The Bossticks - How India Oxenberg Survived Life Inside A Sex Cult - The NXIVM Cult & It's Downfall

Episode Date: February 8, 2021

#329: On today's episode we are joined by India Oxenberg. is an American film producer, writer, actress, and television personality. A granddaughter of Princess Elizabeth of Yugoslavia. From 2011 to 2018, India was involved in NXIVM, an American multi-level marketing company that was later exposed as a sex cult. In this episode India discusses how someone could be exposed to a cult and eventually join and how she was able to escape and ultimately survive as the cult was exposed and taken down.  To connect with India Oxenberg click HERE To connect with Lauryn Evarts click HERE To connect with Michael Bosstick click HERE Read More on The Skinny Confidential HERE For Detailed Show Notes visit TSCPODCAST.COM To Call the Him & Her Hotline call: 1-833-SKINNYS (754-6697) This episode is brought to you by Phexxi Phexxi® (lactic acid, citric acid, and potassium bitartrate) Vaginal Gel 1.8%, 1%, 0.4% is a hormone-free, prescription birth control used only before sex. Phexxi works to maintain the vaginal pH level to prevent pregnancy and you only use it when you need it! Be sure to tell your healthcare provider if you have a recent history of 3 or more UTIs per year. Learn more, including all risks at Phexxi.com This episode is brought to you by No Days Wasted Their hero product is called DHM Detox, which is the vitamin for people who like to enjoy their drinks. It's designed to help you bounce back the next day. Get 20% off your order and free shipping in the US. Just head over to www.NoDaysWasted.CO/SKINNY and use promo code "SKINNY" at checkout This episode is brought to you by Wanu Water Wanu water (water + nutrients) is the first-to-market, best-selling nutrient-infused water packed with 10 essential vitamins including 24% of your daily fiber intake providing natural energy that boosts your metabolism, supports a healthy immune system and quenches your appetite while you hydrate. Produced by Dear Media 

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Welcome to the skinny confidential, him and her. So they really sold me on that this was going to be the stepping stone that was going to take me to the next level of my life. What I didn't realize was that the more I committed to the coaching path, the more I was losing the rest of my life. Happy Monday, everybody. Welcome back to the Skinny Confidential Him and Her Show. That clip was from our guests of the show today. India Oxenberg, and on this episode we are diving into the world, the crazy world of cult, specifically Nexium. Many of you may be aware of India from her documentary that she put out seduced inside the Nexium cult.

This episode goes all over. We really dive deep and to figure out how somebody could be involved in a cult, how it could start to happen, what goes through the mind, And who better to interview than somebody who actually lived it like India. For those of you that are new to the show, my name is Michael Bostic. And I'm here today with my co-host, Lauren Everts Bostick. Yeah. Today I'm Bostick. The other day, not so much.

Gemini, people. Gemini. I am so excited to be in studio with India because not only does she really expose this cult as a sex cult, she also published a book called Still Learning. And it's a memoir. Really, really cool if you want to learn more about cults. Before this interview, I started learning more and more about Colts. I watched her documentary series.

I also read Rose McGowan. I hope I'm saying her last name right. It's called Brave. And she wrote a book about Colts too. So I'm sort of diving into this topic, exploring it. If you guys have anyone that you want us to interview about this subject, always let us know. Drop into our DMs. And what I think's really crazy and why I'm happy that we had this conversation is I think from the outside when you hear Colt and you look at something like Nexium, immediately you start to pass judgment on.

on these people and like, how could they get involved? Who would ever do this? But after talking to India, you realize it's a lot of really normal people that kind of just slowly over time get caught up in something and they may not even realize they're caught up in it. And so I think this conversation really humanizes India, it really puts a perspective that this could pretty much happen to almost anybody if their guards down and they're, you know, and they get involved in something like this. So it's also a warning tale to people that may, you know, maybe something like this is happening similar in your life and you could look at it and be like, oh, it's, it's, it's not. not as hard to fall into these things as people think.

Yeah, I talk about in this episode a story that I have about a cult. We get into that and how the cult leader belined for me after a presentation. So we talk about that story too. I think you guys are going to love this episode. India is so open. She's smart. She's beautiful. And she really tells it how it is.

So with that, let's welcome India. She is an American film producer, writer, actress and television personality to the skinny confidential, him and her show. This is the skinny confidential, him and her. So obviously, as you guys heard, we have India and Studio. We're so excited to have you here. Before we get into everything, can you give us a little peek inside your childhood, how you grew up? Go way back.

Okay. So I was actually born and raised right around here where we are recording this podcast. And I grew up as an only child for the first couple years of my life. My dad wasn't in the picture, but I was really just my mom. like partner in crime as a child. And so for me, like, I thought my mom lived in a trailer when I was a little kid because she was always on set. And I loved the trailers because they were tiny. And I could like steal craft service and hide in the trailer and no one would know. And I was like, this is so cool. Then cut to, I'm in elementary school in freaking Beverly Hills. And they were like, India, you don't live

in a trailer. You live here in Beverly Hills. And I was like, oh, okay. My life was not conventional. but I also was always kind of like on the fringe of being an LA kid and not being an LA kid. Like for me, my happy place was more the mountains and kind of being in nature. And so I always felt like a little bit on the outs, but kind of also familiar with the territory, if that makes sense. So you had a really close relationship with your mom. And as you're growing up, you guys like were you just best friends? It was, yeah, actually, it was kind of like best friends, but also like, sisters. Okay. And my mom had two other daughters later with my stepdad, Gaspard Van Dene,

and they're like my babies. We're 10 and 12 years apart. So I got an expanded family, but it came later on. And I was so excited about it because up until that point, it had just been my mom. And I was used to that. But the idea of having a family and siblings and a dad that was there was all kind of fantasiful for me. And so that's kind of where my life transitioned. to and then you were talking about school and I'm dyslexic. So traditional education was always quite challenging for me. And a big area of anxiety. I just thought I was dumb because I couldn't read until I was probably nine. Wow. What was that like? Stressful. Because when you're a kid, it's just an adult. It's so easy to look around and compare yourself to everybody else and be like,

what's wrong with me because I'm not there rather than what's different about me that I'm here. And so like that's kind of been my journey with education and with school because I love to learn. So when as you become closer and closer to your mom as you grow up, we see in the documentary that you guys join this together. Like it was a thing you did together. Yes. Is that, were you guys still best friends at this point or had your relationship changed? Like what was your relationship like when this happened? It sounded like the intention of your mother was obviously to bring you guys closer, right?

And that was my intention too. And the reality of that is I was 19 years old. So I definitely had my typical mother-daughter BS that we all go through. And we're all used to the varying degrees of that. And when you're a teenager, it's like, exacerbated. So I went to school in Boston for a year. And I realized that that wasn't for me. So I came back home to California. And I was kind of lost and aimless at that point. So I was relying on my mom for a little bit of guidance. Then a friend of ours who we trusted And this is that friend that kind of refers you to everything. And I think we all have one.

Oh, you got to go to my girl. Yeah, you got to go to my girl, whether it's nails or food or hair, or this was the personal growth version of that. Is this no longer a friend? No. No longer a friend, not an enemy, just not in our lives right now. Sure, sure. But she invited us and she was super gung-ho.

And so I just turned to my mom and I was like, what the hell? Let's just go. So I got in the car with her. We drove to an intro presentation that was in Santa Monica. And I, like I said, I was kind of in that space where I was really open and I was really looking for some structure and some guidance because I was feeling pretty aimless, just in general. And so when Sarah Edmondson and Mark Vesente started giving their testimonials and explaining what executive success programs was ESP, the consumer product of nexium that they sold to people, I was like, wow. And what is that just for people that don't have contact? Yeah, so Naxium was the overarching company, and they had a whole bunch of sub-companies underneath them, one of which was called ESP, and that's Executive Success Program.

And it's kind of like executive coaching, personal growth. They pulled from a lot of their... It's like Tony Robbins-esque type motivation. Yeah, like in that same vein. But this one was proposing itself as scientific, which we later found out was not to throw my boy Tony in there, but just... Right, right, right, yeah, yeah. You get the vibe. And there was a bunch of really legitimate people in the room, like recognizable people,

and I stink at recognizing people and I even notice them in the room. Like, there was a certain level of credibility that my guard was already down. And so the more that they started to speak and share about what this product was, I was like, this is exactly what I need. I need to get rid of these old fears from my childhood in the past so I can actually go forward with my life. I thought that they really had the answer for me. So they're promising you that you're going to let go of all your fears and anything that was negative that happens in your childhood. That sounds like heaven.

Mm-hmm. Also sounds like a magic pill. So red flag right there. So looking back on the first day that you were there, what were some really strong red flags that you now see as manipulation? For one, if people are telling you this is going to change your life, that's a, you. red flag. Just question it. It doesn't mean that they're wrong or bad or anything. It's just like this over enthusiasm to go in a direction that you're not already headed should be something that I would have questioned, but I didn't because I didn't know to. And I just assume that I could trust

and kind of go with the flow of things rather than being that person that's like, what are they even talking about? Because I wasn't there to question them. I was there to learn. So I was already in a kind of an offensive position. And what was your mom's, like, reaction to all this? Different. Different. And that's why I know that it worked better on me in that moment. Because my mom was in her 50s at that point. She had her children.

She had a career. She's a mother. She's, you know. Very successful actress. Yeah, she's an actress. She's got a life. And she wasn't looking for somebody to tell her what to do. So her first reaction was, okay, I've seen this kind of spiel before.

Right. But if my kid wants to spend five days with me, I'm not going to pass it up. Oh. So your mom was like, oh, we can like bond. Yeah. That makes total sense. Exactly. Because can you have?

Well, that's what I took from it when I watched it because I told you I got sucked in and I was watching. I was like, it looked like to me, your mom looks like a lovely person. Like she just wanted to spend time with you. I was like if this makes my daughter happy and if this gets us to bond, like that was kind of her intention. Is that correct? Yeah.

Like, I mean, I would like to think that most parents would like to bond with their teenage children and the opportunity that they get. And what is the price that they're saying that this is? So at that point, I think that they were selling it for $2,500 for a week, like five days of coursework with a 20% discount. It was like really jazzy. And I was like, okay, chill, back up. I don't like hard sales pitches. But I was already really looking forward to spending this time with my mom, but also really looking forward to what they were promising, which was, like,

like what you said, this kind of feeling of heaven, like being separate from all the things that bombard us on a regular basis. It sounds like they're selling, well, they say they're selling peace of mind. See, Lauren, when we first got together and I said, this is going to change your life. You should have recognized the red flag. You manipulated me. That's a five years later. It's a different story. But I imagine your guard must have been down. I mean, and I think, and I don't if you can make a comparison, but I was watching also something, I'm going to reading this author that wrote about Scientology. And I think he did the documentary on HBO. But it's, you know, you go in and you see these well-known figures and names there. And so immediately, I imagine that's like, oh, okay,

like they're successful. They're a known person. Your guard has to go down by a ton if you see those types of people. Quick break because I need to discuss birth control. I've recently had so many DMs from women all over the world asking for more resources and information and discussion around birth control. So I learned recently that there are more than 21 million women who are not using hormonal birth control, and I'm one of them. But now, the FDA recently approved a birth control option that's completely hormone-free. You guys may have seen me talk about this on Instagram already, so it's called fexy. And it's this combination of lactic acid 1.8%, citric acid, 1%, potassium biotrate, 0.4%. It's this vaginal birth control gel that comes in a small applicator, like a tampon, and it works

immediately and can be used up to an hour before sex. So basically you apply the gel before you have sex and only use it when you need it. But you have to apply it again before each act of vaginal sex. So when you try, remember, one dose, one hour, one act. And I have to tell you guys how it works because it's insane really. Like I kind of geeked out when I learned this. And you know me, I had to overshare. We're going to go there. Normally without fexy when a guy comes and semen enters the vagina, it causes the pH of your vagina to increase, which allows sperm to keep swimming and make their way up there to fertilize your egg. Are you listening, Michael and Taylor? So Fexe works by maintaining the vaginal pH to a level that reduces the mobility of the sperm, reducing the

chance of the sperm reaching the egg. How awesome is that? While Fexe could be a great option for many women like me who are seeking hormone-free birth control, it isn't right for everyone. So be sure to tell your health care provider if you have a recent history of three or more urinary track infections per year. And obviously, as with any new birth control, be sure to check for any ingredients in Fexe you or your partner may be allergic to. The most common side effects reported by clinical trial participants are vaginal burning, itching, and yeast infection. Some male partners also reported local discomfort. And remember, Fexe only works when used before sex and it doesn't protect against STIs, including HIV. To learn more about Fexe, ask your health care provider and visit

at fexy.com for complete product information. That is p-h-e-ex-x-I-com. And Michael, don't pop a boner. I feel like that's how it is for most things. And I, being 19 at the time, why was I going to go and question all of these adults who clearly have their shit together way beyond what I had? So I wasn't like what I said, I wasn't in a position to question, which is also a red flag. Like, why did I feel that way? was immediately in a situation where I was kind of taking a back seat. The friend that recommended you, does she get commission? Yes.

Ah, okay. I want to talk about this because I don't think people realize this referral thing with things like this. And MLMs, and they're a big problem. It's a big problem. I remember when I was probably 22 years old, a girlfriend of mine called me and said, I just had the most transformative experience. I need you to come tomorrow night and see this presentation. Yeah, I have goosebumps.

And so I really didn't want to go. I remember being like, fuck, I don't want to go. But I wanted to support her feeling she had this transformation. So I went and she had six other friends there. So she had called and done the same thing. And I remember. I've seen this spiel. You've seen the spiel.

I've done this spiel. I remember being in the room and there was hundreds of people. And I remember this guy like preaching on this podium. And I remember thinking, what a load of shit? What is happening? Like, how was everyone so manipulated? He could tell that I thought that. He came up to me.

There was hundreds of people in the room, you guys. He comes up to me at the end. He beeline for me. And he tried to sit with me and convince me, and I'm just calling it out. This was landmark for him. He tried to convince me to join. And I remember thinking, there's something in the pit of my stomach that doesn't feel right about this. And also, I think it was like $5,000.

And I was like, I'm going to pass on this. Anyway, the reason I tell the story is because that's just like adding, like, it's a cautionary tale. Yes, it is. It is. And it happens, like, you said, all the time. It's so smooth and it's so slick. I, like, don't like to terrify people and be like, don't trust your friends because that's not what we're saying. What we're saying is that sometimes your friends don't even know what they're really referring you to.

And oftentimes, there's one person who's getting commission and the other people are working for free. Like, for instance, in Nexam, I did not make money. But there were people above me who recruited me, who continued to recruit me into other trainings who were profiting. Okay. And it sounded like in Nexium, you get the sashes, right? Okay, so I told you I went deep here. You get the sashes.

And I think in the documentary, once you get a certain level or color of sashes, then you can actually start earning and making a living and becoming like counselor. And it reminds me in a certain way, you know, like when people go up, like, if you wanted to build community and you wanted to get people feeling best. then like obviously they're and then you build a ranking system to make people feel like they're progressing like it just gives you this all rigged yeah but you give this release of serotonin to people like wow like I'm progressing I'm moving forward like I'm getting rewarded and it's like this endless cycle and that's why these large group awareness trainings like what you're referring to are dangerous

because they change they can change your mind and they can change the way that you feel emotionally which will change the way that you make decisions and that's the thing that you're that I didn't realize at the time that I very much wished that I did was that the more I got into this group and the more that I was groomed and indoctrinated to believe the things that they were teaching, I wasn't myself anymore. And I know that sounds really weird because we don't think that we can lose ourselves, but anyone who has been in like a either abusive relationship or a toxic work environment or even a coercive high control group knows that they were not the same as when they left. Things have changed. And that's what has taken me so long to try to

unpack and figure out. That's what I've been doing for these past couple years. That was like part of why I decided to do seduced or even write a book was to figure out like, what the fuck happened to my brain? I didn't think of myself as a stupid person who foolishly says yes to everything. But how did that happen? And that's what I wanted to make sure was really clear and very detailed in the docuseries. For someone, and I want to go through your whole story, but just for someone who is maybe being approached by a friend asking them to come to this or life changing this, would your reaction to be to go like I did and just say, oh, this isn't for me? Or would your reaction to be to stay the fuck away? Oh, that's a really good question, because it just depends on

where you're at emotionally. Because like, say we all have good days. I have bad days. We all do. And there are some days where I am more influential, like where I am more susceptible, where I'm more vulnerable to things, where I might just like overspend at the grocery store because I'm feeling uncomfortable. So I think it really is a matter of knowing yourself because I would say now I would probably say, oh, I want to go because I want to know. And I want to check out what my friend's doing so that maybe I could say like, hey, you might want to look at this. but I wouldn't shame them. That's like, that's the thing that is a big no-no because, in my mind, because people do these things with pretty well-intentioned overall and they're not trying to hurt you and they're not trying to manipulate you, but there are people who will.

I think, and I agree with you. I think most people go into these things with the intention of bettering themselves, finding community, wanting to improve and lie, all those things. How do you think, like, when it comes to cult, people get like so sucked into it and then actually start becoming leader, like, not. not the leader, but leaders of these organizations. How do I think that happens? What's the path that, because you got pretty high up there at one point?

I did. I did and I didn't. Like that's the thing that was weird about nexium is that they had a pretty solid, strong group of believers. And were those people, did they start or did they like? They started it. Okay. So they were all in it together when it started.

Yeah. And we're talking about like 90s after his first failed business or probably multiple failed businesses. But CBI was one of these. things that Keith Reneery created, which was very much like an Amway meets Costco, and it got shut down because it was illegal, the way that it was operating. It was like MLM. And so he just kind of did that, but with personal growth. And so it people have asked me a lot, like, do you think that it started off good and then just went awry or was it bad from the beginning?

And I think it was bad from the beginning because it was created by Keith, who's a predator. and he used these techniques and these businesses to prey upon people and to use them, either financially or sexually. So do you think Keith knows he's a predator? Do you think he's delusioned him, his own self? Delusioned. So he thinks that it's so interesting to me. What is that extreme narcissism then? Yeah, he thinks that he was working with good intention.

That's what he tells himself. I don't know what goes on in his head, but I think he's probably. buying his own bullshit because he believes that he did these things for good and he refuses to acknowledge that he actually really hurt people and he thinks that we're all lying. So that leads me to believe that he just doesn't have empathy. He can't feel for other people. What were some of the traits of Keith and these people that are higher up? Were there like common denominator traits? Like were they extremely charming, funny? Like what were the things that you saw now looking back. I guess one of the scarier things is that they became more and more like Keith

the longer that they were in the group. And I can even say that for myself. Like my way of thinking and seeing the world started to model more of what he was teaching. And all of his teachings came from his own beliefs. People are fragile. Like our minds are fragile and you're asking like, how does it happen? And I think it happens because we are fragile and there are people who are masters at manipulating. Like you said, that guy, he saw you in the group and he identified you because he knew you were resistant. It's not hard to read people if you're, like, aware, let alone manipulate them if you're aware of how to manipulate people. And there are people who know how to do this. I think there are events, and I use a Tony Rob's example, but there's so many others. And, like,

I think a lot of, some of these guys are actually great and, like, are there to inspire people. But you go to these events and what I observe and what, you know, is sometimes caught in some Blackfor is saying like you can recognize that the majority of people that are in these events are, I don't want to say broken people, but there are people that are looking for answers and looking to find ways to change their life. So immediately they're already in this state where it's like, I'm just going to accept what you give me because I need something different. Totally. And if you're coming, if you're someone that comes in as a friend or whatever that's not looking for that, obviously your energy is a lot different because you're not looking for those things. You're already

fine. There's just maybe in a case of your mother. Right. And me for that instance. So it's much easier to kind of mold those people to a new way of life because they're already questioning the way they were living previously. Exactly. And if you have somebody who's unethical who is aware of that, they can take you wherever they want. Wait, hold up. We are going to talk about fiber water. Well, Wano water specifically. So Wano water has water and nutrients. And it's the first to market best selling nutrient infused water. It's packed with 10 essential vitamins, including 24% of your daily fiber intake. Okay. People are going wild for this online. I'm telling you it has like a cult following because you get all this fiber

in a bottle of water and it has energy to boost your metabolism, support a healthy immune system, and quenches your appetite while you hydrate. My thing is that I saw this obsession for Wano water, so I wanted to have the founders on the podcast to discuss all the details. And what we learned is that the amount of fiber in one bottle of Wano water is equivalent to consuming two bananas when it comes to fiber. So you should also know the fiber is zero calorie. And the one that I like is called the Peach Passion, and we did make Peach Passion fiber-infused margaritas on the show, and you guys, it was so good. So here's the recipe. We did two ounces of tequila over ice. Then we put some sparkling water on top and then topped it with Wanoo water for a little peachy buzz. And then you

can garnish with pomegranate seeds or lime or lemon or orange, whatever. It's so fun. And you're getting your fiber in while you drink. Lastly, and this is for all the moms out there. Their water is sugar-free, free of sugar alcohols, and naturally sweetened with a blend of monk fruit and stevia. Anyway, this is such a great way to sneak in vitamins and fiber. Try it over ice. Try it with tequila. I know you're going to love it.

Get creative with the recipes. And definitely check out their Instagram at Wanoo Life. All right, let's get back to the show. Can you give our audience a timeline of your experience in the cult? Like when you started and then how it changed as you were like in the middle of it and then maybe towards the end and when you started seeing signs, like can you give us the background? Yeah, it was 2011. I'm 19 years old at that point. That's when I first take my introductory training.

Then a couple months later, I'm asked if I want to be a coach. I'm like, no, because I grew up here in L.A. where there's all these coaches. And I'm like, that's not the career path I'm looking for. But they kept pressing me and telling me, you're so natural at this. This could be a practical MBA for you. You could take all of these lessons and put them into a catering business. So they really sold me on that. this was going to be the stepping stone that was going to take me to the next level of my life. What I didn't realize was that the more I committed to the coaching path, the more I was losing the rest of my life. So that's a red flag in itself that I thought, oh, I'm just individuating, so I'm spending less time with my family, or I'm just really busy, so I'm not seeing my friends as much. Or at one point I was like going on castings around here in L.A. and I just stopped doing all of that and I was solely focused on nexium. And that is a very similar trait to anybody who has been in a one-on-one coercive domestic abuse situation. All of a sudden, you're isolated. But I was

isolated with a community around me that was enforcing that I was on the right path. So that felt awesome. But that is gnarly. Yeah. Because that's a whole different level. Exactly. So imagine, like I like to use this example because it takes the average woman seven times to leave an abusive relationship. Now imagine that but with a group that's supporting these new ways of being. It's very difficult to question that because also I saw them as authority figures too. And so then from there I now like in my early 20s and I'm becoming a coach, I'm doing trainings, I'm doing all of this work for free, thinking that I'm learning and building skills, which I was learning things. But you can learn those things elsewhere and be paid and like it can be ethically dead.

And they weren't paying you for coaching? No, because it was like a mentorship in their mind. And so I'm just spending money on courses, on money that I don't have. So I'm taking out credit cards and making really bad financial decisions. And spending whatever savings I had for college on that. thinking that this was going to be my way out. And was your mom out of the program at this point? She was kind of in and out as a student, but was definitely not committed in the way that I was.

Okay, so you had like the new group of people that were growing with you. Yes, this new family that like feels really supportive and feels really exciting. And it's like I am now in my 20s and I'm individuating and all of that feels amazing. But at the same time, I'm not really getting anywhere. So I'm just spinning my wheels thinking that it's my problem, that I'm not progressing, not thinking that this is all very calculated strategies that high control groups use in order to move you in the way that they want. They'll stop you from growing in order to then redirect you. So five years in, after all this indoctrination, after all this grooming, after years of this education, I'm approached by Alison Messe. about DOS, which was the sub-secret sorority within Nexam that was supposed to be exclusively

women coaching. So at that point, I think I was 24. And once again, I had hit... You're still really young. Yeah, I'm still really young. And I had hit a really low point. And just personally, I've always kind of struggled with depression and anxiety. And so I was at an extra low point at that time in my life. And I was feeling like I'm not moving forward in ESP. And Allison was like excelling. And she was becoming a proctor, which was the sash that you could make money. She was starting a new business that had to do with acting, which was like really moving to her. And all of this stuff that I wanted for myself in my own way. So when she approached me and started to tell me a little bit about this program that she was in that had helped her so much,

I was really open to it. And I was like, I want that. Whatever you have, I want. And for context, who is Allison Mack for anyone who doesn't know who that is? Allison Mack is an actress. She's known for a TV show called Smallville, which I never watched. But I think a lot of people did. And she was in Nexium before I was. And she then created DOS with Keith Reneery and his other first-line DOS slaves that were directly under him. They created this program and then they recruited other women and kind of like a science experiment practiced these tactics on us and then reported everything back to Keith. And where was Keith?

What do you mean tactics? Like they were doing things restricted eating, so restricted sleep. physical challenges and punishments, branding, which eventually happened to us as well, and a series of other things that they were saying were like a boot camp, but for women to get stronger. So once again, they were using a lot of language, but ultimately it was kind of like butchered feminism because none of it really actually made sense. It was just kind of fragments that made sense that you could say, okay, I could accept that logic a little, or they would just have a justification for why you should just do it. And at this time, was Keith in your life and in

your sphere, or was he, like, still this, like, figure in the background that you're aspiring to one day, like, have more activity with or interaction with, I guess, a better word. Yeah, you know, at that point, he was, like, I never went to ESP for Keith. Like, I guess what I was trying to ask is, like, is he, like, is he puppeteering this? Oh, yes. Okay, he is. One hundred percent. He's puppeteering the whole thing and you have no idea. And he's on top of it, the way that he is protected in the community is through a lot of like internal propaganda. He doesn't have sex. He's a vegetarian. He doesn't make money or take money from any of his programs. This is all the things that. Basically they're saying like he's a monk and you should be lucky to spend time

with him. So already you have that in your head. This is like a reverential thing that you should be glad to meet him. But in the documentary, we see him kiss you guys on the cheek, and that gave me... Not just the lips, the straight... No, I went for the cheeks. If you could see...

You went for the cheek. But the people were going straight and for the lips. I know. So did you guys all think, huh, this is weird that he's like, they're making him this, like, version when he's not? For sure, but I also believe the bullshit

because I didn't have any other reason to not. At that point, I'm five years in, and nothing has happened with Keith. He's like maybe said hi to me who once or twice said volleyball or something. Like we don't have a relationship at that point. So cut to I've already given an enormous amount of collateral to Allison, which is blackmail, to be in this secret sorority. And they're telling you that you need to give continual blackmail in order to keep your words

so that you won't back out of things that are difficult. Like having, I don't know, like having a really intense personal trainer who then you say, if I don't show up to the gym, I have to pay you an extra $100. Like that was the way that they were posing collateral as. But in reality, it was just blackmail so that you didn't have the option to leave. So when did you start to, did you get into DOS and when did you start to like really get deep into it or it was consuming every day? There was no on or off switch for DOS. Like when I was in, it was on. But what is, are you seven days a week there?

And what are you doing? Yeah, actually, at first, so I didn't say yes right away to Allison when she approached me. I took about a month because I was nervous about it. I didn't know this woman very well. She was asking me for a really big commitment that was also super ambiguous. And I was feeling really fractured in my life. like I didn't really have anybody else to go to but her at that point. And so when I said yes to her, cut to a couple months later, I'm instructed by her to relocate to

Albany and to live with her. But I didn't know that an instruction had come from Keith and that it was all strategic and intentional. So then I'm living with Allison Mack and my life is totally saturated with DOS, with nexium, with practices, with reading and reading. writing and reporting and like a very regimented lifestyle. Can you give us like a day to day? Because for someone, I don't know what you mean. Like do you mean you wake up at six and you're like, what do you mean? Yeah. I'm trying to remember in my book I break down every, every detail of a couple

examples of days because sometimes it would be reporting from 6 a.m. wake up, do my morning check-ins with Allison. Report. I had to report my weight. every single day. I had to get on the scale and measure myself, then go and measure my food and my calories and report those calories to Allison, ask permission to eat them, and then eat. So my whole life was really more about what I can eat, when I can eat, how much energy I have to complete my tasks, and how I'm going to make sure that Allison is happy. So very little time to be objective. Let's talk about no days wasted, okay? We all, need a little support when it comes to having a couple of drinks so we can get back to feeling

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If you're not a fan of brain fog and you don't want to feel gross the next day, I'm telling you, when I took two capsules while I was drinking, I woke up, I was ready to go. I had a pep in my step. If you're having a real party night where like things, you're getting down, you know what I mean? You're dancing on tables, whatever you're doing. You can even double up and take two packets. It's up to you. Valentine's Day is around the corner for Michael and I, and we definitely plan on going out and having some red wine, maybe a bottle or two.

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How does Allison have time to act and do all this stuff when she's monitoring what someone else eats? Because she started to not. She started to only focus on DOS and a lot of her work was only coming from the company and she was being financially compensated for not only things related to DOS but things related to her work in Nexium. But there was, they meshed. So looking back, is she a predator?

Was she blackmailed or is it both? It's both. Yeah. But it's like, I guess it's, I guess that's why I made the Scientology analogy. It's like you get an Allison type person who's a known actress as a fan base. And then you bring her into the program and then you start compensating her. And it's like, what it does is it like validates it to everybody else. That's a known person who's got their shit together who's already successful.

Right. and like she is being treated than different than someone like you or any other person is because she's getting compensated and she's getting taken care of. And so she gets these perks. So maybe in her mind, she doesn't realize that it's not the same experience

for everybody else. The same way like maybe a Tom Cruise would not recognize that like Scientology is not the same for everybody else as it is for him. True. And you could say the same for me in a certain sense because I lived with Allison that I felt like that gave me a certain level of protection

almost that some of the other women might not have felt. And it was like, if I can just keep this woman pleased with me and happy and just clean her house and make her food and make sure that there's gas in her car and do my tasks and be friendly, then everything's going to be okay. At one point, did you ever question yourself and say, wait, this is weird that I'm weighing my food. This is weird, like this circumstance. Yes, but questions were not looked upon. Like, questioning came with a lot of punishment or just it just wasn't like what's a form of punishment there could be physical punishments and that would be like cold showers or more restricted calories or having to do long walks in the cold like there are a variety of things that were just

uncomfortable and just inhumane when somebody is forcing you to do those things like taking a walk in the cold by yourself is not a big deal like if you want to do it but being forced to do those things is not humane. And what is even more interesting is not only being forced, but you haven't had any food for fuel. Right. And you're sleep deprived. So it's like how weak can we get you? And that's the easiest way to manipulate someone is through food first. And it wasn't until after I left that I realized a lot of times pimps do this with prostitutes and they will control the way they eat. I even remember when I watched the R. Kelly documentary, how he used to ration food to them and ask, they would have to ask permission to come into the kitchen.

And I just, my mouth just dropped. And this was when I was already out and I was with my mom and back with my family. And I was having like a lot of PTSD. And those types of things just reminded me about the reality of the situation that I was in. And it gave me clarity, but it was also. really scary. Yeah, I'm sure. I'm sure. I want to ask about your relationship with your mom at this point. You said you guys were best friends growing up. You joined together. Yeah. And right now, like with the Alice and Mac thing, what is she thinking? She's not happy. She's not, she's starting to see that there's

cracks. And also the thing that I wasn't able to see that my mom was that I was lose, like my life was becoming smaller and smaller, whereas I thought it was growing and that I was expanding. That was not the case. Like my life was, I lived in Clifton Park. It's like a tiny little town in upstate New York, and I wasn't able to make enough money there. I was just living the life of a student, a student of nexium. And I was totally consumed by this cult. And my mom, was able to see that and I just thought, oh, she just doesn't like what I'm doing. I thought it was as simple as that. Like, oh, my mom's just not happy with my life choices. Not that she actually saw that this was a bigger problem.

Was there drugs or alcohol? No. Nothing. No. Wow. That's crazy. Yeah. It was actually like kind of looked down upon. So that's kind of been funny to reenter the world. So what do you think Keith's like overall intention was? I mean, it's obviously he's making money. Then he's like, what is like, what was the end goal for nexium for him? It was like to keep growing and growing and growing. I think it's actually even more diabolical because he is that crazy. And I think he thought that by creating DOS and by having nexium be this, air quotes, really powerful company, that he would be able to control politics,

that he would be able to control large amounts of money. He, it was all about power. So even when all of this was coming into the news and it was like sex cult, sex cult, sex cult, it's like it's not about sex. And that was something that I kind of had to learn when I came out of this group that really these types of people and these sorts of predators, it's more about power and control. Yeah, like the sex was part of the power trip. Yes. Like the Harvey Weinsteens, like the Jeffrey Absteens. It's all a very similar type of strategy.

It makes sense. Power is the number one thing. So when does this all start to unravel? And when do you start to say, like, wait a minute, like, this is, because going from self-improvement to branding, which we could talk about is obviously like a very accelerated. Also, in just playing off what Michael said, was there an epiphany where you woke up one day and you thought, wait, what the fuck is going on? I wish there was, but there wasn't until after I left. And how hard is it to leave? It's very hard. And I think I was actually one of the people that stayed in longer compared to many other. people who had left and a lot of really brave people left before me and they put their necks out

to make sure that there was noise being made and that people were becoming more aware of really what was going on inside of this group and I was still on the inside so I was looking at those people who also included my mother I mean there was a lot of people who laughed like they were utterly crazy like what are you talking about this is my stupid little boring life in Albany like leave me alone. Why are you causing so much trouble? Like, that's how I saw it from within the group. Additionally, it started to progress. And they were saying, your mother's a psychopath. She's trying to destroy us. She's trying to hurt you. She's trying to hurt your friends. And that was scary because I trusted these people, but I also knew that my mom wasn't really trying to hurt me. So it wasn't like I had an epiphany.

It was more that that question of, is this really real? Like, does it? Does it? Is my mom really trying to hurt me? I couldn't get down with that fully because I just knew too much. Like, this is my mom. This is my mom that loves me. But I also knew that maybe she was just confused and that this would all fade away once we realized each other's differences. Like, that's the simplicity of the situation. That's how I was seeing it at the time when I was still in the group.

It wasn't until after I left that I saw things and I was like, holy shit. They were right. Then how did you decide to leave? I think it was just instinct. You just woke up one day and you were like, I need to leave? There was two things. One, I wasn't able to get work when I was in Albany, and I needed money. And so I was kind of frantically trying to get jobs, but it wasn't happening.

One, because I think people were catching on to nexium and the group and my involvement. And so that was scary for me, and I ended up applying to like 20 different jobs. in New York City and was praying, like, okay, I really just hope that one of these works out so that I can have something that people can't just take away from me. Because at that moment, I thought my whole life was just falling apart, and I was losing everything that I had thought I was in control of, which I wasn't. So cut to, I leave Albany. I go to New York City. I had to ask Allison for permission to do that at that point. I was still very much in. And she said, yes. And I end up getting a job in the East Village. And I told my boss at the time, I was like, I know you don't know

me, but I'm a really, really hard worker. And I will even work for free for these first two weeks. And if you think that I'm worthy of pay and to join your team, like, please just give me a job if you think I'm worth it. And he was like, sure, free work, two weeks, great. So I worked my ass off. when I was working 14-hour days because I just wanted to disappear from my chaotic life. And I dove into working in food. And I kind of started to reconnect with the real world. And although I wasn't totally out at that point, it was helping me to distance myself. So then is this before you were branded or is this after you were branded?

After. This is after. This is after. and this is right around the time that Keith gets arrested in, he gets arrested in Mexico in March, and then April, Allison gets arrested. When Allison was arrested, I was still in New York. I'm still there working, trying to keep a job. Papparazzi's are like chasing me all over the East Village. It was really terrifying. I was just trying to go to work and be normal, and that wasn't happening for me very well. It was nerve-wracking. And when Allison was arrested, though, that was a moment

that like hit me really hard because I thought, holy shit, like, what's going to happen to me? It was like the first moment that I actually really felt afraid appropriately because through, I mean, this I'm cutting back, but through the indoctrination and through the tools that nexium used, they dismantled a lot of our feelings about things, our natural instincts, our gut feelings. And one of those things included like feeling fear appropriately. And so I wasn't afraid. It's so interesting, though, because it almost tricked you into thinking that you were a predator when you were actually a huge victim. And I couldn't see it.

And I couldn't even say that I was a victim. That is so crazy. Yeah. Yeah, you nailed it. It's like that's how twisted these things are and that's how twisted coercion is and gaslighting and all of these things that we're now learning about more and that I'm learning about more is that you do get to the point where you're, you don't believe yourself anymore, which is so sad. They try to take the intuition out. They try to remove the intuition.

Your grandmother seems like an interesting character. She seems like she wasn't having this. Oh, she was not. She was the best. What did she say? She was like, it's bull. She was like this bullshit, this fucking bullshit. She hated Nancy, hated Keith, thought he was a little crumbly troll.

I love. Grandma's, no. If you ever have a question, go to your grandma and ask like a compass. That's why we need like a new grandma podcast. We need a, you need to do a grandma podcast. I'm on it. I'm on it. When they branded you, is that like another sash? Is that like a level of like, oh my God, like you're so lucky?

Or is that something negative? No, it was more like the first thing. It was more a positive thing. Okay, so the way that it was spun for us was as if we were pledging and we were being loyal and we were going through this very difficult and painful thing to bond and to like go to the next level. of our commitment. Like that was the way it was proposed. Like, oh, Navy SEALs get tattoos together. It's really empowering. So a part of me was like, okay, I mean, like I have tattoos. I can get into that.

But I had never been branded. Like I had never experienced a cauterizing pen without anesthesia. So I had no fucking reference to what I was agreeing to. And I was actually the first woman that was branded by Dr. Danielle Roberts, who was in my group of four women underneath Allison. So there was no option for us to say no at that point. Like we were to compromise. We were collateralized. We were sleep deprived. Did you think, oh, she's a doctor? Yeah. And also, she was kind of becoming my friend. And so I believed what Allison told us, which was this is going to be like a bonding experience. This is going to bring you guys together. It's going to prove how tough you are. And it is a symbol of the elements that you're being branded with. And I was like, okay, sure.

I didn't have the option to say, nah, bitch, I'm leaving. Like, that wasn't going to happen. I mean, I can laugh about it now. But in that moment, I was really scared. And I couldn't express how afraid I was because that was not how you did things inside the group. I end up being branded, which takes about 30 minutes. And it was really painful. And it was really...

30 minutes of like from the time, like holding on you? No. So it's not like a... Not like a cattle brand. No, it's not like a cattle. Brand because I know some fraternities and sororities do that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I have a funny story about that, actually. You gotta be careful when you do that and you move. Remember when you've ever seen Jackass when they try to do the, yeah, and he moved and then it like went everywhere. Well, so that's why we were held down.

Because you can convulse and you don't, your body just reacts and nerves fire and you can move and it can really screw you up. So I was being held down with my hands and my feet by people who I had become really close to. And so it was like this out-of-body weird experience where I just remember watching myself and kind of like looking down and thinking, oh, this is going to be much bigger than what they told us because one, it was taking about 30 minutes and I could see that the line was going from like my side of my tummy all the way to my hip bone. And so. And it was, I'm sure it was. I'm sure it was It was very painful, but I couldn't process that pain. Like, I was on a lot of adrenaline. And I just remember kind of crying, but not feeling, not knowing why I was crying and feeling really mood, but not understanding why. And after I left, my mom and I, we had talked about this experience extensively. And for a while, I couldn't even talk about it without, like, getting too shaky. And she said that these types of ritualistic practices are very common in. in high control groups or just in abusive relationships or dynamics because it dehumanizes you.

And it is also a way to separate you from your body. So that's just like one more example of what they did. Also, I'm sure you're you were hungry and you're tired. And those three things together. Totally. It's like full mind control. You can see it. You can totally see how that was set up.

And I could also see how there were other women in the room. who resisted. And when they were resisted, they were met with a lot of violence and not always physical, but sometimes people don't need to be physically abused. They can be yelled at and it can be just as terrifying for them. It just depends on how you behave. Because some people reacted worse to physical violence, but were more moved by verbal abuse, like me, for example, whereas that could be the opposite for someone else. And they know that and they know how to use you. Did your relationship with Keith change throughout? Or was it always like you didn't talk to Keith and you only talked to Alison Mack?

No, it changed. So when I was instructed to move to Albany, I was also given the seduction assignment from Allison Mack, which I didn't know what that meant at the time. And she said, you are going to have to seduce Keith. We go into this extensively and seduced the dokey series, hence the title. but and it basically shows you the process of grooming and how this is just like one step closer to being used being used sexually or financially and for me it was a little it was a little bit of both in that sense but he's giving the order to her I have no idea so he know okay so he's wanting this to happen but he's but from your mind it's like you're to make you're doing the challenge

to try to get him even though he's even though he's already aware. So that's the part that was really difficult for me to figure out. And it took me a while to understand, like, why would somebody do that? And then I realized, oh, it's all for his own pleasure and desire. It's like, that's what he wanted. He wanted it to look consensual. Like, all these women were just coming to him, begging him to be with him. And I had no interest in being his girlfriend. During that seduction assignment, I remember thinking, oh, okay, great. Like the photograph is over. He's going to send it to Allison and then we'll be done.

And I thought that was going to be my biggest challenge. And I even remember thinking like the rest of DOS is going to be easy compared to this because it was scary. And he was someone who I looked to as a superior and an authority figure like a principle, not like someone who I was interested in going after. Wait, so you're told the whole time that he's this monk that doesn't have sex and this and that. And all of a sudden, like wasn't it like the wizard of all? where this is pulled off and he's exposed for what he is? Or did you, is it?

No, because he's still playing a role. So it's like you're seducing this monk that's this pure person. Right. And Allison's telling me he's the safest person that you can like do this on. He would never do anything bad to you. And I'm believing Allison because what am I supposed to do? Which Allison's relationship with him? It's like is she.

She is a direct slave of his. Okay. In the, in this master slave setup. up. So after that seduction assignment is completed, Keith proceeds to tell me that he's my grandmaster and I'm like, okay, like, what is that? Because I'm still coming to terms with what DOS is because so much of it was left out in the initial recruitment process, obviously. But my relationship with Keith changed after that tremendously. And I started to believe that he was really a friend. And so I opened up to him and I remember multiple walks just feeling like,

wow, this guy really gets me. I can share anything with him. But there was always a little bit of a hesitation because I knew there was no on-off switch for DOS. So he ultimately still had control over me, even though he was playing as if we were friends. So when did you start to move away? And when did that disconnect happen? That happened more. after Allison's arrest. So when I was living in New York City and working, and then towards that summer of 2018, I reconnected with my mom,

who I had not really had any communication with for about nine months, almost a year, actually. Wow. And so at that point, I meet my then-boyfriend, now fiancé, who's a chef at the restaurant. Congratulations. Thank you.

Where is he a chef? He's a chef for himself right now. He's a pizza. chef specifically. And so we have, we, we, sidebar, we just took a mobile pizza oven from Texas and brought it all the way back to L.A. to kind of test out. Why the fuck don't you make me pizza? Oh, God. That sounds so good. He's really good. He's studying in Italy. It's his passion. He's crazy about it. I never knew I would have so much pizza in my life, but I do. So I met him there, and he was just so kind with me and so caring, and he studied journalism in college.

And so his approach with me was so respectful. Like, I remember at one point we were talking, and he took me out for ice cream, and I start kind of like telling the story as if I'm trying to conceal a lot of parts of the story of my life because I was so embarrassed at that stage, and I was scared of people's, judgment of me and he just was like, no, I've read everything, right? And I was like, no, he's never going to want to date me. He's going to think I'm crazy. He's like going to think I'm fucked up, damaged goods, all of these things. And he said, yeah, I've read it all, but I really rather just hear from you. And I was like, wow, really? Like, you actually don't think I'm crazy

or you don't think I'm fucked up or this stupid like cult girl, whatever the headlines were at that point. And so I started to just kind of share with him and he really became my friend and my ally and he has stood by me through all of this and has been very supportive because he does not identify me with Nexium. What's so crazy to me is that the trauma that you went for is going to, or went through is going to help so many people. That's the coolest thing. What you've done with the trauma, you've used it as fuel and like you have this documentary and your book and your second book. I mean, that's so incredible. Thank you. Like, you must look back and you must say I really learned so much out of this and I can take so many tools and help other people. I certainly hope so. I mean, like, that's why I even called my book still learning because I have learned so much. I've learned so much about myself, so much about the world that I just didn't know. And I'm still learning a lot. And I want to continue to do this kind of work. And I've started to work with my mom on her foundation, which,

which is called the Catherine Oxenberg Foundation. And she started that even before I was out of Nexium and was providing therapy and resources for people who had left, even before I was out. And that just like, it's hard to even talk about it because it just shows like the type of woman that she is. And that even though I wasn't out, she still held hope and still was a security blanket for many people

who didn't have families to go to or anything. She sounds like an amazing. You and her have to come back on the podcast together when you launch your second book. What can we expect from your second book? And also can you leave us with some resources of anyone who is listening that may be in a cult-like atmosphere? Yes, of course. Like we talked about before we started, I am not a licensed counselor. I'm not a therapist.

I have gotten an abundance of messages. So many heartfelt messages from people who have been in similar and different situations. So for me, I think that rain is a huge resource for people, and I'm looking forward to working more with them. Fact, families against cultic teachings is huge. They offer therapy and grants to people, and I'm working with them as well. And then the Catherine Oxenburg Foundation is mine and my mom's, which is tiny, but we're trying to make it more robust because there are a lot of people out there who really do need

the right type of resources. It's not the same kind of therapist for everyone. So I know that therapy and healing is nuanced, and that's actually what I'm looking to write about in the second book is just kind of a roadmap and using my experiences. There's this really wonderful book that I'm very inspired by, and I would love to do an updated version of that and have it more for our generation. And I believe that philosophy through and through because I've experienced it myself and I've seen it with other people. people. And I knew that when I came out an axiom, I wanted to run away to the mountains, change my name, and say, like, F, everybody. I don't want to talk to anyone. But I really, like, had to sit with myself and say, like, this isn't going anywhere. Like, in order to get through this, I have to go all in. I have to go head

first. Because I just think that these things don't just disappear. They stay with you, or they manifest in a different relationship, where you get into another stupid. work environment where you're being used like it's better to just deal with it however uncomfortable it is and just so we can round out the story alison and keith are they in jail for good like what's happening there keith reneery was recently sentenced to 120 years in prison which was like a huge victory for us and i spoke at that sentencing and it was really really empowering good closure for me alison mac is still under house arrest she doesn't have a sentencing date yet And are they the only two that are sentenced or is there more?

No, Claire Brompton was sentenced to seven years in prison. And right now I think she's, you know, somewhere in a women's detention center and the East Coast. So those are the three. Then you also have Nancy Salzman, Lauren Salzman, Kathy Russell. There was, I think, seven co-defendants that Keith had, six or seven. But he's done. He's gone for good. He's gone for good.

120 years is a statement. And predators don't do well in there. Nope. Well, you're rising like. a Phoenix. And congratulations on everything you have going on. I'm so inspired by you. You are welcome to come back on. You can come back alone with your mom whenever your book comes out. I want everyone to follow you on Instagram and buy your book. So pimp yourself out. Free Mike. Okay. I am on Instagram because that's as much social media as I can handle. It's under India Oxenburg,

my name. And my book is on Audible exclusively called Still Learning. And do you have a documentary. I do have a documentary too. Amazing. And that was wonderful and totally reinvigorating. It got me back in the groove of production, which I love. That is called Seduced, and you can watch them on stars. And we're trying to convince you to start a podcast to add something to your podcast. Oh, I like this idea.

Thank you for coming on. You're amazing. Thank you guys. Do you want to win a copy of India's book? All you have to do is tell us who you want to hear or see next on the skinny confidential him and her show on my latest Instagram at the Skinny Confidential. And one of us will drop into your inbox and send you her book. It is so good.

You're going to love it. And as always, make sure you rate and review the show. It's how we grow the show. Tell a friend.