the bossbabe podcast - 484: The Real Reasons Successful Women Struggle with Intimacy with Sex Therapists Vanessa & Xander

Episode Date: September 25, 2025

For so many high-achieving women, intimacy becomes the one area of life that feels stuck, overwhelming, or even like another thing on the to-do list. In this episode, we’re diving into why with licensed sex therapist Vanessa Marin (featured in The New York Times, Oprah, and more) and her husband and co-host Xander Marin. Together, they break down the hidden pressures, perfectionism, and cultural myths that block successful women from experiencing the intimacy they actually want. From navigating the mental load and shifting gender roles to rebuilding desire after dry spells or postpartum, this conversation is equal parts practical and refreshing. Vanessa and Xander share simple tools you can start using right away, like transition rituals, the “Get Intimate” method, and reframing foreplay - so intimacy feels less like work and more like connection. Whether you’re in a season of burnout, carrying the breadwinner role, or just craving more closeness, this episode will help you feel seen and give you realistic steps to reignite your relationship. TIMESTAMPS 00:00 - Why successful women struggle with intimacy more than you think 02:45 - The hidden role of perfectionism and pressure in the bedroom 06:30 - Transition rituals that shift you out of “go mode” into connection 11:55 - How changing gender roles and breadwinner dynamics impact intimacy 19:40 - Mental load, resentment, and why it kills desire 28:15 - The “Get Intimate” method: gratitude, eye contact, and touch 33:50 - Why desire is overrated + what to focus on instead 38:35 - Rethinking foreplay: starting long before the bedroom 49:10 - Breaking dry spells and postpartum “sexual inertia” 55:25 - Is there a ‘normal’ frequency couples should be having sex? 01:01:10 - Practical tools for better quality, more connected intimacy RESOURCES + LINKS Explore Vanessa And Xander’s Membership Deeper → Get 3 Months For Just $97 With This Link. Join The Société: Build Your Freedom-Based Business™ With Systems, Templates, Coaching + Community. Just $97/Month. Imagine Having Natalie As Your CMO, On Call 24/7 To Help You Make The Right Moves In Your Business. That’s Exactly What You Get With Bossbabe AI The Freedom Engine™: AI-Powered Strategy And Systems That Show You What To Sell, How To Sell It, And How To Scale - Without All The Guesswork. Learn More And Unlock It Here. Sign Up For Our Free Weekly Newsletter & Get Insights From Natalie Every Single Week On All Things Strategy, Motherhood, Business Growth + More.  Drop Us A Review On The Podcast + Send Us A Screenshot & We’ll Send You Natalie’s 7-Figure Operating System Completely FREE (value $1,997).

Welcome back to the Boss Babe podcast. So today's episode is one. I've been so excited to bring you and it's a little bit different from what we normally do. I sat down with Vanessa and Zanda Marin, the couple who somehow managed to make talking about sex feels so normal, hilarious and doable. Vanessa is a licensed sex therapist who's been featured everywhere from the New York Times to Oprah and Zanda brings the real life husband perspective that makes every conversation with them just feel really grounded and honest. And so we center this whole. whole conversation around high-performing women. So the women who are leading businesses, carrying a million responsibilities, and then wondering why intimacy feels like another thing on the to-do list. Vanessa and Zander were really amazing at breaking down the pressure, the perfectionism and the myths that can really get in the way of genuine connection. It is not just a fluffy relationship chat. It is real, it's raw, and we take a look at what it looks like to nurture intimacy when you're really ambitious, when you're driven, and when you've got a lot on your plate.

So my hope is that you walk away, feeling seen, you laugh a bit, and then you've got a few simple tactics that could change everything for you. Hi, welcome to the podcast. I'm so excited for this conversation. Thanks so much for having us. We're super excited to be here.

Yeah. I want to dive in at the deep end and talk about what you see really inhibits successful women in relationship, getting what they want sexually. I feel like it's such. a specific demographic of women who are out there really crushing it in their career juggling so many things holding so many things you know they're like 10 out of 10 in every area but then when

it comes to their sex life or intimacy in their marriage it seems to be the thing that's always on the backburner are the one thing they just can't achieve at and so I'm curious is this something you see a lot and what are the common things you think women in that situation struggle with That's a huge part of our audience as well. When I first got started setting up my career in sex therapy, I was originally working with people in a traditional psychotherapy setting, like seeing people one on one. And probably 80% of my clients were high achieving women who are coming in and telling me, you know, I've got everything else in life figured out, but I just cannot figure out this whole sex thing. And there are a lot of different dynamics that feed into it. But a big one is just that we are all so behind. when it comes to sex. Sex is still a very taboo topic. We have so much misinformation, so many unrealistic expectations that are sabotaging all of us. And with high achieving women in particular, we feel like we've figured so many other things out, but we're still being hindered by all this crap that we grew up being taught. And I can resonate with a lot of that myself. Like, I like to be

really open about my sex life. Individually, we talk a lot about our sex life. As a couple, we try to be vulnerable and go first with that vulnerability. But I struggled with a lot of stuff myself, even knowing that I wanted to be in this field. You know, I faked orgasms with every partner for the vast majority of my sex life. I struggled to initiate sex, to communicate what I wanted. So I understand that struggle as well. And so for that woman listening who's nodding along and is resonating, let's say we're

speaking to someone who is in relationship. And maybe she's feeling like her work is. requiring a lot of quote unquote masculine energy from her and you know that doesn't always work when you get home what are some of the steps she can be taking to get the sex life that she actually wants so one thing I want to say about this is I think a lot of us are struggling right now to figure out how we want to play with gender and like gender identities in our relationship we're growing up in this really interesting time zander and i have struggled with this in our own relationship too. Like we both grew up with feminist families, you know, being taught, as a woman,

I was taught, you know, you can do anything you want to do. You can be anything you want to be. Being a girl isn't going to hold you back. And when we got into our relationship, we didn't want to have these traditional gender roles. We didn't want to have a stereotypical, you know, 1950s style relationship. Yet at the same time, we didn't really understand, but what is the alternative? Like, what are the other options? So I know we can talk a little bit more about that, about how we explore, you know, masculinity and femininity and how does that come up in relationship and in our sex lives. But in terms of figuring out what we want for our sex life, obviously that's a huge question, right? And so we want to come up with a really practical starting point for people

who are just starting to approach this topic. So one of our favorite exercises is to think of three words that you want to describe your eventual sex life. So if you ask somebody, hey, do you want to have a great sex life? 99 people out of 100 are going to say, yeah, of course. But when we ask them, okay, well, what does that mean to you? What does great mean to you? Most people are deer in headlights. Like, I don't know.

It's like we've never taken the time to think about that question. So just starting to think about, yeah, what are three words that I want to use in the future? It doesn't have to describe what your sex life is like right now. But in the future, that's what I want to be working towards. That's such a fun first step to take. And I think when you know what those things are that you're aiming for, I think one of the other first, like, really big things that you can start to do and implement in your life that will really make a big difference is like you need to find

a way to transition from that sort of like go, go, go work mode. Maybe, you know, if you want to call that like the more masculine energy, like you can. But like, you know, that transition from, okay, I'm finishing work. I'm coming home. Now I need to transition to some of those other attributes that you might have just come up with from, you know, from Vanessa's suggestion. And I think that, yeah, the problem is so many of us, we get really hooked on that go, go, go, do, do, do energy. And when you don't shut it off and you just like kind of like careen back into the house and you're, all right, we got to throw dinner together. All right, now we got to do the dishes.

you know, it's like you get to, you know, you get to sex and then you feel like you're kind of locked into that same energy. Like, okay, now I have to make this happen too. And, you know, I don't think you can go from like a million miles a minute to slowing down and relaxing and receiving. Instantaneous. You just, you can't do that. So you have to have some transition time. So whether you're a really busy, successful professional or you're a really busy mom, like the advice is actually the same. Like, you can't go from like super duper mom. mode or super duper work mode into, you know, okay, now I'm like super sexy and receiving. Like there has to be some transition time. I know that can be a tough pill with swallow when

you already are really busy. And you're like, well, come on. I just want to check another thing off the to do list. But it's like, it's like great that you want sex to be on the to do list. And it is important sometimes that sex is on the to do list. But I think that you also have to balance that with like, you can't just be like, I want to do this so that I can like get the dopamine hit of checking it off. Like, you. got to have at least a pause on the to-do list beforehand. Have you seen what a successful transition could look like or do you help them think about what that might look like? Because I completely relate to that and completely see it of like switching between all of those

modes take so much intention and so much effort. It's not something that just naturally happens the minute you walk through the door. Yeah, I think so many of us have this idea that we should just be to close the bedroom door and make that instant transition, but it's so, it's impossible. It really is. So I like to think of transition rituals as having two stages to them. The first is we have to come back home to ourselves first. Like your body. Yeah. We can't be, you know, in this constant busy due mode and then go straight into connecting with our partner. Like it just feels like we're lost from our own self. So something that helps you come back home to yourself. And then the second part of it is something that helps you start to connect with your partner. And really that's an emotional intimacy piece. A lot of people

want to go from my partner and I've both been running around. We haven't even said a single word to each other. We've just been texting like, did you forget to get the milk again? And then now we're supposed to be having sex with each other. Like that feels crazy. So we need that emotional intimacy. Zana and I really like to focus on being practical. We know most people don't, you don't have like an hour every day to have this like glorious, beautiful transition ritual. So let's think about like what's the most practical. And this can be really different for everybody. So I would think about like if I have 60 seconds for each of those two things, what's something I could do in 60 seconds that would make me feel even like 10% more in my own skin. So keep it really simple. It could literally be taking a few

deep breaths. It could be locking yourself in the closet with the lights off, putting your phone on the other end of the closet and just sitting in the darkness with no stimulation around you for 60 seconds. It could be a little dance party to one of your favorite songs or a quick walk around the block. And then when it comes to you and your partner connecting, having maybe like a deeper question to ask each, like a question of the day, we have a card deck that goes along with our book, sex talks. So maybe it's like asking each other a more interesting question than just how was your day? Or maybe it's a joint dance party. Maybe it's just cuddling on the couch together or holding hands. Yeah, something that Vanessa and I did. I mean, this was way back in the first

couple years of our relationship before either of us were really in any kind of business like this when, you know, it was a season of life where Vanessa was in grad school and kind of working a couple odd jobs. I was, um, I was in the middle of like a consulting career. And it was, we were both really busy. And what I was finding for myself when I got home, I was struggling to be able to switch into intimate mode. And we weren't having very much sex. And I was, you know, was feeling like, God, you know, once I get home and we have eaten and we've done all the things, like all I want to do is sit on the couch. What we decided, what we started doing is actually as soon as I got home, we would go into the bedroom and just like cuddle in the bed and do like

10 minutes of just talking, hey, how is your day? Like, how is your day? How are you doing now? And so it was like combining the conversation with some physical touch. There was zero expectation that that led to sex. I think that that activity specifically almost never led to sex. It was more of just meaning to be like, okay, we're home, we're in our home. There's like relaxing energy. We're feeling emotional connection because we're touching each other. Honestly, when you are, you know, kind of hugging or cuddling for more than about 30 seconds, your body starts to release oxytocin, which calms you down and makes you feel bonded to your partner. So that was so meaningful for us. And I found that was such a good way for me to switch out of work mode and start

to let all the things in my head kind of slip away. And the key with the transition, ritual is to really be intentional about it. So to think to yourself in those 30 or 60 seconds, like, I am doing this to come back home into my own skin. Or we are doing this so that we can reconnect. Even when you just have a brief period of time, there's not something, you know, crazy that you can do. Just setting that intention in your mind makes the activity itself so much more powerful. I do love how practical and easy all those things are. Like, I'm so glad it wasn't diving into a one hour ritual, but those things do feel really do about. Even though the deep breaths are going into a dark room, that can help so much.

And I've even noticed, like, if I'm driving home from somewhere, like instead of a podcast or music, I'll just sit in silence and just little pockets of time wherever you can grab it. I feel like it's so easy for everyone to do. But it's often so much easier to fill our time with just so much simulation. I also want to talk about, you did mention traditional gender roles. And one thing we've definitely seen is those things being flipped. So just talking about how many women in their relationship now are breadwinners, when, you know, if you look at the 50s, so not a thing, you know, that has really flipped and changed. And I'm curious what you have seen those kind of changes, meaning when it comes to intimacy, like has the rise of the female breadwinner created more intimacy blocks or need to be more intentional? Have you seen that affect intimacy?

I don't think female. Females becoming breadwinners more frequently has negatively impacted intimacy, like more than, you know, men being the traditional breadwinners. But it just is different for a lot of us. It introduces a different kind of dynamic that a lot of people aren't used to. And this is, again, something that we went through in our own relationship. When we first started dating, I very quickly into the relationship went back to grad school. And so Zander really was the primary provider. And he said, you know, to me, hey, you go to grad. school focus on grad school I'll take care of us and then we had this very interesting experience a couple of years into it where I was starting to get my practice set up I was starting to make good money and Xander was questioning you know I'm not sure what my next step for my career is and I said you know you held it down for me when I went to grad school so why don't I support you for a little bit it sounded like logically such a great idea yeah I was like I'm on board totally on board with that logical it's very logical even and it's exactly what I want right now it's what I need but then reality of us doing that, it shocked both of us. How much it, like, rattled us to our core to

switch roles like that. It was like literally day one that I was not getting paid. I started like freaking out inside. It was like, oh my God, what am I, what value am I bringing? What tangible value am I bringing to the table as a partner, as a man? And that was, that was so, so hard. because I think the problem is we've changed so much of the kind of like societal expectations of who is working and, you know, like everybody accepts that like, you know, almost in most relationships, both partners work. And, you know, it's just as likely that, you know, the woman in a male-female relationship makes more money. The problem is what we see portrayed in like movies and on TV hasn't necessarily caught up. And especially, you know, like we were all born a while ago. Back when we were born, it was. far less, far less like it is now. And so we really get indoctrinated from seeing all these things from childhood onward. And, you know, we see these roles portrayed over and over.

So it's like, it's one thing to know in our heads. Oh, yeah. Like, of course my partner is going to work. And like, yeah, of course she might make more money than I do. But at the same time, like, I've seen all of these depictions of like, okay, like the man provides. The man provides financially. The man provides sexually.

Like, I'm supposed to lead. everything when it comes to sex. And so it can be really confronting when, you know, you see a situation in your life where it actually is not fitting in with all the kind of stories that I've seen portrayed throughout my life. And do you think that it changes polarity? Do you think polarity is important? And do you think it can change that dynamic? I think polarity, like, polarity is a fun thing to play with in relationships. And there's really a balance. Like in every healthy relationship, we need to feel some amount of close. and sameness. Like, that's what helps us feel safe with each other. It creates this

foundation. And we also need to be able to feel our differences, too. So if we go to just one extreme or the other, it's not going to be a healthy relationship. We need to have a mixture of both of those. Yeah, I mean, I think for us, the thing that really helped the most is literally just talking about it, like getting it all out in the open. I think that's the thing that a lot of couples don't feel willing to do or feel really scared of doing. And so that kind of can end up attracting them to this idea, you know, this sort of like more like, okay, well, who is more of the masculine energy and the feminine energy and how do I, you know, how do I maximize the feminine energy so he can

maximize his masculine energy? As opposed to just like talking, you know, what we realize is we just kind of had to put all the cards on the table. Like, hey, I'm really struggling with the fact that you are supporting me and I'm not working. I'm not sure what I am providing. And I got to get that fear out there often when we just vocalize something rather than keeping it inside our own head. It loses a lot of its power. It allows us to kind of examine it and figure out, okay, how much of this really feels true for me. How much of this was just like nonsense in my head. And at the same time, it allowed Vanessa to be able to hear that

and, you know, validate me, but also then share her experience of, hey, this is what this is like for me, you know, here's how I'm feeling about it. You know, I'm thinking, oh, God, she's just like looking at me being like, oh, this worthless guy, like, when is he going to start making some money? And then I got to check that story with her. So I think that if we are willing to get vulnerable and kind of lay the cards on the table and be like, hey, here's what I'm worried about. Here's what I'm thinking. And then our partner's honest with us. We can get through a lot of these things. And then that kind of allows us to set aside a lot of the, you know, kind of like those voices in our head, the socialization talking to us and be like, okay, yeah, I was worried

about this stuff. I can set that aside. And now, like, now we can think about, okay, how do we want to show up with each other in the bedroom? It doesn't necessarily have to, you know, look the way that we thought that it did. Got it. So what I'm hearing is what you guys have seen is that a female breadwinner dynamic doesn't necessarily shift polarity or it doesn't matter so much. And it's more about the communication. Yeah, it's really about being able to have those open conversations with each other. Like, I had no clue what Zander was going. going through at that time. And I had no clue all of these pressures that he was feeling to be the primary breadwinner. So us being able to talk about like what is, what are your expectations

of yourself as a man? What are the things you were taught you were supposed to do or the ways you were supposed to show up? And I got to share what that was like on my end too. You know, what have I been taught about what it means to be a woman. We just have these really intimate and very vulnerable conversations about that. And at times, you know, we didn't necessarily have an answer to it, but just being able to talk about that out loud. It was something that we'd actually never talked about before. And it made us both feel a lot closer to each other. Yeah, I mean, I think like if, you know, the answer is going to be different for every couple. But like when you start having those conversations, once you actually start getting willing to talk about, okay,

what does being a man mean to me or what does being a woman mean to you? If the answer for you is, hey the really like I've thought about all the possibilities and really the main thing that makes me feel like a man is bringing home more money than you or something like if that's literally the answer then you know then I guess that's the answer for you you got to you're going to have to figure out how to do that or figure out if that can fit into your relationship I'm saying that in the extreme because I think that most people when they actually get honest with themselves think of okay well you know to be you know maybe it's you know I want to be able to make a difference in the world or I want to be able to be of service to someone or something. I think that,

you know, often because of that socialization and the way that we've always seen it, most men grow up thinking, well, the way that I am of service to my family, the way that I provide is financially. But I think that when we actually examine it, we can find a lot of different ways to be able to provide that don't have to be financial or we can find a lot of ways to feel really masculine or feel really feminine that aren't necessarily, you know, the two or three main ways that we see portrayed on TV. And ultimately, I think that like 80% of relationship conflicts come down to wanting to feel seen and validated by each other. And that was such an important part of the conversation for us is I got to tell Xander like, okay, wow, I really, I can see that

now. And I can understand that pressure that you've been feeling. And I can understand how much anxiety and fear this, you know, season of our life has been causing you. So just being able to hear that for me, and like Xander was saying earlier, for him to be able to vocalize something that he'd been holding inside of himself. But the validation really is such a key part of feeling like a team. Yeah, that makes total sense. And then on that same vein, what about for couples where one of them carries more of the mental load in the relationship? And this can be on either side. you know, let's say there is just unevenness in that mental load. You know, one thing that I see with a lot of women in my audience is they do hold more of the

mental load of their family. A lot of them are mothers. A lot of them are high performing women and they can hold more of that mental load. And I do see that coming up in conversations, especially in my mastermind, coming up in conversations as affecting intimacy. Have you seen that in yours? Absolutely. I'm really glad that we're starting to talk.

more about mental load because it's such an important topic, but there haven't been nearly enough conversations about how mental load can affect intimacy. And if you've been struggling in your relationship to talk about mental load with your partner, you feel like you're not getting through to them or they keep saying, well, I don't get it. Framing it in the context of intimacy can be a really great way to get your partner to listen a little bit more and open that door. So for anybody who hasn't heard of the phrase before, mental load refers to the invisible mental labor that goes into running a household and family. So there are actual tasks and responsibilities that we have to do like grocery shopping. But behind each task, there's an

incredible amount of mental and emotional labor. So it's not just I have to go grocery shopping. It's I have to remember to go grocery shopping on Friday because I'm supposed to cook muffins for the kids soccer team on Sunday. And I have to remember that all of our kids used to love this cereal, but now they hate it. So I have to buy the other one. I got to remember to bring the coupons and clip them out from the news. paper. I have to remember like, oh, that brand of cookies gave everybody a horrible stomach ache last time so I can't get that. It's just, you know, this constant, constant thought process that's going on and research shows that in male-female relationships, women carry

the mental load, vast majority of the time. And the way that it can have an impact on intimacy is that there's literally so much mental load in your brain that you feel like you don't have the space for anything else. Like, I don't have the space for thinking about sex. I don't have the space to feel desire. I don't even have the space in the moment, even if I just overcome all the mental load challenges and I decide to have sex with my partner, then I'm in the moment trying to be intimate with them and thinking like, oh my God, I have to remember to call the doctor and make that appointment. Like, it's just not fun or sexy. And one of the other horrible ways that mental load can affect intimacy is if you feel like your partner is more like your child than your partner. It's just another person that you have to take care of, all these things that you have to remember to do for them or remind them to do for themselves, check in on them to make sure they're doing those things.

It feels like you don't have an equal partnership. You're taking care of your partner. And that is incredibly unsexy. And then, I mean, that dynamic very quickly turns into simmering resentment, too, because you're thinking, it's not cool. Like, my partner just gets to sit and watch TV when they get home from work. And I'm here doing like 10 other things. They always get to be the relaxed one. And I'm the one that's always, you know, having to keep track of everything.

And so good luck getting turned on when you feel a resent blind. I've never, I've never managed to do that. So that, yeah, that's like a recipe for no intimacy. So what do we do about it? So the main thing that we need to do is we need to make all this invisible labor visible. And we need to make a clear and specific. plan for how we share the mental load in our relationship. So Zander and I actually fell into this trap ourselves early in our relationship. Like when I went back to grad school, I thought, okay,

he's handling everything financially. I'm in grad school. I'm in the home more often. It makes more sense for like me to take on all these tasks and responsibilities. But like so many people, it very quickly led to this place of starting to feel resentful, feeling unappreciated and unseen for all the things that I was doing. So what we did is we made a huge list. of all of the tasks and responsibilities that we had in our household and the specific labor that went into each of those. And it took a bit of time, you know, to really think through like, what are all those different things? But then what we did is we split up all of those items in a way that felt fair to us. So we literally went through item by item. I shared with Zandra, a lot of them

were things that like, hey, so I know to you it looks like the toilet paper is just always stocked in our apartment. But actually, here's what I'm doing to make sure that I'm thinking about that and that we're never running low. So I went through, you know, all of the mental load that was behind it. And then we split those tasks up. And what we decided to do is really make one person responsible for the entire task. So it wasn't that Zander got to swoop in and just help me from time to time. It was like he needed to take on tasks that were fully his responsibility. So like we talked about earlier, just that like the getting it out there was a huge. step for us. There was so much that he was able to realize like, oh, wow, I'd never thought about

how that happens. I'd never thought about that aspect of our life. Like, thank you for doing that. And there were also items that he had taken on that I didn't realize he was managing. So for both of us, we really got to feel so much more seen by the other. And then we got to create this plan where we felt like, you know, it doesn't need to be 50-50 because life isn't 50-50. But we created this plan where we, it felt fair to both of us. And it was really clear of who's doing what. Yeah, I think it's just that simple act. You know, it's kind of like what I was saying before. It's literally getting the cards on the table. Like, look, here is the situation. It's, you know, taking it out of the dark and into the light. Here is the situation, even if you barely split

anything up beyond how it already is, that at least creates a framework where your partner then is going eyes wide open into the fact that they are not contributing nearly as much to. the household as you are and it but it also opens the door for like more validation for your partner more gratitude because then they're like oh you are doing all of this stuff and I'm barely doing any of it so yeah we would love for people to split it up in a way that really feels fair to them but often just the simple act of getting it out there opens the door for you know for at least more understanding more gratitude more appreciation which is so so important Yeah, we pulled our Instagram community.

We asked people, do you feel like your partner sees and appreciates everything that you do? And I think it was like 84% of people said no, which is really wild if you think about it. Like we're just really seeing, feeling very unseen and unappreciated by each other. And I think for anyone that is kind of resistant to this idea, whether it's like you're holding the mental load and you're like, oh, God, it seems like it's going to be just too big of a production to lay it all out there. or you're on the other side of it and you're like, oh, well, like, we shouldn't have to do this? Like, can't like we just do things as they go? The comparison that I like to make is it's like, if you started a brand new job and they were like, okay, here's your job title.

There is no job description. There are no KPIs. There is no expectations. Well, there are expectations. I'm not going to tell you what they are. Just, you know, meet your coworkers and figure out what to do, right? Like, that would seem crazy. that would seem absolutely crazy but like some people would find a way to succeed and some people

would be beating their heads against the wall like must people would but I think that that's what ends up happening in the household is that it's like you know women are often socialized okay I'm supposed to do this stuff and so you just start doing it whereas men are not socialized to do that they don't see that example when they're growing up and so you know they feel like well I just don't really know what to do and my partner's already doing it so I'm just going to kind of let it slide. But yeah, it's like, hey, if you're going to, if you're going to be an adult and, you know, and have a household, then you want to be able to do a good job. So let's get all the, all the rules and the requirements and the, you know, let's flash out the job description,

at the very least to set both people up for success. Is the game fair play? Is that it? Have you heard of that game? Yeah, yeah. Fair play is amazing. I definitely recommend reading the book and they have a card deck to, um, to help you like divide the tasks up if you want a more structured way to do it. So let's say there's a couple listening who are a woman listening who's really struggled with that, who has struggled with holding a lot of the mental load really resonates when you're talking about resentment and the lack of desire that then comes from feeling so resentful. I feel like underlying all of this as probably a real emotional disconnection in the couple because it's very hard to connect when you're harboring resentment. So how do they start to move into more

regular connection, you know, not even thinking about sex right now, but knowing that that's where they want to get to, like, taking baby steps. So if you're really resonating with the mental load stuff, I think the mental load, breaking it up, sharing it in your relationship really should be like a great first step. But I also want to talk a little bit about our, we call this our get intimate technique. These are our top three tips for creating more emotional intimacy in your relationship quickly, because again, we're all about being practical. Like, of course, If you could go off on a two-week couple's retreat, that would be wonderful. But let's be realistic.

Like, what can we do on a daily basis to feel closer to each other? So, get, there are three different things. The G stands for gratitude. Everybody's familiar with gratitude, but most people don't know. Gratitude is actually found to be the number one predictor of marital satisfaction. It's that powerful. And what we love about gratitude and actually all of the three techniques here is that it's free, it's easy, It's super fast. It feels good to give and to receive.

You know, we've talked a few times already in this interview about feeling unseen and unappreciated by each other. And I really think that's one of the greatest tragedies of being in a relationship, choosing to spend your entire life with somebody, but winding up feeling invisible to them. So if you can take a moment, even just one time a day, to call out to your partner something that you see them doing, something that you appreciate about them, about who they are as a person, just take that moment to express gratitude for them. It's going to feel good to them and it's going to feel really good for you. The E stands for eye contact. It's actually really wild. Just think about how little eye contact most couples make. We are just kind of

coexisting in this space, but most of us are glued to our phones. We're looking at our computers. You're watching TV. We're playing with the kids. We're not actually making eye contact with each other. And eye contact feels so incredibly vulnerable and intimate. And it's such a great way, like a great hack for feeling instantly more connected to your partner. So you can pair this with the gratitude to like make eye contact with your partner as you're telling them something you appreciate about them or even just making an effort to look at them when they come into a room or when you guys come home at the end of the night or whatever it is. You know, I recognize this in our own relationship just a couple of years ago.

I was like, when Zander walks in the room, I don't even acknowledge his presence. And that's pretty wild, actually. That this is my husband, the love of my life, my best friend, this person I've chosen to spend my life with. And I can't even take that single second to look up and acknowledge like, hey, you're here. So that's the E. And then T is touch. Touch is another thing that most relationships are pretty starved of.

A lot of us really only touch each other during sex. or in the lead-up to sex. And we've made this connection that touch is supposed to lead the sex. So if you've ever felt yourself, like, let's say you're washing the dishes and your partner comes up behind you to give you a hug and you feel yourself bristle.

We actually have this thing that we call the bristle reaction. That's because you don't have enough touch in your relationship. You've made this connection that, oh, he's only touching me because you want sex. He wants something more. The touch has a motive. Yeah. And why would you want sex? You're literally in the middle of your to-do-lis.

So we need to break that. pattern, that idea that any sort of touch is supposed to lead to sex. And one of the best ways to do that is just to have more touch in our relationship to show each other. Like, I'm touching you just to connect with you, just to, you know, bond with you, not because I want something out of you. So in particular, we love the 30 second hug and the six second kiss. Research has shown that those are the specific timeframes our bodies need to release oxytocin, which is the hormone that promotes a sense of trust and love. It makes us feel close and connect. connected to each other. And again, super practical, 36 seconds. You could do with them at the same time and they could be 30 seconds, but just having that little moment of physical contact with each other. And so for couples listening who are feeling like, okay, this is a really, really great start to start building that emotional connectedness, but the sex stuff still feels so far away. Maybe they're not having sex as much as they want to or they're just not excited about it. They're not thinking about it, maybe it's their own desire, that is just not where they want it to be.

What's that roadmap to getting there and like reigniting that in their relationship? I'm glad you asked this question because I think this is one of the biggest misconceptions that people have about relationships. A lot of us are sitting around waiting to feel the desire for sex. We're waiting to feel that like primal urge. Like I have to be with you right now. I have to have you right now. And most of us don't feel that very often. Especially outside of the honeymoon phase. Yeah. We're just kind of sitting around like, I guess.

You know, I guess maybe we're not super compatible. Maybe something's wrong with me. I'm broken. I, you know, don't feel desire. And we actually believe that desire is highly overrated. We think that having a willingness and intentionality about sex is so much more important. So there are a couple of practical things that we've done to, like, to bring this into our own relationship. One is we changed the way that we initiated. So we used to initiate how the vast majority of people

initiate by asking each other, do you want to have sex right now? And for me, whenever Xander would ask me that question, it felt like a pop quiz. Like, wait, like, you want to have sex right now? Like, I wasn't even thinking about sex. And I feel like I'm behind. Like, I kind of lost in some way already. So it was really easy for me to have a knee jerk reaction and say no. So instead what we did is we changed the question to, are you open to having sex? Or are you open to being turned on? So that just literally changing that one word reminded me, I don't have to be magically interested in sex in the exact same moment that he's thinking about it. Like, think about that. That would actually be really weird. If every time your partner was interested in having sex with you, magically you were

interested in that exact same moment. So we have to normalize, like, it's okay to not be turned on. It's not, do you want this right now? It's, are you open to connecting with me? And we also increased the timeline in initiation. So being asked in the moment, like, hey, do you want to have sex right now? That feels pretty high pressure. So instead, we started initiating with each other earlier in the morning. Like, we would say to each other, hey, I really want to have sex with you at some point

today. When would be a good time for that? Like, are you open to that? When would work in our schedules? And so that gave us this chance to kind of think through, okay, you know, I don't think we're going to have the opportunity until it's probably going to be the end of the night. So is there anything that we can prioritize, anything that we could tackle together as a team to like get off of our plates to make it go a little bit faster? And so doing it in this way really helps us

feel more like a team. Like we are working together to create the space and the opportunity for intimacy. And this is even where you could weave in those transition rituals. Like let's say Xander initiated with me and I was like, my day is going to be so crazy today. I'm not sure if I'm going to like, you know, have that space. I could ask him for support of, hey, can you handle this thing for me? So I can have that time to have a transition ritual. That could be a great technique for parents too, for moms for like, I need a little bit of a little bit of like me time. I need not be in mom mode all the time. Can you take the kids and maybe you're handling bedtime tonight or something like that? Yeah. And honestly, initially, that was a challenging thing for me to do to shift

from that sort of like, hey, do you want to have sex right now to, hey, it would be great. to have sex later today. What do you think? Because for me, you know, I have that sort of male conditioning of like, hey, I'm supposed to be ready to go whenever, wherever, which in reality, no man is actually ready to go whenever, wherever. But the way that we try to show that is typically men only initiate when they are really feeling like, okay, yeah, I feel really confident that like I could be ready to go right now, which is why we say, hey, do you want to have sex right now? Right now, which is a really high bar because probably your partner does not want to have sex right now. So you're just increasing the chance that you come away feeling

frustrated or let down, right? And so I felt challenged by saying, hey, I'd love to have sex later because in that moment, I didn't know, will I actually want to have sex later? And so I was stuck in this mind frame of like, I can only have sex or like, I can only be sexual as a man if I'm like wildly turned on in a given moment. And what I had to do is reframe that to like, no, like we are co-creating desire together like we are in control of our sex drive together we know what we can do to make each other feel good and so if we are prioritizing some time together we get to take the time in the space to get each other turned on and once I realize that that like completely open the doors of our sex life I think and that really reframed a lot of a lot of my

own sexuality honestly and I you know I think that's such an important realization for more men to have that, yeah, who cares if you're wildly turned on in the moment? You can talk about having sex later and if you and your partner do the work of actually really figuring out, like, what each other like, what turns each other on, what things get you there, like, you can make that happen when you have the time set aside. I think it's also so helpful hearing both of your perspectives on this too. I feel like every woman listening needs to send this to her partner because that's just so helpful to hear. And I love that you're talking about framing this earlier in the day because I agree

when you're both so busy. And if it's always just like a last thought, then it's one of those things that probably doesn't end up happening. Do you have any fun tips for ways that you can start the foreplay way earlier? I know for me, I don't want foreplay to start a minute before for about 10 seconds. I want it to start earlier in the day. I don't know if that's a male-female thing, but I feel like that just really, really works for me versus it just happening in the moment. We have a totally different idea of what foreplay should be. For us, we think foreplay starts the moment that you stop having sex. That's when you're starting foreplay for the next time.

So a lot of people think of it as just the physical act. It is not. There's so many other ways to create that connection, to keep that simmer alive between the two of you. So I love having couples ask each other this question. If I want to have sex with you tonight, what could I do during the day to maximize our chances of being able to connect? And this also gives people a great opportunity to think outside of the box with Foreplay.

We actually did a series recently on Instagram. We asked people like, what are surprising things that turned you on? And people would say everything from like, you know, I love watching my partner like spin his hat around backwards. Or I love when my partner like gives me a massage where they're not, you know, trying to, you know, It's not like 30 seconds of a massage and then they're trying to push for more. Some people said it's a huge turn on for me when my partner's just nice to me. When they say something kind to me, when they offer to take something off my plate and just handle something for me. So trying to think outside the box for yourself of what are some things that get you feeling interested and excited and wanting to connect more with your partner?

But honestly, I mean, it's just having more flirty conversations, even if it's just like a couple of flirty text messages back and forth. And yeah, I mean, I know, again, just like, you know, what I was saying a minute ago about why I was resistant to initiating earlier in the day, I think that some men can feel a bit of resistance to like having that earlier foreplay because there's this worry that it's like, oh, well, it's like I'm writing a check that I might not be able to cash later. And so it's like if that's coming up for you, I think, well, you guys really have to figure out is like, you got to just lay it all on the table and talk about, all right, hey, I'm feeling a little worried that in some random moment later I'm. might not be able to get turned on. You just got to talk about, hey, what do we do to actually get each other turned on? And once you're able to know, okay, I feel confident, you know, we're both in this together. We both want to get each other turned on. It's not like my job to come, like, ready to go and provide to my partner in bed. Like, we're going to do this together. Then you can really lean into all of this kind of earlier flirting. Because I think most women are not, you know, are not so worried about like, oh, God, what if I'm not able to, like, get there?

And you men are worried, like, how, you know, because it's like, well, if I don't get hard, then we can't do it. Yeah. And a lot of sex is also just keeping sex top of mind. You know, so many of us are afraid to talk about sex openly. We work with so many couples who have, like, never even had a very open conversation about sex. But it's hard to get excited and turned on if it feels like this topic that you can't even

touch. So we design a lot of our content, like on Instagram, for example, to just, keep sex more top of mind so you could like send each other our reels like this reel cracked me up or like oh this was this was super interesting what they said so that's also a nice way to like keep that flirtatious energy going between the two of you i love this i just love how practical this all is and it feels like very easy little things that you can do throughout the day to which doesn't feel like a longer to-do list which is amazing i'm curious for both of your perspectives as sex but experts and what you've seen, what your perspective on porn is?

That's a great question. So I think that there's nothing inherently wrong with getting turned on watching other people have sex. It's been happening from the Donna time. Yeah. Like, of course, it's going to feel exciting and stimulating. But I do think that there are a lot of issues with the porn industry, how porn is made and also how porn is consumed.

So, you know. And the way sex is. portrayed and much of it. Unfortunately, most of us are getting our entire sex education from porn. And we need to remember porn is meant to be entertainment. It's not meant to be education. The things that we see in sex are not realistic. I've heard somebody say, like, watching porn and trying to learn how to have sex from that is like watching fast and furious and trying to learn how to drive from that. Like, it's just, that's not how real life works. So I think it's really important for people to be thoughtful about the kind of porn that they're consuming to look

for producers who are making it ethically, who are, you know, being responsible about it. And we also need to be responsible about how we are consuming it. Like, how much of our time are we spending with it? Are we keeping it secret from our partner? Are we turning to porn when we're dealing, like having difficult emotions that we're not letting ourselves deal with otherwise? So it just, it really needs to be something that we think about thoughtfully and that we talk about openly with our partner. Most couples have never talked about their boundaries or guidelines, you know, with each other. And so that's something very important to discuss with your partner. Yeah. So much of what I'm hearing from this conversation is just communication, communication, communication. Like,

there doesn't seem to be, this is the best way. This is the blueprint. It's every couple is very different. But if you're not talking about it, that's where the problems arise. Yeah. And I think so much of what we do. It's like, it's not rocket science, but it's these things that we all know that we should be doing, but we're not actually doing because sex. It still feels like this really taboo topic. So I love hearing you say like, oh, this is very practical. I can do this. It's not some like big, scary unknown thing. It's really just, I like to think of ourselves as just being cheerleaders for people of like, you can do it. It's really valuable. It's not going to be as hard or as scary as you think it is. And it's going to have so much more of an impact than you really.

And what do you both think about rejection when it comes to sex? So do you have kind of a hard and fast rule on, hey, instead of saying no, could you respond like this? Or instead of saying no, is there a way you can get it to a yes? Or like, how do you think about it? Like I know for myself, I just try not to say no. I just really try and rally, basically. And I think sometimes that's just important, like when you're both really busy or you're both parents or whatever. But I don't necessarily know that that's like a great.

thing to be saying and modeling. Like, I don't know what the right thing is. You know what I mean? So I think two things need to be in place. You have to know that you are going to have a good experience, that you're going to enjoy the sex that you're having, and you have to feel emotionally connected with your partner. If you're not, like, in a safe relationship where your pleasure doesn't matter, like, these things totally don't apply.

So I just have to set that caveat first. But in general, you know, I think the different approaches to initiation that we were talking about earlier, that really changes the dynamic between couples, where if we don't put this pressure on ourselves, I have to be wildly turned on. I have to be super excited. When we focus more about that openness and intentionality, that really shifts things, where we feel like we can say yes to our partner a lot more often. So that's a huge step. But let's go to the, like, let's say, you know, your partner's initiated, you've tried to get yourself open, you've tried to create that space, but you're just really not feeling it. That is totally okay. We are allowed to say

know to our partner, but the key is to soften the way that we're saying no. A lot of us feel really uncomfortable saying no. And so we have this knee-jerk reaction of just like, no, you know, or we'll even tease our partner in that moment of like, you want to have sex right now? How could you be thinking of sex right now? So we want to do much softer approach because the reality is initiating with your partner is incredibly vulnerable. And it's really important for us to respect that vulnerability. It takes so much for your partner to put themselves out there and to ask to connect with you. That's actually just another little tip right there. If we reframe initiation, so many of us just think about it as that physical act. But really, when your partner

is initiating, what they're saying to you is, I want to be close to you. I want to feel close to you. I want to be connected to you. So that in and of itself can be a tip. Like, when your partner's initiating, think to yourself and you're in your mind, this is what is really happening. Okay, but let's go back to the, you know, if you just really need to say no in that moment. One of our favorite tips is to suggest to your partner something different the two of you could do to feel connected in that moment. Because your partner is wanting to feel emotionally connected to you. And, you know, unfortunately, often when it's like the no, it feels really awkward and disappointing it. You're like, okay, I guess we're just going to opposite ends of the house now and not talking for a little

while. And it's like that's the exact opposite of what your partner was hoping for whether it was sex or just any kind of connection. So when you're suggesting that, you can also share with your partner the specific reason why you're not open to. But what I really love doing is connecting it to how you want to show up with your partner during sex. So if your partner initiates and you just say, I have a headache. Like that sounds like the oldest excuse in the book. Your partner's like, okay, whatever, you have a headache. Okay. But if you say to your partner, hey, I really appreciate the vulnerability that it took to initiate. I really want to connect with you, but my mind is just spinning from this awful day that I've had. And I know that I'm not

going to be able to show up with you and, like, be fully present with you in the way that we deserve, you know, in the way that we like to feel connected. Like, that's a night and day difference already. But then suggest something different. Like, I don't think I'm open to sex tonight, but how would you feel if we went on a walk together and, like, held hands? Or could we get into bed naked and just cuddle and hold each other close? Or could you give me a little bit of a massage, you know, whatever it is, but like suggesting something different so it doesn't feel like it's this abrupt no and we're not even having any sort of connection with each other at all. I mean, I think the interesting thing with that is that that inherently expands the timeline

of things. You're adding emotional or suggesting emotional intimacy. There's a decent chance that you may actually feel more in the mood after you have done that thing that you have suggested. It's very often, it's like we need to find a way to almost like extend the clock a little while. But at the very least, yeah, that does give you the emotional connection that both of you are really looking for. My husband always says to me, he never says, do you want to have sex? Or says, do you want a massage? And we like, you know, I'm never going to say no to massage. So funny.

It's just the same playbook. I have another question, practical question, which is for couples who are in a season of having kids, going through postpartum is obviously, a very for anyone who's new to postpartum it's very different phase you know you're not cleared to have sex for quite a while and then it's probably going to take you a while till you even want to think about

having sex again and I noticed for me in postpartum that long break can kind of be hard to break after that it's like going to the gym I don't know if it's too simplistic but I think sex is a lot like going to the gym you don't always want to go but you always feel great that you went

but when I don't go the gym for a while it's then hard to get myself to get go again. And I really felt that in my first postpartum and it's something I'm conscious about going into my next postpartum this year of there has to be conversation around that and how you can break that kind of dry style of not having sex. I call this sexual inertia. If you remember inertia from like high school physics, the whole like an object in motion stays in motion and object at rest stays at rest. The same is true when it comes to sex. So when we are having sex regularly, it just feels easy to keep having it regularly. But once we stop having it, every day that goes on that we don't have it, it feels harder and harder and harder to imagine getting back in the saddle.

So most couples, we pulled this with our audience before, 91% of couples have been through some sort of significant dry spell. Postpartum is, you know, really common time when that happens. So we need to figure out strategies for, like, getting ourselves back into the swing of things. So you did mention communication, obviously, like we're huge communication fans here. That is a big part of it. So often what happens in any sort of dry spell is couples feel embarrassed about it and they don't want to talk about it. So there's this kind of bury my head in the sand.

Let's not even acknowledge it. Yeah, like, it'll be over soon. And then, like, once that date passes where the doctor said that it would be okay, that everything will go back to normal. But then the problem is it doesn't actually go back to normal. Yeah, you don't feel ready. Yeah. Yeah.

But then at that point it's like, okay, well, we haven't talked about it because I decided I didn't want to talk about it because I thought that it would just all be better by this arbitrary date. And now it's not. But now I can't talk about it because we haven't talked. You know, it's like you've driven yourself crazy. And then you're kind of locked into this, okay, I guess I got to pretend that I'm just not interested and I don't care about this at all. And then your partner picks up on that. And they're wondering like, what, does my partner even notice? Do they even, do they even care?

So we need to talk about sex on an ongoing basis. And this is not like initiating it or saying I'm so horny or anything like that. It's not like 30 shock. Yeah, we need it as a topic of conversation. So maybe it's just, you know, looking at our reels, maybe it's listening to a podcast episode. It's something as simple as selling your partner. Hey, I know we're still in the throes of it or I know life is really complicated right now. but I just want you to know that I miss you and I love you and I'm looking forward to when we're able to connect with each other again.

So just like keep that thread going between the two of you. Don't make sex this taboo topic that you're not even talking about at all. Then second tip is to ease your way back into it. So many couples, male-female couples in particular, we overemphasize intercourse. We even use the word sex and intercourse interchangeably, right? And so when you are especially coming out of postpartum where, you know, birth is a trend. to the body and you may have gone through tearing, you may have pain, you may be afraid of pain. For a lot of women, the idea of intercourse feels really overwhelming and scary. And so

if you're setting that as the bar of that's the only way that it counts as breaking the dry spell or getting back in the saddle, that can feel very overwhelming. So instead, prioritize all the other non-intercourse activities. You can even take yourselves back to like when you were first first starting to become sexually active and like rounding the bases, right? Like Each base was a celebration. There was something exciting about that. Like, go back to that. Redo that again.

So using your hands on each other, your mouths on each other, using a toy, like, those can all feel a lot easier. And then finally, we have what we call our first pancake rule. So, you know, when you're making pancakes, the first one just always turns out a little weird. It doesn't matter what you do. It's just like the first thing is kind of weird. It doesn't flip right. Get stuck.

The other ones are great, but the first one's always a little weird. sex can be like that too. So we like just even using that language with each other of saying like, okay, we're going to have the first pancake. Let's lower the bar. This is not going to be the best sex of our lives. This is not going to be anywhere close to that. But like, let's just get back into it. So if you can have that sense of humor about it and really lower expectations, it can just make it feel so much easier.

Oh, and then finally, we kind of alluded to this. but I think throw the timeline that the doctor gives you out their window. I think, you know, the date's week timeline. The six weeks is, I mean, it's kind of arbitrary, but it's also like, okay, you most likely will not have to go back to the hospital or die if you have sex. It's not like, okay, you're good to have sex and have a really great time. And so I think that, again, when we don't talk about it, the other partner hears the doctor saying that and thinks, oh, okay, well, we should be good to go, right?

versus being able to, you know, discuss this before. Hey, so I know the doctor is probably going to tell us on a certain date that we're good to have sex. You know, my experience from the last time we, you know, the last kid that I had or by, you know, what I've read online or what my friends have told me is that very likely I am not going to feel particularly ready at that point. You know, so I want to get this out in the open now so that we can, you know, we can talk about it. And let's have regular check-ins about how we are feeling about sex. And, you know, let's regularly tell each other. what we miss about our sex life.

So it's like you're creating the structure for having these conversations throughout the time that you're not having sex so that you can still feel connected. You can show your partner that sex is important to you. And you can continue to have those check-ins about how you're feeling so that by the time you are ready, you know, you guys are ready to, you know, do your first pancake. Yeah. Research shows that the average woman says it took her two years postpartum to feel really like herself again sexually.

Yeah, that's not safe. Very different from six weeks, yeah. That's crazy. I mean, it's just a whole thing. Like, everyone's so different. I think that's the whole thing. It's just communicating is so important and not having that expectation of yourself. I think is so important.

This is probably the golden question that you won't have an answer to, but I have to ask it anyway. Is there like a quote unquote normal quantity or a goal quantity of how frequently a couple should be having sex? It is the golden question that everybody wants to know. Because if we knew the answer to it, then we wouldn't have to have any of these conversations, right? Like you just do it X number of times and you're good.

You take it off with KPI. I know. It's very tempting. Like we want to focus on the number. But if you really play it out, like what it would look like to have sex like that, that's purely having sex to meet a quota. That's not going to feel pleasurable. It's not going to feel intimate or connecting.

And like Sanders said, you're going to short circuit. all the communication and miss all the vulnerability and intimacy of that as well. So I know that that's a super unsatisfying answer. So I will give you some data. We pulled 70,000 couples about this and asked them about frequency and 75% of them fell into three different buckets. And they were divided amongst those buckets evenly. So it was 25, 25, 25. And the frequency was two to three times per month, once a month and two to three times per week. Sorry, sorry, two to three times a month Once a week and two to three times a week. So between two to three times a month and two to three times a week.

That was basically like 75% of people fell in that range with everyone really equally distributed within that range. We also surveyed satisfaction. So we wanted to know our people who are having more sex, feeling more satisfied with their sex life. And we really didn't find noticeable differences between those three groups, the two to three times a month, once a month. sorry, once a week. I keep getting that wrong. And two or three times a week, there weren't any noticeable differences in satisfaction. So that was really interesting for us to see that people were feeling, could feel satisfied and happy with different frequencies. Yeah, I mean, we would much rather people focus on the quality of sex that they're having. So, you know, I understand if you

feel right now, like, I really would like to be having more sex. I promise you, the way that you will likely start to have more sex is to focus on the sex that we are having. Let's find a way to make that as pleasurable as possible for both partners. Because very often in most male-female relationships, it is not as pleasurable for the woman as it is for the man. There are far fewer orgasms happening for women. So let's focus on getting the quality up as much as possible. And when the quality is, you know, you're is generally high.

most people fall into a pattern of having sex somewhat more frequently or a more natural pattern because it's something that they're both looking forward to. And also coupled with what we were talking about earlier with being intentional about creating desire together, not just sitting around waiting to feel in the mood for it, like be intentional about creating the space for it. I love that. And then on the quality piece, is that something you guys cover in your membership? Yes, this is one of our favorite things to talk about like.

We all want to be great at sex. We want to be having great sex. But where did we ever learn how to do it? You know, it's like there's so many of us are, it's like we're trying to, we're in the kitchen trying to figure out how to cook, but we don't have any recipes. We've never been taught, like, how to hold the knife and what spices pair well together. So we love teaching the ins and outs, pun intended, of technique and of having more fun with

each other. So we have this membership for couples called Deeper for couples who want. who want to go deeper with each other, who don't want to settle for a relationship that feels like roommates or feels like ships passing in the night for couples who want more emotional and physical intimacy with each other. And that is the technique aspect is definitely a big component of that. We have incredible guides that walk you through step by step, like exactly what kind of techniques to try out with each other. They're illustrated with like beautiful gifts and illustrations so you know exactly what you're doing. And they create this

great framework to use as well where you can like try these things on your partner and you can kind of blame it on the guide in a sense. So it doesn't feel like you're coming up with something brand new and like, did you like that? Did that work? The guides make it really easy to say like, oh yeah, I'm going to try this thing from the guide. What do you think about that? We're into that one. Let's try the next one. Really like that one. Awesome. Yeah. So this is like super, super practical, realistic, attainable foreplay techniques for using your hands, using your mouth, for sex positions. And yeah, I mean, I think the challenge is so much of the advice that you see online are these kind of overly sensationalized tips for like, or you know, or you think of sort of like the old

school cosmo tips where it's like really over the top. Like no one actually wants that or that thing isn't going to work. Like we've tested out every single one of these techniques. are actually attainable, like, you know, almost anyone can do them. And, you know, we really like to be super practical as, you know, as I hope you've heard talking. You know, here goes talk in this episode. And yeah, we have so much fun with the techniques. So you guys have a great job behind the scenes. It's very fun. Oh, could we do a special coupon or code or something for the boss paper audience for anyone that wants to jump in and try it out? Yeah, we would be so happy to. So

And normally the membership is $47 a month, but we'll put together a special package for the boss babes of three months for $97. So you can just go on over to vmtherapy.com slash boss babe and we'll have everything there for you. Amazing. Okay. And I'll put that link in the show notes below for anyone that wants to find it. Thank you so much for this. I feel like I learned so much. And again, I've said it before, but I love having both of your perspectives.

I just feel like it adds so much depth. I feel like everyone listening needs to go send it to their partner. and hopefully their partner will send them the sign-up link and say, should we do this? Because I just think it's such a good investment in your relationship. I really do think for myself, like, when I feel like we're having really regular sex, we're communicating, the relationship just feels better. When you've got that intimacy, the relationship just feels so much stronger.

And your whole life feels better too. Everything. Yeah. We've all had those experiences of, you know, when you're not in a good place in your relationship, everything feels so heavy. You can't even talk about what are we going to have for dinner without feeling like this loaded conversation versus when the two of you are on the same page, like life is so much easier. It's so much happier. You get through things so much quicker.

Like it really, I know so many of us have the tendency to think of sex as just this physical act that we're doing. But it really is so much more than that. When we have real, true, deep intimacy in our relationship, it makes our entire life so much better. So true. Well, I love what you guys are doing. I've been so excited for this episode. I've followed you guys for the longest time and I think your content's amazing. Where can everyone find you on Instagram? Oh, I'm so glad to hear that. Thank you. Yeah, we can, you can come find us on Instagram at Vanessa and Zander. It's Zander with an X. But we design all of our content really to open up those conversations to keep sex top of mind, to keep you laughing. We make a lot of ridiculous stuff like trying out weird. funny. I love it. We have sex positions from the internet. We have a good time there. And, yeah, I think it really helps you feel more comfortable with the topic overall. So, yeah, Vanessa and Zander. Amazing. Thank you guys so much. Thank you. Thanks. Great. It was so wonderful. Wait, wait, wait, before you go, I would love to send you my seven-figure CEO operating system

completely free as a gift. All you've got to do is leave us a review on this podcast because it really supports the growth of this show. This is my digital masterclass where I'll show you what my freedom-based daily, weekly and monthly schedule looks like as an eight-figure CEO, Mama and High Performer, and I'll walk you through step by step how to create this for yourself. It includes a full video training from me and a plug-and-play spreadsheet to literally create your own operating system. It's one of our best trainings and it's worth $1,997, but I will unlock access for you for free when you leave us a review. I know, wild, right? All you have to do is leave your review on the podcast, take a screenshot of it, and then head over to bossbabe.com slash review to upload

it. And then you'll get instant access to the seven-figure CEO operating system. Again, head over to bossbabe.com slash review to upload your screenshot and get access. We are so, so grateful for all of your support and can't wait to hear how the podcast has supported you.