the bossbabe podcast - 441: The Bossbabe Buyout: First-Ever Exclusive Interview with OG Bossbabe Alex Wolf

Episode Date: December 12, 2024

In this long-overdue and first-ever public conversation, Natalie sits down with Alex Wolf, the original creator of Bossbabe, to unpack the untold story of the brand that changed everything. For the first time, they share the raw truth behind the creation of Bossbabe, its explosive rise, and how a simple idea became a global movement that inspired millions of women. Together, they reveal what it took to build this iconic brand, the challenges they faced along the way, and why Alex decided to step away from the spotlight while Natalie scaled the business. This episode is packed with candid confessions, deep reflections, and insights into what really happened behind the scenes. If you think you know the story of Bossbabe, think again. This is the episode you didn’t know you were waiting for.  TIMESTAMPS 00:00 Introduction: The first conversation in seven years—why it took so long 00:43 The Bossbabe Origin Story: From dropout to visionary—how Alex turned an idea into a movement 03:13 The Birth of Bossbabe: The moment Alex realized “Bossbabe” was the next big thing 07:06 Making Money at 22: Babysitting, coding, and building digital subscriptions before it was trendy 11:32 Passing the Baton: How Natalie stepped in as CEO and took the brand global 18:23 The Acquisition Drama: Clearing the air on rumors and the truth behind Natalie taking ownership 25:19 Identity Crisis: The emotional toll of early success and stepping away from the spotlight 29:33 Cultural Impact: How Bossbabe sparked a global movement for ambitious women 41:34 Predictions for the Future: What’s next for branding, tech, and social media 54:35 Avoiding Burnout: Why selling views is a trap and building a brand is the ultimate strategy 01:01:46 Healing and Transformation: Turning pain into power—how Bossbabe became a lifeline for so many RESOURCES + LINKS Join The Société: Our Exclusive Membership To Help You Build A Freedom-Based Business. Sign Up For Our Weekly Newsletter & Get Insights From Natalie Every Single Week On All Things Strategy, Motherhood, Business Growth + More.  Learn Natalie’s Proven Method for Building a Profitable, Predictable, Freedom-Based Business and Get Back to WHY you Became an Entrepreneur in this FREE 90-Minute Training. Drop Us A Review On The Podcast + Send Us A Screenshot & We’ll Send You Natalie’s 7-Figure Operating System Completely FREE (value $1,997)  FOLLOW bossbabe: @bossbabe.inc Natalie Ellis: @iamnatalie Alex Wolf: @alexwolf 

Welcome back to the Boss Babe podcast. Okay, this episode is going to be interesting. So there has always been a lot of speculation about whether I was the one to create the Instagram account for Boss Babe in the first place. Was it someone else? How did I get involved? What is the actual story? Now, you'll hear in this episode that there has been a reason

that I have been quite quiet about the exact origins of Boss Babe as the Instagram account versus Boss Babe as the brand, the company. And that's because the person that I was initially involved in it with was private about this. But when she reached out for us to do an episode together And once and for all clear the air, I was so excited about the opportunity and to bring you the real Boss Babe story from the absolute beginning, probably one that you have never heard before. So with that, let's dive straight into the episode.

Okay. So let's dive straight into the episode. So let's dive straight into the episode. So let's dive straight into the episode. So let's dive straight into the episode. Okay, this is seven to 10 years overdue. Welcome to the podcast. Thank you for having me. I'm excited. There's so many places we get to go in this interview, but I first want to start with

what is your boss babe origin story? Well, first of all, before I go into that, I just want to say I don't think anyone has seen us in the same room together which is funny so here we are. Okay My Boss Babe origin story. Early 20s like too early like I don't know anything about life 21 22 fresh out of high school immense pressure to go to school, to go to college. Both of my parents are college educated. It was kind of like the expectation. But they weren't paying for it.

And so I was like, well, how am I going to pay for it? I don't have the money. And so I did what any millennial would do, which is Google, is college a scam? And it turns out Google said yes. And I was like, I've always been an internet girl, grew up on the internet and had like a dad who's early adopters. So I just, I knew that the internet was an avenue to make a lot of money.

So I'm like, okay, I'm not going to go to school. Maybe I'll start a business. Also I'm 21, 22 and I just want to be like famous. Like I want to be a reality star. So this is what's cooking up. And I already have a chronic social media addiction. I'm on Twitter. I would cut high school classes to just go home

and be on Twitter. And one day I signed up for a TV host seminar on how to become like a host, like a TV host. And I was living in the Bay area at the time. I took like a $2 bus to LA, one of those like mega buses that you can take with a bunch of other sad souls. I get to this, now that I look at it,

it was like a super tacky seminar, but like, I'm so excited. She has pictures of her and Khloe Kardashian on the wall. I'm like, this is it, I'm gonna be a star. It's all about how to get on TV, if you can believe that. So at this time, I'm like, how do I get on TV? I'm watching Bad Girls Club, I'm watching MTV, BT. How do I get on the big screen?

And so this lady, she's like, hey, so if you wanna get on Ellen or if you wanna get on a big show, you have to start with social media. This was 2013 and I'm like social media, like I'm on social media all day long but I'm still, we're, none of us are picking up on the fact that everything is about to go to social media. At the time social media is still just for internet kids and just like kids. So I'm like okay she was like yeah I have a client who she just started posting about relatable things of being a mom and now she's getting invited on Ellen and this and that and I'm like relatable

things I'm like what's relatable for me and it was that moment. I said well what's what's happening right now and I said girls are not gonna want to change how they dress to be taken seriously in a professional setting. Like millennial women are coming into the workforce, we're coming out of college, we're coming you know into professional settings and I know we're gonna want to keep the pink hair and the bright lipstick because that's what we were wearing at that time and I was like that's it it's boss babe. So before I even got home, I'm in the bus, like posting quotes, just motivational quotes,

and the account started growing, and then like that's kind of where, you know, the rest was history. But it wasn't motivational quotes. It was the start of what is now, what everyone copies to be viral. Because motivational quotes at the time, I talk about this, it was men in suits.

And it was like very professional quotes and they were about motivating, you know, get up, do the thing. Your quotes were never that. Your quotes were sassy, they were tongue in cheek. And the way I always describe it, and it's like the best way to go viral, which we know now, you couldn't have known this back yet,

maybe you did. When someone shares a post like that They're basically saying this is what I want to say without saying it and that's what you were doing So how did you even think to do that? I was tapped into the zeitgeist and that's that's just been something that's My thing like I just you're right in the sense that they weren't just dry motivational guy quotes, which still go around. And that's another thing I do say too,

is like there were motivational accounts, but they all had lions and Lamborghinis, and none of them had lipstick and heels. And so the quotes were definitely, you know, they were bossy, they were sassyassy and they weren't just like pure business. It was like make each hair flip fabulous, you know, or like stress doesn't go with my outfit. So I see what you mean with that.

And no one was doing that at the time. So you just thought I'm gonna just try this? Yeah. And how quickly until you notice, so you start at bosswave.inc? Yeah. And how quickly until you start to see some traction? That's a good question. So I remember it was a hundred followers the first day, 200 followers the second day, and so on and so forth. And I remember thinking when it got to 500 I remember like I cannot believe there are 500 women who feel like this. And I just

kept going. And you know, another thing I think people don't realize is Instagram was a whole different place in 2013. So getting 100 followers in a day, I mean, it's still hard to grow now, but I don't know. It was just, there was something about how highly engaged the community was and the page was at that time that like everyone felt it was like a spitfire

Page and so then as it started growing the movement started growing Yeah, like there were fanatics. We were all fanatics like it wasn't just like like nowadays. There's how many? inspirational pink boss quotes for women Oh, yeah, like I mean it's like countless, but at the time there wasn't any. And so yeah the girls were reposting and just really like clinging to this identity was giving them purpose. There are so many women who follow me today that have like surpassed the million mark that at the time were just like young girls. And like they look at me and they're

like oh my god like you know I remember I wouldn't be here if it wasn't for some of those quotes and it's just kind of crazy to see how influential it was on so many like successful women today. And when did you start to feel like this is a movement that I really want to lean into and make into something. So at the time I was doing a combination of social media freelancing and babysitting. And I remember just, I think again, what a lot of people don't realize is social media was not a thing. So even offering like social media marketing services for a company, you had to explain why it would be valuable. And there was just so much culture clashing, age clashing,

and now how we have the young Gen Z-er who just gets TikTok or whatever, that was me. It was like, oh, she just gets Twitter. I don't know, just hand her the phone and she'll help the company grow. But I was also babysitting at the time, and I think, I just remember Car Rides Home where I would be blasting Beyonce's self-titled album which came out, that album and Bossy would go hand in hand. And I don't know, I just felt I was in it with everyone. So I think

that's what made it just such an emotionally strong brand. And when did you start to make money from it? That's another good question. Okay so I'll never forget this. So the baby's asleep and I have some time to think about how am I gonna make money from this brand. People are already inundating the DMs and how to where's the t-shirt? Where's the mug? Like I'm like I'm 22 like hold on and I'm like, it's crazy to me even even at that age I'm like, I can't I'm not gonna just do t-shirts because I'm like I need recurring revenue. This is what I'm thinking mind you I don't even think New York Times had like a digital Subscription yet or like was really pushing that like digital subscriptions were not a thing But I think it was because I was exposed to just the internet.

I was just like because at first I was like well maybe I can ship something monthly and then I was like that's gonna be too much work. I'm like I can give these girls value by giving them a digital monthly goodie basically and at the time the page had only 30,000 followers and I'm like, oh I'm rich like I can do anything with this if I even just get 1% and so I would say it was about six-ish months in that I built the first website from scratch no Canva no whatever a million softwares they have now. Like I'm literally coding in membership features. Like there's no membership software.

Yeah. Oh, I remember this. Theboswave.me site. Yeah. I remember this. I'm talking to developers at 1 a.m. from like freelancer at the time. I don't think there was like Upwork or maybe freelancer Upwork or something like that. How do I fix this?

And like, but we got a crank in and we had, we started something. It's so fascinating going back to that time too. Cause I was just talking to my team the other day when we were talking about this episode. And it's so interesting because a lot of people now when they start these quote pages, you'll see that no matter what design we put

on the bossway page, they're gonna copy it and they like go so far beyond to copy it and it's like extravagant and they bring in designers. This whole brand was built off of remember Wordswag? Wordswag and just... Shout out to Wordswag, they follow me on Instagram. Do they? And figuring it out on the back end like there was like you say there was no Canva, Photoshop was available, but it wasn't like, you could just YouTube how to use Photoshop. Like this was, this was such a different time, which yes, only 10 years ago, 10 years ago in tech

is a long time ago. I remember, okay, all of this. So six months in, you started bossway.me. How far between starting that and meeting me was it? Did you meet me through me coming through one of your courses? Probably. Cause you had BossWave.me

but you also had Millennial Rich Girl. Yeah. And I think I was in both. Is that how we met? Probably. Yeah, because I remember that, so a few years in at this point, the brand is still bussin'. I'm meeting people.

I'm getting clout now. Now I'm getting lit. People are like, wow, that's the girl with 200k followers. I'm like, aha. Yeah, I want to say that I was keeping an eye out on who was hyper engaged because I was looking for... It was getting to the point now, I was like, okay, how can I take some of the load off of me because everything you know, everything was changing and I was starting to like grow up. Like, actually question what do I want to do in my life? Because the other thing too is like, I built this company out of survival. Like, it was really like, I don't know how I'm gonna eat. Like, how do you know, so it wasn't until a few years in that I started having the luxury of being like

who am I what am I interested in what would I be doing if I had some level of stability which is what I was able to create for myself through Boss Babe. So what I remember and I don't know if I'm have if I've got the full version of events right so you also might need to correct me so what I remember is you were very much the face, periscope came out. I remember you saying, this is going to be really big. Like you had got on it early. We were seeing those numbers. It was like, it felt like clubhouse almost.

Started getting really big. And I remember you invited me and was there for the girls and you had said, I want more faces. I don't want this to just be about me. And we all did, I think it was one periscope a week. Something like that. Yes, exactly. So growing up inspired by the Spice Girls, I always was like, I would love if there was like a girl gang, multiracial, different points of view, representing, you know, in this case, boss babe, so that, you know, whatever, I just was always inspired

by that idea. And so, yeah, I guess I forgot how much I was so bullish on Periscope. We'll see where that went. But you know, what I really was bullish on was live. Like it was the first time you could like go live in that way. And so to this day, so many of my followers found me through Periscope. And there's just something about live that just hits different when it comes to audience building. So another interesting influence that's happening at this time is I'm in the Bay and I'm dating like tech bros and just I'm in the tech scene. So I'm hanging out with people who've

raised millions for their company and it's so funny because one of the first things I realized you know they were, your company is making money. And I'm like, yours isn't. Like I didn't understand how BC worked at the time. I'm like, I get it. Like you have the t-shirt and the slides, but like, where's the money? And so it was an interesting dynamic because they took some stuff from me. I took some stuff from them. A few ideas that came to mind were one, operationalizing the business.

I had never thought of that. I'm like, yeah, like, how do I take myself out of the business so I'm above it as opposed to in it? And that was one of the strategies to do that, as well as just thinking about an acquisition and getting out of it. So that was why I decided to do that strategy with Periscope. And then how did that go from us five doing Periscope to you eventually asking me to be CEO? Yeah, so you were such an amazing leader in that group and the content was on point. I felt like the engagement was high. And I think another thing people don't realize about us is like, you're the hard worker.

I'm more just like, I made the brand, bye. I'm way more of a like investor type chairman, if you will. Like, I'm not necessarily going in there and solving problems. You're coming to me like, hey, I really think this would be cool and that would be cool. I was a hustler. Yes, you still are.

And that was very apparent. And you were also coming up. And so I'm thinking this might be a great fit. I have this great platform. She can get all this exposure. She can become an authority. And so I proposed the idea, like how would you like to be on boarded as CEO? And that was how that relationship started. It was amazing.

And I think in the beginning there was never like, let's do it for salary. Let's have a contract formal. It was like, come on board. You can take a profit share, run with it and report in to me. And I was like, okay. That part. Was I 23, 24? We're like five, like let's just make this money and...

Totally. We were both so young. Was it, I think it was 2016. No. Yeah. Yeah, 2016. 2016. And I remember, I literally remember where I was when I got the text because I absolutely loved the account and I had started my own called the confidential and I was doing very similar in my own vibe, but doing very similar that viral style and I was so Bullish on the internet world. I was like digital marketing I want to learn everything I could about it and I remember when you got this text I just felt like I manifested this like I didn't I didn't I. I was like, digital marketing, I wanna learn everything I could about it. And I remember when you got this text, I just felt like I manifested this.

Like I didn't, I mean, I was so young, I didn't need the contract, didn't need this. It was like, wait, I get paid. Yeah, I was like, I get paid as much as I work. I cannot work anyone. And I remember just like from day one, just jumping in and running with it. And it felt like you were like, yeah, bring ideas.

Like, let's and running with it and it felt like you were like yeah bring ideas like let's just run with it. Yeah I knew that I wasn't doing as much as I could with it and so what's happening in my world at the time is I'm starting to get freaked out by the internet. Like first of all like what I said about the fanatics so it went from like, yay, we're all fanatics, to like, I could sense that the movement was gonna spin out of like the original vision I had for it, because the internet is just so massive. And I could also sense, you were like, bring it on. And I was kinda like, wait, let me A,

figure out what I want from life, and I'm getting uncomfortable with how Instagram is taking over everything. Like again, I went into it thinking like, oh my god it'd be so cool to get paid through Instagram. And now I'm like trying to figure out any possible way to not get paid, not have to be on Instagram to get paid. But like, I'm seeing how people are changing.

People treat me differently because I have the Instagram cloud. Now everything's becoming about Instagram cloud. Like now it's so normal in Miami for people to be like, oh you want to bring your friends? Send the IG page. But like that was the beginning of that. Like who are you? And it doesn't matter who you are, who are you on IG? And I was like, is anyone gonna talk about how like weird this is? And like, is anyone going to talk about the negative effects of social media and technology and like the way we're designing and adopting the tech? And I was like, I think I want to talk about that.

It was weird because I'm coming from pink boss land and I was a little, I was insecure. I'm young and still unsure of myself. Like, is this going to be okay to do to start talking about like essentially just tech philosophy? And how that was that for you then to release control to me? Because I've tried. I've never been able to do that. It's the best thing ever.

It's the best thing ever. And I know a lot of business owners struggle with that. And look, everyone's gonna bitch, you know, people bitch. People are like, well, you know, what about you? And don't you want to be more involved? And I was just like, I had to put my piece first. And I had to accept that even if I were to do something differently, doesn't mean she's not getting the job done.

If you were getting the job done and the numbers were coming in. So I was like, that's all I got folks. Like I'm not going to compromise myself even more, you know, to try to like make everyone else happy and like put myself last. You may have heard that I recently co-founded a brand new company Glossy, which is a skin routine you can drink. and I wanted to tell you a little bit

more about it. It is incredible. It's this powdered supplement that you drink at least once a day. I'm personally a morning and afternoon kind of person and it is so good for your skin and your gut. One of the ingredients that I want to call out is Probiotic D111 so So it helps maintain a healthy gut microbiome, it supports digestion and skin barrier function, it's also really good for helping to reduce any discomfort in your stomach and bloating. I swear by glossy that's just one of the key ingredients. We also have vitamin C, magnesium, hyaluronic acid, coconut water powder, sea salt, zinc. It really comes from all angles to support you inside out.

I love it in a morning. I drop in and hydrogen tablet just to really boost things. And then in the afternoon, I normally add some B vitamins. It makes me feel absolutely amazing and I really feel the difference in my gut specifically. I'm more regular. I'm less bloated. I just really feel the difference in my gut specifically. I'm more regular, I'm less bloated. I just really feel a difference. So if you're interested, go to getglossy.com,

that's G-L-O-C-I.com and use the code BOSSBABE and you'll get a huge discount off your order. And then I remember again, where I was when the acquisition conversation started. Do you remember that for you where I was? I just like when those conversations started Yeah, uh-huh. And how did you feel with that started to be put on the table? Was that something that you'd always thought about because for me when I first said yes to this it was never in my mind

But then eventually as I started doing it, I really I was so ambitious and I thought you know what? I really feel like I could do something. You're like, she's not doing shit. I'm I was so ambitious and I thought you know what I really feel like I could do something. You're like she's not doing shit I'm gonna take this company over. No that's that's how I tell the story. Yeah. I'm like I'm like I'm literally just an absentee owner pretty much at this point. I'm not really doing anything. I'm not involved and I'm also building my personal brand in this direction of talking about economics and like I needed a pink detox. She's back. You ever you ever need to go through one of those? I don't know.

I sometimes, this is a whole thing, but sometimes I um I'll pink myself out. But you know what that those eras came from feeling like there needs to be some sort of shame affiliated with pink because pink represents, you know, just you're honoring your girly girl self, your hyper feminine self, and how if you ever want to go anywhere in life, you better get rid of all that shit. And so because Boss Baby was like kind of spiraling out of control and the movement, I'll say not the business, the movement, I was like, I didnaling out of control and the movement I'll say not the business the movement I was like I didn't want anything pink on my page for like five days and I didn't I didn't even want

people to put the two and two together because I was afraid that they wouldn't like they'd be like oh you're just the boss babe girl which now I'm like yeah that's freaking iconic but you know at the time, I remember that I remember when you were really starting your personal brand. And I remember monochrome. I remember it being so different. Yeah. And then I feel like you did get quite private. Was that intentional? Are you talking about like recently when I just disappeared? No, I mean, even back then, I feel like,

I feel like I was kind of just like, I'm gonna share every single detail. I'm like, I remember you, maybe I had a different staff, I remember you being very bounded around social. Like, even though we were in business together, I didn't really know tons about you. You were very private with us, but then also with Instagram.

It was always like this elusiveness about you. Like, what does she do? Like, what is she working on? I feel like artists like to just go in that mode of like, you know, I have nothing to say and that says it all. And I go through those phases because sometimes I do really feel like that. But yeah, I guess it was my way of like coping with and dealing with like the identity crisis that I've been

having for seven years. That makes sense okay so then acquisition let's talk about it because a lot of people think that I stole the company from you. First of all anyone who knows me knows that I would never let anyone steal my company from me. It's first of all, can anyone even do that? I mean, people have tried to- Oh, trust me, there's some rumors out there about me too. I don't think it's possible to do something like that. So let's clear the air because one thing about me is I'm not like a pushover.

Like how would how would that even happen? Like people think like one day I was just like, you know, like you just stole the account or just logged you out. Alex, I logged you out. I changed the password. I hacked your email and I never looked back. Everyone needs to know that Natalie got me a huge check. Okay, Natalie paid me to get out and I wanted to get out. That's part of how the arrangement worked. So yeah. That check. Oh my God. I had to borrow money. We had to go on an agreement where I was going to pay you monthly. I remember being confident.

Let's first talk about the deal. Yeah. So we were both 24, 25, and we were having phone calls. And it was, I've done a lot of business deals since then. This was easy. In a sense of, there was so much respect. I feel like I had so much respect for you and you had so much respect for me. We had so much respect for the brand. Our conversations were just, here's what I think is fair.

Here's what I feel like I could maybe do. And we just got to a point where we both was like, okay. I mean, here's why I think it was easy. First of all, it's always easier to sell a business when the seller wants out. And so I was a distressed owner. Usually a distressed owner is like a 55 year old retired person who's been doing it for 30 years

and doesn't wanna see the business again. But I was, you know, 24 year old who got a lot of success really early and just never even had a chance to like think. And so if I'm not mistaken, I want to say it was like your idea, like you planted the seed. Because again, the way I see it is like you're doing all the work and you're growing it and you're like wait I should probably have some equity in this mother of a girl. And I'm like you're right and I don't really have any plans for this and I know whatever plans you have are bigger and I want to go be an artist in the corner over here in Brooklyn and Prospect Park like how much you got let's work it out.

And so I think that's why it was a great deal. Yeah, so for me, I felt really confident in where I want to take the brand, but I had no money. I had absolutely no money. And so I remember I lent some money from Steven. We'd agreed on a payment plan. And then I brought in a co-founder to help me do it, which in hindsight also, I wish I'd also,

not to say that I'm so grateful in the way that things unfolded, but I wish I knew that there were different options for buying a business. I didn't know you could get financing. I didn't know that there were other options for buying a business. It was almost like, oh, you can only pay what you can afford,

or you go in debt or whatever it was, or you have to give equity up. Like I just didn't fully understand. I'm sure you didn't either, but that was a big learning for me. The fact that we did that before 25 is insane. It's insane. It's insane.

That is insane. What did getting money like that at that age feel like? Great. Well, you know know it was the beginning of my like well I guess I should develop a personal life because the thing about me I've always been the weird shy awkward kid just a lot of like needing to heal like social anxiety and so here I am it's funny I finished the final draft of my book the same week that the deal went through and one of the thoughts I had was like, oh my God,

writing that book was harder than this deal. But then the second thought I had is like, this is the biggest check I've ever gotten, I have no one to call to like party with and hang out with. I'm like, I guess this is the part where I should make friends. And so, I don't know, it it was like it was bittersweet. It's just an intense

and extreme experience. And you know how they say like I wouldn't wish early success on people. I get why people say that. I'm happy I had that early success but I get why because it's almost like you didn't get a chance really to earn it in the same way or appreciate perseverance in the same way. And that's that's how the Internet is. It's just so fast. It just happens so fast. So here we are now.

Yeah, getting that kind of money at that age to it must have just been like, holy shit. Who am I? What do I do now? And even for me when I stepped away and I I was gonna sell my half of the company to Danielle, and that was all going through first, say six months or whatever, in that six months I had a full identity crisis. I was like, who am I without Boss Babe?

Did you have any of that? Yeah, like it felt like a ghost I couldn't get rid of. Like I'd be like, hi, I'm Alex. I'm into economics and philosophy. And they're like, Boss Babe! And I'm like economics and philosophy. And they're like, boss, babe. And I'm like, oh. And you know what's so funny, Naili? I got to a point where I really did successfully

stop being associated with it. I know. I know. Your brand couldn't have looked more different. I feel like you barely even mentioned it on your website. You were very private. And I never told your story. I never tried to tell your story, I never tried to tell your story

and never tried to talk about. Yeah, I think that's why people feel like you erased me, but that's because I wanted to be erased. And Natalie knew that more than anyone and you caught a lot of flack for that. And so shout out to you for being strong through that. We can talk about the video, but I remember when that video went live and

everyone was sending me it and everything that I had wanted to like respond. And I remember just thinking I'm not responding to something like that. If anyone's going to respond, I think it should be you. And I don't think that should be forced upon you to do that. Like we were both so young to have videos like that come out. So for anyone that's not sure what we're talking about about a year after, I think the deal went through. There was a video when on YouTube about how I stole the company from you.

And I saw this you haven't seen the video. No, oh, there's a full video. And then it was going around Instagram. It was a whole thing. The video. I mean the narrative you can imagine it was a whole thing. The video, I mean, the narrative, you can imagine. It was this white woman stole this company from this black woman, she's a raised,

like the narrative was very strong. And I remember just being in so much fear, like I'm gonna get canceled this, but I never really wanted to come out and tell our story because I felt like this is private, this is business. Why should I have to explain or why should you have to explain yourself? I'm sorry that happened to you. Yeah, I hope that having this conversation, because yes, I agree that people are not entitled to know my literal business. And so I think that I'm happy

we're having this conversation now because it kind of clears up the air. And I just think you're a badass for being able to, I'm happy you didn't respond. And I want to say too that for anyone who thinks they're defending me, because I think that's part of it too. And it's like, no, Natalie has helped me a lot. She changed my life. I changed your life and we're happy for it. I mean, I do feel like our relationship is one of the most

meaningful that I've ever had in a sense of I wouldn't be doing this. I feel like you showed me and so many other women what was possible in early internet era, early social media. I mean I remember the course that you put, Millennial Rich Girl, that was like an audio only course because like uploading videos was so freaking hard back fricking hard back then. Like the uploads, all of that stuff. And there was no real core software either. No, no, it was just audios and like you can make a PDF to go alongside it, but it has to be a basic PDF because you can't upload a lot of things. So I do love that we're finally having this conversation.

Was there ever a part of you that regretted doing the deal? You know, I thought about that this morning and no, because one thing that I wanna make sure everyone is clear on too is that I take responsibility and I feel like there's credit due for me kind of inspiring the movement. And I see you more as like growing the company and transforming the company.

And I think they're both amazing. I really do wish that there was some quantifiable data on how much the movement inspired women to start businesses, even just have the ovaries to put pink on their branding, like, cause that just wasn't a thing. And so for me, like what really gets me inspired and my why, which I've realized this other day,

even though I've been doing it for 10 years, is inspiring women to A, be themselves, but if they happen to be like a hyper feminine, girly girl, even like a ghetto fabulous girl, which I feel like I am, that none of that should be hidden in your brand. None of that should be hidden in your professional setting, especially because I feel like what's so empowering about Boss Babe and the message behind it was like, if the competency is there, if the professionalism is there, if we can get the job done then what difference does it make that I'm doing it in platform heels and pink floor. Amen. So I think there is also some confusion that the girl boss movement was first. Yeah let's talk about that.

Who was first? You know being first is really not as glamorous as it seems because you're too early. I'm so early. Like this conversation only sounds good because it's 10 years later. Isn't that? Oh my God, that blows my mind. So here's how I see it. Girlboss was a book that was like exciting because it was a story about this young female entrepreneur, woman entrepreneur who built her empire.

But that's all it was, it was just a book. And so what happened was the way I see it is like, Bossmate was a social and cultural movement. It existed even outside just the page, the trickle effect of the other pages helped kind of like create this whole thing, that pink and black, you know, it kind of reminds me of the brat. You see how like brats, yeah, like,

I feel like that's the Gen Z version, but there is this aesthetic, Millennial Pink, like that became an official term. And I'm like, okay. I do think you created Millennial Pink. I'm like, what's happening? Let's be millennial pink. I'm like, what's happening? Let's be real about that. I remember too, do you remember when the page was checkered?

Yeah. Like no one was like experimenting with like grid aesthetic. Wait, were you the first to check that? I mean, I feel like if I say that, no one's gonna believe me, but I swear to God, I was the first one. I think you might actually be right. I mean, you started the word swag trend, you started the trend of putting a image

and then you would lower the brightness on it and then put the text over it. I think you were. I think you were. I didn't see anyone do checker before me. No, I don't think so. I think a lot of that was copied from the boss babe style. Yeah, another thing I think that's interesting

when I look back on those original memes is that I didn't even put the account I just put the hashtag and that was another thing I remember is that there was like no it was like two hashtags of like boss baby or like three or whatever and Then like over time it was like it became a million like within that first Like few years of people just hashtag Boss Babe, hashtag Boss Babe. So that's another thing I'm proud that I did because it's a sentiment again,

that I was more invested in this being like, kind of like a free movement where anyone could just take that hashtag and throw it on there, you know? And I felt like, okay, I'm making my print on the world and like my vision on the world. Yeah, I remember that. I think by 2018, there was 20 million uses of the hashtag.

Yeah, I'm curious, what is that now? It's so hard to track now because I feel like hashtags aren't what they used to be, but that was probably at the peak and that was 20 million and probably not including Twitter. And then the other story I was telling about earlier is that I don't remember if it was the trademark office or the bank But I remember getting a reaction like oh, we've never had a hashtag

Like on a credit card before I don't think I've seen a hashtag like trademark So it was definitely one of the first I that was another thing like that hashtag Represented everybody the hashtag made it it the movement and the cultural influence because that's how we could find each other, you know? And so I wanted to make sure it wasn't just Boss Babe, it was hashtag Boss Babe. Oh my god, yeah. Now for anyone listening that's probably younger than us, they're probably thinking this is all so normal, but it wasn't. Yeah. Hashtags back then weren't normal.

I mean, to own a hashtag, because you owned hashtag, it was fully trademarked. It's wild. Yeah, it's cool. Okay, I mean, there's so many more things I want to get to. So, okay, so a big question that I have for you is if you never sold it, where do you think it would be or what do you think you would have done differently?

Because I think you and I would have just run a completely different company. Yeah, I mean, it's hard to think about. So obviously, the edge that I brought to Boss Babe was like this ghetto fabulous flair. That I think is what left when you came in, which is fine, and what a lot of people missed. So I think that if I was still operating it, it would still have that. But the way I see it and I was kind of hurt because I mean, I'm telling you the emotions people have about this brand. No, I know. Trust me. Like, I know we're betrayed. People felt like I had betrayed them. And it's so funny because I was kind of like, I'm sorry to disappoint you, but I'm not gonna stay here just to make you happy.

I hope you would want that for me. But anyway, if I did have the same ambition you had and was like, you know what, I'm gonna like scale this company and grow it up. It probably would still be a digital community of sorts, but it would just have like those pieces of me in it. But the reason why I said I got sad is because people were like, oh my God, you know, where'd you go? And I'm like, I'm right here at Alex Wolf. Like I still do my

thing and I still have my swag and do what I do. So I'm like, I didn't go anywhere. Yeah. Why did you never come out and tell your story before this? You know, honestly, it was the fanaticism that was like too much for me. And when I say fanaticism, I mean like just the extremeness because I'm telling you, it did get to a point. The side of the internet people don't talk about enough is the creepy DMs you get of like, I don't know how I'm gonna survive and I don't know this.

And like you're dealing with people who are dealing with like real mental issues and so as much as I was honored that BossWave could be an inspiration for these women as a 23 year old I'm over what I can't I don't know how to respond appropriately I don't know how to help you and so that scared me again, it was an overwhelming experience to have that much kind of like what felt like control in a cultural conversation. So I'm like, what do you want from me? Yeah, and I think now or at least I have seen a bit of a change since 2020. I think now people are having a level of respect that like just because

someone has a following on Instagram and their DMS are open, doesn't mean you can tell them your life story. But back then, I don't think that boundary was established because it was very new and you would find someone on the internet that you really related to. And that was like the beginning of influences. So I think that was also quite challenging back then, cause I remember the DMS and they were intense. I feel like people finally for one saw themselves in a movement or saw themselves in a brand and almost saw this as their way out. Yeah. And they wanted that from the brand. And I remember that being quite intense. Yeah, it was just intense and I didn't want to

fuel the fire. I was just like, maybe if I just take this money and look like over here. Pretend it's not happening. Yeah. So the last seven years for you then, how has that looked? First of all, seven years sounds crazy. Crazy. So what ended up happening is I got into the tech world. I was already kind of around it and another

thing about me is like I'll think everyone is into it until I realize they're not. So I'm thinking everyone's into tech. I'm thinking everyone's thinking what I'm thinking in terms of like social media is a big deal. And so I started getting meetings at like Instagram, Snap, all the big guys and going going in there and, you know, there was an optimism like, oh, I'm gonna help you guys. But then I realized how far away they were from understanding what their own apps were. Like Instagram didn't know what a creator was.

I am not shitting you. What? No. Like I would go in there and I'd be like, okay, so do you know who this is? Do you know who that is? I'm like, these are like really popular people who are like, who have like a big stake in the cultural zeitgeist. Like how come you know who this is? Do you know who that is? I'm like, these are like really popular people who are like, who have like a big stake in the cultural zeitgeist.

Like, how come you don't know them? I'm like, what are you guys doing here? That blows my mind. Yeah, so I started to get really passionate about how do we design a more ethical, human-friendly social media place, or apps, behavior. Because the other thing that's happening that we didn't talk about is Instagram's changing.

Now they're integrating stories. Because again, when I got on Instagram, it was a happy little square app. There were no videos, it was just squares. And so the landscape is shifting beneath our feet in terms of, well, where should we be now and what kind of content should we post? And so I started doing consulting and bringing in ideas

about how to just, yeah, design more ethically intentional internet behaviors. And that's kind of like what I'm known for now. So now I'm known as like the tech philosopher, award-winning, have brought these provocative ideas to the tech space, and that's how the seven years have been. And did you feel like you were really happy to kind of leave the boss babe identity behind?

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, because I also always had the sense from you, you never had a big ego. Even when the Instagram account was taking off, like I remember once I'd moved over to America and I was kind of in and out on my student visas, you would always put me forward for the interviews,

you would put me forward for the podcasts. This was like early podcasts. Yeah, did you never have your ego involved in that? You know, I'm careful because anybody who says they don't have a big ego, run. Because they're usually the scariest ones. I do have an ego, but I felt like it was more in alignment for you to take those meetings than for me. And like I said, I'm still figuring out who am I, what do I want to be known for? And I knew for a fact that Boss Baby was

going to be a chapter and not like the main thing. So that's why I did that. I think this is great for people to hear a positive acquisition story, because I think there's just a lot of noise out there about all of this, you know, gets really challenging or you sell your company and you know, you completely have a crisis

and you don't know who you are. Like that also gets to be positive stories here. And also you don't need to raise millions of dollars to bring in someone if you want to release control of your company. There's so many ways to do this and I feel like the Silicon Valley playbook doesn't tell you that. No, yeah, no. They're still figuring out how to turn of profit over there. Yeah, no, like I said, I did take influence from that side and I will say that the tech bros did teach me to dream big. Like I would send in little pitch decks

and they'd be like, no, you should be thinking 10 times bigger and I'm like, are you really? Okay, and so that is helpful. But yeah, I've always been kind of like the free artsy person kind of floating in and around Boss Babe. I feel like that's been my my figure. But oh another thing I wanted to say is like as time would pass and it still like gives me chills to see the original ones kind of like floating around randomly like on Pinterest. Like I'll be scrolling through Pinterest like depressed. And there'll be an old Boss Babe quote. And I'm like damn I'm right.

Like they still motivate me. Which is crazy. But yeah like the who was reposting. So like when everybody was talking about Britney Spears a few years ago on her document, like her documentary came out and I went on her page and she had just posted like one of the old boss babe quotes and like when I see stuff like that I'm like oh my god like you know cuz I'm I'm a Britney fan and that's that iconic level is like knowing like you said people repost quotes because it's like I couldn't have said like this is basically what I'm trying to say and so it's just really cool as a culture like I guess Stan or whatever. It's cool to see how other women who have been so influential in culture resonate and

identify with the brand. Oh I mean, Britney, Madonna, all of the Kardashian. I didn't know Madonna. I know the Kardashians. It's on Madonna's feet. Oh that's hilarious. No, the quotes are everywhere. My favorite too is Paris Hilton.

I've been shopping some of her home care or homeware line and I'm like, okay, do I want the Boss Vape mug? I'm like, who's getting this money? Why am I not getting it? Everything she does has Boss Vape on it. I don't understand how she's doing it. I love it. I love it. It's just great. I mean, I'm going to just sit here and let her do it. Everything she does has boss move on it. I don't understand how she's doing it. I love it. I love it. It's just great. I mean, I'm gonna just sit here and let it do it. I know it's just it's worth it. Like just the idea of it. It just makes me so

happy to know that that's what's happening. And so what's next for you? Okay, so back to this conversation about how I'm like more of a chairman investor type than entrepreneur type. I got so sick of the tech space that I wanted to get off and just start investing. That looked like acquisitions. That looked like buying companies. So I decided to start a holding company and basically looking for small businesses to purchase. My goal is to be like Warren Buffett in a mini skirt.

That's what I tell people and yeah because you know I've spent the last seven years ten years predicting trends and I'm like instead of like predicting them for everyone else I might as well put this Intel into my own company and and investing and like I don't know I have visions of like okay what would what could we do if like more women had more money? What do we want to build? What kind of companies and what kind of tech would we build?

What would we be designing? And so that's what I'm really passionate about is like, how do I take the money and the wealth that could be generated through acquisitions, through a holding company, and then reinvest it in a way where women, you know, there's more women design products, you know, online and offline because that's something that just really inspires me. Like I threaded the other day, I want to say tweeted. I really can't stand how every social media platform has stolen each other's thing because they've diluted everything. Well, do we even say Tweet it now when it's X? Like, what do we say?

I X-ed. I can't handle this. They don't care about us. They just do whatever they want. You know what's so funny too is Elon had that brand name for like ever. Like he- X? Yes.

Did he? He had x.com and like, I think he tried to make it work for something else and they're like, oh we don't like it It sounds like porn and then and then finally when he did the Twitter acquisition He was like, oh perfect time to use my creepy brand name. Wait on porn. I have a story for you Okay, so wanted bossbabe.com forever. Oh, yeah, I want to hear this. Okay, so I know that was not easy Oh my god, so okay wanted bossbabe.com. I mean it was not easy. Oh my God. So, okay.

Wanted bossbabe.com. I mean, it was never available. Even when you wanted it, it was never available, never ever, right? And I'm like, who is the owner of bossbabe.com? So I would always go on these domain sites where you try and like broker the purchase and I would never hear back ever.

And I think it was 2019. Steven, my husband says to me, what do you want for your birthday? And I said, I want boss. Right. And he's a man that likes to make his wife happy. So he's like, OK, so he goes down this rabbit hole and he finds the owner of boss.com.

And it's this older woman, freaking iconic. And he gets all of the podcast next.'s got to be on the podcast next. I know. I need to know about this woman. She's a member of the society. Oh, I love it. So she likes to be quite private though. He gets her contact details and he's like trying to broker the deal through email, all

that stuff. And she says, I will do this on the phone. So he said, okay. So we called her. The first phone call lasted three hours and he heard the whole history She said in the 80s she had there She was like a total boss and she decided to call herself a boss babe and registered the domain Wow So she's the original right? So she didn't meet she didn't create a boss babe website

She never created a brand out of it. But this website hosted her own personal brand. I won't say her name because she doesn't want to be private, but it would basically just, it was like about me. I want to say I saw it. I want to say I saw it. Yeah, pictures of me, all of this. But like when we were looking for it at the time, like she had actually taken it down.

This was like, she just had this. So anyway, he calls her and they're trying to do the deal. And he said, so what's it going to take to do the deal? And she said, I don't really care about the money. I want to be paid fairly for it, but I keep getting offered huge sums of money from porn companies. And I need your word that you will never turn bossday.com into a porn website or sell it to a porn company.

And he gave his word. They agreed on amount, bought it. Like he gave it to me for my birthday, but that's how it happened. That is a good story. I feel like there needs to be a little Boss Baby Museum. I know, I know. That would be so cute.

I wonder if we like do one on the website where we do Boss Baby through the ages, the timeline and like show all the branding. We should do that, but we should also do a museum because it would be so cute for pictures. Can you do that? Because I'm tired. I might, I have a few friends I can call.

You do it and then I'll put that in. I have a few friends i can call you do it and then i'll put then i can help a few friends i can call okay great i'm just so tired i love that story that's a great story well yeah i i was trying to say that i threaded something and it was i want to say about how all the social media apps have copied each other to the point that everything's kind of diluted now. But I brought that up initially because that's another important contextual point for this story is like social media is changing. Like, oh my God, there just wasn't any,

the same way you see podcasts now or gurus now or business experts now, like so much of that was still forming at the time. And if you were in that world like you were, it already felt like, wow, this is such a formed world. We didn't know it was going to grow and grow. And I really feel like it's going to keep growing. And I'm like, oh my God, I was done with this in 2018.

Like I wasn't expecting this to expand this much. So it's just crazy to see. Yeah. I mean, I remember because I had a supplement company while I was also running Boss Boyabe with you and I was like still a student so I was still like still involved in university and I said to one of my professors I really think like of all the two companies BossBabe is the one that is gonna be the biggest and he was like oh I don't think so I don't really feel like people are gonna want to pay for a membership or courses

like that I think you should go all in on the supplement company So even then it like yes, we believed in it But the bigger outside world did not think people would pay for this and especially from young women Yeah, and that happens a lot and that's another reason why I get more passionate about investing because I Hear you know, the story of Etsy was I forget her name which makes me upset but basically when she tried to get funding it was the same you know who's gonna want to buy homemade arts and crafts? Us? What are you talking about? So like stories like that happen all the time where it's like it makes so much sense to us and I guess we just have to prove it over and

over and over again. I know like the the world changes but it doesn't change. Yeah. That's how I see it. So you've always been amazing with predictions. Can we talk about some of your predictions? Well look I feel like I don't want to get too scary but we're in a really amazing time for the simple fact that we have access to media that can access everyone. I don't know how long it was going to happen. Because when I look at things like the election, just from a media literacy perspective, we got to a point, like you said, 10 years in tech is a lot.

We got to a point where both candidates felt it was necessary to include podcasts and memes in the campaign, which is insane. So what does that tell me? Well, that tells me that, yeah, if you're not on here on a mic right now, it might be time to do so. And then I'm also kind of playing around with how I feel about like the personal brand being like the only brand and how like we're moving away from like faceless. I'm careful because I feel like yes that does make sense. I do think like especially as Gen Z starts to mature the way they took in the media was

primarily through these faces and that they might not resonate or identify with corporate entities in the same way as they need that face. But then I also see nuanced kind of artists and fashion designers getting away with leaning into that mystery as part of the play. I do think it's a minority, but I like to leave room for that nuance. It's a great time to be silly and also like have proximity to, I wanna say like hip-hop culture here

let me explain myself so I made a mini documentary in 2018 called attention for sale and it was about how I was concerned that our attention spans were shrinking this is another thing I'm noticing on bossbait and and as Instagram's taking over the world I'm like oh we can't look at each other in the eyes no one can focus we got into the internet thinking we would grow out of it as kids. We're growing into it, right? Like the idea was like the internet was like a fun thing you did as a kid and then one day you'll be a real grown-up.

Right? Well here we are. So part of what happens when the attention span shrinks is it's harder to get a conversation in the cultural zeitgeist because people are just distracted and the the appetite they've built have gone away from more serious things and into more trivial and cool things and right now what's cool is hip-hop and what's trivial is anything funny and so those things it's a good, which luckily I'm funny and I'm into hip hop. Those things give you a higher chance of having your content distributed through the algorithm,

which is like this big balance that we're all trying to figure out how to do. So those are some like trends, I guess, predictions. I think either way brand is a bullish on on whether it be personal or corporate entity. Brands are really significant and only are becoming more so because people need meaning. The other issue with technology, anxiety shot through the roof, depression shot through the roof. Guess who overindexed?

Young girls. And, you know and sadly even suicide. So that tells me we have a meaning problem. We have a people don't feel like it's worth contributing and being their best selves problem. So brands have this unique opportunity to not just be piggy bank to collect everyone's money but to mean something bigger as a belief system and identity for a set group of people because what you're essentially making is a bank of priceless after you get the brand because you can't compete with

price we have all the products that we need to live we need products that make us want to live that's the big switch and that's why I get chills when I think of Boss Babe because it was such a powerful brand and is, and it will live. It doesn't even necessarily need a certain company. It's just going to live. It's an entity. It's a belief.

It's a brand. And so that's what I mean when I say like I'm bullish on brand being the number one thing folks need to invest in to really stand out. Oh, I love that. And it's so true. Like when you think about all these categories that are just being redone and kind of redeveloped, people are just taking old stale brands and then making them relatable in some kind of way.

And that's where everyone gravitates towards. Yeah. What do you think about social media and the kind of state of creators and influence? I like threads because it's entertaining. It's a little addicting. They're gonna be integrating ads, I heard, which makes sense. So we'll see how that changes the dynamic.

I don't know, I just, nothing really feels stable anymore. Like they're saying TikTok can be banned or taken away. And then Instagram, I think a lot of people haven't woken up to the fact that Instagram wants you to pay them to get your stuff distributed. Right. And people are like, oh, like, Instagram keeps telling me to buy a badge and buy ads. And I'm like, that's the business model, babe. Like, the days of just like, the thing about social media platforms, they need to hit a threshold of content density to really start being aggressive about the business

model of it. Us as Millennials who don't know what's going on and Gen Z doesn't and we're just like well we're here for the vibe. It's like yeah we're creating the vibe we create the vibe and then they put like paywalls on the vibe and it's not really a vibe anymore and I'm like yeah we're now 10 plus years in with Instagram. It's met the threshold, babe. Like there's enough content now. So now if you really want it to circulate, you got to put some coin behind it. So it's just like the options feel, I mean, I don't know.

Does anyone wake up like, I love social media. It's great. Yeah, I know. I think you probably couldn't have predicted the level of burnout that would come from social media. And I especially think in this world of entrepreneurship and creators and influencers, there's one thing I think about a lot is there is no limit to the amount of work you can put in. There's no limit to the amount you can grow.

There is no limit to the amount you can make. And that fuels work addiction in a way that I don't think has ever been seen before. Yeah. And just the conversation behind, well well do you have a business infrastructure that you can at least use your content to promote or are you using the infrastructure of this social media business, right? Basically the difference between products and services and views. What are you selling?

And that was another thing, an issue that was coming up because the rise of BossBabe was also the rise of I want to be an influencer. I want to be popular online and I want to get paid for the popularity. And that was something that I was having an issue with because I've always been more team. Don't sell views. Sell a product or service please, because you're going to burn yourself out. Even if you make it. Okay, you're going to burn, you're gonna burn yourself out even if you make it. Okay you're gonna burn out and give up after. Like the amount of YouTubers who actually met the threshold, who actually got the views and got paid from the views, if you look at Mr. Beast, he started selling his own shit. People started selling their own shit because it gives you more control which is how a business is supposed to feel. What are these social media companies really here to do? This is such a good point about not selling views. I feel like we need to just talk about this for a minute because I completely agree.

A trend that I see is a creator will start something and it will become successful, so they'll start a business behind it. Then they stop creating and they start just doing things for views. That's where they burn out. And we've seen this so many times with people walking away from their businesses. And I constantly have to check myself on this because I get told create around this, this topic, put a hook, like all the things.

And I'm like, if I'm not creating content that I actually enjoy, I can't be in this. A mentor of mine told me, he was like, as much as you love your team, you're going to be here at the end, not them. So don't let social media or people dictate how you create because if you want to be here, you're going to outlast them all. And you need to make sure you're running a race that you can actually run. And that's why having a business that isn't selling views and having a brand really protects you from the current climate right now. Because like I said, even if you do succeed, which is very hard to do in selling those views, you're a moment.

And then what if, you know, fickle people are people are super fickle to these internet personalities But they're less fickle to a brand because it's rooted in values as opposed to like whoever is the cute girl in the moment Trying to sell me the makeup. Oh, I love it So coming full circle at the beginning you said this movement came about because you really want to be famous Yeah, you've got that very quickly. Do you really want to be famous. Yeah, isn't that crazy? You got that very quickly. Do you still want that? No. I mean, to your point, I took a little, and I was like, I'm good.

But growing up influenced by music videos, I don't know, I just, I thought that's what you were supposed to be. You were supposed to be beautiful and famous. And it's such like typical like unhealthy Where's your parents like behavior? Like I'm thinking it's gonna solve everything. I'm just a lost girl I was dealing with the eating disorder at the time. I didn't know that Yeah, I was super anorexic like I would wake up in the morning go on the scale and if it didn't say 99 Permission to just hate myself all day.

I did not know that. Yeah and that was another thing is like I realized people didn't see what I saw when I saw Bossbabe. I saw a girl survive like trauma response to like pay bills. That's what I saw and it took years of healing to be able to look at it and say, wow, that's what I can do at my freaking lowest. But at the time, you don't see it that way. So yeah, I wanted to be famous because I thought because I had a hole in me. And like every other American girl, I thought fame and fortune, we're going to get rid of the hole. And what did get rid of it?

Definitely healing, which for me just meant addressing shame that I was carrying that I didn't need to carry. Wounds, parent wounds, just bullshit from childhood that kept me stuck in so many ways. So many ways. Like it's crazy how much healing through that elevates you. It's almost like you're walking around life with these spiritual anchors and until you get it off of you, you're like, oh shit, I can like fly. So again, that's why looking at Boss Babe from that unhealed perspective was like, man, like nobody really cared for me. I had to get her from the mud and you know, no one saw that I was anorexic.

Like just all these thoughts of like where was my protector? Why was I, you know, why was I alone? Why was I like taking the market on by myself as a 22 year old? Like it was just, but now I look back at it and I'm like, and I fucking killed it. So now that I'm healed, y'all should really watch out. But yeah, so yeah, I wanted fame. And you know, saying building something this big from being at your lowest point, yeah, I can only imagine what you're going to continue creating. Probably that was why so many people related to the brand because it was real.

And there was real pain behind it. And we were all struggling, like in our own ways, right? But we, I think millennials in our early twenties, we were all really struggling to find our way in the world. And a lot of us grew up with really shitty backgrounds, but we didn't know about healing. We didn't know about therapy. The internet was only just coming alive.

Now you gentle parenting, all this stuff. Which I would like to give us credit for. Millennials deserve credit for a few things and one of them is integrating mental health as one of the healths. Cause Gen X said, fuck that. They cared about the finance. I'm like, how's the mental, babe?

So shout out to us for that. Anyway, keep going. No, so true. But probably a lot of what you created from that place is why it was so impactful. Yeah, I agree. And if you were healed back then, it probably wouldn't have landed the same. I agree. I think that young people, and in this case, women, that little vulnerable stage between 18 and like 20, let's

call it 24, when you have to transition to an adult. And I have a lot of work on this as well in like the tech philosophy material because I feel strongly that we don't really have rights of passage. Like we don't have like, and now you have proven that you are ready for adulthood. You know your strengths, you have support. Like, no, I don't know my strengths. I don't have support. I'm literally winging it on a growing internet that's out of control and about to change

in a million ways every day. And so that lack of direction, and again, this is why I do see brands as so powerful because they're almost like these matriceses where that chaos becomes makes sense. Okay, I might not know what's going on out there, but I know when I'm here and that's how it felt is like I know these girls are also lost in the wilderness of capitalism. And they're like, Okay, I don't know what's about to happen, but I'm not changing my shoes because of it.

And that's what brought us together. Yeah. And it makes me think too about not Gen Z, but the generation that comes after them, kind of our kids. Alpha. They're gonna really deal with that with AI. It's gonna be a whole new conversation, the way that we dealt with social media,

they're growing up with AI and trying to find their feet with all of this. We don't give ourselves a chance to exhale. When has the exhale happened? It doesn't happen because the technology is invested in so rapidly out of fear, out of maybe male fear, I don't know, because I'm just like,

how do women do business like this? But that's how I feel. I just feel like, yeah, like there's just, we're just victims of like what, you know, they wanna do with the technology that integrates into the deepest level of our daily lives. And I have to just adjust. And before I even put a value judgment on that

as good or bad, it's just like, whoa, that's kind of crazy. Buckle up. I've been trying. That's crazy. It's so hard. That's the best way of, that's the best word. Yeah. Yeah. Well, thank you for doing this.

Thanks for having me. It's been a long time coming and I just feel, honestly honestly a bit of sense of relief to have it out there too. Yes, I agree. Do you feel like there's anything we didn't say? I really I feel like we covered it all and I'm just so grateful that we were able to have this conversation and I want to just again thank you for being great and I'm really impressed and inspired with what you built with my little trauma response. But also just so grateful for all the women who've supported me, Natalie, this movement and yeah I'm just so grateful.

Let's do this again in another couple of years and see where we are. Okay. Thank you so much seriously and I just want to say I wouldn't be here if it wasn't for you and what you created. And I am so grateful to you. You are such a meaningful person in my life, in my story. And really I remember, you know, yeah, you were a year younger than me, but I remember back then you pouring so much confidence into me too. Cause I remember being like, what the fuck you get, what am I doing? And you're like, you can do it, you're fine.

And you, and you didn't micromanage me and you let me fuck up. And I am very grateful to you. So thank you. Oh, okay. Oh. Okay. Okay.

Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. We are beyond thrilled to share some incredible news with you.

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