The Bossticks - Diet Culture, Eating Disorders, Food Addiction & Accountability With Molly Carmel

Episode Date: September 15, 2020

#294: On this episode we are joined by Molly Carmel. Molly Carmel, LCSW is the Founder and Director of The Beacon Programs in New York City, an outpatient program that helps people with compulsive overeating, food addiction, and eating disorders find permanent solutions. On today's episode we discuss diet culture, eating disorders, food addictions, and how we can take personal accountability to help find permanent solutions.  To connect with Molly Carmel click HERE To connect with Lauryn Evarts click HERE To connect with Michael Bosstick click HERE Read More on The Skinny Confidential HERE For Detailed Show Notes visit TSCPODCAST.COM To Call the Him & Her Hotline call: 1-833-SKINNYS (754-6697) This episode is brought to you by BETABRAND and their Betabrand dress pant yoga pants. To try these pants go to betabrand.com/skinny and receive 20% off your order. Millions of women agree these are the most comfortable pants you'll ever wear to work.  The episode is brought to you by AncestryHealth  Your inherited health risks don't have to stay unknown. Learn if you're at lower or higher risk for some commonly inherited conditions linked to breast cancer, colon cancer & heart disease, with AncestryHealth. Find out what your DNA says about genetic risk with AncestryHealth®. Head to Ancestry.com/SKINNY to get your AncestryHealth® kit today! This episode is brought to you by Function Of Beauty One size fits all may work for your accessories, but when it comes to your hair we all need something a little different to help us look our best. What if your hair care was as unique as you are? Function of Beauty is hair care that is formulated specifically for you. No matter your hair type, they create shampoo, conditioner, and treatments to fit your unique needs. Head over to www.FunctionofBeauty.com/skinny for 20% off your order today! Produced by Dear Media

The following podcast is a dear media production. She's a lifestyle blogger extraordinaire. Fantastic. And he's a serial entrepreneur. A very smart cookie. And now Lauren Everts and Michael Bostic are bringing you along for the ride. Get ready for some major realness. Welcome to the skinny confidential, him and her.

Aha. What do you do when you don't want to do what you're supposed to do? Like, we all know what it is to, like, eat clean or whatever that means. But what about the days that you don't want to? How do you get back on? It's like that's really relationship forming. Well, well, well, happy Tuesday. Boy, have we got an episode for you.

I am very excited about this. We have Molly Carmel. She's made it her mission to help people find a sustainable solution to battle obesity and related eating disorders. She struggled with her own eating disorder for 20 years and she found no solution in any of the treatments. So she created the beacon where she helps her clients recover from similar addictions. She received her bachelor's and social work from Cornell University and her master's from Columbia's University School of Social Work. She has extensive training and dialectical behavior therapy, addiction, and nutrition. She also wrote the book, Breaking Up with Sugar.

We're going to get into it into this episode. It's a very real conversation. And I hope if you or anyone you know is struggling with an eating disorder or addiction, that this episode, can point you in a positive direction. This one is a long one we get into it, so we're going to get right to it. Let's meet Molly Carmel, the author of Breaking Up with Sugar. This is the skinny confidential, him and her. I was feeling called to eat chocolate chip bagels with extra butter in the dark while I watched Howeswives.

So that's why she's so cute? That's what she is made from chocolate chip bagels. But she kind of is. Sam's Bagels, Whitney Port recommended them, and I just had an addictive. to them. We ate so many, I mean, I just did it because I wanted to be a good partner. Like, I better, I better eat some bagels with you. Those bagels are, they're dangerous because did you gain the same amount of weight? I gained 55 pounds. When I left the hospital, 20 fell off right away. But it was not one of those things where everyone's like, oh yeah, I threw my jeans on

that I had and walked out. I know no one like that. Some people say that. And I don't know if people are either lying about it or they really did. And whatever it is, that's fine. but for me, I really wanted to showcase, like, what I was actually going through. Yeah. And I still have 20 pounds to lose, and it's been seven months. It's hard. It's not a joke. And I can't stand when people say I was, I'm running after my kids and the weight just fell off.

Well, that's like when people say, I just switched to skim milk. I can't. Or, yeah. Oh, I cut dairy. Right. And everything just fell off. You're like, I'm breastfeeding and it just dropped off. And by the way, if that's you and that happened.

God bless. Like, I'm jealous. That's amazing. but for me, that's not the case. Yeah, yeah. So introduce yourself to our audience. Give us some context about what you're all about. Sure.

I'm Molly Carmel. I'm a licensed clinical social worker. I am a food addiction and eating disorders therapist, so I have two specialties, addictions, and eating disorders. I've been in this field, which I always think I'm like 22. So when I say I've been in it for 20 years, it really frightens me. And came to it completely honestly, right? So my story parallels, my profession.

I struggled with food and weight from the age of, well, from when I was born. My dad passed away really tragically. He actually drove off a cliff in Big Sur. And when I, you know, found that information out, it actually is what kind of started my unhealthy relationship with food. I think if you looked at my family tree, there's plenty of donuts and bagels in it and lots of obesity. So I think I came to it naturally biologically. And then I think some of that trauma really informed the relationship with food. How old were you when that happened?

Right shy of three. Right shy of three. And so my mom would say like at four, I was kind of all about like, you know, where the donuts were of pickles. And so food was really soothing me and numbing me from a really early age. Did you understand what happened to your dad at that age or was it? I don't think so. I mean, I think I, my mom tells the story of like that when I was four and I asked where

my dad was, you know, I sort of like, well, how could you have done this to me? And I think another conversation for another time, I think that's a really spiritual, that's spiritual break in that moment. And I do think, you know, outside of food and weight, I think this is very spiritual for a lot of people. I think this is very emotional and very spiritual. I think you got to deal with the food first because it's hard to do the emotional, spiritual work when you're trapped in an unhealthy relationship with food. But I think it's a pretty comprehensive problem. I think we can see that culturally. Anyway, so my mom put me on my first diet at seven. No harm to her, right? It just didn't know what to do with me. I think she was outmatched. Seven. I know. I want to nutrition.

is at the age of seven. Wow. I know. I know. Did you know what you were doing at seven? You know, I remember it actually so well because I sort of couldn't stop eating and they were giving me like, you know, oh, here's what a portion size of turkey is. And I'm like, I can't stop eating. Why are you making me color pictures of Mr. Peanut? Like this is so weird. So I actually knew in that moment that like, I wouldn't say it like this, but a nutrition intervention was not like the thing. The other problem with that was that my relationship with dieting started in that moment, right? And so the parallel of having this really unhealthy relationship with food and this really unhealthy relationship with dieting kind of turned into such a mess.

And I got stuck in that cycle really early that so many people I think struggle with, right? Like getting looped into the beauty of like, oh, this will cure me, this will save me, going on this diet, you know, the diet failing me, losing maybe a little bit of weight, but then gaining a bunch of weight after that, you know, turning to food, which, you know, for me was sugar and flour 100% of the time. And then deep demoralization, deep pain, I think really morally, like something's wrong with me, right? Something's wrong with me. And that was a cycle that went on for years and years and years and years, right?

And, you know, my story got really gnarly. You know, I weighed 325 pounds, you know, had a really loose relationship with life. like just didn't you know and so part of what happened along that way is in some of those moments of quiet I had this knowing one of them being 13 years old when we went to when my mom sent me to weight loss camp which was amazing and fun but also part of that diet cycle right that just ran me and fed me and read me and fed me and never ever taught me anything like I just needed to know what to do and I had this knowing when I was 13 actually that I really wanted to help people to like solve this problem. And so along this path, and it was, it's really interesting. It's kind of like

that, you know, wounded healer sort of thing. It's like I was like gaining weight and, you know, all these nasty binge cycles and also helping people and working at weight loss camps. And I started a boarding school for adolescent obesity when I was 24 and still no solution and still no solution. And kind of this double life at the time too, because I was like an actively eating disorder, eating disorder therapist. When you say you had an eating disorder simultaneously while you were helping people, was it anorexia, was it bulimia, was it orthorexia, or was it something that you can't describe? No, I think it was pretty solid binge eating disorder. Like I couldn't stop eating. And then I think along the way I picked up all of them, right? And I was failing through conventional diets left and right.

No one I didn't do. I was failing through nutritionists left and right. I was failing through Ashran, I mean, there's no stone left on. I mean, I ate my way through bariatric surgery. I mean, I had bariatric surgery and ended up gaining, like, more than half of it back. How old were you when you had that? It was about 24. When you say bariatric, I think gastric bypassed. That's right.

So you got gastric bypass, you came out of it, and then you just kept eating. Kind of. Yeah. But did it make you lose the weight or no? I lost some of the weight. And then about five years in, I, you know, you get your stomach back. And so I just started binge eating again. You know, it's really, side note, I was so ashamed of this part of my story that I didn't, I almost

didn't put it in anywhere. And what I'm finding is there are so many people who have this part of the story. And it's like they are finding such solace from like that, you know, that vulnerability me too piece. Like I carried more shame about this. Because they don't feel alone. Right. Like that's the biggest thing is like if you feel alone and you feel ashamed, like then you can't start to heal because you can't start to talk about it. But if you feel like, hey, there's a community here. that understands what I'm going through. Like maybe Lauren and I might not relate directly to this story, but hearing it and presenting it to people like,

that's the whole reason we do this. It's like if there's somebody that hears something and it can help, they're like, oh. But, you know, I think that more people, if they have, like that's the human part of all of us. Like, people want to hear the vulnerable parts because they realize, oh, that's a human. Like they have issues just like me and I can potentially heal like them.

Yeah, totally. What does it feel like when you go in for this surgery that you probably, I would think, is going to fix everything? Oh, I was certain of it. If someone said you're getting that surgery tomorrow, I'd be like, oh, I'm good. Right, count me in. So you get that surgery, and then what does it feel like five years later when you feel, when you're binging again? Yeah, I mean, it was a medical solution for something that was much more, much cheaper than that, right?

A medical solution for something that's emotional, spiritual. And I think also relationship-based, like that breaking up with sugar, I use that title of the book because I think we've lost the idea that we are in it. We have two relationships that we have. to be in, right? One is with ourselves and one is with food. You cannot avoid a relationship with food. There's no possible way. And so I think I, listen, I mean, I think I was going to die and I think I didn't have me to help me, right? So it was what I had to do at the time. It was a life-saving effort. I think it did save my life. And then I think, you know, I went back onto

sugar and it took over, right? And that's how so was wins. And you see that happening a lot, but people aren't talking about it. You see people going for gastric and then it happens and no one's really... No one's talking. I mean, there are people who are talking about it, but I think people don't want to know that's true. They want to think it's a quick fake. There's something I think about all the time now recently. You know, obviously we love modern technology. All of us we use it. We're on this mic right now. We're looking on our phones. Like, obviously there's medical advancements that can really help certain things. But I think, you know, for the longest period of time in human history, we didn't have this modern technology or this modern medicine. And you kind of have...

The only thing you had was the spiritual element. Like you had to kind of go inward. And that's how our ancestors had to go and develop and deal with their issues. And I think we've gotten to a place here over the last, let's call it like 250, 300 years where you start to make these advancements. And maybe you forget about the human side of all this. And what happens now is we're so focused on what's coming in the future and quick fixes and all these things that we can use that we forget. Like a lot of these problems can be solved by looking inward and figuring out the spiritual side. But it's a much harder thing to do because nobody talks about how to do it.

We don't know what to do anymore. And the spiritual side is kind of hard. Like, I'm a hard, I'm like a hardcore meditator. And I think across the board it is one of the main solutions. It's also the oldest prescription of all times. But nobody knows how to do anymore. Nobody talks about it. That's the problem.

It's like we've gone to the quick fix and we don't do the hard work anymore. I guess that's my point. I love it. No, I think that's, I mean, I think a lot of what I sell in my book and in my programs is like, you know, long-term relationship. And I think diet, you know, billion-dollar diet culture is like, no, no, no, no, no. quick fix easy 28 days you're in you're out and I'm sort of like I'll see you on the other side of that right yeah we have all watched those commercials where you see that woman letting down her soft

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Yeah, I mean, it's self-sabotage. And I think lack of information, I think the problem with like unhealthy, you know, I would say for me, like I am 100% addicted to sugar, right? And the thing about addiction is it like tells you that there's nothing wrong. Right. And it actually says to you, no, no, no, I'm your solution. I'm not your problem. And I think if you look through the story of my story of, you know, redemption or whatever,

my story of creating a healthy relationship with food, which I have today, which is unbelievable because I'm the kind of girl that will like eat out of a garbage pail happily, right? And I just am peaceful and easy and happy and I'm thrilled. The common theme is sugar, right? Because I'm always turning back to it. I'm always trying to make it into a part of my life. And so, and that's what they say in addiction, right? It says that it's your solution, but it's really your problem.

So to walk the audience through your story after you, you binged after aghastric, what ended up happening? So I'm this eating disorders therapist. I am living this terrible double life and where I'm binge eating, kind of gaining weight, hand over fist, you know, dying to try to find something that works. I'm also prescribing at that time, which was hip and hot, which is low fat eating and calorie counting, which, you know, we know today doesn't. work. And I'm kind of, I'm coming, and by the way, it's not like I think me, you know, binging on muffins is the greatest idea I ever had. You know, it's not like I think, oh, this is so smart. But I am sort of coming close to being out of ideas. Like the shame is kind of boiling up. The self-hate is off the charts. And it's just, it's terrible. I also, in the midst of it,

I'm working at a eating disorder clinic, I wolf down three muffins. I go, and it's not sitting with me. I go in the bathroom to throw it up. sort of bulimically, sort of not bulimically. My boss walks in on me. And it was just like a moral low, you know, and she writes me this email like, hey, do you want to get some help for that? And I said, hey, just went down the wrong pipe. Don't worry about it. And it was like one of those moments like where it's like I couldn't look at myself in the mirror, you know?

And I had a couple of these along the way. But there are these moral moments where it's just like, wow, this is really going against migraine. You know, the story is like my brother decided to do paleo. And he's like a big guy. And I was like so out of ideas, so not wanting to give up sugar. But I was like, I don't know if Mikey can do it. Maybe I can do it too. And I stopped eating sugar.

And the two things happened. Number one, I went through complete and utter detox. And as an addictions therapist, I knew like that was something. You get sick? Just like sweating, exhausted, irritable cravings, like all the things you get, what I knew that you get when you detox from drugs and alcohol. I got all of them across the board. Were you expecting to detox from sugar?

No. Okay. I was like, what is? I thought you knew it was coming. You didn't know. No, I didn't. Like, I didn't get what I was doing. Like it just, I think it was pretty divinely inspired.

But I was like, uh-oh. This is more than a diet that's going on here. But the second thing is I also, very shortly after, had all the freedom I was looking for, right? So I stopped having cravings. I started being able to navigate binging in a very different way. I had a bit more of a grip, like the hill that looked like it was like a mountain, maybe just looked more like an up ramp. It just felt more manageable.

I did this other really crazy thing at the time, which I can't even believe that I did, which is I had this clinic that was all low-fat eating. I just, and I flipped it one day because I was like, I'm not helping these people. And there was plenty of research that supported it. I mean, I'm a scientist at heart, right? I nailed myself into the research. I got my mentors. I found my people. and I recreated my program and put it right in the clinic.

And you ever see the movie Awakening's? It was like all the people started getting better. All the people who were having the same problems as I was having were all like could, like the way I described when I broke up with sugar. And by the way, it's 11 years in now. No looking back, no interest in looking back. It was like going from seeing black and white to seeing color. You said something important that I think is important in any industry.

You said you were doing it one way and then you realized. it wasn't going right, so you switched the way. Yeah. I think it's important to be able to pivot and evolve no matter what career you're in and know that there's not only one way to do things and it's okay to change the way along the way. Especially when you're helping people. Yes.

Like especially when you are somebody's guide in life. Like one of my core values in my organization is evolve or die and I am shameless about it. And I'll just say to people, yeah, I thought it was. And they got upset with me, you know, and I said like, I am sorry. so sorry. But then they didn't when they started losing weight, I'm sure, and they started feeling healthier. And they got freedom, Lauren. Like that's, when you're in a constant diet cycle thinking that you're the problem and you finally find the solution, it's a freedom unlike anything I can describe. And I've had the opportunity to break up with a lot of things along the way. Like I'm going to

stop drinking. I stopped smoking cigarettes. I was pretty dark in my day. And it's like, that was what it was about. When I saw what was happening for me, I put all the pride aside. And it was research-based. It wasn't like, oh, God, I have this idea. It was like, okay, so the food addiction is really a thing. A lot of the people that I'm working with are at the end stage of all of this, right? They're at the end stage of all of this. And it's like, let's do the thing. And I did it bravely. I just, it was the, I just knew I had to. I couldn't sit and pretend. So how did you change your practice, like, from a micro level? Like, were you giving out food plans? You stopped counting calories. Like, give us some context on how you changed. I literally changed. I love such a great question. Yeah. So people had these like little self-monitoring journals where they're like write down their

calories. And again, this is how I was trained. It's all I knew at the time. That's what everyone was kind of doing then, right? Yeah, totally. And I was selling these like, you know, low-fat bar. I was doing the whole thing. I just one day walked in and I said, and I had conversations with people about it.

Like, listen, this is what I'm experiencing. This is what the research is saying. It doesn't seem like you're getting better. You know, let's try it this new way. I had people say, I want to go back to low-fat. And I was like, I will do that with you. Can we maybe do something parallel? Like, I got it.

Like, you don't want to let go of the thing you think is working. It's so, this is sort of why I believe in order to make permanent change with food, you have to divorce dieting. Like, no matter what your solution is with food, you have to get away. That diet culture is so deeply ingrained in us. Like, we're always looking for this, like, easier, softer, better, quicker, fast. And I almost think that divorcing dieting is harder than breaking up with sugar, if you ask me. What do you think about a lot of women that I've talked to using like Fen and Adderall to lose weight?

Listen, I had someone in my journey say to me this thing. When I couldn't find a shred of loving myself, I couldn't find it anywhere because, you know, the way you get self-esteem is to do esteemable and loving things to yourself. And I hadn't done an esteemable or loving thing to myself in a long time. And this woman looked at me and she said, listen, think of the person you love the most, do what you would do for her. For yourself. Yep. So this is what I would say to people who are taking Adderall and Fen, Fun. It's like, think of the person you love the most.

Would you want them taking Adderall and Fen Fenn Fenn so that they could like lose weight and get skinny? This can't be what this is about because there's no sustainability to that. Even if you look at the research around like the why, like the why, you got to access. a really different part of your brain for the why. And I don't know. I think Adderall and Fenfenn to get really skinny is like a form of self-harm. And why are we we big things to do in this world right now? We can't be doing it that way. And I think it comes back to the thing we were talking about before, which is, and I think this is with every diet. When I think about myself and I'm not someone that would, I'm not in diet culture, but like when I was younger

and I would have to, and I was doing sports, I was like, okay, like for this, I, you know, I box when I was like, I have to make weight here. And like, I would do specific things to make weight at a specific time. But then I would move on and like, I'm like, okay, that was for a short period of time to do this goal. And now I'm back to just normal eating. By the way, I've never seen anyone have a more healthy relationship with food than him. He's like neutral. I love it.

And I think like in that context, diets could be interesting if you're using it for a short frame of reference for a very specific thing. And then you're getting back to a normal relationship with food. If you're capable of it. Yes, if you're capable. I think the thing is exactly what Lauren is saying about you is that you don't have an ounce of an eating disorder. Yes. Right. You have a neutral relationship with her. So if you're like, yeah, like, let me just do a little crash. I'll take this out. It doesn't have a long-term impact. Right. People like me, I can't come back from it. Sure. Right. Hot damn. What? Look at that ass in those pants. Okay. So we have been talking about these pants that flatter the ass. They are beta brands, dress pant yoga pants. I wear them podcasting. I wear them sitting on the couch eating my sweet potato fries. I wear them on Skype. I wear them on Zoom. I wear them whenever.

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It's a win-win. Right now, all skinny confidential, him and her listeners can get 25% off their first order when you go to betabrand.com slash skinny. That's 25% off your first order for a limited time at betabrand.com slash skinny. Find out why women are buying five different pairs of these pants. you're going to go to betabrand.com slash skinny for 25% off. With that, let's get back into the show. So in that frame of context, my point is that diets could maybe be useful if you have the relationship I have with food and you're doing it for a specific short period of time, not Adderall,

but like, you know, like say you want to go paleo for a little while. Right. That's okay if you're going to do sports. Or say you're a wrestler and you want to cut weight and you need to, you know, eat a lot of protein and not a lot of carbs. I get that. I think where people go wrong with diets is they look at it as a permanent solution for the rest of their life and it's unsustainable.

and they can't keep up with it. And so they get stuck in this rhythm where they're constantly looking, it becomes this very stressful thing with like, oh my God, if I'm off it, then I'm going to crash. I don't know. You're going to know more than me.

No, I think it's, I mean, the problem with dieting is that, like, it's a black and a white thing. I'm good, I'm bad. I hate that black and white solution. Well, I also think if we behaved in any relationship in our life, the way that we behave with food,

we'd have no healthy relationships, right? Like, the analogy I use often is like, when we mess, when many people make a mistake with food, it's like they get a flat tire on their car, they get out of their car, they slash all the tires, torch the car, leave it in the middle of the highway, and then get upset that they don't have a car anymore. It's like we don't turn on our brains with food, I think largely as a function of diet culture, giving us these standards of what it should be and never talking about. I don't know any whole 30 does a little bit,

talks about a sustainable, like how do you do this in your life? And also, maybe maybe most importantly, as in all relationships, I'm sure you guys can attest to this, what do you do when you don't want to do what you're supposed to do? Like we all know what it is to like eat clean or whatever that means. But what about the days that you don't want to? How do you get back on? It's like that's really relationship forming. That's what I think we need to be talking about.

I mean, yes, I think there are many people who are in an incredibly unhealthy relationship with sugar. They don't know it. They don't know that taking it out may give them the clarity that they need in order to do the next thing that I'm talking about. But the real thing is like, well, how do you navigate life in a relationship with food? That's the whole thing. What do you do?

Like, you have the piece of cake. Most people just go eat the whole cake and then they continue and they continue. They get into the self-hate. They get into the destructive space. And they don't come back so easy. And that's like lost time. I mean, I just know for me also like that is lost time. And I'll spend my life helping people to not have to lose time like that.

So how do you get someone, like say, okay, if we can all agree, like, a slice of pizza is okay once and a while, like it's not going to kill you. For some people, absolutely. But how do we get to a point where, like, you know, somebody maybe like they never let themselves eat that slice of pizza, but then they do. And when they do, they're like, well, I already had the one, I might as well have the whole thing. Like, I think that is that the relationship we're talking about foods. Like, how do you kind of become okay?

Like knowing once in a while you're not going to be so strict and you're going to, you know, maybe have a cake or maybe have a pizza, but you can't, you know, then how do you not go over the edge? It's literally, it's so funny, like, because I treat very like, smart, intelligent people. This is the skill that I'm teaching. In the addictions world, we call it the abstinence violation effect, the AVE. And it's like all people know how to do is violate the abstinence.

It's actually how people overdose from heroin, right? Because they go back to that original amount. They go hard. You know, they go big. They go big and they go home. And then unfortunately they die. And that opioid addiction is like unbelievable. And a lot of what we teach people is like, okay, yeah.

Like you try not to have any slices of pizza if that is what speaks to you. you, right? If you do, there's no harming, there's no self-harming, there's no shaming, you do a little research, figure out what happened. Like, if you guys get in a big raging fight, I'm sure you sit down, tell what happened, hey, oh, wow, maybe we should wake up a little earlier. Oh, maybe we should take some time apart. Okay, well, now we learned that. Okay, great, let's move on with our relationship. That's literally what I teach people to do with food. And the thing that I'm always so saddened by is that it's really not ingrained people. It's ingrained with people to slice all those tires. And that's, it's a tremendous act of self-forgiveness and self-compassion getting into a new

relationship with food and yourself. Yeah, I think it's kind of like, you know, you have a really good day and you work out really hard. Like, I feel great today and, you know, I'm not going to like hurt my body. I'm not going to like eat bad maybe. But then maybe one day you're like, hey, I had that drink. Okay, well, maybe I'll have a few more or then like I had the slice of pizza. Maybe I'll have the rest. And I think there's what's, there's a lack of moderation there that I don't think people understand. It's almost like an all in or an all out mentality. It's like how, and I don't know what I'm getting at here. It's more like how do you just balance a little bit of it. The word also is resiliency, right? There's a lack of resiliency, which I think it, and there's a lack

of forgiveness. And I think that when you really think about that you, I really think your relationship with food informs your relationship with yourself, right? And so I mean, and then that way it's a one plus one is three, right? Because you can work on them both and you're good to go. But I think that this is what goes wrong. I mean, A, I think there are some people, and this has been my experience in treating thousands of people, that moderation doesn't work. And then they're on this endless cycle of trying to be a moderator when, you know, an apps, more abstinence-based model works better for them. Okay. So let's talk about those people. So say you're somebody that moderation, it just, it doesn't register for you, it doesn't work. Yeah, I'm one of those people.

So we can just, you're sitting with her. You know what I mean? How do you, so when you think about, you know, let's say sugar, how do you regulate that? Now, do you say, okay, like I can't, Like, I just can't have any or I can have a, okay, none. So it's like. I do zero sugar. So walk us through a day of your eating just because I need to understand what no sugar looks like. Are you replacing it with monk fruit sweetener?

No. Walk us through the whole thing. Okay. So like I'm a big, I love research. And so like in my book, there's like a relationship like relationship status quiz, which is based on the Yale food addiction scale. So like I really believe and because not all addiction looks the same. And I think there's a variance of this.

So on that quiz, I'm a 12 out of 12. I got them all. So for me, like, no sugars, no sugar. Now, am I talking about fruit? Absolutely not. Am I talking about, like, dairy? Absolutely not. Like, not so crazy. But I think this thing with monk fruit is really tricky because for some people, that monk fruit ends up being a little bit like artificial sweetener and tricking the brain into thinking that's what sweet is. So it's kind of like taking a narco when you used to be addicted to heroin. I love this. Yes. Okay. Okay. A little bit. A little adderall when you used to be into meth. I'm so into these analogies where we were really, you and I could get along.

That's right. That's exactly right. And I think the problem with artificial sweeteners, and for some people, monk fruit is that then you're eating an apple being like, well, this ain't sweet. Like I eat a banana and I'm like, this is some good stuff. So, you know, right now I'm into two things. I'm very into Ezekiel bread because the thing is also I don't eat flour. Sugar and flour are very much the same.

When you grind up the flour, your brain reads it the same as sugar. So I don't eat grain flour either. I really promote that for people that I work with who have the same problem that I'm talking about. But I'm very into Ezekiel bread because the sprouted grain all day. So I have that with like, I don't know, some eggs, something exciting. I mean, or I'm very into like a queer oatmeal with like a non-dairy, but it's very hard to find a non-dairy yogurt that doesn't have a ton of sugar. I put on my sweater and went to Whole Foods and did some research. Holt has a good one. I would like to know what your opinion is on. I don't know them.

Okay. I'm going to send you them. I can't wait. Yeah, it's like a probiotic. I don't think there's any sugar in. I'm so excited. Okay. How do you identify? Wait, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. We didn't get to lunch. We just don't get to. We just don't know what I mean? So, how do you know, so how do you identify if somebody has a full sugar addiction compared to somebody who's maybe just overeating? It's a really good question because I don't think you should have to give up sugar if you don't have to, you know what I mean? So this... That's kind of what I'm trying to get. They have very... Surprise, you don't have it. No, I know that, but I'm saying like, because I imagine in your world, you know, you meet all sorts of people. And you have to be able to identify, like,

who has an addiction that is an actual addiction and who's somebody that just has a very bad relationship with their diet, it doesn't know how to diet properly. Absolutely. Well, I think that the other thing that I think is so key in all of this from research. So there's actually no evidence base in like any weight loss or the evidence base only says one thing. And it'll make sense, I think, to all of us, which is self-determination is really the thing that helps people to make permanent change, which means, like, you decided on your own. It's your ownership, right? So mostly, before I work with people, I have them take the quiz, you know? And then I have, and then we kind of reason it out. A couple questions from the quiz. Just give us, like, one or two.

Great. So do you eat, you know, these foods despite negative consequences physically? So, like, has your doctor said to you, hey, you got to, like, from a diabetes, are you pre-diabetic? You got it of sugar and then you like go home and eat an ice cream cone. This happens across the board. Have you made multiple attempts to quit and not been able to do it, right? Do you eat more than you intend to? This is a big one, right? So you're like, I swear it's like only the serving size of the Ben and Jerry.

You're done with the whole thing, right? So all my answers are no to that. Great. So that's good. I mean, for you, it sure is. So do you want all knows? Well, yeah. You want all no.

Your ears or nose, too. He has no attachment to food. Well, yeah, but I mostly want to hear, so like, I try and get out here as we go through this, if there's people that are listening and like, okay, say that you are mixed, say you're all knows, we can, okay, so if we don't have that issue, but say there's people that are all yeses, then you would say, okay, like maybe there's an addiction here. But if there's, what if it's like, hey, I answered yes to some things and no to others, like, what do you do there? I mean, I think the thing is addiction is a progressive illness.

Okay, so you think you'll progressively get to the yes. Yeah, and here's the other thing, again, with self-determination, I think there is a resetting point that is incredibly important for people who are struggling, who have some yeses, right? And the book has a 66 day plan. Now, let me tell you something. When I was going and selling this book, a lot of unhappy publishers with that number, right? Because they were like, can it just be 28 days? Can't you not include flour?

I was like, no, but you don't have to buy it. The 66 days, I went to the research because I was like, when is the first day that you get automacy? Like, when is the first day where this is more of an intuitive? and the first day was 66 days. So the whole fourth part of this book is me being like, okay, now you go figure it out, right? Like I don't, because it is such an individual process, right? So I don't know. Maybe after 66 days you can do monk fruit.

I don't know. And no one wants to be on a fucking diet their whole life. I mean, I don't. And I do it for a living. Right, right. You know, and I don't want anyone telling me what to do. I'm a defiant girl. Like, you know.

Yeah. And I also think every, like everyone's different. I just found out that my blood type doesn't do well with gluten and coffee. Right. So I cut out gluten. It's actually okay. I found a bread I really like. I'm obsessed with this bread called bread seriously.

Oh, cool. I'm going to send you a couple things. I want to know what you think about these. Okay, I'm excited. Okay, so I'll send you the coconut yogurt and the bread. Great. And you can tell me. We're making a grocery list.

And then I cut coffee out and replaced probably 90% of it with matcha. Okay. Yeah, you guys love match. I don't know much about match. I just, I like it because I feel like. I don't get a crash. That's amazing. You have to look into what works for you. Wait, hold up. We're going to take a quick break to talk about ancestry health. Now that I'm a parent, ancestry health is even more important because I just feel like you can cross off a few things

on your list when it comes to knowing about your family's inherited health risks. We talk about this a lot on the show. The best way to predict what's going on and what's going to happen with your health in the future is to look at what's happened previously to previous family members, previous generations that have been in your family. And so ancestry health is an amazing tool to figure out what's actually going on and what you need to look for. I think so many people wait till it's too late to figure out some of the health complications they can potentially have later in life. And I personally am all about preventative care in every single area, preventative beauty, preventative health. So this is like one of those things that you

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up to 80% of the DNA differences linked to the most common form of inherited breast cancer. So it can help you get ahead of it, prevent it, beat it, defeat it, and make sure that it doesn't become a much bigger problem in your life. It's so easy. You get this box delivered to your house. You take it out. You spit in this vial and then you send it back. Super quick and efficient. Find out what your DNA says about genetic risk with ancestry health. Head to our URL at Ancestry.com. Skinny to get your Ancestry Health Kit today. That's ancestry.com slash skinny.

I believe this so wholeheartedly because it's research-based, right? So I think we all need like some holding, like reparenting, whatever you want to call it, when it comes to redefining our relationship with food. But just like parenting, I think there's a day that you got to go self-determine and figure out what works for you. And I think that this tire slicing metaphor really comes in here because if you're training that, you know, someone's like, well, what do you? think about this protein bar and I'll say why don't you go see if it works for you and then you

decide what you think of this protein 100% couldn't agree with you more like that we have forgotten that we have these beautiful brains instead of someone telling you what you like you have to be your own guru and decide what works for you thousand percent like I said we were talking earlier on this show and it's like let's say we have 300 episodes or so and like with that let's say there's you know maybe 250 guests have been on here and like what we try to do is I'm hoping people there's a segment of our audience that's listening to be like, wow, I really resonate with what she's saying. I really like it.

I'm identifying. I'm going to go and reach out to you later. And like, that's great. There's some people, it's like, maybe it doesn't. I don't know. Like people have to be, like people have to do their own research and decide what works with them and they can't take everything as a blanket statement and something to follow. Well, I mean, I think that's what I'm saying.

I mean, if somebody tells you that there's only one way, run away. You know what I mean? And the thing is I come from the eating disorder world where they don't believe in food addiction. I mean, literally like, I'm like, I'm like, Christopher Columbus in the eating disorder world being like, yeah, so I think food addiction is a thing. They're like, no, world is flat. I mean, that's because you were a practitioner of it. And I'm a, and I'm a recipient of it, right? So the whole eating disorder world is like, no, no, only moderation, only this. And I'm like, what do you mean only? Like that's, and it does really not take into account diabetes, insulin resistance.

I mean, there's a part of the breaking up a sugar model that is the model for pre-diabetes, diabetes, because I also think that people get in a weird rhythm where like, say that you find somebody that's promoting X diet. And so you're like, I really identify it. So then you only seek out people that validate that diet and you never go outside of that. And I think Lauren and I always talk about on the show, like we're learning at the same time. Like I'm learning from you right now at the same time at the audience. Yeah. And it's interesting because we do this so often.

It's like, okay, like I really like what she said, like her heat. But also a lot of times we're like taking something from guests and leaving others. So it's not like you have to be somebody that's willing to have an open mind. And it's like, okay, some things are going to work for me and some are not. But I'd rather have that than just talking to the same type of person over and over and over to check a box. Well, yeah. And you guys, I think the relationship metaphor is so important here too, which is to say the relationship that you guys had when you were like 12 is not the relationship you guys have today. It's evolved.

I think my relationship with food when I started breaking up a sugar 11 years ago is not remotely the same as my relationship today. I've grown. I like different things. I don't know. It's more capable of being able to manage things. And I think, and that's, I don't know, like how we need to be in all relationships and in life, be open-minded, make mistakes, come back. The core of my knowledge, like I don't believe in intuitive eating.

I believe in something called, I've named it, humble eating, right? And humble eating to me is like, I know what worked for me and I know what doesn't, and then I trust my intuition, right? So I don't, I mean, I'm having lunch with my cousin today. I'm not like, oh, my God, you know, where are we going? I'm like, I'll figure it out. We'll be fine. It sounds like you almost are doing an AA for food. And it sounds like people are fighting you

against it because like you said, they don't really think it's an addiction, but it is. Yeah. For a lot of people, it looks exactly like a substance addiction. And I mean that in both ways, right? I mean in like the bottoming out of it, but I actually really mean it in the like resurrection, Phoenix rising part of it. I mean, I have watched people's lives transform. Like relationships, taking risks, jobs, loving themselves, and all a function. I have this Facebook group. I watch these people. I'm like, one's going, you know, jumping out of airplanes. The other one's like making up with her husband. The other one's like breaking up with her husband. It's like, and it's all a function of, and I think there's a piece of like, God, I mean, being in this diet cycle just

wrecks your soul. I mean, it's a recipe to kill a spirit being in a constant failure cycle and finding a solution to it, it's like magic in a way. It also is hard, and I'm just speaking from pregnancy when you gain a lot of weight quickly. It's, it's, it screws with your identity. Absolutely. There's so many different layers, like you said. It's not just, it doesn't just have to do with food. There's so many different things that play into it. And you can't really understand that because you're not attached. No, but one thing I, when you were saying with about addiction there is like, we've had some addiction episodes here with, you know, addicts on the show and to your point, like some, and a lot of really successful cases that are people that have risen like a Phoenix.

And what I got from those is that during the time that they were abusing substances, they really weren't themselves or allowed to be themselves. They're like living under a fog and not allowed to be who they really weren't. And as soon as they got clean and got rid of that substance that was controlling them or that, you know, had control of them, the reason I think that they rise like that and they become is because they actually get to be themselves for once. And like so many of us that don't have addictions don't understand that.

But imagine like going through, life being controlled by something. You don't necessarily, I mean, it's a real thing, obviously. We've had enough conversations to know that. But I think the reason that they become so successful after if they can get clean is they're finally able to be who they really are. I think that's. And I think, you know, it's all about the food and it's not about the food, right?

And I think the other thing, which is when you put, for me at least, like when I stopped eating the sugar, then I sort of got what I had to start to do. Like my emotional spiritual work began because I wasn't. so fogged out. I mean, in that way, the life I live today is full of like joy and love and risk taking and amazing and like I feel things big time, big time. And I had to learn how to not be so feelings phobic because then I didn't have to numb myself all of the time. And so I think there's this big piece of this recovery effort with food, with alcohol, with drugs, with all of it, that you have to really relearn how to do life when you take that numbing substance out. And that's what I

see in that parallel between addiction and food addiction. It's like use it, you know, as a numb. What are some self-care things that you do now? I know you mentioned meditation, but can you walk us through a few things that you do that you fill your life with? Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I'm a very high-maintenance gal. Hello. I sometimes start. If I don't get my breath working in my fucking three-minute freezing cold shower, you better watch out. Oh, my God. I need eight hours of sleep. Okay, so I can come over. I'll be fine. Yeah, like facial massage. She finished her morning routine like 10 minutes before we got her. I'm telling you.

But I sometimes I start patients at 10 and I'm like, I don't know if I can do it, you know. Oh, don't put me on a fucking conference call before 11 a.m. No, I'm with you. So if I had in my ideal world, you know, I believe hardcore morning pages, like I'm a morning, you know, Julia, because, like, I mean, I just, I wake up so crazy. Like, if you talk to me before all of this, you'd be like, I don't think you should come on the podcast. You're a little, you know, you're bonkers.

You should do the morning pages. Talking to me? Yeah. They're so good. And I don't know, just across the board, I just think so many people I admire do that. So I'm a big morning pages person. Or like my version of that is, listen, we know a lot of people. Checking Twitter is not the morning page.

No, but my version of that is also like if you go into a journal or like I read in this book called The Daily Stoke, which I've talked about. Like I think some form of journaling getting your thoughts. Yeah. So you do the morning pages. So that's kind of a version of morning pages. It's a little different. Yeah, I do the morning pages. Love them.

I always think about like my own spirit or journey people like, you're amazing. And I'm like, no, no, no, none of this by choice. like all of it via desperation. So I picked up all these habits from like usually like in a very crazy desperate space. And then I was like, oh, look, I feel so much better from this. So the other thing, I'm a big transcendental meditator. Okay, so this is where you went and you learned how to meditate for a day and you have a word, right? I have a mantra, yes.

But you can't tell anyone. And I don't. Yeah, I wouldn't tell anyone. I know. I'm freaked out by it. Yes. So you do it 10 and 10 or do you do 24? I try to do 20 and 20.

Oh, my God. I know. I do it imperfect. I believe it. I believe in imperfection. I believe so much of something is better than nothing. I always try to get one in. And I actually try to, I sometimes do 10 in the morning. I think the afternoon one, I think, is where all my energy comes from. I get so much done in a day. And I believe it's the function of the afternoon meditation. I really do. Do you just sit there and close your eyes and say your word? Kind of. Yeah. So you can do it anywhere. Oh, yeah, totally. Okay. Yeah, I try not to be that high maintenance. It's about like location, things like that. I'd really like like a Wyoming landscape. I could use some buffalo, like earplugs,

eye mask. No, I try to like, because I feel so high-maintenance all, you know, sometimes I feel like such a soft shell crab, you know, in a hard crab life. And then I'm a big, you know, I believe in prayer. I do. And so I have a bunch of prayers that I kind of try to just connect with, you know, the divine or whatever you want to call it. I just, for me, it's like when I'm full of myself, like not a good idea comes to me. And I think in my experience of just being in this world and being blessed with like writing a book and getting to help people, like it's just been always from intuition and what I think is almost like a download. And I just like to connect to something bigger and I'm big, big, big, big into that. The other thing I'm really big into is connection, you know,

that research that talks about, you know, the opposite of addiction is connection. So I'm very into, like checking in with my people, you know, like, and I'm big into teachers. To me, like having teachers and you know, having their podcast back when we were able to go see them, going to Kripalu, going to something like that being, just always being filled with new ideas because it helps me to inform the work I do. I mean, I sit with people all of the time who are suffering and it's like I need to be having fluid ideas and an open mind to be understanding where they're coming from and a constant curiosity about how to be able to help guide them. That is so interesting that you say that because I was reading

scar tissue by Anthony Keats is all about his addiction. And he said the whole thing of AA, people don't realize, is not that you're going to AA to get help. It's that you're going to AA to help other people get sober. Yeah. And that's sort of like what you're saying. It's like to keep you sober from sugar, you're helping other people stay sober. And I think to keep me in like my best self, like there is a prayer actually, it's from AA and it says like, relieve me of the bondage of self. And it's like when I think about myself and my addictions, like, it's like I'm so like, like my life felt like the size of a postage stamp, you know, so small, so self-absorbed, so scared. And what I find is in these practices and in not eating sugar, which is like one of my

big practices, I just, I'm allowed, I can be expansive and I can do things and I can, and I think a big part is the, is the helping other people and receiving help, right? Like, there's so many people right now that care that I'm on your web, that I'm on this podcast because I was so nervous to be on it. There's like, why? I don't know. I'm just made that way. We just shoot the shit. No, I'm like having the best time. I think it was really wasted energy.

It's such waste. Anyone that comes on this podcast do not be nervous. Yeah, please don't. It's the best time. I always think about it like basically like we, I mean we have the benefit of having the equipment, but like it's just like if we were at lunch or dinner. Literally like just so happy to be with you guys. I'm having the best time. But I think what I'm saying more is like when I get nervous, like I have a list of things I do, right?

I reach out to people. I do prayer. I do meditation. I do breath. I love breath. I'm a trained shaman. and bowl healer. I'm a trained Reiki master. Have you ever done to Tibet? Hold on. Hold on. One, I want to do that as we've never done it. But two, I never,

I went to a Reiki master in San Diego in time. I've never done it before. She should turn me on to this moment. I've only been able to do it once. We were there for what, 90 minutes. It felt like four seconds to me. Ain't it? What the hell is going? Hey, like listen to this one. What is going on there? I mean, it was amazing. The baby was breach in my stomach. It was breach. And I went to this Reiki master. Her name is Sage. at Encinitis acupuncture and massage. And I felt the baby flip. She flipped the freaking baby.

And normally I don't believe things like that, but I went to the doctor with her literally a few days before, and it was. I came to him. I go, the baby flipped. He goes, oh, what are you talking? And we went back and it was actually true. So I was like, oh, holy shit. Oh, no.

Oh, no. Acupuncture, all that. I mean, I had like fibroids and I went back and he's like, where did they go? And I was like, you know, maybe we should do acupuncture on Pixie. It's so helpful, huh? Oh, again, I believe in like the oldest forms of prescription. Sure. Of course, it's amazing.

And because it treats mind, body, spirit. That's like, what are we doing, just treating this one thing and we're like suppressing all of it and like, ugh. Well, that was my point earlier is like we've gotten away from the things that have worked for thousands and thousands of years that probably take longer and are a little bit harder to do and require you to look inward and face a lot of things in a much more difficult way. Absolutely.

But, you know, we're not doing it anymore. And so we're just doing these quick fixes. I think that's why the world's in a lot of pain. Me too. Nobody wants to wait. And like there's a lot, you know, I'm trained in dialectical behavioral therapy, which is the treatment of borderline personality disorder and chronic suicide.

That's like my training, my background. And the program developer, Marshall Linehan, one of the main parts of it when you're trying to help someone not kill themselves is teaching them distress tolerance, right? And because if your coping skill will be trying to kill yourself all of the time when you're in distress, it's not going to work out well. I say the same thing with the food, right? Like, if you're going to constantly turn to food as your skill

and we don't have a whole new skill set, then you actually can't get well. I think this is an important piece. And as you're talking about the world, it's like we have lost all frustration tolerance. I mean, there is just not a minute, you know? And I think, like, I even just think about if we're sitting at dinner, we're all sitting at dinner, oh, who sings that song?

Nobody thinks for a minute about it. We're just like, here, let me think about, oh, let me type it in. Okay, Yahoo, this is. And that's, I think, the piece of meditation that's so important. It's like it just allows for you to slow down. And I think we've also forgotten about our own internal wisdom. So that's what I'm saying about the first you are.

This is going to be a statement that people, a lot of people on this show are going to get mad of me before. I know it's probably of all the statements. People go and they find, like let's talk about diet specifically. They find a diet that they think works for them. Turns out then it doesn't work for them. Instead of taking accountability, like I was looking for a quick fix and didn't actually want to do the work for myself and didn't want to go do the things that I know I should do

to get healthy, they attack the dietitian or they attack the person. It's like, listen, that person's not perfect either, but like I believe in a concept of extreme ownership. In my life, everything is my fault. If this company's not going well, regardless of somebody else screws up, it's my fault. If this podcast isn't going well, it's my fault. Everything is my fault, but that enables me to take action to improve my life, right? And I think people, it's because they're looking for a quick fix. And if it doesn't work, instead of taking accountability, like, wait, I can change my life habits to take accountability for myself, they go to look and blame others and attack them. And it's like, it's really not about them. It's about you and your relationship with yourself. And even if the other person is

at fault, you know, we're the only people that can change. This person could be the shittest person in the world and maybe they're doing bad practices and you shouldn't have gone to them. Right. But at the end of the day, like, you are accountable for doing them in the first place. Yeah. And I think like that's the piece. I mean, that's the piece of, I think the beauty of like personal accountability is like other people, you know, in DBT, they have this part and they're saying, You know, your problem, you may not have caused all of your problems, but you can solve them, right? Like, your problems may not be of your making. All this bad stuff may have happened to you, but right now you can heal.

Because I think a lot of this is shame and blame, and I think those are really toxic emotions that I think are necessary. I mean, we ought to work through them. But at the end of the day, I love what you're saying, which is, yeah, like, I'm responsible for me and my part in it. I just think you can't heal unless you're willing to be fully accountable to yourself. Like you can blame everybody. And listen, some of that blame is probably warranted. Like maybe there's somebody you're working with that's not a good person or maybe they're giving you a bad recommendation.

Like, sure. But at the end of the day, like, it does you know good as an individual unless you're willing to take accountability and look for answers that are right for you. Well, all relationships are transactional, right? So if one person changes in the relationship, then the relationship has changed, right? Yes. That's a very good quote. Say that one more time.

Try again. But all relationships are transactional. And so if one person in the relationship changes, the relationship changes, the relationship has changed. I love that. That's a big, if you're in my therapy, that's like a big one in my therapy. I like that a lot. And I'm always like, and so isn't it good that we're here. That's your next book. I am asking a selfish question. I know someone with borderline personality disorder and I'm sure there's a lot of people listening. I didn't realize that you, like that was like the foundation of what you specialized. And can you talk about that a little bit? About borderline personality disorder? Yes. And is there a cure? Like what's how do you deal with someone like that? To me, because because I treat that or I have treated that condition, And it's actually really interesting. The reason I use it in the food addiction model is that one of the symptoms of people with BPD is that they're chronically invalidated. And they're chronically invalidated from a very early age. And so part of how that condition starts is from being chronically invalidated. And so if you think about it, like, so I'm hurt and then this person

isn't listening. So then I get a little louder. And then they stop listening. And then they're still not listening, but a little bit more angry at me. And then I get bigger. And if you know, people with that condition, you're like, oh, yeah, that makes a lot of sense to me. And so part of the beauty of what the DBT model is that it's a very validating treatment model. And when I think of people who struggle with food and weight, I mean, talk about being chronically invalidated. Be on a diet for your whole life thinking, you know, that'll do something to your personality if you ask me. Back to your question. What you said the cure is D. What? DBT, dialectical behavioral therapy. That's the treatment. Okay. What is that?

It's a multimodal. It's actually fascinating. It's actually probably the best researched model of all therapy that exists. And it actually treats a lot of things, right? So it helps to treat borderline personality disorder. Also helps to treat depression, eating disorders, addictions. Like it's across the board and it's incredibly well researched. What's interesting about it.

So Marshall Linnehan, the treatment founder of it. So she decided one day she woke up and she decided she wanted to cure suicide. She was a suicidologist. by the way, decreases suicide attempts by 50%. So she did a really great job. Wow. That's incredible. So anyway, so she goes and she's like, okay, she's a behaviorist.

And so she goes to all these borderlines and she's like, I'm going to do a behavioral model. And she says to all these people with BPD, okay, we're going to change. And they're like, do you not understand how much pain I'm in? Oh my God. I'm leaving the treatment. Okay. So she's like, okay, so I got to be more validating.

So she has a validation-based model. So she says all these people, God, it must be so hard for you. Gosh, these problems must be. And they're like, I need help, help me change. You know, and what Marcia saw, which is also the key to life, side note, is that it takes a synthesis of these two, right? Change and validation and change and validation, right? And I think, in fairness, like the middle path is always the way.

And so she basically made a behavioral model with a lot of Zen principles in it. And she decided that it's a big skill set deficit, which I believe wholeheartedly in food and weight disorders. I believe people actually don't know how to get well. And in diet culture, are fed all of this terrible talk about fake news where, I mean, just the amount of, like I had a woman who's like, yeah, I did the caffeine diet. And I was like, that is the saddest thing I ever heard in my life, like that you thought that was a reasonable thing to do to yourself.

Even just in general, like just some, I'm going to do Adderall. That's what I'm going to do to help myself. It's heartbreaking to me, to be honest. So to answer your question, what happens in BPD is that there's just this chronic invalidation and then a new and then a snow groove that is created in behavior that is a coping skill, right? And so it's idealization and devaluation and relationships and it's chronic anger and it's sometimes parasysticial feelings and behaviors and this chronic and it's a very chronic condition. Now in my industry, a lot of people are like, it's like a scarlet letter. I'm trained in the treatment

of it. So I just think it's a condition that we can treat, right? And one of my teachers, He had a woman who he treated with the condition, and she came back to him and said, do I still have borderline? And he said, I don't know. Let's look at the criteria. And they looked at it, you know, and she didn't have it. And so he erased it off her chart. And again, I think culturally it's like, you have this thing. And I just don't buy that.

Like, I don't buy that label, those judgments. I think they harm us significantly. I even, and I'm an addiction therapist, I even take issue with addiction if you're not using it for good. You know what I mean? Like, I'll just say, like, okay, fine, you have an unhealthy relationship of food. let's take addiction off the table. Let's heal you. Let's get you. So clarify. So like you will you, if someone's like, okay, so someone's labeling themselves an addict and they just keep calling themselves an addict and you say, hey, like, how do you, you're saying that label's not

necessarily. They're living in the narrative. It's like, right. Love it. Yes. Exactly. Someone's saying like, well, I'm an addict and I can't get well. I'm like, well, let's take that off the table. Let's use a different, let's use different languishing here. I mean, there's plenty of research that supports that. Yeah. I mean, you got to write a new story. And if your story is I'm an addict who can't get well, then, you know, we have big, you know, I'm no magician. With what you said about that woman that did the borderline personality test, it sounds like she switched the verbiage so the borderline personality person came to their own conclusion instead of they don't like being told. Yeah, I mean, but I mean, isn't that the way we are?

Yeah. Like, I just, I think it's magic when people can own their own narrative and own their own strength. And especially with food, like people, there are so much, myself included. I mean, I was, I just was a hopeless case for 25 years. I mean, I've really lost time. And it's like the idea that there's like a solution that I can live in this happy life and then help other people to do it with me is like I can't even believe it. I don't think you lost any time. I think this set you up to do what you do effectively.

Thank you. I actually believe that too. I don't regret it. You know, it's one of the problems that I have with the state of the world right now is that, you know, us as human beings, we want to be able to categorize things. We want to be like, this is that thing. this is the thing. And same with people. So we associate labels. Like that's an addict, that's a person, that's an entrepreneur, that's a creator, that's, you know, that's a Republican,

that's a Democrat. It's a huge problem because what it does is it doesn't give people the freedom to go into different directions. So like I try to be, I try to never associate labels with people I work with, people, it's myself, people in my life because it, what it does is it puts them in a limiting box where like somebody could think one way in a conservative way and they could also think in another way in a liberal way, depending on the subject. But if you put somebody in a box, then it doesn't give them the freedom or the ability to move outside of that box.

And it doesn't give you the freedom to look at someone in a different way. Well, it's completely rooted in fear. And like, fear is a full-time job, right? So when I'm saying to you about, like, why I do all these things in the morning, it's to open me out of fear. So, like, fear just is full of blind spots. So it's like, yeah, like, I'm an addict.

I'm scared. I'm going to die. It's like, I mean, probably. Right? But if we can just, in DBT, we say we're not allowed to use any judgment word. So if somebody says, well, that person's manipulative, we'll say, what do you mean by manipulative? Can you describe what you mean by that? Right.

And when you describe what you mean by manipulative, by the way, people are kind of dope. Like, many of the people are pretty amazing if you really look at the behavior. Narcissistic personality disorder. Yeah. This is the new one I just learned about, and I'm probably going to flub it. Historionic. What are the differences? between those three because the person in my life,

I'm not quite sure which- We should have an offline meeting about this. Yeah, what are the two differences between all those? Going back to psychopathology, okay, I'm going there. I mean, I think the part of, I mean, I'm, I see people so differently just because I've logged so many hours in a chair and in that chair, you know, I'm always looking for the good and people,

I mean, for better or for worse. I think this part of narcissism is this bubble that is created as a function of trauma. I mean, I could have a whole different. conversation about trauma because I think it is such an important and overlooked piece of why people are struggling so much. Probably the biggest piece, right? Yeah, definitely. And by the way, big T, little T, 16.8 point font.

So this person, part of narcissism is that it becomes a self-absorbed process, but also this, you know, pushing out process as a function of a narcissistic wound, right? So that's when the bubble is created. And this histrionic piece is a bit more of the flamboyant, you know, I guess you would call it, like, drama queen, dramatic piece, but always personality disorders are almost always a function of something happening. I mean, I think that's the piece is that, you know, our story takes a turn and then we don't remember to turn back or we can't turn back or we're not given the tools to turn back. And then that becomes something. I deal with a lot of end stage people and deal with a lot of, you know, people in their 50. I mean, I've seen people change. I believe so much in the

capacity of the human spirit to change. I mean, I guess I couldn't do my job if I didn't. Sure. But I really believe it because I see it all the time. So you could cure narcissistic personality. I mean, I have someone I'm working with right now who I, yeah, I don't think I can cure anything. I think, I don't actually would never say I could cure something, but there are moments in my life in which I have been in interactions with people where their willingness and their openness meets sort of my curiosity and knowledge and they're able to. to rewrite a script or heal in a way that they didn't know possible. It's like the right synergy.

But it goes back to the label thing where like if somebody that you're helping has been labeled that way for 40, 50 years and told that then the eventually you start to believe like that's the way. And if people say, hey, you can never get better and you can never cure, then like they believe that narrative. Well, the man that I treat that sort of has narcissistic traits, you know, his kids were like, you're a narcissist. And he said, can you believe that they said that to me?

And I said, well, you know, here's the parts of you that I see that are narcissistic. Do you want to look at them? And then we started to look at them. And then he started to understand what empathy was. And I gave him that Brne Brown video on empathy. Have you ever seen it? No, you have to send it. It's literally the best.

I need to tell you 100 stories about it too. It's so good. Okay. It like registered. And listen, he comes from so much trauma. You know, in his whole life, he's just been protecting himself, right? And just wanting to be successful and at any cost. And he was like, I didn't realize.

That's what we talked to a psychologist. And he was saying that it's hard to get that. one because they don't, they are so narcissistic. They don't see that they have narcissistic personality. It's like psychosis. It's like psychosis. Like they don't think it's a, it's like anorexia, by the way, too. Right? Anorexia is like what we call an egosynonic disease, which is like, I don't think there's a problem where like binge eating is like, help me right now. Like I need this off. Like you're like 20 pounds like I get this off me right now. So there are a lot of conditions that are very hard to treat. Those are three that are incredibly hard to treat. There's not even an ounce of it. Emitton space on anorexia. Like, it's so roll the dice. It's incredible. Before you go, you have to finish telling us what you eat in a day because Michael interrupted you and you know that I will not forget about it. You are on your bowl of oatmeal.

Yeah. That bowl of oat said this quia oatmeal because I'm really sensitive. So if I have like even quick oats, like my body reads it not so great. So this quia oatmeal is amazing. And I have like, I'm just, I had a tooth removed and I became really dairy intolerant. so I don't do dairy right now. You know, it's like not that exciting, but I have like a beautiful salad for lunch with like some, you know, maybe some feta cheese, a bunch of salad dressing and, you know, maybe some

corn in it, some protein in it. And then I'm very into a midday snack. I'm very into a four time a day eating like four to five, four to three and a half to five hours apart. I come from big time night eating, big time night binging. And what the research shows and what I found in my own life is that having this, what we call meal regulation is actually the evidence base of binge eating. It's almost like I have to myself and help people to like kind of sleep train. You know, like we don't, I didn't have good

regulation skills. So I had to re-regulate and I actually really value that as a skill. And so I usually have this is like amazing protein bars called Atlas bars. They're like I've been, I'm just constantly on the search for the perfect protein bar and they've come pretty close or I'll have like some nuts and some fruit. And then, you know, dinner, I don't know, some sushi or. some like quinoa and some fish and some or I'm very into chickpea pasta very into because I think it's like what's your favorite brand bonza period bonza okay okay bonds is amazing I've know I'd like some chickpea pasta long I've made you chickpea pasta another fucker yeah you I've never I'm open everything I've never heard him say in the whole hundred years I've known him

that he's craving anything there's no attachment bless yeah that is the opposite of me I have other problems. You do have other problems. Tell us about your book, Pimp it out. Well, you know, I wrote this book because everybody's like, what's a great book on sugar addiction? And I was like, there isn't a good book on sugar addiction. And so I wrote it. And I think the thing I love about it is it's really actionable and it's really about what I was saying, like getting people into self-determination. And so I think it is for people who are like, I might have a problem. And it's for people who are like, oh my God, across the board, I have a problem. I think it really walks people step by step. It talks a lot about DBT. It talks a lot about the skills. It's not, it's so about food when it comes to food addiction and it's so not about

food when it comes to food addiction. And the whole fourth part of the book is about like what to do when you don't want to do what you're supposed to do because every single diet book that I've read in my life never talks about that. They're like, yeah, four ounces of turkey. I'm like, obviously four ounces of turkey, like, who doesn't know that? And the only other thing I think is, listen, I'm not a nutritionist. I'm a therapist. I think the nutrition part is rather easy. I think the behavior part is really where the rubber meets the road. So smart. And the spiritual piece, too, of bringing this into a relationship. Like, and then after the food, relationship of healing yourself. Because there's a lot of self, as we're talking about, and using Adderall to

lose weight. There's a lot of harm done to self. And I think the book addresses all of that. And if not, I do. I know what it's called, but just for the audience, what is it called? Where can they find it and where can they find you on Instagram? Absolutely. It's called Breaking Up a Sugar. And it's everywhere.

It's on Amazon. It's on Barnes & Noble. It says anywhere you could buy a book. If you are into my voice, you could listen to me, read the audio book. Your voice is great. I love it. And I'm on Instagram at Molly Carmel. Easy PC.

Perfect. You're incredible. Come back on anytime. I would love to. That was so informative. and I think just the audience is going to love this. See, nothing to be nervous about. I know.

You did great. Such wasted time. Easy pizies. Such wasted time. We always think that. It's always like, fuck, I wasted all this energy. I'm really, I'm going to learn one day. If you or anyone you know is looking for a helpline for support resources or treatment options,

for eating disorders, we wanted to include a helpline at the end of this episode. The one to call is 800-931-22-37. Wait, don't go. Do you want to win a... copy of breaking up with sugar. All you have to do is head over to my latest Instagram at the Skinny Confidential and tell me who you want to see featured next on the podcast. We are taking notes. We are listening to you guys. If you want someone to come back that's already been on, let us know. If you want someone fresh and new, let us know. Just keep us updated and get so excited for our next

episode. It's a good one.