The Bossticks - How To Become A Better Marketer & Avoid Marketing Mistakes When Reaching Your Audience Or Customer Ft. Camille Moore

Episode Date: December 25, 2023

#639: Today, we're sitting down with marketing professional, Camille Moore. Camille is a Marketing and Strategy phenomenon who has cultivated a robust online following by fearlessly calling out big brands on their marketing fails and educating both pros and beginners on effective branding. In our conversation, we explore all things marketing. Camille shares invaluable tips and tricks for the best marketing practices while providing examples of the worst things you can do for a successful marketing campaign. We also delve into the current state of marketing companies, discussing how some have 'lost their plot,' and she offers insights into what this means and proposes solutions. To connect with Camille Moore click HERE To connect with Lauryn Evarts Bosstick click HERE To connect with Michael Bosstick click HERE Read More on The Skinny Confidential HERE To subscribe to our YouTube Page click HERE For Detailed Show Notes visit TSCPODCAST.COM To Call the Him & Her Hotline call: 1-833-SKINNYS (754-6697) This episode is brought to you by The Skinny Confidential. This episode is brought to you by WeightWatchers WeightWatchers is the #1 doctor recommended weight-management program and the trusted authority in evidence based weight-health. Visit ww.com/tsc to see if you qualify, and if you do, used code TSC25 to get one free month plus $25 off your second month. This episode is brought to you by Evlo Fitness Workout smarter, not harder. Visit evlofitness.com and use code SKINNY for one free month of Evlo. This episode is brought to you by Thrive Market Thrive Market is the go-to for all of your grocery and household essentials- and it's all conveniently delivered to your doorstep. Get 30% off your first order, plus a free $60 gift at thrivemarket.com/skinny or use code SKINNY at checkout. Produced by Dear Media

The following podcast is a dear media production. This episode is brought to you by The Skinny Confidential. Butterbrush, specifically. If you have not tried dry brushing, you are missing out. It is the best part of my day, especially as a busy mom. So what I do is I wake up, I'll meditate if I have time and my kids are asleep and I'll go in my bathroom. And for two minutes, I will brush up under the heart and down over the heart and circular

on my stomach for two straight minutes and then I will hop in a freezing cold shower. And the mix of these two things is like three shots of espresso. It is the best way to start your day. I am telling you. And butterbrush is so special to me. It's actually my favorite tool in the line. It's been something that I've wanted to create forever. It exfoliates, buffs off dead skin and rejuvenates your skin. It's like a whole skincare situation for your body. I'm absolutely obsessed with how butterbrush looks. It can hang from a hook in your bathroom so it doesn't get moldy. It's silicone, easy to clean, and has all natural bristles. You can shop butterbrush now on shop skinny confidential.com. That's shop skinny confidential.com. She's a lifestyle blogger extraordinaire. Fantastic. And he's a serial entrepreneur. A very smart cookie. And now Lauren Everts and Michael Bostic are bringing you alone for the ride. Get ready for some made. realness. Welcome to the skinny confidential, him and her. To be successful, you don't require an

insane marketing budget. And that's what's so cool about 2023 is like the camera on your iPhone is so powerful and trying things out, like test, test, test, test, and test. Like, you no longer have to have a half a million dollar TV ad that's going to be perfect that you need to run on TV with a million dollar ad spend. You can create an ad in two hours and run it for $25 and see how it performs. The internet is a funny place. I actually was on TikTok and I was looking for people who specialize in marketing and strategy. And I came across this girl who was so interesting with her approach to marketing and just so in your face in the best way. And her name was Camille Moore. So I followed her. I watched her content. I learned a lot from it. And then I reached out to her and I was like,

you have to come on the him and her show. And this episode delivers. She came on. She gave us the nitty gritty. She talks about the difference between good and bad marketing, how to get started as a content creator and how to make a splash, overcomplicated marketing tactics, marketing tactics that you can apply to your own business or social media, and how to understand the psychology of consumers. This episode for me as a business owner was really interesting. I learned a lot of really great marketing tips. And if you're looking for a follow on TikTok, she's your girl. On that note, let's welcome Camille Moore, who is a marketing and strategy expert to the him and her show. This is the skinny confidential him and her. Okay, I think it's so cool that we are

sitting here because I'm scrolling through TikTok, which I try not to do. I have like parameters around when I scroll on TikTok. It has to be when I'm doing something productive, like taking a walk. And you pop up and you're this firecracker, bold in your face, flamboyant, tell it how it is person. And I'm like, okay, this is interesting with what you were saying. And I go to your feed and I'm just like sucked into your videos because what you're saying is so smart. And I'm, so relevant, but also it was different than everything I was seeing on my TikTok feed. First, I want to know why you even decided to create content on TikTok and how you knew that that kind of content would take fire. I didn't want to create content. I hated the idea of creating

content. And the only reason why I decided to create content is because I really, I didn't really have a choice. I was telling clients for so long that the only only reason, the only reason, I was, only way to get business, to generate business, to create a brand that's lasting is to create content. And I wasn't doing it because I used the excuse of I'm too busy. And it's too, it's, I was so crippled by the idea of people I knew in my immediate circle judging me because those are the first people that see it. And I hated the idea of when you're kind of at that like point in your life where you start to become a professional, but those people that that are close to you don't see you as being good at your career because you're young. And it was getting to kind of like pass

that tipping point of where other people started to validate that you're actually great at what you do. And it's that loose tie phenomenon where they don't, they don't, they didn't know you in high school. They didn't know you in university. They're meeting you as an expert now. So I really didn't want to create content. I didn't think that I had anything interesting or different to say. I completely suffered from imposter syndrome. And it and it, and it was. a lot of pulling teeth and I just I did it because it wasn't getting traction for so long that it allowed me to be better at speaking and talking to my clients and then finally we had a video that hit and I was in New York City when the first video hit and I actually told my team to not post the content

because I hated the way that I looked and I was so fixated we were talking about this a few minutes ago of how I actually looked that I couldn't actually listen to the message and that morning when I when I was shooting content, I hadn't, I hadn't properly washed the shampoo out of my hair. And I was like midway blow drying. And I was like late because the video team was showing up. And I couldn't get my hair to dry where it wasn't looking wet. So I'm like, okay, type on. Sat down to shoot the content. My fly was undone and my shirt was like half untucked into my shirt. Like I hated the way that I looked. But my team didn't listen to me. And they posted it anyways and it hit in New York City. And then that was the first one when I was like, okay, maybe there's something here. And let's keep at it.

But it's mind-blowing to me that I'm one of the only people on the internet saying that marketing has lost the plot. Why has marketing lost the plot? It's a deep question. Go deep. We love deep. I think there's a few reasons why marketing has lost the plot. On one hand, I think society has kind of lost the plot on how we can communicate and how we can discuss issues and what's happening with social, political issues and just politics in general. that has also crept into like ESG ratings, which is deeply impacting how huge corporations are

marketing because there's things happening behind the scenes that impact shareholders for why they're deciding to talk about issues that they really don't care about. And I think there's another kind of arm of how overwhelming digital marketing is for the majority of who's successful in business because the CEOs and the C-suite executives are over 40. And they didn't grow up with their cell phones. They don't understand the Facebook and the TikTok and the YouTube and the Instagram. And because they don't understand what's happening on social media, they're chasing snake oil answers to try to get a better quarter. And because they don't understand it, they're overcomplicating it because the algorithm is changing so quickly. Like nobody knows

what they're doing. And there's so many things going on that the big companies are failing to market and the small and medium sized businesses are trying to look at them for the answers. and everyone is just in this cluster fuck of we have no idea what to do. And we're missing, we're not going back to like what made marketing great before, which is just like simple microscripts that's not tied to social justice issues. And it's, it's, I'm still trying to like unpack it. And we're trying to develop almost our own language around it because marketing shouldn't be this complicated.

Like it should be what we've been doing for hundreds of years, but just on a new platform, like in a new way. It's like bring the madmen-esque back to social. Yes. And there's like, I don't even know how to synthesize this because it's like something that I mean, I'm in packing. I think this is like my, my, I'm going to be a philosopher of social media marketing. And what I think about it because we're watching like Rome right now and it and it's hilarious

there's this guy. The old HBO Rome? Yeah, the old HBO. Don't talk to me about that. The second season we don't discuss. Well, no, but they never finished it. You'll see. They just quit the show.

I don't tell her. I can't even go. No, I can't even go past it. They changed the actor. There was a writer strike that happened. I don't know what happened, but they never, they like. Why change the lead? I think there was a bunch of stuff going on back then.

But that's a great show, but it's devastating that they didn't finish it. But the only thing that I will talk about in the show that I did like is, you know, that guy that's like the orator in the in Rome? He gives ads. He's like advertising the best bread bakery. And it's like, literally his ad is like, whatever the bakery is, the bread of choice for Romans. And I'm like, that's good marketing. They're not talking about social justice issues. They're not.

And when I go to like museums and I look back at like really cool vintage ads, it was just about the product and how it made you feel. It was like, you were going to be the coolest guy because you're wearing this bracelet. Like it wasn't about. So there's these people that are really suffering within our community. and we need to go back to like no plastics. But here's a cup. Right. Like it's not overcomplicating it.

Yes. That actually makes total sense. It's like now you have to check like if you're a food product. It's like vegan, gluten free, non-GMO. Coture. Coture. Here's the thing. And I want to thoughtfully say this.

I think brands in particular and the shareholders in those brands are more scared now of missing a conversation or being left out of or getting some flack if they don't jump into a conversation instead of catering to what their customers actually want from them. Does that make sense? Yeah. So when I think about running this company, I have to spend a lot of time reminding people in this organization that mostly people come to, not just for skinny come, but for dear media, they come because they want to get some entertainment from the shows.

They want to get some news if it's that kind of show. They want to be inspired in some kind of way. They want to have a laugh. They don't need my personal take or the company's personal take on every hot button issue that's going on in the world. And at some point, if it's okay to, if it's native to what you're doing as a company and it makes sense to the story in the brand you're building, fine. But if all of a sudden one day I'm sharing about a fiction comedy show and the next day I'm doing a social justice agenda, it's not that I can't acknowledge those things, but that audience may look at this day like, hey, can you just give me what? I was, what I came here in the first place for, which was I wanted to listen to this thing. And so I'm very careful about threading that line, but never feeling the pressure to just do

things because other people are doing things. Yes, but I don't think that you're the issue. Like it's, it's not, I'm never the issue. It's true. It's not the skinny confidential. It's not dear media. Like when I talk about marketing has lost the plot, it's more like corporations have always been faceless. And to be faceless means, you. you can't stand for an independently charged issue. And that's the problem that we're facing because forever, people like us looked to companies like Nike for inspiration of marketing. Like they were the marketing behemists.

When we talk about Mad Men, it was these big faceless companies. It was Tiffany. It's Nike. It's all of the companies that we can rattle off. And when you're faceless, you have to create, a brand. You can't, you can't stand for a political issue. When you're an individual, when you're Lauren Bostic that owns the skinny confidential, you can care about digestive issues. You can care about skin cancer because it makes sense to your brand. And that's, that's not where marketing has an issue.

Like with social media and personal brands, you're building tribes and you can have tribalism within the issues that you agree with. And that's, I'm not, I'm not advocating for bringing politics into your business and marketing. I think that's in and of itself a separate conversation, but it can work. But when you're a faceless entity, the only reason why they're bringing these issues into the fold is because of ESG ratings. And the average person doesn't know that. That's really interesting that you're saying this because there's a new book that just came out on Glossier. Yes. And what I think happened is people started to associate Emily Weiss as Glossier.

Yeah. And had you not associated that, Glossier would have been able to stand on its own without having to check any boxes because it wasn't Emily Weiss. Yeah. And so what she did by stepping as in as chairman is she eliminated her and Glossier to be so intertwined. And that was a problem because people were like, oh, Glossiate, that's Emily Weiss's brand.

So I think when you are launching a brand, like for me, it's really important. to make the skinny confidential way bigger than Lauren Bostic. I don't want, I want like it to not be Lauren Bostic, in fact. So, but it, that's hard to differentiate when you create the brand. So it's, it's, it's, it's sort of a double edge sword. Totally. But, but that's also, that's where good branding matters because you can craft the story in the way that you wanted to be told. But where I think when I say marketing has lost the plot, what comes to mind are instances like but light, right, where how the hell did that get approved? And, but it's actually funny. Like, that was kind of my first reaction. And then now with kind of where I am and with what I've seen, the only things that

these companies can actually also agree upon are things like breast cancer awareness month. And they're not getting anything effective done. Like we've lost the like the Hertz campaigns where we're number two, we try harder because people are just so afraid to say anything interesting or even the word controversy. Like I say with my clients, you've got to say something controversial and the word controversial isn't even the right word because it's so negatively charged. But you have to just say something that people can either agree or disagree with and it can be something that's not even really that disagreeable. Like talking about Bud Light not being the right move, objectively wasn't the right move when you look at how much money the company lost.

And yeah, regardless of the social agenda that it was trying to portray that from a company P&L perspective, it was a terrible move. It was a terrible decision. You know, but you would say like, how does the hell does that get approved? I know exactly how gets approved. Somebody comes pushing that campaign and says, if we don't do this thing, we are going to get this kind of lack or you're going to be the company that shut down this idea. And the shareholders at the top say, oh, shit, we don't need the entire. And it backfired on them, right? And I think that's the difficulty with placating to what you believe is popular or not popular based on what's going on on the social chatter online, right? I think a lot of these guys, to your point, they sit at the top of this.

They're not on these platforms. They have no idea how to read the social chat. Or somebody comes to him in a panic saying, we have to do this. They freak out thinking, if I don't do this, I'm going to ruin the company. Then they do do it. And they ruin the company. And it's a tough position to be in because this is new technology that moves really fast. I even think that, you know, you see a lot of the turmoil that's going on in the world.

then I won't get so political, but people don't realize how fast things can move now based on how quick information flows. Like, I'm two for two now. I had SVB for the business and I was at First Republic personally, not to get super deep into that. But people don't realize like those bank runs happened in a matter of 24 hours, billion dollar companies got taken down because of the speed of that information flows out. And there's no way that those shareholders were sitting at the top thinking that that could ever happen. And I think that's that's the interesting space where it is people just, they're nervous and they make these decisions out of fear because they don't want the internet to turn on them. And then it turns on them in the wrong way. It's complicated.

It's very complicated. No, it's, it's very complicated also for people that have no clue what they're doing on these platforms. Does that make sense? Totally. And there's also another angle of this where shareholder valuations and like constantly chasing like perpetual increased quarters is so damaging for businesses because you can't be forever going up. And that's what's really difficult when you're in marketing because they're looking for, and I talk about this a lot in my content, like, what Tiffany, Tiffany has killed its brand because they're chasing trends and they're using marketing agencies that are trying to give quarterly metrics to their, the C-suite team that are like, look what we're doing. It's, we're getting

likes, we're getting comments, we're getting shares, but they're creating memes that are trash for the brand that when we grew up, like, to have that like, you know, please return to Tiffany Heart was like a status symbol. And when I look at Tiffany now, I'm like, you're cheap. They created memes. Would you mean like cartoon memes? What do you mean? They've done content. Like, for example, for April Fool's, they did this like horrible, like almost like an Asian kind of like inspired like huge chunky sneaker. Right. And they like bedazzled it. And they like had this like crazy animation and they can't like, and like, like, Farrell at the time was working with the brand. and they made it seem like they were dropping these like K-pop bedazzled sneakers.

And it was like their April Fool's joke. And I'm like a brand that is that is meant to be coveted as the engagement ring brand for women indefinitely. Timeless classic. Timeless classic. Shouldn't be chasing an April Fool's joke on Instagram. No, that may. So what you're saying is that these marketing people or companies are coming in and they're just overcomplicating. the message. It needs to be simplified and you need to go back to the roots of what made you

popular in the beginning. Completely. If you're a luxury brand that's been in business for 300 years, why are you chasing like quarterly metrics? It doesn't make sense. Like your place on social is not designed. Like I've been in the boardrooms for the biggest, like the biggest fashion brands in the world and their entire mandate is supposed to be not focused on sales. Because Cartier is not supposed to care about what they make next quarter. They're meant to maintain value for the 20 years. When we think Birkin, it's gone up in value. It's been more stable than gold. In order to do that, you can't chase next quarter of metrics. Like, you have to be focused on the long run of marketing. I think it's a brand. Fear of missing out. I think Tiffany sees that what

young youthful creators are doing on TikTok and they want a piece of that instant quick hit, that quick hit of cocaine that gets you all the followers and all the virality. And so what they do is they think, oh, we need to do a meme to stay relevant to that demographic when they're, they leave the other demo that they've been catering behind. And that is a mistake because it's like leaving, leaving the people that have supported you and got you there. They should be walking me who wore their bracelet through what my, my jewelry moment is now at this age as a mother. Yeah, totally. I also think that, and this is going to, I got to think about how I want to say this, but there is a huge push to be, inclusive of everyone, everything all the time. And I'm not saying that is not morally the correct

way to think. But when I hear you talk about Tiffany's or Cartier, for example, immediately my mind goes, that's a higher income upper echelon group of people that can afford, you know, very expensive stuff that most of the world will never look at. If you, if you're the brand and you look at it from that approach and say, okay, like, I understand like this is my customer base. It just is what it is to your point has been built over 200 years. I think it is then a mistake to try to pretend you're relatable to the rest of the world and loop everybody in. Great point. Because you're not, right? And I think that's where brands are getting in trouble. It's like Tiffany's is a very elevated, expensive brand that, you know, it was to celebrate an engagement or a special

occasion. And it was like a once in a while purchase for wealthy people to then turn all that and say, hey, we're for everybody. That's just a mistake from the business perspective because it doesn't work. And that's like the reason why I give the fashion houses is that's always been the far extreme, right? So when I think about like how the hell is Yeti a cooler company doing a better job than Tiffany? Like that doesn't make any sense. And that's why I think marketing is like has lost the plot. Like how is the people that have that are that have understood that we can charge two. hundreds times that for silver jewelry than the other silver jewelry companies can't see through the delusion that posting in April Fool's post is a good idea. Like it just, it blows my mind.

And that and that's why I think that we need to almost take a step back. Like social media is the most amazing thing. Like I think it's effing fantastic that we can connect through like through digital platforms. People I would have never met through a country that I don't even live in. I know. That's wild. It's amazing. Yeah. It's so cool. But it doesn't mean that we need to change the core principles of how humans have bought and have told stories for thousands of years. So why I really wanted to bring you on here is there's a lot of people listening who have businesses or blogs or their content creators and they want to tap into marketing, but they have no experience in marketing. If you were to give this your sort of like tips and your theories and your

philosophies in a digestible way to people. to apply to their own businesses? What are those like little pillars? Ooh. Okay, there's a few. I think the first is good marketing shouldn't cost calories. So if you have to, if you have to take a few orders of thinking to get to what you're trying to say, it's not going to work. We are in an intention economy. You have to, I call them microscripts, or they're called microscripts. And the book actually on microscripts is a great book to read. and it's things like don't mess with Texas. It tastes awful, but it works. It's a tagline, but it's more than a tagline because there's so much meaning derided in it in a non-obvious way. So it's a three to five

word sentence. And good marketing should encapsulate a microscript. That's kind of the first thing that I would say. The second is it depends what industry you're in. Like if you're a service provider, you have to invest in a personal brand. Like that is the way that we buy. We buy through social media and we buy by understanding who the person is that we're working with. And you can't wait for the consult. The consult happens unfortunately online.

So that's why creating content is so important because we wouldn't be having this conversation if I didn't create content. And my job interview is happening online while I don't even know that it's happening. And that's how we buy. Like to be able to even think of like any service provider that you want to work with, whether it's a doctor, a lawyer, you find them online, right? And a lot of their marketing looks the same. So you really want to invest in capturing what makes you unique and why you're the best person for the job. The third is you are not the hero of your own story. Oh, please go off on this. The customer is the hero. And you see this a lot in products because it's it seems so. Like, it seems, it makes so much sense because, like, the person that's buying it, you're wanting to make, you're trying to create their reality to be better. But when you're in services, the service provider gets so obsessed with their expertise, their, like, they can't, they can't see the forest for the trees that they become so obsessed with talking about their credentials that they forget to talk about you. And the reason why they're hiring you is because they want their life to be better.

So like that'd be kind of the third tip. I'm trying to like I think the last before you unpack this and probably ask some more questions is simple is better, but simple is not easy. So that what comes across or what you like that's why I think it's so interesting that my message has done so well because it's really simple. But you don't find simple enough. And if you can just focus on simple by making the customer, the hero, you're gold. If you're a faceless, let's call it faceless brand, I don't know. Say you're a, I don't want to pick on any specific product. Like this water. Like this water. And you don't have a, there's no person or so there's. Nobody knows who's actually the face.

What do you see brands doing well there and what do you see brands making mistakes with? They're over-complicating it. Like that's kind of where the simple, the simple comes in. Like, if this is the best tasting water, like actually, this is a great example. Like if we were to analyze this bottle, like all I can see is like it's since 1871. So like that tells me that they've been around for a long time. So it's probably a good tasting water. And you want to just make sure that it's simple.

Like when you look at this, it's not, they're not overcomplicating anything. It's green. So it signifies like health. It's good quality. It's glass. It says spring water at the top. Like it just go, it's about going back to simple. Like a company like this probably doesn't need an Instagram.

Like we're probably not following them on Instagram. They've been on every table on all 90 or so shows. We've paid full price for them. every time since day one have not gone. You're not over this. He talks about this every day. Like, I can't hear this again. No, here's the thing, Mountain Valley. But you know what? It is the best fucking water. But no, Mountain Valley doesn't give a shit about you. They don't give a shit. And I pay full price. That's actually, that's actually good branding. That's my point is I pay full price because it's a phenomenal product and they do a really good job. And that's what works. And it works.

It's simple. Like they're they're not overcomplicating it. They're not trying to make it about something that doesn't connect to good quality water. Like, when I look at this, I'm like, it's designer water. Be nice if they send me a sweatshirt or something, though. They're not going to send you a sweatshirt. A hat even, guys. Jesus Christ. What makes you such an expert in this?

Like, do you remember being little and like looking at an ad and being like, oh, that's atrocious? I'd edit it like this. Like, what's like an epiphany that you remember when you were little? And now almost you look back on it and you're like, okay, that was like kind of weird that I did that, but now it makes sense. I got a job at 14. I worked at McDonald's. Nice. Same. I worked at McDonald's too.

Best job ever. It's fucking great. McDonald's is great branding. It was the best job in the whole wide world. Like the best first job. And the reason why I got a job is to buy a brand. I bought the brightest turquoise bench jacket. And that is why I got a job because I wanted this bench jacket so bad.

All the cool girls at school was wearing these bench jackets. and I asked my parents if I could have had a bench jacket. And I was just the poor chubby kid from Scarborough. And my parents were like, no, we can't afford a bench jacket. I'm like, okay, well, I'm going to go buy a bench jacket. So I went and got a job. And that's why I got a job was to start buying brands so that I could show the world how I wanted to be categorized, classed, and assessed.

And it's been a journey to actually realize that this is what I was meant to do. when I was, it's like funny looking back because there was never a moment where I'm like, I want to be in branding or I even want to be in marketing. I didn't even really understand what marketing was. But when I look back and I analyze all of the things that got me to where I am here, it's been my calling. Like I've always understood the psychology of the brand. I tried to understand when I was young. Like, why is coach not cool, but Chanel cool? And I'm like, why do I want a Chanel bag so bad? But this coach bag that I bought. a few years ago is is not what I want. Like, why do we buy what we buy to show people who we are as people? And that's been my journey into branding and why I think I'm the best at this. And it's, yeah, like, I don't remember those, like those individual moments, but when I look back, it's kind of been everything leading up to this point. It sounds like, though, you also have sort of like a bachelor in psychology.

I went to school for English. And I've always loved philosophy and psychology. And I've always loved humans. Like, I've loved understanding humans and trying to dissect them and categorize them and understand them at, like, a really deep level so that I can almost, for lack of a better term, like, serve them better as a human being. Like, I can connect with them better when I understand them. So I really enjoy navigating and understanding humans, which makes me really great at what I

do because I can understand, like, the customer for the skinny confidential, which is very different than the customer for Lulu Lemon or for Yeti or for Bud Light. That's what the psychology of buying is. It's like these mini brand universes where these like humans that don't exist, but if I explain them to you, like right away are who the customer is. So it's just been understanding humans and like being really good at navigating interpersonal relationships. But just on that last point, this is kind of exactly what I'm trying to articulate is you just highlighted four businesses. And when you say those four, it's called brands, immediately everyone that's listening starts to think, oh, those are different communities of humans,

of groups that think a certain kind of way. Like when you say the Bud Light group or the former bud light group and Skinny Confidential, he's like, that is not a like-minded group. But when these companies all get together and start pushing the same kind of talking points and the same kind of initiatives to completely different communities, I think that's fundamentally the mistake and the disconnect. I'm not talking about like, is this the right or wrong thing? I'm talking about from of growing your brand doing the right thing by your business perspective. Because trying to loop all of those groups in together.

And listen, there's certain issues that we can all connect on and have like-mindedness on. But trying to serve the skinny confidential community, the same way you would serve the Bud Light community or the Yeti community would be a drastic mistake. And I think a lot of companies

are doing that right now. It's the biggest issue right now in marketing and why when we talk about why Dyson is doing such a good job or why Yeti is doing such a great job is they're so focused on the next decade of what they're trying. They're trying to own an industry. They're not trying to own a moment.

And when we even talk about virality, like, there's all you hear when you're in my world is how do we get that next viral video? How do we get that next viral campaign? How do we get that 15 minutes of when we're like the silly bands or whatever of the moment? And that's a flawed way of looking at your market. not only your marketing, but like how to position your business, because if you're, if you're focused on being fleeting, you're not, you're not going to last. And that's not a

brand. Like that's just a sale. But I think you can also apply that to creators. We see so many creators that take a hit off one video and they get this astronaut syndrome. And they literally like, they go flying and they go to the moon. And it's like every single like brand wants to work with them and they become so popular. But then like two years later, you don't know where they are. They've like died out. You can't find them anywhere. and they're almost in a way like not, like, for lack of a better word, cool, because they had that one hit and there was no sustainability. It reminds me of that little guy that's like chipping the wall away, like to success.

It's like small little chips is what makes you that iconic brand. Totally. It's not the like viral video that's going to be one hit wonder. It really is like slow, methodical, thoughtful, precise little moments that make up, in my opinion, a really successful brand with longevity. Well, even with what you're saying, like, it's, it's relevant to break that down further because when you're talking about a brand, it's not about immediate relevancy. It's, it's like how we can all in this room when we talk about when I, when I say a brand,

we all, like, we all understand what we're kind of talking about. Carbone. Carbone. Yaddy. Stanley Cup. Like, Stanley Cup's a perfect example. Like, they've been, they were like one of the original thermos brands. They're over 100 years old, and they've really nailed quality, like, thermos product offerings.

And when that cup took off, it didn't take off because of a marketing campaign. Like, they looked at the market. They understood the customer. Like, women that are trying to drink more water want to handle. They want it cold. They want a cold. Freezing fucking cold. They're hungover.

They want to grab it on their time. And they want to put in their car. And they want to be able to bring it with them and that it fits in their car. And they want to match the lime green to the lime shoes and the neon. They want the millennial colors. And they just did what the market wanted. And the market responded. And that they built the marketing team after it exploded.

It wasn't a marketing ploy to do crazy well. It was they created a product that the customer wanted. And when you talk about like that one hit that a company or a creator or whoever gets, it skews your benchmark because it puts you that you should always be up here. And if you're not doing things to maintain your brand, like chasing highs and lows is, is not sustainable. Let's talk about Weight Watchers. Weight Watchers is the number one doctor-recommended weight management program and the trusted

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of dealing with talent, right? Like running this company. Obviously, I'm doing this on a mic, but I deal with a lot of talent. And I, oh, and I'm trying to think about how much, I find it a lot of times really tragic when somebody brings us an offer or an opportunity with someone who's quote unquote gone viral and is having a moment because the exercise that I have to do running this business is think about what things look like one, two, three, four, five years down the line. And a lot of those creators that have that moment, here's what happens, a bunch of agents, a bunch of managers, they jump in because they're the hot thing of the moment. But then they start to dwindle out and those people just leave them high and dry.

Not to call out any single person, but that's what happens. And so like what I always like the thing I'm trying to coach everybody is like what does when I meet with someone like what does this look like four or five, six, seven, eight years down the line because that's where the real money is too. Like you can quickly monetize something. But if you don't have a plan to stay relevant over the next two to three years, you're done. You're screwed. Like you can't, you don't have a career in this space.

And not enough, not enough people that have been that have experience are telling young creators that. So like the goal should not be to go viral. The goal should be to have a brand over. decades that you can, especially if it's a personal brand, because that's something that's going to be tied to yourself personally for the rest of your life. Joe Rogan's a great example of someone who's kept with, he's stayed in line with what his, he's not trying to bring on all these celebrities to talk, like he knows that people want to see him, shoot the shit with

his friends, talking about steak, what peptides he uses, he stayed in his lane. His brand is so strong, you know exactly what you're getting. He shows up in a consistent. way where you'd be crazy to go on expecting something else. You just know what you're getting. Well, the way to think about it is like when you, if you, if you looked at quote unquote, traditional celebrities, like how many of them from the 80s do you still see around? Very few. Very few. Same the night. Like I think like this is just a specifically two creators in the digital age. If you're not thinking about what your career looks like 10, 20, 30 years down the line, like you become one of those dinosaurs from the 80s. And I'm not trying to pick on.

cheap. Yeah, you just, yeah, I want you to talk about cheap and saturated. So talk about the brands that have been around and they are like very famous brands, but now they're being cheapened and saturating themselves. Oh my God, like, I think it's, it's harder to find ones that are that are doing a great job, like at the upper echelon. Like I, Louis Vuitton, like, why are you opening malls in like in the middle of nowhere United States? Like, like Gucci, why are you creating clothes that? And, like, I, is on par with Zara. Like, that's not your brand. And it's, there's, like, the reason I was laughing what you were saying is I'm constantly asking, like, what's the plan? Where's the plan here? Well, I don't think a lot of people, I think, I think a lot of people think that these moments will

just continue to keep happening, right? And that's what's, but that's, that's, that's cheap. Like, that's tacky. Like, you, you have to have, it's, it's mission critical to have to have your eye on a target and to be focused towards that target. And Alex Hermose makes a great message where he talks about in this one video about Chick-fil-A, and I love it and I have to give him credit for it because it's those simple messages that really click. And he talks about with Chick-fil-A and why Chick-Fillet is such a great brand is that they're not focused on overcomplicating. Like they're not down one quarter and they're like, let's introduce bowls, right? Like they stick to a short menu item selection.

They're focused on doing something simple really well. And they've done a really great job for a really long time. And for us as customers, when you're a business owner, when you're sitting in the driver's seat, and I suffer from this too, but I keep going back to the Augs-Thermosi message, what may feel repetitive to me is brand new to you. And six months or one year may feel like a hell of a long time.

to us as, one as humans and as individuals, but to the customer in the public, when they come back to your restaurant or your business, three years later, they want that consistency in your message and your offering and whatever you're providing. And that's why it's like, what's the plan? How many times have you gone to a restaurant where you had something like so good? You loved. It's like the caseo cheese sauce with like the specific like jalapinos with the chips and you go in and like a year later. And you're like, can I get the caseo cheese? And they're like, oh, we don't have it anymore. Why? Why would you take the case of cheese sauce off the thing? What do you mean? That's the best thing on the menu. Why would you do? Why would you do that?

And they're like, oh, well, now we have like a mango pie. I want it. I'm like, no, but I don't want the pico de guy. Like, I want the cheese sauce that I had with the same experience, with the margarita. Like, why are you taking? And they're just kind of like, oh, if we took it off, we changed the menu. You're right. It's better to keep it simple, get really good at whatever category that you're doing. and stick with it. And it does sometimes, and I can say this, is doing this podcast. Like, it feels sometimes that you maybe are talking about the same thing over and over, but you are right. It's brand new to people that are just discovering it or it's people are coming back for the same thing. Well, but the problem, I mean, listen, like you said, there's so many amazing things about this.

But one of the things that I think is a struggle for many people is it's provided endless options and people feel they need to take every option. They need to take every fork in the road. And, you know, prior to the, existence of this kind of technology, if you were building a business, let's take even travel. Like you were probably building it in a specific area with a very specific customer base and you couldn't move and you couldn't leave. And so you got really good at doing one thing. Really well. Very, very well. And this is like, oh, okay, I nailed that instead of doubling down on that and doing it even better. Let me jump to the next thing and start over. And I think that happens not just with brands, but it happens with dating. It happens with so many things. People just feel

like they have endless options and because of that they feel pressure to take all of those options. But you should be obsessive with improvement. Like it's not about becoming complacent. It's that what feels like a hell of a long time to us is like is nothing to somebody else. It's like I want to qualify though also what you're saying because I do there is a reality that the demands of the platform are changing. Like if you think back to a year ago like doing these like videos when you travel. who weren't as big of a thing. And I'm like, I had this moment where I'm like, now I got to shoot video when I travel. I just had gotten really good at creating content when I traveled through photos.

No, but I don't go to you for that. I probably would love to see you travel. But when I go to your page, I wanted to see all your hot takes on all things marketing. True. So I don't even think that you need to show your travel. Fair. But what I'm saying is when you're like a business looking at this, like the business does have to evolve as far as like how the world is changing through digital media. Like Ralph Lauren it's like a coffee shop now and that's not what it started at. Yes.

Yes. You have to like... But I think Ralph's was smart. I can't show on no, no. I'm saying that that's a good thing. Brilliant. They've taken the evolution in a way where it's... But also, how long has Ralph Lauren been around? 20 years? No longer. Longer than I. Right. It's been around forever. So it's evolved.

True. And that's what I'm saying is you can evolve it's such a like it's so complicated because I don't I don't want I don't want one thing I say to be taken like it's what we're saying is evolving but you have to come back to simple like you have to come back to the core principles and I call it like a lesson from the classics like the classics do do what they do really well and when it comes to my brand you're right I'm not interested in telling you how to video edit I'm not interested in telling you how to create ads that's really not my skill set like my skill set is to look at like a 50,000 foot view and say that's

was a really bad idea. What were you thinking? Or let's do this. This really makes sense for this customer base. Let's create a coffee shop. Let's call it Ralph. So let's bring down the brand so it's approachable in a way that still makes sense, but raises the status because we want to create content while we're in their coffee shop. Makes sense. But what brands should also be cognizant of is overcomplicating when that doesn't make sense for their core customer wants. And when you're Chick-fil-A, you don't need to introduce bowls. And that's why Chick-fil-A is universally loved. And there's lineups everywhere you go. They have great customer service, simple offering, and they nailed fried chicken. People love fried chicken, offer fried chicken.

In and out. In and out. Fantastic. Fantastic. You know what I would like to see, though, for you to travel? I'd love for you to travel to hotels and dissect the branding. Go in a hotel and tell me who's doing it right and who's doing it wrong. See, I feel like you can also flip it on its head.

If everyone's doing travel stuff, like I feel like you can take what everyone's doing and put it in a blender and blend it up and do it your own way and do your own take on it. But speaking of simplifying, and I don't want to dumb down any message, but I really feel personally, this is my personal take, that so many people struggle with marketing because they have no idea what their customers are actually coming to them for consistently. And they try, they have a really solid group of customers that love a specific offering from them and instead of looking at that group and saying, hey,

there's probably other people that are going to love this specific offering that these people already love. They go, great, got them. Let's go on 18 other crusades and side missions that have nothing,

like I think about like a video, like all these side missions that have nothing to do with what people are coming to you for. And all of a sudden, you're on this big tangent and the people that you had that love your thing. And you lost them. Are like,

what the fuck am I doing here anymore? Like this is not, this is not what I came here for. And then you lose everybody. Yes. Yes. But I also, I hate the word marketing because also what is marketing? Like so many people that that don't understand marketing also don't understand business fundamentals.

And there's also often core issues with customer service, backend experience, like operations. Like it, when you use the word like marketing as like a blanket term, it really is how your business operates. And that's like another like complicated like arm of this. is that you have to understand the plan. Like, what's the plan? Who's your customer? What are your goals? And how is everything that you're doing work within that framework?

Because when you don't have a plan, a proper structure, or a way to properly appreciate your customer base, that's when you, it just goes wrong. Because even what you're saying, like, if you truly understand your business and you really have a great handle on marketing, you're not. worried about people who aren't buying from you. Like that, that shouldn't matter. Well, imagine this. Imagine if I was, say the four of us, we're going to go out to dinner tonight. I'm like, hey, I'm going to take you to this great steakhouse. Jeffries. We love it. We're going to go there. And we sat down at the table and we're all getting a great steak. We're going to get a

drink. We're pumped on this. And right away, the menu was like, listen to about this social economical political issue before you dive into the food and order you drink. I'd be like, what the fuck are you talking about. I mean, I came here to steak. But this is exactly what these companies are doing. This is what they're doing. So I'm using the rest of restaurant analogy because everybody listening would think in that situation, what the hell is going on here? I came here for a steak. And what these companies are doing is like, I came here for a sweater. Now I'm getting this. I came here for a drink. I'm getting this. And it's these people are losing the plot because they're not reading the room of what the people are actually coming to them for. And that's not to say

you can't stand for something. It's just you have to read the room and understand why people are there in the first place. My favorite question is when someone says, I really want to start a blog, Warren, but I only have 30 followers. I'm like, okay, then cater to the 30 followers. Take the 30 followers that you have and let them be the influencers. Let each of those 30 followers go out to dinner with 15 of their girlfriends and go tell 15 of their girlfriends. People are also missing that the actual influencer isn't the podcaster or the huge person with millions of followers. It's the customer.

And when you understand that the customer, that the 30 followers that you have is going to go out to happy hour with all our friends and get drunk and be like, that is the best fucking ice roller for when you're hungover. That's how you grow. It's not through getting more, more, more. It's serving. And you say this all the time. It's serving who you already have and letting them be the soldiers. I think that a lot of people are missing that too. Boy, yes. Don't let me forget also what you said, too, because I've got a really great example. This is the him and her show, so we just step in how we want to step in. I love it. I love it. Well, okay, well, the first point of what you said is like when someone is saying I've got 30 followers and I want to start a blog, like, my first kind of question is, well, why do you want to start a blog? And if it's because you're really passionate about it, then just do it and the followers will come. Like, just do it really well. The second point to what you're saying is something I'm actually going to make a video on because, again, it's like back to that simple message that, like, clicks.

Think about when we go up for dinner. Like, the only reason why we go up for dinner is to tell. stories. Like if you and I are a girlfriend, if we're going out for dinner, I'm telling you about either our shared friends. We're talking about them. We're talking about the great Pilates class I had last week. Great place they went for dinner. Cute things I saw online. Like, we're sharing stories. No, no, you girls are talking shit. That's what you're doing. That's what you're talking stories. You're not. You're talking shit. Yeah, we are. We are. But the, the, the, we're telling stories. So like, you have to say something interesting, provides something, a service or product that

improves their life that they want to talk about you at that dinner meeting. So just whatever you're doing, do it great so that you are brought up at that dinner topic. And that's like what you were saying too about if we were to go out for dinner and they gave us like a PETA announcement of how these animals were treated before they serve our steak. Like I went to Lulu Lemon recently and there's a their running ambassador is obese. Like they're running ambassadors. Ambassadors are obese. Like they're running ambassador is obese and this is a fitness. And this is not a fat shaming statement. This is not saying that you cannot work out to improve your life. But why is a running ambassador, someone that can't run? And like, why are we in this place in the world where we need to please people that

aren't the right figureheads for the message we're trying to share? And we're trying to please everyone. When you please everyone, you actually please nobody. Because there's a space to be inspirational for those who need inspiration, but I don't believe that that's Lulu Lemon's brand. Also, do people not realize that there's an undertone and intuition of the customer that feels that people are just doing things to check a box? Yes. That's the most interesting. Like, the person who maybe is out of shape that walks in and sees that ad, they're going to feel uncomfortable with that. That's not like, it's not, it doesn't Well, there's the counter argument to say that like maybe that's showing representation. And if that's what the brand, like, here's the thing. I think if that is the customer base that the brands are trying to cultivate, that is one thing. But if it's just doing it because you want to appease everybody in the world that happens to pass by that store, that's the wrong way to market your brand. And I would agree with you. But if you, if you, I dug into it. And if you dug into it a bit further, they go on to say that this is a like almost like she's a marathon.

runner. And it's disingenuous because it there's a space, there's a space for a message that's inspirational for people who need it. Like there's people who are going into Lou Lemon to start their fitness and workout journey. And there's a way to do it. But then there's also a way to do it where we're talking about marketing and we're like, why are we here? Like this doesn't make sense. Like why are we, we're so used to this, that example that you gave us where we're at a steakhouse, we're ready to order a steak and then they're trying to tell us that we should be veg. And it, it's, those moments where we're like, when did this happen? And we go back to the example of like Rome, when that person sitting on the soapbox was like, this is the bread for Romans, they weren't

overcomplicating where we're having this conversation. We're trying to figure out what they were trying to say with this marketing message. It's too complicated. And the three of us all have different opinions. And it shouldn't be that simple. It should just be the best workout, the workout company in the world. Like they became famous for making a ridiculous statement that overweight people shouldn't wear leggings. Like that's why Lou Lleven became famous. It's like Victoria's Secret. The same thing. It's like, why is Victoria's Secret now trying to say that we didn't make billions of dollars

by putting supermodels on a runway in lingerie? And now they've lost the people that actually wanted to support a runway because they're trying to please people that never were actually customers in the first place. And it's not, this isn't fat shaming. This isn't this isn't being disagreeable. It's a reality that we're trying to please too many people. And when you try to please people, you really get nobody. Well, again, I'll use podcasting example.

I always tell people that are doing a show. If you're trying to play the middle of the road all the time, you end up reaching nobody. You get nobody. But I'll pick on Bud Light a little bit here just because I think everybody can look at that as an example of maybe marketing gone wrong. Again, not making a commentary on any kind of social issue. but they had a certain customer base that they've had and cultivated for decades of years, right? And that was loyal to them. And let's just make the blanket statement that maybe that customer base was not so inviting or excited about the campaign they decided to go into.

So what happened was they issued a campaign to go into a new customer base that was arguably maybe never ever their customer base or going to be their customer base. If someone's listening and they don't know what you're talking about, lay it on the table. There's a Dylan Mulvaney. Is that the name? That's the campaign. And so they went for, they tried to get new customers or new people that they probably couldn't get in the first place as a brand. And while doing that, they completely alienated the customer base they did. So at the end of the day, listen, I don't know where they're at now, but and I'm sure not in a great place. Not in a great place. But they ended up to your point, alienating everybody, which was a mistake from a business perspective, from a stock price perspective, from a stock price perspective, from a. selling perspective. Now, again, if they felt compelled that they had to do this, fine, but I think companies need to be aware. And this goes back to what I'm saying is people are not reading the room as to who they're talking to, what their customers want from them. You know, I think it's okay to not be for everybody. Like, I know, like, there's a lot of people that are going to listen to this show, maybe this episode even, and say, like, this guy is not

for me. I don't like him. I don't ever want to hear him again. I don't want to see him. That's their prerogative. That's their option. But I can't then try to be like, please come back and listen. I got to speak to the people that are here for the message that I'm sharing. Or are interested in hearing like or are just hearing what you have to say. Like the Bud Light and Dillamaldane is it is worth speaking about because it's it also goes to what I'm saying about Lulu Lemon. Bud Light had been sponsoring pride parades for years. It wasn't that they entered into a different market.

It's that who they selected and the message that was paid and represented by the brand. didn't align with the brand period. And in the post that Dylan Mulvaney made, he was dressed up as Audrey Hepburn, who in Breakfast at Tiffany's is a abused woman. He is saying or she is saying in the video that she doesn't know what March Madness is. She's making fun of people that drink beer during March Madness,

which is when beer tends to be consumed is during social gatherings. it's a lower percentage alcohol, so you tend to drink more. And during March Madness, it's a longer game. So you're drinking over a longer period of time. And it completely missed the point on the brand. It wasn't supporting a Pride parade or someone that was pro-March Madness. And she doesn't even like beer, it sounds like.

And she doesn't even like beer. So it was a knock on also the customer base that they did have who loves beer. It was a knock on how beer is consumed. It was a knock on who consumes beer. it wasn't it wasn't even supporting or advocating for women like audrey heppern is is a is a figurehead for where women have come from and we've we iconize it because audrey heppern was fabulous and it was a great movie but if but many people haven't watched breakfast at tiffany and they don't realize how dark the movie actually is so to be dressed up in that costume representing trans rights by saying

you are a female in that costume and then to make fun of where beer is consumed did not make sense for the brand. And it's it it's one thing to say in a simple way that Bud Light and LGBTQ rights may not make sense from a brand alignment perspective. But it's another when you just make an absolute error on the way in which you're executing because now the three of us are confused on what even Bud Light was trying to do. And that's what I'm saying with Lou Lemon. as well is I don't know what they stand for. I don't know what they're trying to convey and I don't know who their customer is. And that's a problem. But light should have hired you. Well, the problem is I think again, like back to keeping it simple. And again, like this is not to be charred. I mean,

again, people on the internet are wild. But I think all of these things are worth being studied because to your point, I think a lot of people are very confused amongst a lot of brands on what many of these brands stand for, right? Like, which is fine. Like, listen, you're going to pivot. You're going to change. You're going to get interested in different things. I get that.

Like, so do we. But if everybody's confused all the time, you're just going to over time, diminish and kill the business. But don't you guys think that there's also a micro moment of this where there's influencers that feel like that they have to placate to everyone and they have to get everyone and they have to create all the content and, oh, they're doing wellness, fitness. Now they have to do beauty. I also feel like this is also trickling down to personal brand and people.

And I think that's the conversation that should be talked about too. Because I think Melissa Wood Health is a beautiful example of someone who's shown up every day. And like she's done her workout. She showed you like her smoothie that she's eating. It's like wellness, wellness, wellness. It's consistency. I know exactly what to expect when I go to her page. But there's a lot of influencers that try to just because everyone's doing this, they do this.

Or everyone's doing this trend. They hop on this. and it's confusing and the message is hard to digest for the consumer that's consuming the influence of content. I think it's also, it's not just big brand. Quick break to talk about one of our longest running show partners, one of our favorite services, one of our favorite brands, and that is Thrive Market. Thrive Market has been our go-to for all of our grocery and household essentials for years now. I think since the history of this show, we might be going on seven, eight years running using Thrive Market. OG listeners will remember

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all of the cleanest, all of the best ingredients. We recently just had dinner with Mark Sisson, who's the founder of Primal Kitchen, and we were both talking about how great Thrive Markets been as a company and as a partner for so long. Outside of finding the best products, best ingredients, and saving some money, you are also helping a family in need with their one-for-one membership matching program. They've done this for years. It's an incredible program. You can join and they give.

So check out one of the best brands and best services on the market. Join in on the savings with Thrive Mark today and get 30% off your first order, plus a free $60 gift. Go to Thrivemarket.com slash skinny for 30% off your first order plus a free $60 gift. That's T-H-R-I-V-E market.com slash skinny. Thrivemarket.com slash skinny. We are far from perfect, but we try to be thoughtful. You don't think I'm perfect?

We try to be thoughtful in what we share and not only what we share, but how we share it. Like if I'm going to comment on something, I'm not going to, I'm not going to repost what everybody else is, like, I want to be thoughtful about the message that's coming from me specifically. Does that make sense? Totally. And I think a lot of people, they have this knee-jerk reaction. I'm shit, am I going to be late? Am I going to do it in time? Am I going to catch flack if I don't do it? All of that. And we've seen this in all sorts of different areas. And they're not actually thoughtful. So again, nobody really knows what you actually mean. Are you just, are you aligning with a certain side or the other? Do you believe that? Do you not? Tell me what you actually think

if you really think something. And if not, maybe it's time to sit back and reflect and stay out of the I saw somebody post the other day. There was a guy, and I won't name him, but he was getting some flak for not sharing about something that was going on in the world. And he had a very elegant response. He said, you know, I've made it a habit for his business and brand to not comment on something that he knows absolutely nothing about. And I wish more people did that, or at least skipped a beat and took the time to learn

and be thoughtful about the things that they choose to share about. Does that make sense? And I completely agree with that. But I wouldn't even go a stuff further. say, I would rather people, you want people to speak and to think with intention. Like, I think that's important when you're, you're not able to have a conversation. And that's the problem with social media is, you know, you put out three sentences and it lacks context, right? And that's where it is difficult when you're in your guys' chairs. But I also think that on what I really respect that you guys do,

and I want more people to do is to actually say what they think. And I think that's another really frustrating place for where I am and the conversations that I want to have is I want to have discussions that are difficult and I don't I don't assume that I'm perfect. Like I want to enter into them to actually have a discussion and to potentially disagree and to come out of it without thinking I'm I'm only right but finding a way to shape and to change my opinion. And even when we're talking about the Dylan Mulvini with the Bud Light, I would was really afraid to put that video out because I was afraid of kind of the facelessness of the internet. And the only people that were horrible were truly were not Bud Light's customers. And I've had this

conversation with so many people. And those who were so passionate about, this is crazy. People are disgusting. The fact that this, that the shareholders tanked and Kidrock did this. Like, this is gross. I can't believe it. Like, this is archaic. And I'm like, are you their customer? You know, like, why does this matter to you? Like, are you someone? that's actually buying from it or are you just are you just standing on on a principle for somebody else? And I had an enormous amount of transgender people reach out after that video like privately because I didn't want to post a comment like an enormous amount that were like, we're so thankful that actually someone spoke for us because that message actually didn't even represent our community.

And I think that that's why it, a part of me doesn't like to be disagreeable and to be in the hot seat to say it. But we have to have these conversations because they can't happen. behind closed doors. I also think there has to be fluidity of people to be able to change their mind. Yes. Because I said five days ago that I love, you know, meat cooked medium doesn't mean today I can't say, you know what? I changed my mind. I like a raw steak tartar. That's great about your brand. I think that there is no, there is no space for people to have flexibility of mindset shift. Well, we're unapologetic about sharing our truthful opinions with the firm also promise that if we get corrected or our minds change, we'll also share that. Does that make sense? Yeah.

Like, I think it's very, you know, like we talk to so many different people and I'm hearing your perspective. Somebody may come on next week and share a different perspective and change my mind or at least give me a different perspective. Like, oh, I didn't think about that before. But I can't, I can't be in a position where I'm scared all the time to actually voice what I'm thinking in the moment or at the time. Also surrounding yourself with content that maybe, like, you know, you don't always agree with. It doesn't need to be everything doesn't need to be so agreeable. I think you're right about what you said about Budweiser. Are they the client? No, and then often not. And it's also to say that Bud Light did a bad job on that ad isn't to say you're anti-trans. And I think that's the other thing, too, that's really frustrating is even to say that I don't think Lou Lemon did a good job with that,

that ambassador doesn't mean I'm I'm a fat shamer and I'm I'm anti something. But isn't there an undertone that makes people feel like that? It's what they want. It's wild. It's what they want. It's wild. They want to cancel you. They want to write you off. And we have to have conversation, especially when we're talking about how we buy.

Like, was it, who is that actor that's like little guy, super funny? Danny DeVito. No, he's like. he is a great actor and he is he's great no the other one he's not short no the short one

a lot of them are short Kevin Hart because Kevin Hart did this about Lulu Lemon I dare you say that about Kevin Hart No I think Kevin Hart's hilarious but he made this whole bit

about Lulu Lemon and he's like and he was like why are you making me feel guilty before I even walk into the store to buy leggings like why did why did painted on leggings

become social justice issues and I and I agree with you. Like, why do we become bad people to have this conversation when I go into Lulu Lemon now and I'm like, I don't know anymore what this brand stands for. Like, they've got great leggings. I may buy two or three things, but I'm overwhelmed by how many items are in the store. And I feel this.

I think that they're going to outlet malls. Like, they're going to be gone in the next five years because they've just barfed on their brand. Barf on the brand. That's the name of your book. You've barfed on your brand. Where do you think that if our audience is listening, that they can make some small tweaks and what they're doing to refine their message, just little tiny things that they can do that they're listening.

They want to do it right. They want to do the marketing that is simple, classic. What are little tiny tweaks that they can do? And also, maybe you can talk about paid advertisement if you believe in that. Okay. Well, I think your first, like, what I really really is. comes down to is authenticity, right? Like we're, we are so hungry for authentic connection through the digital world that it's the best time to be truly you. And what that means changes for each

person. So trying to be, I see so much in marketing that it's very templated and it's very hard for me to get to know who the person that's selling is. And it's tough for your question because really your approach to marketing should be specific to what you're trying to sell and what your goals are, like what the plan is. But if you're someone that is selling a service, it should be really authentic and true to you. And it should feel very genuine. And it should feel a bit uncomfortable because being authentic in an interaction that you can't control is intimidating and overwhelming. So being authentic, being true to you, trying to find a way that is uncomfortable, but still that you can, even I want to say you can live with. But like, I almost want to like beat you up.

and because most people are so good at what they do and they're so bad at marketing themselves because the best or the worst at marketing themselves. So getting uncomfortable is where you're going to succeed. Paid ads, yes. I mean, at the end of the day, like we're in a numbers game. So like you need reach. But what that reach means changes for each person. Like it's what you talked about earlier. Like if your goal is just have a really successful blog, you don't need a million eyeballs. But if you're selling this bottle of water, having 30 customers isn't the same, right? So paid ad strategy makes sense. What's so cool about the digital world is that it's never been easier to advertise at an audience that you can, that you can sizably range.

So we work with businesses that for them success is a million dollars. We work with companies for them success is a billion dollars, right? And that kind of that changes the range in which you launch the ad and you run the ad and you run the creative. But what I do want people to be more focused on is it doesn't, to be successful, you don't require an insane marketing budget. And that's what's so cool about 2023 is like the camera on your iPhone is so powerful. For the most part, we really want to buy through like organic UGC content that you're seeing through your eyes. So if you're in a product industry, selling products like for three second clips, showing different ways to use it, using storytelling is what's going to work

best and leverage and trying things out like test test test test and test like you no longer have to have a half a million dollar TV ad that's going to be perfect that you need to run on TV with a million dollar ad spend you can create an ad in in two hours and run it for 25 dollars and see how it performs so it's it's creating content it's focusing on what your goal is and creating things that makes sense for what your outcome is going to be because that's another issue is that I see a whole lot of shit. So, like, there's like, they're testing 10 ads, but they're just like 10 different varieties of garbage. Like, think about if you're constantly inundated with buy, buy, buy, buy, by, buy messages, what's actually going to peak your interest? Like, what's going to get you to

stop? What's actually going to make you look? And if you can come up with three different versions of that idea and run it with $25, you're golden. Didn't you, Michael used to do Facebook advertising back in the day. you told me that there was this one weird ad that like hit. And it was like the woman with like bad lighting in her bathroom. Well, I think like, I mean, this is like early days of stuff. Yeah, I think like, I mean, I'm sure it's changing. I've been out of that world for so long. But it was like it was always the stuff that would hit for us is the stuff we never expected to hit.

It was like the stuff that was like not so. It was not polished. It was not polished. It was not fancy. It was relatable. It was stuff that people would scroll. Yeah. People would scroll past it and feel like they just like stumbled on a feet.

But not fake chaotic real like some people do. That's another thing. You got like fake manufactured chaos to make it look like it's real. Real in the real sense of the word real. And that's even like again, just to preface again the Lul Lemon comics, I know people are going to come from me. Like be real. Like I'm not asking for you to have like supermodels that that are that may do yoga on the weekends. Like use real people. it works, but just real to your brand. Like, what's the plan? Again, like, the reason I find this conversation interesting, well, there's a bunch of reasons,

but like, I don't think this is a commentary on what we believe people should be doing or not doing personally or what they, you know, what's socially acceptable or unacceptable. I think it's a study on like what is actually working for businesses and marketing and what is not. And like for me, and especially in the role that you're in, if my job is to say, let's drive long-term success for a business, like these are conversations that need to be brought to light because I think we're in an interesting time where people and brands are especially confused about what they should talk about, when they should talk about it, how they should talk about it, what issues they should jump into, which issues they should stay out of, again, what their customers want from them and don't want from them. And it's something that I think it's new, right? Like people are, this this landscape has changed and things move really fucking fast. And I can understand the fears that people running these organizations have for taking missteps. But again, going back to authenticity, you're like, hey, that didn't work for us. That was a misstep. I think people are understanding. It's when you go too far down the other side and you're like, I'm just doing a bunch of shit to see

what sticks. That's when people are like, what the fuck is. Or if you're fearful and you're just trying to like, you're trying to fight the fear and you're not actually being authentic with what you actually believe you're just trying to check a box. People can feel it. Totally. I also, like this David Ogilby quote, I live by is people tell you what they feel, not what they think. And so many businesses are are missing the forest for the trees because they're so focused on what they think people are feeling opposed to what they're really thinking. And you get a very different answer. So this great book I read on, it's, I forget the name of it, but I can get it to you. I just think about alchemy and marketing. And he talks about how there was a big telecommunication company.

And they were, they were, oldly was rebranding them. And people are really pissed off. You know how, like, in the mornings or in the evenings, you get those, like, windows for, like, when the service call is going to show up and how pissed off people were for the service call because they they felt like they were handcuffed to like not being able to go to get groceries or like go into the shower because the moment they went into the shower is when the like service provider was going to show up and they were so what people were saying or they were feeling is that they wanted to have like a specific window like an exact like hour range so they knew how they had the control their morning if they were going to take the day off work but it was actually impossible for a massive telecommunication company

to give the exact appointment slot of when the service provider was going to show up, because there's so many factors that went into the daily service calls that they couldn't actually tell you when the person was going to show up. So what people actually thought was that they would prefer just to have some kind of indication. So what they did instead of spending billions of dollars in the long run to hire more service providers to give you a specific like window is they just sent a text message update. And like AAA does this and CAA does this, where they'll let you know on your robert. roadside assistance that your service person will be there five minutes from now. That simple

technological solution fixed actually what people were feeling, but more what they were thinking, which they weren't actually saying when they were pissed off in their reviews and the sentiment of when they were calling. And that's why Uber designed their screen to actually tell you when the Uber driver was showing up. Because the most frustrating part for when you hired a taxi before Uber is you didn't know when the taxi driver was going to show up. So now by seeing it on Uber, like, you don't actually really care if it's 10 minutes. You know that it's 10 minutes. And you can actually, you can track it on the map. So, I took it a step further and they added the don't talk to me thing. Because then people were like, well, I don't want to get in the car and pay for my time and have someone talk my ear off.

Opposed to hiring taxi drivers that just didn't want to talk to you, they just give to you the input to say, this is actually, and it kind of goes to what you're saying of like, it's not what people feel and what they think are two very different things. And I think we as a society have become really we're changing for the better, I hope. And I think we are more kind. Like we want to be more. I don't meet too many people that I find are horrible on the face of it. And I think a lot of the headlines are, it's the clickbait. It's feeding into the society is going to a horrible place.

But I think for the most part, we're changing for the better. And we need to move away from what we actually think people want, opposed to what they, feel people want, opposed to what they actually want. Arnold Schwarzenegger just did a post today and he was like, I'm going to paraphrase it and it's not exactly what he said, but the essence of it was, you know, don't forget that sometimes the loudest, angriest voices on the internet are very small pockets of society. And if you go out into the real world and take your head out of a screen and actually try to find those people in real life, it's hard to find them.

Most people are kind and accepting and are just trying to live their best. live and get through, you know, they have their own issue. I don't think you're a horrible person. Yeah. And so it's like I think again, this is a really great tool and you can be used for a lot of things. But if you get so sucked into it, which again, I think a lot of these companies do, you forget that the majority of people are mostly reasonable, kind-hearted people that are just trying to do the best that they can do in their own lives. And it doesn't cost anything to leave a really angry and mean comment. Like it doesn't cost the same as like me looking in your face and being like,

I think you're a horrible human being. Especially from a troll faceless account. Yeah. But like literally like and I think it's like Scott Galloway that talks about this. Like we should have passports to create social media accounts so that you're at least held to an identity so that you cannot create these bots to just like leave horrible comments on on people's pages. I feel like a lot of the bots are your ex-girlfriends. Controversial character. But like to Elon's credit on I guess what's now X, the reason he's going through all this verification process, which is now many of the platforms are due.

doing is to that point exactly. You could say whatever you want, but at least like show who you are and don't have a bunch of different troll accounts that are spamming people. So that companies aren't shutting things down and canceling when that's actually not what people want. Yeah. Like there's a feature now on X where you can only get replies from verified accounts. And some people don't like that feature, but it's basically if you want that as a creator or a brand, it means the person that are commenting is like they've been actually verified to be that person or that business, which I think is a good features, especially if you're a business and you're like, okay, I want like real feedback, authentic feedback.

Camille, you founded Third Eye Insights. Where can everyone find you? Pimp yourself out. Tell us about your TikTok, what you're working on, your website, all the stuff. I could talk to you for a long time if I didn't have to go back to my nanny. I could, I could have talked to you for another hour, to be honest. You'll have to come back on. Yeah, he'll have to come back on next time you're here.

Where can everyone find you? Pimp yourself up. I think the best place is my TikTok. My name. It's Camille Moore. Third Eye Insights is the agency, which is really bomb. But the algorithm doesn't love learning from a team of faces. It really likes a siloed individual. So if you want to learn more about my thoughts and you like what I've got to say, Camille Moore is a great way to find me on Instagram and TikTok.

Thank you so much for coming on. I think that that was such a colorful conversation. I loved it. I hope you guys loved it. The comments will be riveting. Come back on anytime, next time. Two things before you go. You can watch us now on YouTube,

so you can go on YouTube, search the Skinny Confidential, and watch our entire episodes on your computer or TV. Also, you should know, Michael and I are doing a him and her newsletter. So basically it's a him and her tip of the day, five days a week. And the tips are very specific, as you can imagine.

And then we also have a monthly favorites. So basically we collect all our monthly favorites, everything we've bought and used and tried, and put it in one monthly newsletter for you. To subscribe to the him and her tip newsletter, all you have to do is go to tscpodcast.com. That's tscpodcast.com.