I'm not just going to slump down in front of my friend and say

the 10 ways that my boss sucked today, you know, even though you can do that, but then also be really conscious about what's good, what, you know, and bringing good energy when you can. If you're going through a really bad phase in your life, then also showing up with that and being honest, right? And also, and this was a really tough one for me, showing up with vulnerability. I talk about in the book the way the different roles friends can have in your life and the role that you play. And so I kind of noticed about myself, like I'm the fixer. Like I'm the girl that my friends call when there's like a big job interview or when there's like a problem or should they break up with a boyfriend or what should I say at this speech I'm giving, you know, that kind of thing.

And I love that role and I love to be helpful and I feel like I'm really providing value. But when I looked at it a little more, I was like, I am really good in that, but I'm also just hiding behind this persona. I'm never showing up with a problem. I'm never showing any kind of weakness because in my mind, that was kind of ruining my friendship cred. This is what people come to me for. I can't like, you know, lean into the parts that I'm scared about. And so I've been really trying to make an effort to be like, when I don't feel a hundred percent certain, kind of share that. And it's been amazing because it's like just opened up the aperture on the entire relationship, right? Like I've presented another

side of myself and then the relationship has presented another role in my life, which I never could have seen. Wow. I love that. I think a lot of people relate to that, particularly as you go through those changes and you might've identified with something previously, but it doesn't really like sit well with like, or feel aligned with who you are now. What are other roles? So there's the creative friend, the friend that you can get, you know, like talk about creative ideas that happens a lot. Like I see with like my entrepreneur friends where it's like they're workshopping ideas and they just can't help. Like that's the person you're going to go to like, hey, I've got feel great. I just feel like I want a soft, warm energy. And we all need that sometimes. There's the legacy friend, which we talked about. There's the friend that you have fun with, the person that's always like, come on, let's go out.

Let's do something that is really good for me because I'm very kind of like an introvert and a homebody. And so on my own volition, I would go out very infrequently, but I have, you know, I'm thinking of two of them right now that are very like, they're always about going out and engaging and being out in the world. And that is really important for me to have friends like that. Otherwise, as I said, I'd be kind of sitting by my house, like by myself in my house or with my family and not out in the world in that way. And then there is the, I list out like, I think like eight or 10 of them. I don't know how many I've said. Creative, nostalgic. I think that's, I think. Yeah, you might have got some

though, right? Yeah, yeah. They're all in the book. Yeah, they're in the book. So when people are looking at like, okay, they're looking at the anatomy of the friends. They're looking at maybe the roles that they play. What about like, how many friends should you have? Like, it's not like a good number of friends. Like, oh, I have too many. So it's not surprising I'm not doing very well. Or like, oh, I really don't have enough variety here. I'm becoming independent on each other. Like, what does that look like? Yeah. So there's no exact one formula and it really does depend. Again, this is like the self-work. Are you more introverted? Are you extroverted? Those needs are very different. Are you an introvert that can have extroverted tendencies? So that's, achieve a serious amount of intimate connection with another person, not sexual, but intimate in the sense that, you know, a tight relationship. Yeah. It takes about 200 hours. And so, and that's 200 like committed hours, not 200 hours of like scrolling phones and like loud, noisy places. You know what I mean? So,

so that's actually a lot of hours. And so if you do the math on that to have, you know, more than five or six people where you're committing that amount of time to seems like the math starts to not add up. Right. So I think like looking at your kind of core group, you probably want to have anywhere from five to eight. And even within that five to eight, you're probably going to have one or two ride or dies, which are going to have the lion's share of your time and energy, but you're really committed to the other five or six in there as well and are available to them emotionally. Then as you look outward, you'll have your kind of more situational friends, like maybe your mom friends, maybe you'll have your work friends, maybe you have your golf friends or whatever, you know, your sport friends that you

really love your time with them and you do kind of mom events or you work with them or you play tennis with them, but you don't do a lot outside of those arenas, right? So those are really rewarding relationships, but they're kind of in their own bubbles. And of course, you can meet a work friend that ultimately then becomes in your main kind of crew. But generally speaking, those are like outside bubbles that are friendships. They're just not like ride or die. And they deserve energy and respect and to kind of be nurtured, but not at the same group, these core group of people have. And then I also talk about like the importance of the acquaintance, not as a friend necessarily, but I noticed in myself,

like there were so many people that I saw regularly, but don't really have a relationship with, but completely was like, oh my God, please. I hope they don't talk to me. Okay. I hope I'm not going to talk to them for more than, you know, like I talk about like the barista that I see every morning where I get my coffee and I'm like, please don't say hi to me. Like, I just want to be in my bubble. And I realize, and there's a lot of science in the book about why that is a real backwards way of thinking and that even just the brief moment to say hi and thanks for the coffee and really kind of share a moment of energy with somebody can set you off on a really good course for the rest of your day. And so like actually choosing to engage

is always, I think the best way and something that I was really not doing a lot of in my own behavior. And so a lot of the book, there's obviously a ton of research and a ton of, you know, homework and takeaways to do. But as I was writing it, there's obviously a ton of research and a ton of, you know, homework and takeaways to do. But as I was writing it, there's also like a very big experiential component where like real time, I'm kind of experimenting, doing these things, getting out of my comfort zone and like then reporting back on how that went. I'm glad you've said that because I think that's part of the big block for a lot of people is like they stop experimenting with friends like they say like okay I've got my friendship group that is it or like these are just the friendships that I have versus like okay I want to I want to create better friendships and that can be with the same people that doesn't mean that you have to change friendship groups or anything you can just invest more into totally

and learn about each other and I think actually just listening to this podcast if you're listening to this obviously friendships in your mind share it with maybe your friendship group or listen to it and have this conversation by the book, read it so that you can support each other because there are friendships in your life that you've seen maybe, and you've witnessed and you want more of, like you get to have more of that. First of all, it's like the choice to, and then it's like taking the responsibility to, to really invest in those. So the other part that I want to bring up because you know some people are like wow I have friends already in my life I just get to do better like I get to like do more with them and really lean into them more but some people will also be listening going do you know what I am missing

these types of women in my life. And also actually, quick question. This could still be like, you could have male friendships too. Like this isn't just about female friendships either. No, definitely. I mean, I think that there is a decided difference in the way men do friendship and some of which I really like. Like I feel that men are much clearer when something irritates them and they're just

like, hey, that was not cool. Why did you do that? Oh, I did that because of this. Oh, well, that sucked. I'm so sorry. Or, hey, no, I did that because you were a jerk. Oh, really? I didn't know that.

Oh, da, da, da. And even if they have words, it's like they get to the heart of it, and then it's done. They're not walking around carrying resentments or caring. It's just like, okay, good. We solved that. Now let's go play basketball. And so while I don't think men have necessarily relationships that are as deep or nuanced as women, they also, I think, have a lot less emotional baggage that they're carrying around with them because they are clear in the way they're kind of feeling. And at least when it

comes to conflict, I don't think they're talking, sitting around talking about their deepest, you know, romantic yearnings or, you know, in the way that like women do, but I do think the way they navigate conflict is something to look at. And I know my, my own relationship with, with guy friends, I have three really good guy friends and I communicate so much differently than with them. Like, I'm not afraid to say for five seconds, if they irritate me, I'm like, what? No, not cool. Like, and yet I do not do that. I'm like workshopping every single different possible scenario that could happen. If I said something, is that going to hurt her feelings? Is she going to think I'm a bitch? Am I, do I even have a right to say this? I don't know. She's going through a hard time. And before you know it, I've talked myself out of saying anything, which just literally does not happen with my guy friend. I've got no thought other than I'm

irritated. Here's why I deal with it. Say you're sorry, or else let's duke it out. And I'm not really, but like, you know, mash through it and then get on the other side of it. So yeah, this certainly does not limit, you know, all of this information I think is good for women in whatever relationships, friendships they are, male or female. It this information I think is good for women in whatever relationships, friendships they are, male or female. It particularly, I think is helpful though, between women to women. Yeah, no, I love that. And like I said, I think that it's, it also helps like if you want to change and evolve that like you all go like set the intention, right. Get closer, et cetera. But let's say like you don't have those women in your lives and you're like, okay, I want to, I want to find more like-minded people or doing similar things that I'm doing more things in

common like how do people go about making new friends because this is something we get asked a lot in the society we've been doing like a business bestie thing for people to meet each other etc but like just if you're not in a really good community or like like you're and about and you're like, oh, I've stumbled across this podcast. I'm listening. I want new friends. How do you do that? Right. So, again, you need to start with where you're at with life, where you want to go, project out into the future, and what kind of relationships or people are going to be best to support that and for you to be able to support those relationships. And then once you do that, I think probably like the biggest kind of group you want to tap into

are friends that do share your core values and your core principles, right? And your core kind of view of the world. For me though, what's really important is to look at who has the same kind of core values, but also has a different kind of set of life experience. So what you don't want to create is like an echo chamber of people that are just exactly like you, even though it's good that they have the same core values, that you're kind of just mirroring each other back to each other. And because in that situation, while it's good to have a lot of people, a handful of people that are really like you, it's good to have things mirrored back to you.

You can't have a group that is exclusively mirroring you back to you. And I think that that's what we've seen where we've got these big silos of people that are just, it's echo chambers, where there's no new ideas. Everybody's agreeing. There's nothing contrarian.

So you want to be able to find groups of people that are like you, but also have the same core values of you, but might bring a different life experience to the table. Number one, it's more dynamic. Number two, it will also reveal different parts of you. You will reveal different parts of yourself in the interactions with people

that have different experiences from you. So it's not just about a really, you know, fertile relationship. It's about a big self-growth opportunity, right? So, but if literally, how do you find these people? Well, I think what you have to do is number one, be really intentional. I think making the choice, even like out loud, like I need new friends, I want to find new friends. And setting that intention for yourself is really important. Because otherwise, we just live in our heads, right? And it's like, oh, God, thinking to yourself, I'd like new friends.

And then all of a sudden, you're thinking about what happened on The Bachelor last night. And then you're like, I've got a work email. And then that idea of new friends kind of goes, right? So really making a point to be intentional about getting new friends is the first step. Then you need to identify, okay, what do I really like to do? Do I like to bike?

Is that something I'm interested in? Well, maybe it will be fun to bike with other people. I know they're going to like biking. So let me put myself out there in a way that I know we have at least one thing in common, right? And then when you get there and you take that action to really be present and open to other people's energy and see what sticks, right? You don't want to go around being like, hey, I'm looking for new friends. You seem nice. You want to just be open to the energy that's there

and see who feels pulled to you or you feel pulled to them and then act on it, you know, and say, not in the first meeting, but like, hey, you start to get an idea, like, wait, energetically, I feel kind of connected to this person. So say, hey, do you want to get a coffee after biking? Do you want to go for a drink? Do you want to go see a movie? Whatever. It's kind of like dating, honestly. It kind of is. Let's say you have a dog. Well, when now you go to the dog park instead of just taking them for a walk, okay, now you've got, you know, 10, 15 other people that all have dogs there. Are you going to want to be friends with all those people?

No, but there might be one there. And it's just about engaging and starting a conversation, seeing if it feels right for you, right? And being okay if it doesn't feel right and go, okay, on to the next. You already know you both like dogs enough to take them to a dog park. That's something right I love that and I think it's just like losing the stigma around making new friends totally because I've been like chatting about this like obviously I was living in the UK and I moved to a new country a new city I was fortunate that I did have because Natalie was living here I was able to like enter

some part of the friendship group already but one thing I was like I was able to like enter some part of the friendship group already. But one thing I was like, I was like, okay, there's some amazing women here, but I still don't have many friends. So like, how can I be more intentional about it? And I would just like literally put it out there. And it sounds like so lame to some people. I was like, oh yeah, I've just moved. Like I'm looking for new friends. Like I'm like, I literally am so excited to make loads of new friends and like just started having that open conversation. And then I was getting introduced to people like oh you should meet so-and-so you're going to get along with her so well right and that was like really eye-opening for me that like first of all when I said that people were like did she just say what I think she's like oh that that was bold just to come out there but actually people really like that vulnerability because I think all of us

like we also have that little girl inside of us who's like I used to remember going to knock on people's doors and like hey is someone so coming out to play do you want to play do you want to be my friend like yeah and I think like just letting go of that like even in adulthood friendships I probably until I till 2021 didn't realize the power that relation like friendships paid in my life like I definitely went through my life previously we were like very much on the edge of friendship groups like I was never really fully in or invested in being fully in either because probably I had that you know love for my family I wasn't like I never really prioritized friendships but moving abroad and going through probably last year which was like one of my hardest years like my friendships got

me through that like the women in my friendships got me through that like the women in my lives got me through sane like you know and it was really powerful for me to see how much that brings to my life how much fun and joy and love and all these things and I think that you know that you know you say in the book it's like modern friendships like that looks definitely and we get to have these conversations that we get to say like hey I'm really looking for friends I'm looking for people that are on a similar journey to me I'm looking for people that you know maybe doing those same things and likewise you know Natalie now is pregnant she's going through her own journey she's going to be like looking for like okay who are my mom friends because Danielle's not going to relate to this stuff that I'm going

through right now but not only who are my mom friends but who are my mom entrepreneurial friends who get running a business at the same time as having a family. And I think just like owning that and calling that out and just being like, you're always going to be looking for like perhaps new friends or adding to that group or whatever that is because of the cycles that we're all in. Exactly. Exactly. And that's why it's so important to keep your eyes open and kind of always be like open to, do I feel a connection with this person? Great. Let me lean into that and see what's there, you know, because we are evolving, we are changing. And sometimes that's our intuition, as you said, guiding us in the right direction. We just need to be paying

attention to it. And so I think as we navigate all these big changes or like a global pandemic, having a support system that is dynamic and understands that we are dynamic is so, so important. I've heard this time and again, my friends got me through this pandemic. My friends got me through this pandemic. And so what an incredible endorsement of friendship. And I just hope we don't lose that going back in to really understanding there is a wealth of energy and power and support here that you want to be capitalizing on. Yeah, for sure. And I think like, you know, sometimes women get a bad rap, like, oh,

they're bitches or groups of women are mean and all this stuff. But honestly, like probably films like Mean Girls and that don't really have like those titles. But like, honestly, if anyone's listening, like I have literally made the best friends. And I think one of the key things is being vulnerable, taking the responsibility for like my own actions, knowing that none of us are perfect. We all are going to like trigger each other at some point, but just feeling like, okay, we have good intentions. And I think that's the other thing that Natalie and I have really done that's got us through our relationship and business and life together is because we're like, okay, well, we know we both have good intentions. So maybe it wasn't perceived that way or something happened, but let's just come back to the foundations. Like, I know that none of us are trying to, neither of us are trying to upset

each other. So like, what can we do then to make sure we don't run into the same gap again? Perfect. Exactly. That's exactly what you want to do. And I think that is a great reminder to be like, I know this person loves me and has good intentions. And so just as you said, I couldn't have said it better. It's like maybe something got lost in translation or some, one of us acted out of character or whatever, but at the core, there's a respect and love there. And so let's try and understand what happened so we can get back to, you know, just to that level of respect and admiration. So I want people to share this podcast, first of all, as like an intro, because I feel like this is starting a great conversation

around what friendships look like. And then I would love for people to do the book club together almost, like have it in your friendship group. So let's say someone's listening to this, they're inspired, they're like, oh my God, this was such a good episode. Like I want my friends to read, like listen to this and then buy the book. But how do they suggest that? Because I also felt like,

let's give them like a little script that they can say so it doesn't come across like, hey, I'm not really happy with our friendship group. Like what can they do? Well, here's the funny thing is that, so I wrote this entire book and right when I was about to be finished, I realized that I had not interviewed

my absolute best friend. And which was a horrifying epiphany because, you know, talk about taking something for granted. Right. And the, of course, the reason I didn't think of it is because we have such a great relationship that I was of all the things that, you know, I was just like that none of this really pertains to her. But when I had that epiphany that like, great, I'm going to put this book out, I was going to put this book out without even really mentioning my absolute best friend. I was like, wouldn't it be cool if we could, even though there's no like real friction in our

friendship at all, we're like, you know, like two peas in a pod. I was like, wouldn't it be interesting then for us to ask each other some, you know, some challenging questions, some fun questions and some challenging questions and see, you know, what comes of it. And so I wrote, I think there's like maybe 12 or 15 questions that I had her come over to my house and I gave her, you know, I handed her a piece of paper with the questions and I was like, okay, we're going to ask each other all of these and and do them and it was kind of awkward very fun I was like totally like had armpits sweating I was like oh my god I was got a lot of unexpected answers and we workshop a lot of stuff that was like not major but again you want to kind of head off the death by a thousand cuts you know this is a really good

way to do it when you don't even understand that there's maybe micro things percolating under the surface. We got to some stuff that we never would have gotten to if we hadn't, you know, been sitting intentionally asking each other these questions. And so I think it's a great place to start it, not even necessarily if you're having great friction with somebody, but like, Hey, we have a great relationship. This would be really interesting to do and see like, is there anything below the surface relationship. This would be really interesting to do and see like, is there anything below the surface? Is there anything like you want to say to me or I want to say to you that I haven't even thought about, but now I'm thinking about? Here's a great opportunity. I love that. So what we're going to do, you're going to share this, subscribe, listen,

and then in the links, the show notes, we're going to put a link to buy Evan's book, How to Break up with your friends and like you said right at the beginning most of the chapters are about making better friendships and i think that's what's really important and we all deserve those and so my my want and my wish for those listening is that they feel empowered to create those friendships in their life because i do really feel like everyone deserves the best female friends who support them cheer them on all those things so thank you you, Erin, for number one, writing the book and second of all, coming on and sharing about it. This was so, so good.

Oh, thank you for having me. Quite often our listeners want to share their takeaways as well. So do you want to just share your social handles? Sure. So at Erin Falconer on all social or at Pick the Brain, which is my blog, and then erinfalkner.com. But you can just DM me on at erinfalkner on Instagram. I love that. So please share with us your favorite takeaways with Emma and myself and at bossbabe.inc. We'd love to hear and share with us if you do this exercise, share with us if you get the book. I would love that. We would really love to hear.

Thanks guys. Thank you. thank you if you enjoyed this episode we would love it if you subscribed and left us a review let us know what you enjoyed what your main takeaways were and who you'd like to see appear on the show as a special thanks we'll send you a copy of our boss babe 25 now this is an awesome resource it's the 25 essential things that you need for personal and professional growth. We've included everything from must-have products to books to rituals. This guide literally covers it all and I know you're going to love it. So if you want your copy, simply leave us a review and then send a screenshot of your review to podcast at bossbabe.com.