The Bossticks - Dr. Daniel Stickler On How To Expand Your Mind, Unlock Your Key Thoughts, & Potentially Utilize Psychedelics

Episode Date: April 8, 2021

#346: Today we are joined by Dr. Daniel Stickler. Dr. Stickler is the Co-Founder and Chief Medical Officer of The Apeiron Center for Human Potential and Chief Science Officer for Apeiron Academy. He is the pioneer behind systems-based precision performance medicine, a new paradigm that re-defines medicine from the old symptoms based disease model to one of limitless peak performance in all aspects of life. To connect with Dr. Daniel Stickler click HERE To connect with Lauryn Evarts click HERE To connect with Michael Bosstick click HERE Read More on The Skinny Confidential HERE For Detailed Show Notes visit TSCPODCAST.COM To Call the Him & Her Hotline call: 1-833-SKINNYS (754-6697) This episode is brought to you by The Skinny Confidential  The Hot Mess Ice Roller is here to help you contour, tighten, and de-puff your facial skin and It's paired alongside the Ice Queen Facial Oil which is packed with anti-oxidants that penetrates quickly to help hydrate, firm, and reduce the appearance of fine lines and wrinkles, leaving skin soft and supple. To check them out visit www.shopskinnyconfidential.com now.  This episode is brought to you by RITUAL Forget everything you thought you knew about vitamins. Ritual is the brand that's reinventing the experience with 9 essential nutrients women lack the most. If you're ready to invest in your health, do what I did and go to www.ritual.com/skinny  Your future self will thank you for taking Ritual: Consider it your 'Lifelong-Health-401k'. Why put anything but clean ingredients (backed by real science) in your body? This episode is brought to you by JuneShine JuneShine Hard Kombucha is the most insanely delicious, better-for-you alcohol. t's made with real, organic ingredients and unlike other alcoholic beverages, they are transparent about every ingredient they put in their products. Best of all, it doesn't leave you with that I'm-too-full-after-drinking feeling, but it does give you a lighter, brighter buzz. We've worked out an exclusive deal for Skinny Confidential podcast listeners. Receive 20% off PLUS Free Shipping on their bestselling variety pack. This is a great way to try all of their delicious flavors. Go to www.juneshine.com/skinny or use code SKINNY at checkout to claim this deal. This episode is brought to you by Oshēn Salmon Oshēn Salmon was created for those who longed for their perfect protein match. One that was easy to prepare, packed with protein, and made us glow from within. Hello omega-3s! Ocean raised salmon has more than 1,500 mg of Omega-3 content which is double the Omega-3 content versus most wild salmon. To get your box of Oshen visit www.oshensalmon.com and use code SKINNY for 15% off plus free shipping.  Produced by Dear Media 

The following podcast is a dear media production. She's a lifestyle blogger extraordinaire. Fantastic. And he's a serial entrepreneur. A very smart cookie. And now Lauren Everts and Michael Bostic are bringing you along for the ride. Get ready for some major realness. Welcome to the skinny confidential, him and her.

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Introduce our guest, please. Okay, today I'm very excited. We have Dr. Daniel Stickler on this show. And Lauren has been touching on psychedelics and the effects on the brain and unlocking human potential for so long. And I said, Lauren, if you're going to do that and you're going to continue to talk about in our experiences over and over to the audience who's maybe a little skeptical and maybe a little confused, wants to hear some medical background on this.

stuff. Well, now we got that person for you. Dr. Daniel Stickler. He is the co-founder and chief medical officer of the Appurian Center for Human Potential and Chief Science Officer for Apparian Academy. He is the pioneer behind systems-based precision, performance medicine, and new paradigm that redefines medicine from the old symptoms-based disease model to one of the limitless peak performance in all aspects of life. He is an expert on this subject. He knows so much about psychedelics, about plant-based medicine, about pretty much all this stuff. And it was so important that we brought him on the show because if we're going to be opening up subjects on this podcast for you, the listeners, I want to make sure that we also have

medical reference or experts. And that's really, you know, Lauren and I are just everyday people like everyone else. But now we have an actual expert to answer our questions, hopefully answer some of yours. With that, Dr. Daniel Stickler, welcome with the skinny confidential, him and her show. This is the skinny confidential, him and her. So when I was in high school and I tried cocaine, the come down is horrible. MDMA for me was horrible. Maybe it was not good MDMA.

Is that something to do with my makeup? Am I do? Like, is cocaine something that you stay away from? Cocaine is definitely something to stay away from. One of the major downsides of cocaine, and I was a neuroscience major in undergraduate, and we actually researched addiction to cocaine. and there's a specific area in the brain that just can turn on either the first time you do it or after 100 times. I don't like it at all.

For addiction. I mean, you just don't want to mess with that. And, I mean, it's not worth it. It's a five minute, 10 minutes high that you get. And then you just come down and you want to do more to keep it going. Yeah, that was my, I've actually, I've never done it personally. And I don't pass any judgments. But I never got it.

I never got this thing. Like, if I drink, I like to catch a buzz and it carries you through the night and you can have a good time. or if you're doing psychedelics, you know, it'll last a little bit longer and you can have fun. But I never got this thing where you're chasing this thing every five, ten minutes and run into the bathroom over and over and over. It just felt like, what's the point of that? Right. From like a practical standpoint.

We have all of our clients wearable monitors, and I track them all the time. So I look at what happens to their stress, their sleep, their resting heart rates and their heart rate variability. And we'll go through their numbers and we'll see at times when they've done something. Like I've had a lot of people that said they smoked weed to relax, and yet their stress scores just shot off the chart when they did it. But they had the perception that it was relaxing them and it was actually stressing them. Alcohol's the same way.

It just shoots it off the chart. And it's strange because I've seen, like with some of the psychedelics, like clients that have used LSD or that have used psilocybin, I've actually seen their stress scores come down from it. It's a strange phenomenon I didn't expect to see, but from what they've been telling me is their timing and I look at their scores, seems to be pretty accurate. I'm not recommending my experience to anyone, but I had the worst postpartum depression. It was absolutely horrible.

And I did microdosed mushrooms three times in a row, and it got me 90% over it. Do you see that a lot with a lot of people who come in depressed and then they microdose? I have talked to a lot of clients that have done some. self-medicating with the psilocybin. And looking at the research on the psilocybin, I mean, there's pretty good research on single large doses resolving depression, anxiety, even PTSD, and addictions. Really good research coming out on addictions. A lot of the research is done on end-of-life care, the psilocybin and people that are in fear

of death and they have anxiety around dying and they do a huge dose of mushrooms, a heroic dose and they come out of it and they are good with passing at that point. I don't know if they see God or what it is, but they have this perception that this isn't the end of things. So let's, I want to take a couple steps back for the people just tuning in. When we, when we talk about psilocybin, I think, and people talk, say, mushrooms. I think a lot of people have the image of your face melting off and you're seeing these crazy visions. And when we talk to our parents about it, you know, they come from the previous generation and they think it's this thing where they're going to, if they take it, they're going to go crazy and be all this danger. And I think a lot of people think that

from a medical and scientific perspective, maybe you can help shed some light or like maybe a little bit more clarity on psilocybin and the effects it has on the brain and the mind. Well, I mean, all of these all these triptamine compounds, DMT, psilocybin, ibogaine, they all have an effect on the serotonin receptors in the brain. And they can vary in how they affected. And even like psilocybin, I mean, there's there's a thing called an entourage effect. So when you get the full mushroom, you get more than just the silicin and psilocybin. You get a full range of other chemicals in there like Argenson, which is a euphoric compound. So there's been a lot of companies isolating the silicin or the psilocybin and using that, but they're finding it's not giving the same effect. So the question is,

you know, what is this entourage effect and how many chemicals are involved with it. And so when people are talking to you and consulting you about this and they're hesitant or they're nervous, how do you kind of walk them through the process? Well, I have to kind of step back and say, this is something I do not recommend you do, but if you have chosen to do that, this is probably the way you should go about it if you're going to. And that's that first do no harm philosophy for medicine. If you don't give them some direction, you can do harm with them.

So they're going to do it one way or the other. So you can give them a little bit of guidance in that or direct them to a site where they can find something to give them the information that they need. It's too bad that physicians aren't able to talk about it more because it's, I mean, I look at the clients that I have, and a large number of them are doing psychedelics. And they're doing them, some of them are doing them the right way, and some of them are really playing with fire with it. So what's an example of playing with fire? You know, the people that go out and try to get like MDMA, they're going to get Molly or ecstasy. And typically, MDMA, pure MDMA is not a party drug.

It's not something you want to take and go out and party. And so what they do is they kind of mix it. with a little bit of methamphetamine, typically. So when you're getting molly or ecstasy, you're usually getting something mixed with methamphetamine. I don't think a lot of people know that. Yeah, they don't. And it's usually if you're getting it in a capsule or in a tablet form,

you're probably going to get adulterated MDMA. Which is why when I took it, I felt so bad, probably, because it's probably laced with something. Well, it can and can't. I mean, typically when you take it, you're going to get an amphetamine-like initial response from it, But you're not going to have this super hyped up activity level ready to go dance. I mean, you just want to lay down in a cuddle puddle and just like lounge with people and relax.

So it's when they put the other stuff in there that helps people to do that. And that's where the danger comes because they'll overheat, because their body temperature goes up, their heart rate goes up, and then they get out on a hot dance floor and dance, and they can have heat strokes. Where do you think all this stuff got such a bad name? Because it's obviously having a massive resurgence. More and more people are talking about. People like yourself are studying. There's a lot of smart minds in the space now, which I think is an incredible thing.

But where along the way did plant medicine and psychedelics kind of go astray and get such a bad rap? I look back at when I was a child in the after-school specials about how bad drugs were and everything, the LSD and pod and all of this. I mean, it was just a massive campaign of it. A lot of these were freely available until the government said, oh, people were partying with them and they put them on a schedule one. And the problem with putting them on a schedule one is you can't even do research with them. Hold up. I am about to tell you about the best vitamins on the planet ritual. So we've talked a lot about this before on the podcast, but a woman's journey from pregnancy to postpartum can be challenging.

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Really hard to get, though. Like in 1984, the DEA took MDMA and put it on a Schedule 1. And prior to 84, it was freely available just for anybody. But they put it on a Schedule 1 because it was hitting the party scene. But up until that time, there had been therapists that had used it in over 500,000 therapy sessions. And this wasn't like it was just a, you know, a random test. It had been used 500,000 times in therapy. And researchers and therapists filed a suit.

The FDA allowed the suit to go forward. And the judge sided with the therapists and the researchers and said, this shouldn't be a Schedule I. And the FDA chose to ignore it. There was another appeal. Same thing, different judge, same outcome. FDA chose to ignore it. So now it goes into Schedule I, which we know that when a drug gets put on Schedule I, it does nothing for reducing the recreational use of it. It just doesn't happen.

So why would you put it on a Schedule 1? put it on like a Schedule 2 or a Schedule 3 where it can be prescribed for the purposes that it works for. I mean, MDMA is truly a love drug and it works really well. It's just right now it's illegal. But the research is so strong right now. I mean, MAPS has done this, they're in phase three trial and the preliminary results are going to blow people away. Yeah, I mean, we've read a lot. This is why we wanted to have someone like you on the show because we've talked.

about it just from our experience and we said, you know, before we really go in depth on this and present it to this size of an audience, we really need to have somebody that can speak as you do from an educated standpoint on what's going on here. Because I do, I think Maps is going to, the stuff they're going to come out with is going to be incredible. It's going to be groundbreaking. And what does MAPS stand for, just if anyone doesn't know? Multidisciplinary applied psychedelics, I believe. I can't remember exactly. I just know it as maps. Yeah, that's what I know it as. I've been to several of their

events and never paid attention to the full. So what were the, when these therapists were administrating it to these half a billion studies, what were they primarily treating? They were doing mostly couples therapy. And one of the interesting things about MDMA, and they say it's a love drug, and there's a really good book by Earp called Love Drugs. He and another bioethicist from King's College, did an entire book on this, was released a couple years ago.

They're really pro having this drug available for people to use in the right conduct. context and people will say, well, you're going to fall in love with somebody just by taking a drug. Well, it doesn't work that way. It enhances what's already there. It doesn't create something that's already there. So a lot of couples therapists would say they could tell if a couple was going to stay together or not when they did MDMA with them because they would give them the MDMA and you would either express the love of the other person or you express a generalized love for everything because you can take MDMA, go out in the woods and you're in love with trees. and birds and everything like that, and you feel it right here.

And when couples would come to couples therapy, and one of the couple would be like really adoring of the other person, but the other person was feeling love, but they weren't directing it at the partner. They knew that wasn't going to work out. It was only when the two partners actually felt that together. And specifically, what's the context that you would use it in? So they would just come to therapy, like regular couples therapy, and they would just distribute the MDNA and they sit sitting and talk together?

From what I understand, they would usually do an individual session. So individually, with one of them on the MDMA first to talk about things. Hopefully, one of them doesn't try to fuck the therapist. Exactly. But remember, it only occurs if the love is already present. You do feel an attraction, though, for the other person, but just it's not like that kind of attraction. It's just like you want to hold somebody, but it's not a sexual type of thing from what I understand. So it's a really amazing drug when used in the right context.

And that's the key thing. And that's with all of these, with psilocybin, with LSD, and they have great therapeutic potential. Even DMT and ayahuasca, Ibrahim, they have great potential if you used in the right way. but a lot of this is going on in the party scene and people are using the excuse of, oh, yeah, I'm really working on my enlightenment and all this, but they're really just, they're doing drugs. Could you walk us through those drugs that you just named using them in the right way? Like, for instance, psychedelics, what's a way that you think as a doctor is really productive?

Could you tell us DMT, how is that productive? LSD, what are the actual, like, circumstances where it is used in a way that actually helps you? So the most research right now are probably the MDMA and the psilocybin. And MDMA is great for PTSD treatments. Everybody has trauma. I mean, I used to think that there were people like myself. I didn't have trauma. But I did.

And everybody has some form of trauma that they kind of suppress or they've never really worked through. And MDMA gives that ability to voice that. MDMA is really cool. MDMA allows you to speak from the heart and receive from the heart. So couples that will be talking about disagreements, the one person will say, it really hurt me when you did this. And the other person is like, oh, I'm so sorry.

I didn't even realize it. It's- Like drops the guard down. The ego's gone. The ego's gone. You're just in pure love at that point, and you want to hear the person and you want them to hear you. Where can I sign up with Michael?

I have a list of things that I want to go through in my notes app. No, I mean, listen, the conversations that we've had when we partake have been some of the most groundbreaking conversations as a couple. It's bypassed, I think, what would have taken years of therapy, honestly, because, you know, it's not this tit for tat. You did this. Well, you did that thing. It's really like, oh, you start to understand the person. But I want to talk a little bit more about trauma because before speaking to people like yourself and having experience of our own, I used to think the same thing, like, oh, maybe I don't have any trauma. Maybe I'm just, but. What I've learned is that the brain does a really good job of burying trauma and in making you unaware of trauma on a conscious level. Like maybe subconsciously it's there and it's affecting you in other ways, but the brain does such a good job of trying to guard you from something that maybe happened in your past and maybe you don't even remember. And I feel like for some reason, these things open up those pathways to be able to address

that trauma. And in the beginning, my fear was, okay, well, if there's something that I've suppressed this long, maybe it's good that it's suppressed. But what I learned is it's probably affecting me in other ways. And with this stuff, what I found out is it helps you kind of address that stuff and move forward in a productive way. And what I'm asking you, and I know that was long-winded, is why is that? You know, the brain tends to protect you. So it will, it will wall off areas of memory. It's one of the great things about ketamine is ketamine allows access to memories that you can't recall. I mean, I've had people that barely remember their childhood and they're on ketamine. And right

after the ketamine, they're naming off childhood friends and teachers and events that occurred in childhood. It's just that, you know, our brain likes to partition things. And trauma is a strange event. When something happens in a trauma, whether it be a psychological trauma or a physical trauma, there's a coding. So this goes to the hippocampus. And the hippocampus, and the hippocampus, codes it as a memory and an emotion associated with that. And a lot of PTSD, they never file it away as a memory. It's constantly a scenario that can come up at any time with the emotion with it. So they never have it, the event classified as a memory itself.

And a lot of that has to do with their cortisol response, their cortisol receptors, how they respond to that. So after a trauma, somebody who's more prone to, to PTSD, they're going to not file it as memory. They'll file the emotion of it. And then when events occur that initiates some kind of sequence again, it'll take them back into that. I'm getting around your question here, but I have worked with some people that had identified some childhood experiences. Like, there was this guy that he had said that he used to love to write, and some teacher chastised him in front of a bunch of people when he was in sixth grade. And

And he remembered that, but he didn't associate it with anything traumatic for himself. But he hadn't written since that time. He used to write just amazing stories. And after he kind of realized that that was a trauma that he had internalized, and he worked through it, he was able to kind of get himself back on track and start writing again. And this was 40 years later. For some reason, the word ketamine scares me. And I don't know if I'm just conditioned for that word to be scary, but it's such a, like, powerful word.

For some reason, I think horse tranquilizer. It is. It is. Okay. So can people come in and really use it in a way that's productive? And if so, how? Yeah, there's a couple ways it's being used. So ketamine's been used in human anesthesia as well for decades.

And it's cheap anesthesia. So third world countries use a lot of ketamine because it's like two or three dollars. to give somebody full sedation with it. And that's with an intravenous or an intramuscular dose. There's some clinics that are doing intravenous, some clinics that do intramuscular, and then typically they'll prescribe an intranasal as a maintenance dose to kind of get people through

or just use the intranasal from the get-go. But what we've seen is that people do best when they go on a full kind of journey dose of ketamine, and they're able to sit and integrate afterwards. So a lot of these clinics, I've talked to people that have gone to some of these clinics, and they go into a sterile room, they get their IV therapy, and then the person at the end of it goes, so what did you think? And it's not an integration. So they're not able to integrate what they actually just went through, and it can be really confusing because ketamine alters your top-down versus bottom-up processing. So bottom-up is the subconscious.

It's these thoughts that are crazy thoughts that are just, oh, that's impossible. And the top down will filter those. And they'll say, nope, we're not going to let you think that thought. We're not going to let you think that thought. And the lateral prefrontal cortex of the brain is kind of that gateway. Ketamine turns that off. And all of a sudden, you have bottom-up processing. So this subconscious just comes into full bloom.

And that's why everybody has the magical thinking and the dissociation. So they feel like they're out of their body. and at higher doses you get actually ego dissolution and you realize unity consciousness or you experience God. And those can be profound if they're integrated in the right way. They can be scary if they're integrated in the wrong way or interpreted in the wrong way.

So it's good to have somebody that can sit there and I truly feel like when we do a ketamine therapy in the office, we will sit and we have a room that is it's kind of a comfortable, non-sterile looking room. It doesn't look like a clinic. And we do intramuscular because having the IV there, a lot of people will move on ketamine. And you want to let them move and just kind of keep an eye on them so they don't hurt themselves. But there's a lot of movement.

Like people will do hand mudras that have no idea what a hand muddra is. I have no idea. It's just that they'll be moving their hands and making beautiful movements with it. I have no idea. I don't know why it occurs, but it's a common theme in ketamine. Wait, we need to talk about Junshine, hard kombucha. This is the most insanely delicious alcohol. That's right. Junshine has a hard cambucha. It's made with real organic ingredients. They're so cute. They look adorable on your Instagram stories and feed, but they also taste so good. I am a huge kombucha fan in general, but this one is super low in sugar. It's easy on the gut. It's gluten-free and it's full of probiotics. They call it the champagne of kombucha. They use this green tea and honey as opposed to a lot of brands that use black tea and sugar, and it gives it this very smooth, less acidic taste. You could enjoy it in the beautiful can. You could put it in a big wine goblet. Sometimes I like to put ice in it and stuff basil in it and make it a whole experience.

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pack. This is such a great way to try all their delicious flavors at once. You're going to go to Juneshine.com slash skinny or use code Skinny at checkout to claim this deal. That's j-un-h-I-N-E-com slash skinny, and this discount is only valid for their variety pack. You should know June Shrine can also be found in over 10,000 stores across the country, including Whole Foods, Safeway, Kroger, and Publix. Cheers. Tell us your favorite story of a patient that came in, maybe having so much anxiety or depression or trauma, and tell us what the ketamine did for them. So we had a guy that he was a business executive here in the States, but he had come from Columbia. And he had great to grown up in a very traumatic childhood. He had been overweight as a child. He had a fear of water

as a child. And that progressed through his life. And he never wore shorts or short-sleeved shirts, even though he was like 20% body fat. I mean, he had gotten very fit. And he truly had this such a low self-esteem for himself. And he went through ketamine. in therapy with us and he literally swam around the room on the carpet swimming and he said he was in quicksand and he was drowning and when he came out he said he had died and it truly was a part of him had died and it was that part that was telling him he wasn't worthy of anything and over the next couple weeks he came in and he was wearing short sleep he was so proud of himself for wearing a short sleep shirt. And then he wore shorts and then he went to the pool

with his kids. And so his life changed so dramatically. And he was so elated by what he had discovered with that. And it was just one session. So in your practice, the psychedelics are not legal yet. I'm going to say yet because I think they're going to be. Is DMT legal? No. No. So the only thing that the practice can do is ketamine. Correct. Okay. For now. For now. Yeah, we're hoping that the MDMA comes online soon in the psilocybin because those have the greatest therapeutic potential that we've seen. If you could visually tell us a graft of which each one is for, that'd be very helpful. For instance, if you could say psychedelics is really great for depression and anxiety and this one's good for trauma, is it easy to put them in boxes like that? It isn't from a generalized category. Now, this is one of the things. So we have a genetics company and we do genetic polymorphisms to identify. And a lot of people are using this for personalized medicine so they can identify who's going to respond best to certain things.

And we've been approached by three different psychedelic companies that are looking for the medical side of psychedelics. They're waiting for it to happen, but they're wanting to develop genetic protocols where they can look at and get probabilities of who's going to respond best to what. Because some people will respond really, really well to MDMA. and other people will go into full anxiety and fear with MDMA. Same thing with LSD. I mean, you can go into full psychotic break versus the person that just has this beautiful experience with it. And psilocybin is the one that's probably the most attractive

from the identifying genetic response to it because it's so varied with each person. You just can't typically predict a good trip versus a bad one. And it's important because psilocybin has probably one of the greatest potentials of all of the psychedelics that are coming on board right now. Now, like for anxiety, PTSD, depression, MDMA can work depending on the cause. So it depends on where this comes from.

Silicibin works really well for depression, anxiety, and the LSA. D has been, they've been doing some research on the depression and anxiety with that one as well. So they hit all these different areas, but it depends on what the person's kind of context is. So you would choose, if these were all available, you would choose one specifically for that person based on their history and what you suspect that they would be, what would be underlying what's going on. Ketamine is great because it brings up the memories and you can, you can identify. what's going on. And that's why it's so effective in PTSD, anxiety, depression. I mean, depression right now is huge. I mean, there is a tsunami of psychiatric illness right now. Oh, yeah. I mean, especially after the year we just had. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. As you were talking,

I was thinking, you know, from a scientific medical standpoint, if you were to, you know, this stuff is becoming more readily available. People are getting their hands on it. If you were to talk to somebody and coach them through like, hey, do you do it this way? It's going to be a bad time. It's going to be a bad trip. What are some of the things these people should look out for to avoid having, in quotation, is a bad trip? Well, one of the things you should avoid the, you should avoid the synthetics if you're not 100% sure of the source and that it's unadulterated. So like MDMA, ketamine, and LSD, those are your synthetics. What are some of the things that can happen if, you know, get a bad batch or whatever? Yeah, they can just get adulterated with

people will typically lace them with other chemicals. And that's the scary part. What's scary right now is, I mean, and I don't know if this plays into these type of substances, but fentanyl is a scary substance right now that I think is getting mixing a lot of stuff. And I don't think people realize how dangerous that can be, especially if you don't realize you're taking it. Yeah. I mean, I don't, I mean, we use fentanyl and surgery. I was a surgeon for 10 years. And I can't imagine why somebody would want to do fentanyl. Can you give us your background? Tell us how you got into this. I would love to hear more. So when I went into medical school, I was disenchanted with the whole disease model in pharmacology. And I loved working with my hands. So surgery gave me a way to do something where I could, somebody would come in, their quality of life would drop due to something surgically related. And I would intervene and bring them back up to their baseline. And the rest of medicine to me was a stepwise postponement of death. So somebody comes in, they have an incident, you stabilize them.

They stabilize here. They drop down again. You stabilize here. until they die. And I just didn't like that. I mean, you know, I thought medicine should be something that should help optimize people, make them resilient, anti-fragile, and build them up. So I went into surgery, and I did that for 10 years, but then I discovered age management medicine back in 2005 and started doing that because I suddenly saw there was medicine for healthy people, too, that they could go to the doctor and actually get results. I mean, when I went to the,

I went to the doctor, my doctor, who was a classmate of mine, and And he said, why are you here? And I said, I'm here for just a general checkup. And he said, no, really, why are you here? I said, yeah, just a general checkup. He goes, no, something's wrong, right? And I said, no, nothing's wrong. I mean, it's like you have to be sick to go to the doctor.

It wasn't something you could go and just get checked up and get advice. It just didn't happen. And I started doing the age management, which was opening that up. And then my wife joined me in the practice, and she's a colonel in the Air Force. She's had 30 years in the Air Force, and she worked with human performance in the Air Force. So we were like the perfect couple for this. And she started working with stress response and brain activity. So on all of our clients, before we would do even ketamine, we actually map their brain.

We actually look to see if there's any potential negative effects that can occur. Wow. So before you even do it, you look at the brain. Right. And we also work with their breathwork. So we do breath mechanics and breath structure. We make sure that they get their breathing to the point where they're controlling stress state. And once they've achieved that, then we'll talk to them about potentially doing the ketamine if they need it.

But we make sure we really just kind of map it out and understand that we know their brain is receptive to this and not going to crash from it. But then recently we added another area. So it was kind of like we started off with body and then went to mind and now we've integrated the. the spirit piece where we work with people's purpose, with relationships, with love and how they go about their life because it turned out we were doing a lot of work with people on those. I mean, their whole issues that were holding them back had something to do with psychosocial situations. You kind of addressed the person as a whole. So let's say Michael and I were to come into your practice. Walk us through what everything

would look like. Like what's from when we walk in the door to when we leave, How many appointments is it? What does it look like? And let's say our brains are good for ketamine. Okay. So it would start off where we would get a large battery of blood work. We would get your genetics and get a full 80-page genetic report on you. And what do you need the genetics?

I'm going to have questions. So that we can personalize things for you. And we can see the genetics we use are more lifestyle genetics. So we use them to help identify dietary patterns, supplementation patterns, exercise patterns, sleep patterns, and stress patterns. that we can see to help guide us. So we're big into data. We're very data-driven.

We would send you out a first beat device, which would, it's like a EKG device that you wear for three days, and it measures 300,000 heartbeats, and you document everything you do over that three-day period. And we can see what happens to your heart rate variability and your stress during these, and are you recovering,

how's your exercise and your recovery from the exercise? We get cognitive testing, So we have you do a battery of cognitive tests to see what the brain, where the brain is functioning. And we do some other epigenetic age tests. We do urinary metabolites. And then once those are done, then we bring you into the clinic for your appointment. And usually it's a two-day intake. And so the first day you will spend generally two to three hours, one-on-one with me or one of our other clinicians.

and then you'll go through the EEG brain brainwave mapping. You'll go through what we call psychophysiologic stress profile, and that's where we hook you up to the machine looks like a lie detector when we measure skin conduct and skin temperature, respirations, then chest and belly, muscle tension, expired CO2 levels. And we see how you respond to different stressors. And we can identify things that persist.

So do you get back to baseline after this stressor is removed or these other parameters going up? do neuromuscular mapping of the body to see that all the neuromuscular movements are intact. We look at, and we do a posture scan. We do mobility assessments. I think that's it for the two days. And then at the end of the two days, I sit down with you and give you a preliminary plan, but then what happens is your primary clinician goes to the whiteboard. So we do whiteboards twice a week, and we usually have eight to ten of our clinical staff there. And what we'll do is I'll take a client and they'll present everything.

Their labs, their genetics, their lifestyle, their quality of life inventories and all of that. And then we will come up with, okay, these are what we think is going on. And are there common findings when you do that whiteboard or is it it's different? Everybody's different. Everybody's different. Yeah. Let me tell you about ocean salmon. This is created for those who longed for their perfect protein match.

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Nothing's worse than non-fresh fish. Yeah, nothing's worse. So he's very picky about his salmon. I'm telling you, make my lemon salmon. It is so, so good. I add vegetables on the side, some wild rice. It's absolutely delicious. You could put a dallop of crem fresh or sour cream.

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And we have two performance psychologists on staff that will work with them on mindset stuff and really, really moving forward in a positive way. And then over the course of the year, I have 30-minute calls once a month with each of my clients' video calls. and they're all wearing, we give them wearable monitors like the garment, I'll just, I'll track what's happening with them. And I'll say, listen, I'm seeing a pattern here with your stress scores. You're tanking on Saturday and Sunday. And it takes you a couple days to recover from that. So what are you doing on the weekends? And it turns out they're having alcohol on Friday nights and Saturday nights and it's just draining their system and they're not aware of it.

Can you talk about that for a little bit with, you know, I think a lot of people, you know, the weekend wires, you go out and drink and obviously have the Sunday scurries. Chemically, physically, what's going on when you partake in alcohol? I mean, and listen, we both do, but we all know that feeling of anxiety going into a Monday. There's nothing worse. What's actually going on there? Well, alcohol is a stressor. I mean, and it's not that stressors are bad. I mean, exercise is a massive stressor. It's one of the biggest ones you can experience. More free radicals are generated from exercise than anything. But it's how quickly you can recover from that stressor. and how frequently you're exposed to the stressor.

And it's like overtraining. They're not fully recovering by the time they get to their next workout. And so it's actually a negative effect that they'll get. Alcohols like that, too. But alcohol, from what we've seen in the data, just prolongs the stress response. They get no sleep because they'll typically drink in the evenings. And then they'll sleep where you're supposed to have the highest heart rate variability,

so you're getting recovery of the system during that, and their heart rate variability tanks for the. whole night. So then they wake up the next day and they haven't had that period of recovery that's really beneficial. Yeah. So, I mean, it's interesting as I've gotten older. I don't like to drink in the night as much as I do. I was like, if I'm going to do it, I'd rather do it in the day so I can sleep better at night because I just sleep like shit every time I drink. Yeah, I think if you're going to have alcohol, probably, you know, a midday drink is probably the safest way to go and just maybe one or two days a week. I see so many people nowadays.

microdosing shrooms in capsules. Like they'll just take a capsule every single day, five days a week, seven days a week, and work. Are you seeing a lot of that? And would you, I don't want to say would you recommend it, but what are your thoughts on it? I work with a lot of entrepreneurs. I mean, that's, that's entrepreneurs and business executives are our main clientele. And psychedelics are ubiquitous in that community. And there's a lot that we'll do microdosing. And psilocybin is one of the coolest things when you look at the brain and what happens with the brain. What happens? Tell us every detail. The interconnectivity and the brain just goes crazy. So, you know, we have brain areas that routinely communicate with each other, but these areas

are also blocked off from communicating with other areas of the brain. When you're on psilocybin, you look at interconnectivity on an EEG, it is just massive. I mean, I've never seen anything like this. it just goes crazy. Ketamine does the same thing. And you're getting this just incredible connections that are occurring in the brain. That's why people have such great ideas when they're doing microdosing

or Steve Jobs used to do LSD on a regular basis just to get ideas that were out of the box. And a lot of entrepreneurs actually do that. They utilize these in a very productive way in that microdosing. and with microdosing a psilocybin, you don't get actually any psychogenic effect. You get the benefits of the interconnectivity and neuroplasticity where you can improve learning and memory with it, but it doesn't give you any psychological distortions.

Does it do anything negative to the brain? For instance, like, I know there, like methamphetamine is like horrible for, your brain. Is that how these things that you're talking about are? Are there any downsides? There was like MDMA, you look at it and they talk about neurotoxicity, but most of the neurotoxicity studies were based on, and this is because they got scheduled one. They couldn't do the research. The research was based on. How many years of research do you think we lost during that gap? Oh, we lost 15, 15 years, 20 years of research because it didn't really come back into play until 2011, 2012. But the MDMA research was the big study that showed

the neurotoxicity was based on these recreational users. I think it was in Finland. And they were using up to 600 milligrams a week on average. And they were using other drugs on top of it. So it wasn't well-designed study. And that was the best they could do. And they said, oh, well, 20% of them got neurotoxicity or they got these heart valve disorders, which it's very common in drug abusers is heart valve disorders. So you can't really attribute it directly to the MDMA. And when you look at the maps research, they're not showing those neurotoxicity effects at all. So it sounds like what you're saying, just layman's terms, is that MDMA that they were looking at was the ones that were laced with all the things that you were saying that people were using it for a party drug? Yeah, they didn't have,

they didn't have a controlled mix of the MDMA. they also didn't have any control over what the person was taking in addition to it. And so it was just kind of an observational study, but there were too many variables in there to really make any conclusions from it. If you were to predict the future with all of this, where do you think this is going to go? Do you think that mushrooms are going to become legal? Do you think DMT is going to become legal? What's your thoughts?

Yeah, I think mushrooms will follow along the lines of cannabis. MDMA will probably go to only being dispensed, within the clinics is my interest. Which may not be a bad thing, actually, for that. Right. Well, it can and can't. I mean, because you're going to get a lot of clinics that pop up like these ketamine clinics that just kind of run people through and really don't do the integration work with them.

MDMA really requires a lot of therapy intervention when you're using it in a medical context. We asked the audience some questions. They had questions for you. One of them was, what is the fuck? Five health staples, according to you. Five health staples. So I'm a complex systems guy, so everything's on the same par. But sleep, nutrition, exercise, love and purpose.

Good answer. Oh, my gosh. In that order. No, they're equally across the board. When you use the term, you used it earlier, anti-fragile. I know that different people use that term for different things, but what is your definition of anti-fragile as it pertains to our overall? overall health? So antifragile to me is that there's the robust person who can go into like a COVID

experience and they can take a hit but then they bounce right back and they move forward. An anti-fragile person will take the hit but their system will emerge with a new property that makes them stronger coming out of it. And that's our goal is to create people that are anti-fragile that when they're faced with adversity from a physical, emotional, whatever it is, that they actually come out stronger than they went in. Oh, that's so good. I love that. And in your practice, I imagine, you know, you're seeing all sorts of people, but are people coming you with specific illnesses or issues to try to apply an anti-fragile approach

or to try to come out of those? Say, I come to you with a specific illness. Like, how are you helping those people? Well, the first thing we do is we dispelior. with anything specific. So we don't want to stovepipe anybody because a lot of people come in, oh, I just need to lose weight. Well, it's not a matter of nutrition and exercise. There's a whole host of things.

I mean, it's their individual genetics. It's their sleep patterns, their life purpose, their relationships. All of that has to do with it. So what we do is they'll come in and they'll say, you know, I really want to lose weight or I want to resolve my diabetes. But we just immediately get them off of the focus of that and focusing on just getting healthy in general, bringing the system into homeostasis, then moving it into optimized and then even enhanced beyond that point where we don't even use diagnostic codes in our clients. So people will come in and say, oh, I'm diabetic. I'm like, no, you're not diabetic. You have insulin resistance that's requiring medication.

That's fine. But you're not really diabetic. It's not really a disease. It's a spectrum of insulin resistance that you have. And when they lose that label, it makes it so much easier for them to move forward. When we're working with weight loss and they're not focused on weight loss, they lose weight without a problem. So it's a matter of really getting them focused on just becoming a generalized healthy.

Have you read James Clear's book, Atomic Habits? It's pretty popular right now. A while ago, yeah. Yeah. And he talks about labels and how they can serve you or not serve you. He says, like, if you label yourself as I'm a healthy person who does a fitness activity every day, then that becomes part of your identity when you do it. But to your point, the reverse, you say, I'm an unhealthy person that constantly needs to lose weight.

It actually works against you and makes it harder. Right. Yeah. I definitely, we use a lot of the NLP logic and words have a lot of power with people. And so we're very meticulous about what we use when we're talking with clients. What are some micro successes that you see every day? For instance, someone cured this or someone doesn't have anxiety anymore or they got out of postpartum. What are some little things that you see that are benefiting your clients? I don't, we have such a progression because they'll resolve something and we'll move on and we'll move on and we'll move on. So throughout the year, it's always what's next. What's next? The biggest metric that we have is what we call the quality of life inventory, which looks at their rating. of where the importance of like community, love, family, work, money,

and they rate themselves where they think they are in that after they've rated how important it is. And it gives them a score. And what we see is every year with our clients, we have huge improvements in their quality of life inventory. And that's the metric that we love to see because that's what's important is the life experience. How, How is someone experiencing life? And if we can improve the way that they're experiencing life, whether it be physical, emotional, mental, whatever it is, that's a win for us. You talk about aging backwards. Does that play into that concept?

Well, we're working on that. I mean, that's one of my big areas of interest is age rejuvenation. You look great, by the way. Thank you. I was going to tell you that. When we walked in, you look great. Thank you. Yeah.

It was a wake-up call for me when I was 39, and I'd been working as a surgeon, and my stress level was through the roof. I didn't sleep at night because I was on call every night. I was one of the busiest surgeons in the town I was in, and I would eat pizza every day. I drank a 12-pack of Mountain Dew regular every day, and I exercised. So it wasn't overweight, but I wasn't fit. I wasn't healthy. And I got my telomeres tested, and I was 10 years older than my chronologic age. And I was just a wake-up call.

And that's when I made plans to get myself out of surgery. Even though I loved it, it was just not healthy. And so I made plans to move on into this health optimization practice that we do now. And over the years, I've been able to really slow that loss of the telomeres down, quite a bit. And that motivated me to start looking at anti-aging therapies. And the problem with anti-aging therapies is there's a lot of them that are out there right now, some really effective ones, but they don't have longitudinal studies. And so we're not going to get this approval for age rejuvenation in any of these for a long time. So we have to look at what we can put

together to create a response. And it's fine. If you want to wait for the longitudinal studies, that's fine. You're going to be dead by the time you find out whether they work or not. But a lot of our clients are really interested in using sense-making therapies, looking at medicine from a sense-making standpoint, rather than from a, oh, this is what the research shows, because research is typically biased in many ways. We have this bias in our office that has all these different biases that can occur. It's just this big map of them. And so we try to identify biases in anything that we see and almost every study has some form of bias with it. I mean, it's why you see in the same week, fish oil is great for you and then fish oil does nothing for you.

Or like, meets good for you, meets bad for you. Right. And they can show great P values on their research and say, oh, statistically, this is... Sounds like they do the same thing with drugs. They do. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's, you know, the drug company is one of the big things that they like to do is they'll do their own research, but they'll do like 40 studies and they'll pick like three that they want to publish. They won't. That's so fucked up. anything with the other studies. How do you get away from these, from these biased studies?

What can be done? You can just look at them from a sense-making standpoint. I mean, that's what we do. But like the general consumer who doesn't have access to, I mean, I guess we all do if we look into it, but that doesn't see what you see on a daily basis. And we're getting fed this information. How do you go about educating yourself and really consuming content and consuming studies that will actually point out the truth? Well, you can either do a ton of reading or you can find somebody who actually does that part for you as and not as an individual but as a team. That's why we do whiteboarding. I have PAs that I've trained on my team and nurse practitioner, but we sit down and they'll

tell me, no, I don't think that's the right way to go. I'm like, okay, why? And we just, we work through it. We determine why something's there or somebody will say, hey, I just read this study on this, you know, GLP1 for weight loss. which is a new peptide that we're using called the brand one we use is called OZemPEC. But it's pretty amazing with the weight loss effect with this stuff. And so it's a peptide.

So it's a pretty safe intervention to use. And we're getting great results with it. That was something that somebody brought up one time. They had read the study on it. And we were just like, oh, well, let's look into that. So we looked into it. And we decided to add it as part of our arsenal. What a cool career.

I mean, gosh. Oh, I love it. Yeah, you must be so. That's purpose. It sounds like you just love what you do. I do. If someone's working with you, is it over a year? You mentioned a year.

Is it two years? Is it forever? How does it usually work? Or is it different? It varies. I mean, I've got some clients that have been with me 16, 17 years that just keep going. So what does that look like if you're with you for 16 years? Are you doing different things all the time?

Like, what does it look like? I only work with people that are moving forward. So if they say, I'm good where I am, and I say, okay, you don't need me anymore. You can check in with me occasionally, and that's fine. I'm not going to do the aggressive care. When I do care with a client, it's to get the needle moving and keep it moving. And there's not an end point. I mean, the journey is ongoing.

So there's always something that we can improve upon. Are you working with, and I'm sure you are, any entrepreneurs that you've seen just flourish with this? Can you give us, obviously you can't say names, but just like an example of someone who's just really taken this and ran with it and they're moving forward? Yeah, well, I mean, I have one social media marketer that's been with me for a long time, but he came to me and he was really leery because he had gone to a bunch of, a bunch of other doctors that just did these huge tests. Their food allergies, their stool analysis, you know, stuff that really wasn't relevant. And he came to me and he said, you're not. you're not going to damage my wallet, are you? And I was like, only with what you're paying me is what you're going to get. And so I worked with him. And in the year, he came in, he was like,

I think he was like 28% body fat. He put on 20 pounds of muscle, lost 30 pounds of body fat, and got down to around 9% body fat at a year. And that's great from a physical standpoint. But on top of that, he got his black belt in jujitsu. He just three-exed his business big time. And he was sleeping better. He also had a child during that time, another child. So, I mean, he had all this stuff that could have just derailed him. And he just got stronger.

He was the anti-fragile. He got stronger with each of these things that happened. The business took a hit, and then he would come out of it doubling what he had done before. So it was just amazing to see all the aspects of that. anti-fragile state being expressed in him. Is this something that you can do as a couple, or do you recommend it individually? We have quite a few couples we work with. It doesn't work well if one of the people come and they have really great success and they

convince the other one to come. And we typically won't do that. So it's got to be, and I interview everybody that is a potential candidate for us. And mindset is a huge piece of it. And if it's like, oh, well, I saw my husband do really well. I thought I might try it. That's not happening. It has to be something that you want for yourself individually. Yes.

Wow. That's really cool. I feel like that interview was full of so much value. If you were to recommend a book, a podcast, or a resource that someone could go seek out that has more information on this, what would it be? On which topic? I mean, we talked about so many things. If they want to learn a little bit more about psychedelics. If they want to learn about psychedelics, if they want to learn a little bit more about peptides and anti-agia. all of, like, I guess let's start maybe with psychedelics, because that's what we dove in to

first, then we can maybe. A great book to just give you a historical background. Brian Morescu, you guys interviewed him yet. He wrote the immortality key. It's talking about the history of psychedelics and religion and creating Christianity. Amazing book. The love drugs by Earp really an amazing thesis on this, and it's just saying, you know, we have all these drugs that we use. And we've got this one drug that is really spectacular drug. I mean,

what's better than having a loving relationship in your life? But we'll prescribe SSRIs, which are anti-love drugs all the time and not blink an eye with it. Huh. That's so interesting. Like antidepressants, you mean, right? Yep. That makes a lot of sense what you're saying. This was so interesting. I love what you do. This is so cool. Where can everyone find you? Pimp yourself out. Your book. Pimp me out. So it would be to go to our website, Appear on A-E-I-R-O-N-Z-O-H.com. So appear-on-Z-O-H.com. So Appear-on-Z-O-N-E. Cool. We're going to link everything out. We'll help you out. We're going to link everything out. Thank you so much for coming on. Come back anytime. I feel like we could have asked you 100 more questions. It was a pleasure. I love that. I think this was a good entry point into this subject because I think, listen, like there's so many, there's so much misconception around it. And especially if you're just hearing the word drugs and psychedelics, then all of a sudden you have your own judgments on that without actually understanding the world that is all these things. And listen, I think that's going to change. Obviously, Maps is doing a lot of research and there's a lot of great stuff coming out. Just like anything else. People need to get informed. Yeah, absolutely. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Wait, don't go. I have a fun giveaway. This is one of the most fun giveaways. I am giving away an ice queen

facial oil to one of you. All you have to do is tag a friend on my latest Instagram at Lauren Bostic. Tell him to listen to the skinny confidential him and her podcast. We want to grow the community. Super easy. I hope you love this episode and we will see you on Monday. Cheers.