The Bossticks - #110: Rich Roll - Resilience, Mental Strength, A Plant Based Diet, Discovering Yourself, & Forging Your Path

Episode Date: April 17, 2018

On this episode we sit down with Rich Roll. Rich Roll is a fellow podcaster, author, and ultra-endurance athlete. Rich hosts the wildly popular podcast The Rich Roll Podcast. On this episode we really cover a wide spectrum of topics ranging from resilience, mental strength, the benefits of a plant based diet, and the keys to a healthy relationship. We also dive into what it looks like to forge your own path and discover your true self.  To learn more about Rich Roll click HERE To connect with Lauryn Evarts click HERE To connect with Michael Bosstick click HERE Read More on The Skinny Confidential HERE This episode is brought to you by Liquid I.V.  Liquid I.V. is the great-tasting, portable powder drink mix that is changing the way the world hydrates. The hydration multiplier uses the breakthrough science of Cellular Transport Technology (CTT) to deliver hydration to the bloodstream faster and more efficiently than water alone. Available in Lemon Lime and Acai Berry, Liquid I.V. contains three times the electrolytes of leading sports drinks and is free from preservatives, artificial sweeteners or colors. One stick can provide the same hydration as drinking two to three bottles of water. The benefits of proper hydration include improved athletic performance, fighting jet lag, burning calories, decreased signs of aging, and boosted mental clarity. go to www.liquid-iv.com and ENTER PROMO CODE SKINNY15 AT CHECKOUT TO RECEIVE 15% OFF YOUR ORDER This episode is brought to you by THRIVE MARKET. We use Thrive for our online grocery delivery on a weekly basis. They provide the highest quality products and ingredients delivered straight to our door with unbeatable prices.  Be sure to grab our deal by going to to https://thrivemarket.com/skinny to receive $60 of FREE organic groceries from Thrive Market + free shipping and a 30 day trial!" Keep in mind that Thrive Market's  prices are already 25- 50% below retail because they cut out the middleman. And now they are offering $60 off free organic groceries!  

The following podcast is a dear media production. This episode is brought to you by Liquid Ivy, the amazing tasting and portable powder drink mix. So basically, liquid IV is changing and enhancing the way we hydrate. Liquid Ivy uses cellular transport technology, also known as CTT, to deliver hydration to the bloodstream faster and more efficiently than just water alone. So here's the deal, guys. I've used this the whole time we were traveling. I use it when I work out. I use it when I train.

I use it if I'm feeling a little bit slow after a night out on the town. So let's be honest, just because we're not feeling so hot after a night out doesn't mean we can't do things to help us recover. And Liquid IV definitely helps me do that. I really, really hate hangovers. I hate feeling dehydrated. My skin suffers. I suffer. I don't like it.

So Liquid Ivy has been a partner of the show for the last couple of months. and we really, really cannot say more amazing things about the brand. So for those of you that want to try this product, the team at Liquid Ivy is offering all of our listeners 15% off at checkout when you enter code Skinny 15. Definitely try this if you're jet lagged, if you're a little hungover, a little slow, if you're feeling a little bit, you know, like you need a little bit of hydration in the body. So go to Liquid dash ivy.com and enter code Skinny 15 at checkout to try the product.

She's a lifestyle blogger extraordinaire. Fantastic. And he's a serial entrepreneur. A very smart cookie. And now Lauren Everts and Michael Bostic are bringing you along for the ride. Get ready for some major realness. Welcome to the skinny confidential, him and her. Welcome back to the skinny confidential, him and her show.

If you are new to the show, thanks for joining. This week we have a fellow podcaster, author and ultra-athlete Rich Roll. Many of you are very familiar with Rich from his podcast, The Rich Roll podcast, which is great. Lauren and I both listened to it. He interviews some of the world's top performers in multiple fields and I can't recommend his show enough. On this episode, we discuss Rich is Crazy, life as an entertainment lawyer turned podcaster, author and ultra-athlet, the pitfalls of addiction, fitness, mental fortitude, picking a career you love, going completely vegan and what it looks

like conquering fear. For those of you who are new to the show, I am Lauren Everett's Bostic. I added Bostick lately, honey. I'm the creator of the Skiny Confidential, which is a blog, a brand, a book, podcast. The Skinny Confidential has become a resource for women all over the world, which has turned into this amazing, insane community. And I'm Michael Bostic. I'm an entrepreneur and business operator. I have specialized in brand building and direct to consumer marketing over the last 10 years, recently turned podcaster, well, right, I guess not too recently now. It's been about two years. And most recently, CEO of Dear Media, a new kind of podcast network with an emphasis on female hosts and voices.

So yesterday we went boating. Boating on the Bay of San Diego. I feel like that's my new calling to boat. Yeah, I mean, it's nice. You had a whole moment where you wanted to dress up. You had the striped shirt. We looked like we were in Venice. You had to do the hat.

You always take it a hair too far. I don't know. Actually, by accident, Mariso and Gilly and our friends, they dress the exact same as me. So we kind of did look like little dwebes a little bit. But I had fun. It was good. And it was a different little Sunday. A different way to see San Diego.

I don't remember the last time we've done something like that. We loved it. No, we had so much fun. We just went out on the boat with Wolfgang. Wolfgang Scilling and Maricio's little boy. And we got to see what it was like to hang out with a kid all day, which was so amazing and fun and he was cool. I like kids. I already told you last time of the birthday party.

I like hanging out with kids better than I do adults. We know you like kids. Kids are cool. Your time clock is like ticking for me. Maricio, if you're listening, got to take a couple more boat lessons, brush up. All right. So this week we are back to L.A. We've been going back and forth to L.A. so much.

It's kind of intense. So we were there all last week. And then we came back to San Diego and now we're back tomorrow to interview some very exciting guests, which I'll be announcing on my Instagram. Yeah. So, you know, we're spending a lot more time in L.A. As I try to get Dear Media up and rolling studios up there now managing all sorts of different talent, signing talent, getting excited. And you know what? I'm actually, I needed a change from San Diego.

besides, you know, it's funny, besides what we did this weekend, it's been a little bit slow. You know, we've lived here my whole life, our whole life. So it's nice to get a little bit of change, at least for the next couple of years. Okay, guys, I have an ask. This is something kind of different. I am wondering if you guys would go rate and review our podcast on iTunes if it has brought you any kind of value. So if you feel that Michael and my tips and tricks have enhanced your life or the guests on

here have brought you any value, please go rate and review and subscribe. It's on iTunes, the skinny confidential, him and her. We would be so grateful. You know, and it's super easy to do. You just do it from your phone, from your podcast up. And you know, it's funny. I just recently did one. The other day, I realized I had never reviewed our show in the whole two years that we were doing it. And so I did a review. And don't worry, I signed my name. You have to go and find a little hidden. Hopefully you said that I was just stunning. If you go on iTunes and then click most recent reviews, you'll see it. I signed office. M.B. You know, and I said,

I'll see. All good things about me. Yeah, you'll see. You'll see. You have to go and read it. Okay. So I want to discuss something random. What I use for laundry. This is actually a question that I get asked.

It's kind of, like I said, it's kind of random, but you know. So for the past six months, I've been using this brand called Planet. And I use this to do my laundry. I do my laundry all the time. I'm super anal about it. Michael will even tell you I fold his underwear. Like, he doesn't like it, which is weird. I mean, I feel like you should be grateful for that.

I just don't need it. Okay. Anyway, I really like planet to do my laundry. I like it because it's independently certified 100% biodegradable. It's not tested on animals. It's unscented, uncolored, and hypoallergenic. And we're going to get into why I like that. So when I was in college, I used Tide.

I feel like we've all been there. We've all used Tide. And it was literally giving me allergies. I even had this like rash on my legs that I swear was from Tide. anyway so now like I said I use planet and if you really think about it it's important to have an unscented uncolored laundry detergent because you're laying your face on the pillowcase every night I like my silk pillowcase with my unscented detergent don't ask for much so if you're experiencing a lot of acne my first thing that I like to tell people is to change your laundry detergent

Michael, you probably don't even know this that you're laying on like really, really great laundry detergent every night. You're breathing that in. It's funny because when I travel, I come home always with zits. Like I have zits all over my face right now. And partially that's travel, but it's also me laying my face on pillowcases watched with this gross random detergent. I don't know. Your skin is just laying on the detergent all night. So it's important for you.

So you should know the brand that I like also makes a dishwasher soap too, which I've been loving. Those little packets are my favorite. you just kind of throw them in the holder and they're so compact and good to go. I mean, Michael wouldn't know what I'm talking about here because he's unfamiliar with the dishwasher. So let's hope he's taking notes. So you can get this whole situation that I just talked about for free because Thrive Market is offering every single one of you $60 in free organic groceries. So for those of you who aren't familiar with Thrive, Thrive Market is a one-stop shop for high-end, high-quality, and highly-discounted groceries, supplements, beauty products, and household supplies. Drive Market guarantees its customers 25 to 50% below retail on all items because it cuts out

the middleman. Thrive Market is offering all TSC, him and her listeners, $60 and free groceries and free shipping with a one-month trial when you go to thrivemarket.com slash skinny. The thing that I like about Thrive is I can grab my Annie's Mac and Cheese while adding Rose Mist Spray to my cart and I can also throw in some unscented detergent. Everything's super curated so you know that you're getting the best of the best. Thrive does all the work for you. The categories are all organized. I hate wasting time. Thrive does not waste your time. Again, that's thrivemarket.com slash skinny. I'm telling you guys, fill the card up with your unscented laundry detergent. You will love it. All right, time for the him and her tip of the week.

So speaking of time, guys, let's talk about batching time. This is a very easy time micromanagement hack that will enable you to take full advantage of your concentration by doing a lot of the same things together at once. So I started noticing that as I was getting busier with my business, that my brain was going from task to task. So sometimes I would be really engulfed in writing a blog post and I would be so into it and then I would have to take a conference call. Or I would be working on my emails and all of a sudden I would have to get on the phone and do a podcast interview. And what was happening is that my brain was going to all these different tasks throughout the day and it started to become just draining on me. So now what I do is I batch my time. So if you wanted to shoot photos for a blog post, instead of

doing a few photos throughout the week or a couple days a week, I would do the exact opposite. So I put them all in one block on one day. So I'll tell my photographer we're shooting on this day of this month and we can just bang out content. Fridays are usually my day to shoot. My team knows that Thursday is a prep night where we set up. everything up for the shoot. We have like this whole wagon situation that just streamlines everything. We put everything in the wagon, put it in the car, and then do the shoot on Friday. So what time batching does here is it's going to reduce the startup and cleanup time, which is amazing. So you don't need to set it up, break it down, rinse and repeat. It's really obnoxious. With time batching,

you're just going to set it up once and you're going to clean it up once. It also gets rid of a necessary clutter. So instead of checking your email 20 times a day, you check it once and you move on. I actually am even guilty of doing this with the text messages. I don't respond right away. I don't have my text message notifications on. I find it incredibly distracting. A lot of my friends get mad at me for this, but I just text back once a day. I don't text throughout the day. I just find it to be super, it's just, it's a huge distraction to be able to text people back on their time. Another thing is it does is it helps with focus a lot. Okay, so it's so much easier to focus on one thing at once. I'm all about a good multitasking moment, but here's the difference. When I get a facial, I batch emails

for an hour. So I lay there for one hour, get my facial, I'm multitasking, right? And I do my emails. So you can still multitask while you time batch, but you just do it in a more efficient way. Whenever I get a blowout, I write. When I get my nails done, I do the DMs on Instagram. I pick activities to do one thing. So essentially I'm still batching while multitasking. Does that make sense? Anyway, time batching, try it. Let me know what you think. And also use your time cube when you do this, your little time block. And you can also Google the skinny confidential time batching for more info on this. I like it. Good one. I like it. So my tip this week is a little bit different. It's about subtracting things from our life, which we're going to get into when you hear the interview with Rich.

but I wanted to kind of touch on it because it got me thinking about how I apply that to my life and how Lauren applies it to hers. So we spend a lot of our time in our life trying to subtract things from our life. And this is not always a bad thing. Subtract bad food. Subtract bad friends. Subtract bad habits, bad relationships. Those are all good things to subtract.

But there's also the idea of adding things to your life to crowd out the bad things, which you'll hear as we interview Rich on this show we talk about. But it's a counterintuitive approach to a lot of people. A lot of people, we're so focused as a culture of what can we remove from our diets, how can we remove things from our workout routines, how can we remove toxic from our lives? All these, it's always remove, remove, remove. And you're accomplishing the same goal sometimes by crowding the bad stuff out with good stuff. So let me give you some context of what I was able to apply to my own life.

When I was a kid, I used to play a lot of video games. And it distracted me from being productive. So I decided to take the time I played playing video games and cut it in half by reading. Maybe you watch too much Netflix or too much reality TV. Maybe start taking a portion of that time in reading or doing something productive. If you eat bad food, instead of trying to go cold turkey right away and start removing things from your diet, why not add some healthy items to accompany it to crowd out some of the bad stuff so that you don't just glutton yourself off of the unhealthy stuff? Maybe like add some celery juice in the morning.

Yes. If you're in a bad relationship or friendship, maybe start adding positive people to your life and see how fast it will put perspective on the bad ones, right? You start surrounding yourself by good people and they start seeing those bad relationships. It's not going to take you long to figure out where the negative energy is and what you need to get rid of. So it's all about adding positive things and not so much about subtracting for me. I really, my whole life, have tried to not limit myself and remove things. I think that's really difficult way to live.

but when you add positive or good things to your life, it's like a full room, right? Like you can only add so many good people until there's not enough room for the bad people left. And I'm using that as an example, but the same thing applies to diet or food or fitness. So try that out. Try adding things to your life.

Speaking of adding things, let's talk about another simple addition, and that is Liquid IV. Liquid IV is a new drink mix that we have been adding to our waters, and it's a game chain. Essentially, liquid IV is a hydration multiplier, that utilizes CTT or cellular transport technology, if you want to get fancy, to deliver hydration

to the bloodstream faster. When you're working out, staying in shape, traveling, having nights out on the town, it's also very important to stay hydrated. We've been putting liquid IV in our bags and pouring in our water bottles when we feel the need to get extra hydration. It's portable and really easy to throw in a bag when you're on the go. Lauren carries them in her purse, and I've been carrying them in my bag ever since they became a partner of the show.

I just, you know, if I'm ever feeling like I need a little bit of a hydration kick, I just pull one out and dump it in one of my waters. It's super simple. It tastes really good. When we were traveling, we brought them on every flight because high altitude, it's really easy to get dehydrated. So in addition to all the little moisturizers and skin products that Lauren was snapping, we also had some liquid IVs that we were throwing in the waters in the morning and during the flight. As you guys know, if you listen to the show regularly, my go-to flavor is the lemon and lime. I love it. It reminds me of the sports drinks that you used to have when you were a kid.

But without all the bad sugars and crap, adding one pack to 16 to 20 ounce of water is the equivalent of drinking three bottles of water and you know we like efficiency. We all know I'm a big fan of staying hydrated. So when I was introduced to electrolytes that you can just throw in your water, I was immediately interested. I mean, obviously staying hydrated is one of the most important things that you can do for your body. And as you will hear on this interview, it's also really, really important for your skin. Pretty much every skin and health expert we've had on says that it's one of their biggest tips is staying hydrated. It sounds so simple and easy, but I feel like so many of us forget. So with liquid IV, it helps the process and helps you stay hydrated. You don't have to worry

about any preservatives, artificial sweeteners and colors. And liquid IV is dairy-free, gluten-free, soy-free, and vegan. So like we said, we take the lemon and lime flavors, but there is another flavor of the assaye-e-e-berry for those of you that like the berry flavor. I'll probably switch back in a couple weeks. Okay, so Liquid IV hydrates you two to three times faster than water alone. Contains three times the electrolytes of sports drinks, throw it in your water, boost mental clarity, add some of your teas if you want extra flavor. And for those of you that are looking for our offer, our unique offer for this show only,

which is 15% off at checkout when you enter code Skinny 15. Definitely try this if you're jet lagged. You won't be sorry. So go to Liquid-I-V.com and enter code Skinny 15. I check out to try the product. Okay, as mentioned earlier and based on the title of this show, we have Rich Roll on the podcast today. I wanted to give you guys a very in-depth introduction to cover who Rich Roll is and give some

background context for the people out there who may be unfamiliar with him. When Lauren and I interview, we really try to get as much value out of the guest as possible so that there's a takeaway for the audience. We're not so interested in the fluff promotional tour interviews. We try and go deep. with this interview we hope it's no different. There are so many facets to Rich and so many different directions that we could have gone. That being said, this conversation covers a broad range of topics, which is not always so common on this show. He has so much life experience and

knowledge, and he's interviewed so many top performers that we admire, and we tried to get as much out of this conversation as possible, which is sometimes a tough strategy to take when interviewing, because the conversation can go into different places. So to give some context and background for Rich role for those of you who don't know. Rich has been an athlete his whole life and had the opportunity to be a highly competitive swimmer. He is a former graduate of Stanford University in Cornell Law School. He started his career as a prestigious entertainment attorney and was on a path of financial freedom and success as an attorney before his career was cut short at the age of 31 because of his trouble with drugs and alcohol. Addiction led Rich astray for close to a decade, alienating friends,

colleagues and family, placing him in jails, institutions, and ultimately rehab. Rich got sober, but found himself 50 pounds overweight, unhappy with his career as an attorney, and as he would describe the furthest thing from fit. A flight of stairs is what kicked Rich into gear. He was winded and buckled over in pain after attempting to climb the stairs. That sounds like me. And as he would say, he foresaw a heart attack in the near future. This life changing and mind-altering epiphany led Rich on the path that many of us only dream of. He has one of the most successful podcasts on iTunes, the Rich Roll Podcasts, which as mentioned, Lauren and I both listened to. He is a published author of two books with a third on the way. He's married in a successful relationship with

four children, Jesus, four. He is completely vegan and has a plant-based diet, and at the age of 51 is an extremely accomplished ultra-endurance athlete. Some of his athletic accomplishments to list a couple include, and I had never heard of these before. The Epic Five, challenge, which is an odyssey that entailed completing five Ironman distance triathlons on five islands of Hawaii in under a week. And Rich has been a top finisher at the 2008 and 2009 Ultraman World Championships in Hawaii, considered by many to be one of the world's most daunting and grueling endurance races on the planet. Ultraman is a three-day, 320-mile double Ironman distance triathlon that circumvates the entire Big Island, limited to only 35 carefully selected,

invitation-only participants from all over the world. So day one involves a 6.2-mile ocean swim, immediately followed by a 90-mile cross-country cycling race, which as day one is not enough as it is. Day two is a 170-mile cycling race, and the event culminates on day three with a 52-mile double marathon run on the searing hot lava fields of the Kona Coast. I don't even know what that meant, but it sounded really cool. Sounds badass. Searing-hot lava field.

So that's hot. Jesus Christ. So you can see why this interview ended up in multiple directions. Without further ado, here is Rich Roll. This is the skinny confidential, him and her. All right. Today, super, super excited. We have the infamous, I'm going to say infamous, Rich Roll on the show.

Rich, welcome to the show. It's great to be here. Infamous maybe for the wrong reasons. I'm happy to be here to talk to you guys. So we were just shooting the shit before we started. and we're saying like you've lived at this point already a very wild life. Well, I'm old. So I mean, you know, I've done a bunch of things.

51's not that old. Yeah. And what you've done, you've jam packed a lot. He started as a very successful entertainment lawyer. You've now run. I don't even know how to describe it. What's called Ultraman? You've done a bunch of those.

What is the Ultraman? No, it's Iron Man, right? No, it's like five Iron Man's. Yeah, no. So I have specialized in these ultra endurance triathlons. And the race that I kind of distinguished myself in is called Ultraman. And it's a three-day double Ironman distance triathlon that circumnavigates the big island of Hawaii. The first day is like a 6.2-mile swim and a 90-mile bike.

And then the second day is 170 miles on the bike. And the third day is a double marathon run, 52-mile run. So walk us through how you go from being a lawyer who you describe as overweight and an alcoholic to where you are now. because I'm looking at you and you look so young. I appreciate that. Thank you. It's been, I'm still trying to answer that question for myself. The short answer is, well, first of all, I was an athlete in college.

I swam at Stanford back in the late 1980s. And when that was over, that was over. And that's sort of around the time where alcohol kind of crept into my lifestyle. And that definitely undermined my potential as an athlete. So I feel like I retired from the sport of swimming without really realizing my potential. And then alcoholism sort of became my career. And on the side, I was going to law school and trying to get a job as a lawyer. Ultimately, was successful in that regard.

I don't really know how I was able to make it through law school because the drinking started to get really out of control at that point. It all kind of, you know, it all kind of like imploded on me when I was 31. And that's a longer story. I'm happy to tell you about if you want. But essentially, I had that moment that you hear about with alcoholics, that moment of clarity and decided, like, I can't live this way any longer. It was, you know, at that moment in time, I was a pretty broken individual.

I was somebody who had a lot of potential as a young person, got into every college I applied to, world-ranked swimmer, like the whole world was open to me. And I really squandered all of those opportunities. So by 31, I was, you know, about to get fired from my law firm job. My parents wouldn't talk to me. I was alienated from my friends and my family. I was untrustworthy. Like, I was in a dark place.

And I ended up going to this rehab in Oregon for 100 days. And that really saved my life. It was like 100 days is a long time to go to rehab. But that was really where I kind of learned these new tools for how to approach how to live. And I ended up coming back to Los Angeles, working as a corporate entertainment litigator at first and later as an entertainment lawyer. but ultimately it was like me trying to jam a square peg into a round hole and I was starting to like have this existential crisis about my life because it just didn't feel like it fit me.

Like I was sort of on this path to trying to achieve the American dream. Like here's what you do. You get into the good college, get to the best law school, get the best job, you know, blah, blah, blah, get the nice car, like all the stuff. So by 39, I was successful in that. Like I had all the stuff. Like I, my career was back on track and, you know, I'd met my wife. we were building a family. Like from the outside looking in, it was all good. Like,

um, but on the inside, I was like really unhappy. I was like, this is not working for me. And I felt cheated because I never really stopped to think like, well, what would make me happy? I was playing the game the way it was presented to me my entire life. Meanwhile, I wasn't taking care of myself physically, even, you know, despite the fact being an athlete in college, like I'd stopped taking, I've stopped exercising and I was just eating junk food for, you know, the better part of a decade. So at 39, I was 50 pounds overweight, depressed, you know, unenthusiastic about my profession, all of these things were going on.

And it all kind of came to a head shortly before my 40th birthday when I had this episode walking up a simple flight of stairs to go to sleep. And I had to pause. I was winded, out of breath. I had tightness in my chest. And it was a scary moment because heart disease runs in my family where I thought, like, oh, man, this is it. like a 39 and like I'm I feel like I'm about to have a heart attack. It was very frightening. And it was

sort of like that moment of clarity when I got sober. I felt like it was being revisited upon me. And I had another chance to once again address like this incongruity and how I was living. And that really set the stage for everything that's followed, changing my relationship with food and my relationship with exercise and fitness that ultimately led me into these ultra endurance races and, you know, frankly to being able to sit here with you. you guys today. So there's, there's so much I want to unpack from that story because there's so much there. Let's, let's start. I think maybe the best place to start for this audience is, you know, there's a lot of young people listening that are starting a career and starting to go down that path.

And a lot of these people, maybe they, you know, they think this is what you do, right? You graduate college. You get the good grades. You get a good job and you go into this, and you follow this path. And then 10 years later, you're in this thing. And you haven't really taken the time maybe to figure out, hey, is this what I want to do? What would you tell to somebody, what would you tell someone that's trying to figure it out? They're starting out. And first, let's talk about them.

And then let's talk to the person that maybe has been on a path for a long time. And they haven't really taken the time to say, wait a minute, do I like what I'm doing? Do I love what I'm doing? And if I don't, what steps are going to take? Because I know you made some drastic changes in some hard sacrifices, you know, quitting a very successful career in pursuing something that you love instead. Yeah.

So to take your first question, like if somebody's listening to this and they're trying to figure it out, maybe they're in high school or college or what have you. The first thing I would say is, and I said this on Gary V's show, it's like you need to commit more than anything else, you need to the path of self-understanding. Like you need to acquaint yourself with who you are and develop that relationship like it is the only thing that matters because it truly is and ultimately the extent to which you are fully integrated. as an individual will dictate the extent to which you will be happy, successful, fulfilled, purposeful, all of these things in life that we aspire to.

Unfortunately, our society is not sort of oriented around prioritizing that kind of internal, you know, journey. That's more of an Eastern thing. So I think it makes it more incumbent upon the individual to take that seriously. And I think we're in a very interesting time right now where this is being discussed on a level that even a couple years ago it wasn't. Like now everybody has meditation apps on their phone and like we're talking about mindfulness and this is all amazing.

And I think it speaks to this kind of existential crisis that I went through and I think that a lot of people go through and we're looking for better solutions. So that would be first and foremost to not skip that, to take that seriously. And that's a lifelong adventure for yourself. Second to that, I would say be patient. You don't have to make this decision. Just because you're 17 or 18. you don't have to know what it is that you're going to be doing with your life. I think it's

insane and ridiculous that we have to pick a major and there's all this pressure like, well, what are you going to do with your life? What's your career? And if you don't know the answer to that at age 19, 20, whatever, that somehow you're off the rails. I think that's bananas. So be gentle on yourself, be patient. You don't have to have it figured out. And the more you're committed to yourself, you will be able to answer that question for yourself. And in the meantime, live lean. Live lean. And invest in adventure. If you don't know, if you're not, you don't have total conviction about what you want to do with your life, then don't certainly don't spend money on, on like, material things. You know, that's the worst thing to do is to like create any kind of debt when you're a young

person. And to the extent that you are able to put together a little bit of money, use that money to travel to expand the horizons of your experience as a young person, because that will better inform the decision tree that you're going to face later on in life professionally. So when you were 40 and you had this epiphany, how did you sort of put your blinders on and just not give a fuck what anyone else was saying? I mean, I wish I could tell you it was as simple as that and then I snapped my fingers. I mean, I'm definitely, you know, I'm as insecure as the next person and I'm a people pleaser and, you know, to to suddenly do a 180 and go, well, I put so much of my life into this idea of being this, you know, corporate lawyer and being a partner in this law firm

and then realizing like, that's not what I want to do. I didn't know what else would be available to myself. The only thing I knew was I was tired of trying to live in accordance with somebody else's rules. That didn't mean that I up and quit my job overnight. But what it did mean was that I was going to start saying yes to the things that were important to me, even if they didn't make sense to anybody else. And they were simple things like, you know, I really like, I really like, you know, I lost touch with these things that had made.

me happy as a young person like swimming and trail running and things like that. So I just decided to start doing it, even if it encroached on my professional life, like, I didn't care. I was like, this is who I am and I'm making a decision to be this person, irrespective of what somebody else is going to say, you know, sitting in their office in Beverly Hills, whatever, I don't give a fuck. So that was the first part of it. And then it was about continuing to do that kind of self-inquiry.

so that when my instincts would arise about what to do next, I could trust those instincts, that they would lead me in the direction that I was seeking, even if I didn't know where exactly that was, as opposed to leading me astray, if that makes sense. It sounds like you almost crowded it out. What do you mean by that? Like you added things instead of subtracting things.

I think that's right. I haven't really thought about it in that way, but I think that's astute. Yeah, I think that's accurate. I just made a choice to start. It's, I think there's this idea, especially in this kind of entrepreneur space, like, hey, you got to quit your job and, like, follow your passion. It's like, maybe that works for some people. That scares the shit. But I don't think it, I don't, I don't think that's really a realistic strategy for, you know, most people, the vast majority of people. It's the same thing with diet. Like, hey, you know, you need to eat like this and you got to do it perfectly. Like, we're human beings. We don't really function that way. So rather than think about like all the things you're going to remove, yeah, think about the things you're going to remove. Yeah, think about the things you're going to. build in and then it will start to crowd out the less important things.

Totally. And I think just trusting like, okay, like, like, I don't know why I'm like going out and doing all this. It wasn't like I had this desire to return to becoming a competitive athlete at the time. I had no idea that that's where this would ultimately lead me. And I think that speaks to the power of just beginning when you don't know where something is, is headed, right? You know it's what you, there's some internal instinct like,

this feels right. Like this is this is I'm gonna keep doing this. Without understanding like well I don't know if this is a profession. I don't care like I'm just gonna keep doing this and you know doubling down on that faith I think was a huge is has been and continues to be a huge reason why I've been able to kind of prevail and do the things that I get to do now. I was going to talk about this later but you know we it's a good time I think it's a good segment to talk about like now when you're a kid and you have you have no fear right just like go jump over there or go run there or go play it. You just do things.

I think as an adult, you start to develop fears, and as those develop, you start to ask yourself more questions. And when you ask yourself all those questions, it holds you back from doing what you're saying, which is getting started and kind of taking the leap. When you kind of made the decision to say, hey, I'm not happy anymore doing this. You know, at the time, I know you had children, your wife, like, how do you navigate that and how do you get past that fear, knowing that you're leaving, you know, a steady income and a good job to pursue something that you may or may not?

And at this point, you've been successful with it. but at the time may not have known if you were going to have that success. Yeah, I mean, I did it very inelegantly. I mean, it took many, many years. And, you know, in truth, I was sort of slowly sliding out of being a lawyer for a number of years. And I didn't actually, you know, shut the book on that until my first book came out in 2012, Finding Ultra. So, and then there were many years of tremendous financial insecurity. And, you know, like you said, like you said, like, I have kids.

I've got a mortgage. I've got, you know, car payments. I have all that stuff that everybody has. And we went through an extended period of time where I couldn't meet those obligations. And it seemed to continue to walk this path that I was on was insane. And had it not been for my wife who was like, you need to keep doing this, this is what you're here to do.

You cannot, like it would have been very easy for me to just do a 180 and spin back to a law firm and get a job so that I could pay the bills. And she's like, that is, that's, that's not forward movement. That's regressive. Like, we will figure this out, but you have to continue on this path that you're on. And that was very difficult and very emasculating for a while as, as the head of household. You know, like, what does it mean to be a man, to be a husband, to be a father when, you know, I couldn't, I couldn't pay certain bills for a period of time. It was very difficult and confusing, you know, because there was no template.

There was no roadmap. it wasn't like, oh, here's some other guy who did it like this. I'm just going to follow his model. Like there was no model for that. You also got into podcasting super early, six years ago, you said. So how did you go from adding things in that you loved to podcasting? How did you get there? Yeah, so I started my podcast in November of 2012.

And I was living in Hawaii with my family at the time. We were living in a, on an organic farm. on the North Shore of Kauai in Yerz. Like it was, it's a whole crazy story. But I was starting to experience island fever. It was like five or six months after my book had come out. I was feeling disconnected from community, frankly. And I had always wanted to dip my toe into podcasting.

Because when I was training for these crazy races, like I would have to do like, you know, five hour, six hour runs or, you know, eight-hour bike rides. Like, I was doing crazy training. And I fell in love with podcasting because I couldn't listen to music for that long. And I'd listen to audiobooks or whatever. Podcasting at that period of time was not cool. It wasn't like something that people were talking about.

And it was kind of wonky. Like you had to download the files on your desktop on iTunes and then bounce them to your MP3 player. Like it wasn't, you couldn't stream them. It wasn't seamless like it is now. But there were still great shows at the time. And like, you know, Joe Rogan was doing it. There were people, you know, Adam Carolla was doing his thing. There were some good shows.

And I was like, why isn't everybody listening? Like, there's some amazing shit here. Like, it's free. Why would you listen to the radio anymore? Like, this is amazing. And I was like this evangelist for it, but nobody was listening. Nobody was like, what? I don't, you know.

I don't get it. It was still too early. Yeah. And even now it's still difficult. The platform has changed a lot. So I started, you know, in 2012 because I thought nobody was doing anything that super interesting or compelling in the hells. space at that time. And because there wasn't a lot of competition, it wasn't like a millions of

people were starting podcasts all the time. I was able to like quickly establish myself at the top of the charts and do this land grab and be able to stay there. And I've been doing it ever since. And I love it. You know, it's amazing and powerful medium. I kind of want to, you're touched on the races. And I want to talk about that. But I also like going back to what we were talking about before with, you know, when you had the fear and you were jumping to different jobs and you're pursuing a different career. I want to talk to you and kind of unpack short-term pain for long-term success, right? Or long-term satisfaction. I think a lot of people, they get in these types of situations and right when you feel like, okay, I have to quit. That's the time when you got to somehow dig deep

and keep going because looking back now, I mean, it sounds like a terrible period of your life, but also maybe looking back now some of the greatest periods of life, you're bonding with your wife and having that support, like having that support from a woman is amazing as a man. Like, a lot of people don't get that. And now as you look back, it's like, okay, maybe that was a couple years of your life of that kind of pain. But doesn't it make everything now so much more satisfactory? Yeah, definitely. I mean, it's certainly more meaningful to me because I had to fight for it and because it was such a difficult road to trudge. And I think it is true. There's a lot of entitlement out there in the world. And there's people that want to just hack their way to some kind of overnight, you know,

success and in my experience nothing of value ever comes that way and I learned very early on in my life that um that success comes when you're willing to double down on the effort you know and I learned that I learned that as a sport like I wasn't a good student as a kid and I'm I was terrible in in all sports like anything involved eye hand coordination like forget it and I was like you know I wore head gear and I had a patch on my eye like I was the last kid pick for kickball. It was, you know, I was not a vision for you. I discovered swimming and it was the one thing that I was like naturally had some talent for. But I wasn't like the most talented kid. And when I aged up and started to, you know, inch into like junior high school and decided that

I wanted to be really good at it, I realized like, oh, these guys are like really good. Like I was on this club team. And in order to bridge that talent deficit gap, I figured out very early that if I doubled down on my output, like my work ethic and would do these sets that no one else would do, that I could quickly make up that space. And that has always been kind of my equation. I've applied it, you know, professionally and in my athletic career and basically everything I do, for better or worse, it's also like not a great trait because it can take you down to some dark alleys. But I think there is, I think when I look back on anything that I've achieved, whether it's professional or athletic or, you know, any of the benchmarks that I've been able to kind of

surpass in my life, I don't think about, you know, like crossing the finish line or like these sort of things that you would think have all this meaning. I think about like, remember that time when like the car got repoed and like we thought like there's no way we're going to save our house, you know, like I think about the hardest times and the darkest times because those times We were able to grow closer my wife and I and grow as a family rather than let that like explode our relationship. You and your wife sound like teammates. Michael and I look at each other like teammates. Can you give some advice out there to anyone that works with their significant other?

I'm saying this selfishly for myself. Or just wants a healthy, successful relationship because I think teammates is a good way to look at it. Yeah, for sure. my wife and I do work together. We don't work together on everything, but we kind of come together on a variety of projects, books and retreats and things like that. And I would say, you know, first of all, we're extremely different people, like just fundamentally, completely different, the way that we approach our work, all different kinds of things. But we have a shared set of values. And we're totally in line in terms of like where we want to go and what's important to us.

So I think that's crucial in any relationship. You can be, you know, somebody can be, you know, a kooky crazy person and the other person super organized and all that kind of stuff. Those differences are immaterial if you share that core set of value. So I think that's super important. And I think what we've learned doing this for many years is that it becomes, it's a beautiful thing to like collaborate with your point. partner on stuff. But you also have to, um, exert a lot more energy around healthy boundaries around

when you're working and when you're not. Because ultimately every conversation will be about like, hey, when are we doing the podcast or who are we booking next and what's going up on the, it'll just be all work all the time. Are you taking notes? I'm not fucking kidding. Yeah. Mental notes. And it's and you could kind of, it gets, the lines get blurred, right? Because you're like, it's fun to talk about work stuff. And that is kind of like your personal life at the same time. But you have to figure out like, okay, time out. Like now we're going to just not talk about this. We're going to focus on like something that's going to promote the intimacy of our relationship. So there's a middle ground, I think because you run into rel-I have some friends that and guys and girls, they run it where they

want to talk about those things and their limit. It's like, nope, works over, can never talk. And I think that is limiting and kind of repressive. And then you have the other side where it's too much. Maybe we fall into that camp a little bit. Yeah, like at 11.30 at night when I'm in bed with my retainer on, I don't want to talk about work. Just so you know. Noted. So let's talk about your kids. You have four.

That's a lot of kids. So lots of kids. I mean, we live way out in the boonies in Malibu Canyon. We have a little bit of a commune compound out there. And you sleep on the roof, right? I sleep in a tent. I had to move the tent off the roof onto the ground because it was too windy. Wait, what?

Yeah. You didn't know that? Yeah. No, no, I don't know if I dug that deep. Well, let me just like lay the ground work here. So, yes, my wife has two boys from a previous marriage, but they've lived with us since they were like five and six years old. And they just actually moved out. Like, and our nephew lived with us as well.

So my boys are 23, 22. And then our nephew was 26 was living with us. They just got an apartment in Echo Park with a friend. And I have two daughters that are 14 and 10. And we've always taken in like. random people, you know, like they're friends. We've got a teepee. We've got these containers.

Like we have like the ability to like house a couple extra people. So I think like a year and a half ago, we had like nine people living in her house. It's been crazy. Like I, and my wife is always like she's eternally creating. Like I'll come home and walk in the house and they'll be like three people I've never seen. Like who are these people? You know, like I never know what's going on.

But now that the boys moved out like we're kind of like now it's just my wife and our two daughters and it feels like empty nests. I mean, we're a family of four. two dollar whatever normal but it's like where's everybody like why is it so quiet you know feels weird um but but yeah i started sleeping in a tent like a year and a half ago i mean i struggle with sleep quality and sleep super important to me if i don't sleep well like i just can't function and my wife um julie she likes a bedroom really warm and i like it cold i just sleep better when it's cold so nobody would get what they want it like we would kind of set the thermostat in the middle

and she'd be under all these covers freezing, and I'd be sleeping on top of the cover, sweating. And one day I was like, I was like, this is not working. Yeah, and our bedroom kind of opens out right out onto a flat roof. So I was like, I'm just going to get a tent and sleep out there. Because we had done sleepovers on the roof with kids, you know, during the summertime. And I could remember, like, I would always sleep great, you know, under the stars. And I was like, well, I could do that all the time.

And so as an experiment, I like went to REI and I got a tent. And I put like a, Casper is a sponsor of my show. So they sent me like a, just a twin mattress that I put in the tent. And I was like, I'm going to sleep out here. And I had like the greatest night's sleep. Like I was like, this is amazing. And she was happy. Yeah.

And it was like she was happy because she got to. Yeah. She got to make it nice and warm. And I got to see it, whatever. So everyone thinks like, oh, you must be having marital problems or you've been kicked out of the bedroom. It's not that at all. Yeah, it's called the thermostat. We have like a very intimate relationship.

But yeah, so I've been doing it for like a year and a half. And like I love it. And you know what it is also? It's kind of a, it's an experiment in stoicism. Like my office is a shipping container that I like tricked out into like a workspace. And so now the tent's like right next to that. And I live in a beautiful home that's like, I mean, my life is like, I'm so grateful. I have, you know, so much to be thankful for.

But the practice of like sleeping in a tent and like working in the shipping container sort of like, well, if it all goes away, you know, if Julie leaves me and like I lose the house, whatever. Like if like I could I could still like I'm happy sleeping in the tent. Like it's reframed my relationship to the material world in a fundamental way. And I think a positive way. A lot of stoicism. I have. Yeah. Is it Seneca says you know, practice poverty?

Yeah. That's what it is. It's like it is a practice in that regard. I'm going to put you on the tent tonight outside. That's a good idea. I might not have a choice. So I just get thrown out on the tent. It should be his decision, though.

I don't think it's going to work if you're going to make it to do it. Wait a minute. You're allowed to have your own decisions? I'm kind of obsessed with successful people's morning routine. I feel like a lot of people are, but I'm very much obsessed. Can you walk us through what time you wake up, what you do when you wake up? Give us all the little details. If there's something that you use, a product, I use a tongue cleaner.

Do you? Yeah. Yeah, I mean, it varies depending upon the seasons and like what I'm currently obsessed with. Like, if I'm training for an important race, then physical training in the morning will take priority. If I'm working on a book, then it's going to be more about writing and creativity. So it kind of depends on what season I find myself in. But in general, the first thing is my morning routine starts the night before, sort of preparing

myself to get a good night's sleep because, like I said, like sleep has been tricky for me. Like when I'm training really hard, let's talk about sleep a little because I think I suffer too. And before, I know you want to get into the morning, but I want to know how you get better sleep because it's something that I struggle with as well. So for me,

yeah, for me, I have to like be home. I have to go to bed early. I need eight hours of sleep. And I need to make sure that I'm like spacing my meals out throughout the day so that when I eat dinner at a reasonable hour, I'm not going like right to,

Like, I'm not, like, picking up Chipotle on the way home at 11 o'clock at night and then just immediately go into bed and crashing because then I'll wake up in the middle of the night. It's 3 o'clock in the morning. I'm alert. Like, I get all screwed up. And I think this is part, like, when you start to get older, like, it gets trickier. So, yeah, it's about, like, making sure my nutrition is solid throughout the day. It's making sure that after a certain time, like, basically, like, you know, 7 or 8 o'clock,

like I put the phone away and I start to like de-escalate my day rather than just being all manic and then just getting into bed, right? So I have to like kind of do that. We just got a clear light infrared sauna. So started experimenting with doing sauna at night as well before bed. And then like a tea, like a bedtime tea with a teaspoon of magnesium is also helpful before sleep. So that would basically be it at night and then get in the tent. And then I wake up, if I sleep well, like I'll get up between five and six naturally. I don't set an alarm.

Our daughters don't have to go to school until about 8.15. So I'm always awake well before that. So I rarely set an alarm. And then in the morning, I do 20 minutes of meditate. Well, I brew like a coffee or a tea. I like the four-sigmatic mushroom coffees in the morning. So I'll do that one with cordyceps. is usually my go-to.

And then 20 minutes of meditation, and then journaling for anywhere between 20 minutes to an hour. I'm a big fan of Julia Cameron's program, The Artist's Way, which I've been doing. I literally just read a log post on it. Oh, you did. It's changed my life. It's so good to get your creative juices going. Yeah. I started doing it in 1998.

Wow. Oh, my God. And I've been doing it ever since. And I go through phases, like, where I'm super actively doing it and then I'll take breaks. but like morning pages has been part of my life since I got sober. Can you explain the morning pages to the audience? I wrote a blog post on it. You guys,

you can Google it. But also can you just give like a quick description to them so they know. Sure. So Julia Cameron wrote this book called The Artist's Way because she was working with creative people, mostly writers who were feeling stuck, who are having writers block. And she had figured out these tools and these strategies to kind of break through creative blocks. And then she ended up kind of traveling around and like doing groups and teaching these tools and strategies, and then she ultimately put it into this book, The Artist's Way, which is essentially

a program that gives you kind of this 30-day routine of things that you do throughout the week to unlock creativity, to make you unstuck, not necessarily just as a writer, but in whatever creative pursuit you're trying to express more fully. And one of the core tools that's really kind of the foundation, the fundamental aspect of this whole thing, is doing something called morning pages, which is writing longhand three pages every morning, shortly about upon waking up. And the idea isn't to like write a novel. It's just to get out of your head whatever is going on so that you can kind of clear the channel for what's coming later. No judgment. No judgment. No one's ever going to read it. You could just write,

fuck I hate writing this a thousand times over, whatever you want to write. And there's something that happens like around, you know, when you're about two and a half pages in. And then you're like, oh, that's what's going on with me. That's been my experience. and it's been an incredibly powerful exercise in in really connecting myself to myself, which is what we were talking about at the outset of the podcast, right? And so I couldn't recommend it more strongly enough as a way of not only deepening that relationship with self, but also helping you to, you know, unlock or burst through those blocks that are preventing you from expressing at your highest level. Yeah, you guys got to check that blog post out.

What's your breakfast? Usually a green smoothie is basically all that I need and the recipe changes depending upon what we have in the fridge. But it's essentially, it always starts with dark leafy greens. So kale, spinach, chard, usually beet greens and like half a beet would be good. It's an endurance boosting food because I usually train right after that. Then a lot of berries, blackberries, blueberries, strawberries, some coconut water, then maybe some. some superfood stuff like chia seeds or ground flax seeds. And what else?

Maka powder. I mean, there's all different kinds of things going to. I roofie Michael smoothie with maca because it's supposed to be good for the testosterone. It is good for the testosterone. It's a taste adjustment. It has like a bit of a chalky flavor to it. Yeah.

And that's usually like enough to get me out the door. Like I don't eat like a huge breakfast. If I'm super hungry, then I'll eat like some gluten-free. those with almond butter or like cold quinoa works well as almost like a breakfast cereal replacement. So cold quinole with berries and coconut milk, something like that. That sounds really good. Yeah.

And you're vegan. So how did you make that transition? Because that's a big transition as well. I mean, I've heard that you, that's something else that you crowd stuff out with. You add extra vegetables and fruits to kind of crowd out the other stuff and it's a slow transition, not quick.

And why decide to go vegan? Yeah. Yeah, so I've been vegan for 11 years, taking it back to that staircase episode, that frightening moment where I was 50 pounds overweight and just felt like shit, I was depressed. Like, I just, I was like not doing well. And I realized that I needed to change my relationship with food because I would literally hit Jack in the box or In-N-Out burger or Taco Bell or Pizza Hut like every day. And it began with a seven-day vegetable juice cleanse, which was sort of like me going to rehab for food. Like I needed to do something drastic, not like, oh, I need to detox all these toxins. It was like, I just need to do something insane, like something so far out of my experience

that it would kind of shock me out, like reboot my operating system. So I did that. It was terrible and super hard and like, you know, I don't know. It was, it made me, like I'd never gone a single day without eating solid food my whole life. So I was really forced to meet my maker on that. But by the last day of that, I felt incredible. Like, I couldn't believe how much energy I had, and I hadn't eaten any solid food. And it made me realize, like, I wonder if I can find a way of eating where I can feel this way all the time.

And that's what kind of launched me into this experimentation adventure over the next six months of trying a bunch of different diets and really not doing it very successfully. And I wasn't super educated about what I was doing either. And ultimately, it kind of played that out and felt like I'd tried everything. and I was as fat as ever and as lazy as ever and back on the couch, you know, watching late-night TV when I realized like, well, the one thing I hadn't tried was like going totally plant-based, like get not just vegan, but like no processed foods, just plants close to their natural state, nothing with a mother, nothing with a face. And it sounded so severe and restrictive, you know, that's why I hadn't tried it. I was like, I don't want to, that sounds terrible. Like,

what am I going to eat? But I felt like I had to check. that box before I could go back to eating check in the box guilt-free, you know, so I decided I would try it. And within a week of making that switch, it was undeniable, like how much better I felt. Like, I felt like I did on that last day of that cleanse. And I realized, like, I was on to something that was really agreeing with me. And then I began to kind of educate myself about how to do it right so I could continue to do it. And so through this process. It's been 11 years. Wow, it's pretty crazy. No, no meat, no dairy. Wow. No fish, no eggs, nothing. Wow. And do did this kickstart your, you've been an athlete your entire life, but did this kickstart your

interest in endurance racing again? Or is this, once you got to that place? So can you kind of walk us through what that looks like? Now you're in your 40s. You're completely plant based. You've kicked addiction and you say, I'm just going to go and start running like crazy and racing. Yeah. So what happened was suddenly I had this resurgence of energy that I hadn't felt like since I was like 18. I was like, I had, I didn't know what to do with myself. But I literally like my knee would, you know, I couldn't sit still. My wife was like, will you please go outside and like do something?

So that's what got me interested in exercise again. Like I just pulled an old pair of running shoes out of the closet and started jogging. And my Julie brought me a bike for my birthday and went back to the pool occasionally. And I was just enjoying connecting with myself in a physical way. And that's what reminded me like, hey, I used to really like this when I was a kid. And I just wanted to do more and more.

And again, there was no design on being a competitive athlete. But then what happened was about three or four. four months into this little experience, I went out for a run. And I hadn't run more than like an hour, you know, my, in this whole deal. But it was one of those days where, you know, just, you know, when you have those days and you feel great and you feel like you can just go all day. It was like, it was one of those days. So I was like, I'm just going to keep running. And I just kept running and running and running. I ended up running like 24 miles on this trail, uh, dirt moholland, like that

tracks above, you know, like the, all the hills and Topanga Canyon. And I'd never, I'd never done anything like that before. I couldn't believe that I could run that far. Like I just blew my mind. So I thought like, well, I've just unlocked some dormant gene that I didn't know that I had. Or like this plant-based diet is like, it's like rocking my world. Like, you know, most people would, it just, it basically upended like every assumption that I had about my own capabilities and the relationship between food and performance.

And that's what got me interested in potential because it had only been like three or four months. And I was like, I've lost all this weight, like my skin's better. I feel fantastic. I'm going out and like running these crazy distances. Like what is going on? And moreover, more importantly, where are these other areas of like potential that I'm just blind to right now? You know, because I, if I could change so drastically by making a couple simple changes

over three or four months, like what else am I not seeing? And that's what got me interested in ultra endurance sports because it's like this template where there's unlimited potential to like explore those questions in yourself not just physically but like mentally emotionally and spiritually so the mental side of it there's something you i don't know if you know if you even touched on it but you did which is once you realize you could do something it was kind of like oh what else can i do like what's the net like i ran 24 miles can i go more can your sense of what's normal changes yeah right so like you start this podcast you have this blog or you have your instagram whatever it is you're like oh, wouldn't it be insane if I had, if this many people were listening.

But then when you achieve that and then you're like, well, that's just normal, right? So it changes your perception of what's possible. Very true. So let's talk about motive, like the motivation behind a lot of this because it starts as something you just, to be healthy and to get interested in activity again. But you obviously took it to an extreme level. And you've done a lot of competitions and you've done things that most people can only dream of. How does how does what minds?

do you have to be in to start competing at that level? Mm-hmm. Well, what mindset do you have to be in to start competing at that level? I mean, I think you need to... Or what's the motivation? Yeah, well, for me, I mean, I can only speak to my own experience. I mean, my motivation was purely, I mean, selfish has a negative connotation, but it was sort of self-interested. It was like, I want to be healthy. I want to feel good.

I don't want to be that 40-year-old guy walking around with a, you know, a tire around his belly, like every other dude. I feel like I still have something to say athletically. And I want to explore where this plant-based diet could take me. Like, it was like, it was just this weird challenge that I, that I set for myself without any regard for whether anybody else would be interested in it. Why would they be interested in it? It's just me, like, trying to kind of live a little bit more authentically. And what happened was I go and I do these races and I do quite well. So that ends up getting some media attention.

They're like, wait, this guy's like 43. and he just crushed this race and like he's vegan? Like how does that work? You know, so a lot of people wanted to talk to me. And that's what led to this book deal. And I write this book and the book is well received. And so suddenly, like, I'm in this weird position that I never ever imagined that I would be in

as being sort of this spokesperson for, you know, plant-based athletics, I guess you could call it. And also for recovery and the power of, diet and nutrition to be this portal for greater self-actualization. And so then my focus shifts away from like, well, what can I do? Or like, who cares how fast I can ride my bike? Like, how can I be of service to other people? The book that I wrote began that conversation. It introduced people to some ideas that perhaps were new to a lot of people. And then I started the podcast to continue that conversation so that I could get interesting people and progress in my own growth and share that

experience with other people. So now what gets me excited isn't like, hey, I wonder if I can go do some crazy thing. I'm 51. Like, you know what I mean? Like, I can go, there's always somebody doing something crazier. You know, you can't, I can't chase that rabbit hole forever. And like, who really cares? The only thing that's important or that matters to me is how can I take these experiences that I've had and what I've learned and translate them in a way that it can be, as profoundly helpful in a very substantive and sustainable way for the most number of people. So what would a piece of advice be to somebody who's looking for a way to motivate themselves? They're struggling.

Maybe they haven't found that workout. They haven't found that diet. They haven't found that motivation to get themselves up and going. What would you tell them? Because it sounds like, you know, it's a very individual thing. It's a very, you know, a lot of people do it because they're focused on the external what other people are going to think. A lot of people, in your case, it's more from, you know, it's more from an individual. internal. What's something that somebody could apply to their life to get themselves motivated now?

Well, you listen to my podcast with David Goggins, right? He's like motivation's bullshit. Like motivation is temporal. It's temporary. It doesn't it's not a sustainable source of energy. What you need is purpose, right? Purpose is harder. Purpose requires that internal journey, right? That that that like deep, profound level of connection with self to understand what makes you tick such that the, the external manifestation of your life is the journey of pursuing that. And that's hard, right? And it's ephemeral and it's like vague. Like, what does that mean?

So to the extent that somebody's listening who doesn't have that purpose, I would say trust in yourself and be patient. Like I said earlier, continue to try to unlock that in yourself. And in the meantime, I think motivation is great. You know, and if you're having a crisis of motivation and you can't get yourself out of bed or all of those things, I think there's a couple. tools and tricks that I've used that have been helpful. The first is this mantra that I use called Mood follows action, which is to say that you need to distinguish like how you feel about something

with the reality of the situation. It actually doesn't matter how you feel about it. Like, oh, I don't want to do this. I don't want to do that. If you wait until you feel like doing it, you're probably never going to do it. So the trick is to become the observer of that thinking state or that emotional state and make the decision that you don't have to engage with that. Like, yeah, I don't feel like doing it, but I'm going to shut that off and I'm going to go do it anyway. And in my experience, in the experience of most people, when you do that, then you will look back on that and say, oh, I'm so glad. Like, you never regret it, right? So if you want to change your emotional state, the action has to come first. You can't wait until your emotional state changes to then pursue

the action, if that makes sense. Great advice. So that would be the first thing. And the second thing is is to break things into like the smallest chunks possible. You know, people say to me like, oh, you're running these crazy multiple day races. Like, how do you do it? What do you do when you get tired? You just like, you know, you can't think of like how long it is. You just have to say, I'm going to get to the next street lamp, right? So if you're, let's say, let's just use jogging as the example.

Like, you wake up, it's cold out, it's raining. You don't want to get out of bed. Well, rather than think about like how hard it's going to be. to do that run. Like, how about just like, why don't you just sit up in bed? You know, like, okay, you did that. Now put your feet on the ground. Like, it's taking those little action.

Like, okay, I can do that, right? And before you know it, it's A to B. Exactly. Break things down in the smallest increments possible. And then don't hold yourself to some perfectionist standard. Like I said earlier, like it's okay. You're a human being. You're not going to do it perfectly.

And I think what happens is when people fail, then they beat themselves up, which is they've then made that. second mistake. And they often then talk themselves out of the game altogether. Like, oh, it's too hard. I can't do it. Forget it. And they just go back to however they were living before that. You've interviewed some amazing people. Louis Howes, Tim Ferriss, Aubrey Marcus. David Goggins. David Goggins. What is the best advice that you've received? I know that's going to be hard, but what are like some nuggets that you could share with our audience? Or a reoccurring theme that you continuously see with successful people.

Mm-hmm. Yeah, it's different. Everybody, everybody has their own path and their own journey. And as much as I would like to be reductionist and say, well, this is the morning routine that you need to have because these people have it. And this is how they approach their life. Like, in my experience, it's much more nuanced and complicated than that. But I would say that the people that inspire me the most are the people that have had to weather the dark night of the soul. You know, so whether it's David Goggins having to transcend like his abusive upbringing to become this, you know, incredible human that he is today or, or anybody that's had to, you know, had challenges in their past that have forced them to confront themselves in a very profound way in order to come out the other side, those are the people that, um, that tend to deliver a message that resonates with the most power. rather than just saying you should do this or you should do that, like people who have actually lived it, right? And I think that what can be mined from that is, you know, I think we all have our version of that dark night of the soul. Like, you know, my wife calls it our divine moment, like having to go through something very difficult.

And we have this impulse to try to get out of that as quickly as possible. or if you see a friend who's going through that, you want to save them, right? But I think those experiences are what shape and form us. They're what forge character. They're what, they're the experiences that reflect back to us what is most important to us.

And so I think, like anybody who's going through that, like I think we just honor those people and trust that they will come back from that experience with wisdom that can be shared and beneficial. to everybody. And that wisdom is different. Like I know I'm not specifically answering your question,

but I think that, I think beneath it all is this fidelity to being the most authentic version of themselves. When you go through those experiences, you start looking for real answers and start trying to figure out who you really are. And if everything's just cush and everything's fine and success and all that,

then you're not really looking. It's like, oh, this is great. forced to confront who you really are. Exactly. Right. I think that's, that's, that's the first part.

Um, and it's easy to just get along to go along, right? Until something gets pulled out from underneath you. And like we, none of us can escape life. Like, we're all going to face some version of,

you know, crisis in our own life. And those are the, those are the experiences that will, like I said, like reveal who you are to yourself or show you what, what you're here to overcome and grow. I will tell people it's,

you know, it's easy to look at successful people and say, oh, like they have it so easy. But for somebody that's never, if they've never been through something, I actually look at those people and feel sorry because there's going to be a time where inevitably life's going to hit you in the face. And the longer you go through life before that happens, the less tools you have to deal with it. And it's like you've gotten so used to being comfortable or you've gotten so used to being successful.

And then boom, something happens. And you're like, oh, shit, maybe I don't have the tools to deal with this. So on the other side of that, people that haven't been through things, you have to also save a place to honor them and realize that when that happens, it's going to be very difficult for them. So don't pass, I don't think use your past judgment on the ultra successful or the people that may not. No, of course not. And I think wherever you find yourself on that spectrum, my message to that individual is, is how real are you being? Like, are you really pursuing what is most important to you? You know, at 51, it's like, I'm starting to think about my mortality in a way that

like just never occurred to me even in my 40s. And we're just not here that long. And ultimately, we're all going to be gone in a snap of the fingers. And like, no one's going to remember us and no one's going to care. So make that time count and stop listening to what everyone else thinks that you should do and start figuring out how to listen to yourself and pursue that. I love that advice. I always say beat to the tune of your own drum.

Do it your way. But I would say this with the caveat that. if you are disconnected from who you are, if you haven't invested in that process of really integrating yourself, then you are probably going to chase the wrong goal, you know, because you'll be like, you'll, you'll be so easily influenced by whatever the stimuli is around you that you'll be like, oh, that's what I want without really understanding like, actually, that's not what you want, because you don't even know who the fuck you are. Like, you need to really know who that is before you make those decisions so that you can trust those instincts and make sure that you're

blazing the path that is best suited for you. Start saying yes to things that you love. You're writing a book, or you're coming out with a book in two weeks? Third book. Third book. Yeah, so Julie and I have a brand new cookbook coming out, April 24th, the Plant Power Way, Italia. It's our second cookbook collaboration, her third cookbook.

So we're really excited. It was inspired by we do these retreats in Tuscany every year where we take a group of like 40 people through seven days of, transformation, like intense workshops and tea ceremony and meditation and relationship stuff and trail running. Like, we have an amazing time, but it's also like pretty intense as well. And Julie designs the menu and we work with the chefs of the region. And so the cookbook is like 125 plant-based recipes inspired by the cuisine of that part of the

world. So we're super excited about it. What's it called? The Plant Power Way Italia. And where can they find it? You can find it wherever you buy books, Amazon, Barnes & Noble. On my website, richroll.com, you can get signed copies. Okay.

And where can they find you on your podcast and your Instagram, Pimp yourself out? Oh, okay. Well, wherever you listen to find podcasts. You know, iTunes, a Richroll podcast. You know, I'm on SoundCloud. I'm on wherever you listen to podcasts. Everything I do can be found at richroll.com.

And I'm on Twitter and Instagram at Richroll. Also have some online programs, a meal planner and things like that. If you want to learn more about that, just visit my site. And if our audience wants to start with one podcast episode, where would you tell them to start? Well, give me a sense of your, I need to envision the human being. Like, what kind of person? It's someone I think that wants to be the best version of themselves. Looking for answers.

Yeah. I mean, that's really the theme of my show is like, how do we unlock and unleash the best, most authentic version of ourselves? And every guest that I have on speaks to that in some unique way. and I have, you know, it's wellness oriented, but I have entrepreneur. I've had, you know, Gary V's of the world on the show as well, and athletes and doctors and psychologists and things like that. I think if somebody's really looking to become their most authentic self,

I think a really good one that I had on recently that speaks to that is Susan David, who is a Harvard psychologist. She wrote a book called Emotional Agility and did an amazing TED Talk. You can Google her TED Talk and watch that. And it's all about the importance of confronting head-on the difficult emotions that we have in a culture that tells us like, oh, just pretend it didn't happen. You know, and how, whoops. Is that me? I don't know who that is.

Sorry. Mine. So, yeah, Susan David would be a good one. And I have, you know, I've doctors, nutritionists, like, whatever. I've had musicians on, all different kinds of people. Thank you so much for coming on. That was amazing. We'll have to have you back on again.

I want to go hit some trails. Yeah, you got to hit some trails. You need a green juice. Get a tent. Yeah, you need a lot of things. Casper's a sponsor here. Casper, send me a twin. I got to get on the roof.

You should. And I would just say like where you have this incredible view out the window of your studio up on the hills and like I don't know how you just don't want to like break the window and go outside right now. It's a beautiful day. Yeah, Michael. Get out for a run. It's tough.

Okay. So I feel like is this, did they shoot entourage in this building? Was this Ari's office? Because I feel like Ari's office had the same view. I took over Ari. Yeah, that's, no, I'm just kidding. Did you? No, no, no, no.

Thank you for coming on. Thank you. Thank you. Wait, before you go. So, do you guys want to get a short email from the Skinny Confidential? Tipsy Thursday is a super valuable quick email. It includes five tips. My favorite song of the week.

My favorite show. My latest book. Wellness tips, random tricks. Super easy, quick, to the point, short. So all you have to do is check out the skinny confidential.com and click Lauren Everett's and then subscribe. Drop your email in the box and you'll get the next one. And then please, please, please, like I said, if this podcast has brought you any kind of value or the guests on it have, please rate, review, subscribe and then screenshot that review and send it to Ask Lauren, L-A-U-R-N at the skinnyconfidential.com.

And for that, we will send you my five beauty secret. straight to your inbox. Thanks for listening, guys. This episode was brought to you by Liquid Ivy, the amazing tasting and portable powder drink mix. Liquid Ivy is changing and enhancing the way we hydrate. Liquid Ivy uses breakthrough cellular transport technology, also known as CTT, to deliver hydration to the bloodstream faster and more efficiently than just water alone. It comes in two flavors. I like the lemon and lime. It also comes in Oscei Berry. Liquid Ivy can hydrate you up to two to three times faster than water alone and contains three times the electrolytes of leading sports drinks. It's free from preservatives, gluten-free, soy-free, dairy-free,

and vegan. It's also free of artificial sweeteners and flavors. So pour some in your water and enjoy. Liquid IV is providing all TSC listeners with 15% off at checkout. So head over to liquid dash iv.com and intercode Skinny 15 at checkout. Again, that's liquid dash. IV.com promo code Skinny 15 at checkout. Cheers. This episode was brought to you by Thrive Market. Thrive Market is your one-stop shop for high-end, high-quality, and highly discounted groceries, supplements, beauty products, and household supplies. Thrive Market guarantees its customers 25 to 50% below retail on all items because it cuts out the middleman. Thrive Market is offering all skinny confidential him and her listeners $60 in free groceries, yes, free, and free shipping, again free, with a one-month trial

when you go to thrivemarket.com forward slash skinny. Again, that's thrivemarket.com forward slash skinny. Happy shopping, everyone. We will be back next week.