The Bossticks - How To Build & Monetize An Online Brand w/ Brittany Krystle - The Business Of Podcasting, Podcast Monetization, Distribution, Marketing, & Growth

Episode Date: February 5, 2019

#167: On this episode Michael sits down with his friend and fellow podcaster Brittany Krystle to discuss how to build and monetize brands online. Brittany Krystle is a personal brand and growth expert as well as the host of a podcast called Beyond Influential. When Brittany interviews she goes deep, and during this interview she doesn't fail to deliver. The tables are turned on Michael as he is asked all things podcasting, the future of audio, podcast monetization, influencer brands, & how to grow a business online.  Look out for Lauryn's follow up interview on Brittany's Beyond Influential Podcast To Connect with Brittany click HERE To connect with Lauryn Evarts click HERE To connect with Michael Bosstick click HERE Read More on The Skinny Confidential HERE To Call the Him & Her Hotline call: 1-833-SKINNYS (754-6697) For Detailed Show Notes click HERE This episode is brought to you by Misfit Wearables and their brand new smartwatch, Misfit Vapor 2. This smartwatch has it all. Right now for our listeners, Misfit is offering an exclusive offer of 5 FREE replacement straps with purchase. Just head over to misfit.com/theskinnyconfidential and enter promo code SKINNY to redeem.    

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Ladies, don't let your man down for Valentine's Day. She's a lifestyle blogger extraordinaire. Fantastic. And he's a serial entrepreneur. A very smart cookie. And now Lauren Everts and Michael Bostic are bringing you alone for the ride. Get ready for some major realness. Welcome to the skinny confidential, him and her.

Welcome back to the show, everybody. Welcome back. Here we are. Lourne's got her headphone on all crooked-wise because what's going on with your ear over there? Okay, so I got my ear pierced at Body Electric with Wellness Mama. Wellness Mama took me and I got a cartilage piercing another one because I've had two and then I got a third ear piercing. Take it easy with those things. No, no, no, I love it. I'm addicted. No, but last time, don't it get infected last time? No, one time it got infected, but that was not because of anything other than the fact that I wore a podcast headphone after I got it pierced, which is why I'm wearing it. So that's why you're wearing it like this.

You also got a little bit of a black pepper in your tooth. We've got a lot going on right now. Welcome back, everybody. Here we are another week of the show. We're back, we're live, black peppers and all. This episode is kind of a plot twist, guys. It's kind of something different. it's something that I actually found really interesting and I listened to on my own.

Well, isn't that a surprise? Found me interesting for once. It's not going to be that different in the sense that you're still going to be hearing my voice. So for those of you that are out there saying, like, man, that guy's just got the most soothing, sexy voice I've ever heard. You're in for another treat because here comes some more of it. It's a little bit of what do you don't call it a solo episode, right? No, it's a conversation with our friend, Brittany Crystal. we wanted to put this episode on our podcast because we were really impressed with the way she interviewed.

And I think that my whole platform and our whole podcast is about uplifting other people and not just making it about us day after day after day because how fucking boring would that be. And Brittany Crystal came to the studio, Dear Media. She drove all the way from Orange County to interview us. And she was so prepared and she interviewed us separately. and we just thought that this is such a good example to shine light on a fellow hustler. She also used to work for Gary Vee, right, honey? I think that's how we originally got introduced.

She worked for our friend Gary Vaynerchuk, who obviously is the CEO of VaynerMedia. She was hitting up personal brand and growth over there, and now she's a personal brand growth expert, really big on LinkedIn, really knows her shit. But yeah, like Lauren said, it's rare that I'm on the other side of the interview table, and it felt strange. I felt like I was actually talking too much. What the fuck are you talking about? I interview you every day. Yeah, well, that's more of an interrogation than interview.

Yeah, I felt like it was strange because I'm used to sitting on the other side of the table and asking questions and then I had it flipped. And so it was definitely a different dynamic. I think there's so many tips in here. It's all about how to build a brand, a career, a business online. There's so much value dropped. I'm just going to shout Michael out. And I think that the way Brittany interviewed Michael was in a very prepared manner. And I appreciate that.

You could tell she knew what she was talking about. her questions weren't guess or no answers. You know, interviewing really is an art, and it's something that I continue to have to work on and perfect. It's a craft. And to have someone show up so prepared and so, you know, ready to ask Michael the right questions was really cool to listen to. Well, it's always interesting, you know, you start to do, let's say like maybe like, I don't want to say PR mode, but you start to get, you start to do a lot of interviews. And what happens is you start to get asked a lot of the same questions. And we talk about this a lot internally at your media as like as somebody who's interviewing.

or when we're coaching people to interview or consulting with people how to interview, you always want to let them know, like, what are the unique questions? What are the unique angles? Because what happens is it's not the, you know, everyone sees that meme of Lady Gaga where she's answering the same question the same way 50 times. It's not that she's trying to do that. It's just when the questions are the same type of questions over and over again. You kind of go into robot mode.

You know, I'm sure, Lauren, it's happened with you when people say like, hey, how did you get the skinny confidential started? Like, what was the reason? Like, you kind of go into robot mode. Totally. I really liked the podcast that I did recently with Taylor Strecker. It's called Taste to Taylor. Have to shout her out. She was really good at interviewing. She's had so much experience under her belt. She was on Serious Forever. And now she has her own podcast. And she asked hard-hitting questions. And we talked about

a lot of things that I don't normally talk about on a podcast. So definitely check her out too. She's one to watch. And Brittany also interviewed me as well. And I think that that's going to be up next week. So with that, let's do a little introduction on Brittany. So Brittany interviewed. use thought leaders, entrepreneurs, creators, and influencers all about the power of influence and how you can use that power to build a massive brand. Her podcast is called Beyond Influential and is doing very well on the iTunes charts. On this specific episode, you'll learn about how to create a podcast, so many questions on this, how to monetize a podcast, what it takes to connect with a dedicated audience, how to build a team, how to stay patient, and how to turn a side hustle into a main hustle.

You guys will also learn about how to focus on a specific medium to grow and where to focus your energy when building a new brand. So definitely be sure to listen to this interview and then look out for my interview coming soon on Brittany's badass podcast. Again, it's called Beyond Influential. Before we get into the interview with Brittany and Michael, let's talk about misfit wearables, specifically the misfit vapor too, which is the improved version of the misfit vapor. So here's what you want to do here. You want to get the rose tone with the rose tone stainless steel bracelet. It's the best, especially for Valentine's Day. And what I like to do with things like this is I like to DM Michael on Instagram. So it's like hint, hint, nudge, this is what I want. And then you can spin it and be like, oh, yeah, you can also switch the band out so you can wear it and they can get the jet black. You know, so there's like different bands on the watch. It works like a charm. Anyways, the whole thing here is that the Vapor 2 is a fashionable and functional smart watch that you can carry throughout your day.

So you can go from Pilates to happy hours, sweating to chips and salsa, work to a hot, spicy date night. You get the drift. My personal favorite about this watch is that it keeps you super connected. So you have everything from texting to calling, to emailing, to apps, to music, to GPS, and more. but to be honest, the best thing about this watch, and I've talked about it many times, is that it counts my steps. So you have this cute rose-toned watch, counting your steps, your multitasking, and the one that I mentioned above is by far my favorite. Definitely, it's, again, the rose tone with the rose-tone stainless steel bracelet. There has been so many Harvard studies.

I've actually researched this and wrote about it on the skinny confidential that talk about how fantastic it is to count. your steps. It's going to motivate you. It's going to up your fitness level and it's going to keep you accountable, which is so important, guys. Personally, I'm parking farther away from Whole Foods, if you know what I mean. I'm like an extra 10 steps here, another 14 and a half here. Then you can go brag to your friends and your boyfriend about your step count. Be careful your boyfriend will steal your watch because the straps do switch out. Right now, misfit.com is offering an amazing deal of 20% off misfit vapor two. Their biggest sale ever on the product. And exclusively for TSC listeners, Misfit is offering five free straps with purchase.

So you can customize the whole look. All you have to do is head over to misfit.com slash the skinny confidential and inner promo code Skinny to redeem. This is the skinny confidential, him and her. So Michael Bostic is the CEO of Dear Media, a podcast network focusing on female hosts and voices. He's also the co-host of the skinny confidential, him and her podcast. He's a serial entrepreneur in his own right, which we're going to get into. His Lauren Everts is better half. Better half, do you like that? I would be described as that by most. I had a great conversation with Michael around six months ago about podcasting that I wish was recorded. We should have

recorded that. We completely should have recorded about it. I'm completely bummed, but I'm so happy that I'm here today at Dear Media Studios. It's beautiful. Thank you for, well, you're here anyway. Thank you for inviting me here. Thank you for doing this with me. So can you tell the audience a little bit about who you are in your background and up to what you do now? Sure. That's a fully loaded question because over time, I feel like I've done a lot of different things. I started, I thought I was going to be in real estate. My family was in real estate. My dad was a developer. Uncle was a general contractor. And I thought that that was going to be my path, right? I started doing residential remodels, renting out residential units in college. And then when I got out, I started to work on commercial

buildings, primarily a commercial dental building. This was right around 2008, which was not the optimal time to be in real estate. Great time for real estate. So quickly got my face smashed in in that industry. And from there, I partnered with my dad. We started a basically at the time was a side business called Jetbed. It still exists today. It's going on its 11th year. And that business makes primarily beds for like exactly what it sounds like beds for corporate and private aircraft. And that started completely as a side thing. And this is an interesting segment to talk about because I feel like a lot of the things that I've done in my life has started as a side thing just out of necessity and have over time turned into main things. So like I said, Jetbed. We're running that business still run it

to this day. I have a little bit more hands off just because of my most recent role with dear media. But from there, you know, I got into the audio space podcast space because my wife, Lauren, who I know you're going to be interviewing soon and who I've described as the worst half, unfortunately. She started a blog channel back, it's been close to eight, nine years ago before that hot word influencer was thrown around really. It was just blogger, writer. And because of my experience, both in the digital marketing space and running a business, I was kind of just consulting and helping her along the way, very much her own thing. But she started getting a lot of inbound like, hey, what's, you know, what's the day to day like? What's, you know, this answer to this question? What does

Michael do? What are his answers? And so I said, you know, I'm not the best on social and responding. I don't post as much as I probably should, which I'm sure you're going to ask me about. But she, she was like, you know, you got to really respond to this. You want to watch some guest posts. You want to do some email stuff. And I said, you know, I'm really busy. I don't know if I can do that. But what's interesting to me is a podcast. I grew up listening to people like Howard Stern. I just love having. Yeah, he's the best. And I said, let's try a podcast. A big influence of ours was guys like Gary V. We were on his show and Tim Ferriss. And I said, I think I can do that. I think that I like to talk. And it's something that I would be not just decent at, but

but also passionate about. So we said, let's start the podcast. We're going on our 170th episode, just on our own show. Show has done an amazing job growing. And from there, I said, you know, this space needs an update. Let's update it. And we started a podcast network called Dear Media, which now represents close to 30 shows, primarily female-focused,

primarily catering to people that come from the digital YouTube, blog, social space, and now adding audio into their mediums. So you've had a very eclectic background. How involved are you in Jetbed? And I guess how has that helped you transition into the role you're in now? So I've done, and I think this is important for entrepreneurs to understand and to know when you're starting a business. I have done every single possible thing that there is to do in that business. Right.

I remember starting it and figuring out like, okay, how do you design this product? How does it get made? Like what's the right manufacturer? Then everything down to the shipping. I remember there was before we had anybody. It was me driving around in a U-Haul truck. hiring a couple buddies of day wages to say, hey, can you help me send these beds out? And then from there, implementing the systems for how you actually interact and sell to customers,

what that flow looks like in the back end for that company. And then over the years, building out production and customer service and sales and all of that. So I ran that company as CEO from probably 2009 until, I would say, early last year. And now I'm a little bit more of a limited role, probably more of like a CFO type. but that's just because, you know, the company is a well-old machine, has been going for a long time. I'm still very involved, but not on the day-to-day as much. And I'm not sure if it was you were your father who came up with that,

but how did, I guess how did you even find that niche? My dad was a pilot. And so he said, listen, there's got to be a better way to do this. You have a lot of high-net-worth individuals that don't have a comparable sleep solution. There were no beds and jets. There was beds, but they basically was kind of like a piecemeal. You know how you push two couches together. you turn seats around, you lay on it. So, you know, you got these guys that are flying in these

amazing aircraft, and they're really kind of sleeping on a system that was like pushing two couches together. So we said, let's create something better. Definitely his idea, and I was charged with basically the operations and implementing how that whole company would run. So I know you also do a lot of direct-to-consumer marketing. How did you get involved in that? And I kind of want to talk about Wu a little bit. I know that's a product that you've come out with, and just what your relationship is to that and explain what Wu is to the audience. So Wu, my partner, Weston, my wife and I, Lauren, are founding partners in that, but it definitely not involved as much in the day to day. Weston runs that company as a CEO.

That is definitely a niche market in the sexual wellness space. And we basically created that brand because there was not a brand that was speaking to a lot of millennial women online, empowering women to feel confident in the bedroom. And also, there was nothing that we really saw that spoke to anybody on social. You're not going to go and take some of these nasty, you know, Lou brands and put them on your Instagram feed or feel confident, putting them on your bedside table. So we created Wu to speak to that millennial woman who wanted to talk about sex, feel empowered to talk about sex.

And really, we just kind of use the feedback in our expertise in, you know, the digital marketing space and how social works to say, okay, let's try this as an experiment. And again, another side thing that kind of turned into a main thing. But I can't take all the credit because Weston's really running that thing. So just so people have an idea, How long did it take from idea to actually getting that to market? So I think one of the things that I talk about a lot on the show is that I'm somebody who launches things really quickly and I adjust on the way.

Like if you take the podcast, for example, that if you go back and listen to our early shows, they are cringe-worthy. And I leave them- I listen to all of those early shows. I don't think they're that cringeworthy, but I think compared to where you are now. I think, yeah, looking back now, because if you, like, say you tuned in to, like, you know, now we're in a beautiful studio and it's highly produced in the segments and you, you know, you learn how to talk a little bit more. But those early ones, there's a lot of interruptions. We're in a big open echoey room. Or sometimes you'd be in like a closet or something. We were in a closet. I like those because it was like, I knew it was you guys. Yes. Yeah.

So everything I've done in my life, I said, let's just get this out, get the audience feedback or customer feedback and adjust from there. And that was really challenging for Lauren and I in the beginning because she's somebody that puts so much detail and effort into the content that she produces, that if it's not up to her standard, that can be really challenging for her. For me, I'm like, listen, we need to go quick because people are going to jump in. And, you know, I really firmly believe that there's no unique ideas anymore. I believe if you have an idea, somebody else probably has that same idea, and it really comes down to execution.

And so my model's always been get it out there and adjust along the way. Same thing with Jetbed. When we launched our first products, we thought it was perfect. In that first year, we had a ton of flaws with those products. Beds were breaking. Beds were, there's an air portion on the bed. It was burst. customers are unhappy. And you can imagine somebody that's flying in a, you know, $50 million

aircraft. You give them something that breaks while I was using it. They're not happy. So you have to, in my opinion, you have to launch fast and then listen to your customer or audience feedback and adjust because without doing that you don't know. And if you're constantly waiting for that perfection at launch or that launch perfection, you end up never launching and talking yourself out of it. And then before you know it, you've missed the boat. It's so true. And that brings me to the podcast because your podcast has been an evolution. the people you bring on, have evolved the topics you talk about evolve. What was the goal or the dream getting started? And how has it evolved for you? Sure. So we started the podcast with no intention

to monetize the podcast at all for the first couple years, right, or the first, you know, 50, 60 episodes. It wasn't even a thought. We started it because we were getting so much inbound on social that I knew we couldn't keep up with. And at the time, if you remember, Snapchat was kind of blowing up. And so it was a little bit easier to kind of send somebody a video response or, you know, a text response real quick that I know that exists still on Snapchat and a lot on Instagram. But still, you know, at scale, you can imagine that just becomes overwhelming and you can't get back to everybody and you really want to because I think, you know, kind of a tangent here, influencers or people in the influencer space make a huge mistake not interacting with the

people that have given them platform, right? And that's something that, not to cut you off, but your wife does probably one of the best that I've ever seen. aside from like a Gary who even now probably doesn't even get back as quickly as he can, even as he'd want, Lauren is excellent at it. The biggest mistake people in that space make is they start to get so big that they forget the people who made them that big, right? And they don't respond.

And it's kind of like, what are you doing and why are you in this space if you're not there to engage? That's just fundamentally true. So I said, okay, this is not scalable trying to respond one-on-one. And I don't have time with everything else going on to just writing constant content. And I didn't, not only time, that's a bad excuse. I didn't think that I would be into doing that type of content. So I said, let's do this podcast so that we can reach a broader audience.

The whole show started as listener question submissions. If you listen to those first 20, 30 episodes, it's all based on listener questions, which we still do sometime. And I felt like, okay, if Samantha in this state has this question, there's probably a lot of other people that have a similar question. And maybe if we answer it this way, we can reach a broader audience. So that's how it started. over time, just like anything else, for Lauren and I, we have to be interested in the conversation in the topic. We get, as you can imagine, there's a lot of different PR pictures that come through. This author has a new book. This person has a new show. This person's got a new product.

And for us, we tend to stay away from those types of conversations. It has to be something that we actually, excuse my language, give a shit about. And if we don't, then we can't have a good So I always tell, you know, people that are getting into the podcast space, like my first priority is to the audience, second priority is to the guest and then third priority is to me. A lot of people get that confused and they say, okay, I come first, then my guest and then the audience last. For us, we put the audience first. Was the goal to build something together? The goal, I think, like from a relationship standpoint, Lauren and I have always liked doing things together. We're together all the time. We spend a lot of time. It's definitely not one of those

things where it's like I'm gone all day and she's doing something else that we don't communicate. So this was just something as we've got busier to keep us connected throughout the day and also a project to work on. And I love working with my wife and partnering with her. It's a different type of partnership than anything else. Right? You're sharing the same household. You're sharing the same income.

It feels deeper than a typical partnership. So it's just something that we do together and have fun at. And I think it's made for an interesting dynamic too because because of that him and her perspective, Sometimes I can get away with questions that maybe other men couldn't. And same with her. Maybe she can get away with questions that women wouldn't. And you can kind of get into some interesting dynamics when you're taking that male-female approach. And I want to talk about who your, I guess your audience was then versus who your audience is now.

I know early on, you know, leveraging Lauren's brand, the skinny confidential, way more, you know, a lot of health, a lot of wellness, a lot of people that maybe you don't resonate with as often or as much. and now it seems like there's maybe a good balance of people you guys resonate with. How did, I guess from your perspective, how did you deal that? When I was a little boy, I dreamed that I would speak to the millennial woman about health and beauty tips. I knew it. Yeah. No, it's definitely we, listen, you got to go where audience is.

And it wasn't one of those things like, I mean, we're sitting in the studio right now and you look in the logo for our show. They both look fantastic. Bright pink background. I was very secure and confident with who we were speaking to. primarily skinny confidential audience or readers. Is that a certain age? Do you know?

I think at the time it was probably, you know, 21 to 28. I think over time now it's skewed up. I think we still reach, you know, 22, 23. But our audience has grown up with the brand, right? Like you have, we can really range from 35, 36 up to the 40s. I mean, we have people, there's a woman that we interact with regularly who's in her 50s. I think that where content producers make mistakes is they start. start really, really broad, and then they end up not reaching anybody. So what we did was we started

very, very targeted, talking about a specific set of things, answering listener questions, very primarily health and wellness. But over time, your audience craves more, right? They want to know how this element of your life works or what kind of business you're doing or like how trial, whatever the subject is, you're able to expand once you've kind of captured that core. And so the show's evolved as the audience has evolved and as their interest has evolved. So talk to me a little bit about the podcast process and how you guys do it. If you guys batch, and I know how you told me you think about yes, but is that a conversation between you and Lauren?

Do you sit down once a month? Or how does that work? So we definitely try to batch as much as we can because of our schedules. That can be difficult sometimes, again, because of the schedules. But we try to have multiple shows in the pipeline. We have six episode releases per month. We used to do four. Now it's grown to six just because.

the show's grown a little bit. Basically, the interview process is Lauren and I sit down and say, would this person be really interesting to talk to? Would, you know, maybe there's a book that we read and we're like, hey, wow, that was really interesting. Let's get that author. Or maybe there's something going on. And it doesn't always have to be like a celebrity or a well-known name.

Like we've had people on that you would maybe have never thought about, but they're just interesting people than cover interesting topics. So we just, like, the core of it is like, are we actually interested in the conversation and would our audience find value in a conversation if we could extract the right questions. And I don't know if it's changed since you created, since you created Dear Media, but I guess what do you use? Do you use Libson? What are your platforms?

And where is everything distributed? So currently with Dear Media, that's a fully loaded question. Yeah, we're on Libson Pro right now. We like that hosting platform. Not sure if that'll change. What I love about podcasting and what's different about podcasting than, say, social, like YouTube, Instagram, Facebook, LinkedIn, is that you don't control those platforms, right? Those platforms are dependent on what those platforms decide to do.

And I hate when people whine about algorithms. But if Instagram changes an algorithm, of course, you're at the mercy. If Facebook changes, if it becomes a pay-to-play platform, which it looks like it has, you're at the mercy engagement. What I love about podcasting is we really don't give a shit who wins in the space because the way we hosted is, you know, you could be listening to this show right now on, you know, Spotify, you can listen on iTunes. You could be listening on Google, Overcast, Stitcher, like SoundCloud, all of these platforms.

We distribute everywhere that people listen audio. And so we really don't have a dog in the fight on who wins. We just care that people are listening on any of the platforms they choose. And also we control that content now. And we'll come back to talking about those platforms, but I want to talk about Dear Media. Can you tell me when that seed of an idea form that you wanted to create your own network? Sure. Lauren and I knew nothing about the podcast space jumping in other than we liked the medium,

we liked audio, we knew that people primarily listened to it on Apple. So the process of trying to figure out, okay, what equipment do you use and that's changed over time and how do you record and how do you distribute? That was all a learning process. As we scaled the show and as it gained some popularity, we were approached by a network. I won't name the network because you probably don't have a lot of nice things to say. People can probably figure it out if they go back and look. And we joined a network.

We said, okay, now we've made it. We're going to get a great partnership. We're going to get distribution, marketing. We're going to have a chance to monetize the show in the right way. And it ended up just being a really bad experience. Not like we were sitting in the corner crying, but in my opinion, they didn't understand the space that we come from, which is like the blog, social video space. I didn't understand how you interact with audiences there, how you interact with brands there,

how you present brands on those channels. They didn't understand how you market those channels. And so what it ended up being is just this experience where this particular network wanted us to saturate our show with five or six ads. And yes, the money could be good. But we're like, listen, that's not what it's about. We were trying to create a valuable show for the audience. And it was very contentious. And it was contentious primarily not because the people were bad people.

They just didn't understand the, what I would call the digital space as it existed at the time. Right. They were very old radio model, worked with a 60 second ad spot model, throw as many in as possible. you know, in a dark studios, it just wasn't conducive to the brand that we were building and the type of audience we wanted to reach. So I said, listen, there's got to be a better way to do this. We went back to self-producing when we got out of that contract. And the idea just kept ruminating in my head, like there's got to be a better way to do this. And lo and behold, I said, you know, this space is heating up. There's people jumping in. Audio is going to be big. I'm sure you believe in that.

And, you know, you see all these home devices and the way that you can listen. It's really the only form of existing media where you can be consuming it and doing other things, right? Like you could be flying in the car, working out, cleaning, whatever it is. And so I partnered with a company called Digital Brand Architects, which primarily manages, what we'll use that word again, influencers. And I said, listen, let's take the model of that world and marry it to audio. And so that's basically the inception of Dear Media. So what do you think and what typically in the old world does a podcast network do

versus what you do. I guess just explain it to the audience, what should be done. Before Brittany and I jump into that, we're going to take a quick break, and I'm going to let Lauren tell you about FabFit Fun. Guys, FabFit Fun is a seasonal subscription box delivered four times a year with full size, not half-ass, full-size,

fashion, beauty, home, fitness, and wellness products for just 4999 a box. And this is nuts, but every single box is guaranteed to have at least $200 in retail value. Yes, please. I feel like this is such a fun concept because it allows everyone to be in on the fun and you get full-sized products to try. So personally, for me, I'm a huge fan of skin and this box does not disappoint. It has everything from hydrogeal eye masks that you have to keep in the fridge, I might add. To eye brighteners, they have this one that's like a champagne shimmer and it pops your eyes. And then they also have glam glow masks. There's this bubble mask. And even if you're an annual member, you have a chance to get Kate Somerville's explicate, which is

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Use promo code TSC to get $10 off your first box. That's over $200 for only $39.99. Go to fapfitfund.com and use my code TSC to get $10. off your first Fab Fit Fun box. Most podcasts, I call them inventory shops, right? They sign as many shows as they can. They sell as much as that 60-second radio spot inventory as can, just like I used to do with radio syndication.

And that's how they monetize. That's their model. For us, it's like, what do we do differently? We build brand, right? Like, we're not so interested in just selling inventory. It's like, what does this show look like five years from now, 10 years from now? Not just the show, but what does that individual's brand look like? Is there live touring?

Is there a product line? Is there a book? what are the unique things that we can do differently? And so for us, leveraging all of the channels and not just podcasting has been really important. And I don't think that a lot of networks are currently doing that. Now, there's a really big push right now into the scripted area. You're seeing a lot of these true crime and you're seeing these get picked up by, you know, there's shows starting into Bravo shows and there's HBO shows.

So I think that the typical like radio model works for that because there is not as deep of a connection to the host, really. You're just going there for, you know, a specific season or a type of content. You're kind of as escapism. But for the type of shows that we primarily represent, there's a host and there's a voice and there's a spokesperson. And the audience is not just coming to listen to their show, but they want to know if they're promoting something, why they chose to promote that. Like, what filters that went through where they say, hey, you know, we like Thrive Market a lot. Why does Lauren like Thrive Market? It's so there's a deeper connection as opposed to like, you know, you're listening to a, you know, serial and all of a sudden the host says,

hey, you got to do ZipRecruiter. There's not, there's no connection there for me and for most audiences. Do you make sure that the person on your roster not only is a good fit, but actually has used the product? Yes. And also in our roster, I made them very talent friendly with that I give everybody full control over what they say yes or no. Do I could bring, you know, a massive deal to an individual and they could say, hey, it's not a good fit for my show. And we say, okay, pass. they have full control over their content they release. I may say, hey, maybe don't get on there and say the F word five times in a row that brand might not like it.

But if they say, you know what, that's my content. I'm doing that. That's their say. We are really, really upfront in the beginning when we have those conversations about what our mission and what our goal is. We tell them very upfront. Like if you're coming here to just sell ad inventory, we're probably not the right fit. That's a component of the business, but it's not the primary component.

I guess what is your vision for Dear Media as it stands today? So we want to completely change the way females are represented in this space. It's been very male dominant for a very long time. Yes. Even when I think of my favorite podcasters, aside from listening to your podcast, the majority of people who pop to minor men. Yeah. That's just what's featured. I'm constantly, and again, I won't say the platform names.

People are smart enough to deduce. You've got to be careful. I have meetings with a lot of these big platforms. And I say, you know, you're not featuring female content. Like, it's primarily male. And I wouldn't have a problem with it if it was based on like a strict listener or download metric, but it's not. There's a lot of things that go into the metric, which is why when you see people launch new shows, they launch at the top of the charts. If you see reviews, they can launch the top.

There's a lot of different factors that rank these shows. And there's been a lot of recent articles about how that's been affected. But for us, that's the primary thing is reaching female audiences, connecting female brands with the right audiences, female hosts with the right audience. And also just updating the space. I'd say like 90% of my time when I'm talking to people on the monetization side, which I know we're kind of focused on right now, it's basically me saying, no, we don't do it that way. And then coming back saying, what the hell do you mean you don't do it that way? And educating them on, hey, there's a better way to do this.

And so we've had a lot of success in that regard. And we've also probably alienated some people. Are you pitching or are they coming to you at this point for your roster? You mean for the to sign on shows? Yeah, to like let's say I'm just going to use Blue Apron because that's the first thing to pop to mind. Oh, brands. Yeah, brands. Both.

That's why it's important to build brand. But also, you know, if one of our shows says, hey, I really want to work with, you know, we're drinking Mountain Valley Spring Water here. If they say, I really want to work with them, we'll say, okay, what's the unique angle? Like, what are we going to, what kind of content can we create for this brand? And we'll go after a brand that way. So it kind of works both ways. How much, how much say do you guys give into the actual, I guess, their podcast,

or do they have complete autonomy over the entire podcast show? They have complete autonomy over the entire podcast show. We have like storytelling producers and people that would give them tips and advice and best practices on how to improve, but they have complete control. That was another thing. You know, we signed with this network and say, listen, we don't want, this is their content. Like, we live in a different age. We're not the CNN model or the, you know, the Bravo model will we own their content. We help them, we become a revenue partner.

We help them build their content. We help them amplify their content and turn into something greater. But it's their content, right? And nobody in this day and age with how easy it is to distribute content, wants. wants to be under a network that owns their stuff. Nobody wants to do that anymore. There are a lot of people listening to this podcast who want to get started in podcasting or just getting started in podcasting.

I always tell people not to start a podcast for the money. I've been doing this over a year. I knew the first year I was not even going to think about monetization. But for the people who do want to monetize, even if they have a smaller audience, what do you normally suggest? So this is tricky because people, and this happens all the time. You can imagine in my conversations. People want to know how much money they can make. right up front. They want to know how they're going to get paid. Who's going to monetize? I said,

listen, the better thing to ask is how are you going to capture audience? Because once you do that, then you have a reverse problem, what brands do you say no to? When you have on any medium, social, video, you know, whatever, blog, whatever it is, when you have a dedicated audience, the brand partnerships come. Like, that's not a, that's not the difficulty. Where people get so askewed here and where they, where they get off the path is they're so focused on the monetization side, they get their eye off like, hey, am I actually bringing valuable content to an audience that cares? I know this is cliche to say, but if you do that, the rest of the stuff falls in line. So just for people's edification now that you've worked with so many different types of podcasts,

are there certain things that you've seen across the board that work to grow an audience, that work to niche down into an audience? Sure. I think it's having a very unique point of view and not speaking too broadly, especially in new shows. You can imagine we have a lot of conversations, especially with my partnership with DBA, where there's, you know, close to 200 different women and talent represented there, you know, there's, that's a large pool of talent. But I'd say there's maybe five to 10 percent that could actually do a podcast, not that people don't know how to talk on a mic, but what is the unique perspective? The days of, hey, I'm just going to go and sit down and talk with my friends. Okay, about what? What are you serving that audience that's going to bring them value? There are so many, you know, last stat I heard, I don't know if this is true, there's half a billion podcasts in existence. What may, What points of you are you bringing that is going to stop people from listening to those other shows and say, okay, I got to listen to this because I'm going to get this unique piece of content. You know, our show is at the point now where we're able to kind of expand out of the initial conversation,

but that's just because we're getting close to 200 episodes and we've started very, very targeted in the beginning. So I'd say if you're starting something new, really like what's your expertise and what's your angle and how is that impacting and affecting people's lives? And what have been the best ways that you've seen to grow? And just in general, in terms of the platforms, do you recommend that people post everywhere? You have to get involved with the marketing of your content. I always have issue with talent that is hoping to sit back and have your media do everything for them. I think you have to be passionate about the product, the content, anything that you're producing.

If you're not the biggest cheerleader for that content or product, you're going to have a problem. We can do things as a network to amplify and help you get assets and help you get in front of the right people. But really, like, you need to take advantage of the channels you have at your disposal. I'll use without calling anybody on the network out because that's not a good formula for me. But I'll use Lauren as an example because it's our show. We have built out social and blog channels. And the whole reason this podcast was built is because we really did like as much as we could to promote the show on those channels, email lists. Going where you know you already have audience.

I know you're very big on LinkedIn. Promoting there is a winning strategy for you because you know you can capture an audience that's interested in what you're doing and what you have to say. And then you're taking that and saying, hey, if you want to hear more, go here. And I think that people that think they can just create content and this content creators run into this all the time and that people will discover it, they won't. You have to distribute your content. And I think it's tough with the podcast space because there are so many, I know primarily

people go to Apple. And now Spotify has really been, feels like they're coming up. but there's Anchor and there's all of these other platforms. Is there any, do you recommend that people push to iTunes first? Do you recommend that they go to Spotify? Like what would be your recommendation is someone starting? Or does Lipson blast it everywhere? And the hard part is with the distribution.

Like let's say you're posting, you have a big audience on Instagram. You can't send them everywhere. If you have to send them somewhere, where do you want to send them? So still, when we look at the back end of our platforms, Apple is still by far. in a way, the largest leader in the podcast space. So of course, we're going to start there because we know that's where listeners are. We know there's an existing audience that's already listening, already discovering. That being said, there's a millennial audience that's coming up and says they love Spotify, and I think Apple should be cognitive of that, if I was speaking to them,

and they say, you know, we listen to all our music and get all our content from there. So of course, like, do a good job to try to get your content there as well. Also, don't sleep on Amazon and Alexa, like we create Alexa skills for our show and, you know, that's coming up. I think it's always important to kind of have your finger on the pulse and know what's coming. Google's making a push into it. Like you said, Anchor, Anchor's making a big push into it. There's a lot of platforms that are going to be big on audio, but I think in the beginning, definitely go where you know audience is, and not to promote one platform. But I just think that's a winning formula. Without saying any names, because maybe you can't, who in the podcast space out of those names that you've said,

are you impressed by? Or you're like, these people get the vision of podcasting. On a platform side? Yeah. Hmm, that's interesting. I don't know if there's anybody that I can really call out. I like some things about Anchor. I like how they democratized it.

I like how they gave access to a lot of people. I like iTunes discoverability. I think that the way they've set up, like, what, you know, shows that are related or more things that you like or different categories, I think they've done a really good job. and I think they're going to continue to expand that. But it's hard to say. It'll be interesting to see what Google and Spotify and these different platforms do. I don't know if necessarily they understand the medium and they understand how to produce it.

I don't know if they understand where it's going. Where do you think it's going in the next, let's say even five years? I don't even want to say 10 years because it's almost too far out to have that conversation. I think that we haven't even begun to scratch the surface on where audio is going. I think people don't realize how important it's going to be for our life. I think that everything that we're doing on the phone is going to be amplified tenfold by audio. You're going to be asking your phone, like, do this, do that. It's already starting to happen.

I think with the home devices, I think that if I was betting on a single medium right now, and I know AR and VR is like very much on people's mind, but audio will be before that. I mean, there's no beating. There's no beating voice. Like I do think video is close, but not everybody, like you said, can pay attention to that. Like, I listen to podcasts as I'm putting on makeup in the morning. I can't just have my video up. You're selling time back to people.

And there's so many people who I know now, I don't do this yet. I still text because I'm part of that generation. That's just easier for me to text. A ton of people text via voice. And especially for older people. So it's a really easy way to capture these demos that you wouldn't think would be listening, but we'll be listening. Yep. The age is up.

Do you distribute your podcast at all on YouTube or not? No. And that's primarily because I know if you have, YouTube read, you can close your phone and still listen to audio, but I am just firmly believing that audio should be on an audio medium. That being said, I think it's good to have video components to promote. So maybe there's an element on YouTube that's, you know, clips and segments from the shows that would then point to audio. So for me, again, it's just, you know, I know the majority of people don't want to listen to our shows by every time their phone closes, the sound goes off. I know

some people have the subscription, but the majority don't. So I would use YouTube to, as a marketing tool by creating video clips and assets that you can then point to whichever platform people are listening on. So talk to me a little bit about your roster and how you've curated it and kind of just what the vision is for the future. How big should a podcast network be? In your opinion. I don't think it's like a number of shows or a number of downloads. I think it's unique content, right? So most of the conversations we have, they say, okay, you talk to females. I say, yeah, we talk to females, but it's, it could be on a broad range of such. We have comedy shows. We have lifestyle shows. We have wellness shows. You know, we have cooking shows.

We have shows that speak to the entrepreneurs. We have, you know, we have a wide variety of the types of genres we reach, but we really try to talk to whoever that content creators and say, like, what is the unique point of view here? What is the perspective? And if we think that that's something that has longevity and can stretch into the future, like they said, that five to 10 years built brand building, then we will probably want to onboard that show. It's not like, hey, we're waiting to get to 50 shows, and that's our number. It's mostly just about, like, what is the unique content here. And I know you've done some live events.

Is that the type of, I guess is that what you would expect to be building out from it? Would you expect to be creating conferences based on this? Or how have those even gone? Like, is there a great turnout to watch a podcast happen live? Sure. Yeah, these audiences are extremely engaged. It's, you know, with podcasting, the people that are listening to these shows, you know, you're in someone's ear every week.

The connection is much deeper than someone just scrolling and seeing an image or, you know, seeing a 30 second video. Like these people, you're in their ear of 25, 30, 45 minutes a week. They feel connected. And also as a host, you feel connected to them in a different way. For some shows, it's going to make sense to do live stuff. You know, they're going to go and they want to meet their audience in person. They want to do stuff live.

Some shows it won't make sense. Some people want to just be behind the mic in studio. So we really take it case by case. It's not like there's a agenda put down from the network saying, okay, everybody's now doing live, everybody's got to do this. We really sit with the talent on an individual level and say, what do you want to do? Is there a tour? Is it just a one-off?

Is there something that makes sense? We're doing different types of shows, you know? How can you find out who's actually listening to your podcast? Is there any method at this point to kind of get a handle on that? Besides just the back-end analytics of like, we'll use Lipson. And they do a good job with their analytics and they're all IAB-compliant, which is a whole other thing. A lot of people in the podcast space got in trouble for reporting downloads that weren't maybe actually unique. Libson is all IAB compliant and does a really good job of letting

us know who's listening, when they're listening, you know, where they're listening. Also, Apple does a really good job like letting us know how long they're listening when they're fast forwarding, when they're not. But also the type of audiences and the type of talent that we cater to right now, they're very involved with their with their audiences. Like I said, they're communicating back and forth on social. They're getting comments. A lot of these, the audiences are calling in. We can gauge it from there. So for your podcast personally, because I'm sure it's different for each podcaster you work with, what have been maybe the top most popular episodes that you've done? I don't know if I can pinpoint like the most popular. I think it's the maybe the

type of topics that we cover. Of course, the wellness stuff does really, really well. Sometimes we'll have like we had a we have a lot of conversations around sex which does like that always piques people's interest um i think it's there's a lot of times though when you'll see an episode that you you think maybe wouldn't do as well and all of a sudden it spikes so it's it's hard to tell what does the best we just we don't really look for the overall like downloads each time we're like oh wow that did we got to keep doing that we look for just kind of like consistent month over month growth and as long as it's growing between 10 to 20% a month i'm happy um but it's more like i said I would maybe do an episode that nobody would like just because we would have an interesting

conversation that we think would be interesting, right? There's been a lot of things that we've gone into and talked about that you just wouldn't expect. Do you think 10 to 20% growth month over month is what people should aim for? I think you should, a lot of content creators don't like to look at analytics. I come from more of like an analytical background, especially running direct-to-consumer traffic and, you know, running product-based companies where you kind of look for that growth from the financial aspect.

I think when you're blogging or doing YouTube or social, you should be paying attention to the analytics. Because the analytics speak volumes to you. They let you know what your audience likes and dislikes. And if you see something where you're trending down, it's time to stop and say, okay, why is that happening? What do I need to adjust here? Or if you see something where all of a sudden you get a big spike,

okay, what did I do there? Did I market in a different way? Did I collaborate in a different way? Was there a certain subject around a certain time? I really think that, that people should, especially with content, should be involved with paying attention to their analytics, but also not so involved that it drives them crazy, right? Like, you have to have have a true north and you have to do what you feel will be right in the long run. So it's a

balancing act. I definitely think it's a tough balance. It's one that I've had to deal with over the last year because, you know, starting anything, I didn't necessarily start with a huge built-in audience. So you also can't get discouraged if the numbers aren't there right away. And people get so obsessed with, you know, the followers and all the things. So I think at the beginning and early on, it's focusing on getting your skills up, getting the quality up. And then from there, once people start responding and reacting to that, even just looking at something I've been trying to do is looking in the numbers in a way where I'm not married to them, like looking very objectively. It's hard. Because it's hard, because when you are a creator or creative, you are

super tied to that. And sometimes it hurts, not so much for me, because I feel less tied to it, but it's something to like work on, to really not feel like, to make sure that you don't get your feelings hurt and just kind of, this is the number, this is what it is. Why is it this way if it's not growing? People get married to the macro, right? You see, oh, that person's got a million followers. That person's got the, that doesn't matter. It's who actually gives a shit about what you're saying in producing. You could, you could be somebody with 30 million followers. You see. You could, followers, but if people are just kind of passively watching, maybe getting a laugh or do, that's fine. That's a type of content. But engagement is what we care about. Like we,

Lauren and I don't get, we don't get discouraged or pay too much attention to the overall macro number. It's more like growth, seeing what's happening, see who's consistent. I would actually, you know, like I think about this all time, like some type of big promotion happened and all of a sudden you get 500,000 people jump in and follow you. Like, how long are they staying? Yeah. How long are they, how long are you keeping them? For me, it's, it's consistent growth, month of month for people who actually care and not just these large spikes. And how are you registering feedback? Is it through the amount of DMs? Is that how you can tell when an episode really hit home? Is it from the, you know, the reviews people leave? Or is it from,

I mean, I don't know if you can necessarily gauge your actual podcast content from the amount of people who go to, for example, thrive market. So what are you looking at? From the brand side, we obviously, we get all those analytics and they tell us like what's doing really well. It's not to me. That's interesting, but not as interesting as, you know, maybe you get 50 messages and you kind of come up to with a healthy, you know, like 10 people come in and say, hey, that was really, really good. And 20 people say that was good. And then 10 other people say it was terrible. And one of the person says, like, I hated that. You kind of look and say, okay, what is, like, what's the general consensus here? If you get 50 messages say, this really sucks. You have to maybe think about it. In the beginning of our show, we learned, this drove Lorne Nuts, I would, sort our reviews by most critical. And the reason I did that is not because I'm a glutton for punishment, but because I wanted to see if there's validity there. And in the beginning there was, they say, you know, this audio is not up to quality. They interrupt each other. They say like. There's a lot of stuff. And I said, okay, there's validity in this, in these critical reviews.

I don't want to read the headlines where people praising me. I don't care about that. I mean, it's nice and I appreciate it. But that's, you know, if you just think, oh, wow, pat myself on the back, everything's great. I don't think you can grow as a businessman or woman or a content creator. I think you have to kind of dive in and see like, do any of these, do these, does this critical feedback actually have some merit? You're going to get the trolls that, you know, maybe like, hey, I hate the way this guy looks. Okay, who gives a shit? Or I hate it the way his voice is. Okay, who cares? But if they're saying something valid, like, you know, I really wish they would let the guests speak more. Or I really wish they would not interrupt. Or the audio quality

can be improved. Or I wish they would not be stuck so much on these topics. Like, that stuff, I'm like, okay, let's take that feedback and improve upon it. So how have you improved upon, let's say, not talking over each other? Do you guys actively work on it? Yeah, I think, but the first step is being aware of it, right? It's true. Knowing that that's bothering people. You need the feedback in order to know that you've been talking over each other.

Let's take Wu, for example, when we first launched that product, and like, you know, I said, Weston's running that brand, it's an all natural product. And because it's all natural with coconut oil, the coconut oil hardens up. And there was some issue getting out of the bottle and there's some issue of people using it. And that's painful because you're like, hey, what the fuck? I just bought this thing and it's a premium and it was expensive and now it's not working. And, you know, that is tough to swallow because as the creator of the product, you want to keep your customers happy. So what we did.

We went back to the drawing board. We fixed the formula in every single one of those customers that wrote in review. We sent them and said, hey, we knew there was a problem. If you just pay for the shipping, we're sending you a brand new bottle free. Right? We want to make this right for you. And so just taking that customer feedback, it's customers get mad when they feel or in listeners, when they feel like you've taken advantage of them.

But if you come and you can say, hey, you know what? I've owned up to this mistake or I realize that this content could be better and you worked with them, and that's the key with them to improve it, then they'll forgive you and they'll stick around. People are way more forgiving than I think creators or people who create anything give them credit for. I knew that I was talking to you before this. I developed my first digital product over the last few months.

And I just like my number one goal is that it works and everybody's happy. It's not about me being happy. It's not about my success and the dollar amount that I'm making. It's making sure that those people are loyal advocates forever. Longevity. Completely. And a lot of those people for that example I just gave you that were so pissed off in the beginning. They're like, oh my God.

Look at this customer service. I can't believe they actually took the time and reached out to me and like a dread. And, you know, we sent individual emails, which took forever. It was not just like, hey, there's a blanket email on an email list. It was individual, every single one. And we said, hey, sorry if this happened to you. We got your review because we query people for reviews after they buy it. And now some of those people are our biggest cheerleaders thing.

Like, you know, this customer service experience was amazing. I know we're getting on tangent off audio. No, but still. But still, it's important to make sure that your listener or reader or customer is heard. Personalization matters so much. This goes back to the point I was making earlier about Lauren. and actually actively engaging, knowing that you're engaging with her or knowing that the company hears you, it's a lot about being heard. When people complain, it's about being recognized. I've heard

time and time again from people who are, you know, big in whatever space that they'll reach out about a critical review, even if it's not, you know, just about them as a person, like somebody leaves a critical message. And then they're shocked and they take it right back as soon as that person happens to reach out. It's just feeling like you have a human. Yes, but the distinction there is that you have to recognize the critical from the trolling or from the just people. That is very different. You know, there's going to be some people that you're never going to win over that are maybe not in the best space that want to tear you down. Those people exist. And you have to have to deploy empathy with that, right? It's, you have to understand that place. And you can't take, like I said,

if someone's commenting on looks or just saying they hate you or whatever. Yeah, that's not worth it. That's not critical feedback. That's just somebody being a troll. And for me, I don't address those. But when it's critical feedback that's productive, most of the time it'll get addressed. So you were talking before about distribution. Do you guys do any paid advertising, Facebook advertising, anything like that? We do not do any paid for our show. Again, the reason being, and listen, there may be a strategy behind that. I know a lot of people employed and I have nothing against it.

But for us, it's like I said, it's not about the macro immediately. It's about how are we growing organically and who are we keeping? Because for us, for Lauren and I, I don't think we would ever stop. doing this type of show. Like there's no real reason. It's easy to produce. It's fast to produce. The audience is growing. Like the only reason I could say that we would stop is if both of us looked at each other one day and said, hey, we don't like doing this anymore. But we're having so many interesting conversations with so many people that I never thought we would get access to. Like, you know, we were just talking about Robert Green before. He's, I think I'm somebody that I

really, really admire. I've read all his work. And if you would have asked me three years ago, hey, Michael, you're going to be sitting across from Robert Green talking to him. I said, what the hell are you talking about. Now, so I would do this, I would do this whole thing for free, right? And I think if you find a medium or a business like that that you, that you would have that attitude towards, the rest of the stuff falls in place. That's 100% how I felt about podcasting. I knew that I could be consistent. I could deliver quality. I could talk about the things that I felt like needed to be talked about in my space. And it didn't have the pressure to me of being on camera every week or putting out a vlog or doing any of those things that felt like,

if I felt like, ugh, that wasn't good. This is exciting. I get to have this conversation. We're in a beautiful space. And even if I was just, you know, at home, like in my yoga pants, having this conversation, I feel good after. Yeah. And I assume that's how you guys feel too.

But let's talk about that a little bit and just content, because you asked me when you walked in, do I have a content team that would work on my personal stuff? And I said, no. And a lot of times people beat me up and they say, listen, you've been in this space for so long. You're social. And you see, listen, someone like a Gary, who we both know, Gary V, like, you definitely a big inspiration for me. You see someone like, you know, some of these other contact

creators that are really present on social. We just had a guy named Ed Milet on here. He's so present on social. And Lewis Howe has been on like all these people, Lauren, my wife, why don't I do it? And it's because it's not because I'm disrespecting the medium. It's because I've chosen a medium that I know I would be passionate about and know I post to. I'm not, I think there's a mistake here where people are saying, oh my God, this person's doing Instagram. I got to get on Instagram. Or this person's writing blog content. I have to do that. This person's doing YouTube. If I don't get on YouTube, I'm not going to make it. Or even in the reverse, everyone's jumping in the podcast space.

I better have a podcast. You better have a medium that you're passionate about, that you can do effort. Not only say effortlessly. Yes. And for me, I'm not as excited about those other platforms. I'm about podcasting. I've been consistent with podcasting for 180 weeks and not including, you know, doing guest shows. So for me, it's been effortless.

I don't know if the same could be said if I said, okay, I need to start writing a blog. Everyone's doing it better do it. I guess how do you reconcile not using some other platform to distribute, like even just Instagram stories or something? Just listen, because I know people think about the personal brand thing, and I know because I talk to these people every day, and they think they need to be at the level of Gary literally has 30 people working strictly on his personal brand. And they don't.

And so for someone like you who probably does not prefer posting on Instagram all the time, what would be that next best thing that would make you feel like you're distributing? or because Lauren has a sizable audience and is constantly posting about both of you, you know, you're a unit in that way. You feel like that's kind of, that job is done. Yeah, I get the benefit of her for sure. And I don't want to contradict myself here, but I could be good. It could be good to build my social channels for sure.

Well, it's totally good. There's no, I'm not one of those people that says don't do it. What I'm arguing is that a lot of people think they need to be on every medium. You don't. Yeah, that's not true. me, I would rather do something phenomenally well than something mediocre. And I know that right now at this stage, especially with how much I have on my plate, I could probably hire a team and do that. But if I build a platform and I build a medium, I want to be involved in it. And so for me, I've just

chose what, listen, it could change down the line. But I think where people are running into trouble is they see someone like, let's take Lauren, for example, they see, oh my God, look, this channel she's got built out. I need to do that to be her. It's like, maybe there's. Maybe there's. another medium that you could do really effectively that you can grow on and then capture audience. And I'm not saying in the future I wouldn't expand into other channels, but for right now, for me, for my social presence, it's definitely focused on podcasting. So this is kind of a random question based on, I'm sure you've heard about the divorce with Jeff Bezos. Do you feel like your partner is part of your personal brand? Do you feel, I know you and Lauren have separate brands

in quotes, you know, you don't really build your own personal brand per se, but are you a reflection on her and a sheer reflection on you? I think at some level that has to be true, right? Lauren and I been married for two years. We've been together for 10 years and we've known each other since we were 12. There's definitely, I mean, without a doubt, like she's impacted my life and my perspective and a lot of the things that I do and I'm sure she would probably say it the same time to ask her later when she comes on. I think it's case by case, right? And I can't speak to anybody else's relationship, but there's definitely, for Lauren and I, there's definitely elements of both our lives have been reflected both into our personal lives and our businesses. Do you guys shut down at

all? What's been the hardest part working together? The shutting down. That's the hardest thing. My mom, I'm going to get in trouble for this if she ever hears that. I got, I said it the other day on an episode, she basically, like was setting us aside and basically trying to tell Lauren and I that we need to calm down and take it easy. But what people don't understand is, you guys love it. We love it, right? Like I'm, you know, I have a dinner date with her tonight. We do things to, you know, tonight's like our date night. I have to make sure that we're going to go to Medea. We're going to have a nice Italian dinner.

But you probably like talking about the stuff as over dinner. Yes, we talk. And so sometimes we'll look at each and say, okay, no more business. We're not talking about business. Let's talk about it. And then we'll look at each other for 10 minutes, like, okay, let's go talk about it again. I think that's important when you're getting into relationship is finding where, you know, I, let me switch gears here. I've seen some of my friends get in relationships where maybe they want to talk about business and their partner doesn't.

and then they're somewhat suppressed. And you don't want to be in a position, in my opinion, where you can't talk about the things you like talking about with your partner. I can understand not bringing certain things into the bedroom or into an intimate arena or to a certain element of the relationship. But you never want to be stifled or suppressed when it comes to what you're passionate about talking about with your partner. And right now we're having fun with what we're doing.

I don't look at what I do for work is work all the time. I have fun doing it. So I don't think I would be happy if I wasn't. So when I was talking to my mom, I said, you don't understand. Like, from her perspective, she's looking at it as just work for, for Lauren and I, but that's not how we, you know, it is like if you classify it down, it is work, but that's not how we view it all the time. Do you feel like you're working?

So you were just in London. You were just, I think, in Switzerland. And, you know, you're, Lauren at least is, you know, Snapchating or Instagram storying. Does that bother you at all? Or is that also part of part of the work and part of the routine? I ask this because my future Instagram husband or. soon-to-be husband. He's way more private, but he's behind the scenes. He understands what I'm doing,

and we talk about business quite a lot. He probably wishes I talked about my business a little bit less. I have no say in how my wife portrays me, and it's brutal because... Susan. Yeah, I've got nicknames. I've had people in the street. I'll wake up in the morning and look terrible, and there's a camera in my face. It comes with the territory. I don't mind it. Like, for me, and I are different in the in there that you could like if you were filming me right now you could put it out like I have no qualms over how I look like similar to Gary in that regard like somebody was following me with the camera like I wouldn't even look at it they could put out whatever they want but the men now that I've worked with enough personal brands men versus women men I still haven't worked with the man

who really gives a shit how they look you can do the up nostril shot you can do all these different but when you work with a woman it is a whole different ballgame you see this giant light behind us because I yeah no I would if we were filming this I I'd want all that light on me. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, that's why, you know, when you came inside of the studio, I said sit there because Oh, the light. Oh, the light.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I've basically taken a backseat and just accepted the fact that I will look like the guy from the goonies compared to Lauren and that's fine. That's my role. Well, having all of these experts come on and like fix up your skin and then a bunch of stuff? I looked like an old weathered saddle before I did this podcast. My diet was fucked up, my face. Yeah, it's helped.

I mean, listen, it's still work in progress, but it's helped. So just to hear from your perspective, who are some of your favorite podcasters out there? I know you're a huge reader. I just want to hear some of your suggestions. You know what's funny? And this is probably not good. But I don't consume nearly as many podcasts as you think I would. I'm primarily, there's a book called Managing One Self by Peter Druckers.

One of my favorite books is short. People could read it in 45 minutes, 50 pages. Maybe a long, but small too. And there's an example in the books that's like, are you a listening learner? or are you reading learner? Listening learners, they would use an example. I think it was like Dwight Eisenhower. When he was general, he was one of the best generals of all time during World War II.

You know, he led the Allies. And during that time, he was so effective. Later, he became president. And during that when he was president, he was really, really terrible in press conferences. A lot of people didn't like him. And they tried to figure out why, because he was so effective as a general. When he was a general, all his generals would sit around the table and give him the reports verbally and tell him, you know, this is what's going on, this is what we're doing.

later when he became president, those same briefings would get delivered to him written, and he would freeze up in interviews. And people deciphered that there's differences between reading learners and listening learners, because when he was reading, he was not nearly as effective as when he's listening. For me, I think I'm more of a reading learner, and I enjoy reading. It's kind of a time where I can get out of my head a little bit and focus. So I read a lot. The podcast I listen to listen, there's guys.

like there's a lot of people that I admire. I admire anybody that will put audience first and ask the questions that I really want answered. I can't stand shows with talking points, right? Like the today type shows. I want to know people who go deep. I want to, I want to hear things that get in people's souls, which is why Howard Stern was a big influence from me growing up. Back to the E-days, because you don't really give a shit who his guest is. Sometimes you care, like if it's a big name, but you really listen because you're more interested in figuring out the types of questions Howard is going to ask and the type of answers he's going to extract. So anybody who would do that I listen to. And he not only, so I've just in general been kind of on a crusade to make sure that people

dig deeper when they ask questions, even when they're putting out their personal brand, like I don't want surface level stuff. That's the first result in Google. Like I want to hear your analysis. And what's interesting about Howard and I think he got to this place, one, he can make anybody interesting, but he does ask those tough questions. Not only does he get them comfortable, but you can ask them who they're having sex with or what it was like to do X, Y, Z. And people don't bat an eye at it even. There's an art to it. He doesn't get enough credit. Have you studied it?

I've studied as much as I can about interviewing, but I think it's something where you have to be a practitioner, right? Like you have to sit across the table from somebody and you have to not be scared. But also, there's a respectful way to ask harder questions. You never want to put somebody, this is just not a winning formula in my opinion, but you never want to put somebody in like the gotcha position where it's like you're trying to put them on the spot and make them uncomfortable. It's more like asking a question for so that they can answer more with their feelings than with their minds, right? And I know that sounds strange, but the typical like, you know, if you interview a typical author, like, okay, how'd you do this book? Boom, boom, boom. They're going to give you their surfacing. Like, they're going to give you the Today Show talking points.

I want to know why that book was important for them to write. And I think the audience wants to know that as well or why this, you know, this specific topic is so important to this individual. I want to get to the core of those answers because you and me both are not as interested in that surface answer. It's just we've heard it before, right? There's that funny meme that's going around about Lady Gaga when she was promoting her, you know, talking about it. It's like the same response in 50 outlets. And that's what happens. And they're not doing it intentionally. I've actually, I've fallen into that boat multiple times.

You get asked similar questions. It's just you default to it because the questions are framed the same way over and over again and you get used to answering it. So it's not that these people are not being forthcoming or wanting to answer in a more meaningful way. It's just when the questions are framed the same way over and over, you fall into that kind of robotic response. And I've done it myself. And I think it's honestly why I've shied away from interviewing certain, you know, there's a lot of people who are like, you should interview so-and-so or you should interview so-and-so. And I'd want to interview them in my way because I don't want to be a, I'm happy to promote someone's book if that's like a little piece of it, but I can have a real conversation with them. I don't want this just to be, oh, you came with your PR talking points and I'm going to sit here and just regurgitate them for you and with you.

That's completely not interesting. No, we won't let PR sit in the room. So they come up with their agents and we say, no. But there are some people that, I mean, obviously no names, but you know that this is like a PR trained thing. And you try to break it out. It's not fun, right? It's not fun. So what's been the hardest part about building this business so far?

I'm just curious. We're in a really interesting point right now in the business where we're in a growth stage. There's a lot of new team members. There's a lot of new departments. You know, you think that the hardest part would be launching the business and getting shows assigned and doing right by the shows and helping them grow. And now it's really, you know, I spend 90% of my time with the people in the business. And I tell all these people, like, for me, it's an idea of meritocracy. Like, best idea rise at the top.

It's not a lot of times it's not my idea, right? I'm trying to put the best people around me. If I could make one to two good decisions a day, that's basically my job and giving my team the ability to execute on the task they're executing on and putting them in the best position to succeed. But it's difficult to do, right? You have to get a whole team to communicate. You have to get them confident.

You have to get them speaking up. You have to create a good culture. There's a lot of moving pieces. And on top of that, as you're building that core team, it's also doing right by your shows, helping them grow, helping them monetize, helping them get amplification. But this is, you know, as a head of something, a lot of CEOs and entrepreneurs get in trouble because they become the bottleneck, right? And they think that it's everything's on them and their vision.

Really, I'm kind of pointing the ship in the direction. I think it should go, but I'm letting the team members steer it there, right? And having those conversations and not having a bunch of yes people around and having people that are confident speaking up in meetings and being effective. with those meetings is important. So how big is the team and how do you how do you balance your relationship with Raina who I know is your partner? What's what's your end and what's her end? So Raina and I are great partners because we have really, really close communication, but we really, really define the roles, right? So I operate your media with pretty much full autonomy. I would say that

she's my closest confidant when it comes to, you know, the vision we have for the business where it's going, really, you know, says, okay, if you're operating, you're operating and vice versa. When she's operating DBA, but she's been the CEO and built from the ground up for since the beginning, she's operating that. So my partner in the business is DBA so I can tap into a lot of those resource, a lot of those managers, a lot of their sales team. Deere Media's team is now a strong team of 10. And that's, you know, that's gone pretty rapidly considering we didn't really get going until last May. But I operate that team day and day out. It's, it's, it's my team. We, Rain and I, are definitely very much in conversation about the vision of the company and a vision of where we're going.

But to the day to day, it's primarily me. So day to day, are you in the office always talking to the team or is it mostly remote? I know we're here right now. No, I'm in this office whenever I'm in Los Angeles. If I'm not traveling for the business or for something else, I'm in this office. Primarily, I get in here. I'm up every day at 5 a.m. and then I'm in here. Most of the time between 8, 8, 30, everyone else gets in.

nine, sometimes people come in earlier and then nine till six, as long as it, as long as it takes. But like I said, my primary role right now is just making sure my team has everything in place so that they can execute and giving them the autonomy and the leeway to do that. A lot of people, like I said, they bottleneck their people and they have to be, they're micromanaging. That's the worst thing you can do. You have to release some of the control. You have to be confident in the people that you've brought on to execute in the way that they see fit or else you can't scale. How do you check them?

How do you check them? Like, yeah, feedback. But it's never blaming, right? I always tell people in this, with that on my team, I say, listen, everything is my fault. I believe that. I believe everything is my fault. I take full accountability.

But I say also to them in their own world, I want them to have the same attitude. If they mess something up or something doesn't go right, I want them to take accountability. Because I think when you create a culture like that, everybody on the team then steps up and wants to help that person. If you ever get in a situation where you're saying, that's your fault or that's this person's fault or this person didn't do this, then guess what? When you fall, nobody wants to help pick you up. So I'm really trying to instill in this culture that we're in this together. It's a team effort. We're building these shows together. And when you do that and everyone's being accountable to

their own actions and their roles, then you can scale because everyone wants to help everybody. So how do you promote that culture? Because I 100% agree with that. That's something that changes people's lives, yeah, knowing that it's 100%. By example. Just by example? By leading in a way where people know that you're always going to have their and take accountability, right? Never, we, I always want to frame things with not as a tell, but as a question. I want people to be able to come to their own conclusions. Like I said, there's a million ways, like we had a production meeting yesterday. I said, listen, guys, I had an idea of how production should work, but they're doing it day to day, like Taylor's on,

like he's producing this right now. I sit down with production team and I say, you guys are doing this every day, day to day. Tell me what you think is the best way to do this. Tell me where I misread this. Tell me which types of processes we should put in, place. I leave it to them. Of course, we'll review it and we'll go through it together and we'll make a decision as a team. That being said, like if, you know, as ahead of this thing, you also have to be clear in your goals and in your vision. And when we decide as a, as a company to move in a direction, then everybody has to get on board. Even if maybe that one person doesn't agree, it's a team effort and you have to be aligned. I know we have to wrap up, but I want to ask you the one

question I ask everybody. What do you think the secret to influence is? The secret to influence is a few things. But first and foremost, it's providing value that actually influences the way people live that. Like, the word influencer is thrown around so much. For me, anybody that has any kind of sway over the way people live their lives is influence. And I think the way you do that is you become people's friends, right? The best word of mouth and the best marketing is when your friend comes and says, hey, you have to listen to this or hey, you have to buy this. Your trusted friend. Yes. And an influencer can put themselves in that position if they speak to their audience in an honest and meaningful way. and engage with that audience. And I think that's the meaning of influence. I don't, I don't like the

word influencer as much anymore because I think that people are getting confused that that just means somebody with a number of followers. Really, like, I don't care if you're talking to 50 people. If you can, if you can sway those 50 people into a new way to think or a new way to purchase or a new way to live their life and improve themselves, like that's influence to me. It's specifically what I built this podcast on. I didn't want to use the word influencer. I want to use the word influence because there's always been taste makers and decision makers and they're in every industry, whether they're online or not is a completely different thing. But people have influence. People have influence that they don't even realize they have. And that's just what it is.

You could look at a traditional celebrity and you could have, you could slap that word at a time. I mean, it's changed a little bit. We always use the example. Is Jennifer Anison really drinking smart water and is LeBron James really in the Buick? We don't know. We don't think so. But there is a time right where, you know, certain celebrities drink and do certain things and wear certain things and that influences you, right? To me, that, like, that is the level of influence. But if when you want to get into the granular level and what does it take to build influence, I think it's the things I said previously. So where can people find out more about you and Dear Media? People can find Dear Media, DeerMedia.com on Apple Podcasts. They can find me at Michael Bostic on social. Like I said,

guys, I'm not the best, but primarily on the skinny confidential him and her podcast there all the time. And also probably if you follow my wife, you'll probably get glimpses of me that are not so flattering, but I'm there. Well, thank you so much. Thank you for doing this. Hey, guys, thank you so much for tuning into that episode. I hope it brought you tons of value. So to win a TSC meal plan, all you have to do is tell us on my latest Instagram

what you want to see more of from Michael. Get specific. Do you want to see his skincare routine, maybe him brushing his eyebrows up, book tips? Nothing too pervy. Morning hacks. Him testing out, Wu, let us know. And for those of you that are looking for, detailed show notes, go to tscpodcast.com. All of the show notes from this episode and all of our

others can be found there. It's a really great resource that highlights all the great people we've had on this podcast, all the different topics we've talked about, all the different books, resources, apps, you name it, it's on there. And we really recommend it. Also follow along on TSC podcast, on Instagram to get the latest updates. And I think that feed looks pretty damn good. I do you say so myself. So Lauren and our team are running that well. So we'll be back this Friday. Thanks, guys. This episode is brought to you by Misfit Wearables and their brand new smartwatch Misfit Vapor 2. You guys know I love to get my 10K steps in. I'm obsessed kind of. Sometimes I even aim for 15. I also love multitasking and efficiency. And let me tell you, this smartwatch has it all.

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