the bossbabe podcast - 340. My Biggest Business Regret, A Million Dollar Mistake + The Truth About Financial Freedom No-One is Talking About

Episode Date: December 5, 2023

Get ready for never-been-heard-before stories as I open up and share some of the most mouth-dropping moments in Bossbabe history.  HIGHLIGHTS The crazy story I have never shared (until now) about t...he time a friend copied my brand and business model How burnout led me to one of my biggest regrets in business Doubling your business does NOT necessarily mean making more money The fun and surreal moment when Bossbabe partnered with Elle Magazine. What my original goal was when I first launched the membership  Why I decided to invest in a home in the UK (+ what a rich life or life of freedom looks like for me) LINKS Join The Société: The Place to Build A Freedom-Based Business FOLLOW bossbabe: @bossbabe.inc Natalie Ellis: @iamnatalie Lindsay Roselle: @lindsayroselle

Transcript
Discussion (0)
Starting point is 00:00:00 If you believe that the only mark of success is revenue growth, like getting on that momentum train and believing all the hype around scale, scale, scale, scale. For some of us, that's just not like what the business really is for us or what we set out to create. But we've gotten into this mindset of I'm only successful if I continue to grow every year. Growth at all costs creates creates burnout. Lindsay, welcome back to the podcast. Thank you. Excited. This is so funny. We are huddled up in Steve. I mean, huddled. We're in Stephen's office because the sound is a little bit better. And we were like, we're trying to be our own tech guys. So hopefully this sounds good. I'm pretty proud of us actually to have like dug through the technology closet and set up our whole setup by ourselves I'm laughing
Starting point is 00:00:50 because Lindsay has like this microphone the stand is this white it's a lot yeah it's not that's why we're not on video so if you're someone who likes to watch us on video sorry not happening on this episode but we wanted to have this conversation while I'm here in Austin. So here we are. Yeah. So we're Lindsay's in Austin because we're doing a VIP day together, which is going to be amazing. We have a client flying in. We are fully booked up VIP days now until May next year. We don't do a lot of them, but we've been having so much fun doing them right now. It's also Black Friday, Cyber Monday weekend for us. So we're just having fun and chilling. Yeah. Well, and last night, so the reason we wanted to record is because we were talking last night, just hanging out, talking about just crazy shit. There's stories that have happened in business that you wouldn't necessarily believe unless you or know about, unless you were like in the inner circle and like, we should just tell people these stories because if it's happened to us it's probably happened to other people and
Starting point is 00:01:49 I think there's a lesson in each one of these that we can talk about that's like hey don't do this or watch out for this or this is something that happens to a lot of people so if this has happened to you or you have felt this way you you're not crazy. You're not like different than anybody else. So I came up with six of these prompts for you, Natalie, that I want you to tell your stories. And then I probably have like anecdotes or little things I can add about my experience, but I think you've been on a different scale. So are you ready to get started? Yes, I'm ready. I'm like nervous because I know I'm just going to be honest about the stories, but I mean, this could go anywhere. I'm nervous because I know I'm just going to be honest about the stories. But I mean, this could go anywhere.
Starting point is 00:02:26 I'm nervous to hear what your prompts are going to be. Okay. Well, the first one is like after what we were talking about last night, just like what's one crazy thing that people wouldn't believe or that like you didn't even believe when it was happening in a bad way, like crazy in a bad way experience you've had in building Boss Babe or in business in general, where you were like, is this real? Is this really happening? Okay. This came up in conversation last night.
Starting point is 00:02:48 It's really funny because I haven't spoken about this ever publicly. And I also haven't really told many people about it. I think part of me just was in shock for this long. But the reason that this even came up in my consciousness to tell you about was the person involved texted me on November 8th asking to reconnect. So, okay, I'm going to tell you guys this story. Now, this story is probably so unbelievable that I'm going to give you as much context leading into it as possible because you're probably listening thinking that this is not a real story. I think it's that crazy. Okay, so in LA, we ended up creating a Boss Babe office. So full context at this time, me and Danielle were partners. Danielle was currently working full-time in her chiropractic
Starting point is 00:03:32 business. So she was working part-time at Boss Babe and she was fully based in the UK working part-time. I was working full-time, fully based in LA and we opened an office in LA and we had a lot of team. We had a pretty big team at that point and a lot of them were all in person in LA and we opened an office in LA and we had a lot of team. We had a pretty big team at that point. And a lot of them are all in person in LA. So we had this office, like this was when we were really, really scaling, like things were growing at this rapid pace. And so it felt important to have everyone together in person. I mean, even thinking about that era is crazy. It's like we still lunches together and like, it's just such a different pre COVID. Yeah. And very different to the way we run the business now. It was, there was so many levels of management and like all the things. So that's the context. So I'd been in LA a couple
Starting point is 00:04:14 of years, like really laying the foundations and setting the foundations for Boss Babe. I was doing a lot of networking and making friends at that time. And I got introduced to this one person. I will not say their name. This one person who was like in all of our similar circles. And I got introduced to this one person, I will not say their name, this one person who was like in all of our similar circles. And I really got along with her. I thought she was lovely. And so we had this friendship and I think we were friends for about two years and not like just like acquaintances, like actual friends, like, you know, be at the same events, would invite each other to things, like would talk in detail about stuff like actual friends. So one day I get a text from this friend and she says, hey, I want to have a meeting with you. Can I come to your office? I'm like,
Starting point is 00:04:52 yeah, sure. Like it felt a little bit formal. I was like, yeah, sure. And we were on good terms, right? So she turns up in my office. She's like dressed all professionally. She's like, hey, we need a meeting room. I need to present something. I'm like, okay, cool. So I'm like thinking she's going to present like some collab or like something she's working on that she needs support with. I'm like, okay, cool. So we go into this meeting room and she pulls up on a meeting screen a full presentation. And so there's my logo, all of my fonts, all of my colors and the name of my membership. And I'm like, oh, is she going to present like a different way we could take this? Is she wanting to work with us? So I'm sitting there
Starting point is 00:05:30 and bearing in mind, I'm on my own because Danielle's in the UK. I'm on my own in the office. It's just me and her. And she starts walking through this membership with a slightly different angle to the one I currently had, but everything else is the same. The branding, the site, the promo, everything's the same. Like it's my product. So she's walking through it all. And this membership has a different angle to the one that I'm currently running. It's the same audience, but a different part of business or lifestyle. I'm not going to get into the specifics. I don't want to give a person away, but different angles, right? And she's presenting it to me and I'm like, okay. So we get to the end of the presentation and she was like, okay, there you have it.
Starting point is 00:06:13 So I'm sitting there and I'm, and I thought, okay, so she must think this is a place I could take the business. Like how kind of her that she's coming in, like showing me a different way. I was like, oh, I really appreciate this right now. I feel really clear on our path. I don't really want to pivot the membership, but I really appreciate your ideas. Like this is amazing. You've gone so above and beyond like friendship. And she was like, oh, I like, I'm not a hundred percent sure that you're clear. So let me just fully lay it out for you. I'm doing this with or without you. And so in this moment, now you can commit to getting on board with this and promoting it to your audience and you can have equity in this or I'm going to go do this anyway. And I was like, I'm confused. Do what? And she said this,
Starting point is 00:06:51 the idea I've just presented to you. And I was like, wait, you just presented to me my membership, my logo, my colors, my fonts, my promo, all of it, but a different, let's, how do I say that angle if I'm teaching funnels she would be teaching what's in like meditation or something yeah like she would be teaching something different but to the same audience yeah let's say that yeah and she's like so if you don't come and do this I'm doing it without you and you know I'm gonna leave you behind so you can get on board or not but you'd be making a mistake if you don't get on board because I'm going to go do this. And I remember my jaw hitting the ground and I was like, I'm so confused. This is my brand. You can't just go and tell me you're going to start running it
Starting point is 00:07:34 without me now. Like that's not how things work. And she was like, I've already set up the Instagram account. I've already set up the website. This is all good to go. You just have to be in or out. I'm going to do it with or without you. And I was like, well, of course I'm out. And then I remember Danielle was actually, you know, at work at the time. So I couldn't bring her right away. I texted her like, you need to call me as soon as you finish work. The most bizarre thing just happened. I called her up. I told her, she was like, what the fuck? Like, it didn't make any sense. She thought that I had heard it wrong. So I was like, let's get on a three-way phone call with this woman just so she can tell. So we got on a three-way phone call and me and Danielle
Starting point is 00:08:10 are texting each other throughout being like, is she having a nervous breakdown? She wasn't. She actually went and did it. It's so crazy because we also didn't sue her or anything at the time, partly because we were so focused in our own lane. We, I just am such a big believer that if you copy someone, you're not going to get ahead. Like that's just not the way to get ahead. And we just stayed focused. So I completely cut her out, my like friend, like so interesting. Cause not all my friends did cut her out, which was so strange. I'm like, I don't get it it but maybe I was seeing missing something but I was like oh our friendship is complete I don't really want anything else to do with you and then
Starting point is 00:08:50 she this was years ago because this must have been 2019 when we had the office now we're in we're close to 2024 and she messaged me on November 8th yeah and I texted her back just yesterday after we had that conversation like let's see if we get a reply we didn't get a reply I'm just shocked. Well, I mean, I'm shocked, but I feel like these kind of stories, like I've heard this stuff before where it fronts as a collaboration, but it's really just like, I'm taking what you've already done and I'm going to put it in my, like, like you said, like I teach funnels, she teaches mindset or email marketing or something that's like related to the same
Starting point is 00:09:24 audience. I'm just going to take exactly what you've already done and just put my educational experience on it and call it something different. It's like, no, you can learn from me and you can be inspired by me, but you can't copy my whole entire product and just put a new spin on it and act like that's okay. And I feel like I've seen that a lot. And I think it freaks people out where they're like, well, is this flattery? Should I be flattered? Or they were in one of my programs. So I guess they paid to learn this from me. So maybe it's okay. And, but really, truly, it's copying. So yeah, talk a little bit more. Because when you told me the
Starting point is 00:09:59 story yesterday, I was like, please tell me you like sent a cease and desist, or you sued her, or you did something you're like, no, because Danielle and I agreed we have so much momentum and we're on such a growth trajectory that something like this, one, like she's not going to steal our audience. Like we know she doesn't have the same ability to do it that we do. So if we just stay focused, but two, like you were so sure in your leadership and mindset to go getting distracted by it and getting into negative energy is actually worse than just kind of like blocking it and moving on. And I think that's the lesson for people when these kinds of things happen to go, wait a second, I could really spin out over
Starting point is 00:10:36 this or I could just be like, nope, boundary, wall up, absolutely not. And I'm going to stay in my lane and I'm going to keep going and trust that like someone copying me, like you just said, it's never going to work the same as the person who originally created it. Yeah. And I feel like a lot of people are surprised to like, I get sent a lot of things from friends of like Instagram pages, websites saying, Hey, they're copying your name. They're copying the title of your program. They're copying your colors. Like I get it constantly. Like there's some pages that exist that is literally just my content copied onto them. And back then, again, I think context is important. So Danielle would handle a lot of legal stuff, but Danielle was not like she was part-time, lower hours. She was running her own business. That was the
Starting point is 00:11:20 agreement that we had. So for me, I was focused on growing this business, growing our audience, growing our revenue. So when Danielle came into the business full time, she took on a lot of legal stuff that she put a lot of time into. I at that time didn't have that time and capacity. And it's also not my zone of genius. Like I'm not great at being in, I would really rather rise above it and go down another path. We have been in some legal situations where that's not necessarily an option, but at the time it was very much like we have limited time with Danielle's. Is she better in this area or does she want to focus on this legal stuff? And it just didn't feel worth it. And I have felt that with a lot
Starting point is 00:11:59 of copycats of the Boss Babe brand. I mean, you and I could probably list out a hundred Boss Babe copycats at this point. And I just, I'm so in my own lane and I'm so focused on where I'm going. And I'm so clear that I don't copy people's shit. I also don't take credit for other people's shit. Like I'm just not in that lane. And so I let them do it. I just, I did let people do it to an extent. Now, like we have a legal team and we have, we're playing a different game now, but back then I just thought I know where I'm going. And you know, that business failed. It closed down two years ago, of course, but. Well, I think like there's two sides to this story too. One is the personal relationship. And I think that's where, if you've experienced something like this, where it's someone that you were friends with, or maybe they were a peer and a mastermind or something. And that's why it's so crazy,
Starting point is 00:12:48 because you're just like, what? We're friends. How would you march in here and threaten me that if I don't work with you, you're going to do it anyway when it's my stuff? That's crazy. And to the point about protecting Boss Babe and ourselves from this, one of the things I now manage is we work with a program, like an agency that actually, with AI, scans the entire internet and looks for our content. So now things like five years later, it's crazy as an aside, we still are very conscious of people copying stuff that is our content, but we have AI do it for us. And they literally send us a report every month that's like, here's 50 websites that have your exact copy on it, or here's your branding showing up in places.
Starting point is 00:13:28 And we can go, like, I do this as part of my job. I go through and review each one and go, okay, these ones are, they don't matter. I don't even tell Natalie those ones. And then there's some that are a little bit more, you know, where it looks like they're trying a little bit harder to front as us. And we do send, you know, this agency works that we work with, we'll go and send them a letter and deal with the entire legal process. And so if you're someone who is listening and dealing with this in your business, there are ways to do this kind of thing without it becoming overwhelming, like Natalie's describing from a timing standpoint. But for most of it, it's something where like what we talked about where you don't want to go down the path of I think it's scarcity. Ultimately, if you go down this path of like, no one can copy me, that's my thing. And you get really spun out on that level of vigilanceing in, like, don't fuck with us because I am doing that. We will come up. Yes. No, but I have always consciously asked my team, like with
Starting point is 00:14:31 Danielle specifically, I would say, Hey, I don't need to know 90% of these things that are happening because I'm out there creating products, marketing, creating content. Like I need to be in a certain frame of mind. And so she would take on a lot of that stuff and like really only bring me in when it was really important legal stuff. And I also say the same thing with CS. Like, you know, you get some crazy emails sometimes and CS knows not to flag those things to me unless it's actually important. Like there's a lot of things that I don't need to know about. And I just try and stay in my own lane. And I'm like, I trust you guys to deal with it. Yeah. Protecting, especially if you're working in a business where there's a visionary, like protecting the visionary is such an important
Starting point is 00:15:13 thing. And maybe we can do an episode on like the visionary and the integrator and the executor and like the traction framework and all of that. But ultimately, if you are the visionary, you have to block for yourself. Like if you're a solopreneur, you're playing all these roles and you really have to be so cognizant of what's worth your time and what is going to distract you from creative work and knowing what that boundary is and sticking to it. So that brings me to my next one. Perfect segue. The next question is what's like the lowest experience you've ever had? The time when you felt the most defeated and heavy or sad in the business like something that's been really hard to deal with actually this came up in a podcast that I did I ended up cutting it out of the podcast I did this podcast interview and I ended
Starting point is 00:15:56 up cutting it out because I was like I don't know if I'm going to talk about this but okay we'll talk about it so I remember a time when I was at my lowest and I made a decision that I truly regret. And even to this day, I'm like, why the did I do it? And I've never even told you about this. So at my lowest, not necessarily at my lowest in terms of being depressed and all those things at my lowest in terms of feeling so exhausted and burned out and unable to keep going. So, you know, there was a point in the business. It felt like it was just like growth, growth, growth, growth at any cost. That was kind of the culture and momentum and like the voices I had and around me. And that's not necessarily
Starting point is 00:16:36 my mindset. I mean, you know that too. I don't like to sacrifice my happiness, my freedom, my peace of mind for anything. That's what really matters to me. And, you know, there was a point in time when I've been running the business that that's not necessarily been the case. And we've talked a lot about why I've now pivoted the business. So going back to setting, again, I think context is really important, setting context for this decision. So I, at the time, was running all of our content, like creating content for social media, like all of them, like front of business stuff, creating a lot of the content for the back of stuff. Like you guys
Starting point is 00:17:14 will know if you've taken the courses, it's me and all the courses, audience growth, like on those numbers, webinars, revenue. Like I really was out there. I've kind of talked about it before, but I just felt like a dancing monkey. And that can be also very, very challenging when you feel like you've got a lot of growth targets put on your back, like to like go, go, go. And you're feeling like, oh God, like I just want some support in this. And I had at that time, I had tried to hire people to come in and take over the audience growth and audience growth would slip. Or I would try and bring someone into support with the revenue and the revenue would slip. And I wasn't at that time sure of how to bring someone in and really delegate and train them
Starting point is 00:17:56 up. I was, you know, I'd only been a few years into my time at Boss Babe. Like I just hadn't learned that. I think that's a skill that is a big reason I've put a lot of the templates and stuff in the society because I'm like, oh God, I had to learn this in a really, really hard way. So yeah, I felt like I was just a bit of a dancing monkey. I was so stretched and stressed. And I just thought I want some team members in the company who can be responsible for content creation, for audience growth, for supporting with
Starting point is 00:18:26 revenue. And generally those kinds of people, from my experience, are quite entrepreneurial themselves. Maybe they've run their own businesses in the past, they're quite entrepreneurial. So I was at that point and we had been working with some people and they had shown that they had those kind of skills. And this is so funny to say out loud. I was so exhausted. I struck a deal with them that they could take 30% of top line revenue. Oh my God. And that deal went on for quite a long time.
Starting point is 00:18:59 Okay. I have never heard anyone rave about pillowcases as much as Natalie did when I stayed with her this past weekend in Austin. She had me sleep on Blissy's award-winning 100% mulberry silk pillowcases. And now I get the hype around our podcast sponsor today, Blissy. The holidays are just around the corner. And if you're looking for the best gift you can get, look no further than a Blissy silk pillowcase. Side note, I already texted my husband the link. I definitely want them on our bed now after experiencing them at Natalie's house.
Starting point is 00:19:27 Silk is honestly the most luxurious gift to give your friends or family. Plus it comes in gift ready packaging. Blissy silk pillowcases are temperature regulating, prevent hair breakage, and they keep your skincare products and natural moisture on your skin because silk does not absorb the moisture off your face.
Starting point is 00:19:43 You can say goodbye to wrinkles, dry, flaky, and red skin in the morning and wake up with refreshed skin and healthier hair. The 100% mulberry silk is also naturally hypoallergenic and unlike other silk pillow cases, these are of the highest quality silk and are machine washable, durable, and even have a zipper to hold your pillow in place. They have over 1.5 million raving fans and you could be next. Try now risk-free for 60 nights at blissy.com slash boss babe and get an additional 30% off. That's B L I S S Y.com slash boss babe and use code boss babe to get an additional 30% off. Give yourself and others the gift of a great night's sleep with Blissie. Can you imagine what it would feel like to know exactly what you need to function at your absolute best? It's the ultimate life hack. Over the past few years, I've taken a really
Starting point is 00:20:34 proactive approach to my personal health. It's so needed when juggling entrepreneurship and motherhood. And I often get asked how I know what supplements or routine my body needs. And that's why I'm so excited to talk about today's podcast sponsor, Wild Health. Founded by two emergency room physicians, Wild Health takes a proactive and preventative approach to healthcare called precision medicine. By using your genetics, biometrics, and lifestyle data, they're able to determine what your body needs when it comes to nutrition, exercise, sleep, supplements, and more. If you are struggling with stress, your cortisol level is probably elevated. I know mine is, which impacts so many other areas
Starting point is 00:21:09 of your health. Well, 50% of all wild health patients have seen their cortisol levels improve after following the health recommendations that were tailored to their unique genetic makeup. I'm so excited to get my updated test results back from wild health and learn more about my unique recommendations. To help you implement your individualized care plan, WildHealth pairs each person with a care team consisting of a board-certified precision medicine physician and an accredited health coach who you can message anytime through their convenient app. WildHealth is generously extending Boss Babe listeners 20% off the cost of membership with code Boss Babe. So head over to wildhealth.com slash Boss Babe and use code Boss Babe at checkout. Make this commitment to yourself
Starting point is 00:21:51 this new year and start taking control of your health today at wildhealth.com slash Boss Babe. How recently was this? I mean, earlier on. Earlier on. Oh my God. Like I definitely don't want to give away timelines. And not that I think anyone would even be able to find who I'm talking about anyway, because that was never like put out the front way. But 30%, I mean... And the business didn't grow. Yeah, right.
Starting point is 00:22:19 And if you're not like a numbers person, a lot of profit sharing is done in all industries, but it's always at off of net profit, like after all expenses are taken out so that the profit share is coming off of, we've already paid for your services and all the things, other things it takes to grow the business in support of like your sales efforts or your, you know, your contribution as someone who's coming in to get a profit share. Top lane revenue is pretty unheard of. It's insane. And when you hear that, that's, that's, I think that's how you can tell some, I was so burned out to the point of, I just thought, I don't give a shit anymore. Like,
Starting point is 00:22:56 I don't want to do this. I need some help in this area. I mean, that's my thought at the time. Obviously now I know it wasn't the case that I needed help. I needed better systems. And I also just needed a different framework to run my business through. Like what I was doing then wasn't sustainable. It was great because it's given me so much experience that I can talk from that point from, but at the time my story was, I need just extra support. I need extra hands on deck. Now I know that not to be the case. Yeah. 30% top line revenue. Yeah. That's insane. And I wrote down something as you're talking like growth at all costs. And I think maybe we put a pin in that and come back to it. But I think there's a big lesson in all these questions and these low moments in business where a lot of times
Starting point is 00:23:41 we find ourselves burned out and at our lowest because we've gotten on the train of like growth at all costs, scale at all costs. And we were talking about this yesterday too, driving around like some of these people that we know that are our friends who do these mental calculations and realize like they can't scale the type of business they have beyond a certain level because it's services-based or it's creative-based where like, you know, they're a photographer or something where they have to take the photos. And the only way to scale that business is to hire other photographers that are going to work for you or to create courses that teach photographers. And then you're going to burn the time no matter what you're doing. And I feel like there's this question of if you believe that the only mark of success is growth, revenue growth,
Starting point is 00:24:23 getting on that momentum train and believing all the hype around scale success is growth, revenue growth, like getting on that momentum train and believing all the hype around scale, scale, scale, scale. For some of us, that's just not like what the business really is for us or what we set out to create. But we've gotten into this mindset of I'm only successful if I continue to grow every year. And hearing you say that, like growth at all costs creates burnout. A lot of times, if you don't have the systems in place, you don't have the right team that you can delegate to all these things. And it leads to these little moments that from the outside probably looked like you were crushing it because you have all these team members and you're launching new things and sales numbers are great,
Starting point is 00:25:00 but you're not getting more money because you're giving away 30% of top line revenue. And ultimately, you are still the face of the company. Like it's still dependent on you. And so I think I wanted to call that out because like I've been in that place of believing growth at all costs is the only measure of success. And it leads to these feelings of every dollar is dependent on me. And it's exhausting. And like you say too, when someone's thinking about, okay, you know, I'm executing services. Like we were talking about CFO services, I'm executing services. I'm going to cap out at say five clients. I can't go beyond that. So my way to scale is to bring other CFOs in who execute for me, and then I'll be freed up.
Starting point is 00:25:41 And I think that's the myth because, you know, you're then not necessarily freed up. You're managing the CFOs and you're, you know, ensuring quality control there and you're bringing in new clients. So you're just stopping trading time, executing services to trade time in another way, trading time to actually manage people and to bring in clients. And I think it's just a question of what do you want to spend your time doing in the business and how do you build a business around that and if you actually love being a photographer or you love being a CFO do that and you can find a way you might have a certain ceiling but is that ceiling and probably like 80% profit margin what you want and is that income goal going to work for you versus sometimes people think if they double their business they double their take home and don't. And especially in businesses where you're not building them to sell,
Starting point is 00:26:29 you're building them to take cash out and to live your lifestyle. You know, some of these businesses would never sell. I think we have to think about that. Like, why am I making the call to grow in this way when I'm not taking any extra home and actually I'm working 10 hours a week more? For some people, that is freedom to them. It totally is because they're free of spending in this way when I'm not taking any extra home and actually I'm working 10 hours a week more. For some people, that is freedom to them. It totally is because they're free of spending the time in a way they dislike to being free to spend the time in a way that they do like. There's nothing wrong with that, but we all have to know what it is for us. Yeah. Well, and you said, you know, part of hitting those moments that you've had, like the story that you just told is part of what's informed where we've
Starting point is 00:27:05 turned the Titanic in Boss Babe now to say, you know, like you said, we've pulled some products off the market. And from the outside or to some people, it is like lowering revenue, right? Because we pull products off that were generating a lot of revenue. But the profit at the end of the day, the amount of cash that's available on the bottom line is about the same because it's fewer employees, fewer, like less ad spend, a lot simpler of a business to execute. And that's what people don't see, right? It's like growth at all costs could get you higher top line revenue, but you might still end up with the same amount of take home money. And so if you are already, if you're exhausted by the idea of growth at all costs, and it's going to net you the same thing,
Starting point is 00:27:51 get off of this train of belief that the only way to be successful is if you're maxing out on every channel, right? And I think that's a lesson that took me a long time to learn, especially as in solopreneur type things or like small services based businesses where, yeah, like you can do all this math to go, okay, if I hire three more people, and they're all doing, they all five clients each too, then that's a million dollars, blah, blah, blah. But it's like, but then I have to manage people and I have to go sell three or four times as many clients and people discount how hard it is to sell clients. And so anyway, we're, we're down a rabbit hole, but I think the lesson in, in these low moments a lot is, are you doing growth for the sake of growth? Are you doing growth because it's truly your goal? And have you ever really run the numbers to know like a smaller, less scaled business that's 80% profit might net you out the same amount as a scaled
Starting point is 00:28:33 business that has a lot more cost and a lot more time in it? And, you know, do you know what your definition of freedom is? Right. Because to a lot of us, it's a very different definition. I think you and I have actually a very similar version of what freedom looks like, which is why we work really well together. I don't think there's a right or wrong. And I do think, you know, every decade of my life, freedom is going to be different. In my twenties, it was freedom of location. I didn't care how many hours I worked. I just wanted to be able to work from wherever. And, you know, once I hit mid twenties financial freedom, that was a huge one in this decade of my life in my
Starting point is 00:29:10 thirties. I really care about freedom of being able to spend my time. However I want, I want to be having babies and raising babies. And there's nothing more important than that to me. Yes. I want to be professionally fulfilled. I know that being a stay at home parent isn't for me because I get a lot of enjoyment and fulfillment from what I execute at work and also what I'm able to do in terms of impact. But I think you have to know what freedom looks like for you. It's a big part of the society is getting people clear on that and help them build a business that can support that freedom for them. Yeah. Because if you don't, you're going to end up building a business that you hate and making these ridiculous decisions.
Starting point is 00:29:49 Been there. Speaking from experience, my friends. Yeah. So, okay. So next question, because I think it's another good segue is I know a lot of your stories and I've obviously watched Boss Babe over the years and you over the years. What's your most surreal moment? Like a moment that's your most surreal moment like a moment that's in in building this big of a business and having you know being in the rooms that you've been in what type of like surreal experience have you had where you're it blew your mind you're like is this real life okay this one's a fun one okay we're pivoting into some maybe more fun ones that don't make me look like a crazy person so So this moment for me was mind blowing. I remember
Starting point is 00:30:28 getting a DM on LinkedIn and I'm, I'm not like a LinkedIn person, right? Like I don't check my LinkedIn very often. And I got a DM from someone and I just happened to check it. And it looked like they'd actually DM me a couple of times prior to that. And she wanted to hop on a call. I looked at her profile. I'm thinking, okay, she sounds pretty legit. Hey she wanted to hop on a call. I looked at her profile. I'm thinking, okay, she sounds pretty legit. Hey, let me hop on a call. So I took this call and on the call, she told me, Hey, I work with Elle magazine. She actually headed up. I was like a 660 million department. It's something crazy like that. Hey, I work with Elle magazine and we are coming up to our 75th anniversary and to celebrate the entire year of our 75th anniversary, we want to partner with one
Starting point is 00:31:12 company. It's Boss Babe. And I remember thinking this can't be real life. This was so surreal to me because I grew up seeing Elle magazine on the shelves and buying the magazines lower than Elle because it was, they were cheaper, but thinking, oh, the people that buy Elle magazine, like they must be crushing it because that was a more expensive magazine. It was like the thick cover and the really glossy pages. And like, you know, I could never afford any of the fashion in there. Like I would buy the way, way cheaper ones, but I would look at Elle and anytime I was making like a vision board, I would really splash out to buy those kind of top shelf magazines. So that was always my perception. So to then be in that moment where they wanted to partner with us was insane. And
Starting point is 00:31:56 I remember just thinking this can't be real life. And we partnered with them for the entire year. And we ended up giving away, I think it was $15,000 in scholarships to women in our community. We were in their magazine multiple times. Like our designs were in their magazine. Danielle and I did a photo shoot. Our faces were in the magazine. It was so surreal. And I just think, I thought, wow, they've been in business 75 years and they have chosen our company to sell it. Like they just said our company values are very, very similar to theirs. I was even mind blown that they knew who we were. And still to this day, even telling you the story, I have all the copies in the cupboard, by the way, because I like...
Starting point is 00:32:40 I was going to say, do you have them framed? Like, I mean, I would not even look twice if it was like a big splashy framed out thing on your wall. I do need to get them framed. I have them all currently sitting in the cupboard. We never actually executed on it since we moved to this house, but I do have them there. There's like those ones in the magazine that we're going to get framed. But it's still it's even telling you the story feels so surreal.
Starting point is 00:33:01 And also, you know, it's so funny running this company because I still feel like I'm the Natalie that was running this company, like in my bedroom, just like trying to make it work. I still feel like that version of myself, but to now be sitting here and actually have a history in the company that I can look back on and pull moments of, I'm like, oh my goodness. Like, was that real? Was I dreaming it? Like, it still feels so surreal. Yeah. Well, I love these stories. That's why I wanted to do this episode because I feel like these are like the moments in retrospect where you're like, I've done a lot of shit. And I've been through some like, crazy moments where like the story we opened with where you're like, is this real, but also the recognition of of success and bucket
Starting point is 00:33:44 list moments where Elle magazine reaches out and you connect to like little Natalie who has memory. Let's take a quick pause to talk about my new favorite all-in-one platform, Kajabi. You know I've been singing their praises lately because they have helped our business run so much smoother and with way less complexity, which I love. Not to mention our team couldn't be happier because now everything is in one place so it makes collecting data, creating pages, collecting payment, all the things so much simpler. One of our mottos at Boss Babe is simplify to amplify and Kajabi has really helped us do that this year. So of course I needed to share it here with you. It's the perfect time of year to do a bit of spring cleaning in your business, you know, get rid of the complexity and instead really focus on getting organized and making things
Starting point is 00:34:28 as smooth as possible. I definitely recommend Kajabi to all of my clients and students. So if you're listening and haven't checked out Kajabi yet, now is the perfect time to do so because they are offering Boss Babe listeners a 30-day free trial. Go to Kajabi.com slash Boss Babe to claim your 30-day free trial. That's Kajabi.com slash Boss Babe. I remember when I opened the yoga studio and the very first day that we had customers come through the door and I was like, this is wild. Like six months ago, this was core and shell empty space that hadn't been built out. And now we have a full operational place of business that people will walk in the door
Starting point is 00:35:11 and spend money. Because I'd always worked in corporate before then. And in a huge corporation where understanding the exchange of money in a huge corporation doesn't feel real. You're like, oh, these clients bought some software, but they paid... It's a multi-billion dollar company. You're not really attached to the dollar moving. But in a small business and in a brick and mortar where like people walk in the door and they come to the front desk and they give you their credit card and then they go and take a yoga class. And I was like, this is insane. Like this is a surreal moment in terms of I figured it out.
Starting point is 00:36:09 Like as an entrepreneur, I'm like, oh shit,. I did it. People are walking in the door and spending money in my business. It's so tactile. And it gives me goosebumps because as the entrepreneur, as a visionary of that business, it was like, oh, this. In one year's time from having the idea to opening the doors, people are here spending money. Like this is crazy. And now of course, with online business, you can accelerate that timeline to be like, I had the idea on Friday and I'm making money on Monday and we can teach you that. But I think those are also like little surreal moments where you're like, you get the validation of your own vision for the company or your own idea coming to life and people buying it from you. And you're like, oh, this is what people talk about with entrepreneurship I think it's so surreal to have like a friend or like someone that's not a friend or family member buy from you yeah like oh my goodness I have a real business yeah yeah eventually I want to talk about sales too because I do think there's some psychology in sales where there is this hurdle you have to get over where like I was listening to Russell Brunson yesterday, and he said, getting people to buy from you is
Starting point is 00:36:48 actually helping them be successful. You have to detach from I'm taking someone's money and it has to be the service I'm giving them or the product they're getting from me is going to help them live better. And that idea that you just said, I'm like, that's what it is because when it's your friends and family buying, you can tell yourself it's like pity, right? Or they're all like, you're a cute little business. You're just, I'm just supporting Natalie. But as soon as strangers start buying from you, you're like, okay, wait, I have something people want. And that alone is surreal. I think for a lot of us, and when we've had ideas for so long in our heads, or we have a skill that we want other people to learn from us, And then someone buys it and you're like, oh, this has value. There's just an anchoring in the exchange
Starting point is 00:37:29 of money for a skill. And I think that's the back end of sales that a lot of us are afraid of is, well, I'm taking someone's money and can they really afford it and all this mindset stuff. When if we switch the frame to like, no, they're paying me for my value and I'm helping them with their life. That to me is surreal. It's like, what a cool human, primal human thing to exchange goods or like, you give me this, I give you this. We did that when we were in tribes and things like that. And we live that in the modern world. If we can get over our blocks around sales and our blocks around money and just be like, I created something amazing and I'm going to give it to you. And in exchange, you're going to give me money. Cool. So true. It's surreal.
Starting point is 00:38:13 I mean, there's a whole tangent, but you just saying that we did that in tribes, like I bet even going back, I bet there was like, you know, cave women that figured out like how to do their hair a certain way. And they were like making their own potions i bet that they were like exchanging those and selling those like i bet commerce has like this has been been around forever so long because someone figures something out and someone else wants it and if you figure out something that's harder or more scarce or or like you know like, a certain like meat or something. It's like, well, every, every village or every tribe probably could get meat, you know? So like exchanging meat might just be, oh, we had a, we had a bad hunt. You guys had a good hunt.
Starting point is 00:38:53 So that's an easier commodity to exchange. But finding berries or honey or like something that's more scarce and harder to harvest, it requires more skills. And so there's a higher value on it. And that absolutely has been commerce over the ages of an evolution of humanity. And, and, and then we get into our like modern life and it's like, I have how many years of experience? How many years have you been building funnels? Why would we have any kind of block around charging money for something like that? Knowing how much we've put into it versus what someone can go get for free on Google or something, you know? And yet like that mindset comes how much we've put into it versus what someone can go get for free
Starting point is 00:39:25 on Google or something. And yet that mindset comes up in so many people where they're like, well, there's so many other people teaching it. Or why would people pay me for this over someone else? It's like, you've done this for 10 years. You have real knowledge. Your knowledge is scarce. Charge for it. So I love those metaphors because I think that when I get wrapped around the axle in my head or I get into a scarcity mindset and I think back to this is just primal commerce. This is human to human relationship. You have a skill. Other people want it. They're going to pay you for it. And you can also be at the same time in awe of how surreal it is to be able to exchange your knowledge or your services for money
Starting point is 00:40:05 and and help people okay but wait before we move on because it's just like spurs i'm like this is such a tangent question but i want to ask it anyway right so you're talking about like commerce through the ages okay let's go back in time let's imagine we're we're in tribes right yeah we're in tribes this is like way back when the beginning, like a thousand years ago. Yeah. Even further. Like if you're like, if you do ever follow like the Graham Hancock stuff, so it's super interesting. There's a guy called Graham Hancock. He has some documentaries on Netflix. He argues that humans are actually 10,000 years old and there's like evidence of them, of humans being around 10, years ago and there was like cataclysms that happened and anyway so okay we're going back a long time also a thousand years it's
Starting point is 00:40:51 like what 10 people were here no a thousand years was like the 1300s i feel like like native americans were all over the u.s at that time like yeah but a thousand years is technically 10 people back right oh 10 generations yeah oh i have no idea about like if you think about it like that like it's just 10 like say 10 people live to 100 oh yeah well yeah just not that insane that's not that insane so we're going back to like tribal okay times like medieval like that would be a few thousand at least several thousand years no like before then before you had like full-on houses and castles okay like the og times where you're like out there hunting okay what are they what times are they called i probably like bc like at least you could actually you could have you had language
Starting point is 00:41:35 skills yeah i don't know i'm in the entrepreneurial world but i mean several thousand years okay great so we're going back that far here's my question i know somebody's gonna be like humans had language for somebody you guys i'm not on mushrooms today i'm not microdosing today so go back to that time we're in a tribe and there's another tribe that have just we we've had some really shitty hunts like people are just not doing well right now performance across the tribe is low right we're not hitting our goals right kpis kpis are not being hit this other tribe we can see them they are crushing their kpis they're you know catching all these animals they are like getting
Starting point is 00:42:17 fat because they have so much like excess food like they are living their best lives we're over here just like feeling sorry for ourselves and then i'm like, Lindsay, you and I need to take control of this situation. And I'm like, Lindsay, go sell them something. What in your mind, where would your mind go to, to go sell that other tribe to get food? Okay. Here's the even weirder thing that my brain does with this. I actually think this way now because I am like, I kind of feel like we might be headed down this path where like we need to have these skills we might need to be bartering oh like you think shit's gonna hit i do i do yeah another whole topic but i because i have actually thought about this and to me it's like okay what are the perennial things that that will sell like this day and age like alcohol sugar um illicit drugs like things that people would would be addicted to that if like
Starting point is 00:43:07 the modern world blew up what would you want to have a stockpile of and that you could go sell for like meat and eggs and like the basics because it would have a lot higher value you could get a lot of lower level basic stuff for it so that's how my brain works i'm like if i'm like if i were to be a prepper i would be stockppiling honey and coconut oil and alcohol and the things that I know. What if you're in the tribe? But if you're 2,000 years ago and it wasn't, you can go to Costco and get these things like I do.
Starting point is 00:43:36 You're from scratch. No one in the tribe has hit their KPIs. Yeah. I mean, I feel like it's resourcefulness around like, could we go, I mean, without getting like too crazy, it's like, could we go take over an area? Like, could we go find the berries or could we block the water or something like that where we now create a problem, like a conflict where it's like, you kind of have to work with us or or like the other way my my mind goes is like do we start marrying like do we combine forces like do we have do we do some arranged marriages and be like hey like can't beat them join them or they have they have abundant resources in one thing we have abundance in other ways like could we combine which i imagine like i'm not an anthropologist but i imagine that's what a lot of what happened a lot is like, if food was scarce one place, and it was abundant somewhere else,
Starting point is 00:44:30 you have like intermingling of genetics. And basically, the only then commodity you have is like your own people. So could you give them workforce? Or could you give them women who could, you know, grind the flowers and things like that, you know? So my mind's like, how do you give them women who could grind the flowers and things like that? Yeah, good point. My mind's like, how do you join them versus trade with them if you don't have any resources to trade? But if you're in the modern world, I'm like, you got to think like, yeah, everybody needs flour and rice and beans, all these things that are the basic subsistence stuff.
Starting point is 00:45:04 But you know, you're more powerful if you have the thing that's harder to get. So like if you transpose this into business, it's like everybody can teach social media or like everybody can sell flour. Okay, cool. Like what would people need to make bread? Like what can you then sell on top of social media? That's like very unique to you and a higher value thing that not everybody can just go get. Yeah. So that's how, like, if you threw me back 2000 years, I'd be like, okay, what do we got here that we can sell that's special or different or, and then like, ultimately, yes, if you don't have that, I would be like, okay, let's go block the source of water. I love it. I love thinking about these things.
Starting point is 00:45:46 Same. Okay. Okay. Back on the rails. My next question is, when have you felt the most powerful in business or been in a situation that felt very powerful? I don't know if the words powerful, well, maybe. I would say I felt the most in my power when I was ready to buy the business or sell the business. When I was in a place where I was unattached to the outcome, but I knew that something had to change for me, for the company, for, you know, other people involved when like I just accepted that versus resisting it and surrendered to what that outcome had to be I'm not necessarily like someone that's gonna like fight for like I'm not that kind of person I'm very driven but I'm also a big believer in what's meant to be will be yeah
Starting point is 00:46:37 and I don't believe in like pushing boulders uphill like if something's not working I'm not gonna like fight tooth and nail for it I'm not definitely not afraid of hard work and not afraid to like drive and work really hard for the things that I want and I care about but when I know something needs to change I feel like I can get into a place of non-attachment yeah and that to me feels like like when you said the word powerful I just thought I'm most in my power when I know I'm okay, no matter what. I know that no matter what my next step is, I'm good. That feels really powerful to me. It wouldn't have felt good to me to like go through this process, hanging on to it, needing to be in a certain way or like making decisions that were, you know, forcing other people into
Starting point is 00:47:21 certain things that would not have felt good. But approaching that decision, I felt very, very in my power. Yeah. Like as you're talking, I'm like, I feel like that's, I would call that neutrality where you like, you've removed the charge of the outcome. And so you're like, I'm neutral here to myself. I'm neutral that whatever outcome happens, it's not going to throw me off of my like inner axis. I have power. I am anchored in my inner, inner alignment and any outcome is neutral to that inner alignment. And I think that's, that is a very powerful place. And it's a place that a lot of us think we are at until something like really altering happens. And all of a sudden we're like, Ooh, okay. I'm way more attached to this than I thought I was. And that's, that's get really nerded out on inner alignment and inner work to go, I want to be able to have basically anything thrown at me and be able to like show up to those kinds of negotiations that you were in and not get emotional and not fly off the handle and not say what maybe you want to say to people, but you're
Starting point is 00:48:29 like, okay, that's not going to help, you know? And I think we can all like, I've been in so many situations where I remember feeling I am very powerful in this moment because I'm, I'm not saying what I want to say, like in a bad way, you know or like I am not self-abandoning in this moment to win right and I'm not self-abandoning and abandoning in this moment to please others to please others right self-abandoning in any sense right is is what knocks you out of your power it may feel powerful in the moment to like win or please people but those are the situations you walk away from and you're like oh this doesn't feel good yeah and I would say like it definitely hasn't always been my journey this has been a long path but I remember going through all of that feeling
Starting point is 00:49:16 happy no matter what you know I'm I'm happy because I am happy not I am happy because things went this kind of way or not that kind of way I'm happy because I'm happy, not I am happy because things went this kind of way or not that kind of way. I'm happy because I'm happy. I'm calm because I'm calm. That felt really, really good. And it did feel very much in my power. And I definitely like hold that to myself as a reference point too of that is possible. And I, you'll know you work with me very, very closely, like not really much shakes me with that stuff. No. And even even when it does it seems like even when something does shake you you discharge it really quickly you're like yeah okay I handled it moving on and and you don't spin out on things and I think that like I'm interested is that a learn like have you learned that and trained that in
Starting point is 00:49:59 over the years would like 10 years ago Natalie have flown off the handle 100% like you know a previous version of me like would get really charged over things would go into negotiations if I'm activated heated like say things and you know over the years I feel like I've really learned to reel that in and I've I really think that it's important in business to be able to take the emotion out of certain things. And I also just had certain experiences where people reacted in a certain way to me that I thought, I never want to treat someone like that. I don't want to be like that. So observing it and someone else showed me what I didn't want. And I think I've trained it out of myself to be like that. And I've also just
Starting point is 00:50:45 witnessed whether it's in myself or someone else making decisions from a place of getting really activated or triggered. They're never really good decisions. Yeah. Whereas I feel like, you know, there's very little that does shake me or something that can like something that can stay with me to a point of I walk out of my office and I bring it into my home life. Like there's very little, I can't think of anything right now that would do that to me because I care about being at peace at home and at peace within myself. And so I just do the work be at peace with myself. I think this ties back to our freedom conversation too, because you and I have talked about this a lot where one of the aspects of definition of freedom for you and I is like, we're unbothered. And that like, not unbothered in a callous, like, I don't give a fuck about you. Like, not that at all. But
Starting point is 00:51:31 unbothered in the sense of I know who I am. I know what I'm building. And you don't like it. Fine. Like, that's fine. You can go do something different. Or you don't like me. Fine. I'm not going to change who I am for you. And all of that is rooted not in arrogance or in like lack of self-awareness. It's actually rooted in the exact opposite, which is like, I have done so much fucking work on myself that this is who I am. And everything you get from me is a hundred percent authentic. And so if you truly don't like me or you don't want what I'm selling or you disagree with me, okay. But I'm being real. I'm being honest. This is me. And I've worked really hard to manage myself in this way. So I'm unbothered by the external measure of allowing things to get to me and being reactive in that way. And that is powerful. I
Starting point is 00:52:18 think that's like, that's what I want for everybody. And I think that's for me, that's part of the nuance of freedom is like, I want you to feel so empowered in your own business and in your own life. And like, you know, all the tools we have are to help you feel that way that you protect your own freedom from people's ability to get to you literally and figuratively. The external freedom is great and a freedom is the real deal. Well, and you said it on the last pod that we did where you said I had spent like talking about the deal with Danielle and like, you know, what you guys did for you to take Boss Babe. And it was like you had offers and all these things and you're like, I spent the money and it just didn't
Starting point is 00:53:00 like it didn't change. It didn't give me any charge to have like spent the money in my head. And I think that's such a good metaphor for people to think through, too. It's like play the way? Like, is this, does this really change anything other than like, in this moment, I'm really reactive, like faced with a big amount of money. You're like, in this moment, this big amount of money feels so big. And like, I could go do all these amazing things. And then you actually give yourself a couple of days for the charge to disperse. And you're like, oh, that doesn't really change like my day to day peace. Yeah. And I would say too, even just with me and Danielle, not one time throughout this whole thing, which was like a huge stressful process for both of us. I'm not saying it was smooth sailing. Neither of us called each other names. Neither of us got on calls and were like really rude to each other. Neither of us, we just didn't do it. And I think
Starting point is 00:54:00 that's what you get when you are just, when you have been in business for such a long time and you've learned how to work with people and you've learned how to do your own work and yes, they're all going to be triggering situations from all angles but to not let that change you and have you bring that into deals and stuff I think is really powerful
Starting point is 00:54:18 and neither of us did. Neither of us showed up in ways that we end up coming off the phone. Like I feel like I could speak for her with that too and came off the phone and be like, oh my goodness, why did I say that? Or I regret saying that or anything like that, which is nice. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's, you know, respect over years of building something together where even if the relationship is not complete, there's reverence for what you've created together. And that it's almost like the business is the baby.
Starting point is 00:54:43 It's like, yeah, you might want to get a divorce from your partner and cope, but now and but you never want to do something to harm the baby. Yeah, I think that's it. It's respect. It's like, you know, you you don't have to lose that respect yourself or respect for others in really challenging situations. And I don't think either of us ever did. And I think that's, that says a
Starting point is 00:55:05 lot. And, you know, I hope I can have that in all of my business negotiations moving forward. Yeah. Okay. Speaking of that last one, because we're about to hit time here, but what's been your proudest moment and everything you've done so far in your life business? Well, in my life, it's going to gonna be my baby so maybe we stick it to business people be like that's boring no it's boring always every mom's be like it's my baby it's like well okay um and you're right she's the best I know I feel like it's so funny like if you're not a parent and you listen and like you're listening to parents and I remember me I'm like I roll how can a baby be your proudest moment you know you're like not creative and you become a parent you're listening to parents. I remember me, I'm like, I roll, how can a baby be your proudest moment? And then you become a parent and you're like, oh my goodness, everything.
Starting point is 00:55:49 Okay. My proudest moment in business, honestly, it was the first time we ever launched the membership. And I know this goes back so long and yes, like, you know, so many things have been achieved since then. But the first year that we launched the boss babe membership again I was in San Francisco at the time working full-time on the company and it was just it was no team there was no nothing and I remember I've got this video of me it's like past midnight and I'm in the first ever membership launch and I have a little white board to the side of me I'm like tracking how many members join and I have a little whiteboard to the side of me. I'm like tracking how many members join. And I'd set a goal that year. And I think it was for year one of the business. The goal was 300K revenue. And that to me felt so unachievable and so huge and
Starting point is 00:56:36 scary and audacious. I was like, I'm writing it down anyway. And I remember that first ever membership launch going so far beyond anything I could ever have imagined. We ended up hitting 1.2 million that first year in business. And it was so far beyond my goal. And really that stemmed from that first ever launch and things grew from there. And I, I can remember, you know, exactly what I was wearing, what the room looked like, sitting in that chair on my laptop, answering customer service stuff at like midnight. I don't think I went to bed till like 3 a.m.,
Starting point is 00:57:13 woke up again at six and just was in that hustle and was so on the path of, this is what I wanna do in the world. Like this is something that I love, something that's going to make a difference and I'm enjoying it. I remember I built the entire website myself from scratch. I had no idea what I was doing.
Starting point is 00:57:33 I built the entire membership website from scratch. I like plugged in all of these APIs so that we could revoke access, give access, all of that. Like you name it, I'd done it and then execute on that launch. And it was just so surreal. And I still go back to that moment. I still feel like that person with every launch. I'm like, Oh my goodness, it's going well. Like, I don't think I've ever lost that sense of like, I never go into something with expectation. Yeah. And so I've never lost
Starting point is 00:57:58 that. Like, Oh my goodness, it's actually working even with Black Friday, Cyber Monday. I'm like, I like all the time. Like, Oh my God, Lindsay, it's working. It's working. People are joining people like this. And yeah, it was my proudest. I think with pride too, it's kind of like what I said about people walking into the yoga studio. It's that moment where you realize like, I did so much work and I thought of everything and it's working, you know? And I think that's something that working with so many entrepreneurs, you probably feel the same way over the years. And so many of them, women where there's this like hesitance to express pride or like to even know how to feel pride. Cause I feel like a lot of us have been beaten down over the years of like, don't brag, like that's arrogant, you know,
Starting point is 00:58:40 or like the self-deprecation that a lot of women, especially millennial women, are very prone to where it's like, oh, it's nothing. It's not as big as that launch. Or like, oh, I thought we would do 500 and we only did 300. And you're like, you did fucking $300,000 in your first launch? Girl, I feel like it's such an important thing to talk about to say, when you work this hard to build a business and it works, even if it's not mind- it works, even if it's not mind-blowing results, even if it's your first customer, there are all these milestones that you're Natalie Ellis sitting here looking back six and seven years and going, it's still that
Starting point is 00:59:14 moment for me. Seven years on, I've made multiple eight figures of revenue. And I still feel the most proud of this business from the very first time I did it all by myself and it fucking worked and it continues to work and it's working on a much larger scale now. But if you had not felt that in that moment, you wouldn't have kept going. You wouldn't have worked harder on the next one and you wouldn't... So I think I wanted to end on pride. What are you the most proud of? Because I knew it wasn't like, oh, that we're going to hit this much money this year. It's like, yeah, that's fine. That's great. I'm also proud of that. But it's the feeling of sitting there launching something that you built yourself and seeing every sale come in and going, oh, my God, it's working. I remember having the PayPal notifications
Starting point is 00:59:58 on my phone and having to turn them off because it got so and like I would took me like a good couple of months to even turn them off, but we would be at dinner and the phone just, it was insanity. And me and Stephen would be looking at each other like, oh my goodness, is this real life? And like, I knew the name of every single member. I mean, I mostly still do. Like I've just not, that's never left, but you know, as the numbers grow, it's still every single member that's coming even over Black Friday. I'm like, look, you see me checking constantly. I'm like, oh, this person just joined.
Starting point is 01:00:26 Oh, this person just joined. Let me go look them up on social media. Let me go find out what they do. Like, I just love it. And I think that also shows me why I'm not meant to have a business that like goes in, especially in this season, raises venture and like-
Starting point is 01:00:38 Well, I was just going to say like, is there a point where you would ever not want to know that? I think of like that episode I listened to on Diary of a CEO with Brian Chesky from Airbnb haunts me because he was so emotional about that moment. The pivot between I knew everyone inside the business and I knew all of our customers. And then the pivot, or it's not a pivot, but it's like crossing the threshold between I know everyone and I really am in the business to the business is at a scale now where like I just get reports. I don't see a Black Friday sale. I would only get a report at the end of the month to go like, yeah, we did pretty good on Black Friday. Like, would you ever want to be in a business where you get to a certain, you get to a level where you don't have that personal like touch point with the transaction with the the actual customer i don't think so yeah would you i don't know like being an e-com i i have a little taste of that now where i'm like
Starting point is 01:01:32 i just see shopify notifications and i'm but i still like but you look at their names i look at their names because i'm like where do they live like who is this person i don't ever like deep dive on them and go find out like look at at their Instagram or anything. That would be a little creepy. Yeah. I mean, I don't like stalk everyone, but definitely if a notification pops up and their email address is like an interesting email and I think, oh, I could use a service like that or whatever, like I'll look it up. Or repeat customer. Like one of the things I think would be really hard for me, even in e-com is like I start
Starting point is 01:02:00 to recognize repeat buyers and Shopify will give you those, you know, reports if you really want to like see all your repeat buyers. But will give you those reports if you really want to like see all your repeat buyers. But I start to learn names. I'm like, oh, Melissa, like, gosh, she's bought so many times. They're like, Chad, like this is his sixth order. Like he must really like it. Then you're like, let's throw them in a freebie. Yeah. And I throw freebies in. And like, so I think that there is, I don't know, because it's like, if I were given a rocket ship to a billion dollar corporation, would I say no? Like, maybe. In the season of my life, I would. In season and in the industry, like in online business, I think because we're already online,
Starting point is 01:02:34 some of the humanity of it is knowing who your customers are, whether you're directly delivering something to them or you have a membership or a course. It's like, they're investing in a product of your mind, you know? And I think that there's something to be said for still having some direct tie into, you know, your effort becomes something that they can purchase from you that changes their life. That is still a pretty direct line of value. And I think for me and it sounds like for you too, that's a really, there's emotion in that like that's my legacy that's my creation you know and I imagine if you're running a big venture-backed big multi-billion dollar corporation you get that in some other way maybe I don't know we
Starting point is 01:03:15 should talk to somebody who does that but it's hard it's hard to imagine if someone put me on a path right now of like raising VC and coming up to a billion dollar valuation exiting and stuff for me that would just be a no right now like yeah that wouldn't be a path I would choose to pursue and that's nothing never you know maybe in a different decade or whatever but right now no yeah I'm so happy I can tell you like I'm 41 and I'm sitting here I'm like I that just sounds like a lot like yeah it sounds like it would take away my freedom like Like even with a little older kids, it would take away your freedom. And I think this is such like it's an important, I think it's a good place to end. And like on this thought of coming back to what is your definition of freedom?
Starting point is 01:03:53 And before you go out seeking a freedom-based business and trying to create more freedom in your business, like really knowing yourself and being honest with yourself to go, what is freedom for me? Is it really a dollar amount? Or have I just been conditioned that a certain dollar amount is meaningful on Instagram? But for me, it's not the dollar amount. It's the location I live in, or it's the hours of the day that I work so that I can do my routine in the morning or see my kids in the morning or whatever. Or it's the ability to take months off at a time and not work at all, you know? And these are all real life examples of people we know who it's like their freedom is to take the whole summer off and travel and not have to attend to their business,
Starting point is 01:04:34 which is not something you and I could do in our current structure of business. But our structure is like, you stop working at four because that's when your nanny's done. And I, you know, I start at nine because my nanny doesn't start till then. And we aren't beholden to a boss saying you have to be in your desk at eight. So there's all these different versions of what is freedom. And I think of all these stories today, it's like going back to the purpose of these businesses is to create something that complements our lifestyle, not that we are chained to or a slave to, right? And so many of us, I think, for whatever reason, have either created something that was a response to external pressure or something has become really successful, but it's gotten away from what our original intention
Starting point is 01:05:17 was. And now we're sitting in this place of like, this actually doesn't feel like freedom to me. Yeah. The second thing is come join the society and we have all these templates we can help you but first you have to know what is freedom how far away from it are you and like what truly do you need to get back to or to get to freedom and then we can help you from there yeah i love that i also i know we're kind of going over time but just hearing you talk about all that one thing that came into my mind to share is I've talked about in the podcast before but we just closed on a house in the UK it's a house for us and so we paid cash for this house and for all intents and purposes that's probably like a terrible financial decision like for a lot of people looking in there like you know I'm gonna get hit up with all these emails and dms do you know you could be investing that money and getting this
Starting point is 01:06:03 kind of return let me think about putting all my money into investments and what it's worth when I'm 70, when I'm 80, when I'm 90, right? I could be sitting there with all of this money in the bank to then go and buy houses around the world in places I want to visit that I don't even live in, right? That's what I'm working towards. But the fact that I'm doing that now,
Starting point is 01:06:25 I'm getting to actually use the house. I'm getting use out of it in the summer when I visit there. I can have friends and family stay there wherever, whenever they want. That to me feels like my rich life. That to me feels like my freedom. Would I rather have that money in a high interest account or invested in stocks or generating 10% return a year. No. I'd rather put it into this house. No, I don't have a mortgage on it. Know that it's there whenever I want to visit the UK, my family can go stay. It's right in the countryside. It's beautiful. That to me feels like freedom and just permission to make decisions that feel like freedom to you, even if, you know, on paper and everyone's accountant and dad will tell you it's a terrible decision. Like make the decision that feels like freedom to you, not the decision that when you're 70, you look back and think, ah, I could have had that way earlier. Okay. Yes. Because I'm going to go down a tangent, so we'll cap it here.
Starting point is 01:07:23 But I think we should do an episode on how we think about money. Because you saying that, I think I've talked to three or four women recently and just in the last couple of weeks saying, I tapped into my 401k to do this, or we didn't contribute to something this year, or it's the end of the year right now and people were talking about tax season. Instead of putting the money into the 401k as a tax write-off, I invested in this mastermind or whatever. And my accountant was like, you're spending the money instead of saving the money. And they're like, yeah, because I know next year I'll double my revenue because I'm in this mastermind. Like this is a real person who's joining CEO mama. And I'm like,
Starting point is 01:07:57 yes. And these are the paradigms that are shifting and, but people aren't talking about them. Is this idea of we live now, we live now, look at the boomer generation like my mom, God bless her. She's going to have God knows how much money sitting in a 401k when she dies. But she has not lived. She's never traveled. She hasn't. You know what I'm like? So you're going to work every day of your life till you're 67 and a half. You're going to quote unquote retire with all this money. But you're by her own words, she's like too old now to go to Europe and go see the castles in England and all these things that she always dreamed of doing. But she worked her whole life to save all this money so she could do it when she's retired. And now she's like, doesn't want to travel because she's older and all these other health issues and stuff. And I'm like, that is just not my definition of freedom to work my whole freaking life to then end up 70 and have millions of dollars, but have missed the prime of my life when I would have enjoyed it with my kids, or I would have been
Starting point is 01:08:53 able to do it when my body felt really healthy. I will die on that fucking hill of don't make stupid financial decisions. But if the choice is your growth and your freedom now versus some future versions of you's ability to not live in a retirement home on Medicare, I don't know. I just feel like that's not a good trade. Trading for your future self, who you don't even know what life is going to be like in 30 years, for something that you know today you are aligned with and you want. I cannot imagine a value system where you would give priority to a future, a 70 year old version of yourself that you don't even know is going to happen. Totally. And like there's an air of like, yeah, you have what you need to have. You make smart decisions and you do save so that you have that. But yeah,
Starting point is 01:09:40 the exact thing. And I remember to me, this felt like such a no brainer decision, but there were so many people being like, this is the worst financial decision you can make. Like, as if I don't understand money and like, listen, I'm blonde, but I understand money. And I remember speaking to Lori Harder, she was just in the podcast last week. Cause I really love hearing Chris on money. And I was like, Hey, this to me feels like a fuck. Yes. Am I good? Am I insane? And she was like, let me ask you a question. question you know think about some family members that might not be here in 10 20 years from now think about all the experiences you might have with them in the UK and in that house and then think about the money you could have if you invest this amount of money and you love the money you might have in
Starting point is 01:10:17 20 years time would you rather have the experiences that you had with them in that place or would you rather have the money and I was like well it's a no- And I was like, well, it's a no brainer. She was like, well, and it's a no brainer. And I think when you pose that question to people, most people are like, it's a no brainer. I'd rather have the experience with my family or my children or my spouse now than a maybe of me 70, you know, 30 years from now, even though none of us are guaranteed to live 30 more years. Yeah. I think everybody in the moment of questioning would say what you said, but for some reason, like there's still a block, there's a block in our culture is so like, there's so much shame around spending money in that way. And I think like, maybe it's a relic of past generations and maybe it's just like pervasive negative money
Starting point is 01:11:00 mindset, but I don't know. I just feel like heavy shame comes through anytime a lot of people, any of us like express that we're going to spend money now instead of saving it for the future. And that, that mindset has always bothered me. And I, you know, I think it's partially being entrepreneurial and being so risk tolerant to go like, I just know if I need more money when I'm older, I'll just find a way to make it. Maybe that belief system isn't really part of older generations because it wasn't as easy to make money. And we do have it easier, I think. Yeah. I mean, I think about the amount of money I spend in a year on family flights and it's an obscene amount of money. And there's, you know, plenty of times where the flights will get
Starting point is 01:11:40 canceled and they'll call me like super upset. We can't get another flight for three days. Like I'm so stressed. I'm like, oh, I'll just book you another one. It leaves in an hour. And like, to me, I don't even, and to them, we're just in different situations and it is easier for our generation, I think making money. So we're in different situations and to them, they're like, Oh my goodness, this is so much money. And to me, I'm like, this is an experience. I don't think about the dollar amount. I think about the time and that's three days extra that I want you here. Yeah. That's that's off. That's a free day. It's not just about freedom based business. It's the freedom based business. What you're allowed to the far left lane and pay a toll to go around traffic. And then there's like four or five lanes of traffic that will back up on the highway, on the normal highway. And that's like, you know, $1.50 to go in the toll lane.
Starting point is 01:12:34 And it's the express lane. It means that you don't stop and wait for traffic. And you're not in gridlock. And I'm like, I am always mind blown, like exasperated with people where I'm like, I get over into the toll lane. I'm like, oh, I can skip 12 miles of stopped traffic for $1.50. And I'm the only one in the fucking lane. And I think it's such a metaphor for life where I'm like, yes, I will invest $1.50 to save 30 minutes of sitting in traffic. Like do the math people. That's $3 an hour. Like you don't value your time of $3 an hour. And also, sitting in traffic sucks. So I put a premium on that. That's like $300 of my time. If you were
Starting point is 01:13:12 to pay me to sit in traffic, I would charge you $300. So to pay $1.50 to skip it is such a no brainer. And yet, I literally talk to people and they're like, oh, that's really... Why would I pay? I'm already in the car. I'm like, the relationship between time and money, I think is one of these things that is so fundamental and entrepreneurs seem to understand it better than most people. But I think when we talk about freedom, this is the equation, right? It's time and money. And we are so, so, so conditioned in this culture that it's only money and that your time can be traded in any way possible in as maximum amount as possible to get more money. I'd rather watch 30 hours of YouTube videos and not pay a dime than spend a thousand dollars on a training that's going to teach me in two
Starting point is 01:13:54 hours. No, spend the money, get the training, condense the time, compress time, create more time. Right. I mean, and again, like you phrase this to people, you're like, would you spend a thousand dollars to make a million? And they're like, yes, any to people, you're like, would you spend $1,000 to make a million? And they're like, yes, any day. And you're like, okay. But then they're in the real life experience of it. And you're like, but you would sit in traffic for 30 minutes instead of pay $1.50. This is the math that I think we have to talk more about, you and I, because it's math you and I talk about in everything, how we run Boss Bay, but also in our own lives and all of our experience of over and over and over in my life as an entrepreneur, I have been faced with that
Starting point is 01:14:28 decision. Would I pay a thousand to make a million? And when you ask me that, I'm like, if you could promise me that I'll make a million dollars off of spending a thousand, like, yes, I would do that any day. I have made that decision over and over and over. And it's exactly why I am successful. But from the outside, I does invite a lot of criticism because people are like, you're not saving. You don't have a 401k, like all these things. I'm like, yeah, because I've traded that money to get further ahead because I know that the further ahead I get now, that will just put me so much further ahead when it comes to being 70 years old that I won't need my 401k to have had an 8% deposit in it since I was 25 years old.
Starting point is 01:15:06 The math is a whole other conversation. Math is mathing, my friend. The math math's for us, especially when it's about freedom. We will be your freaking evangelists forever about time and money and making sure you are doing a personalized equation of that and not responding to pressure from an external source or this like never ending pressure to scale, which I just don't think is everybody's vision or everybody's version of freedom. Stick with us, my friends. We'll keep it real. Simple. We'll keep it simple. Thanks for the prompts. This was awesome. Yeah, this is great.
Starting point is 01:15:40 I think that's the pod the pod that's the pod bye

There aren't comments yet for this episode. Click on any sentence in the transcript to leave a comment.