the bossbabe podcast - 415: CEO Mama: Redefining Chaos + Reframing How You Approach Goals with Jacki Carr

Episode Date: September 7, 2024

Join Lindsay for another CEO Mama episode with one of her dear friends, Jacki Carr! Jacki’s a guide, speaker, writer, and coach and today they sat down to talk about all things chaos + how it impacts our day-to-day lives. This interview shares really powerful questions on navigating life in the unpredictable moments, learning to let go of control, how to embrace chaos, and better understand how all these things can serve you as a mama and entrepreneur. Oh, and if you’re into goal setting, you’ll want to tune in to hear the unique perspective that Jacki offers around leaning into dynamic goals versus rigid ones. Press play and let’s dive in!  TIMESTAMPS 6:40 - Meet Jacki Carr 8:30 - Motherhood Is Dynamic 10:10 - Connecting With Other Mothers 17:00 - Chaos + Control 26:00 - Goal Setting + Letting Go of Rigidness 41:20 - Finding Community 53:50 - Appreciation 01:06:00 - How To Work With Jacki RESOURCES + LINKS Click Here to Register for our Free Training to Create a Profitable, Predictable, and Repeatable Business – even if you’re unsure of your offer, have zero followers, and get a headache from the tech – this is for you! Click here! Download Your Free Workbook: The 4-Part Framework to Create An Irresistible Offer that Sells on Repeat: https://bossbabe.com/irresistible  Get on the Waitlist for Freedom Fast Track, Our 8-week Accelerator For Businesses That Want More Buyers to Be First To Hear When We Open Doors for Enrollment: https://bossbabe.com/fft-waitlist  Join The Société: Our Exclusive Membership To Help You Build A Freedom-Based Business: https://bossbabe.com/membership  Get Our Weekly Newsletter & Get Insights From Natalie Every Single Week On All Things Strategy, Motherhood, Business Growth + More: https://programs.bossbabe.com/the-bossbabe-edit  Drop Us A Review On The Podcast + Send Us A Screenshot & We’ll Send You Natalie’s 7-Figure Operating System Completely FREE (value $1,997): https://bossbabe2.typeform.com/to/KFVPAiMy  Apply to join us in CEO Mama: https://ceomama.com/  Check out Jacki Carr’s website and see what she’s up to and how you can work with her! Another episode with Jacki from the Motherload Podcast, sharing about how she left Instagram and the evolution it offered her.  FOLLOW bossbabe: @bossbabe.inc Natalie Ellis: @iamnatalie Jacki Carr: @jackicarr

Hello, welcome back to the pod. This is Lindsay. This is another CEO Mama episode. And this is one of the very first interviews I did on Motherload with my friend Jackie Carr. And if you've never met Jackie, or followed any of her work, I highly encourage you go do that. Jackie is a goal coach. She is a mama. She has a wide breadth of experience. And she is just one of my best friends. She's an amazing human. And Jackie and I met years ago before we were both moms, we met in Denver and became friends, did a lot of events together and then became mothers around the same time and really navigated motherhood together, especially through the pandemic, which we talk about in this episode. This was recorded in

the summer of 2022. So a couple of years ago now, so you'll hear some references to the pandemic and stuff that we're now further out from. But one of the main things we cover in this episode is this feeling of chaos and relabeling chaos as something that's not necessarily bad, but is's just part of nature. You know, nature is inherently chaotic and chaos just means unpredictable, uncontrollable. Right. And Jackie and I talk a lot as friends, talked a lot as friends before we recorded this episode about how chaotic it felt during the pandemic and in the early days of motherhood, regardless of pandemic, to be trying to do all of the things without being able to predict or control what was

happening in the environment around us. And so I really like this part of the conversation in this episode because I think it helps neutralize those days as a mother and an entrepreneur and a partner and all the things that we're trying to manage as part of our one identity, on the days that it feels out of control or unpredictable, that that's okay. Like that's nature's natural state chaos. It's not bad. It's interesting. And if you're curious about it and you're open to it and you're exploring it, it's something that we have the capacity to handle. So we have a long conversation about that. And then we go into vision and goals and how, you know, rigid goal setting can be something that felt motivating prior to motherhood that now maybe feels a little

bit constricting or we have resistance to. And Jackie is a goal coach, so she has incredible wisdom on that. So that's a really important part of this episode to soak up her wisdom on vision and goal setting and how that framing can be so powerful, but also is something as a mother where maybe there's new ways of integrating it or new ways of setting goals that aren't so rigid. And then we have this beautiful conversation about the ands in life, you know, and instead of saying, I want to do this, but it's the reframe of I want to do this and this obstacle exists or and I have this challenge or and here's the reasons why I think I can't, you know, and helping our brains add a little bit of possibility into the circumstances

that we encounter every day. And this is for everyone, not just mothers. But one of those things that Jackie is so good at is giving language to the mindset obstacles that we encounter as women, but especially as mothers. And so she had some incredible insights here. And then we have this longer conversation at the end around community and friendship and culture and meaning and like being a mother in modern times and how to develop friends and community in times when, you know, we live in turbulent cultural times and there's big elections coming and, and a lot of different viewpoints, right. And, and being a mother can be one of these things that is controversial, even though it's so universal, you know, and, and so her and I talk about finding friends and finding people that, um, have similar belief systems to you and, and how your belief systems shape your

children and how we want to be good stewards of our children in this next generation. And we want to understand our personal belief systems and we want to imbue our children with our belief systems. But we also have to be open to disagreement and we have to be open to other perspectives and that part of being good stewards of children and being good mothers in general is being able to see perspectives that aren't our current belief systems and try things on and understand what is truly our truth, our belief, and what is not for us and not for our family. And so we have this beautiful conversation about friendship and community and finding community as a mother and, you know, shedding layers of connections and people that, you know,

maybe were aligned with us before we became mothers or, you know, when we were in a different season of life or business and that now aren't such a good fit and then finding our new people and how that is constantly evolving. So anyway, this episode is one of my favorites. It was one of my first interviews. So it's also like just a study in podcasting. I definitely listening back to it. I'm like, oh, man, I got so much better over the years of doing interviews. I got I feel like I got better at listening more and asking more questions. So also just like the self critique is interesting for me. But I there's also a second just so that you know, too, as you're listening, if you want more from Jackie, there's a second

interview that Jackie did about a year later on Motherlode. You can go to the Motherlode podcast and find it. Jackie left Instagram for I think it was over six months. And the interview I did was right after that time. And so she was talking about why she was leaving Instagram, her thought process around that. Her and her family also did a big cross-country move. And so they talk about leaving Colorado, moving to Maine, and just like changing, shifting everything in her life. She took her business offline, like a lot of life change and how she was integrating and processing that as a mother.

So if you're someone who loves this episode, loves Jackie's insights, you can go find that other episode and listen to her speak again on change and taking her business offline and all of that. And then, of course, you can go follow Jackie. She's at Jackie Carr. She'll be tagged in the show notes too. But she's an incredible mother, an incredible mentor, an incredible friend of mine, and I think her wisdom

is super valuable. So I hope you enjoy this episode. Hello, and welcome back to the show. Today's interview is with the one and only Jackie Carr. Jackie's a dear friend of mine. She's a goal coach, a writer, a speaker, and most importantly, a mother. Jackie has three daughters. She works one-on-one with clients on alignment of core values, mission, and goals. We talked through a lot of that stuff today. Jackie has spoken for and worked with companies like Lululemon, Patagonia, MindBody on everything from culture to vision and goal setting. And she reads a lot.

She's got a whole community around learning and connection, and it has a book club. So I am so excited to bring you this episode with my dear friend, Jackie Carr. All right, welcome back to today's episode. I am here today with one of my best friends and most amazing people on the planet, I believe, Jackie Carr. If you've followed me for any amount of time, you've heard me mention Jackie and the impact she's had on my life. And Jackie is just home from a cross-country road trip in an RV with her husband and their three daughters. So I'm sure we're going to have a really great conversation about the motherlode. Welcome, Jackie. Oh my gosh, Lins. I've been like counting down days for this. Even when you had your old podcast, we were like going to do one. And I'm so excited to be talking to you in this way,

in this goal you've created. I know you've gone through many evolutions to get right here. And like you said, I'm honored. Many, many, many. Part of the many journeys we've been on together. Yeah. When I think of you and motherhood, one of the very first things I remember is when you first had Evie, Evergreen. Evie is Jackie's oldest daughter. And you said to me, I was like, okay, first impressions of motherhood. And you're like, girl, it is dynamic. And I was like, wow, what a word, you know, because I think a lot of people are like, it's so beautiful. It's so great. And it is those things. But you said dynamic. And I was like, ooh, that's a great, like, kind of ambiguous word. So before we jump in too far,

tell us about your children and your current mother load, if you will. Holy moly. Well, I have a six-year-old, a four-year-old, and a four-month-old. So I've got a load of kids, a load of daughters. And I am an entrepreneur. And I've been an entrepreneur through my entire motherhood journey. So it wasn't anything that came later. I was actually owning my own business when I had my first child, which was very dynamic, like we're talking about because you're the boss. And so the world you want to live in, you have to create. Maternity leave, you have to create it. So that's been really interesting. I'd say this third try, I've really changed the way I'm showing up in motherhood and work more so than I definitely do with my first. The second was, I think, chaos. And so now trying it a third new way. And it's been really cool to have so many opportunities to try on different

ways of being a mother, period. No adjective in front. And just how the world has changed from when you had Evie and the opportunities that you had as an entrepreneur and the way that you could structure your business then to today with Freya coming off of COVID and what exists today in terms of what you love to do

and the opportunities that exist in that space. Maybe that's a great place to start is you're such an amazing speaker and you've led huge groups of mothers through some of these conversations. And I wonder where you are today feeling, you know, how are you connecting to them and your own desire to help other mothers in a world that right now, I guess speaking is coming back, I feel like, but isn't necessarily the most prevalent way you can reach people, especially the way you used to. Yeah, it's changed a lot. The field of work, the field of motherhood, it's all changed, to be honest, like you said. I would say the way that I'm really listening and connecting with other mothers is through

curiosity. And that starts with curiosity in myself. How do I want to be at work right now? Where are my children? And is that supporting them in the best way, school, daycare, whatever that may be. So I find I'm connecting more with other women and mothers through questions versus me having all the answers and being an expert. Does that make sense? Like this continuation of collaboration of all my selves. So I'm talking about like my inner selves, Jackie, when she was 12, 18, when we met for tacos before we had kids, Jackie with her second kid, third kid.

And then of course, collaborating with other people who've gone before me, who've done it well. I love Ruth Bader Ginsburg and Brene. They're some of my role models how they do it how they speak about it and I find that asking myself where do I want to be who do I want to be talking to who do I want around my children who don't around me that influence my energy that then influence the energy I bring to my kids through those questions and then of course playing with my vision work of what I want the world to look like for myself, for women, for children, for humanity in a million years. That I think is a connector in that vulnerability where I think, you know, a while ago I used to wait and have like a three step question to journal about, or this is what I did that worked. I think that's great too. And I'll still do that because I think it's powerful. And right now I'm in a bit of inner chaos and I don't

think it's a bad thing. I don't either. And I wonder what I'm thinking as you're talking is, how has your understanding of the identity shift? because like you said, you were successful entrepreneurial previous to having children. So with each child and then the timing of your children, going through a huge pandemic shift that we've had, where are you at with your identity in terms of who you are and what you want and how you see the world with each child and kind of where you've landed today. You touched on it saying like inner chaos and knowing you, I know what that means, but I wonder if you've become more or less sure of your identity with each child and then how did global pandemic and all these crazy things over the last few years influence how you feel currently?

The desire to be certain and the desire to be sure, I don't know if that's available to me right now. And I think that actually has allowed a lot of freedom and chaos. chaos being trying on new things, new languages, trying on giving less fucks, to be honest. Like my identity now in this moment is through the learnings, right, of having to show up for my kids, wake up, feed this child healthy food, being me, I'm breastfeeding Freya. And do I have the awareness of where my marriage is, my relationship with Chris? We are co-parents, obviously married and lovers. And I think sometimes that I've experienced that can go astray. My first child, I forgot about Chris for like six months and he's like, knock, knock, where do I land in this situation? So it was such a huge aha, where my career and becoming a mother took all my energy and I forgot about my marriage. And so that was my first child. So, you know, that learning now, like my energy right now is so family focused. I know that's why we took the trip. We did, we RV'd for 43 days because our family dynamic had changed. Chris

and I had changed. And how better to meet ourselves and change than in a tiny 20 foot trailer with seven beings. I know you mentioned the three kids, but our two dogs came too. And it was really neat. Like I know a lot of people looked at me like I was absolutely crazy, which I love as an Aquarius. I'm one of those people. That fits my persona. Knowing you, I knew it would work and that it would be beautiful and there'd be an amazing story and I can't wait to hear it.

And also watching it unfold on Instagram, I was like, holy moly, that's an adventure. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And I think that's where I'm at, Linz, is like, can I adventure into this new identity of being a mother of three, of being a beloved partner and wife? I'll be honest with you, and you probably feel this, I'm not the greatest friend right now because it's like third or fourth on the list. And I don't think that's a bad thing. I've told some of my friends that. I went through grief a couple of years ago too,

and was also clear of like, I'm going through something over here. And I think that communication with myself is something really different than I had with my prior two children. So my identity is very honest. Yeah. It very much has clear energy storage and I really am navigating how to be my own validation system. I believe in other people validating me. I love that. I thrive in that, by the way. But at this point, the validation I need is from the three girls and my partner most right now as we go through this family change. Yeah. What's so interesting to me, I think, and I observe this in you, and I think it's a common experience right now, and it's not necessarily well understood or defined or talked about, is this, you know, you called it inner chaos, and it's this desire for control and structure and the facade, right?

And I think even, especially if you were successful prior to becoming a mother, which you were, and I was too, and I really feel this, it's like we had a way of being that we were comfortable in and structures in our life that worked in our identity and in our ego and also in our outward facing life. And maybe the first child comes along and you can kind of still work within those structures and you're adding the baby into an existing structure. And then the second comes along and you're like, well, this doesn't work. And everything kind of falls apart. At least that was the timing for me. And I think similarly for you where the second one comes and you're like, holy cow, okay, now I really have to look at the structure and evaluate if this is really what I

want anymore or if this will even work for me anymore. And then, you know, we have similar aged kids. It was like right then is when the pandemic hit and we lost a lot of the additional outward affirmation stuff, right? You're saying like, I like to be affirmed. I like to be acknowledged. And a lot of that stuff went away. And for people like us, that's our work. You know, it's the feedback we get from the people we're helping. And when that goes away, it's like the walls all come down. And I think maybe that chaos was there all along and we were just able to hide it and contain it because we had a facade and structure. And when that all comes down, you're like, oh, well, there's the man behind the curtain or the woman behind the curtain. And there is a lot of energy. I visualize it as the parts of an

atom moving around. There's always energy moving in that system and it may look stable if you're far enough away. And I guess what I'm getting at is I think that it's this beautiful conversation to have now. And the segue into the next thing I want to talk about, which is like, what if we all just acknowledge that everybody's a little chaotic, like being a mother and trying to manage motherhood and parenting and relationships and all the things we talk about in the mother load, in addition to our ambition to still be successful by the definition that we have for that and what our ego wants and what our bank account wants, you know, that is kind of chaotic and that's the nature of it. And I think you touched on it, but it's like, if we're going to steward forward the next generation and save our planet

and, you know, not fall into multiple world war numbers, 17 or whatever we're on now, like we've got to figure out how to manage what is a pretty chaotic system and make that okay to talk about and recreate structures and ask different questions and support each other differently so that it's okay to feel a little bit in the unknowing. It's okay to navigate your life with a focus on family. It's okay to redefine success and still want to make money? Could there be a different way for people like you and I who used to prescribe to a very formulaic way of making money on social media and things? Is there a new way for us to still bring the same talents and skills that we have to the market and serve perhaps our same people who have now aged with us and been through pandemic

with us and become mothers with us in a new way and still be appreciated and rewarded accordingly. You know, and that's a question I'm asking myself too. And it does lead to some of that chaotic internal feeling because it's so against the wiring I have to stay in the structure, stay in the system that works, rebuild with the strategies, you know? So it's not really necessarily a question, but it's this shared experience, I think, of it is a little chaotic and that's okay. And maybe we all just need to talk about that a little bit more. Yeah. I think you nailed it when you said it's okay to feel. And I'd add a period to that. I think sometimes when you're in a state of change or chaos or conflict, whatever it may be, especially as you start to go against the

status quo or maybe even not like the system that you're in, right? There's going to be a ripple effect, if you will. It's kind of like, of course the earthquake happens, but then there are always like the smaller quakes after and then the aftermath and the cleanup. And so I think people always pinpoint this huge experience, whether you became a mother through birth or adoption or any beautiful way you became a mother, you know, this huge earthquake takes place, but there's also like the small quakes after and the healing. And like you said, the identity change. And I was speaking with a friend last night and I asked her how she was doing. She just had birth to a beautiful baby.

And she said, I think I'm healing pretty well. And I'm obviously a little bit in front of her coming up to four to five months. And I said, I'm still healing from my first child. So, you know, this ability to not just be done. I'm healed. I'm good. And I think that I love all of these leaders in somatic therapy, which is like, you know, the science of feeling postpartum doulas. Come on. I don't even know. There were quite a few six years ago when I had evergreen, but now there's a lot. And then I look back at my mother, who was my elementary PE teacher, had my sister, and I know she was back at work within five days. My sister was in a basket with crushed velvet under her desk at work. And my mom was back in

her jeans, which is all things I had to clear. And I think this ability to feel how we're feeling is so key. And that includes y'all. I'm not even talking about the dark stuff. I'm talking about the good stuff, the joy too. During a weird, chaotic time, there still is joy and magic and kismet moments. So that's what I love about the word chaos is I think it encapsulates it all. The grief, the sadness, perhaps the loss of old versions of selves, the intro of new, the joy, the smells of the baby's head. And I mean, there's so much to be included in the word chaos that I think has a bad rap, but I'm so grappling with it and loving it. I love it because what chaos means to me is you cannot predict the future, right? Like chaos means it's not predictable. And I think the main thing that we need right now is presence. Like, yeah, Jackie, you can't predict the future. And Lindsay, you can't predict the future. And part

of where people like us go wrong or, you know, make it harder on ourselves is we're trying to future cast back to in a way of how long is it going to take for me to get back to how I used to feel or how I used to look or in control again of these aspects of my life that feel out of control, quote unquote, because I'm now a mother or, you know, when is this going to feel easier? And those questions are valid. And I think we've all asked ourselves those questions a million times. But what I love about the visual in my mind of thinking of like chaos, it's the lack of ability to predict. And the only choice you then have is to be present and to respond to what you feel. And if that's what we

take away from that acknowledgement of what chaos is, then like how beautiful is that? Because ultimately, I don't know about you, but I think where I've had the hardest and darkest times in my life have been a result of not feeling and not being present and living very much in the future and trying to steer the ship reactively to some future vision that's not happened yet or something that I'm reacting to not wanting to have happen. And we all know you're going to be wrong 100% of the time if you try to predict the future. So I love that. And I think that that's a takeaway to really sit with for a listener is like, okay, if it feels like chaos, then where are you not present? And how can you be more present with what's coming up and feel into it and answer some of those questions. Because you touched on this too, and it'd be interesting to talk about this is some of what causes that feeling of chaos is when the things you're thinking about you needing to do, you're resistant to, right? It's like, gosh, I need to get income coming in again, or I need to get my coaching relaunched, or I need to figure out this website thing. And then that feeling of like, I don't want to comes up. And that inquiry point

for an ambitious woman, you know, somebody who has this part of their identity that really wants to be outward facing and out there in the world accomplishing goals. And I know goals are a huge part of your work, you know, in those moments where maybe a goal doesn't feel good anymore, or it's changed, or the goal was based on a previous version of you that wasn't here before, you know, that no longer exists now after motherhood. I wonder if there's a way to restart in goal setting and in looking towards the future that honors the chaos of the present, you know, that honors not really knowing the answer to those questions. Yeah, this is such a great conversation around

vision and goals because the thing is goals are not a form of control. And I think that's what people think, or I think that's what I thought. If I have goals written down, I know what will happen. I know where I'm going. I'm set. Speaking of goal set. And the fact of the matter is just like you said, a lot of goals, most goals, dare I say all goals will create chaos because they're asking you to say yes, which means you have to say no to other things as well. And if you feel like the goal is older from a past version of self, that's a form of chaos too. Goals place you in a seat of awareness and reflection. And that's what I love about goals. They give you language of what you do want or no longer want. And people think that they have to have the perfect goal written,

or what if I write it down and it doesn't happen? Well, most likely because we can't tell the future. And I love what you were saying about visioning because we are able to dream, right? We're able to ask, what do I see for the future for myself, my children, my community, the world? And the thing is, you and I, Linz, can only vision from this place that we are now, the present moment and including all of the past. And so it leaves so much to question, so much to be curious about for the future. And so when we vision from this place, it really is a narrow view. But I like visioning because it removes some of the constraints of the now and allows you to say, what if, well, what if, and I believe you can have more than one vision. And when I say these things, you could have more

than one vision. Goals are going to create chaos. Some people are like, pass, I'll pass. No, thanks. And I'm like, listen, the truth is you're never not setting goals or I believe someone's setting goals for you. So the ability to feel your way around, ask what you want, write it down, perhaps in pencil, is I think one of the ways I've explored continuing to meet myself. Every time I have a child, every time I change my offerings and my services, every time Chris and I's relationship goes through an evolution, every time I lose a friend, gain a friend, my goals get to be a place of what am I saying to myself? That's a yes for me. What's no longer a yes for me? What feels sticky? What feels resistance? Because it's hard or I don't want anymore because my values changed. And vision and goals are chaos. How beautiful. How beautiful to

have this system that seems black and white when you take pen to paper, but wow, it's so not. That is a shit storm we're walking into in the best way. Right. Let's take a quick pause to talk about my new favorite all-in-one platform, Kajabi. You know I've been singing their praises lately because they have helped our business run so much smoother and with way less complexity, which I love. Not to mention our team couldn't be happier because now everything is in one place so it makes collecting data, creating pages, collecting payment, all the things so much simpler. One of our mottos at Boss Babe is simplify to amplify and Kajabi has really helped us do that this year. So of course I needed to

share it here with you. It's the perfect time of year to do a bit of spring cleaning in your business, you know, get rid of the complexity and instead really focus on getting organized and making things as smooth as possible. I definitely recommend Kajabi to all of my clients and students. So if you're listening and haven't checked out Kajabi yet, now is the perfect time to do so because they are offering Boss Babe listeners a 30-day free trial. Go to kajabi.com slash Boss Babe to claim your 30-day free trial. That's kajabi.com slash Boss Babe. As you're talking, I'm like, even thinking of goals I had, previous versions of me have had lots of goals. You know, I probably, a lot of people like us are serial goal setters, you know,

like we've set goals for a long time. And, and I even remember as a kid goal setting, you know, like I was taught that by my dad. And so there's been some version of goals in my mind, whether they were, like you said, set for me or implied parented into me, like going to college, you know, I'm like, how interesting that my dad, who's now parenting my 14 year old half brother, isn't forcing like, okay, the next step after high school is college, you know, like there's a dialogue in the home of choice there, you know? And I was like, that's interesting. Cause when I was being raised by the same father, it was like, absolutely college is the next step. No question. Like there was never a question. Right. And so I'm like, interesting that I had a goal to get into a great college was I cognizant of that choice like whole other conversation but those goals whether they're set

for you or implied or or you're really intentional about I love this idea that as we set goals as each version of ourselves it's these guide rails in our journey down the track and you might run up against one that's like oh oh, like, I don't really want to go that direction anymore. And it gives you that bump back into the middle of the track, you know, and then you go back over to the other side and you're like, oh, that one doesn't feel so good either anymore. And if you're using goals in that way, it can actually be this really amazing, like responsive system to help you in the moment where you're like, I actually don't know what I want. It's like, okay, let's look back at a previous version of ourselves and see what still resonates

and what doesn't and take a couple steps back forward up the track, you know? So I love that. And, you know, you've taught me so much about goals and vision and in the framework of talking about the mental load of motherhood, one of the things that I feel like I see a lot, and I feel this in myself, and I've heard this from clients for so long, and I imagine you have too, is when you start to weigh out all the things that you have to do as a mother and as an ambitious woman who's running a business or has a job outside the home that you're passionate about, when you start to prioritize things that have to get done and that you can put energy into, I've seen the big vision and goals, like the stretch things, the ones that make you uncomfortable that are like, wow, like someday I want to go do that

thing or I want to build this thing. Those are the ones that tend to get like I made the metaphor in a previous episode. Like it's like the captain coming on the plane, like, sorry, you guys were overweight. Hey, folks, like we got to take some bags off the airplane. I know I've done this before and I've, I've had clients do this where it's like, okay, I'm going to let go of that big goal I had for myself or that big vision for myself because my kids need me. My job needs me. My partner needs me. My family needs me. You know, the house organizational system needs me. And at the end of the day, I can't take on one more thing. And that thing that's going to go is my dream, my vision, my goal. And in this existential question of like, how does the mother load weigh on humanity? I really feel like

when women trade their big audacious goal and dream for that long list of other things in the load, we feel like maybe we're doing the right thing in the moment to help our children thrive and help our relationships survive and our work be prosperous and our family love us and all those things. But if we don't serve our vision and our goal, are we ultimately doing a disservice? And this is a big question for me. And I wonder how you feel about that because I think this is work you've been in for a while and I've witnessed it in you and you've helped me with this question too.

It's like, if we do not go after that big goal and that big audacious dream and we don't set the biggest vision for our life that we can, what's it all for anyway? Right. So one of the most important moments in my life, I was leading a vision and goals workshop when I was really young. God, I had to be like 24 or 25. My brain's still developing and I'm standing in front of all these people. And there had to be, you know, 40 people. And there were a lot of older people there. And I was like, you know what? I'm really passionate about this. I've been shadowing

my teacher for a couple of years now. I'm ready to do it. And I really do believe in being a tool-based coach. So my goal was to deliver tools that wherever people were in their journey, they could use them. And there was a woman in the back. I think she even brought a lawn chair. So we're inside. I used to work at Little Lemon. We're inside. We've moved all the clothes and everything away. So there's spandex everywhere. And people are sitting in this small store in Santa Monica. This was like before people really even knew about Little Lemon, y'all. And this woman in the back was like, listen, let me ask you a question. I'm a mother and I'm tired.

I go to work all day. My kids come home from school. They need my attention. They're doing homework and then there's bedtime. And you know what? All I want to do is take a bath and I can't take a bath. So the goal I have is to take a bath, but I'm a mother is what she said. And she goes, I either mother or I take a bath. You know, what do I do? I was like, okay, I'm not a mother. So

I can't necessarily relate to this. So I was like, what do I do? What do I do? And it was so clear to offer up a new body of language for her to try on. And so I said, you know, in my practice, what I've learned is, but is a wall and is a bridge. And the word or places us under this jurisdiction of one is better than the other. And so what I'm hearing her say is I can only have this life, not the other life. And I asked her, I said, let's try to think about ways you could take a bath and be a mother. I said, let's brainstorm that you can take a bath and be a mother. And I asked, I was like, let's all brainstorm ways she could do it. So, you know, I said, do you have a neighbor that you know, can they come watch the kids for 30 minutes,

a 30 minute bath? I mean, I had to ask her how long she soaks. That's a long soak, by the way, you're really pruney and it gets hard in there. And so we talked about like a neighbor, does she have family nearby? That was a no. But as you start to brainstorm, I mean, we had 11 ideas for her to take a bath. Could she take a bath? I mean, listen, if you really want a bath blend, you can get up at 2am and take a bath. There is a way for you to get in that bathtub. And I know you owned, you know, women and which I loved because it played so much on this language of who we are in all of our facets and hats we wear. And I wear many hats and I'll tell you what lens, I take a lot of baths, a lot of baths, more than I've ever taken as a mother. I love a bath. I read, I do a lot of things in the bathtub. And so the ability to have that woman ask that

question and now be a mother who bathes, whatever it may be, is so interesting because I get to lead by example for my children. Like I was even putting the kids to bed last night with Chris and I was like, you know what, we'll do it together. It's fine. I got the baby to sleep. And then we're sitting with the two older kids and Chris got down on the floor and he like stretched his like arms out wide and he held both kids hands. And he said, why don't you go ahead and go take your bath? And my kids are both awake and they're like, mom, you're going to go take your bath. And I was like, yeah, I'll be right. It's a pretty small house. I'll be right next door. The bath is like a wall over. And so my kids hear me doing

something for me and Chris doing something as a parent. And it was just a beautiful experience of the end. And the thing is some of those goals, those big visions, they might tweak or change or look different than you thought. Or we have to change the community and system we live in. Ask for help, move. I sold my house to make some things happen. Like there are going to be things that perhaps we didn't see in our vision cast that happens in our goals. And yet the and really allows us to continue as all versions of ourselves. Mind you, I shared with you in the beginning of this podcast, my priority right now is my children and my partner. And while I say that, Lindsay, that prioritization changes how I work. So like you said, I no longer have to fit myself into an old structure when I'm looking at who do I want to be and how do I create work and money to be able to support these energy ways, if you will. And, you know, does that look like more support in maternal health? Does that look like postpartum support? Does that look like

somatic therapy, energetic healing? And how do I stand for that for myself and for all people, all the community as something I see as a need or something that I could see would be a great change. And so it is that chaos of living in the moment so that I can ask myself, how do I do this and that and that and then this? Yeah, I love that. One of the biggest lessons that Lululemon taught me too, because I've been through a lot of their training and your lessons that you teach from them is that inquiry point of both and. It can be both and, and that doesn't necessarily mean that's an easy thing to make happen. And I want to talk about community and friendship because

you've mentioned it and I feel it too. And I think that's a huge thing. But on this point about the but and the and, if you haven't heard that vocabulary previously, I invite you to reframe those dualities that you may feel right now in that and language. Can you be a really devoted mother and wildly successful? I mean, that's the whole basis of this podcast is like, I fully believe that you can. And do I feel that way every single day? No. And is that an easy thing to make happen? No. But is it possible? And is it my goal, my vision? Absolutely. If I put a button, like I want to be wildly successful, but I'm a devoted mother, it totally changes the conversation. Then when I say I want to be wildly successful and a devoted mother.

Yeah. Right. So huge. So segwaying into this conversation about community, because you said it in what you were just talking about, where you said, you know, perhaps you have to ask more of the community to help you be able to do the ands. And then we also have talked about a season of feeling distant from friendship. And I feel like coming off of COVID and all the inner

work I've been doing and having two kids and we sold our house last year and moved to a different suburb of where we live. And in that cleansing process of 2020 and 2021, I let go of a lot of relationships with quote unquote friends and have not felt the call to rebuild a lot of friendships. And I wonder, I've been inquiring myself of this. It's like, I do wish I had a community that I could reach out to, a community of friends that, you know, get it and can have this conversation in depth with me or can come over for 30 minutes on a night that RT is traveling and I just want to take a bath. And yet the load of adding friendship on top of everything else right now for me, it's low priority. It's interesting to me because it's like we need community. And I think one of the major things that's missing for mothers and really

makes the mother load feel even heavier is a lack of community. Like we don't have the proverbial village. A lot of us don't. And yet it's hard for me to source the energy to want to go pour into that part of my life. And I wonder what your thoughts on that are and where we can go from here with that. Because it's so interesting to me that that's a huge problem I've identified, but I'm also not super motivated to fix it. Yeah. I think in 10 years, I'll have a different answer. I look forward to listening to this in a decade. We'll have teenagers by then, Jackie. Oh my God. You'll have three teenagers. No, no. I can't. I literally can't. I think it'll be cool too, though. It will be. I say that because 10 years prior, even 15 years prior, I was unraveling a lot of beliefs I had

about women friendships. At age 30, I moved to Colorado and I didn't know anyone. I didn't know anyone here and I didn't have a community. And it was really weird to make friends as an older adult, like thirties. You're not in your twenties partying. Some people, I shouldn't say everyone, but I definitely was. And so I met a lot of people and maybe you are, and I was becoming an entrepreneur. So I wasn't placed in a company with a hundred of people and meeting people all the time. And so I was navigating a lot of like, how do you even make friends? And then now we're navigating like, well, how many friends can I actually handle? Like that was a big one for me, like really recognizing like, oh, I can really honor three friendships. Three. Yeah. Maybe seven and placing

people through texts and some people are phone, whatever. And some people I talk to twice a year. Great. And I do hear you though on the village and the community, but there's a but. Maybe and. I don't know what the village feels like. Yeah. I think that's an and. So I don't necessarily know what I'm missing. I've read about it, heard about it, seen it on Instagram from a couple people. Right. But, or and, I don't, like you said, I don't think I'm missing it because I've never like, you know. Yeah, it's so interesting. What comes up for me is I think it's an and because for me it's like, and I don't really know what the village is, you know, because one of the, yeah, because one of the things that's come up in really digging into Motherload, this podcast and all the things that transpire to guide me down this path, it's like,

well, why don't we talk about this stuff more? Why does there need to be a podcast about this? Why is it so hard for people to understand from the outside or even for other mothers to appreciate about each other that this shit is immense? And it's not always sunshine and rainbows. And it's not that I want to always be in the dark space of motherhood, but there is a lot of stuff that's really fucking hard about it. And if we can't have that dialogue openly and we're going to get canceled and shamed and called out for our privilege and all these things on the village that we do have readily available to us, the social media village, then what is the village that we need? And I actually

just recorded yesterday about why I think social media has made me a better mother. And one of the reasons is community, because it is a place I can go and find the connection with people who do get it, who I presume do get it and have acknowledged how big the load is and how dynamic it is. And we can have the DMs or the virtual conversation. But those aren't the people I can call to like, hey, I really need to take a bath or I'm going to lose my shit. Could you come over for 30 minutes? And that is a really hard question. And it gets me to this existential place of humanity right now where it's like, yeah, I could name you off three or four strangers on the internet that I DM a lot with about this stuff. But I don't know my

neighbor. And I know she has two little kids because I see them outside, but I don't even know her name. So that's weird. You know, like so weird. And I don't know where we go from here as mothers. And I do see people who have huge groups of friends that are my age. It's like they have young kids. They have a big group of friends. They do stuff together. And I see that and I ask myself, do I want that? And I don't know if I do. Because it does feel like another thing, another demand on my time, another load of people who have an expectation of me.

Such an interesting question. And I don't know what the answer is to it. It's hard to be in this place of like, I want to be the and person who can be a mom and take a bath. And yet there's days where I don't have a single person I could call to support me in doing that. Metaphorically speaking, you know, obviously I could do that right now after this call because my kids are at school, but you know what we're getting at here. So not that we can, you and I can save humanity, but like, I really think this is a big part of it is this question of what does it look like

to be in community around motherhood and feel like you can choose your way through that. And it doesn't have to be another thing that's loaded onto you. And also it's a safe place to be with how you mother and what your beliefs are and what you need, you know, and how you can show up. And I think that's a huge question for me, too, is like, is this community safe for me to be who I am? Because I may not agree with everything everybody else does. And if the last couple of years have shown us anything, it's that if you don't agree,

you've been emboldened to go and cancel people or go and call people out. And I'm like, the last thing that I can handle right now is somebody calling me out on how I mother my children. Is that such a personal, you know, like, Jesus. I think you've nailed something really important because we don't all parent the same way. Right. I feel, okay, a couple of things.

One, my girlfriend messaged me actually on Instagram. We have the same birthday. I would say like we talk twice a year. She lives in Colorado. She said, listen, come over to my house and bring your children and you can go upstairs and lay down and I'll watch your kids. I said, Natalie, first of all, just the offer is so generous. I'm so grateful, but I want you to know I didn't take her up on it. And so it's interesting too, where like my sisters live nearby. I have younger sisters. Like I can take a bath once I can take back. My sister will come over. If Bailey's not working, she'll come over. I do have a couple friends that would come over. My thing is like, like you said, the energetic space and time to be like, okay, what are the

kids doing? When do I want a bath? Like, you know, sometimes the village that we saw was convenient. Nobody moved around like they do now. My grandmother at 18 started having her children, but she had all the same friends from high school next door, like next door. And so if my uncle who did this was walking around aimlessly while my mother was in the hospital with my grandpa, like getting her forehead sewed up, he made it home at age four. And of course we think about that now. I'm like, what the hell? Oh, you'd go to jail. Oh, you'd go to jail. Oh, you'd go to jail.

No, a block away. Wouldn't know who my kid is. Exactly. Oh, totally. Yeah. We live in like a different time. So I think the better question that, and it's not a better question, a different question we could ask is like, what would a village look like now?

And Lynn's, first of all, you and I are allowed to be in a season of like, wow, our time is zapped right now. And that's the season where it doesn't mean you won't want 80 friends next week because humans change. Change is the only constant. So I'm going to give us permission to just be like, wow, community feels like shaky right now. That's why I said I'll be so interested to see how I feel in 10 years, like young children, especially the age of our kids and a baby right now, they take a lot of time, but then your kids are in extracurricular and they have friends. They're spending the night at people's houses. I never did because I was scared, but I hear it's amazing when your kids are young. And if those things happen, there is more time. And so part of me is clear that I love community.

I love my community and my business, kind of like you, if that feels supportive on Instagram. I love that space. And I love the very small amount of friends that I have. And maybe I'll have more in the future. Maybe I won't. But this is what we get to, I think, stay curious about. This would be something that feels chaotic for me right now. Because here's my thing. I'm really obsessed with things being fair. So if someone like Natalie watches my kids, oh shit, I got to pay her back. And that's my demise. I miss out on generosity because I'm like,

fuck, how do I give it back? Right. Reciprocity. The second you said that, I was like, I wouldn't do that because then I'd be like, well, shit, she's going to want to drop her kids off one of these days and I'm going to have to watch five kids. And then, fuck, no, do I want to do that? But some people do. Some people do. And some people don't ever expect reciprocity. And yet, our brains are wired to believe that generosity cannot exist without reciprocity, right? That's also not true. But it's so interesting, just the layers that this stuff goes.

And that's why this mental load is so real. It's like the mental math we do when someone is so generous to offer to watch our children. There's like seven more layers of math that I do to make the final decision. And it happens instantaneously. And I say, thank you so much for the offer, but that's okay. Not tonight. Like crazy. Yeah, this is it. This is the thing. And the last thing I want to talk about with you, because you're such a leader in this space and you really live into this value that you have around being a good steward of the planet and really

conscious of how you are living your life to support generations moving forward. Not that every decision you make is super quote unquote green, that's not what I'm talking about, but it's that idea that we can't just live unconsciously on this planet. We can't live unconsciously serving our own needs always without some appreciation that we live at this tipping point right now where from here on out, if we don't change some things, like the society and the planet that our children and their children and their children inherit may not be inhabitable. And if there's any like existential threat to motherhood, it's that, right? It's like that there will be no more need for mothers

and motherhood is a moot point if the planet can't sustain life. And so, you know, and admittedly, like I'm, yes, I'm drinking from my reusable straw right now, but I consume plenty of paper towels and plenty of plastic bags having young kids. So none of us are perfect. And I drive a big SUV because I have kids and dogs and all the things. But all of that is to say, you know, where do you land on the mother's role in what's happening in our culture and society right now? And how does that weigh on your mother load in terms of spinning wheels and spending time and making decisions based on what do I want to steward forward into my own daughters and the generations to come?

You know, something that I really love, and I read this in a book that was like, why do we gender the earth? Like, why do we call the earth a mother? And I remember being like, oh, wow, that's such an interesting question. But on the flip side of it, talk about mother load, mother earth. If you could interview mother earth, that'd be amazing because there's so many relatability in the earth and the load earth carries and what earth provides. And when I think of that connectivity, the language actually works for me. At first I was like, oh shit, should we not call earth a mother? And then I was like, no, it works for me. You have to ask that y'all don't just believe what you read. You have to ask what works in your brain and your beliefs. And I say that to

myself all the time. So I'm not trying to be like mothering you. I mother myself often like, oh wait, what do I believe here? And so I do believe in connecting to nature. And just like you, Linz, I drove a big-ass truck with an RV on it and used a lot of gas this summer. Yeah. And when I think about asking my oldest kid, I was like, what was your favorite part? And she was like, wow, I just really loved that day I got to swim in a waterfall. So we found some waterfalls and they had water that you could go in. You know, she was really nervous. Like we didn't bring a swimsuit, not many people around. So she was able to take off her t-shirt. She's at a very

conscious age of naked now. And it was so beautiful. I have videos of her. I didn't post them because, you know, honoring her, her nakedness and privacy like she wanted. But I was like, wow, like her seeing and experiencing nature gives her the ability to then ask, do I want this to exist? Do I want to take care of this water? Do I want to take care of this watering hole? We used to hike behind our old house and I would hear her talk to the trees. Hello tree, I love you. And she would tell me that the trees talked back and they said, I love you too, or whatever she said, they would say her imagination was wild in the best way. And I think that even for myself,

like I watch her talk to the trees and then I try it and I don't hear anything, like, you know, Santa style. And that connectivity to what is natural and to the earth, I think can be restored. And I'm reading Braiding Sweetgrass next month again, because it had such an impact on me around reverence. Speaking of reciprocity, speaking of respect for the earth and how we lead by example and ask questions. And here's the big one. Admit our mistakes. Yes.

Our generation and generations before us have made numerous mistakes. And we will have to answer to those and make changes and invest in places that we believe. And plant trees where there aren't any, wherever it may be. And I think that's where I'm starting is how am I connected with nature? I have a deep desire to have a garden. I was gone this summer, so I didn't have one. We tried to, or not me, Chris tried to plant these sweet potatoes. Oh my God, we came back to these like shriveled pods. And I was like, wow, that's hilarious. Is this a sign? But I think the reconnection, the remembering, you know, I'm reading Sweetgrass because it's really so much about indigenous culture and their relationship they had and what we can learn now still.

And that's the way I'm doing it, Linz. I read an article about someone who's doing it through technology. So it's going to be through whatever way aligns your values and brings you joy. And so a garden, going to see beautiful spaces and experiences, asking how we feel in the shade of a tree in the ocean, that simple connectivity, I think can be so gargantuan when we live right now in a world that's changing so quickly because of screens and the internet, I think

that's a bold rebellion. And so I'm going to continue to get outside, continue to chase waterfalls, or I'll talk to the trees. Maybe they'll talk back one day. I mean, if I do enough mushrooms, they might. Right, right. You'll have to come back and we can talk about microdosing. What's so interesting is that chaos conversation we had earlier, like you want to know the most freaking chaotic thing that exists in our consciousness, Earth, you know, that we can tangibly understand, like obviously the ways that we can see it with our own eyes, and then you talk in the way you're talking of like, and the way to be reverent of that and to live within the chaos of things we can't control is to be present and to sit there with the tree and to listen and to appreciate. And so what I love about what you said and how I feel is

in my identity as a mother, I do feel more tapped into reverence. And it comes up in so many different ways. It comes up in nature and really looking at earth as a mother and going like, God, she holds all of us so gracefully. And are we doing our part to appreciate and be reciprocal with that love and care that she takes on for us? And it's also this feeling of like, in my own appreciation of motherhood, and I look at other mothers, you know, and am I, for the same reverence that I want to have for Mother Earth, am I reverent of other mothers around me? You know, it's like every single time I see a birth story on Instagram, even people I don't know, I tear up. And I'm like, God, another mother was born. Another mother was

created. And there's more and more of that energy. And whether you had the baby, like you mentioned earlier, I'm a big proponent of motherhood is not just the physical act of giving birth. It's taking on the responsibility of guiding another soul through their life. And that comes with this reverence. I don't think you can deny that when you step into mother nature and you really sit, you realize that that is exactly the energy of the world we live on. And whether you gender it or not, it's like, okay, whatever you want to call it, it is that same feeling that I look at when I look at you and I'm like, she's another mother. I have so much reverence for you as a mother, no matter what your experience is and no matter how you parent. And I think that's the last thing to say here is on all of these points, one of the fears that still comes up for me is we're moving into an era where you can't be reverent for someone unless you totally agree with them. I strongly disagree with that. And I am so sad and worried for motherhood if we cannot

get to a point in our culture where I can stand next to you having different political beliefs and different parenting structures and a different relationship system and still have deep reverence for you as a mother. And I don't know that I want to live in a world where that's not okay. And I worry that we're headed down that path. And I think everything we've talked about today comes down to that. It's like the future of motherhood really is in the hands of us today who are mothers to steer the ship towards continuing to be reverent of the experience of the mother in all of its light and darkness, or to continue down this path of polarity and saying, I will not have

reverence for you or your experience unless I totally agree with what you do. And to me, that's the biggest disservice we can do to motherhood because it is such a deep and multifaceted and dynamic experience for each individual. So that's your key to community. Like that's it, right? If you want to ask how we build a village and how you have time for friends or where you give your energy, this is it. It's how nature does it. It's through reverence and respect, period. Like if you and I go out for the rest of today, I'm on an Instagram cleanse right now, but you're on Instagram or if I'm in a grocery store, I'm gonna take my kids on a hike.

If we go out today with the lens of reverence and respect, we could just even pause, like, of course for mothers, but for all people. And I even talked about this this morning, I'm like like, oh wow, you're doing it that way. And that's amazing for you. Beautiful. And listen, sometimes when we say that, it might not be climate change aligned. It might not be la la la la. But this world, I hear you on like disagreement, not being able to coexist, but damn, if people don't take care of themselves and don't know what matters to them, those conversations can't even happen anyways, because they're going to be so fake and surface level. And so the ability to

have reverence for other people's values and your own is, I believe, where the village can be created now. And it doesn't have to be our friendships like we had in our 20s where you called someone every day or you went out every night. Friendships as you evolve have to be redefined, whether you're a mother or a full-time career person or a social worker. I mean, we'd go all day on the different identities. There will be ebbs and flows. And like I said, seasons, but this village, you know, that's a key is how nature does community and collective. I mean,

those trees have pulled all their water in, in the winter, have dropped all the leaves, and they are connected underneath the soil with mycelium fungi. And they're talking still, but they're pretty chill, literally, but they're also in their own protection. And then they spring, and then they bloom, and then they summer, and then they fall. And that's a human experience too. And when we can have reverence for where you are in your journey, for where I am, for how you parent, for how I parent, for what I believe, that's what nature's already doing. Earth is going to be fine.

It'll have a little drama while we're here, but earth isn't going anywhere. We are. And so it is that reverence and respect to continue and to stay in this place that we have been gifted, if you will. And so that's it for me, what you just said. Like the reverence is the key to community and that's being able to see and respect. And even for you and I to say, I'll go take that bath. You can watch my kids for 30 minutes. It's that. So I think that's it. I'd watch your kids. I'm going to do it. I'd watch your kids. I'd watch your kids. Yeah. Right. Even if it's like half iPad Disney Plus time, I'm totally okay with that. The world of reality that we live in. Reverence, that's the takeaway. And I think ultimately with the mother load, it all comes down to that. It's just deep reverence

for yourself and what you carry. It's deep reverence for the people around you who are under their own load, mothers and beyond, and reverence for this container that we all live within and what we can do to be the change, so to speak. So thank you so much, friend, for your time today. I know it's a busy day with lots of kids. And before we go, I know you're on an Instagram cleanse, but can you tell the people where to find you online? Yes. At Jackie Carr is on Instagram. I take breaks monthly, but I'm there. And then I'm overindulging and then I'm gone. It's very human. And then my website, I answer my emails. Hello at Jackie Carr.com. Say hi. Like literally, if y'all are to this podcast, you like something, email me or lens like this is how the online village continues in a way that's supportive. So by all means, I'd love to hear from you. And then in real life, I live in Colorado. If you're around, events are coming back, let's have fun. Thank you so much for listening to these CEO Mama episodes. I love being in this conversation with you and I hope that you'll continue to tune in. And before you go, I wanted to invite you to a

free training that Natalie is leading at the end of the month called Create a Profitable, Predictable, and Repeatable Sales Engine in Your Business. And if you are a mama balancing your ambition and your devotion, this training is for you. The frameworks that we teach in this training are the frameworks that we use internally at Boss Babe to operate. They're the frameworks that we teach in all of our programs. And they're the frameworks we talk about with all of our CEO mamas all the time. You guys, even people with big successful businesses are always working on refining their sales engines. This is the key to having a business that you can set aside and go be present with your family. So I would really love to see you at this training. You can sign up at bossbabe.com backslash training. We'll have three different days

that we're doing it. Natalie's leading it live. Again, it's bossbabe.com backslash training. I think this will be so, so valuable, especially for our mamas. And I hope to see you there.