The Bossticks - #126: Kamiu Lee, CEO of Activate formerly Bloglovin' - Influencer Monetization, Content Discovery, Developing Confidence, & Brand Partnerships

Episode Date: July 26, 2018

On this episode we sit down with Kamiu Lee. Kamiu is the CEO of Activate which was formerly Bloglovin'. Kamiu has experience in influencer marketing, social media, digital media, venture capital and investment banking. During this interview we discuss how to get content discovered, effective places to spend your time as a creator, and how to monetize content the right way. We go into detail about what mistakes influencers are making when it comes to monetization and brand partnerships. We also talk about how to develop confidence in the work place so you can be more effective and present new ideas to your team. To connect with Kamiu Lee click HERE To connect with Lauryn Evarts click HERE To connect with Michael Bosstick click HERE Read More on The Skinny Confidential HERE For Detailed Show Notes visit TSCPODCAST.COM To Call the Him & Her Hotline call: 1-833-SKINNYS (754-6697)  This episode was brought to you by Grove Collaborative.   Grove Collaborative offers healthy alternatives to household supplies and we use it for all of our cleaning supplies. To try grove collaborative go to www.grove.co/skinny Listeners will receive 30 dollars in free supplies a special gift and a 60 day VIP membership.    This episode was brought to you by Third Love   Third Love knows there's a perfect bra for everyone, so right now they are offering TSC listeners 15% off your first order! If you want to get your own perfect fitting bra Go to www.thirdlove.com/skinny and get 15% off your first purchase! 

The following podcast is a dear media production. This episode is brought to you by Third Love. When it comes to a bra, I like a lot of things to check my boxes. You know what I mean? I don't ask for much. Just the perfect fit. A lot of size options, quality, tagless, convenience, not a mall person. And of course, comfort.

So enter Third Love. I'm obsessed, you guys. Third Love knows there's a perfect bra for everyone. So right now they're offering all TSC. him and her listeners, 15% off your first order. This is so fitting for me, given recent events, and I truly am using my own code, which is maybe a little embarrassing, but because I have new boobs, I need new bras. So if you guys want to get your own perfect fitting, buttery soft bra, just go to thirdlove.com slash skinny and get 15% off your first purchase. Make sure you guys use the code.

That is thirdlove.com slash skinny for 15% off today. She's a lifestyle blogger extraordinaire. Fantastic. And he's a serial entrepreneur. A very smart cookie. And now Lauren Everts and Michael Bostic are bringing you along for the ride. Get ready for some major realness. Welcome to the skinny confidential, him and her.

Certainly if you're starting out as a creator, you should spend majority of your time on the content and figuring out who are you speaking to. ideally you're not trying to, you know, all of a sudden, be a broad lifestyle influencer, you know, when you're talking about everything, because that's a really hard way to grow as someone that's new, right? You need to figure out, like, what am I saying that's unique and different from anyone else out there so that I can latch on to that audience and then grow from there? What up, guys? Happy Thursday.

Welcome back to the skinny confidential him and her show. If you're new to the show, thank you for joining us. That clip was from our guests of the show today, Commune. Lee, who is the CEO of Activate, which was formally named Blog Love Ensure, a ton of you content creators and blog lovers knew that platform. On this episode, we discuss how to get content discovered, effective places to spend your time as a creator and how to monetize content. We also talk about how to develop confidence in the workplace so you can be more effective and present new ideas. Quick introduction. I'm Lauren Everts. I'm the creator of the Skinny Confidential

and the co-host of the Him and Her Podcast. And I'm Michael Bostic. I'm an entrepreneur and business operator and I've specialized in direct to consumer marketing over the last 10 years. Most recently, the CEO of the podcast network, Dear Media, which focuses on female content and voices. Welcome back, welcome back, everyone, to this fabulous Thursday episode. As many of you know, we now do a Thursday episode, full episode every other Thursday. If you're tuning in for the first time this week, make sure you go back and listen to the episode that we released on Tuesday. That was episode number 1-25 so make sure you don't miss that and make sure you look for the Thursday episodes every other Thursday. I know it's a little confusing for those of you've been listening for a long time

now that we're doing six a month instead of four. But we still have every Tuesday episode releasing every Tuesday as well as a new Thursday episode, which is a full episode every other Thursday. So be sure to look for both. Lauren, how the boobs doing? How are holding up? The boobs are doing great. I feel a little bit better today. I do still want you to wait on me just in case you're wondering. you came home and the house was a mess and I expect you to clean it up. You screwed up though. No, I think I'm showing my worth because normally the house is spotless so now you can see what it would be like if I couldn't be here. No, you screwed up because we went to your follow-up doctor appointment yesterday and you walked in like bright eye and bushytail flew the door open and said you felt

great and to me you've been saying the exact opposite. So I'm on to you now and I realize that my time as a nurse is over. No, Michael, you have not been the best nurse. In fact, I've been watching Nurse Jackie and I feel like you are not Nurse Jackie. Set the bar low if there's any men working out there. As soon as you show, you can be a good blog photographer, a good nurse, a cook, any of those things, they're going to hold you to it. So just set the bar low. No, Michael, I hope that you're really going to step it up tomorrow. I'm expecting a lot. You know what's not lazy is my pajama situation. So as you can imagine, I'm pretty specific about my pajamas. I just don't want tags sticking everywhere. I never have. And Third Love recently sent me a pair of their

buttery pink loungewear. I talked about it on the skinny confidential a couple months ago, and it was really love it for sight. So seriously for my whole recovery, I've been wearing their pajamas. It's just really ideal for curling up with a book, specifically Howard Stern's book, which I'm reading or watching a new show, specifically Nurse Jackie, like I said. Some of the reasons I'm a fan, okay? The fit. Number one, fit is so important. They come in half-size, and they've tested millions of women in the fit department so they know their stuff, guys. So important. Number two, no tags. This is the real win for me. It doesn't feel like you're wearing a bra at all, which is kind of trippy, but amazing. Number three is the fabric. It's buttery and soft. And number four is there's no wires.

So there's no wires poking into your girls. You know what I mean? I should also mention that they have A through h sizing. Okay. Wow. Amazing. The most badass thing, though, is there's a fit finder. on their website so you can find your perfect size. You also still feel pretty, especially when you're wearing their pajamas. So you know when you throw on your husband's oversized creature from the Black Lagoon 600 year old pajamas, that's not happening for me anymore. I'm getting in the bed and I'm looking cute in my black tea with my black shorts or my pink long sleeve shirt with my pink long pants to get specific. If you're on the fence about which color to choose, I think that you should go for the ballet pink because I love pink. It's one of my favorites. It's this total staple, but like I said, I also

really love the black t-shirt with the cute black shorts. They make your butt look amazing. They're so flattering. I wore them last night. Lucky Michael. Michael should feel so lucky with me prancing around in my black third love shorts. As you can see guys, things are looking up. It's all uphill. Hello, buttery loungeware, bye-bye creature from the black lagoon pants. Third Love knows that there's a perfect bra for everyone. So right now they're offering all TSC, him and her listeners, 15% off your first order. So all you have to do is go to third love.com slash skinny to now find your perfect fitting bra. And you're going to get 15% off your first purchase, which is insane. That's thirdlove.com slash skinny for 15% off today. Make sure you get that pink buttery loungeware. Let's jump into a him and her

tip because we haven't done one in a couple weeks. And it used to be a regular segment, but then I didn't like the how it was regular you know and like sticking to a schedule on that stuff so let's just call it a segment and this segment is the him and her tip of the week you like it chaotic that's why you're married to me no i don't think it needs i think there could be segments in shows but i i don't like that there's a consistency to it but it's a set i like consistent segments but not every single a frequent plot twist yes you never know what you're going to get that's how it is when you come home to me you never know my tip is you get to your tip jimmy my tip her tip is about zits so i get so many dms on Instagram asking me how to fight zits. And I feel like I've really cracked the code on this.

Don't mean to brag. And there's three things you need to do for a zip. Okay. The first thing is you need a good zit clay. A zit clay is essential. Nothing crazy, nothing with tons of ingredients. Keep it super simple. I have one that was recommended by my friend Lindsay and D at Browtique. You guys know that's where I get my brows done. Shout out to Lindsay and D. And it's this one called Lyristat. It's from Sweden and it's It's just amazing. There's no dyes, synthetic or added chemicals. It clears acne, pimples, rashes, bug bites, et cetera, blackheads. Basically, it just pulls out impurities. And I've used it forever. I feel like I've used it for like maybe five years. It's just like this one gem. I'll leave the link in the show notes. It's just to die for, okay? And there's only two ingredients.

Okay. It's clay and water. We love this. Then you want to pick up a blackhead remover. Those little 399 right aid tools that they have in the beauty section. and you want to keep it forever, but make sure you clean it within each use. I like to use like a soap in between. And there's going to be one end that's a loop for pressing and extracting, and the other sharp end is for piercing or poking. I like to go for the end that's pressing and extracting. This is to minimize the damage to your skin. A remover is more safe to clear out your pores, and it's super, super efficient. So like I said, pick that up at Rite or get one off Amazon, and I will leave the link for that, too, in the show notes. And the last thing is a good serum.

You want a good serum. I right now like the one from Dr. Dennis Gross. It's vitamin C serum. It's awesome. It tightens my skin. I feel just so dewy and glowy when I go to bed. Michael's been using it. It kills blemishes.

And I just think that that is the perfect trifecta. If you want to go even crazier, you could put a little bit of tea tree oil. Make sure it's all natural on top of the pimple, maybe the next morning, maybe even under your makeup. So that's my, that's my zip tips. It's pretty simple, straight to the point. It's really going to help if you have a huge crater on your face like me right now. Crater face. My tip is much shorter, but it's something that has actually been helping me a lot.

And I don't know if this applies. I know we have a lot of women listeners. I don't know if this applies to women. But I've been having a ton of lower back problems and hip problems. And I haven't been able to figure out what's been going on. I think it's because I carry this wallet for forever in my back right pocket. So my chiropractor told me either stop doing that or switch it to my left. So girls out there, guys, if you're significant other is having problems with their back,

tell them to switch the wallet. I know it sounds stupid. I know it sounds simple, but that's my tip. And then the second thing is I'm a side sleeper, as many of us are. And I feel like one of my hips has been dropping because I usually sleep on my right side. And so what I've been doing, and a nurse told me this is to put a pillow, light pillow between my legs if I'm sleeping on my side. And honestly, since I've been doing that, it's made all the difference. So if you're a side sleeper and you're having hip or lower back problems, just try putting a pillow between.

your legs. It's funny. Once you start doing that, you kind of don't want to go back to sleeping the other way. So that's my hymn tip of the week. Super simple. Straight to the point. No tools involved besides pillows. And switching your side wallet if you have one. All right, let's jump into the interview with Camus Lee. Camus Lee is the CEO at Activate, which was formerly called blog loving Sherman. You have heard of it. She has over 10 years of experience in influencer marketing, social media, digital media, venture capital and investment banking. Camus started her career in investment banking and venture capital, as well as business development and strategy roles at Rent the Runway, Refinery 29, and Ralph Lauren prior to being named CEO of Activate. With that, please enjoy this insightful

conversation with Camus Lee. Before we get into the interview, I have a confession. Okay. Michael thinks I'm crazy because of the way I screen my household supplies. I am crazy, but that's another story. That's not the only reason I think you're crazy. I just feel like my tiny chihuahuas are near the ground so much that they're inhaling a lot of gross crap full of chemicals and I don't want that okay I want to keep my household products clean my floors clean the cups I drink out of the air I breathe I want it clean you get the point especially in my house the cleaner the better so that's why I want to tell you about Grove collaborative one of the standout stars on Grove collaborative is their method all natural pink grapefruit cleaner if that's not on brand I don't know what is you guys know I love grapefruit

specifically. I also love pink and I love something that keeps it clean. To get even more detailed, you should know that I get all my cleaning supplies from Grove collaborative. So Grove makes it easy to discover the best non-toxic products. So when I shop on Grove.com, I'm confident that I'm selecting the items that are good for me, my chihuahuas, my home, and the planet. What about me? Oh, you too. None of the products are tested on animals. Okay. And here's the deal. I have to go. I'm busy, you're busy, we're all busy. So to have one spot to grab all my natural cleaners is so efficient. I'm not running from store to store. I can get it all online in one spot. I also want to talk about seventh generation laundry detergent. This is the only one I use on my sheets and pillows forever.

I mean, I've used this for the last like six years. I feel like if you're laying your head on a pillow every night for seven to eight hours, then you want to keep it clean. Also keep it silk too if you can. I also like their dishwasher detergent. You're eating off your plates and using utensils every day. You're drinking tea. You want to keep it clean, okay? So to get really detailed with you, Grove Collaborative is a reoccurring shipment service that delivers all natural home beauty and personal care products directly to your door. Basically, this is all my home essentials in one spot and they do the work for you because it's all natural and already chosen. They also price matched so you guys know that you're getting the best deal ever. So here's how it works. You get a hundred, customizable auto shipments on your schedule. So edit, pause and cancel at any time. You get free shipping and free returns and 100% happiness guarantee. If you guys haven't tried Grove, you have to try it. Make sure you get the seventh generation laundry detergent and the grapefruit spray. For a limited time, my listeners who sign up, we'll get an amazing $30 gift set, a free 60 day VIP membership and a bonus gift just for you when you sign up and place an order of $20 or more. Just check out Grove.

and our special offer at grove.cove.com slash skinny. That's grove.com, not dot com slash skinny. And like I said, make sure to pick up the products that I snagged. Your dogs, your husband, and yourself will thank you. This is the skinny confidential, him and her. Yeah, I mean, I certainly cannot take credit for the launch of Blog Lovin. The founders of the company, Matias, Patrick, Dan, and Daniel Grant, and their two dance, really founded blog-lovin.

And at the time, I think they initially wanted to start something that was akin to like a Yelp for bloggers. Once they started talking to bloggers, they very quickly realized, like, they were not interested in that at all. But they did spend more and more time with these bloggers and figured out that they were all like checking out each other's content.

They would have like 18 tabs open, refreshing, and like checking to see what the local latest content was being published at the time. And at the time, blogging was really the main channel, right? There wasn't certainly the social channels. And so they're like, why don't you use Google Reader? There's a tool out there that helps you do this. They're like, oh, it's too techy, it's ugly. I mean, the beginnings of Blog Levin was a pretty Google Reader. It wasn't like anything revolutionary, but it grew like wildfire. Like very quickly, certainly all the, you know, you know, today what we view as like the top talent, the OG bloggers.

At the time, they were just starting out, and they were using bloggloven, and the way they set up the platform, you know, it allows the consumer, from a consumer perspective, you can follow as many blogs as you want. They always kept the blogger at the heart of the company, of the platform, meaning that any page views, any traffic that's generated pass through, right? Like, they were not trying to kind of take traffic away, right? So it was a win-win. win-win. It was a win-win-win. It was a great tool for the creators. It was a great tool for users. And, you know, for the creators, it was like about content discovery, inspiration, right? What are other people talking about? And what's my take on it, right? So that was really the beginnings.

I joined the company when they caught the eye of some investors here in the U.S. and they had moved their headquarters here, and they wanted to start thinking about, you know, monetization and business strategy and that was kind of the first business hire so I want to go back a little bit just to give and we're going to talk a lot about blog living and now the rebrand but I want to go back I want to I want to learn more about you sure what was your upbringing what was your childhood like where are you from so I was born in Hong Kong wow have you guys been it's an intent it's like I think it's New York on steroids like they party hard over there I was born there but I you know I moved here I moved to New York City when I was four.

My parents are certainly, you know, they were from southern China. They went through the cultural revolution. They never got to finish high school, and they moved here with nothing. So it's an incredible, you know, when I think about them raising, I have a younger sister, raising two kids in New York City with, you know, a language barrier. I have no idea how they did that. Yeah, I literally have no idea how they did that. So they moved here.

We moved around a bit. We moved. We lived in Brooklyn. We lived in Queens. Eventually, they were able to purchase the home in Queens, and that's where I grew up. I went to high school in the city in downtown Manhattan, went to college in Boston, and then kind of came back to New York. I've been in New York since. So what was your, thinking back on your childhood, what was your childhood like as a coming from an immigrant family in New York?

Yeah. Difficult, easy, was it? So when you're at like. When you're like six or seven years old, you have no idea. Like you're, you have no idea that your, like, you know, your upbringing was like any different from anyone else's. I think it didn't really hit me until I was, like, much older. So I would say that the biggest difference was I realized that I had to be the translator

a lot of times early on. So like parent teacher conferences. For your family. Yeah, like that was like the weirdest thing in parent teacher conferences. But it is also cool because you could be like, I am the best in the class. The teacher says that no one's better. It did not work that way. It did not work that way.

So I distinctly remember sitting in a PTA or whatever parent teacher conference with my mom and my teacher. And teacher's like, oh, you know, Kimu's great. Like she's doing, you know, and my mom was like, okay, and she was like talking to me. She's like, okay, I don't want, like, I know, like, I know, like, there's good stuff. She's like, I want to know the feedback. Like, I want to know, like, what are the things that she needs to work on? What's the constructive stuff, right? And so she was very, very, like, direct.

And then I had to, like, translate that to my teacher. I was like, she knows. She doesn't want to, like, she wants to hear, like, the good stuff, right? Not the good stuff, I guess, the bad stuff. What's the teacher's reaction to that? They were always, like, taken back. They were like, okay. Because they're on the spot.

I'm, like, seven, you know? So, yeah, so that was always, they were always taken off guard. But it taught me that, you know, always seek out the feedback. People generally won't offer it up, right? And always listen and try to like reincorporate and do better. I bet that's helped you where you are now to always seek out feedback. Yeah, no, it definitely has been like a life lesson. I always think it's dangerous when when everyone's patting you on the back and telling you're great.

Because you can start to believe the hype, so to say. And then when something goes wrong, you're like, you're like, what do you what happened? I didn't do anything wrong. Right, yeah, yeah. I always give Michael feedback. I've got a constant feedback. I have a scroll of feedback in my purse.

Oh. Wow. That's good, right? It doesn't kill you make you stronger. So when did you start to notice, I'm sure it was before you started working with Blog Lovin, that there was something that was really about to happen in the influencer space? So I knew nothing about the influencer space before I joined Blogloven. I did know the name Blog Loven. So I started out, right out of college, I was an investment banker. So I did that for five years. predominantly, you know, capital raising in M&A. And at the time, you know, it was like a great learning experience. It was great, you know, right out of college. It paid well.

It was, you know, for a 22-year-old, it was amazing. But I was never, like my heart wasn't totally in it. And so, you know, in my off time, I would scroll blog love it. I would follow content. And I was like, oh, this is interesting. And you really get to know the people, right? beyond, you know, they talk about everything from their personal lives to what, you know, what the sales that are happening right now.

And at this time, if you can go back and remember who were the creators that you were looking at? Because what year is this? This was like maybe like 2011. Okay. Something like that. 2010, 2011, 2012, 2012. So the industry is pretty new.

Pretty new. I remember, I remember man-repeller. I remember thinking like, oh my God, she's so like out of the, she was different from everyone else, right? She was talking about stuff that and she had such a sense of humor. She was an excellent writer and she continues. Her team is incredible. They're also in Soho right nearby. I remember her distinctly.

I'm trying to think. I mean, there were some like career fashion, you know, because I had to wear suits every day. So like I was always like following that. I was like, okay, where do I get like cool looking black suits? And at the time, there weren't like that many options. Now there's like companies like M.M.LIF floor and, you know, things like that. But yeah, and then food. I've always been really into cooking and food.

And so I remember following a few food blogs, but I honestly don't remember the specific ones. So you're scrolling through looking at all the content on blog loving. And did you seek out blog loving or did blog loving seek out you? So at the time, I honestly, I didn't have the blog leaven app or neither was. I just saw the blog loving. Gloven logo on the blog sites and so I had just kind of brand recognition with the name. Okay. After banking I went to business school. I worked for a few kind of mid-stage startups like a rent-the-runway and refinery 29. Blog Lovin had raised capital here. They had brought

in a CEO, Joy Marcus. She previously ran Daily Motion in the U.S., so lots of video experience. And then, you know, after blog glove and she actually ran video at Kani Nas, Kani Nas Entertainment. So I had worked with her at a venture capital firm in New York previously. And when she was brought into be CEO, she was like, I need someone that has like the finance chops and the like can be like flexible and actually likes the space. And, you know, I don't know where I'm going to find this person. Like, tell me you're going to do it. Basically. So somebody to operate the business. Yeah. Yeah. And I was like I, you know, and I thought, you know, you know, Joy had always been, you know, a kind of a mentor. And I looked up to her career and I was like,

you know what? I have no idea where this company is going to go. But it'll probably be a fun ride. So I kind of just took the, took a leap of faith and jumped. When you were in banking, was this around 2008, 9? Yeah. So what was the atmosphere like then? Because I had some friends that came out. Yes. I've had friends come out at the time and they've, the same career path. And they ended up leaving because they said it was so difficult the way people dealt with them at that time because, you know, the crisis. Yes. So I graduated in 2007. So it was like the year before, right before. So I was, you know, I was hired when things were riding high. And it was like we had a big expense accounts. I remember being sent to, I worked for a British bank being sent to London with like these crazy, you know, we were like

partying and it was great. Yeah. And I was like, oh, wow, this is like amazing. I had just gotten out of college. And then like eight months later, everything kind of crashed, right? 2008. And all of a sudden, all the banks were reorganizing the teams. A lot of the reshuffling and the restructuring that was happening, you know, they cut out certainly the junior staff right away. I was laid off. I was, I was like 22, and I was part of one of the restructure processes. And I and I, and, and, ended up working for another team at the same bank. So, like, and it happened very quickly, so it wasn't like. But it was intense.

And the culture is definitely an intense culture to start out in. But it's great training, honestly. You just, I mean, you just, by brute force, you work really hard. And you've got to learn things very quickly. So what do you think the biggest things you learned from that industry that you could apply to, you know, your current industry? Yeah. Totally different industry. industries. But when I think about like just even basic stuff, like I can put together a set of slides so quickly. I mean, that's like anyone that's been in banking knows like you spend a ridiculous amount of time formatting slides.

You're using Google slides? No, I'm using Google slides, but you know, PowerPoint was what I was using previously. But that is actually really helpful, like understanding how to tell a story through a slide deck and being able to do as short as possible. Yeah. Less words. Oh my gosh. You're making Michael so excited. I'm subliminally messaging. No, it's important, no. I maybe do a slide or too too many. Is that the feedback you get? I get a little too creative. Invergent feedback. But you know, creatives like to show a lot.

Yeah. Sorry, side-tracked it. And like trying to figure out like, okay, because, you know, as a 22-year-old at a college in that role, you're actually exposed to very senior level people very early. So your clients are generally like CEOs, board of companies. you know, COOs, CFOs. And so you learn how to communicate and present yourself appropriately. You learn to, you know, double track, triple, like all of those little things that I think is really important and comes back to bite you if you don't have that early training.

But yeah, putting together slide deck quickly, thinking like just kind of like how to think about an industry and how to think about a situation, how to build out a quick model. Like, does this all make sense? Do the numbers, like, are you going to be, you know, is this viable? you know, things like that. I imagine it takes a certain personality that requires confidence, though, dealing with, you know, you seem like someone that's very confident. You can handle talking to the senior level and present yourself. But some people, I imagine, it probably crushes them, right? You think all of a sudden you're a 22-year-old kid and you think you're getting banking and

then you're dealing with CEO and there's a lot of money involved. Right. Did you ever experience any of that or were you always, or you, like, rise at the challenge type thing? Yeah, I think you learn. I think you can build confidence. I don't consider myself like a naturally confident person. Like I have friends where I feel like they were born like out of the womb, like totally confident, right?

Like I don't think, for me, it's like I feel like I need to fully understand before I can say, you know, I feel 100% behind something. So it's not, you know, I do think it can be learned and it can be built. Yeah, I definitely think confidence is something you can practice that. I think you have to put yourself in situations that are uncomfortable over. and over and over again. Yes. That's what has worked the best for me.

Because you've seen and you see how you get out of it. And then you remember and you're like, well, I can do that again. And you always think it's going to be way worse than it actually is. Like you always assume the worst. Yes. And now I have the foresight on that. So I always say, okay, you're over-analyzing. It's not going to be that bad.

Pull the Band-Aid off. The reason I asked the question about confidence, there's a lot of listeners that listen to the show. That's like one of the most common questions is how do you develop confidence? And I think it's scary. because like you both said, is putting yourself in those uncomfortable situations. And when you tell someone that,

that's what they're trying to maybe avoid, but I think it's the only way. And I always tell the story that maybe not believe it now, but when I used to think about public speaking or speaking in front of people in general, I was terrified. I was like, no way. No way can ever do that.

I used to think, like, what if one of my friends gets married or what I had to talk at a funeral? The funeral example is morbid, but I was like, I'm going to freeze up and now, hey, can't shut me up. I threw them in front of someone. I threw them in front of a couple people.

The first time I ever spoke in public, I had to take a tequila shot. That helps. That always helps. It did help. Yeah, a little bit of wine. I do that too. A little bit of wine. I think it's honestly, it's like pure practice.

You know, some people are naturally confident. And again, like, that's great. But I think the majority of people, like the more you practice, the more you've seen yourself do it, you build up your own confidence and you kind of go from there. So how did you switch industries? Now you're in a completely different industry. And you said you have to. double check, triple check.

Now you're in a new industry. How did you come out sort of the gates with confidence? So I don't feel like I came out of the gates with confidence. So leaving banking was definitely a big decision for me. It was like, you know, I knew I, the final decision factor was like, I did not want to be a managing director at the bank. So I was like, well, the more, the longer I stay, the harder it's going to be because it's more money on the table that, you know, like you just, it just gets harder and harder.

So once I decided that, then I was like, okay, well, you know, what would I want to do? And I kind of thought, okay, like at the time, you know, digital media commerce was like very new and very undefined. And there was a lot of companies that were coming out, you know, in that space. And I was like, you know what? It seems like there's a lot to be done in these areas that are kind of undefined. and I could probably learn a lot there and you know I certainly didn't want to work for a dying industry so so that was kind of how I you know and then I kind of started over I basically like I took an unpaid internship at Refinery 29 essentially and I was like I took you know I'm actually meeting the guy that I worked with Patrick I don't know if you know Patrick ye from refinery but it sounds familiar there anymore but but I was basically like hey like I'm going back to business school, no pressure, I don't need a full-time job. Like, I just want to learn about this space and, and see if this is what I want to pursue. Totally different environments. I went from, like, an all-male

work environment to, like, Refinery 29, which was predominantly female. And that was really interesting, and, like, learning about, like, Google Analytics, learning about, like, what were CPMs and, like, the basics. Yeah, like, what drives traffic. Pinterest at the time was just starting to come. out and they were doing a lot of testing with Pinterest. And keywords and everything there goes. Keywords, SEO, like all of this stuff that I had no idea about. So that was great.

And then from there, it was just like more and more conversations, like learning about different companies. And I tried, you know, during my two years at business school, it was in New York at Columbia, I tried to just learn as much as possible about different business models. I was like, you know what? I have two years. Let me just take this and like forget about the money. Like just really try to learn as much as possible.

and figure out, like, what do I want, what I don't want, and go from there. So as you learned this stuff, and now that you've learned so much, I thought of this question as you're speaking traffic and all the different tools that you mentioned, that bloggers and content creators should know about, but maybe don't necessarily focus on it. Because a lot of people are creatives and they don't get into the analytics and the back and in the SEO and tagging and all that stuff. I think that's probably the world that I come from and you come from. What do you see new bloggers or content creators?

What do you think, like, I don't want to say it's a mistake, but, you know, I don't want to say it's a mistake, but something that is ignored that could help their blog grow or drive more traffic, that they're just not paying, that you see it's an easy thing to do, but they're not paying attention and they're neglecting it? Like, is there one thing, like after running this company and seeing all these different blogs, is there something you're saying like, hey, if bloggers just did this, or content creators just did this for their platform, it would increase traffic and views? Well, I think that certainly if you're starting out as a creator,

you should spend majority of your time on the content and figuring out who, Who are you speaking to? Ideally, you're not trying to, you know, all of a sudden be a broad lifestyle influencer, you know, when you're talking about everything, because that's a really hard way to grow as someone that's new, right? You need to figure out, like, what am I saying that's unique and different from anyone else out there so that I can latch on to that audience and then grow from there? I would say it's like looking at, you know, trying to get as much information around what is engaging your audience, right? And so maybe it's digging into your Google Analytics.

Maybe it's looking at time spent on a certain piece of content, right, whether you're publishing on an Instagram or on your blog. But then from there, maybe devote a certain portion of your time just testing new ways to promote that content. Because there's no one, you know, it changes so quickly, you know, for some time, like if you were early on Instagram, you're early on, you can only be early on something if you're continually testing. So, and if you're, you know, you do get benefits if you are early on something, right? So you get like that initial.

You don't want to wait for something to pop. Like if something's announced, like what's the harm and just saying, oh, I'm going to try this and see if I're, you know. As a creator, I even write down exactly who I'm talking to. I've done that from the beginning. Like, I always say I know what kind of music she's listening to. I have a name for her. I picture her. And so every time I'm tailoring my content,

I'm constantly thinking of who this person is. And I think when you have that in your mind as an influencer, it's easier to communicate your story. Yes. You know? Yes. So I want to talk about your favorite failure. If you had to pick something that maybe a failure that you just look at

and you think if that failure didn't happen, maybe I wouldn't be here today. Please don't say doing this podcast. Let me think. Okay, so this is like, I think I was maybe 13 or 12, like I was in high school, and there was some summer program that I remember that I really wanted to go. I like, I honestly don't even remember exactly whether it was like some sort of like educational like summer camp thing. And I remember like begging my parents, like because it was relatively expensive. And I was like, I really, if I get in, I really want to go like that.

I got them to like agree basically. And so I like was working on the application and all of that. And I I messed up on the submission dates. And I didn't get the application in on time. And it was like I, you know, I didn't even have a shot basically, right? I didn't even have like I wasn't even able to like throw my hat in the ring. And I distinctly remembered that and remember like being so upset and knowing that it was my fault. but it was like a very basic thing like if you're not if you don't show up you're not getting anywhere right so

and i think like that was something that was very like just just be there that's like the basic thing like do the do the basics right and then you kind of riff from there um i don't know if that's like a good but i just distinctly remember feeling like that was that was um something that i completely missed the mark and it was completely my fault and you know now Now I have no idea where that could have gone, right? And at the time, it was so important to me that I was just like, how did I mess? Like, I just wasn't organized enough. So it was like basic, basic stuff.

It was like almost like you couldn't believe that it even occurred. Yeah. It was like, and then you realized very quickly that, you know, the world doesn't revolve around you, right? Like you're still trying to learn that. You're, you know, sometimes you mess up and sometimes you get, you know, you get a slap back for that. So, yeah. So Activate has been the name of our influencer marketing technology platform. It was already the name of the influencer marketing technology.

And as a company and as a business, that was really where we were focused for some time. Blog Lovin as a platform continues to be our kind of owned and operated media platform essentially. it still continues to drive traffic to hundreds of thousands of creators globally. What we view our value prop, right, for creators is like there's the traffic generation piece, there's the discovery element, but then there's also monetization opportunities on the platform. And from the very beginning, it's been about scale. It's been about, you know, a diverse, broad set of creators. And it's the same with the Activate Platform.

There's 154,000 creators that are opted into that platform. You know, we would pull live analytics around their Google analytics, their Instagram, Instagram stories, Facebook, et cetera. So as a company, we had already evolved. Obviously, the blog, love, and brand had been around for so long and so ingrained in the community. So internally, we always were like, you know, we knew there was a conflict when we talked to brands and when we talk to, you know, partners. They were like, well, blog, do you do blogs only? You know, do you do Instagram? Like, that was always the question.

And we knew there was confusion in the marketplace. It just took us some time to kind of rip off that Band-Aid because there were so many fears. Like, well, you know, this brand's been built for so many years. It's on all these different blogger sites across the world. But at the end of the day, it was like we had already made that decision as a strategy and, you know, where the business was. And we just need to make sure that there was a cohesive story externally as well.

So where do you see content going? And I don't just mean, you know, obviously people are going to creep. keep creating content, but with blogs, like, you know, and all the social channels are introduced, and you guys have had your fingers on the pulse the entire time, what do you see the next evolution of content being? Is it a certain platform play? Do you see blogs continuing to grow? If you were coaching a content creator now, and, you know, we were kind of, we were diving into this a little bit earlier, there's Instagram stories and Instagram TV and YouTube. It's like, where would you focus attention or where do you think that attention's going?

Well, you know, I think in the last few years, Instagram has really proven to be a major player as a content platform. You know, they have been really smart about how they've launched new features on the platform. You know, and they've been very transparent around, you know, taking, even like copying features, right, from a Snapchat. But there's a massive audience on that platform, and they're only increasing the different mediums of content. on there, whether it's still images or short videos, now long videos. So as a channel, it's been really fascinating to watch Instagram. But that being said, at least from our company viewpoint and how I see it, similar to how both of you see, like the creator at the center,

there's a lot of different channels that you can create content on. And, you know, podcasts being one, you know, YouTube, Facebook, Instagram, all these other channels. It is about the personality at the core. Like, what is your, what are you communicating? What's the value that you're communicating to your audience? It's a great answer. And then, like, what are all the different channels?

Like, there's different reasons you tap into different channels, you know? Something that we always talk about as well. Like, how do you think about content that's on Pinterest versus on Instagram? Like, Pinterest, there's, I almost see it as like, okay, the consumer funnel. Like, where are you in that funnel? Are you at the consideration phase? Like, at least all the time that I spent on Pinterest. It's like decorating.

You know, I have like a different board for each room in my house. And it's, you know, it's like these are all the products that I'm considering purchasing. And then I probably narrow it down to something and purchase one of them. I want to discuss monetization because you talked a little bit about it. So if there's a blogger out there that's listening and, you know, maybe she's a micro influencer, how would you recommend she starts monetizing? Where would you tell someone to start? And let's say they have not monetized yet.

Yeah. If you're a micro-influencer, you know, I wouldn't even tell them to think about monetizing at this stage. I completely agree. Because, you know, chances are they've, you know, they have a certain amount of their followers that are like friends and family, right? And then they maybe haven't totally figured out who their audience is. Like, what is hitting home and, like, focus on the content. I think that's, like, the most important thing early on. know, until you've developed that audience,

like not to say this influencer needs to become massive, right? It's, I think it's much more valuable to have, you know, whether it's 10,000, 10,000 followers where you, it's like literally the exact audience that you've decided that you want to talk to, right? That's so much better than having 50,000 of random people. What's interesting about that is when we came to this medium, the podcast, it was obviously it was a standalone. Lauren had her blog and she was monetizing and she had brand deals at the time.

But when we started this podcast, we didn't think about monetizing it until about a year in. That was not our focus at all. It was like build the channel out. Yeah. Because you have to be careful in the beginning. You start to get traction. And then all of a sudden you start serving someone, you know, ads or monetization. And then you lose.

They're like, okay, I was here to learn about this type of content. And now I'm learning about some juice or whatever. I look back when I started eight years ago and I see what, what I look back and I think, oh my God, this is, it's so cool because I went into this industry with the end. intention to provide value and quality content. And that is all I focused on for three years. And I did not make a dime for three years. Yeah. And I think now when I talk to people that want to be influencers or bloggers, the first question they ask me is, how do you monetize? And I look at that is that's a very short term game. Yes. Yes. It's not a long term game. Yeah. So for me, if you're out there,

you're listening, you're just getting into this, to this space. Just really think about what your intention is. it is to just make money, that's okay, but you have to know that that comes with a set of cons. If there is someone that's maybe a bigger influencer that's listening, what do you... With an established audience? With an established audience. What would you recommend they do if it is sort of time to monetize? Yeah, I mean, there's, you know, certainly looking at what channels you're super strong on, right? Not everyone is on every channel and maybe figure out what those are. Figure out who your audience is, define that audience, measure that audience, because you're going to have to

give those answers to brands and then you start talking to them anyway. Figure out, you know, figure out compelling ways that, you know, as a creative, you spend your time thinking about, okay, like, what's like a cool way, what's a new way of communicating X, right? Figure out how you tie that in a unique way to a brand or a product, right, like so that you're not like fully just product placement. what is your cell essentially? Knowing that very clearly means that every meeting that you do have with a brand or an agency

or whoever it is that you start talking to means that you have that much of a stronger cell and conversation. And they're much more likely your win rate is going to be that much higher, right? So making sure you have that foundation, I think, is probably the most, the first piece. Certainly there's the, you know, do you do you, do you, do you find representation so that you do have someone that's there to support you and help you really build out the business, you know, especially like, you know, I think we talked about this earlier. If you're creative, you're so in your content, like maybe you're not that kind of business side in person, right?

And so having someone on your side, whether it's an agent or it could just be, I don't know, it could be a friend that is, you know, business-minded that can help you, you know, think about those. things. I do think it's easier now more than ever to be discovered and considered for brand partnerships, right? You have, you know, brands are savvy now. They're looking and they're looking. And they're looking. And there's technologies in place that allow for discovery in a way that was not available, you know, three, four years ago. And they're also, the mindset has changed where the brands want to find the folks that are up and coming. Because, one, they see that, you know, this person may not have done as many sponsored stuff in the past and maybe there's less saturation, but also just kind of like getting to work with someone that's like kind of on the rise or something about that as well. So, so the mindset, the tools that are now in place, like there's definitely more opportunity than ever before.

Can I tell you from the, like, so that I said earlier, I come from the consumer space and the marketing space. One thing that I've noticed, both in the podcast space and. in the influencer space is that there's this big hunger or need or drive to want to partner with brands, but there's not as big of a drive to then want to perform for those brands. It's almost like, I got that deal. What's the next deal? And I always tell people like, take less deals, but really focus on a great partnership, driving results for that brand because, you know, anybody that's a sponsor of this podcast, we really vet them and we're careful with who we allow on. But I look at them as, in a way, partners of the show. Right? Like, they're what enables this. the show to be built out. And I want to drive results. I think if you're a creator and

influencer, like, it's, these are the people you're partner with, that's what they are. They're your partners. It shouldn't just be like one and done. I got to find the next one. That's, that's also how, you know, people end up getting bad reputation saying, hey, that person doesn't care. Or they just, they want to get that deal and then move on. I think there's two sides to it. In any business, it's so much easier to win repeat business than to break new business, right? So if you are thinking about it, it's long game, right? Like you, that makes, 100% sense. I think that there's also the element of the fact that I think there's an inclination from both the creator and the brands now to have longer-term relationships. And those longer-term

relationships don't come out of the gate. Like, you know, a brand is not going to come up to you and say, all right, cool, I want to sign you for two years. Like, that's not happening, right? Like, they need to have worked with you. For a while. trust, they see that you perform, and then those opportunities come, right? And so keeping in mind that these opportunities may not be, like, out there and you may not, it may not be pitched to you right away, but if you perform, if you do, new opportunities come up. They're not understanding that if you, you know, let's say you burn a brand and like on one, then it's not coming back, but if you do really well, then it's, there's a chance that it keeps going. Like, you know,

like I said, for this show, we try to do four months, six months, a year-long partnership. It's great. And then, you know, you can be very selective with who you work with and you're not oversaturating your audience, you know, because there's nothing worse than, you know, you have 30 different ad campaigns. It's like, which companies do these people actually like? Yeah. And depending on the vertical, you know, it can be very awkward, right? Like, I mean, if I'm thinking, like, if you're, you know, a mommy blogger, for example, and you're, you're repping pamper's and all of a sudden you switch brands, like, you know, for beauty and for fashion, you can rep a lot of different brands. And it seems fine and natural as long as you,

like, present. People are still. funny in that space about talking about monetization. They think it's like not good to monetize or maybe you don't want to say your advertising. For me, and I think for Lauren, if you love a brand and you like, you should talk. Like that's, that's the whole idea. I can't shut up when I love a brand. I mean, it's so whether I'm paid or not, I can't shut up about it. It becomes everyone's like, we get it. Yeah. Well, I mean, you've been successful in getting me to purchase products. I know that. I mean, we have these, we have these, um, Gigi crackers. G. G. G. G. Scandinavian crackers. Yes. You guys got me GG crackers. We have juice here. We have a little sparkling water.

No, but the entire, like the office talks about this. They really make things moving. From this podcast. Yeah. Which is, so I mean, that's like, you know, in my mind, you know, when I talk to brands or investors and, you know, because there's definitely skepticism about this influencer space. This is a prime example. But like, I would have never found this. And now, like, my husband is eating it for breakfast. Good for your husband. I like that. Yeah. He needs that fiber. Yeah, like this is.

No, it's important. And, you know, we did a whole show about, like, why that's important. But no, I think the reason people are skeptical about talking about it is because they're doing that thing. It was like, I got to get another brand deal. Another, like, for us, anybody that's a sponsor of this show, we have vetted and love those products. So I don't mind, you know, I don't mind plugging them.

We're talking about all the time because they're partners of the show. And I want our audience to know about it because it's stuff that we like and we vet. I was, you know, I was listening to Tim Ferriss. And I know he's doing certain ads, but I know the parameters of the vetting process that he's put those companies and those brands through. So I trust it. It's fine. Like I hope he gets paid. Great. He's delivering great content. And I'm also learning about these great brands. It doesn't bother me. I think where people go wrong with it is they're like, oh, maybe I don't really believe in this. And I took a brand deal. And now I'm ashamed that I took that deal. So I'm going to try to

shuffle it under the rug. And then you've, you've ruined your audience and you've ruined the possibility of, you know, partnering with other brands or getting a long-term partnership. It's funny. For sure. It's strange. I mean, and you're viewing it as a real partnership. So it's not like, you know, certainly there's contracts. We know in this space, right? There's a scope of work and all of that. But I think when there's a true partnership, you, on both sides, you kind of give a little bit more, right?

Because you value the relationship and it's not like everything down to the bullet points of like what you've promised and delivered. And that's when there's a great partnership in place. I want to do a plot twist because I'm obsessed with a certain question. And you're obviously a very, very big box. I mean, you have 22 people in this beautiful office in New York City. How do you tailor your day to be as efficient as possible? Oh, I think about this all the time.

I'm obsessed with this. It's like my favorite topic. And because the more you can squeeze out, like I'm not, I mean, I've been in an industry where you work like literally as many hours as you can. Like I'm not a huge fan of expansion of hours. It's more like how do you squeeze in as much and be real? And it's more fun that way anyway, right? Like no one's to sit around and twiddle their thumbs, right?

So for me, my normal day, I'll, like, get up around 6 or 6.30. I'll have coffee. I'll probably do, like, quick emails, like set up meetings, like little quick things like that, like LinkedIn messages, things like that in the morning. I usually do any kind of, like, external meetings at the beginning of the day or the end of the day. So, like, breakfast or end of day coffee or drinks or something like that. So then, like, during the day, I can really have more either internal meetings and, hopefully have time to just think and do my own thing.

That's like something I miss the most, I think since transitioning into this role, is like there's just so much more like talking to external and internal people. And so the amount of me, like my own time to actually think and do analysis and to work, like that's so much, there's less of it. So I try to like kind of bundle that time if possible.

And then certainly, you know, like things like client meetings and things like that, try to bundle that like into short trips like two-day Chicago trip one week West Coast trip you know and do like pack in as many meetings as we can so um other time management things there's a lot that you can do when like you're on the subway or like the the filler times like the 10 minutes here and there you can make lists I slack myself like a to-do list usually I use wonder list I use OneNote on my community. So like kind of just like

Evernote? You ever use Evernote? I used to use Evernote. I don't know why I stopped, but then now I use OneNote because someone told me about it and then I just got it. It's like similar. Yeah, it's similar.

Yeah, you can search. There's like different folders and things like that. So those things are helpful. Going into each meeting with like an quick checklist, you don't need like a full-blown agenda, but these are things you want to cover. This is what you want to get out of it. So like those meetings aren't like a waste.

of time. That's a good tip, Michael. That's something that I'm navigating. It's like, you know, when you work in an office with a lot of team members, a lot of of the day can be sucked up into meetings or interactions. They're like, what did we actually accomplish? Everyone's like, high-fiving and you leave me. Wait a minute.

Did we get anything done? What's the next steps? Like, what are the things that we need to cover? And are all the people that need to be in the room in the room? And then are there like extra people that shouldn't be in the room that, you know, like they should have time to do other things? Two things. Yeah.

One for leaders and one for someone that's working in an organization. If you're a leader and you're trying to communicate to your team, what would you suggest? When you're structuring a meeting and then we'll go to the reverse. If you're a team member, what would you bring to the leadership? Yeah. So leaders, overcommunicate. Repeat yourself. Don't expect that everyone heard everything you said like the first time.

I think like just a lot of that, like repetition. If anything, I feel like I need to do a better job of doing that. Constantly like feeling the pulse where people are. And I think that's like, you know, whatever you call it, like emotional intelligence, whatever, like figuring out, like, where people are, right? Like, especially if you're running a team league, are people happy? Are they not how they motivated? Does this person feel like, seem like they're in it or not? You know, like, I really like, I valued spending time doing that and having one-on-ones with everyone in the company.

I mean, we're small enough that I can do that. For folks that are contributing and, you know, part of a team, bring ideas, bring, be or, be or, organize, come with your plan. Like don't necessarily look for the direction, because sometimes you may come up with a better idea. You may come up with a better plan. Like be proactive, I would say, because a lot of, you know, a lot of times people, I feel like will wait for their boss or their manager to say, do this.

It's less fun that way anyway, right? Like if you are the one championing something like, hey, you're not 100% of your ideas will cross the finish line, but at least you're taking that initiative. And, you know, you may come up with something that no one else thought about. Or by trigger somebody's idea and say, oh, that, I always tell people, give me every idea. And then we'll figure out how to tailor it. Because you can get, if you're in a leadership role, like you said, like the feedback and nobody's giving you, you know, feedback. And you're sitting there like, this is great.

And I'm like, uh, yeah. Like, I would rather have people speak. I would say, hey, what about this way? Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And for everyone, I think, like, no ego around, like, whose idea it is, I think. Should just be meritocracy. Yeah, in a large organization, it's hard because, like, you know, that in some cases is kind of your way to kind of like make your mark and make your name.

But I feel like, you know, a lot of times the best ideas come from like someone riffing on someone else's ideas. Like who gets credit? Who cares? Like that's like if anything who executed it well should get credit, I think. So, you know, that sort of stuff I think is important because the egos, I feel like is the biggest issue. like when people don't get along or when there's a problem or when someone leaves or like all of those is wrapped up in some sort of ego issue. What is a book or a resource or a podcast of something that you look to a lot is something that you could recommend to the audience that they would,

you know, get value from? Yeah. So I have two, two of my favorite books. This is like a little bit nerdy. I'm a huge Warren Buffett fan. I think he's a genius. He is a genius. He is a genius. There's a biography on him called The Snow Bowl. And you've read it. I love that book. It's a really quick read. So easy read. You can order an Amazon.

I'm ordering it right now. I love his partner, too. We need you to make an Amazon list. You got to make your own Amazon list. Okay, I will. I don't know. I don't have an audience. But that's a great book.

I mean, he's someone that started with his savings, basically. And now he's like, I don't even know how much, you know. but like just kept investing. But it wasn't, he never did it for the money. It was like he, it was for the challenge of figuring out the right investment and the right, you know, so that that was really interesting to show like really how that compounds on itself. If you're really passionate about something, it's not just, you know, you don't know what the end game is going to be. You can't plan 18 steps ahead.

So that was like a cool. And then you learn about all the different people that's come in and out of his lives, like different. different investments, different CEOs that he's worked with. And, like, you know, there's one story, I think, of, actually, this is in a second book. So the second book is called The Outsiders. Have you read that one? Is that by Malcolm Gladwell? No.

I actually don't know who is it, but it. Not the one by Essie Hinton about Pony Boy. No, no, no. That's the first outsider. I know which book is, like, the wording on the front is like kind of skewed. Yes. It's about like eight different CEOs or something like that that are like non-traditional like not who you would normally think would be CEOs.

Like one is Kay Graham, who is like the CEO of Washington Post. A good majority of those CEOs worked with Warren Buffett, so that was like an interesting link. And then there were a few that didn't. But it was really about each of their stories and how they ended up there, essentially. And, you know, obviously Kay Graham's story came out in the Post, the movie that is, I think, out right now or recently came out. But she's really interesting because she's really interesting because she,

She was someone that did not have confidence going into that role. Like she was kind of given the CEO role because her husband passed away. And it was her family's business. And like how she, like, but she had the confidence and the nerve to like stand up to the U.S. government, right? So those two books love. I'm ordering them. And I can always reread because I feel like there's like little tidbits that I probably missed the first time around. Did you watch that Buffett documentary on HBO?

Which one? There's a few, but it's probably. It's pretty recent. It's only about an hour long. It's one where he goes to McDonald's each day, and depending on if the economy's ever done. I mean, he's, like, totally quirky. I mean, he's identified these companies and these people.

At the end of the day, he's identified people that he trusts. There was another investment that he did. It was like furniture mart or something like that. Do you remember it was like this old lady that came, this immigrant lady that came from, I don't know where, but like she was like a hard ass. And she started this furniture company by selling like basically, reduced cost furniture and grew this into this like ridiculous company because she was

I like she almost feel like she was like the Jeff Bezos of a furniture like she was just like you know ran that business so efficiently to the point where her competitors couldn't compete like there was just no way like she just charged less for everything and then grew from there you know what else I like those two guys munger and him it's not even for the I mean the business stuff's amazing but for the morals aspect of it like those are two like very morally good people. Yeah. And they show like what that looks like over the long term.

Yeah. The relationships, the reputation. All of it. Similar to what you're talking about in terms of building like longer. You can learn a ton just from looking at the way they are with how they interact with humans. How to treat people, how to treat people on your way in and on your way out. You know, those are really good lessons. That was amazing.

Thank you so much for coming on. Where can everyone find you? Pimp yourself out. She's like, I don't know if I want people to find you. You could blog, Levin, Act. Oh, so our company website, activate. That's an influencer marketing technology. We also have a small studio team that runs managed programs with brands.

So that's try. activate. Dot activate. Social. I mean, we're on all the different social media channels at Activate underscore social. We'll link everything to. Yeah. And what about your Instagram if you want to pimp it out?

Your new Amazon, your forthcoming Amazon page. I'll start doing, yeah. I am at M-M-M-M-I-U-M-I-U-810. Awesome. Thank you for coming on. Cool. Thank you. Hey, guys, wait, don't forget to check out the new podcast site over at TSCpodcast.com.

All of the show notes from this episode and all of our other episodes can be found there. It's this awesome resource that highlights all of the amazing people we've talked to, all the different books and resources they've recommended, as well as things that we've recommended. We also have this cool section for, new listeners who are trying to get caught up to speed. So check it out, TSDpodcast.com. And make sure to check out the episode that aired on Tuesday because there's two this week.

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