the bossbabe podcast - 223. How to Read Peoples’ Body Language & Control Your Own

Episode Date: June 14, 2022

Have you ever considered what your superpower might be, if given a chance? The ability to fly? Super strength? It’s hard to go wrong. But what if you gained the ability to read the emotions of those around you – even know when they’re lying?  And what if we told you these powers were there for the taking – with a little practice? Vanessa Van Edwards is an expert on people – specifically, how we behave. She wrote the book on human behavior, literally! As a researcher, she’s studied social cues and body language for seventeen years and packs so much actionable information into this episode – you’ll want to listen twice.  We are not exaggerating when we say that this interview is one of the best of the year – maybe even one of the best in the entire bossbabe catalog. We strive to provide our community with the most tactical, attainable and impactful advice we possibly can. We promise, this one really stacks up. Listen in as Vanessa unlocks the secrets to respect, confidence, authority and authenticity – and don’t be afraid to pause and take notes! Highlights: What non-verbal signs you’re sending out + what they’re telling people about your attitude Things you can do TODAY to project more self-confidence in every interaction The formula for how you should be sending your emails + starting your Zoom meetings How to tell if someone isn’t telling the truth + what questions to ask to get the REAL story Links: Vanessa’s Free Likability Training – 3 secrets you can use to develop greater influence, lead teams and reach success faster! Science of People – Explore related content, feature articles and media – and order Vanessa’s books. Vanessa Van Edwards YouTube – Join over 740k subscribers in following Vanessa’s research and speaking appearances. Get the book: Captivate Get the book: Cues Follow: bossbabe: @bossbabe.inc Danielle Canty: @daniellecanty Natalie Ellis: @iamnatalie Vanessa Van Edwards: @vvanedwards Linkedin: Vanessa Van Edwards YouTube: bossbabe: subscribe

I'm a recovering awkward person. So I have a very distinct social problem where I misinterpret cues. My decoder is broken or it was broken. So what happened to me is I would constantly be misinterpreting neutral cues as negative, or I would misinterpret negative cues as positive. And so I was constantly, I didn't understand why I wasn't coming across the way I wanted to come across. I would go into pitches and not understand why I got a no. I'd get a lot of, yeah, yeah, we'll let you know. And then not realize why I wasn't closing. What was happening was I realized there was this hidden language. The people were sending me all these facial expressions, gestures, posture, and I couldn't read them. So my journey starts with, I wondered,

can we study body language like we study for a foreign language? Like, could we literally learn the terms and the cues, and then we can just read them? And the answer, thank goodness, is yes. A boss babe is unapologetically ambitious and paves the way for herself and other women to rise, keep going, and fighting on. She is on a mission to be her best self in all areas. It's just believing in yourself, confidently stepping outside her comfort zone to create her own vision of success. Hello and welcome to the Boss Babe podcast, the place where we share with you the real behind the scenes of building successful businesses, achieving peak performance and

learning how to balance all. I'm Danielle Canty, Boss Big Co-Founder and your host for today's episode. So let's dive straight into this one because it is fascinating, you guys. I don't often use that word when describing podcast episodes, but this one really was completely fascinating to me because, actually, let me rewind a second and ask you this question before I tell you what this is about. So have you ever had a chat with someone and realized that their body language was giving off a totally different message or it was kind of making you feel like they were really uninterested and closed off to what you were saying? It wasn't what they were saying. It was just like how they were positioned in their body, right? I know you have.

What about this one too? Have you ever like, let's say, I'm sure lots of your managers or you have your own companies, like interviewed someone and they're saying the right thing, but they're just monotone and they're kind of giving no indication they actually even want the job. And you're like, are you actually excited? Because I'm reading you like you're not? Well, these small forms of communication, they're actually called social cues. And today's guest knows all about these minor and the major forms of these types of communication. And her name is Vanessa Van Edwards. And we sat down and chatted about the importance of not only being able to read and understand people's body language, but also how to master your own so that you can ensure you're interpreted in the correct way.

So Vanessa is a TEDx speaker, a YouTuber. She's got something like over 50 million views. She is the owner of a company called Science of People. And she is fascinated by social cues. She's studied them. And she's also studied the laws of human behavior. And in this episode, she came on and she taught us, she taught me, she taught you. I asked a million questions, and it was absolutely fascinating to me from everything to being able to read someone opposite you, to being able to tell if someone is lying or not, to be able to tell whether someone is closed off to information, but then also how to control your own body language, like what positions you need to be in on a sales page. Like a lot of you are selling maybe on video or on a

static sales page or actually in person and really understanding what your body says and what subliminal messages are being sent by the tones that you use or the positions that you put your body in. And here's another good one that she talked about. She also talked about conversations with your partner. So listening to their tonal cues and what they are saying to work out whether they're sincere in what they're saying or whether they may be telling you a little white lie. So, I mean, if you are not intrigued by this point, I don't know what's going to get you more excited about this podcast because it was so freaking good. And I actually got off the podcast, rang my team, was like, we need to make these changes. We need to make these changes. And then I was chatting to my friend and I was like, wait, are you being honest

with me? Because you kind of look like you're crossing your arms and other things. Anyway, you're going to love this episode. I also, I'm going to ask you, I'm obsessed that you, I'm convinced. Let me say, I'm convinced that you guys are not going to be obsessed with this episode. So can you tag me and send me your DMs after listening at Danielle Canty? Because I really, really want to hear your thoughts and find out if you were actually as fascinated as I was. Because I actually feel like I want to get Vanessa back on for even more insights. So if you feel this way,

let me know. DM me at daniakanti on my Instagram account. And also, if you love this, please give us a five-star review. No four stars or under, please. Just five. That's what I'm requesting right now, because they really mean the world to me. And I love your feedback. And also feel free to drop any guests that you would love to hear from. Anyway, I'm going to let us dive right in now. You're going to love it. See you on the other side. Vanessa, welcome to the Boss Babe podcast. Oh, I'm so happy to be here. Thanks for having me. I'm really excited about this one because I've known for a long time, even from my time being a chiropractor, that most of what I think is like between 70 and 93% is argument on the stats, is our body language is doing the communication for us. A lot of that is like nonverbal

communication. And this was really evident for me when I was a chiropractor when I could tell if someone was in pain or like what their body was saying about them in that moment and obviously that's an extreme circumstance but on the day-to-day our body says so much about us so I want to have this podcast like really getting into the nitty-gritty around like how we read other people's body language and how we kind of control or a bit more intentional about our own, because I feel like this is a hidden hack, which is going to help so many ambitious women and female entrepreneurs. This is my favorite hidden hack. The reason is because I think that as ambitious women, we prepare the perfect thing to say, right? So we think of a great presentation. We think of

the perfect answer. We script out or rehearse our words. The problem is, is that's like putting all of our charisma eggs in one basket. We actually have so much potential with our body language. And what research finds is that what we're looking for when we're interacting is congruence. We want to see people, people who are highly charismatic, they match powerful words with powerful body language or trustworthy words with trustworthy body language. And what we don't realize is there's actually two different aspects to body language, which I'm hoping we can talk about both. What we don't realize is there's decoding and there's encoding. So decoding is being able to quickly read someone's emotions, looking at their facial

expressions, their gesture, their posture. And as you mentioned, I could tell if someone's in pain. It is a superpower to walk into a meeting or walk into interview or walk into a date and know if someone's uncomfortable, confident, impressed, charismatic, open, closed. We can read all that by decoding body language the other aspect is encoding so encoding are the signals we send to others so this is knowing how we can come across as open versus closed versus powerful versus credible versus warm there's actually different cues that we can send the world to show up as we want to be seen.

I think that our body language tells the world how we want to be treated. I love that. And I think that's so powerful. I want to talk about both of those things, because to me, encoding where, like you said, you're responsible for your own is really, really powerful because so many women are going to ask for negotiating their pay rises or they're pitching their product or they're showing up on social media. I think that's really powerful. So let's talk about decoding body language and what are certain things, how do we read people? How do you adopt the superpower, Vanessa? Just tell me everything right now. I'm going to tell you. I'm going to tell you everything. It's actually shockingly easy. So

just a little bit of information on the back end of this is I'm a recovering awkward person. So I have a very distinct social problem where I misinterpret cues. My decoder is broken, or it was broken. So what happened to me is I would constantly be misinterpreting neutral cues as negative or I would misinterpret negative cues as positive. And so I was constantly, I didn't understand why I wasn't coming across the way I wanted to come across. I would go into pitches and not understand why I got a no. Now I get a lot of, yeah, yeah, we'll let you know.

And then not realize why I wasn't closing. What was happening a lot of, yeah, yeah, we'll let you know. And then not realize why I wasn't closing. What was happening was I realized there was this hidden language. The people were sending me all these facial expressions, gestures, posture, and I couldn't read them. So my journey starts with, I wondered, can we study body language like we study for a foreign language? Like, could we literally learn the terms and the cues and then we can just read them? And the answer, thank goodness, is yes. We can actually decode cues as specifically as spotting other language. So let's talk about some of my favorites. So very, very simply, first, I always, when I'm decoding someone, I'm looking for confident

and anxious. And the reason for this, the reason why this is helpful is because we like to be around confident people. When we spot confident cues, we catch them. And research has actually found this. The reason we're drawn to highly charismatic people is we want to catch their confidence. Whereas anxious people, people who aren't confident, we don't want to catch those cues. We don't want to catch their anxiety.

So that's the first thing is what we're looking for are which bucket of these cues. And I actually don't want to catch their anxiety. So that's the first thing is what we're looking for are which bucket of these cues in. And I actually don't want to start with anxious. So low confidence or anxiety comes from doubt. So a couple of cues that we always want to look out for. So first is the amount of space that someone takes up. So research has found that the amount of space someone takes up in the world directly correlates to how they feel about their place in the world. So researchers from University of British Columbia, they found that across genders and cultures and races universally, when athletes lose a race, they take up as little physical space as possible. They roll their shoulders in, they tilt their chin to their chest. They often cross their chest, cross their arms or grip their hands into fists. They even scrunch their face up. This is because in shame and defeat, we try to be as, we don't want people to notice us.

We also want to protect our vital organs. So if you are with someone and you see that they are suddenly rolling in, crossing arms, tilting down and taking up a little amount of space, you know that something you said or the way they feel means they are having trouble physically, literally claiming their space. This is so interesting. And when we say, can we just define what a cue is for a lot of people listening? Because a cue is like, for me, and I just want to make sure I've interpreted it from what you were saying. It's like a body, either a body language movement or something in, is it tone of voice too, or gaps between how they're placed in words? Perfect. Yes. Sorry. I should have, I should have defined it from the beginning. A cue is a social signal humans send to each other.

So this, there are four different channels of cues. There's body language, there's words, there's also vocal. So your tone, your volume, your pace, your cadence. And then the last one is your imagery. The colors we wear, the things behind us in our background, the props we carry, the fonts we use, the colors in our branding and marketing. For example, when we see red and white on a can, we think Coke. That's an imagery cue.

When we see green and yellow on a can, we think Sprite, right? So even those cues can also change our perceptions of a brand or emotions. So cues are any kind of social signal that we send. And body language is the biggest channel. That's the channel that we're using the most in our interpersonal interactions. That is so interesting about the Coca-Cola and Sprite thing, because you're so right. And funny note, moving from the UK to the US, I really noticed this when going to the supermarket, because I wasn't familiar with brands. And now I'm realizing it, I wasn't familiar with the queues.

So it would take me so long to shop. It would take me twice the time because I had to read everything to work out what it was, versus when you're familiar with it. So now I'm seeing this translation of, oh yeah, like when I'm familiar with body language, I probably get on with that person more because I'm like, oh, I recognize this. You're familiar versus, oh, hang on a minute. I don't really understand how you're moving your body or how you're speaking. It's very unfamiliar to me. And now I'm like, wow, this is so interesting because it happens so subconsciously on so many different levels all the time. So this is really, really powerful stuff that we're talking about here. I also think like for content creators or people who are trying to craft their own brand personally or professionally, the cues that you send, the more consistent they are, the more powerful your brand is.

And so when we look at down to even the colors of our feed, right, the more similar those colors are, the more on brand they are, the more that people will recognize our posts when they're reposted. So there's also cues like even the smallest cue. So another confidence cue that we can talk about is hand gestures. So we like seeing hand gestures that shows intention. Confident people typically use more gestures and more explanatory gestures. So they'll use their hands to demonstrate or explain with their words. So a confidence cue that we like to look for or decode is, are you giving me clear and precise and purposeful hand gestures? We noticed on our YouTube channel that if I use a thumbnail of myself showing a specific hand gesture, it doesn't even matter what the gesture is. I could be, you know, holding up three fingers. I could be talking about something small. I'd be talking about something big,

the more precise my hand gesture, we get more clicks. And that is just one of those. Yes. We've played around with how even our gestures and our body language in some of our thumbnails and our clips and our content can completely change engagement. There's another one. So on our website, we were having trouble with opt-ins. So for anyone familiar in the content creator space, an opt-in is when you ask for emails. And that's a big part of our business is getting people to get some of our deeper tips. We were having trouble with opt-ins and I wondered if we could use gaze body language cues. So gaze cues are very specific. So a confident person likes to make eye contact with the other person. And this is because it produces oxytocin. So good, confident people make eye contact. What's interesting though, is we also look to confident

people to where we should look. So for example, if I were in a video to look up at the ceiling, it would be hard for you to not, not also look up at the ceiling, even though we have two different ceilings. And that is because we look for gaze cues to see what are they looking at? So what we did in our website, we did a little experiment where we took pictures of me. I used to face the camera. I had pictures of me just facing the camera. We changed them where I was looking over at the opt-in and we doubled our opt-in rates. My mind is blown right now. That is, so this is why these conversations are so freaking genius. So we've got people, if you're in person, you can learn how to be more confident. So you've got your hand gestures and you've got that eye contact

and making yourself bigger. Got it. And then if anyone's designing sales pages, the key things are to make sure there's some hand gestures really like pointing towards something or doing, okay, doing something you're doing. I love this on the YouTube channel, you're doing all the images and then looking up to that button. We've just all made more money and doubled our opt-ins. Let's double our opt-ins. And here's another one I'll give you, which works for both. I like hacks that we can use in all areas, right? Like I like hacks that we can use in person or sales pages, or also by the way, LinkedIn profile pictures, dating profile pictures. Like we can expand this as much as we want. So I did an experiment with my friend, Brian Dean. Brian Dean is a content

creator. He runs a website called Backlinko, which helps people with their SEO. And I noticed on his header, on his homepage, he had a picture of him with crossed arms. So neutral face, crossed arms. Now, research is very clear on this. Even though we instinctively know that people just cross their arms when they're comfortable, we still don't like people who are blocking. Instinctively, when we're with someone, when we see someone, we want open to open. We want chest to chest. I don't want anything blocking my ability to connect with you. So that could be arms. That could be a clipboard. I do a lot of trainings with doctors.

Anytime someone's blocking their chest, we think they're closed. And research has shown that when people sit in closed posture, they come up with less creative ideas. So instinctively, we know that closed body equals closed mind, and we don't like to be around closed people. So I saw his header on his website, and here he is, Brian Dean. He says, sign up to my email for great tips. Read my website for great tips. I said, Brian, you are signaling with your body closed, closed-mindedness. Please, let's do a split test. Let's do a split test on your homepage.

Let's do two different homepages, one exact same setting, same colors, same everything, same closed body, and one same picture, same colors, same setting, open body. So we ran the test. He got 5.4% more opt-ins. Now that is a huge number. I know that in the opt-in world, that sounds small, that translated into six figures of more opt-in, of more email subscribers with one body language change. So one, please check your LinkedIn profile pictures,

your dating profile pictures, your Facebook, your Instagram, your TikTok. Make sure you have an open body. It literally signals open mind. And second, if you're asking for something, you want to have an open body. If you're pitching or asking for a raise or trying to connect with someone, it is physiologically harder to connect with someone when you're talking and listening like this. Oh my God, that's insane. I'm like, wait, I need to go and change some of my images immediately. Even the podcast one, I think I've got my arms folded. No, actually we should do a split test and we should see how it looks different. Can you get any more, any more clicks? We literally should. This is fascinating to me.

So, okay. I just want to keep repeating back because my thing is when listening to podcasts, I always want people to be like very, very actionable. So right off the bat here, if they have websites, if they have profiles, dating profiles, want to attract people into their Instagram, whatever that is, then they need to be thinking about open postures, making sure that they're still looking big, being aware of where their eye contact is to really like lead that person onto that next section. So that is just insane. And then from there, when it comes to just being confident, generally, let's talk a little bit, because we touched on a few of these pieces with like probably like when you're saying bigger I'm seeing like shoulders pulled back versus like hunched over like um but just talk to me a little bit around like because I feel like confidence is such a big

thing for so many women particularly and you know you mentioned earlier there's body language but also have tones in your voice and I was teaching as you know at Lisa Bell use and I spoke about I always do box breathing um yeah like I breathe in for four hold for four breathe out for four and hold out for four to slow my heart rate down which then in turn helps me focus my speaking like I slow down my speech versus just you know rabb, rabbiting on really, really quickly. So what are some things that people can do if they don't feel confident, but they want people to think they're confident? Okay. So box breathing is actually a really great, great tool. And it also helps your vocal power. So I'm going to tell you a very weird distance

that it helps you and it helps other people. So it's the distance between your earlobes and your shoulder. I know that sounds like a very, very odd distance, but what happens is when we're nervous or anxious, we creep our shoulders up and we tilt our chin down. And so this, this distance is really small. So I often see people will start a meeting like this. Hey everyone, with their ears and their shoulders up here and their voice really high like this. Hey everyone, good to see you. That does a couple of things. One is it looks less confident. So you look much more like a child. We also look more anxious, more shrieking at space. And two, it triggers for you that you're protecting yourself. Like if you just sit like this, if you try to raise your

shoulders up as far as possible and tilt your head down so your ear meet your shoulder, you will begin to feel small, like emotionally small. And that is because when we're trying to hide, that's what we do. So I like to work from the inside out, but also the outside in. So when I want you to maximize that space, I love a good box breath. I also think it's incredibly important to speak on the out breath. So if you're doing box breathing, amazing. Start with that and then carry that into your first line. The biggest mistake that people make on their first line

is they start up here. So they take in a deep breath and they speak on the top of their breath. They go, hey, it's so good to see you all the way up here. And they sound really anxious. What I want you to do instead is speak on the out-breath. If you speak on the out-breath, it actually forces your vocal cords to relax and it makes you sound more confident. Researchers have found we decide how confident someone is in the first 500 milliseconds of hearing them speak. So listen to the difference. Here's how most people say hello at the top of their breath. Hello. I want you to say it on the

out-breath. Here's the difference. Hello. Those sound totally different, but it feels different. When I speak on the top of my breath, I feel like I'm anxious. I'm holding it in. I'm holding it together. If I speak on the out breath, it literally makes me feel like I'm releasing my tension. I'm speaking in my maximum residence point and I sound more confident. This is such a game changer. And also, I'm just going to ground this in another example, which I've heard before. When I was 14, I used to teach dance and so I was in charge of a lot of young girls around like five to seven and then like eight to ten and my mum was

a teacher and she told me she was like if you want to command a room you don't say come here like really high pitch you're like come here and lower the tone of your voice. And immediately, and I'm sure there's lots of mums listening to this, like, oh, yeah, like I have to lower my voice if I really want. I don't even have to shout. I just lower my voice and the kids, like, they just jump in line. So I think there's just like a few, I'm seeing this in a few day-to-day examples that people maybe already know,

but now seeing it applying to them with how they come across to their confidence is really powerful. Okay. So that's a great example is authoritative and confident is what people like to listen to. So sometimes I think we want to be people pleasing or appeasing. We want people to like us. And so we think that by speaking up here or using uptalk, is that okay? Is everyone here? Can we get started in a few? So uptalk is when we go up at the end of our sentences. What we're doing is we're actually giving away our power. We're actually signaling low confidence. And remember, people don't like to be around low confident people. We want to be around confident people. We want to catch it. And so you being more commanding or authoritative is not just helpful for you. It's also helpful for others. We like

to listen to people who know what they're talking about. So one of the experiments we did in our lab, I love lie detection research. I've always been fascinated with, are there specific cues around deception? And we did an experiment. We asked hundreds of participants to submit videos of themselves lying. Specifically, we had them play two truths and a lie. You ever played that game before, right? So you share two truths and a lie about yourself. It's a great game. What we wanted to do is we wanted to see were there differences on the lies. If we coded the statements, could we guess which were the lies and were there physical or vocal or verbal differences. One of the biggest ones

was that people use their higher range when lying and or used uptalk. In other words, they asked their lie. So it sounded like this. I'll play it with you so you can hear kind of the difference. So here are two true statements and one lie. Listen to see if you can hear the question inflection. I'm from Los Angeles. I love dogs. I'm a vegetarian. You're not a vegetarian. I'm not a vegetarian. So what we found was liars, they instinctively know they're not telling the truth. And so they're basically asking, do you believe me? The problem is, is I've noticed in recent years, especially on video, especially in our first few lines, we want to be nice. And so we use uptalk on our first few lines or in our voicemails. And we say, good morning. My name is Vanessa.

I'm so happy to be here. That is basically not only saying to people, I'm not confident in myself, you shouldn't be confident in me either, but it also instinctively triggers our worry that, are you lying to us? They found that when we hear, when they do brain scans of people listening to an accidental question inflection, where they listen changes. We go from just listening to scrutinizing. And that's because instinctively as humans, we don't want someone to question the statement. We want them to tell us things. This is so important in sales or sharing your worth, sharing your number. If you're asking for a raise or you're raising your rates and you ask your number, you're begging someone to doubt your number. You're begging them to negotiate with you. So if you say, and this is what I hear all the

time, whenever I do, I listen on sales calls, you know, I love to work with you. I think that our project would be a perfect fit. And the cost of our service is $10,000. When you ask your price, you're saying, I don't really believe this number. You shouldn't either. Let's take a quick pause to talk about my new favorite all-in-one platform, Kajabi. You know I've been singing their praises lately because they have helped our business run so much smoother and with way less complexity, which I love. Not to mention our team couldn't be happier because now everything is in one place, so it makes collecting data, creating pages, collecting payment, all the things so much simpler. One of our mottos at Boss Babe is

simplify to amplify and Kajabi has really helped us do that this year. So of course I needed to share it here with you. It's the perfect time of year to do a bit of spring cleaning in your business, you know, get rid of the complexity and instead really focus on getting organized and making things as smooth as possible i definitely recommend kajabi to all of my clients and students so if you're listening and haven't checked out kajabi yet now is the perfect time to do so because they are offering boss babe listeners a 30-day free trial go to kajabi.com slash boss babe to claim your 30-day free trial that's kajabi.com slash boss babe this is going to be really eye opening for a lot of people listening including me wait including me now i need to watch how i'm

speaking i know i do inflect a lot like i actually do do do that. But you know what though? I love listening. Your inflection is for emphasis. Emphasis is great. Like I don't want anyone to be robotic. So listen to the difference, right? You'll, you do great inflection where you'll add emotional emphasis. And by the way, that is fantastic. Confident people use a lot of emotional emphasis. They'll say, I really believe in this. That's not an upward talk. That's I really believe in this. Yeah, that's great. Versus here's uptalk. So I really believe in this good versus I really believe in this. I'm going to listen to this podcast over and over again, because that is true. Let's stay here for a second longer, because I think the lying thing or not, let's say lying might sound a little bit harsh, but maybe not telling the truth in those aspects.

I want to go into that a little bit more because those inflections are saying signs of lack of confidence. And then also people will have a lot of mannerisms and body tones or body language when they're not necessarily telling the truth. And obviously a lot of people listening are interviewing or trying to find out if someone's going to be the right hire for them to join their team or maybe within partners, like whoever it is. So what are, what are cues that we can learn when we're like, Oh, is someone lying here? Okay. So lie detection research is really, it's funny just on a kind of interesting personal note. You know, when I was doing, I've been coding cues for about 17 years. So this research has for cues for the book, I started 17 years ago by accident. I was watching an interview on Larry King live and it was with Lance Armstrong. And in 2005, Lance Armstrong

went on Larry King live and said he had never doped. Now, spoiler alert, we know that Lance Armstrong was doping, but he went on Larry King Live. And I remember in 2005, this is the peak of my awkwardness and social misinterpretation. I remember watching the interview and going, something isn't right. Something isn't right. And he was saying, I've never doped. I would never dope. And I noticed right after And he was saying, I've never doped. I would never dope. And I noticed right after he lied, he said, I never doped. He did what's called a lip purse. So he pressed his lips together into a firm line. I went, what was that? So I began to look into the research and it turns out that lip pursing is a universal withholding cue. We liars often do it

before or after they're about to lie. Also people who are trying to keep something in or not share, not spill the beans will hold their mouth together as if to say, quiet, keep it together. Don't say too much. And so I thought, well, that was easy. Now I'll never unsee that.

Now I see lip-purses all over the place. It doesn't always mean someone's lying, but it is an interesting cue that someone's trying to speak less. It's a good time to say, are we all good? Does that make sense? Do you have any questions? Anything else there? It's a great just red flag of there might be something else here. So that was the very first cue that I put in this folder that little did I know would end up being a book many years later. That was the first of 96 cues. I think what's really important to know is there's not one cue that says someone's lying. We've never found Pinocchio's nose, right? We've never found the one cue. However, of the 96 cues,

there's about 14 cues in the books that are red flags of something else is going on here. So lip purse is one that I always want you to watch out for. If you see someone press their lips into a hard, firm line, that's a moment for you to either ask more questions, pause and think, do more research, give them permission to keep talking. Another one that we noticed was an accidental uptalk, right? So someone accidentally asking, but not saying. And that's also when you can say, that makes sense. Everything okay here? Anything else I should know? Another really good one to watch out for is when someone does a contempt micro-expression. So contempt micro-expression is a one-sided mouth raise. It kind of looks like a smirk. So it's when someone lifts up one side of their mouth. This is a sign of scorn or pessimism,

contempt. It does not necessarily mean someone's lying, but it means that you've just said something or they just heard something or thought something that made them feel better than, that made them feel scornful. Again, if you see that, that's your red flag to say, whoa, whoa, whoa, what's going on here? What was just said? How can I clear things up? If I see this, when I'm in a pitch, if I'm presenting or pitching to a client and I see contempt, I usually will stop and say, can I take any questions? Can I clear anything up here? It is amazing how your person will say, you know, I did actually have a quick question. When you address the contempt, it goes away. If you don't address the red flag, it sits in it, festers.

It eats away your credibility. I feel like no one can get anything past you, Vanessa. This really is a superpower. I'm like, wait, your partner just, you're just like, I know you're lying. I saw that lit purse. He does it to me too. That's the best part. So my husband and I, we've been together for 15 years. So thank goodness he's been with me for most of the research. So we'll call each other out. By the way, that's like my favorite. I force my friends to learn all 96 cues so that we can at least call each other out. Right. So we can at least be like, oh girl, what was that contempt? What are you doing? Right. So my, I have a mastermind of female entrepreneurs in austin i love them i love them they know all these cues and if if we lie to ourselves we call out right like sometimes you

show these deception cues when you are lying to yourself right i was just talking to my friend she's an amazing amazing boss babe a great great entrepreneur and she was like oh yeah i think i can get that project done i totally think i can can do it. And she did a little contempt. I was like, dude, you feel so worried about that project. What are you doing signing up for that? You are doing too much. Like take a chill pill. She's like, yeah, I'm totally dreading it. You know? So I think the more we name it, the more we're able to talk about it. Yeah. And I want to make sure everyone knows where they can read about these 96 cues towards the end, because your book is insane. But I want to come back to, we spoke earlier about confidence. And for me, there's two sides of like that confidence, because you were saying

attracts people in, I think that's really powerful. But the other thing that I noticed that a lot of people struggle with and I see this with some of my friends is they're like really amazing beautiful people and when you get to know them they're very warm and they are charismatic but when you first meet them and when I first met them I was like oh my god God, are they bitches or what? They didn't make me feel like at home. And a lot of people are like, oh, that's just my personality. Like I'm shy. I don't come across, some people are aware of this. They don't come across very well when you're first meeting them. So what else, how can people come across more charismatic? I think is what I'm trying to

ask. I love it. Okay. So first I just want to talk about a myth, a trap that smart people make. The biggest mistake that smart people make when it comes to cues. And by the way, the smarter you are, the more you're going to be in this trap. And this is why I think so many really smart, powerful women come across as cold or intimidating, but actually they're like the warmest, most lovely people. The reason is because smart people often think I'm smart. My ideas are good. I don't need to cue. My ideas will speak for themselves. And so what happens is they show up in interactions or they know that they're successful and they under signal. They under cue. The problem is we do not send enough cues, muting is a cue in itself. So women and men who

under signal, who go stoic or don't express enough or don't send enough purposeful cues, we can't quite read them. We feel there's a distance, a gap. We feel they're cold. We're like, I don't know about, I don't know about her. I can't quite get her. The reason is because as humans, we need cues. So my push is that the smarter you are, the more likely it is you're going to fall into this trap. And actually under cueing is the fastest way to get people to doubt you. It is the hardest way to get out of building genuine

and authentic rapport. So if we don't under signal, what should we signal, right? Like, what should we do if we're like, okay, have you, hopefully I've convinced you, like Vanessa, you convinced me, what cues should I send? So what research has found is that highly charismatic people rank off the charts in two specific traits, but highly charismatic people have the perfect blend of warmth and competence. And the reason why this is important is because charismatic people have to have an equal blend of both.

So they're highly warm, likable, friendly, collaborative, open, but at the very same time, competent, capable, powerful, impressive, efficient. We love to be around people who we can both like and respect. The problem is that most of us have an imbalance. We're a little higher in warmth or a little higher in competence. So if you're a little higher in warmth, people see you as friendly and likable. If you're high in warmth, people love to tell you their life story. People just constantly are opening up to you. And that is

because highly warm people are signaling, they're sending cues of warmth all the time. The problem is, is if you have warmth cues without enough competence cues, people do not take you seriously. They interrupt you. They don't believe your ideas. They don't give you credit. They underestimate you. They undervalue you. They dismiss you. And that is because warmth without competence, people don't feel like they can rely on you. They like you, but they don't think you're serious. On the other side, you also have people who are super high in competence, very successful, very impressive, memorable, capable, but those folks, they're highly competent. They're sending

out lots of competent signals without warmth. People see them as cold, intimidating, hard to talk to, or worse, not a team player, not collaborative, not kind, smart, but not kind, impressive, but not compassionate, a leader, but not a team player. And so for highly competent folks, they really struggle to get buy-in. They really struggle to get rapport. And so this balance is so critical because it means we can be both liked as well as respected. That was a very long answer to your question. But a really, really good answer. So I want to go, and even like asking for me, I definitely walk that balance at times differently I do think I'm pretty warm and I have a lot of people who will open up to me and I'm confident but I

sometimes struggle to like I don't want to seem like over arrogant or cocky or like you know and I feel like this is a big thing that happens, particularly with UK people, because you get brought up with like, don't stand out too much, like don't do too well or et cetera. And so it's like that playing down of it at times. So how do you strike the balance? Is that, is the balance, in the form of a conversation that we're having, I'm wondering if the balance is like,

that those tones that you start things off on. So meetings versus I'm like, hi everyone. I would be like, hi everyone. I would be like, hi everyone. This is, you know, and going in that way. If we want to get really specific about it, it can be mathematical in the sense of there are warmth cues and there's competence cues. If you're sending literally a warmth cue matching with a competence cue, we see the balance. So for example, I think that people can think that someone's arrogant or full of themselves are not specific. Actually, they're too high in competence. People who have too much competence without warmth, they name drop, they show off. So actually the key is that you're

balancing both. So I'll give you a really good example. In the first few seconds of an interaction, I want you to send the perfect blend of warmth and competence. You can do this non-verbally, you can do it vocally, but the easiest way is actually verbally. And what I mean by this is, and we did this in emails, we had people come into our lab and we had them take a little charisma diagnostic. It's a really quick test. You can take it for free. It's up on my website where it's just people can, you can see their warmth and competence. So we have people come into our lab. We gave them a little charisma diagnostic. We found it exactly where they were in warmth and competence

to see if they were higher in warmth, higher in competence, or the perfect balance. The last option is they don't have enough of either. So if you don't have enough of either warmth and competence, you're in the danger zone, right? Which means you're not signaling enough.

So we place them on the charisma scale and then we ask them to see their email sent folder. You should see those faces when you ask them to open up their email sent folder. They're like, ah. So we ask them to see their email sent folder. You should see those faces when you ask them to open up their email sent folder. They're like, ah. So we asked them to open up their phone and we opened up their last five emails and we counted the number of warm words they used and the number of competent words they used. What we found is we could almost exactly predict where they fell in the warmth and confidence scale based on the kinds of words they used. So even in your emails, your LinkedIn profiles, your websites, your content,

the first few words you say, you want to have a perfect balance of warm and competent words. So warm words are words like happy, best, both, collaborate. Words like emojis exclamation points those are warm if you have too many of those too many exclamation points too many emojis people see you as too friendly right like too over the top competent are words that make us want to get things done words like achieve succeed win power through, brainstorm, get ready, efficient. Numbers, charts, prices, timelines, that's highly competent. So the best openers, the best emails have a perfect balance. So saying, happy Monday team. So great to see all of you. Today we have a lot of things I want to get through, but first I want to make sure, how's everyone doing? Anything good this week? Now that sounds pretty casual, but what I did there is I mixed a couple of warm words,

a couple of competent words, and our brain loves that. What our brain hates is autopilot and hates even more the boring starts where everyone, where you, you're lacking that vocal confidence. So what I hear oftentimes people will do is something like this. Hey everyone. Today we're going to get started in a few. Wait for everyone to log in and then we'll tackle today's agenda. Oh, like those are just painful. So it's not just using body language cues, also even matching your verbal cues to your charisma goals. I made so many notes right now. Okay. So I have, I hear what you're saying in the emails. Yes. Yes. Quick question regarding emails. Is there like a best way to sign off emails? I'm always like,

do I write best regards, best wishes, gratitude? Like how do I sign this off? Okay. You want to use the word that you want to leave them feeling. So this could change based on the person. So like, if you want them to feel gratitude and also recognize your gratitude, ingratitude is a great way to sign off. If you want to leave on a warm note, like you had, like, for example, if I have a very highly competent email with a client, like let's say that I'm emailing back and forth with a client and we have budget, I have multiple phases, I have details. I have logistics. It's super competent. I try to start and end on warmth. So instead of dear clients, I might say, uh, good morning client. I hope you had a wonderful

weekend. Wanted to run a few logistics by you. Competent portion of email. And then I'm going to end on warmth to try to balance it out. So I'll end with warmly, best, sending a hug. So at least I'm hitting that balance of, hey, I know that was super competent, but I so appreciate you. I so appreciate you getting those details with me. So this is about hitting that balance. And we love that balance. As humans, we want to have, ah, wow, she can get it done. She can like hit those points in an email, but also like, we're good. We still have connection. So let's, I feel like there's going to be two types of people. There's going to be those who are very naturally warm and those who are more leaning towards competence in their manner.

How do they double check themselves? Is there a routine that you go through where you're like, before I go into a meeting, I'm that you go through where you're like, before I go into a meeting, I'm going to take a breath and be like, how do I want to come across on this? Or before I sign off an email, I'm going to read through it again and go warm, warm, competent, competent. How do people decide or check themselves to make sure they are getting that balance correct? Okay. I love it. So when I am in my pre-prep routine, I'm putting on makeup, I'm driving to the meeting, I'm walking to the meeting, I'm waiting for my Zoom call to start. All I'm thinking is, what is my charisma goal? Okay, today is a warm day, or today I want to be the perfect balance of both, or today is a constant day. I want to get stuff done. So my pre-prep is just getting

in a social intention. I think that social intentions are one of the best ways to take control of your interactions. I think so often we hop on a video call, we go on a date or we go into a presentation and we're very focused on the idea, the agenda, but we don't think about what is the social goal here? What do I want someone to feel during this interaction? What do I want them to feel after the interaction? So one is having that social intention very, very clearly in your mind. And it only takes a few seconds, right? Like I can do this as I'm walking from one video call to the other, whenever I fill up my water, I'm always doing social intentions. And that's like a very weird thing, but like, it's a, it's a 10 second thing that I have to do multiple times a day. And whenever I'm doing it,

I'm thinking, okay, what's my social intention for this meeting? The second thing to think about is I do believe that email audits work. So looking back into your last five important emails. So look back on your email inbox. What are the last five important emails you sent? Not your casual ones. Casual ones are less important. I mean, you know, to your boss, your clients, your partner, to your best friend, an email that you spent some time thinking about, count the number of warm versus competent cues. There should be a perfect balance. There's actually a third type of person, by the way, you mentioned to people who are highly warm, highly competent.

The last, the third type of person is no cues at all. Very, very sterile, right? Hey, I'll see you at the meeting next week. I'll send over the proposal for you. We'll get started next month. That email has no warm or competent words at all. That's sterile. That's when you're going to get people who reply slowly. Okay. Got it. So sterile, competence, warmth, the three types. And then obviously you want to stay away from sterile. I'm guessing that's not desirable at all, but getting the balance between competence and what? Yes, yes, exactly. So can I make one

more note? A little quick, a little like a quick hack, calendar invites. So we also are constantly queuing people with our calendar invites, especially now more than ever. Every single time I open my calendar multiple times a day, right? Like I'm always looking, what's my next call? What's my next meeting? Every single time someone opens their calendar, you are queuing them how to interact with you. So if you call your call, call, if you call your meeting, meeting, if you call it pitch, you are literally queuing them for boring. Like they only see, oh, let's give us another call, another video. I want you to think about what could you put in the title of your calendar invites that when it pops up into their inbox, when they open up their calendar, they're just cued a little bit. So very simply, you know, collaborative meeting,

strategy session, goal time, productivity session, 2022 wins. Even those titles give you social intentions. That's a way for you to be more clear with what you want. But also every time they open their calendar, they're being cued with that sense. And this is incredibly important. One research study, I love this study, but we'll give you an example of how important these titles are. They found that the words we use change how we think and how we behave. That reading a word like collaborate or collaborative session literally makes you more likely to be collaborative. So what they did in this study is they had people come into their lab and they split them up into two different groups. The first group was asked to play a prisoner's dilemma game. Prisoner's dilemma game is like a sharing profits

game. And the researcher brought everyone into the room and said, today, we're going to play the community game. And then went on to explain the rules. They played the game. The second group, same researcher, same game, same tables, same rules. They had one word change. They said, today, we're going to play the Wall Street game. They wanted to know if just that one title switch would change how people played. They found that people who played the Wall Street game shared one third of their profits. People who played the community game shared two thirds of their profits. In other words, one small switch from competence, Wall Street, to warmth, made people be more warm. So even when you title things, your headlines, your captions, those are changing people's behavior.

I'm just sat here right now thinking about so many things that I can change. So even just around, we have a membership called The Society, which is for female entrepreneurs we have calls every single week the first one's a goal setting call but the second one is a boss babe q a call and the boss babe q a call was around like you know natalie and i answering the questions but now i'm like well boss babe q a doesn't really like it's not supportive to them that's so now i'm like oh it's it's really more like a you know business Q&A call where we're answering their questions. They're going to be so much more likely to come forward with their questions if we position

it for them. Or you could call it your support session, you know, boss babe support session, feedback session. We could even say we're here for you session. We love you session. We support you session. That is going to not only make people feel better when they see it, but get more excited about it. It's really interesting because I think

it's great as entrepreneurs and ambitious women, we focus on the big things at times. We're like, right, you know, we all hear about looking at to-do lists, like let's focus on the key needle movers. And sometimes there's ways in which we can amplify what we are actually doing and really leaning into that so i think that's like really really powerful that's we take that on more like okay how we can we finesse and there's so much in these like little finesses and that's why not even i don't know if that a word, but there's so much of these little things that I'm like, oh, we could do and we could tweak and we can get higher opt-in rates, or we can do better with getting the right intentions for these calls. Small is good, right? Like the subtitle of the book is small signals, incredible impact because

we're busy. And also remember, I do this work for very busy smart people which their ideas are good their business are solid if i can give like little tips that have huge impact it's kind of like a golf game right like that's the metaphor i always think of is you know you can practice over and over again but small tweaks and how you grip small tweaks in your stance can have massive impact on where the ball goes can have massive impact on your game it's the same thing for entrepreneurs the same thing people in business is we already are good golfers. The question is, what are the tweaks we can make, the small lifts we can make in our stance and our hands to just get the ball closer to where we want it to be? I just want to turn our attention to social media

for a second, because you've said a couple of things in this. And I know a lot of our audience are trying to grow their brands or their personal brands or their business brands on social media and gain traction there. And you were talking about thumbnails, which again, for YouTube specifically, you've seen a difference with whether you had the hands in there on sales pages, et cetera. I'm curious if there's a way on social media between getting that balance right between competence and warmth and images that work best because even I've seen like I know that it's really interesting if I have a group of people on an image so if I post on my timeline and there's a group like me and three other people it never performs as well as if I have like an upfront like selfie or you know even

then with my eye contact or not eye contact I'm noticing. And I'm just wondering what are other pieces or do you think as you should be always aiming for a balance in your social feed around what your body posture is saying? Okay. So I love it. So I think about this a lot as content creators, you can get tapped out. This is kind of a way to refresh and reset, I think, and think about your content differently. So I strive for a balance. I think that what really hits people, and we found this certainly with our social channels, is if I can have a balance, even in my profile, even in my grid of warm versus competent, I'm hitting people in surprising ways. So I'll give you an example. On my Instagram profile, if you

look at it, I have a perfect balance of warmth and competence. I have like best-selling author, competence, mom, warmth, tips for communication, competence, YouTuber with lightning, warm, fun hacks, warm, hit me up on social, competent. I have found, and I've tried lots of variations that when I get more follows, it's hard to obviously figure out exactly where those are coming from. But I think that that's also signaling I'm a real person, but I also get stuff done. I'm going to offer vulnerability and real tips, but I'm also going to help you with stuff. So that balance, I think appeals to more people. I found a lot more engagement in clicks. We also do the same thing with our posts. So if you think about warmth and confidence, I'll actually, I won't use myself as an example. I'll use Casper mattresses.

So have you ever seen the Casper mattress company? You ever seen them before? I have just bought my first Casper mattress. I will say. What? Okay. That's so crazy. Okay. By the way, they're not sponsored. Never talk to Casper. They're not a sponsor. I'm sharing this because I think, I don't know if you found this, but Casper was one of those companies that just exploded. They came on the market and they just dominated. Everyone I know is buying them. And I think that what they did, and I did a deep dive analysis of their brand and their marketing, they have the perfect balance of warmth and competence on their website and their social. Even their tagline, obsessively engineered, competent,

with outrageous comfort, warmth. So even their tagline is the perfect balance of warmth and competence. So if you look at one of their landing pages, for example, and their social media, they'll have a funny quote from Vogue, highly warm. Your new office is the bed, funny, warm. Right next to a picture of their employees in lab coats in the Casper Engineering Lab, competent. Then they have a child jumping on their bed with their mom and dad, warm. Right next to gold star reviews

from Consumer Reports, competent. So I think that what they've done is they are hitting, you can trust us and you can rely on us. You can like us and you can admire us. And so in the really good social accounts, you'll see that they have a balance, not exactly equal, but warm memes, gifts, stories, vulnerability, shares, personal life. That's one bucket. And they also have competence, help, powerful quotes, stats, research, inspiring stories, case studies, social proof. We like to have that balance. And so that's another way to think about your grid or think about the content you're putting out there is you want to signal you can trust me and you can rely on me both. And I think that's really leaning into where we're at with what we want for our brands these days,

because we want authenticity. And I know we're utilizing it as warmth, but I'm kind of seeing that like vulnerability, authenticity all adds up to that warm feeling. And I think what you're talking about with Casper is like what they did because they actually made like how many mattress brands can you even like sealy maybe i can name before that and i don't know any of like sealy didn't even have a personality like whereas casper what they've done is not only like obviously with that product change the game because it comes in a box if any for you I really need to be calling Casper like you guys should sponsor this podcast right now what was really interesting around them was that they had this personality to match a really great product and so whenever anyone is listening to this I think that's the thing that we can go away

and think is like what is the personality of your brand that's always why Boss Babe did really well because it had this competence in what we taught but this our personality and our warmth I think came from like the sassiness that people could relate to and also that vulnerability in the sense of like sharing the stuff that no one else dared share. Like literally our post today is like, how burnt out are you? And some pictures of toast. Cause let's be honest, we all hit burnout sometimes, right?

Burnout, burnout, yes. Exactly. And when we pretend these things don't exist, when we always want to be on the highlight reel and showcase that, it's unachievable, it's unattainable. And like you say, it's so far into competence that everyone gets tired trying to feel competent all the time.

They want to feel like, oh, I can be myself. Because even those competent people who are like really, really high demonstrating competent, they're not competent all the time. Everyone has this kind of vulnerability and this insecurity about them. It's just who's open to sharing all sides of their personality, I guess. And I think that you said it exactly right. Vulnerability is an aspect of warmth. You don't have to be vulnerable to be warm, but it is one way that you can be warm. And that is the problem is you have brands who are trying

to hit you over the top of competence where everything looks perfect. Everything's a highly real and you think, ugh, I don't like it. Not my person. I don't believe it. And this is directly from the research. So I know that people who are listening to this are very smart. And what happens is from the research competence without warmth leaves people feeling suspicious. There are a lot of brands out there that they try to hit you with lots of perfection, lots of competence, fancy numbers, fancy things. Literally when we have too many competence cues without enough warmth, we don't believe the confidence. It leaves us feeling suspicious. And so if you want people to believe in you and believe in your product,

you actually have to share the warmth because that is the lubricant to your competence. That's really, really powerful message for people to end on as well. Just making sure you have this balance. And we spoke about earlier, these 96 cues, and I would really love for you to share where people can learn about these because I know they're in your book. So you said that the website, all the things, because honestly, Vanessa, I hands down think this is my favorite podcast of the year because you have hit the balance balance right of competence and warmth I am about this podcast I'm actually going to listen to it again because I made a ton of notes I'm going to send it to all of my team so you better watch out

team because our sales pages are going to be back our society calls are getting renamed yes yes yes okay well first of all I'm so honored. It just makes my week. I also want to say before I talk about where to find stuff is if you're an introvert or recovering awkward person, I like cues as a way to be heard without being loud. I'm an ambivert. I'm not an extrovert. And so I think that a lot of the time introverts are given this terrible advice to just pretend to be outgoing or fake being an extrovert, I know you do not have to fake being outgoing or fake being a bubbly extrovert to be successful. All you need to be successful is having a balance of warmth and competence. And that does not mean

speaking more or being louder. I just want to share that because if that's you, I'm so there for you. Like I'm so, so with you. So everything is in my book cues. Also my first book captivate. I also read the audible. If you like my vocal power, I have fun with that. I have tons of breakdowns on my YouTube channel of different celebrity cues, Britney Spears, the rock, uh, Justin Bieber, nothing like breaking down body language cues. And then of course my website is science of people.com. And by the way, if you want to take that charisma quiz, it's absolutely free. You. And by the way, if you want to take that charisma quiz, it's absolutely free.

You can take it as many times as you want. It's scienceofpeople.com slash charisma. Just take it. You'll do a little diagnostic based on the research. It will tell you where you are in warmth and competence. A little bonus is if you want to self-check your charisma, send it to your best friend, a colleague, a partner, and have them take it as you and have them screenshot their results because that's how other people see you.

And that is like the most mind blowing thing to do. That is really powerful. Actually, I never thought about that because even just listening to this and having this conversation today, I was like, Oh, I can see where some people in my life are really, really high on competence and lower on warmth and vice versa. I'm like, actually that person's really competent, but they don't display it as well as like they could in many ways.

So I think that you say getting maybe a colleague to do it or a partner as well, like people in different settings is really powerful. And we'll put all the links in the show notes too but I also just you referenced in that Britney Spears one I saw that on your social media actually about her widening of eyes so go check out Vanessa's social media as well as her YouTube because there's some pretty cool stuff on there I was like damn and like you're saying just reading even about the Lance Armstrong stuff like that in itself is really enlightening I feel like I'm gonna be

reading cues so that I can study not only people I work with I'll be like oh what's happening on the news that reporter is lying there's something oh man it's such a superpower it's so much fun I'll be improving like all my investments all of the things yes oh thank you so much for having me this is such a pleasure this was amazing and I just want to say as well like there was so many golden nuggets in this podcast so if you're listening and you loved it and enjoyed it please share this because that goes a long way for Vanessa and I as well um and I think it really helps women get the information that they need when they're building their businesses or building their social media or

really they just want to find those pieces of confidence um and i really related as well vanessa to what you're saying i'm an ambivert too so i'm 56 extrovert so for me as well like i really relate to not being like honoring what feels good because ultimately if you don't feel good in those situations that i didn't think there's a fake it till you make it i think there's like a learning okay what suits me and what feels around and you can still be intentional that like intentional is very different to faking um and so when people learn these cues like oh what cues work for me best is really really powerful then to display that warmth that maybe they struggle getting out straight away. So thank you. Thank you for all the wisdom. I really appreciate it.

My pleasure. I think that like, if we can just be more charismatic, our warmest and most competent self, we inspire warmth and competence in everyone we meet. So it's also a great gift to the world too. I love that. That's so true. Well, thank you so much for all the links below. And I'm just going to say out right now, because I feel like this needs to happen, but I think we need to get you back on to talk about captivate too and human behavior. So let's make that happen because I think this is such an enlightening podcast. So thank you so much. Oh my gosh. Anytime. I love y'all. Thank you. If you enjoyed this episode, we would love it if you subscribed and left us a review.

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