The Bossticks - #78: Raina Penchansky, CEO and Co-Founder of Digital Brand Architects, building a brand in the digital space and building brand

Episode Date: September 5, 2017

On this episode we are joined by Raina Penchansky, CEO and Co-Founder of Digital Brand Architects aka DBA (@therealdba)  DBA was founded in 2010 and specializes as a Top digital influencer agency that helps build talents' online & social authority by developing their brands & partnering them with fashion, beauty, & lifestyle brands.  On this episode we dive into the influencer space and how Raina and DBA has navigated the influencer arena and built a brand helping influencers grow their brands. We also talk about our relationship with DBA/Raina and what it takes to build a business/brand in the digital space.  To connect with DBA click HERE To connect with Lauryn click HERE To connect with Michael click HERE This episode is brought to you by The Skinny Confidential Bombshell Body Guide and Meal plan.  tired of combating inflammation & bloat? Want to feel lighter and sexier? Check out lauryn's latest 7 day meal plan. In this simple & super effective plan you'll find: + tsc grocery list with every ingredient you need for the 7 days. + what the f*ck to do when you love carbs guide. + quick and delicious recipes: breakfast, snacks, lunch, dinner and dessert. You will also find 28 weeks worth of fat burning, muscle toning, 27 minute long, effective workouts you can do at home with no equipment. USE PROMO CODE: HIMANDHER at Checkout for 20% Off

The following podcast is a Bostick media production. She's a lifestyle blogger extraordinaire. Fantastic. And he's a serial entrepreneur. A very smart cookie. And now Lauren Everts and Michael Bostic are bringing you alone for the ride. Get ready for some major realness. Welcome to the skinny confidential, him and her.

Raina Panshanski is the co-founder and CEO of Digital Brand Architects, also known as DBA. DBA was founded in 2010 and specializes as a top digital influencer agency that helps build talents online and social authority by developing their brands and partnering them with fashion, beauty, and lifestyle brands. DBA currently represents some of the best content creators in the space, including my lovely wife. Prior to founding DBA, Rana worked on global communications for Saks Fifth Avenue and coach. I consider her a great friend and mentor because like me, she enjoyed. a good wedge salad and a shrimp cocktail. Raina, welcome to the show. Thank you very much.

Wow, you really put some effort into that. I had to. I had to give her a pal. Wow, that's one of your best intros. And you mentioned our bonding over wedge salads. Oh, my God. Sometimes randomly, I'll just text you, like I'll go to a restaurant and just text you had a good wedge salad.

It could be random, random. Your husband's probably like, what the hell is this guy doing? Should we start great wedges of Instagram? Yeah. Let's do it. Reserve it. That might exist, but it's for something else. So Michael just wants representation, let's be honest.

I know, that's true. I'm playing hard to get. Okay, well. So, okay, give us, like, a background of kind of your influencer, influencer journey. So I was a coach, the head of global communications for the better part of almost a decade. And while I was there, we were just sort of seeing from a brand point of view that our customer was being inspired by different kinds of people. It was street style. It was blog-loving. It's just an entirely different subset of people that were coming up that were wearing coach and were inspiring our customer. So we were the

first brand, God, this has got to be 11 years ago at this point. We're the first brand to do a blogger collaboration. We did a handbag collaborations with five people. It was Emily Schumann, it was Carlos Closet, the glamour eye, what is reality anyway? And I'm, blanking. Oh, and I'm blanking on the last one. And they each designed their own handbag. And it was like revolutionary at the time. And they all sold out and they did really well. And it was amazing. And we just sort of said to ourselves, this is, you know, it's real. And people care about these people. And they have influence. And a light bulb sort of went off. And it was about really what are brands going to look like in the future? Like who's going to be,

who's the next X, Y, and Z, fill in the blank, who's the next Martha Stewart, who's the next, you know, Gucci, whatever. And that was really the starting point for DBA. We never thought of it as a business. We just thought of it as like, we were sort of inspired by seeing what was happening. And it was meant to be, how do we take these individuals and create brands from them?

So, so how long did you, how long after you did that campaign, did you leave coach and say, okay, there's an opportunity here? That's two years later. What year was that? We started DBA in 2010. So that's really early for the space. How did you start DBA? Do you start in New York or did you move out here?

DBA was started in New York and Karen, who was my partner and I were literally taking power walks along the West Side Highway together. We both lived in the West Village. And it was just like a kernel of an idea. And then I moved to New Orleans. for a relationship that ended like most lifetime movies do. Not very well. And I remember calling Karen and I said,

if we're going to do this, I'm going to have to do it from L.A. Because that's truly like the where talent lives. Like talent management really sort of like is born and raised in L.A. And New York is such an important city from like a brand and a finance point of view and a business point of view. But L.A. is like the home of talent. And so she stayed in New York and I came out to L.A.

LA. And that was that was it. I mean, it was like, it was such an organic conversation. I know you guys started out of literally your kitchen. Karen's kitchen, yeah, literally. So how do you take a brand that you guys started? I want to call it a brand, right? Okay. How do you take it out of your kitchen and get to where you are now? Like walk us through that because you guys, we're sitting in the most amazing, incredible, huge office. You've seen it on my Snapchat on my Insta story. It's white. It's bright. It's every single goal anyone can ever imagine. Like, how do you go from a kitchen to here?

So the best thing I think that we had going for us is that we put our heads down and like didn't pay attention to what anyone was saying. If you have an idea and like you know it's a really good idea, you're going to have a million people who tell you it's a bad idea. You're going to a million people tell you can't do it. For the first few years of DBA, people literally laughed at us. I remember a man saying to me, oh my God, you represent bloggers. isn't that like saying you heard cats for a living?

Literally, someone said that to me. I mean, we had people just essentially laughing in our face and slamming the door. I think that's when you know you're doing something right. Right. So you've got to be able to sort of push past all of that and just have such like a perseverance. I remember Matt, I was watching an interview that Matt Damon did

and he said that the advice that he gives to anyone who wants to act is he says, don't do it. Because if you can dissuade someone from doing it, then they shouldn't be doing it. Amazing. So you just have to put. put your head down and just do it and don't pay attention to anything anyone tells you and just sort of like focus on your one mission that you're trying to start trying to accomplish.

It's very similar to blogging. It is, yeah. I mean, you've got to have noise canceling headphones a lot of the time. Yeah, stay in your own lane. Yeah. Okay. Don't try and do too many things. We made, listen, we also made a lot of mistakes.

You're going to make so many mistakes. But you have to make sure that you have like a really singular vision because there will be so many times and you're like, oh my God, that looks really fun. Maybe we should do that. Or like, that's a really good idea. Or someone is doing that and like we could do that better or we should be doing that. That's when you get sidetrack and you make mistakes. I think sometimes we fall guilty to that. You guys are the king and queen of that. You love that. We love to do a lot of things. We are, but you know, I was having a conversation and every time we talk, I seem to have an idea with you. But I was having a conversation with somebody, even though sometimes it looks like I'm all over

the place, really I don't go out of my area. Like I'm not, like I always make the analogy. Like I'm in the digital space, but I'm not going and building boats or building homes or doing real estate. Like I kind of stay with the same. You are building beds for jets. Yeah, that's a little bit. That's a one tangent. But the point is, is like, even though it seems like a lot, I try to keep horse blinders on, at least in the space that I'm in.

Yeah. And look, as much as I make fun of you guys for having 10 different ideas, like on any given day, there's also something to be said for like being truly entrepreneurial in that way and like having that spirit. But you also have to know when to. focus on something and like when to let it go. Well, that's why I have you. Right.

So keep me in mind. It's a niece. It takes a village. And Lauren's relationship. I actually kind of know the story just because I was around for a little bit of it. But how did you guys meet? How did you find Lauren or how did you find Raina? What's the story there?

So we were in one of our original office, DBA office, which was an apartment building in Beverly Hills. That was like a really Melrose-esque place apartment. We were like in a courtyard. And we had like, we had residential Wi-Fi. It was like Time Warner residential Wi-Fi. It's like way early DBA office days. And I remember standing in the kitchen being on a call with you. And you had a brand, there was a brand that you wanted to launch called Dirty Birds.

Oh my God. That was so old. You guys, I still own that domain. Of course you do. And I haven't figured out how to, like, Go Daddy. You need to hit me up because I can't cancel that one. And I've tried to cancel it like 50 times. Yeah.

So, and it was a brand. It was called Dirty Birds. It was an, and it was at leisure or something in that space. Oh my God. That was like 2012. Yeah. And I remember everything like, I think you're amazing, but I feel like the name Dirty Bird is like not a great brand name.

I wanted to basically take the skinny confidential, use that platform, and create a brand called Dirty Bird. Yeah. And it was supposed to be like athlete. Now you guys, this is like a really good lesson here. I was trying to get all over the place. I remember you and Lily were like, no. Yeah.

No, Lily was not having that name. Well, I'm, thank God. Thank God. And you guys zoned me. And before you even started to represent me. Yeah. You were like, you can't do that. You have to zone in on the skinny confidential. That kicked my ass in one second. Yeah. Well, so after hearing about Dirty Bird, what, what made you say, okay, let's continue and still work with this person, right? Because you're the first interaction is no, don't do that. But then you still, you guys still better. It didn't have to do with you if that's the answer that you're looking for. I was, I wasn't honestly, at that point, I wasn't even involved. Michael hadn't really come. Michael didn't come to the picture until like two years later. Yeah, his personality slowly evolved. Yeah.

He was still slightly introverted in the early days. It's not that I was introverted. It's just that I was focused on the mattresses. No, that in the marketing, but I was just like, my, I've said this a bunch of times. It was really, really important for me for Lauren to have her thing. She's like fully capable. It's her thing. I didn't want to be that guy that's stepping into her space trying to get in.

You don't want to be involved in at this point, though. But you know, it's so funny. Michael prefaces every single conversation. that he doesn't want anybody the guy that steps in and then is in the meeting the entire time. This one,

you know, but was I in the meeting the first two years? No. I don't think we even... No, you eased your way in. You and I didn't meet until what, two years later.

No, no, no, we definitely didn't meet until a little bit later. Yeah. And then I won your heart and now here we are. That's it. And wedge sales ever since. No,

we want to know, I guess, how, because I know DBA is super picky. And I don't know if that's the right word to use, maybe exclusive. You really make sure that your talent,

I mean, I had to go through, I think, six interviews, some in person, some on the phone, before you guys considered having me on board. Well, I guess the question is what, like when you guys, let's not take Lauren, anyone, what is that selection process like and what do you look for? I know you guys are big on brand. So it's point of view. So if you said to me today what makes a brand, I would say connection.

And because a brand can be anything today. It's like it's a table, it's a person, it's a cat, it's a hotel. It's like it's the most overused, that and organic are the most overused words in our space. And authentic. And authentic and influencer marketing and the list goes on. But the truth is brands are about connectivity. It's like, do I relate to this? Do I like it?

Am I moved by it? Am I influenced by it? Like, do I want to purchase it? It's like, you know, check the box number of sort of questions that you ask yourself. But it's about your connection. So first and foremost, when you meet with someone, it's like, do I relate to do I connect to them? Do I understand how their audience relates to them and connects to them? Do I understand what their point of view is?

What are they trying to do? Because none of us need anything. You hear me say this all day long. Like we don't need to follow another person. We don't need to buy another thing. We don't need any additional pieces of content. And yet we're all consumers and we all are searching for more because it's just our nature and that's what we want. But the question is what's like what do you have or what point of view do you bring to the table that's going to differentiate you?

And how are you communicating that? And if you can articulate that, then there's a conversation for us to have. And then we talk about what the steps are and what the other categories are and how do we take that and grow that and build that. But there isn't a point to us or to DBA or to any manager or any agent unless there is a kernel of something there that you can build upon that is really authentic. And I feel like you guys as managers are not just involved for like the deal or the one-off, you know, making money quickly. I know you really, really are a visionary in the sense where you

get off on the long-term goal. So when you are, you know, getting someone on board, do you look at if they have longevity or does that not even matter? It does matter, but it's interesting because longevity today is different than it would. You know, it used to be back in the day, like, if you wanted to grow a band, you would like send them on the road for three years. I mean, no one, just our world doesn't exist in that sort of time frame anymore. But if we can't figure out what five years looks like for you, then it's probably a pass for us. Because you have to be able to sort of see some sort of a vision for growth and for the future. And that's not growth, not necessarily even meaning monetary growth, but just brand growth and audience growth and content growth and strategy.

And just where, what's the evolution? What does your evolution look like? Where do you see the evolution for this industry going? Like, I feel like you're such an innovator. Like you saw this. I mean, people that were laughing at you are probably sucking up to you. I can only imagine. Well, and also I think going back, like where, how is it changed since you started?

Because obviously nobody's laughing anymore. I don't know how many talents you represent now, but a lot. And cumulatively, I don't know how many millions and millions of engaged followers or audience they have. But how has that, like, when did you start to see the shift? When did you start to say, okay, this is really going to work and this is taking off? probably about three years ago, three, four years ago, there was like a real shift. And when people started talking a little bit more about video and VidCon and YouTube,

that was easier for people to understand. Video was a little bit easier because there's a direct relationship between entertainment and video. So that was a little bit of a shift for people once they could kind of wrap their mind around. Oh, so like someone who appears in a YouTube video can be in a movie. Like that's when traditional Hollywood started to sort of more take notice. And then that was also the time that brands kind of came around as well. I think that like most things, the pendulum is going to swing. I mean, right now there's so much out there.

I mean, between Insta stories and Instagram, Snapchat, and Facebook, and, you know, who knows what platform will come out in the next year or two. But there's so much, and I think that people are starting to tune out a little bit. So you really have to rise to the top with what it is that you're talking about. and you have to be really pointed and really, like, dedicated with what that message is. I think that there's a lot of people are getting tired of just sort of seeing the same thing over and over again, and something that worked for you today isn't going to work for you in six months. So it's really important that you think about what it is that people like and what the essence of it that people like,

but not doing the exact same thing day in a day out. That's a great advice. Let's talk about plateauing, because I've noticed recently, and I talked with Alex a little bit about this, that plateauing is happening. Like, people are starting to get sick of looking at everyone's breakfast every morning. How many times can we see it? Yeah. Where do you see people doing it right and where do you see people doing it wrong?

So doing it wrong is doing the same thing over and over every single day. So I think people get very caught up in, oh, that picture of me doing X, Y, Z thing or that picture of avocado toast got a lot of likes. so I need to make sure I'm replicating that picture a lot or that idea a lot. And a lot of these things live in isolation. So it's like on that moment, that's what worked. You know, for instance, what's going on in Houston right now is so devastating. And all anybody sort of wants is to figure out how they can help.

So if right now you're posting the exact same content that you posted seven days ago, it feels a lot less relevant than it did seven days ago. So our world is changing, you know, the political climate. that we're in is changing, you have to be able to understand what's taking place in the world around you to understand what people want to see. You cannot be tone deaf. And I think that the biggest problem and sort of the biggest thing that I see people doing wrong is being toned deaf. Well, and I think also playing it safe, right? We're just the same basic content over and you. You've got to kind of take a stance on something, right? Or you got to kind of take a position or have

an opinion on something, whether people agree with you or not. And I think if you, you know, like if you're not providing some kind of, I don't want to say controversy, but some kind of point that's different, something that's not the same conversation over and over, people are going to tune out. Well, because social media isn't necessarily solely for escapism the way it used to be.

There was an element of escapism that existed around all of these platforms that just doesn't exist today. I mean, there's too much going on in the world for you to just want to look at pretty pictures all day. You want, there's a balance. You want there to be, all of us love fashion, all of us love beauty. like I'm screen grabbing masks all day long, but I also want to understand what someone's like true essence is and like what their views and aspirations and like what they're doing to also advance, you know, the greater good of what's happening in the world.

You almost want to know who you're purchasing from as an influencer. Like if you're an influencer, a hawking product, like what are you about? Like you just said, what's your essence? Yeah. So you would say something that people are doing right is taking a stance and showing that side of their personality and their opinions and putting it on their platform as opposed to just avocado toast. Yeah.

And I think that people want to see that. I mean, I'm not saying that every single person has to be an activist, but it's sort of naive to think that you can get away with just posting the sort of status quo. because that's not what's really happening in the world. And I think people want to understand who it is that they're following. And they're going to start to tune out people who are just being kind of vanilla and middle of the road. Well, that kind of plays into community, right? How important do you think it is that bloggers and influencers nowadays cultivate a community

and really pay attention to their audience as opposed to just posting what they want? I think community is everything. I mean, it's what we've all built platforms on. I mean, without, you know, you love your audience. I'm obsessed. You're obsessed with your audience. You talk about your audience all day long. They're family to you.

And I think that that's real. I think people who talk about their audience and just sort of say, oh my God, my fans. I love them. I wouldn't be anywhere without them. That's nonsense. Like a lot of that is just bullshit. But your community and talking to them and engaging with them, I mean, there are real relationships and real, you know, real connectivity that happens from that.

And, like, you're amazing at that. And I think people who can really cultivate that. understand that, that's what the essence of this entire thing is about. I mean, we see it happening every day. I mean, there are people, the causes that you can draw awareness to, the things that are taking place. I mean, even in like the smallest way, there's a tremendous amount of positivity that can come from everything that we're all doing. And I think that's what's really important is sort of advancing that. I totally agree. I think with community too, it's important to acknowledge the community. Sometimes I see bloggers get questions asked or, you know, they'll get a

DM and Instagram. I think it's important to set aside a time every single day to actually listen, engage, hear what the audience is saying or what the readership thinks and reply to comments. I think sometimes influencers go the other route where they start to sort of become a celebrity and there becomes like a film between the readership and the blogger. And in my opinion, I would rather go the other way where I want to be sort of a role model where I can say you can come to my blog, you can get tips and tricks, and then you can leave and you can apply them in your own life in your own way. Yeah. Well, I think that it's interesting because a lot of people who started early on in this space, they had a sort of, you know, early days,

it was very much about like shiny, pretty, wonderful things and everything was through a very specific filter. So if you built your brand on that and that was what your relationship was with your audience, it can feel challenging to pivot from that because it's scary. And also, I think a lot of people assume that everyone in this space is this like extreme extrovert when it's the opposite. It's really interesting. There's so many, I mean, so many of our clients are really truly introverts. And there isn't necessarily like second nature to them to want to be an overshare. It's just that like they've created, that's what, that's what they've created because they love creating content and they love sharing, but they're really, really not extroverted. So there's also a little bit of

like, you know, a struggle there in terms of like how much do I share about myself personally because it's like not my nature to actually do that. What do you think these people are going to do? I was just talking about this on another podcast, how I believe that now you can't just lead with your looks or shiny pretty things. You have to have a personality or something to say to back it up and how we're going to weed that out is because videos become so popular now and podcasting is now a new place and Instagram live. You can't get on live and fake it. More importantly than that, it's that people are just, they're, okay, we've seen all the pretty stuff like, what is your opinion? What do you think? Who are you really? Yeah. And I think, I mean, I don't, luckily,

hopefully we don't suffer too much from being introverts. No. No. You need to be a little more introverted. But, no, I can imagine that for a lot of people that are introverts, like very talented people, creators, it's difficult then to say, okay, like there's a lot of pressure for them to come out of their shell now. And how do they compete? Like, what would you say to them? So I think that you have to find your medium. So, you know, I saw it for my entire career when I would deal with traditional talent, you know, like movie stars. You think that they're all going to be like phenomenally charismatic people and then you walk in the room with them and they're like the biggest duds. but they write books or, you know, it's entirely just about their sort of persona.

And I think that it's very much, you have to figure out what your medium is. Like, what's the best medium for you? If you're a super introvert and you don't want to show your personality, then Insta Stories isn't for you and you're going to have to really rely on the written word. And that's more challenging because people aren't consuming that sort of content the way they used to. And Insta Stories is much more snackable and what everyone loves. but good content rises up no matter what. We all find it.

You know, it's not, it's not... In any medium. In any medium. And it's not a coincidence when those things happen. And all of us at the same time, I'm like, oh my God, are you watching X, Y, Z show? It's amazing. Or did you see this video or this person? Good content rises up, but you have to figure out what your medium is, your medium is.

And if it's not going to be in the form of sort of video or Insta stories, you've got to work a little bit harder because people are less willing to engage with, like, the real. written word the way they are with video. Speaking of stars or celebrities, you've worked with them in the past, I'd say, like traditional celebrities. And now you're managing influencers, which I'd say are some level of celebrity, right? I don't know how you would consider. Big influencers, guys. You manage all the top. Like, I feel like you didn't brag enough. You manage the top of the top. I don't know if I'm allowed to mention any of them, but you manage some huge influencers. We do. We definitely manage some of the biggest influencers in the space. But so when you're, Lauren, including. Yeah. When you're speaking to, I'm the biggest, right? No? When you're speaking in your space,

yeah, in my space, in my headspace to the talent. What is the line between, like, are they, do you talk to them as if they're like a celebrity or do you keep them grounded or do you say, or like, how do you manage that? Because I know it's confusing, right? You have so much attention on social media on a daily basis, but then it's not the same as if, I don't know, maybe it is. Like, Tom Cruise walks down the street or, you know what I mean? Like, I don't know. How do you kind of deal with that? So digital talent and traditional talent are the same in the sense that it's the same as all of us. Like we all have very specific personalities. And so certain personalities work well with other personalities.

I'm very tough love always. I'm not the warmest and fuzziest. So you're straight to the point. You don't say. But certain talent have different kinds of managers. Like we have managers who are way more handholding and there are certain talent that gravitates towards that. As with any sort of kind of talent.

I didn't get the hand holder. What's handholding? That's okay though. I don't need the hand holder. What do you mean like hand holding? Like they'll just be like softer maybe. Yeah. But you know, listen, you have to know the greatest way to communicate is to know who you're

communicating to because you can't, you have to, you know, you can't, I can talk. I can have conversations with you guys that I might not be able to have with other clients because you guys, we have a different way of communicating with each other, which is a little bit more sort of like to the point and sometimes brusk and, you know. If we can get it out of line. No, my manager is Denise and Alex. I want to shout them out right now. I need someone that provides me structure and that is strong or else I'll override them

because I'm all over the place. So that's the kind of manager that I feel like you guys gave me as someone that keeps me on track and in line. Yeah. Well, and by structure also someone who follows up with you 16 times. About 40 times a day over text. Yeah. That's okay. But some people don't need that.

Some people are completely self-sufficient and just want it. You know, they want one email that outlines everything. and this is what I need from you or whatever that looks like. I mean, Gobi came on and said that. She's, Gobi's like that. She's like the best. Yeah. No, Gobby is like, just tell her something once and that's it and she's off to the races.

I try to, I aspire to be like Gavi. Yeah. Gopi was on this podcast. We'll link her episode in the notes, early episode. So I want to know about, let's say we have a lot of bloggers that are just starting out. Give your real raw opinion. Or influencers. Or influencers.

They're not bloggers or content creators. What's, I want your real advice. like on someone that's starting out in this industry because it can be extremely intimidating. I think you just can't try to be like anyone else. You have to stop looking at someone else's pose or looking at the way someone else takes photos or taking the route of sort of emulating someone is just not going to get you very far because ultimately what that's going to look like is just the poor man's version of someone else. And I think you have to really take a step back and understand what it is that you're bringing to the table. I think what's different. So do you think that

we're going to have an influx of influencers coming into the industry or do you think it's going to be a lot slower because it's saturated? Like, what's your opinion there? I think that there will always be people coming into this space in the same way that there's always new actors, there's always new musicians. Like in any creative medium, there are always people who are coming in and who are finding different and new ways of doing things or just feel a little bit fresh or relevant. It's never going to go away. It's not like all of a sudden one day, it's like, oh, there's not a single There are no more content creators. It's just not going to happen. Well, the funny thing is we just went and spoke at a high school down in San Diego,

which was cool experience. But if you ask, like this just didn't exist when we were kids, you ask the audience what they want to do when they're older. So many of them like, I want to be on YouTube. I want to be a YouTuber. Like, it's coming. Like this is, this was just not something that was discussed. There was no, there was no point in time when I was in high school or Lauren was in high school. We said, I want to be a YouTuber. Like, you would have got my dad would smack me upside the head. Right. But it's a real thing. So like when you look at the youth and there's a big majority of them saying that's what I'm going to be when I'm older you can see it's not going to stop it's only going to get bigger yep well and that's what people are consuming

I mean kids born today aren't talking about like and this might even be too old school for you guys but like must see TV on NBC which I grew up with like those those references aren't even there the only reference they have the only references they have are YouTube and Snapchat and Instagram like they're not talking about the old forms of media so I want to know where you see this industry in five years. I know it's hard to predict because you just said it's changing every six months. But if you had to really channel and think and really know where it's going to be in five years, what is like your vision for the space?

What is your vision for me? What is Michael's path look up? I'm just kidding. So in five years, you're going to have probably 20, between sort of 20 to 50 influencers who have the same sort of brand relevancy as like a Martha Stewart did in her heyday. Really? So you're absolutely, absolutely.

I want to know more about that. Well, I mean, you look at, I look at someone like, you know, Jake Paul, who's not, not our client, but, you know, he has this insane, insane engagement and following. And like, and he's super talented. And he came up in this space. And, you know, that's the kind of person who is going to be, you know, who's got the potential to be the rock. I mean, we see it all day long. We 100% have clients who, when I look at them, I think, okay, they're the next Lily Pulitzer or like that's the next Donna Karen or that's,

you know, any number of sort of different people in different spaces. And talk to me about product in this space. What do you see people doing wrong, right? Where do you see the product lines going? Because a lot of bloggers are sick of pushing other people's brands and they want to start focusing on pushing their own brand. And they should because they are their own brands. And if you have an audience who you're engaged with and you genuinely love and respect and you're passionate about something, whatever that is, you know, athlete leisure, dresses, you know, makeup, whatever that looks like, electronics, why wouldn't you want to do your own thing and create your own brand? I mean, it's an extension of who you are and your audience, if you're engaging with them the right way and

you're communicating with them the right way and what you're doing is really authentic, they're going to want to support that. It makes sense. It's the logical next step. I always say that I feel the Kardashians have done a really good job of engaging their audience and asking their audience, you know, colors. And they obviously content marketed with their lip kit and the contouring kit before they launched. Do you see a lot of influencers content marketing what they're going to launch before they launch it and making sure that it's the right product? Yeah. I mean, I think that a lot, if you're if you're an influencer and you're launching a product, you have to make sure that that is something that you have organically spoken about

for years leading up to this. Like if all of a sudden one day someone sends you, oh, you know where you can make a lot of money, it's in this category and the next day that's what you're promoting, it's not going to work. People see the strings. No one is, you know, no one's being fooled by anything these days. They get it. And I think that, you know, there are a lot of people who get really worked up about having

to write hashtag. ad or you know there are a lot of brands you like don't want clients to have to hashtag ad and but people don't care they're okay with it like your audience knows like okay that's fine you're allowed to make a living you're allowed to get paid to do this this is what you do this is your job but that's because I make a point to say and this is this is the truth I don't want to promote anything I don't like well I think they're okay with it as long as they know you're not pushing BS on them if it's something where she's like hey she really likes that or she really thinks that's going to bring value here then it's okay one time I did a partnership that wasn't the right fit

And my audience told me immediately, and I quickly learned from that. Right. And I think that if you were, if and when you are launching your products, you're going to be doing it in an organic way. I shouldn't say if, I should say when. But, and that's what it's all that's all that matters. I think people are genuinely okay. I mean, listen, it's, everyone knows the Kardashians make a ton of money. I mean, they're minting money with everything they do.

But that's okay because, like, they're using it and they love it and they wear it. And no one is like begrudging them the fact that they're making money off of these things. Do you think that's unique to them? Or do you think like, because we're kind of having this conversation, do you think that's unique to them where it's like people like, okay, they already live so lavishly and they already have such a great life? Like we already know they're going to have money. And then do you think there's some resistance with influencers?

Like wait a minute. Like you're not supposed to make that kind of money. What do you think on that? Well, listen, I've had this conversation before. And this is a really interesting conversation that I love talking about, which is that there does seem to be a little bit of this like, wait a minute, you're monetizing and you're not allowed to do that. It's like the old band selling out.

You know what I mean? Yeah. And I think that some of that comes from this idea that, oh, I could do what you do. It's not like you're not looking at an attorney and saying, oh, I'm arguing this. You know, you guys are, you're arguing that case in court and like, I could do that. I should be making that much money.

You're looking at someone who's like, who seemingly are just posting pictures of themselves or, you know, on a press trip or whatever that is. And you're thinking, oh, I could do that. do that same thing. Like, that's not fair that they make the money and I, and they make money and I don't. But I think that people have to really understand how much goes into this. There's so much. I mean, you're essentially publishing your own magazine every single day, minus the, you know, hundreds of people that work on the editorial staff of magazines. So it's,

I think some of what has to happen is there's got to be a little bit of an education process in terms of like, this isn't just me like sitting at home posting things. Like there's a tremendous amount of work and effort that goes into it. We were talking to Julie, the influencer podcast a little bit ago, and we were saying, like, there's still a pretty large level of disrespect when it comes to this space. People, like you said, people think it's easier. There's nothing that goes into it or just, I mean, but if that was the case, everybody would be doing it, right? Right. Well, that's, it's like most things. I mean, you know, you look at some of the greatest artists in the world. It's like, that's just splatter paint. It's like, well,

Jackson Pollock was like a visionary. You know, a lot that's always been the case with, with, creative mediums. And I don't think that's ever going to go away. I just think it's something you have to sort of, you know, you get out tune out a little bit because this is people's jobs. This is how they make a living. This is how they support their families. And like, Godspeed, good for them. And a lot of this also, let's be honest, like, this is like women. These are women who are out there killing it. And there is definitely a little bit of sort of, you know, backlash to this idea that like women are going out there and like creating an entire industry has been created that's like led by women so you know I don't do you think everything's kind of been created by women I mean essentially I think the men have just

we're looking at what we've just kind of been fooled right well let's be honest it's in the future's in our hands so it's up to us I'm fine I feel like I'm good with the women I'll let you take my pictures one day if you want okay one thing we've talked a lot about like the influencers and the individuals that you work with, but DBA also deals with a lot of brands and works with them in many capacities. What do you see the brands thinking in this space? Like what do you, what mistakes do you see them making? What things do you see them doing that's good? Like for me as an entrepreneur, you know, as I create business or product lines, what do you

see as being a mistake and what do you see as an opportunity? So as all industries evolve, sort of like sub-industries get created. And something that has been happening in the past few years is that there's been this idea of like, okay, how, if we're a brand, we have to be able to measure ROI. So there is a subset of this business that has been created by a lot of different, you know, marketers or agencies, whatever that looks like, who have said, I'm going to tell you how you measure ROI. Here's a measurement for RRI. This is what RRI looks like, RRI being return on investment. So I think some of the problem that brands do is that they attach this idea of like, okay, I have to put a monetization. value to this. If I'm doing this with X, Y, Z influencer, I have to be able to say, okay, this is what the

monetary value was. And that's really, really difficult in a space that sort of like lives and breathes in the air, so to speak. So it's like an Insta story, you have absolutely no idea necessarily. And there's a lot of ways that you can sort of, you know, talk about what R.O.I is and engagement. And obviously, all those things are really important. But at the end of the day, some of this is just about the essence. It's about like the spirit of something. It's about, you not necessarily being able to measure the result in an exact way. And I think that brands are getting tripped up on metrics of like decades past and the way that things have been done in the past

and trying to apply an old school metric system to an entirely different medium. It's not an apples to apples comparison. Well, they got all messed up with traditional. And then, you know, the type of advertising I do with digital direct response, then they got, oh, we can measure that. And then this new influencer space came out. And it's like you're trying to use all these old. metrics to apply to it. And really like with Lauren, she's a content creator. She's a PR. She's a

opinion. Like it lives in space. Like this podcast, for example, if we talk about a brand that lives there, like it's impossible to know how much reach this has, right? If somebody hears about something and then they go tell their friend and that person's, there's no way to measure that. But you know you're getting some results. I think the brands just have to look at overall revenue. Right, but it's hard. You can't always necessarily attribute someone to that overall revenue. And that's the problem is that a lot of brands are wanting to do this. You know, it used to be back in the day. I grew up as a traditional publicist.

It was okay, so you got a half a page in Harper's Bazaar, and that was the ad equivalency value of that is X, and then you have a multiplier, and you say, oh, but it's an editorial, so it's worth this. There isn't that today, and I think that brands really get tripped up on that. There was a client that was, they had like $25,000 in ad spend or whatever, and it was a choice between, okay, can you put $25,000 in product gifting to your consumers and get your actual product on hand,

or $25,000? for a billboard. Like there's an, oh, no, we can't give them the product. We've got to get that billboard. It's just this old mentality of that probably works better than actually getting your physical product in your consumer's hands. Well, here's what I want to say. When I launch a product, the most important thing for me at first, besides monetizing, besides anything, is getting the story out there. But I don't want to tell the story. I want other people to tell the story because they love the product so much. And I think if you approach influencers as a brand that like that, that, you're not just looking to quickly monetize, that you're looking for all these influencers to go out

and be your soldiers and tell your story in their own way to their audience that they know better than anyone. That's when I think an amazing partnership and synergy happens. That's where the magic happens to me. Yeah. Because you have all these people telling their audience, again, who they know better than anyone, the story in their own way. Right. Well, to say it's a, we have to stop looking at the influencer space as being separate from other creative media. It's the same way you talk about a restaurant you love. It's the same way you talk about a movie or a television show. I mean, we all are oversharers to some extent, like, oh, I just saw this, or are you watching

this? I mean, how many times do you have a conversation throughout the week where someone's like, oh, my God, you don't watch Game of Thrones or you don't watch this? It's the same exact thing in our space. And there's a virulness to that that is very difficult to necessarily put a dollar amount or to, like, capture in a finite way. and that's what we are, that's what we represent, this idea of, you know, influencer marketing at its core is about awareness and like a vibe and just a sense of things. And it's, and think about how any single thing that we all know about how we have found out about it.

We found about it through Twitter, through Instagram, like, you're not watching the nightly news and saying like, oh, I didn't know that. Like you knew about that six hours earlier because someone on your Instagram free talked about it or showed up in your Twitter or something. Like that's what the essence of this is about. It's how we communicate period the end. So how do you, how, if you're a brand go, you have to go to where the communication is happening. It still comes down to the best form of advertising, which is word of mouth. It's been the best forever. It's always going to be the best.

And it reminds you know those like those Gucci T-shirts that everybody's wearing? I remember the first time I saw it. I'm like, oh my God, like these guys are paying like 500 bucks for a t-shirt. Like really, Gucci's laughing all the way to the bank. Really they are like, hats off Gucci. But all of a sudden you start to see all these different people wearing it influences. And now like you can't get those T-shirts anywhere. Right.

I mean, look at Supreme. Yeah. I mean, Christ. Smart. Yeah. Okay. Before you go, what is your business mantra? Like, what's something that you live by every single day?

Or it could be a personal mantra. Um, I get there, pretty hand in hand. So I have a few. One is assume positive intent. So this is really important because we all communicate over text and over email and like everything gets lost. There's so much nuance. So I try to always assume positive intent because before you know it, there's like a

spiral and you've, you're 10 emails in, and there's a lot of exclamation points. And like, that's a, you know, like a slippery slope. Um, especially if you write blunt emails. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Especially for a few books. So I, I think that's a really good sort of like life lesson in general, like assume positive intent. Um, our DBA mantra is be aware, gain knowledge, have conviction. And, um, basically what that means is like, know what's going on in the world. Like, then learn what you need to learn and then be resolute in that. And that's kind of how you build a brand. And whether you're a person or us building a company and a brand,

those are the sort of two things that I think are definitely like guiding principles. What's next for DBA and you? What's the next move besides signing a huge contract with Michael Bostick? What is the biggest move you can make? What's the next thing? We're growing a lot. The team is growing. bringing on a lot of a lot of new talent and a lot of a lot of managers just a lot of growth here

and products digital brand products has been growing in a tremendous pace in terms of you know launching clients brands we launched um prem with gabby fresh and nicclet mason gabby gregg and nicolette mason and um that's the a plus-sized line that they had been passionate about and pushed for for close to four years before i finally got off the ground yeah they've been working hard on that. So things like that, watching people, like, and really helping people with passion projects, I think is the thing that really keeps me going. Will this go international? Is this international? We are. We have an office in Milan. Oh, I didn't know that. We, we, um, Asia is like a, uh, my second love, like Tokyo and, and Hong Kong. We talk about it a lot. I mean,

they're very specific markets and you have to sort of live there to really build a business there. so I don't know. We got to go over there and check their wedge salad situation. You guys love Hong Kong. You've been, you love Hong Kong. I love Hong Kong. Michael's a fourth Japanese. I am.

You didn't know that? No, I didn't know that. You can't tell? We don't need your whole life story. I've got a bunch of stuff. Where can people find DBA on Instagram? The Real DBA. All right.

Thank you so much for coming on. That was so fun and interesting. I actually learned a lot. And guess what, you guys? late and I kept you five minutes after. So Raina's got to go. Um, well, we should do this more often. This is fun. I know. It's fun, right? It's really fun. We're going to talk more. Michael, you and I'll continue our conversation. Yeah, we're going to continue the podcast conversation. You're seeing sparks are , sparks are flying here. All right. Bye, guys. Thank you guys. Thank you guys for tuning in this week. As

always, we appreciate your attention. We know you have a ton of options when it comes to content. So just the fact that you chose to stop by and listen to us this week means the world does. If you like the show, please let your friends and family know, the guy down the street, the cat, the dog, whoever, it helps the show grow and keeps us motivated to keep producing content on a weekly basis. If you happen onto iTunes and feel inclined to leave a review, please take a picture and screenshot it and send it to podcasts at the skinnyconfidential.com and Lauren will send you a little email with some tips and tricks. Thank you guys and we will be back next week.