The Bossticks - Dr. Alyssa Berlin On Postpartum And Navigating Being A New Parent - A Live Couples Therapy Session

Episode Date: August 7, 2020

#286: On this episode we are joined by Dr. Alyssa Berlin PsyD. Dr. Berlin is a clinical psychologist specializing in pregnancy, postpartum and parenting and on today's episode she is helping Lauryn and Michael navigate the intricacies of postpartum as a couple. This episode covers how couples can potentially work together to understand each other more once a child enters into the mix.  To connect with Lauryn Evarts click HERE To connect with Michael Bosstick click HERE Read More on The Skinny Confidential HERE For Detailed Show Notes visit TSCPODCAST.COM To Call the Him & Her Hotline call: 1-833-SKINNYS (754-6697) This episode is brought to you by Brooklinen Brooklinen sheets are the perfect place to start making your mornings great. They offer sheets for every season using the most luxurious materials without the luxury mark up. Brooklinen is SO confident in their product that all their bedding comes with a lifetime warranty! To Get 10% off your first order and free shipping use promo code SKINNY at Brooklinen.com The episode is brought to you by Embark The Embark Dog DNA Test Kit is the most comprehensive kit on the market, looking at over350 breeds, types, and varieties and 175 genetic health conditions, to help you best care for your pup this summer, Embark has a limited time offer just for our listeners! Go to www.embarkvet.com now and use Promo code SKINNY to get $50 off your Dog Breed and Health kit.  This episode is brought to you by FOUR SIGMATIC We have been drinking this company's mushroom-infused elixirs and coffees for over a year now. When we need a break from coffee but still need that extra morning jolt and focus the Mushroom Coffee with Lion's Mane and Chaga is the way to go. Lauryn also drinks the Mushroom Matcha which is a green tea designed as a coffee alternative for those of you who want to cut back on caffeine without losing focus and cognitive boosts. This stuff doesn't actually taste like mushrooms, it's delicious. All of these blends have a ton of nutrients and amino acids to give you balanced energy without the jitters. To try FOUR SIGMATIC products go to foursigmatic.com/skinny and use promo code SKINNY for 15% off all products. Produced by Dear Media

The following podcast is a dear media production. This episode was brought to you by Four Sigma. Guys, did you know mushrooms can prevent and treat many diseases and boost overall health? They are known to be super healing. You know, I'm obsessed with their mushroom hot cacao mix. I like to wind down with this at night. It's so good and it feels so satisfying and it's full of benefits, which we love. Perfect with pregnancy too.

Anyways, Four Sigma is offering all TSC, him and her listeners, 15% off. All you have to do is go to 4Sigmatic.com slash skinny and use code skinny at checkout. She's a lifestyle blogger extraordinaire. Fantastic. And he's a serial entrepreneur. A very smart cookie. And now Lauren Everts and Michael Bostic are bringing you alone for the ride. Get ready for some major realness.

Welcome to the skinny confidential, him and her. That really sent me on my quest to learn more about the postpartum period, Because I'm like, how are we so ill prepared for this? No one talks about it. No one prepares you. No one offers you any resources. It's like, there you go. You have a baby.

Jump in. And I'm like, no, there's no way. And it really became my passion of helping women and families not feel like they have to just jump in and step in it before they get to step out of it. But how do we identify those pitfalls and then learn how to avoid them. Happy Friday. Welcome back to the skinny confidential him and her show. That clip was from our guest of the show today, Alyssa Berlin. Dr. Elisa Berlin.

She is major when it comes to postpartum. We talk every single detail in this episode. I kind of get a little email, if I'm being honest. I didn't know you were bringing her on for a full step there, like a couple's therapy session here. Yeah, there's a couple of therapy session. I feel like I was just like blindsided. I know.

It was kind of fun. I knew that it was going to be really in depth, and you guys kind of hear us get to go to therapy on air. Yeah, like we don't put enough out there. Now you've got to hear us go to therapy together. All right. I am a chronic oversharer. to have this conversation in front of a huge audience is fine with me. And I think that if this episode

can help any mothers that have just had a baby, then that's great. And for me, I think that this episode is also really, really great for someone who's thinking about having a baby. I went into having a baby with no experience, obviously, but I had no like expectations. I didn't read about it. I didn't think about it. I didn't put a lot of energy towards finding out about it. I just kind of wanted to go with it. And what happened is I had this amazing pregnancy that was so great, but I didn't realize how hard the aftermath of after having a baby was going to be. So if you're thinking about having a baby, I think that this will give you a peek into what it's like postpartum. You know who else I think this is helpful for for my seven male listeners out there? Who?

Male listeners. I think like, you know. Oh, you're going to make it about you? No, I'm saying, no, the male listeners. I think this is also helpful for men. So ladies, if you're listening to this and you're, you know, you're struggling with man like Lauren was with me, not understanding postpartum and what you're feeling. It's because we don't know. We're not equipped. We have no fucking idea what's going on with this kind of stuff. We just think, you know, our wife's going to be the exact same when they go in when they come out and the baby's there. And it's because like, you know, I don't think a lot of men partake in these conversations or aware of them. So, you know, I found it was almost like we were doing the conversation for our

relationship, but I was also like out of body experience like thinking to myself, oh, there's like a lot of men that potentially could listen to this and get a better understanding of what's going on with their wife. My favorite part is that you said was, like, how I am. That's the thing. You don't understand that I'm still going through postpartum. Like, you think it's just over and you brushed it under the rug. Well, I got to have a couple more sessions with Dr. Berlin. Yeah, you think we just had one session and like, like, all is good. Can't we just like do that and move forward? It's like, I almost stabbed you when you were sleeping last night. Anyways, yeah, so ladies, I think, uh, and for my seven male listeners, I think this is, this one could be beneficial to just get a different type of understanding and

potentially help your relationships. How dual was my personality from, when I gave birth to after birth. You've always been a dual personality with that Gemini thing you got going on. But I mean, now I think it's like, I don't know who. It's like a Medusa head. There's like seven or eight, there's seven or eight things going on. It reminds me of an eight ball.

You know, when you shake the magic eight ball and you never know what you're going to get. Yes, no, maybe so. I always think like, I don't know. What if there's a new, possibly.

A new female listener to listening to this show. And the first interaction they hear of me is like, bitching to you about postpart of her like, what's wrong with this guy? Nothing surprises me. I feel like they got, like, listen, If you're a new listener, you hear that. Go back and give me maybe eight other episode shots to get the personality.

Maybe we'll get there. But listen, maybe you turn some people off. I don't know. Okay. So I'm a magic eight ball and this episode exposes all my postpartum struggles. I've had a lot of postpartum struggles. And I did get emotional on this episode because postpartum, like I said, has been really, really hard for me. I've just felt really anxious. And it's getting better. Every day gets better. But I was just, shocked at how different I felt after having a baby. So I hope this episode helps some people out there. Dr. Alyssa Berlin is a clinical psychologist specializing in pregnancy, postpartum, and parenting. She offers private counseling for women individually with their partners as well as group therapy on issues such as anxiousness and even emotions, emotions that have to do with pregnancy, postpartum blues, and depression. She is magical in person. She is so sweet and kind and smart. She also has a work.

shop, which we talk about, called the afterbirth plan. And it's basically, like, their mission is to say you can have it all, a baby, a loving relationship, and a flourishing life. I have a baby. I have a flourishing life, but I'm a little frustrated with my significant other, which we get into. This is the skinny confidential, him and her. I am so happy to have a postpartum expert on the podcast because I feel like pregnancy was a breeze for me, besides the last three weeks, which we're kind of. Jeez. And having the baby has been surprisingly a lot easier than I thought. What has been so difficult for me is the postpartum recovery. And so I think to do a whole podcast on that to help my husband and other husbands out there, if you're a girl, you're listening, your postpartum, turn this motherfucker on in the car and turn it up. Can you sort of walk my husband through what's going on? To give some context, your husband, Dr. Berlin, who's been on this show,

helped during, I don't want to say the easy part because it was not easy, but the part that Lauren's referencing to as easier. We've had him on the show and it was great. But now you can maybe come and help her with the more difficult part. Not just help her. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Help you to understand. Lorne and I have like a very kind of like back and forth banter where we joke about a lot of things. Obviously, we know this is a serious issue. And it's been a challenging issue for both of us because, you know, I, as a man, I am first time dad. I'm not necessarily equipped or even understanding of everything that's going on. I just like, I've never been through it.

I've never been with a partner that's experiencing. And there's no way that we can, as men, like, get what's going on in the mind. And so like she's obviously struggling, which in turn I'm struggling. And so having you on is going to be amazing because we can maybe understand each other a little bit more. Well, and I love it because we're already off and running because bans are laughing, keeping it as light as we possibly can. It helps. And honestly, I think, you know, literally, like if we were to just jump right in,

one of the pitfalls that we run into is we forget to have fun. And we somehow think that there's something wrong by making light of it. But we know that humor is massive in all areas of life. So why wouldn't it be here? So let's talk about postpartum. And I really always like to start with defining the word because we live in a society where oftentimes we confuse postpartum with postpartum illnesses. And they're not the same. Postpartum is the period from birth to that first year after. And we'll talk more about kind of perinatal because that's really the term that you'll hear in the field right now in terms of conception through that first year. But postpartum, any woman who has ever had a baby is in the postpartum period. Period. Right? I guess it's a double period. Any woman who has a baby in utero is

pregnant. So there's nothing pathological about being postpartum. Postpartum is a normal natural phase of life. And if we can start to recognize that and take that in, then we also create permission for what that journey is. And like most new things in life, we don't just, we're not off and running. You don't move into a new house and a new office where it's like from the second you walk through that door, it's like, oh my gosh, it feels like I've been here forever. It takes time, right? And so why would we think that parenting would be any different? Where this baby is born and all of a sudden magically, it's like, great, I know exactly what to do and I feel like I've been doing this forever and this is such a piece of cake. Oh my gosh, right?

It is sometimes a brain fuck of like what just happens here. And so when we can reclaim postpartum as its own entity, we can also then embrace it's a journey. It's going to take time. But that's okay. And just to be clear, how long does postpartum go on for? Through that first year of a baby's life. So you guys are squarely in the postpartum period. You're right in the middle.

Perfect timing. So what are some things that Michael can do to help me? Before that, like, I want to understand. No bias. I want to understand why it occurs. And I mean, that's such a fully loaded question I know. And you can, we could probably talk like this whole podcast could just be about that. But chemically, biologically, like, why, like, why does this happen?

So why does what happen? Why does postpartum as a time period happens because you had a baby, right? We can get into postpartum illnesses or struggles. And then we would want to break it up first into baby blues. which is the first two to three days for the first two to three weeks and then, you know, kind of illnesses. But if we talk about normal postpartum, anything that's brand new is going to have a learning curve and it's going to take time to figure it out. That on top of the fact that no one's sleeping very well. So we're tired, we're irritable. Hormones for both men and women are changing.

And it used to be thought that only women have, you know, hormonal change. We now know no one comes out of that birthing room unscathed by oxytocin. And we know that men can have a postpartum illness also. I would imagine your lives felt very full and very busy and very complete even before that sweet little girl joined the family. So now how do we create space for this new needy entity who is very demanding and has needs 24-7? And how do we add that into this already busy life? Who's doing the second shift? So after you both work a whole day, who comes home and then does, you know, that five to nine or that nine to, you know, morning chef. How do we navigate these things? You know, when communication is on the decline and sleep isn't happening, well, that's when we really start to get into it. We're

tired, we're irritable. It's easy to get at each other. Also, the weight gain, you're not exactly ready to, like, getting doggy style. You know what I mean? Like, there's milk coming out of your nipples. Like, it's just like a lot going on. And it's funny because one of the first things that my sister said to me when I had my first one of like, oh, oh, you think your boobs are yours now. No, no, no, they belong to the baby now, right? So like, let go of that. But it is. It's all of these things. And one of the things you'll hear a women say more than anything is that they just don't feel like themselves. That's exactly how I felt. When she described that she felt like she was in a fog. When we were self-contained out of it was like, oh, that's been so much time with the baby and we're hanging out of it. Like my experience is like, oh, this is great thing. We're at home together. It was like, it wasn't her experience. And after talking to her a little bit more, it's because she says she was just in a fog and barely like kind of remembers that period right when the baby was born. I don't, I don't remember. And I I was so forgetful. And like, even now when I'm caring for the baby, I notice that I'm more present now. The first five months of her life, I feel like I was completely like not all there.

So it sounds like there was something going on for you. Yeah. Two to three days for the first two to three weeks, that's the period of baby blues. Completely normal. 80 to 85% of the population experiences it. I'm a big believer that anything that 80 plus percent of people experience, totally normal. Usually what it means or what it looks like is women who are crying for no reason, irritable, little things get a really big rise out of them, and that feeling of I'm just not quite myself. Once we cross that two to three week mark, now we're getting into the realm of P-MADs or perineadle mood and anxiety disorders.

And a common symptom is very much that. I'm going through the motions. I feel like I'm in a fog. I don't feel connected to what I'm doing. Memory lapses or lapses in concentration are very common. feeling sad, feeling hopeless, things that used to be enjoyable are no longer enjoyable anymore. So I used to love to paint and now, ugh, I could care less. Or like even scary thoughts like of like things that I like never would have thought before like picture frames falling on her and like weird images

like that. Right. So I want you to know everyone has intrusive thoughts in their lives. Every one of us has sat on a plane at one point and said, gosh, what would happen if that hatch just opened? And then it's like, ooh, that was weird. And we kind of quietly go back to reading our book and pretend like nothing ever happens. And for the most part, we can let go of that thought. One of the things that we'll see in the postpartum period is postpartum obsessive compulsive disorder. It's the thing that I'm seeing most often in my practice right now. And what happens is those intrusive thoughts come in. And oftentimes, right, they're more geared around baby safety. And then they get stuck. And I can't quite shake it the way I would shake it with something else. And it creates more of that intensity. And usually what

happens is we'll then do things, right? The compulsion or the behavioral piece comes in. of what can I do to prevent that ever from coming to fruition? So if I'm worried about something falling on her like a picture frame, well, I don't walk that close to the walls and then I don't have to worry about it. Other very common intrusive thoughts that we see in the postpartum period is a concern of dropping the baby. Oh my gosh, what if I'm at the grove and I look over the parking deck and baby falls? Wow, that was really scary, right?

So I never carried the baby up, you know, to a place of heights. And the other very common one that we hear is a fear of cutting baby with a knife. What if I'm in the kitchen and I'm making a salad and the knife slips by accident? I've had that thought too. Yeah. Well, even in the beginning, like I would give the baby most of the baths in the beginning and she was scared to hold the baby. No, I was scared of, I was really, and I don't know if you've heard this one. I was really, really scared of the open fontanelle.

Sure. Like that freaked me out. Right. I just felt like something was going to drop on a fontenelle area. It's just, there's something triggering about that for me. It's her brain. So that's probably what it is. But mixed with the anxiety of the postpartum, it was.

was just a reoccurring thought. Quick break so I can tell you about my new favorite way to wind down. Well, it's not that new, but it's definitely something that I keep going back to. So my friend Mona and Claire, who are both influencers, told me that one of their favorite ways to curb their sweet tooth is to take a packet of four-sigmatic cacao. So they do the spicy one. They put it in a mug of almond milk or coconut milk or even water at night. They warm it up.

They put a little lemon on it and they wind down with that. And it's just a way to curb your sweet tooth. Personally, for me, I like something sweet at night. I do this all the time and I just wanted to share that hot tip with you guys because for me, I'm trying to tighten up after a baby. So this is a really helpful way to use it. Michael, however, has another way that he likes to use four-sigmatic, which is kind of fun. Well, I kicked coffee completely this year because Lauren told me that it's not so good

with my blood type. So I'm doing a little bit of an experiment. And we've been talking about four-sigmatic for a long time. Their most popular products, obviously, they're mushroom coffee. If you're hearing this the first time, you're like, what the hell is mushroom coffee? No, it does not taste like mushrooms. But you get all the benefits of mushroom. You know, you don't get those caffeine jitters.

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Cheers. And anxiety, I think about anxiety like this fuel tank. It's like this live wire inside, just adding energy to any of those thoughts or feelings, making them that much bigger and that much scarier. There's a wonderful, wonderful resource. Karen Kleiman, who's huge in the field of maternal mental health, came out with a book, and it's called Good Moms Have Scary Thoughts. And so as you say that even, right, because so often it's like, oh my gosh, what's wrong with me?

Who thinks that about their baby? And it's like, no, no, no. That has nothing to do with the quality of the parents or the mom that you are. And so for people to be able to hear that, right, that that's understandable. It's a common way that people struggle. You know, postpartum OCD is one of the most up-and-coming that I'm seeing in my practice. But to know that you're not stuck and you don't have to deal with that by yourself, that it does respond to treatment. I think like one thing that's interesting to talk through here is, you know, Lauren had a, I'll just say, because I don't know the proper word, but say a relatively easy pregnancy, meaning it was pretty seamless, not too many complications. And then she went full term and had the baby, which was great. And, you know, I think she got very confident. And then she's like, okay, I'm confident. Everything's going well. But then after I feel like the postpartum hit her like a ton of bricks, because that has been a bigger struggle. And I think it's important to talk about on this show because what seemed like it was an easy journey now has been like her now.

navigating, you know, a difficult time in her life trying to figure this thing out. And it's the one of the rare times in our relationship where, you know, we always help each other. She helps me. I help her. And we're like, we're like, we're not reading the same book. Yeah. And it's been it's been an instance where I don't know how to really help here. And I don't really know what she's experienced. And again, we've joked about it on the show. But it's also like something that I know she's been struggling with. And so I think it's just important to talk through. We went from, hey, do you have any postpartum? What do you call it? Right. So baby blues and then moving into PMAs. Yeah. So like I think like, like, we're,

which you identified is I think she probably did have P-Mads, but we just, we were unaware of it for a very long time and didn't know what was going on. I also think adding to the anxiety, I lost my mom. So there's like this dynamic of having a baby girl. Oh, yeah. At firstborn baby girl, there was that dynamic. And then also I have mental health issues in my family. So it was like all of that in one. It was like the perfect storm. Oh my gosh. Yes. Lauren, I'm so sorry, first of all. When did you lose your mom? How long ago? When I was 18. Wow. So yes. So I want you to know that for a lot of, you know, men and women, when we have babies, it calls into question old experiences, old traumas, and old moments. So I'll talk a lot about that postpartum period as it shines a spotlight on any old unresolved

stuff or little like bumps and bruises within the relationship. And now it brings them center stage. And it's like this giant matzabal that you just can't sidestep anymore. Trauma, right? There's nothing like having a baby to bring up trauma related to our own families and our parents. And it's something that we don't talk a lot about. and especially when we have a child of the same gender, right? As hard as I try, I'll never know what it's like to be a son.

So I can't really compare it to that relationship. But I can compare it to potentially that mother-daughter relationship, but now I'm on the other side, or all of those expectations I had of what it would look like to have a baby and the role my mom was going to play and now not having that resource anymore. How are you doing over there? No, okay.

No, I think, yeah, and I think that like she starts to think about a lot of moments that maybe like her mom didn't get. to have with her, you know? Obviously, that upsets you. It's a lot. And there's nothing like having a baby or birth to bring up trauma. In recent years, I did a whole lot more training and trauma, knowing that birth can be a catalyst in that way. And, you know, the thing that we want listeners to know that I want you to know is that you're not stuck having to deal with that or carry that forever and that there absolutely are different things that we can do to address it and to desensitize the energy behind it. So what are some treatments that you do?

for people that are experiencing such about anxiety like I have. And so let's talk about, you know, both anxiety and trauma. A combination of therapy and when severe enough medication is really helpful. And it's important. And I want everyone who's listening to know that, you know, P-MADs are treatable. It's probably what makes it one of the most devastating experiences is because they can be treated. And people don't always know that. Probably about 50% of people don't access that treatment.

And many walk away thinking like, well, I guess this is just what motherhood is. and they deal with it on their own, or it's not until they have a second child that they realize it's not what it's supposed to be and they get that help. In terms of therapy modalities, somatic experiencing and EMDR or eye movement desensitization reprocessing are two really wonderful modalities to treat trauma. People keep saying that about, is that the tapping? So EMDR works with what we call bilateral stimulation, BLS, which is anything from side to side on the body. So tapping can be one form of that. Oftentimes, In session, we do eye movements, so eye tracking.

So you follow either someone's hand or you follow a light bar. It could also be auditory, so hearing tones or combining them. What's powerful about EMDR or SE, which is Peter Levine's approach, is that it's what we call a bottom-up approach. So instead of it all being about my thoughts and insight, we actually go into the body and into that adaptive part of the brain and we let it digest this thing that has been undigested all these years. our cognitive brain can't access it because when something is a trauma and I think about trauma as any unmet need or want that still lives within our system traumas develop this like hard external shell and they kind of get lodged in time and trauma time and our thinking brain can't access it. So when we come at it from a bottom up or a body oriented perspective, all of a sudden

now we can drain it. So EMDR, it's desensitization. We want to like take the charge off of it, reprocess it. So it's not this thing stuck in trauma time, but actually allow it to find its rightful place in long-term memory where we never forget. But it can now be like, oh yeah, that happened and it was sad versus bringing us back into that moment where we're reliving all of that

emotion as if it was happening right now. I think I need to do that therapy. Let's do it. Seriously. Yeah, I think I need to do that. Well, you know, I think like this has been a rare instance where, you know, we had Gabby Bernstein on the show previously and she was talking about She had some issues with postpartum as well. And she was saying like one of the biggest things is you got to, when you identify that there's maybe an issue is like go and talks to me. I think there's so many women listening and men to some degree that something happens and they don't realize they don't get help.

They just like, oh, well, like you said, this is just my new norm and how I am. And I think it sounds, you know, it's scary sometimes to think like, oh, I got to go talk to somebody and fix something. But for something like this, that's obviously, you know, it has long-term effects. Like people need to know that there's solutions for it if they're willing to take those solutions. tremendously. And, you know, anytime I work with someone, I always want people to know, we're going to go slow. I'm going to hold your hand every step along the way. We're never going to go faster than what feels comfortable. And the way the body is hardwired. If I were to take a step back for a second, we are a society that avoids discomfort. So much so that it's like, oh, I think I might be getting a headache on Tuesday. So I'll take Tylenol today just to avoid that. And very much when we feel something uncomfortable, we tend to want to run away from it. And the reality is, you know, a couple of different things. But the reality is, is the way our body is hardwired, if you give it the time and attention, it actually will dissipate. I'm yet to go to the ocean and see the wave that kind of comes up and starts to build and then just stays there. Every single wave eventually comes back down.

And every body's sensation, if you give it the time and space, will also come down and be released. So for people to know they're not stuck. It's not that we're going to open up this box and it's going to pull you in and that's it. You're just going to be pulled under. No. And I tell everyone we can always pull you back out. And it's one of the precursors, you know, before we go into the reprocessing part, do you have the skills that you need to be able to ground yourself, to be able to stabilize yourself? I always tell people at any point that it feels too big, just let me know, raise their hand or just be like, oh, I need a sec.

And we'll pull back out. It's slow. And it doesn't have to be that scary experience if you feel safe and you're in an environment, right, that you trust. And that's an important precursor of any therapy that you're going to do. I also think, too, what's overwhelming for me is that I do. you probably want to have another baby and then maybe another one. So maybe three. And what's so overwhelming about the whole process is that you gain all this weight. Hopefully, like for me, I'm going to lose it. And then you have to do it again and again and also experience like maybe possibly

more postpartum anxiety. So it's almost like I could see the end of the tunnel if I just wanted to have one kid, but I know I want to do it two more times. So that makes me anxious. But here's what I want you to know, you come into baby number two as an expert in a way that you can't do with most other things in life. And, you know, I'm a big proponent of prevention. And what's so hard is that we live in a society that doesn't value prevention. But there's a lot we can do during pregnancy, right, to prepare. So one of the first things would be like, hey, you know, Michael, you talked about like, oh my gosh, like we didn't even see this coming. Or Lauren was so excited and pregnancy was going great. And then bam, postpartum hit and no one was ready for that.

accurate expectations changes our experience of something going in. And most often you'll hear people say, if I know what I'm up against, I can handle it. It's when I get caught off guard or when I get kind of like blindsided, that it becomes this like, holy shit, like now what? And now I'm stuck in, what do I do? And so what we would want to do? And, you know, I'm already inviting myself to be a part of your team, that before or during pregnancy, it's helping to prepare. What does that look like? What's coming up for you?

You know, what's interesting that a lot of people don't realize is that perinatal mood and anxiety disorders are called perinatal because it can start any point from conception through that first year postpartum. And so for a lot of women, it's in their third trimester in particular that they may start to notice things. Maybe that anxiety is already starting to creep up. Maybe there's a little bit of sadness. You know, what else is happening? And we want to jump on that. We don't want to wait for it to hit to then say, oh gosh, we need a plan. That's not our best course of action.

And so what we know already going in is that there's this risk factor or there's a couple of risk factors. And so we'd be mindful of it. And we're going to put a plan in place from the get-go to really help navigate that experience. How can Michael be a better partner to me during this? Because I do think, no offense that. No, I have not getting, I'm not getting an A-plus rating here. You're not getting an A-plus. I'll be the first to admit it.

Honestly, I'm going to be real. I'd probably give you a C. Well, I think. Because you know why? I'd give you a C. I'll tell you why. I know what you're capable of and how you are a high functioning, high performer in so many areas of your life. And I don't feel like you've been a high performer in this area. Well, I think like, okay, two things. One, I agree. Maybe I'll take the C rating. That's fine. I'm not going to argue with the. I'm not going to argue with the, I'll maybe give you a D on a bad day. I was going to say, was that a kind C? No, I don't want to say that I've been copying out. But in this particular instance, I've been saying I actually 100% don't have the answers in that I've thought that it's important for her to go and speak to someone. I don't want to. I think to some. I've, like yourself who maybe doesn't have all the answers, but has a lot of answers, has a talk to

the, to many women, has, you know, experienced this, knows the science and the studies behind all of this stuff and can actually speak to it intelligently. Because for me, this is one area where I'm completely in the dark and out of my depths. And I'm just like, I don't know how to help. And so that can manifest itself in a way where like we both get frustrated with each other. I get frustrated. I don't know what to do. And like my solutions go talk to somebody. And that should, you know, the way that's received. That triggers me because it's like, to me, what I hear is like, you're broken. It's your problem. It's your problem. Yeah, I hear like you go figure it out on your own and it makes me feel like I'm like... We're going to go through a couple therapy session here. Here we go. But no, it's not that I'm saying it's your problem. It's that I'm fully acknowledging that I don't have the tools. And I'm happy to go and meet and talk with anybody. But I just, I don't know where to begin with something like this. And I also can't relate and I don't know the feeling. And I'm just like, I'm kind of walking around blindly in the dark here. And so when I say go talk to someone, it's because I'm looking to have a conversation with someone that actually knows what they're. doing when it comes to this stuff. You may have seen my new linen sheets. They are the best

summers moment. I can't even tell you. So what I like to do when summer rolls around is I like to switch my sheets out. So normally I have cotton white sheets and when the summer comes I switch them out for linen. You know that I'm a big fan of brook linen. I've been talking about it on the blog for the last two years. Michael is such a fan of brook linen that he was yelling at me when I switched out the cotton sheets because he didn't want them to go. And then he realized that the linen sheets were also by Brooklinen and he fell in love. Now he can't get enough of the linen sheets. He's even telling his mother about them. The dogs love them. The babies love them. Like I'm telling you it's the best way to start your day in bed in linen sheets in the summer. What I'm obsessed with

about Brooklyn is that they're really high quality sheets, but they don't break the bank. So you get this like bread and breakfast feel at your house, but it's not going to kill your bank account. Brooklyn was the first direct-to-consumer DTC betting company. They work directly with manufacturers and directly with the customers. There's no middleman. It's just a great product and a great service. Like I said, it's luxury products without the luxury markup. They have all kinds of different sheets, colors, patterns, and materials. I personally like a white, airy vibe for my bed, but you do you because there's so many different options on the site. They have bundle sheets, big bedding, they have pillowcases, they have it all. Brooklinen sheets are the perfect place to start making your mornings

great. Brooklinen is so confident in their product that all their betting comes with a lifetime warranty. Get 10% off your first order and free shipping when you use promo code skinny at brooklinen.com. Brooklinen, everything you need to live your most comfortable life. All right, let's get back to the show. Right. Really what I'm hearing you say is, gosh, I wish I could help. I don't know how, but I want to help connect you with someone. And like you said, what we hear is, oh, so this is all on me. And there's a lot of frustration with that, right? Sure. On both sides. Yes. Well, and so here, right, so here's our couples therapy one-on-one. P-Mads, postpartum issues, it's a family issue. And it's something that we want to address as a family because it impacts the family as a whole. And although we're ebbing in the C to D range, I'm going to say the jury's still out. So we're there for now, but we're only halfway through the semester. through the year. I can still raise my grades a little bit. So absolutely, right? So that GPA is to be determined. A lot of fucking work to do. We were talking to outside of the studio. Every teacher told me, Michael, there's still time. There's potential. And I never really happen for me. So I'm hoping I do better here than I did as a student. Well, and that's funny, right? Because we were talking about

schooling and education. So we're going to reclaim a whole lot in this space. So what can we do? Right? How do we do this? Well, first and foremost, when I think about relationships, I think about walking up a down escalator. So think about it. You put in a little bit of energy. You can make some headway, you put in more energy, you can make more headway, maybe even make it to the top. The problem is that the second that you stop climbing, that escalator is going to just naturally bring you down. Relationships, put in a little bit of effort, you'll make some headway, you'll have some closeness and connection, put in more energy, more connection and closeness. The second we stop actively investing in that relationship, life just brings us down and farther apart, right?

Guess what? Having a baby speeds up that escalator. And so what happens in that postpartum period it is really we need to double our efforts to connect with each other and to prioritize each other. But we don't. We end up saying like, okay, you'll be fine. We have to take care of baby, right? Like, here's this little person who needs all of us right now. And so, you know, she'll become the focus. And like, you know, I don't know, three to six months from now when we're feeling better, we'll pick us back up and we'll see where we are. You know, it's totally fine. And the problem with that is that no one ever goes into having a baby wanting to replace one relationship with the other. It's not like, you know what, Michael, we've had a good run. this is fine. We've had however many years together. Like, now I'm going to focus here. We always think about

having a baby to add to our family and add to that closeness. So one of the things that we want to do and understand in relationships are what are those behaviors that pull us apart? What pulls us down that escalator that makes it harder to stay connected? What are the things that we need to do that help pull us up that escalator and help us to stay connected? And recognizing that the most important relationship is the one between the two of you. So lots of different experts in the field will tell you that, and the way that I put it, is your ability to parent really comes from your capacity to partner. So when we prioritize this relationship and we keep the hierarchy of the family intact, where it's partners on that first tier and then baby can come a very, very, very close second,

right? But she shouldn't be on that same tier with you guys and definitely not between the two of you, which oftentimes we do very mindlessly, right? We become very baby-centric. or we fall into that baby vortex. And we don't mean to. And it's not uncommon for both men and women or for both partners to be like, hey, what happened to me here? I need you.

I miss you. And we feel very much like that second-class citizen. So what can we do? A bunch of different things. One is we want to recognize. And, you know, Lauren, you were the one who asked the question, so we'll focus on kind of our mamas here for a minute. We want to recognize that women are verbal processors.

And, you know, for women, it's really cathartic to be able to talk about their experience. And so I'll tell a lot of men, guess what? your job is to listen to your partner share her birth story. Like you've never heard it before. I'm in trouble. I'm in trouble. It's not too late. We still have another semester ahead of us. His number one issue that I have with him is listening. No, when it comes to this stuff. Oh, no. Just take it. No, I take it. But my, the number one issue is that, and this is something that I have to work through personally is that I just always want to be helpful and solve it. I'm realizing here that I actually can't solve it by jumping in it. Like I have to just problem solution. Let's eat. Yes.

Right? Life's good. And so what I want you to know, listening is an action. It's an active experience when we listen. And sometimes it's helpful, you know, when your partner comes at you and says, hey, I just want events. You know, like, that's what I'm asking of you. You know, I'll talk to couples all the time and I'll be like, hey, you know what? 10 minutes a day. I want you each to talk. And guess what? It's a no solution zone. So you're not allowed to offer any solution. You're not. He can do it. I believe in him. I don't think he can do it. No, listen. We can start with seven minutes. It's helpful for me. Taylor, Taylor, do you think he can do it? It's helpful for me to hear. It's helpful for me to hear because when I hear it from your perspective and I actually recognize it as like a tool and a tactic, I'm not saying that I don't recognize that listening is good. It's different. But it's, I am somebody that needs the toolbox.

And once somebody tells me like, okay, this is the toolbox, then I can start thinking about it and processing and saying, okay, this is actually helpful. Then I can start doing these. But I just want to be careful that I understand the actual toolbox before I start doing things. Does that make sense? Absolutely. Right. And again, you can go into the kitchen and could be well stocked with all these amazing tools. But if we don't know how to use it or which one to use in a situation, not so effective. Yes. As hard as you try to cut a salad with a peeler, not going to look so good. Yeah. And I think, honestly, like, the issue here is that we've both been disconnected in the sense that, like, she wants

certain things, I want certain things. And there's no way to know what's the right things and what's the wrong things. And we're not like actually coming together and figuring out like, this is helpful for everybody. But why does it have to be a this or? Why can't it be a this and? It can be. But I think that where there's a disconnect is both of us are just kind of throwing things at the wall and nobody knows what to pick up and run with. Sure. Yeah. And I also think that just on a micro level, and you can tell me if you agree with this, having like a schedule of the day of like, you know, I'm going to do this at this time and the baby's going to go here at this time. And I think, I think with quarantine, it's gotten a little murky. Yeah. Like my one non-negotiable is I have to

work out. It's not even like for just my body, which obviously is like, a big deal right now to me because, you know, I'm 25 pounds overweight for me. But it's also like a mind thing, like to be able to walk outside and get vitamin D and move my body and like, it's just like, it's, it gets me into a better place. That's a non-negotiable for me. And that's been hard because he's at home, obviously, but quarantine's like another layer. It's a wacky time, obviously, because this is unprecedented in the sense that we're not operating under normal. But let's pull back for a second. Michael, what's your, what's your non? Well, mine on negotiable is a bit different. Like I told Lauren that listen, we're in a fortunate position in the beginning.

We were able to hire a night nurse to help us in the beginning, which helped us because we both work, right? And we're both doing different things. And so we needed help. And then now, again, like, I'm running this company. She's running her company. And we have full-time things going on plus the show, plus everything else. And so a non-negotiable to me is like, I want to spend as much time with the baby and Lauren as possible. But if she wants to go to the gym, that's fine. And if I need to be working and being in meetings, that's also fine. But at that point, we need to bring in some help to help us. And, you know, right now it's not family. members because all of our families. So let's go down a little. So your non-negotiable is time with family and time to work. And I'm saying that Lauren should be able to do whatever she wants and I should be able to do it. But during those

times, if both of us have obligations, then we should bring in some like a nanny or somebody to help us. And a lot of the times, and listen, we're in a position to be able to do that. What I don't like is that if I'm fine, I wants to go to the gym, but I don't want to be left holding, you know, all the responsibility if I have other obligations. I don't think I don't think my, what I'm doing is more important than what she's doing. I don't think what she's doing is more important. I think it's equal. We just got to find a way to work together to figure out like what makes the most sense when we're both super busy. Because in normal circumstances, like if we weren't in COVID and we weren't in lockdown, my day nine to six, I'd be out of the house anyway. So I think we're in a unique period here where I'm at home,

but I'm still working and managing a very large team with all these shows. And so it's, we're getting into a weird place. Which is one of the hardest balances, right? Because, you know, from the guy's perspective, it's like, well, I'm still working nine to six. Why does it matter where I'm working. And from many wives' perspective, it's like, but you're not at the office from nine to six. So you are technically more accessible or I would want you to be more accessible. I want us to avoid the word should. Should is a very judgmental term that kind of comes with that wagging finger, right? You could picture your parents kind of like, you should have remembered to do X, Y, and Z, right? It's a judgmental word that comes with the assumption that somehow someone is

doing something wrong. So let's put that aside for a second. Lauren, for you, it's exercise. Michael, for you, it's family time and work time. If I were to ask you what the non-negotiable for the couple would be, what does that look like? One thing that's non-negotiable is tell me if I'm wrong. Like, we need to have time just Lauren and I. Like we love the baby and worth all the time, but you know, we're making a point to still spend a lot of time or like dinner, take trips. Yeah, I think sex, date nights. My one non-negotiable probably is having time to talk with each other without bringing business into it, too. Sometimes our conversation is like heavily business. Right, which you and I can talk about on and aside, right? Because when you work with your partner, it's really hard to create those lines

because it very easily just goes right into business. And how do we have an identity aside from what we do together professionally? And it's hard. So, you know, and those are a lot of the same principles that I like to talk about when it comes to the couple first and foremost, right, in terms of daily time together to talk. No solutions. We'll talk about that. Making sure that we have sex. And sex is a huge part of the relationship, right? Nothing creates that level of electricity and connection in a relationship more than sex. And sometimes in that postpartum period, it could be hard. And yes, I am a proponent of scheduling it, and we could talk more about that, right? Sometimes it's a necessity when the schedule is so arbitrary and up in the air. I don't love date night after we have babies.

I do like date moments. And to me, the difference is not having to do it at nighttime and not having to compete against sleep. Because most things that compete against sleep, they're doomed to fail. And we'll all have the best of intentions, right? It's like, oh, I can't wait. And then eight o'clock rolls around. And you know, the baby's going to bed and it's like, we could go out or we can sleep. And more times than not, sleep is going to win out, both over dating and over sex. So if we can find other times of day to have those things happen, we tend to be more successful. But already, you know, as we talk about the idea of a schedule, well, now we're starting to get what are the components that we want to figure out time for. And there's no reason that there can't be time for all of them.

Time to exercise, family time, work time, couple time. And it's almost like if you were to look at a daily schedule, those are the four things that we want to make sure is represented at each time. So I haven't really talked about this publicly yet, but our dog, Pixie, has not been feeling good at all. She is just not wanting to eat. She's feeling lethargic and she's 16 years old. So Michael and I want to do everything that we can do to support her. So we've done things like acupuncture. We're giving her an appetite stimulant right now. And we also went and worked with a company called Embark. Now, this company is really cool because it tests her DNA. So we can really support her by showing her vet what her background is. We can support her going forward. We can use her results so we can find

out her background. Right now, it's just so much anxiety we're living in uncertain times. And to know that I have full control over finding out what Pixie is and what her DNA is has been very, very, very helpful. I mean, we're working with specialty vets at this point. We're working with holistic doctor, holistic vets at this point, everything. And what's really helpful is we have all this information in Bark to show both of these doctors to see what medicine's going to work the best, what diet's going to work the best, what supplements, how to get her back on her feet.

If something happens to this dog, I'm literally, I don't know, I'm going to lose. I could think of about 200 people that I would rather get rid of than this dog. You're crying right now. I know. I'm going to lose it. Okay, so Embark can identify over 350 breeds types and varieties and screen for over 150 genetic health conditions to help your vet provide the best medical care for your dog. You can even learn your dog's ancestry back to their great grandparents and match your dog's relatives. Honestly, like that sounds like my favorite version of a Friday night, add some rosé and I'm good.

Every single dog that gets tested helps to contribute to their research into discovering and treating new genetic diseases to extend the lives of all dogs. Sign me up. This summer, Embark has a limited offer just for the Skinny Confidential, him and her listeners. Go to EmbarkVet.com and use promo code Skinny to get $50 off your dog breed and health kit. So visit EmbarkVet.com and use promo code skinny to get $50 off today. EmbarkVet.com and use promo code skinny. I know you guys will absolutely love this. Completely agree with you, but where we could do a better job is, like for example, this morning she went and worked up, but I didn't know she was doing that. And I had my things planned as well.

And so then what happens is one parent, and it could be, I do it to her. Sometimes she does me, we just get left. And you don't realize like, oh, I'm actually on babysitting duty. And I feel like if we coordinated our schedules better and talked about it, then it wouldn't be an issue. But it's like, Lauren, the way that I'm more of a planner and like really, really strict schedule and have a team that helps me do that. And she's more like, oh, I'm going to kind of go with the flow. But it's not necessarily working as much anymore when you take into account that there's a child there because there's this person here that needs to be looked after. after 24-7 by somebody.

Oh, yes. And it's funny, before we had the child, Lauren and I, we spent so much time together and we work together. But, you know, in the middle of the day, like, she would go do her thing. I go do my thing. We actually didn't even know what each other were doing because it was fine. Like, there's nothing in the middle. Now we have to coordinate our schedules a little bit more because there's a child in the mix.

And I think that's not happening. And that's right. And that's a big adjustment. And if I were to ask you, right, you mentioned that you have a staff of like 20 or 30. How often do you have staff meetings? How often do you guys get together as a team and talk about the projects that? are up ahead and what we need to coordinate and who's taking what piece. It's a good point. To a degree, I mean, and Taylor's back there. I mean, we're meeting

either like at least once a week with the whole team and then multiple meetings with departments and talent and show. So there's, we're constantly in touch coordinating and talking through all this stuff. And I think, I think where you're going with this is that's probably not being done in the relationship as much, right? And why can't we? Why can't we have these family meetings, right? What's on deck for you today? What's on deck for you for the week? Where do we need coverage? Where do we need to kind of like, you know, fit in the pieces of the puzzle? That's a good idea. like a weekly conversation about that. We're just, we're out of step with each other because we're like, and I think both partners,

I'll talk about us, but I think other relationships too is if one partner feels like their time and their space is not being prioritized, like, or like, for example, I'll just use me. If Lauren says, well, I got to go work out because it's non-negotiable for me. I'm like, that's great for you, but I just got left and there's no thought until like, what's a non-negotiable for me. And so then I'm just like left with the baby and I spend as much time as I can. For sure. But it's like, I'm going to take off for two hours.

and do my non-negotiable. And then I'm there being like, okay, well, what about me? There was no thought about like what I had going on. Well, and that's why one of the first things that we did here, right, was like, okay, wait a second. What's, you know, her non-negotiable? What's yours? What's the couples? Because all of them matter. And also, if we were to talk about like what your experience was postpartum, it was like, whoa, I didn't see this coming. So yes, anytime something is thrown on us in the spur of the moment and we don't have a chance to regroup, it feels like we're being hit from behind. Oh, wow. She just kind of explained postpartum how you feel when I leave you. Yeah, well, and I also think, like, I would preface this with, I try to do as much as I can as a husband to help. And if there's any, I'm not, there's not one thing that I'm more grateful for in my life than the gift Lauren gave me with our child. Like, she did all the hard work. She carried the child. So, like, she needs to know that. But I do. But you, that's not, I mean, that's, you don't. You don't tell me that. Well, I just told you it, you know. Oh, no, I do. Well, and it's funny because the first thought that I had was, first of all, like, we need to hear that more often. And did that change his grade a little?

bed because to be able to hear that. Maybe I'm at a C plus. Yes. C plus is. Oh, so you're already making progress, Michael. So I think those teachers, we're going to show them yet. But I do feel like as a father, I do as much as I can. Yeah, this is, this is where I do want to say like something positive. Yes. You're into C plus area. People are, you know, interviewing me for like blog interviews and stuff. And they're saying, you know, like, how's having a baby and implementing that? And I keep saying, like, the partner, I feel, I feel like I didn't. when it came to a partner. And he's like, as a father, he's done more than I could. Sometimes it's actually too much. I'm like, okay, give me the baby. Like, he's greedy. Well, I try to be helpful.

If the baby gets up at night, like, I'm the one that gets up because she's, she's a, she gets up. He gets up all the time with the baby. I mean, she's like a new mom. Yeah, I sleep. The world could be burning down around her and she would just sleep through it. So he does get up with the baby all the time. He will change diapers. He will, you know, put her to bed, like get her, like all the time. anytime he has one free second, he's about the baby, which is amazing. But, well, before we go to the butt, but that's what makes a great team that we help each other. Yes. Right? I just wish you put a little bit of that energy into you. Into me. We can, we can, I can do that. But what I would say here is that don't, don't skip over that so fast because that's where your grade is going to change dramatically

and go up through the roof. I just went to a C again. No, no, no. I'm saying like this is where you're earning extra credit and you're going to hit that A by stopping and remembering that she came first. Yes. No, and I try to remember. No, but. Michael, come back to me. Okay, I'm coming back. I think that where we're struggling right now, I feel like we're doing pretty good to co-parenting here, but it's what we talked about before where Lauren and I are both very type A and we both like, okay, we're going to have this baby and like nothing's going to change and we're going to keep doing the same thing and we're going to keep running these businesses and doing the show and not really skipping a beat. And if you think about it, outwardly, like we haven't. Like, we've never missed an episode.

Even while she was pregnant or, like, still going live, like the show's still going, the business still going, like closing funding, like all sorts of stuff going on while this is happening. But I think we've gotten to a point now where it's like, okay, you can't actually just operate the same way you used to before the kid. You now have to accommodate and get together as a team and figure out what are we doing now and what adjustments and compromises do we need to make to make to make sure that we're still doing what we want to do and hitting those non-negotiables, but also accounting for having a child in the mix. Well, and that's it. We don't want to lose ourselves as we're developing this new identity together, right? We're taking on an additional role. And let's talk about what that team

means and what that looks like and how do we get there. And there's two things I want us to think about. One is teams don't keep score. And that's really an important thing for people to recognize. Because if you're in this place where you're like, yeah, we're a great team and I do X and he does why and I won't change another diaper until he catches up. We're awesome. No, no, no, you've missed the boat there, right? You'd never see kind of out in a bowl. ball field, right? And, you know, I don't know, in the outfield, balls are, you know, people are playing, and, you know, the ball's coming to that outfield. And a guy goes and he grabs it and he catches it and everyone's so excited and the crowd goes wild and it's amazing. And then that very next play,

the ball's coming at that same guy. But this time, instead of going after it the way he did the first time, his mid is by his side. He's like, well, what do you mean? I got the last one. Like, this one was on you. It doesn't work, right? Does anyone think he's going to get away from that locker room without a giant wedge. It makes me think about, you know, we have a friend and I won't say who they have a child together. And we all were together. And they were talking about, okay, well, like, at this time, this person's responsible and this. And like, they get in fights about, hey, you, like, what you're talking about. Like, you drop the ball at your time. Lorne and I, I don't think we could operate like that anyways. I don't think we could like set specific time. So maybe that's not the right strategy.

Well, and it's not even time. It's even like, what am I doing? What am I contributing and keeping a score or keeping a running list of I did X and I did Y and I did Z and you're kind of falling short on your side. Anytime we're kind of keeping track in that way, you've missed the energy of a team because the team is I have a free hand, I just jump in. Yeah. Like if I see Lauren, like if Lauren needs help with the baby right and both of us, I think together, like we'll step in and help each other. It's not like a score thing. Exactly. And so again, there goes your grade kind of, you know, elevating a little bit because that awareness of we're in this together. And the other thing to keep in mind in a relationship, right, is that we want to keep it fair, but fair and equal are not synonymous,

right? I have four kids. And if one of my kids got an ear infection, let's say, and they needed ear drops, I'm not lining up all four kids and saying, hey, guys, everyone needs to get those drops. Got to keep it the same. It's not fair. If it's not equal, it doesn't work like that. Fair is in a relationship that everyone gets what they need. And so if we can slow down and say, hey, babe, what are you needing? Hi, Han, what are you needing? And we're meeting those marks, we're swearing. And it doesn't matter if you're, let's say, doing all nights, if that's what Lauren's needing, and she's doing something for you that's meeting that need. You will feel that connection. You will feel that teamwork in that experience. I think men and women, and Lauren, feel free to jump in here.

I'm just, let me be creamed over here. I think you're doing great. I think I'll just generalize men for a second because they're not going to beat me up. I think we are not as vocal about our needs. I think men make great soldiers. I'm somebody, if I see something like that, you need to go there and you take that hill, like, go do it and I'll go do it. And I'll just like, do whatever I got to do it to do it. And so during that process, I'm not stopping and thinking like, oh, what do I actually need here? And I actually, as I think about it, I'm like to think that I'm a pretty low maintenance person when it comes to needs. Like, I don't need her to be cooking or cleaning or like doing a lot. I actually don't need a lot of affirmation. And because of that I think sometimes she thinks that since I'm so low maintenance that I don't need anything, but there's certain things that, you know, if I say, hey, you can go to, you're going to the gym, but I have Zoom meetings.

someone needs to come help with the baby, like that is something that's important to me, because I don't want to be distracted and holding the baby and she's crying and then Lauren's gone. And so it's like a little thing where it may not seem like a big deal to her, but to me like that all of a sudden out of nowhere will bubble up. Like that's a very big deal to me. So what keeps you from saying that beforehand? What keeps you from in the morning being like, hi, hon, I could really use your help? Well, I think I've set the bar too low in terms of my needs and expectations, right?

Where I don't really like, I'm not really a demanding, tell me if I'm wrong. I'm not a demanding husband. I don't need a lot. And so then when I say I do, it's like, oh, maybe that's not that's not that serious. Maybe he doesn't really need it. I think that his delivery is off. I think that if he had it different, your delivery is not, Hey, Hun, like she just said. No, but I don't talk like, hey, hon, you know. No, but yeah, you don't and you should. So let's Michaelize it. What would it look like for you to say? Let's hear what you really. I speak very blunt. So I'm like, yeah, I need somebody at the house to help me here. And it's, I don't mean it to not come from a loving place. I just say what's on my mind.

And then I think what's happening is because you get to a place where you say, okay, well, if you create a narrative for yourself, Warren has a tendency sometimes to create narratives. And I'm not. We all do. I hear that. But if it's like the narrative is Michael doesn't listen and Michael's delivery's off, what happens then is you can disregard what's being said. We selectively pay attention to things that support that narrative.

Yes. And so. Confirmation bias. Is that what it's called? I do do that. If you get to a place where you're like, hey, this guy's not listening and his deliveries off, there's probably validity there. and that's something that I can work on.

But at the same time, it doesn't mean what I'm saying should be disregarded. It's still important. Does that make sense? Well, and that's where we meet each other in the middle, because how can I work on saying it in a way that is easier for my partner to hear and take in and want to honor? How can I work harder at listening, you know, between the lines to what my partner is saying and not just be off put by the delivery? And that's where we work together when we meet in the middle.

The one good thing that gives me solace and throughout, like Lauren and I, we've been so close for so long is that we're both willing to do whatever we got to do to put in the work to protect the relationship. We know, I think, both of us fundamentally that this is what needs. So she's already telling you. She wants to hear, hey, hon. She wants you to slow down, right? And one way we can think about it. I'm pretty fast guy. Well, well, fast, but just nicer. No, I'm just getting. Niceer, a little nicer. No, no, no, no, different. But, but, but in one way to think about it, right? In a formula that can often be helpful is, how am I feeling, describing the situation in a neutral way, and then saying what I need.

I'm feeling overwhelmed, right? I have a bunch of meetings coming up this afternoon. It would really help me a lot if you could take the baby or maybe even find a different time to work out. Well, I want her to be able to work out whenever she wants because I think there's certain times. But that's when you talked about bringing somebody else in with that should. But my senses is that may be a little bit more loaded

because how does Lauren feel about that? Here's the thing. If she doesn't want somebody in at that time, I get it because if she wants... But in your mind, this is your choice. Either you can go work out and have this person come watch or pick another time. Yeah. So it's like it's still up to her, but it can't just be, no, it really is up to her. She can go work out whenever she wants. She could bring someone in, but you just can't expect to have me drop everything I'm doing anytime she wants to go do something.

But again, why do we go there? Expect me to drop everything and just, you know, responds, you know, at the snap of a finger. Because that's, because that's what ends up happening. Right? Because there's not, like, I get, I learn about these things five minutes before they're happening. He is, he is right. I'm a very like sporadic. Spuror of the moment. Spore of the moment. easygoing, like everything will be fine, like the house is burning down type of person. Very much like my father. There's a little ownership. Yeah, no, I'm very. It's not like she tells me these, like if it was 24 hours in advance, it's like this is what I'm doing. I think that I need to work on my communication is what it sounds like. We're going to work on that all together. And the

first thing we're going to start with are those family business meetings of what do we have on deck, what's going on? When do we have coverage? You know, when do we know about meetings? Hey, these are the the times when I'm off limits. Any other time I'm all. You know. yours. Yeah, that's not happening. So if we had those meetings, not yet. And so my frustration comes when I'm sitting on getting ready to do a Zoom meeting with my team or whatever. And all of a sudden, she's like, hey, bye, I'm going to the gym. Like there's a baby. I'm like, well, we didn't, I didn't know. Also, though, the baby does nap from 10 to 11 and she does nap her whole nap and it's fine. So like, for me, I'm like, okay, if I go to the gym at 9, you take the baby for an hour when you don't have meetings and then she's

napping for the other hour. And here's where we can get stuck in our own narratives, because that can make total sentence. And I could also hear in Michael's mind of like, yeah, but that question mark of what if. And so there's always a part of me that's now having to listen for a baby that doesn't allow me to fully focus in the meeting. Yes. And Lauren, that's cute that you think the baby does every single day, but I'm sure as a mother of four, you know that that's not always the case. She's a pretty good sleeper, Michael. Yes, but it's not always, like we're not batting 100% of sleeping from that exact time to that exact time. I would say we're batting like 98. No, we're betting like 80. And the thing is, is that other 20%, like you said, if I'm in something with a whole bunch of people. And listen,

not that my time is more important, but I'm trying to focus on one task and there's another. And it's then I'm not giving attention to the baby. I'm not giving attention to the team. And it's a problem. And that's it. It's not a question of more important, less important, right? It really feels like what we're talking about is feeling respected, you know, and are you respecting me and am I respecting you? And how do we share that feeling of mutual respect? Because I have no doubt that it's there. And there's no way you guys would have done as many joint ventures, baby, marriage, you know, work together if it wasn't there, but it can get lost in translation. And that's what we're trying to put back into place. Because I'll give you the reverse of it. Say you were going to the gym today at whatever

time, 8.30. And you were like, put out the door. And all of a sudden at the last minute, I was like, hey, by the way, I'm going somewhere else and do something. And just like, too bad. And I got in the car and left before you. You'd be sitting there being like, wait a minute. I had all this stuff planned. And you just left me and didn't tell me. That would be frustrating to you. And so I'm trying to just kind of point. Does it become the race of who can get out faster? Yes. And I don't want that to be communicating. So like, okay, if you're going to do that at this time. That's okay. We just need to have a meeting once a week. I actually have a question that's like, I just am curious what your answer is. With postpartum, I've noticed that I'm more sensitive to certain things that I wasn't sensitive to. So light, certain light, certain sounds,

slams of doors, like stuff that I wasn't as sensitive. And I noticed that it's, it's intensified. Is that something that you hear a lot? So it is. It's interesting, right? That there is more of, well, I think that comes in general, whenever our fuel tank is more full and we're more overwhelmed, there's a lot less latitude for different things around us. So the bang that may not have bothered me if I'm already at capacity is going to feel so much bigger. And so yes, a lot of people will experience a deeper sensitivity to sensory information in that way. I could feel that that was a little bit off. And that's it, right? And think about it. It's the same thing. If I'm well rested and I've just eaten and babies having a little bit of a harder day, no problem. I got this. If I'm tired and

I'm overwhelmed and things are already at capacity and then you need me, now I'm through the roof. Right? Now I'm like, oh, why are you being so difficult today? What is the secret to having four children? They come one at a time. They come one at a time. Yeah, but they're all here now, all four of them. They are, they're all here now. Yeah, no, it was rough in the beginning. You know, Elliot and I are both from New York. We're both East Coaster. So we have no family in town. He works his ass off. I know that. Yes, he does. Although, you know, a nice blessing that came out of COVID is that he's being a little bit more reasonable with his hours. So we're just to give context, he contracted COVID, which was horrific. We were both really worried about him. Yeah, thank you very much. Yeah, no, I will definitely throw my name

into that hat. We were definitely concerned. And thank God, he's home and he's safe and he's healthy, positive for antibodies, you know, like really doing well and totally back to himself. Good. Yeah, thank God. Yeah, he's a great guy. He is a great guy. Thank you. When I look at you guys, I think that you guys have it all figured out because what you guys do for professions because he understands the woman. Name a guy that understands the woman. Well, he's dedicated his life to it, you know. Although it's funny because it's made for some very awkward moments along the way. Like, what do you mean? Give me an example. Well, like, doing dula training together. I'm sorry. No woman should have to see their husband on all four pretending to be a birthing mom. Like, please.

Yeah, I won't put one to do that. Right? Or we went to like the dula. And like this woman is getting up and talking about like, this man just understands women so intimately. And I'm like, oh, I'm like, do I really have to sit through and listen to this? So fun, fun. So when you guys had kids, was it really seamless for you guys? Was it easy? No. And I think our story is pretty typical, you know, because, you know, we had baby number one and he was the kick in the pants that most babies are.

And, you know, we figured it out. And, you know, for us, Tina came 23 months. later, and it was really after our second that I was like, there's no way that people are just meant to do this on their own and that there's no information and there's no research and there's no support for postpartum. And some of the hardest moments for me, you know, would be like that multitasking, like, you know, my oldest Yosef needs to be picked up from school and Dina's napping. I'm like, who am I displacing here? And those feelings of like, oh my gosh, how do I navigate this? That really sent me on my quest to learn more about the postpartum period because I'm like,

how are we so ill prepared for this? No one talks about it. No one prepares you. No one offers you any resources. It's like, there you go. You have a baby. Jump in. And I'm like, no, there's no way. And it really became my passion of helping women and families not feel like they have to just jump in and step in it before they get to step out of it. But how do we identify those pitfalls and then learn how to avoid them. You think when you have a baby, it's done. You're like, I had the baby. I gave birth. Like, this is over. Right. And it's like you haven't even got it on the fucking roller coaster. Like the roller coasters doesn't even fucking started. It hasn't even started. I was a woman that never imagined birth and pregnancy and children. Like I just was very present with where I was at in life.

And I think it just shocked me that you have to do all this shit. All this shit happens to your body. Your tits, your boobs, your ass. Wait, why do you have tits and boobs? Just out of curiosity. I'm just kidding. Your tits, your ass. Even the bottoms of your feet. Everything. Like everything gets fucked up. Oh, yeah. And then. you have the baby and then you still don't get your body back, your breastfeeding. And then you get hit with postpartum. So it's just, it's, it blows my mind how much women have to deal with and men just sit back with a piece of hand there too. Well, as an outside observer, like if, taking myself out of the, that sounds weird, but taking myself out of this, I think Lauren, what she did in the beginning was she's like, okay,

cool, I'm sitting a time limit here in three months. Everything will be back to normal. And I think that time limit, one, was not realistic. I think she should be much more patient with herself and allow time. and like I'm not putting pressure. I don't care. Like, want to just be happy. But what happened was when you get to the three months and what you've told yourself will be back to normal is not, all of a sudden it caused all this anxiety and this stress and this depression because you're like you created this unrealistic expectation that couldn't be met. It wasn't possible to be met.

Right. And then when it didn't happen, it was like, oh, shit, what's going on? Well, and here's the problem because so often we don't even know the questions we're supposed to ask and we don't know what is realistic or not. On paper, three months sounds like a whole lot of time. Like, this is great. And then it's not until you get into it that you're like, oh, right? Three months, huh?

And it's hard. And, you know, you talk about breastfeeding in particular. I joke that my first book is going to be titled, you're more than a pair of boobs. It's one of the hardest adjustments that women have in that postpartum period. I noticed about breastfeeding. It's a very thankless job. The baby doesn't know what's happening. And the man is just, it's not.

Doesn't get it. Yeah, they're kind of like, oh, like, yeah. I have a girlfriend that's breastfeeding around the clock all the time. And like her husband complains about having to like give a bottle of her breast milk once a day. Or you're never available. You're always feeding. It's not a job where someone looks at you and says like, you know, it's just kind of like, Lauren, call me. Because that's where you need to hang out with more women.

Because there's not a woman alive who has breastfed a baby that doesn't know what a sacrifice it is. And listen, I'm not saying that I'm some breastfeeding hero. It's a lot. And then there are those moms. who solely pump, which I'm like, you are next level, right? Yeah, the pumping is a lot, too. She didn't like the pumping. I wonder if you should send us a bill for this session.

Are you kidding me? I'm so happy to be able to be able to talk about this. You guys, this is just the beginning. Tell us about your parenting workshop. Sure. So my workshop is called the afterbirth plan. And it just happened to coincide with COVID that we launched it on Teachable. So it's now a self-paced class that you can do online.

That's what I'm going to send you guys, not the best. Bill. I want you to do the class. Okay, I'll do the class. We'll reconvene after after we talk about the escalator. She'll be giving tests. I just need to try to get above a C average. I'm going for like a C plus B. No, you need to go for an A.

Yeah, yeah. Okay. Absolutely. And the nature of the workshop is, you know, I want people to do it in the second trimester ideally, right? It's that golden trimester. Hopefully you're feeling good. Hopefully morning sickness has passed.

And you're not yet in the throes of preparing for birth and gear. And the workshop has three parts. accurate expectations, right? I don't want people saying what you said and feeling caught off guard and no one told me was going to be like this and I was expecting X and I got Y and it kicked me in the pants. So the first part is expectations. The middle part is all about the relationship because we know that struggles between partners can be a huge risk factor in developing a PMA or a perinatal mood or anxiety disorder. And so again, I want couples to be preparing and, you know, using the different tools in their tool belt during pregnancy so that when postpartum hits, they're ready to go and they can

hit the ground running because everything makes sense and they've tried it. And then the last part of the workshop is all education about the different postpartum or perinatal illnesses so that both parts of the couple have heard it. They're on the same page. They know what to look for. Oftentimes it's the non-birthing partner that recognizes that the birthing partner is struggling. And, you know, the more we can talk about it and destigmatize it, the more we can create that space and that to talk about it. Can we also just for one second before we go talk about the fact that celebrities say, the weight just fell off because I was breastfeeding and chasing the kids? What a load of shit is that? What a load of crap? The weight just fell off because you were chasing your kids.

That's another lie. The weight takes a whole year to fall off too. So that's it, nine months on, nine months off. So get away from the chasing the kid part. The girl's been reading too much daily male. Well, the cruel reality is for some breastfeeding does suck out that weight. And it becomes that like, that's so not fair. I think that my weight didn't start dropping until I stopped. And that's it. For a lot of people, it's the other way. For a lot of people, their body holds on to that extra weights to fuel the milk. And it's not until they stop that they're able to lose that. So one of the other very unfair parts of womanhood. There's so many unfair parts. There's so many unfair parts. I think I understand women like 0.03.0.0.0.3. percent better than I did before. Literally all you have to do is, it's a lot to figure out.

Shut the fuck up and listen. Like, it's like impossible for you. What'd you say? No, I'm just going. So you ready, Michael? Practice with me, not and smile. Tell me more. Tell me more. Oh, I can tell your eyes are glazing over. Yes, I noticed that also. Yeah, yeah, don't. Yeah, I can tell when they're this is. This is a lot to process here. You know, we got to do, I actually learned a lot in this session. We got to do, we got to do this again because you could look at something on social. And if you looked at our social, you said, oh, like family and baby, it looks easy and likely have help. And I think what we're trying to point out here is it's not, I know that this is not easy for anybody. And there's struggles that every relationship goes through, especially when you add a

kid in dynamic. And I think that it's important for people, especially our listeners, to know that like, Lauren and I are obviously works in progress and we're trying and doing our best. But there's also things that we're constantly working on in the relationship to try to get better. I'm not trying to show a perfect life. But the other thing to point out is that I think a lot of people give up on relationships or give up in situations. And so while there could be bumps in the road that we have to navigate, a commitment to putting in the work to make sure you get through it. And not there might be, right? So you ask like what that secret is. So Elliot and I are going on, I think, 24 years of marriage. Well, oh, gee. But, you know, like you said, there were times when it was

gnarly and it's hard and there are definitely going to be bumps. But there's that commitment. There's that commitment to not lose sight of each other. There's that commitment to work on it and to recognize we're all work in progress. Yep. Absolutely. And just do what I say. That always helps. Hi, honey. Are you listening? Where is your Instagram handle? Where can people find your workshop, Pimp yourself out? That's right. So Dr. Alyssa D. Berlin on Instagram, the afterbirthplant.com. And yeah, that's me. Okay. Come check me out. You are amazing. I'm so happy. This was important that we did something like this. It's interesting. We did it with a mic. But that was very helpful and cathartic for me. In a way, I probably feel more comfortable on the mic than if I was not, if I was just going in an office and doing it.

Is that makes sense? Absolutely. Give him a mic and he doesn't shut up. Well, but that's the secret. No. Oh, God, okay. We'll do like part two on this. Thank you so much for coming on.

Maybe next time we'll have both you and Elliot on together. I was saying the same thing. How fun would that be? Yeah, that would be fun. We'll do couples. We'll double date. Especially because we haven't seen him since she gave birth. Yeah, he was going to come to my birth, but you guys just got back from Hawaii.

Oh, sure. And you were literally flying in while I was giving birth. So it was, we missed each other by one day. By one day. Yeah. But anyone out there who's listening, I would highly recommend getting a doula. I had such a good experience with Andre Lemon. And I know, and I've heard so many incredible things about Dr. Berlin as a dula. He was my chiropractor during pregnancy. Yeah, he's amazing. And our dula, we had the same one. All four births became a part of the family. The dula really helps with the energy of the room. Beyond. And she did postpartum work with us. And we would joke. Like there was nothing like when Sherry was in the house. You could sleep with both eyes closed. It was amazing. Michael hasn't slept with both eyes closed. Well, Andre needed to come back and help me. But I was going to say that. I imagine that was even pre-baby.

Yeah. Yeah, you're not the best sleeper. No, no. I mean, if literally like a rain drop hits the window, I'm up like a... So you and Elliot. There was gunshots outside my window the other night. Like one went through our, like, our window and I didn't wake up. Not really.

It didn't really go through the window. But it was down the street. I'm like, you know, I don't know how she didn't wake up. I was like high alert. I'm tired. I was putting on the SWAT gear, like ready to get after it. Thank you for coming on. Thank you.

Thank you for having me. Wait before you go. Dr. Alyssa Berlin is giving away a copy of the afterbirth plan. All you have to do to win this is tag someone to listen to the podcast on my latest Instagram at the Skinny Confidential. This plan is legit. It is what you want if you're planning on having a baby or if you just had a baby or if you're

pregnant. Definitely check out Dr. Elissa Berlin on Instagram. And with that, we'll see you on Tuesday. This episode was brought to you by Four Sigma. Guys, did you know mushrooms can prevent and treat many diseases and boost overall health? They are known to be super healing. You know, I'm obsessed with their mushroom hot cacao mix.

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