The Bossticks - How To Heal Trauma, Develop Emotional Competence & Understand Personality Disorders Ft. Best Selling Author & Psychologist Catherine Gildiner

Episode Date: October 5, 2023

#615: Today, we're joined by Catherine Gildiner, a best-selling memoirist, novelist, and psychologist in private practice for 25 years. In her book, 'Good Morning, Monster,' she focuses on five patients who overcame enormous trauma - people she considers heroes. Gildiner recounts the details of their struggles, their paths to recovery, and her own tale of growth as a therapist. Today, we're sitting down with Cathy to discuss all things therapy and her experiences as a psychologist who's taken on numerous traumatic cases and healed countless patients of their mental health issues. She also dives into how to achieve confidence, developing emotional competence, and getting to the root cause of insecurity. To connect with Cathy Gildiner click HERE To connect with Lauryn Bosstick click HERE To connect with Michael Bosstick click HERE Read More on The Skinny Confidential HERE To subscribe to our YouTube Page click HERE For Detailed Show Notes visit TSCPODCAST.COM To Call the Him & Her Hotline call: 1-833-SKINNYS (754-6697) This episode is brought to you by The Skinny Confidential. This episode is brought to you by Fable Pets Fable Pets designs gear that solves problems for you and your pet, so the two of you can enjoy exploring the world together. Go to fablepets.com/skinny for 20% off sitewide. This episode is brought to you by MOON MOON Oral Beauty is reimagining oral care by elevating the everyday oral care routine into an oral care beauty experience. Get 20% off your first device purchase by using code SKINNY at moonoralbeauty.com . This episode is brought to you by Barefaced Use code SKINNY at barefaced.com to get 15% off your first purchase. The first 100 people to purchase Overachiever by clicking HERE will get free Everyday Eye Hero reusable eye patches in their order. This episode is brought to you by Galderma Restylane Visit aspirerewards.com to receive $20 off when you join Galderma ASPIRE rewards today. Offer terms and conditions apply. This episode is brought to you by The Farmer's Dog It's never been easier to invest in your dog's health with fresh food. Get 50% off your first box & free shipping by going to thefarmersdog.com/skinny Produced by Dear Media

The following podcast is a dear media production. She's a lifestyle blogger extraordinaire. Fantastic. And he's a serial entrepreneur. A very smart cookie. And now Lauren Everts and Michael Bostic are bringing you along for the ride. Get ready for some major realness. Welcome to the skinny confidential, him and her.

Look at someone like Madeline. I mean, she was terribly insecure. She didn't believe anybody could love her. She felt she was a monster because her mother told her every day of her life, good morning monster. So, I mean, that's what she thought she was, a monster. And she thought that she did a tremendous amount to cover it up with all of her Prata clothing and her millions of dollars and millions of assistance and all of that stuff. I mean, she built this whole web around herself. And that goes back to the insecurity of, I am too unlovable.

No one would love me. I'm not even a normal person. I'm a monster. And if somebody gets together with me, they're going to figure that all. all out and I have to keep everybody at bay. And that's why she's so bitchy. Today is a moment. Good Morning Monster, the podcast, has launched. I am so proud to be a part of this project. I actually was told about this book through Glennon Doyle. She said, Lauren, you have to read Good Morning Monster. And I read the book and fell in love with it. And I pestered Michael Bostic and said,

We have to turn this into a series. And the Dear Media team got together and they have created the most incredible podcast series that I personally am so proud of. I know they're so proud of. And it's launched today. You guys have to go listen to this. It's one of my favorite books. If you haven't read the book, Good Morning Monster, you have to. And to add a little spice to this situation, we have the author who wrote Good Morning Monster on the podcast. Kathy Gildner, in her book, Good Morning Monster, she focuses on five patients who have overcome enormous, and I mean enormous trauma, you guys. When I was reading these traumas, because there's five different ones in the book, the empathy and sympathy that I had for each of these people who were going through therapy

with Kathy was unreal. You feel how they feel in therapy. And she recounts details of their struggles, their paths to recovery, and even her own tale of growth and evolution as a therapist. I personally am so excited to share this scripted podcast adaptation of Good Morning Monster with the world. It's released. And I'm just so proud to have contributed to the project as an executive producer after knowing that this book would be such an incredible series. The Dear Media team has absolutely crushed it. We've all worked with a bunch of incredibly talented artists who have worked so hard to bring this project to life for you. And you can also listen because I actually had, don't mean to brag, my voice acting debut. You'll hear my voice. It's like a little Easterag. The first and second episodes

drop today. I know you're going to love it. This podcast will be all about trauma, borderline personality disorder, bipolar disorder, depression, anxiety, dealing with a narcissist. We go in to everything you can think of with, in my opinion, one of the world's top therapist. She is a best-selling novelist, and she was a psychologist in private practice for 25 years. It's super interesting she'll tell you in this episode why she stopped practicing and the stories that she has are going to rock your world. My draw was on the floor. I think you're going to love this episode. If any of you have dealt with mental health or you have family members who have dealt with mental health issues, this one's going to hit a spot. I could not be more thrilled to introduce you to the Catherine

Gildner of Good Morning Monster. This is the skinny confidential, him and her. You are the perfect person to ask this and dive into this whole therapy realm. What makes a successful therapist-client relationship? What are the things that make it a successful synergy? I think you really have to be able to relate to the problem. You have to relate to whatever they're telling you. And then you have to say, oh, I can imagine how that might feel.

And the thing is it's hard to do. It's hard to do because sometimes people have, you know, problems that you say, really? That's your problem. But, you know, you have to say, okay, I'm going to really get into it. And when you get into it, you'll find it's way more complicated than you, you know, than they ever, than they ever thought. And I don't know. Some people I relate to and some people I just don't. So, but I usually know that within two or three sessions.

And they do too. What's something that someone's come into that you, it's really hard to say I relate to you. Okay. I'm just writing another book now. now. I had this couple from India. It's a long story, but I'll try to make it short. A couple from India, she was a Brahman and he was not, and, you know, she's, her father taught at Harvard, et cetera. She had a lot of cred, but not much money. He had not a lot of credit, but a lot of money. They get married, and the family's making agreement. She went to Harvard. He went to, like,

some school in India that no one's heard of. And so he said, you have to say I went to Harvard. then my family will give the money, but we need prestige in our family. You've got a lot of prestige. We've got a lot of money. So that's the thing they made. So she came in for marriage counseling with him and said, I can't say you went to Harvard because like everyone will know that you didn't go to Harvard. He said, the United States is a huge place.

What's wrong with you? Right? I mean, this was part of our marital agreement. He wanted her to lie on his behalf. Yes. So I thought, this is going to be a hard case for me to get into. to because I right away thought, cut it out. You didn't go to Harvard. It's not a big deal. Right. Right. You know, like is your normal reaction? Nobody cares. No one cares. But actually,

people do care. People do care if he went to Harvard in his mind. Yeah, in his line of work, which was physics and math and, you know, all that stuff. Like that really mattered. So I thought, okay, I have to relate to him somehow. I mean, I really have to, because I didn't. Right. So then I said, okay. So then I started studying all. this stuff about India and all of the casts and how how people make these kind of agreements all the time and that honesty is not high on the priority list. It's just not high. It's high in North America, which he says is, I spent hours with him trying to understand this. You know, I spent hours with him where he would say, you know, people in North America lock their relatives up

in some horrible place when they get old and, you know, don't even see them again. And yet they think they're honest because they tell the truth about what this or that or the other thing. He said it's the most important thing is your family taking care of your family and making things in your family work and little lies along the way are nothing this whole fantasy that you've you know that you told the truth people think that matters that's big deal in north america doesn't matter what the hell else you do you know so anyway i went you know i spent ages and ages and ages with him really trying to understand this i think you know i tried to understand did he feel insecure. He said, no, this was an agreement. They got millions of dollars and we know, this is what

I get in return. We agreed on this before. This is part of the bargain. This is part of the bargain, right? And this whole thing about honesty is crazy. When the wife tried to explain, I've lived here for several years, I know that people will find out you didn't go to Harvard because every little town has a Harvard group and they get together and they talk. Like you think America is a huge place. It's not. It's tiny. The Harvard graduates all know each other. They get together. And then they're going to say, where were you? What dorm did you live in? All this stuff. And you're not going to be able to, and you will look silly because lying here is a big deal. Where in India, if you, if you lie about this family kind of stuff, they'll go, oh, that must have been part of the marital deal. Yeah.

Whatever. Yeah, whatever. So what you're saying is you actually had to go and dissect the culture that he came from to understand. I had to understand it or also I would have to say I can't help you. Because my gut reaction was really Harvard cut it out. So did she lie for him in the end? No, in the end, in the end, what happened was he said, he began to understand. She was just, she was happy to go along with it. But she was just trying to explain, you'll be outed and it'll be embarrassing. But she would have been outed.

Yeah, it's not going to end well for him. It's not going to end well for you, right? But then I had to show him that I really understood his culture. And I couldn't just say, we don't do that here. you know because that's not helping him that's not showing him any empathy it's not showing him that I can and he had a lot of very interesting things to say about the two different cultures and that and lying in North America how how he sees that is just you know it's very easy to tell the truth it's hard to look after your old parents every day you know that that in fact that's just

something that people glorify in North America I found that all very fascinating so in terms of I'm just reading this book now by Carl Rogers on becoming a person. And it's how to listen to other people so that you're not judging it. And the way to do that is to get all the details that you can so that you can say, oh, okay, that's really how your society looks at this. And then he then senses that I'm on his side. But I mean, he has to sense me on his side as opposed to me saying, no, we can't do that in North America because everyone will know you didn't go to Harvard. I mean, his wife's told him that. Everyone's told him that. Right. It has to be some way that he understands that I care about his situation.

It's almost like to be influential as a therapist. You have to really understand, like you said, where he's coming from. You have to. It's really interesting because sometimes I'll say things to my husband about the way that he is. And he'll say, read Shogun. He is a fourth Japanese. And he wants me to understand this is a book that, like, has. I read Shogun.

All you guys are best friends. Who hasn't read Shogun? Me, I haven't already yet. The unenformed. The uninformed have not read show. Oh, my gosh. Five inches thick. Okay, well, geez.

You and Kathy are going to go off. So he wants me to read it, which I will. He wants me to read it to understand why he does certain things because he's a fourth Japanese. No, no, no. Oh, that's huge. Well, I've had Japanese patients. That is huge. I want her to.

So what I tell people all the time and what I try to practice. And part of the reason we do this show is if I meet somebody, I may disagree with them based on my experiences and my perceptions, but I want to understand how they came to the conclusions that comes to based on their experiences and their perceptions. You should be at their best. Yeah, and then you have to respect them in the end for how they came there. Yeah, I mean, not to go into like a political room here, but I think it's why we get into this fragment, we get into these fragments where it's like you have your viewpoint, I have mine, but there's been very little understanding of why you have those viewpoints. And I imagine like in your line of work, that's all you do

is try to dissect someone's viewpoints, right? And I think people limit themselves in their worldview when they only can see through their perspective. That's right. You can't be a good therapist if you only see through your own perspective. Yeah, for example, like we'll have people on this show. And sometimes people, you'll see a guess that is maybe polarizing. And people will get so upset that we've had this person. I can't believe you'd have this person.

I know you don't agree with them. I go, that's the point. If you create a bubble for yourself for all you're hearing and seeing is things you like to hear and see, you become a very limited person. And so, I don't know, my perspective on the Shogun thing, which is a whole nation, by the way. I mean, like, you know, every time. I love that book, by the way.

It's incredible. I love the generations. I mean, it was great. If Kathy likes it, I'll read it. He's an incredible author. I mean, I read it when I was 20 and I'm like 200 now, so. No. They're making a whole streaming series.

Like, they're turning it into a show, which I, oh. They could do it well or not well. It'll be interesting to say. But my point is, Lauren, is that I think it's important to try to figure out someone's culture. I mean, for example, the story you just told us. Like that was all about that cultural upbringing and what they perceived as okay and not okay. And there's, you know, two clashing things. Like we would look at that here and say, I can't believe this. And he's looking at us at the same time saying, well, I can't believe you. Yeah, that's right.

That's right. What has been in your whole line of work, the most complex case besides the five incredible cases that you've written about in your book? What's been a case that made you really, really have to sit back and think? You just told us one instance, but what's something else that had a lot of complexities to it? complex were in the book and I've well I've I had I mean I'm 75 so I have had transgender before there was transgender and that was my most complex case because they had nowhere to go they didn't know where this could be changed I had to call all around you know it was it was now that's that's common but then it was

totally totally frowned upon and he was fired and he couldn't use the same washroom and there is nothing that anybody could do about it. So then it became, how do I go in the closet and do this? Because I have to have a job. So then, you know, it was sort of all of the rules of society, the rules of being transgender, everything about it became incredibly complicated. So you find out, so you find in the end, you wind up saying, I guess you've just got to go in the closet and just live that way because you can't, you'd have your job. He had a very specific high-level job, and they said, you can't do that. Can't wear a dress and use the women's washroom?

Are you insane? And then they sent him for shock therapy. They wanted him to have shock therapy. I had to intervene. So I think it's my most complex case because I had to intervene at work. I had to intervene everywhere. When you look at what 1967 was like, it was where you're, that it's psychotic behavior.

And I knew him enough to know it's not psychotic behavior, right? I mean, we know that now. But I'm saying take yourself back and you wind up having to say, no, you're not going to give him shock treatment. This isn't a psychotic episode. And you also, at this time that you're handling this, like you said, there's no colleagues to sort of talk with it. No. It's a very private issue, it seemed at the time. There's one center in Boston.

I have a question in the line of work as you do. And I don't think about exactly how I'm going to pose this. But say somebody wants to exhibit certain behaviors that are deemed maybe unacceptable by the majority of society or the framework we've created in most societies. And they feel strongly that they have to either behave or act or engage in that certain way. And at the same time, you are dealing with the structures of society. And some of those structures maybe should be broken down and not exist, but some of them maybe should. I imagine you find yourself at times having to walk a tightrope of like, okay, you have to exhibit who you are and capitalize on that and those feelings while at the same time somewhat engaged with the structure that exists. like how do you how do you walk someone through that meaning like i like like like like i can't just

go off and do whatever i want if i want to just walk into stores and say i feel i can just go and like you know rip somebody off or hurt somebody you got to say okay like you can't do that but at the same time you get what i'm trying to say here i totally totally get it i had this with in 1960s with homosexuals who would come in and say you know they wouldn't say they were homosexuals would take two years to it for that to finally come out oh my gosh you know and then it would be like what am i going to do now and then there's all all these places you could send them to to make them straight, which never, of course, doesn't work.

And, you know, it's horrible. And, you know, but who knew that then, right? And who knew that, in fact, you know, the DSM3 that defines all of psychology, who've said this as a pathology, actually later had to redact it? Right. So, but, I mean, this is the 60s. And I'm thinking, there's nothing really wrong here, right? I mean, you know, this is how this guy was, everybody's born that way.

I mean, that's the, that was the interesting part. And then there was all this stuff about when I worked in hospitals where they said you have to bring in the gay person, the homosexual person's mother because she's done something to him. So this has to be a family thing. Right. So, you know, I mean, all of that is totally changed now. So you talk about, well, what is a pathology? And now somebody comes in and says, I'm gay. And then you say, just write gay.

And then you say, so what's the problem? Right. It's not even an issue. Not even an issue. Not even an issue. But back then, if you gave that advice, you'd potentially be putting this person. in harm's way. In harm's way. And everyone said they had a cure. You know, there's all kinds of cures. And the whole thing, again, was blame the mother. The mother, it's the, you know,

it's the overprotective mother that makes the gay son. Not the father. No, the father's never blamed for anything. That was like in, uh, they still don't. They still don't. And that's, you know, the same with autism. I, I lived through the era when autism was caused by the frigid, frigid mother. That, that, that's why the kid's autistic. So not only did you have an autistic kid to deal with. You had to deal with your responsibility for it. And then it was only in the 80s that people started saying, no, actually autism isn't having anything to do with that. Reflecting on all your cases that you've done in your life, do you think that everyone's issue stems from childhood? Is that a common denominator? That's very hard because obsessive compulsives run in families. Okay. Narcissism seems to be,

you seem to be hatched a narcissist. What is, so you're born a narcissist. Yeah. I, I, I, Now, there are people out here hearing this now screaming hysterically and saying, no, you know, it's a primitive defense when your mother doesn't do blah, blah, blah, I don't buy it. I buy that narcissists are born. So have you ever seen babies exhibit narcissism? Babies, no, because all babies are narcissistic. Right. Until they learn that they have to give something.

I mean, you ever tried to get a baby to share his toy? Yeah. You know, they're like, no, fine, screw off. So you think that after all your cases that when you're born, you're just narcissistic? I don't know if I'm in a minority here or not. All I can say for sure is I have never helped a narcissist. Oh my God. Can you talk to us about that? We're really getting the dicey territory here because...

No, no, no. People love it. People love this territory. We'll clarify, never help meaning you've met narcissists, but you've not been able to have a breakthrough with them in the same way. No. No, because their egos are tiny. If you look at an ego and say it has like 200 marbles, right? Okay, a circle of 200 marbles. Okay, well, a narcissist has a circle of about four marbles, and they are terrified to lose any.

Huh. Just terrified to lose any. So I know how not to take narcissists on as patients. I always share this with psychologists at meetings is because they'll call and say, I saw four therapists, they were all awful, and I heard you were really good, right? Anybody who's seen four therapists,

it's usually the therapist has confronted them in some way, and then they're like, you are on the other side. You hate me. You know, you can, you know, so if they've been to a lot of places, and then they say, but I know you're going to be perfect, you know, don't do it. Well, they're setting you up in a trap, too. they're saying, I know that you're going to be perfect, meaning you're going to, you're going to

manipulating you in a psychopathic way. So if you do end up seeing a narcissist, say, on accident, let's say they don't do that. Oh, yeah, I've done it. So what does that look like? Are they unable to just take accountability in any aspects? They're unable to take accountability. There's a perfect narcissist in the case of Madeline, her mother. I mean, she couldn't take responsibility for anything ever. And no narcissist does. You can't have therapy where you you don't take responsibility for issues. Because then all it is is other people, the youth, you know, the therapist is yelling at you,

your husband's yelling at you. Kids are yelling at you. But it's like, why are they yelling at me? I'm doing my best. Is that one of the core elements you try to get through to people when you're working with them is to start taking personal accountability? Yes.

Maybe not the only one, but one of the core. One of the core things is you're going to have to take personal responsibility for them. And is that where you start typically or how do you? Yes, yes. I mean, you know, people come in and say, you know, my husband, the kids are all on his side. They all hate me. You know, my kids hate me.

My husband hates me. I, you know, and all I do is try to cook, clean work and do blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. So I'm saying, you right away, I'll say, well, there's an issue here. I don't, we're going to have to delve into that. And if you're real narcissists, you'll just say, oh, you're just like them, no matter how hard I try, I can't do anything right. And then they leave. What are some signs to look for if someone's listening in their own life and thinks that dealing with a narcissist, what are some signs from people? They don't take responsibility for anything. When they say something wounding, then they say to you, what's your problem?

I was just trying to help you. You know, they always play mind games. And they won't take whenever, and they actually think that they are being subtle sometimes, and they're not, right? So you have to say no, this, you know, and they never, ever say they're sorry. You know, you say you did this, it was wrong. Now we have to go back and do all of this. at work and you did this. That's what you told me to do.

If you're dealing with a narcissist and there's nothing that you can do and they can't go to therapy, what's the best way of how to deal with them if it's a family member or a friend? Right. What I always say to people who have a narcissist in their family is don't be alone with them because they always come up with things that they're at their worst when they've got you on a one-to-one. Really? Yeah. No, it's like a mother-in-law who's narcissistic, right? Don't be alone with her because she'll say, oh, you know, oh, my boy is such a bad boy. Honestly, he didn't even help you do the snow today.

He was just so, and I say, yeah, he's lazy, whatever. Then later, she says to him to the husband, your wife said you were lazy. Oh. Yeah, yeah. So, yeah. So you try to deflect it. Yeah. So when he says, when they say things like, oh, he is so bad, just say, oh, I adore him.

But also, make the rule, I'm not going to be alone with that narcissist. Because everybody knows the narcissists. and everybody runs and flees, right? And then you're stuck with them. Like, no, I'm not going to deal with this narcissist. Because they are all, narcissists are always manipulating. And they also feel when you attack them, when you say, like if you say, you shouldn't have said that I said he was lazy, you took it out of context.

And she'll say, why? Why are you hurting me in such a terrible way? Right. So it's exhausting. It's exhausting. It's exhausting. So it's best to never be alone with them. And never, whenever they try.

to, whatever they're trying to get out of you, don't let them. Because it'll come back and haunt you in another way. So you just completely just stay stoic and calm. Just so, yeah, I'm sorry you feel that way. What's the difference between someone who's a narcissist and borderline personality? Oh, there's about 500 papers written on that. What are some things that you've seen that's common ground? Border lines are self-destructive in a lot of ways. usually borderlines will have some self-harming things that they do. They will... Like actual self-harming or just do behaviors that harm them? No, actual self-framing.

I mean, I've worked in hospital, so I see the borderlines that are really, you know, done the slashing and that, you know, all that stuff. And the other thing about borderlines is they have a fantasy of... What's the name of that movie? What's a name? It's a perfect example of a borderline.

Glenn Close, the bunny movie. Oh, yeah. A fatal attraction. No, fatal attraction. Fatal attraction. Fatal Attraction. I don't know why I went to Donnie Darko, but I went to Donnie Darko. Taylor's laughing back there. I heard Bunny and I was like, but yeah, fatal attraction. Fatal attraction. That's a perfect example of borderline where she has a fantasy that they're having an amazing relationship.

And she can't separate the fantasy from the reality. So she becomes enraged because her thing is we're getting married. We've been together. We have a wonderful relationship. Now you're backing out when in fact they'd had a one-night stand. Right? But that, but she does a not, her fantasy is, you know, the whole Barbie fantasy. And then because she's getting annihilated, she feels annihilated the borderline. She reaches, she figures, I've got to kill him because this is what he's trying to do to me. He's trying to kill me. So it's a little bit delusion. Delusion. Now, I was reading a big chapter about grandiose delusion. This is different, correct? Grandiose delusion is when you think you're sort of better than you are, right? Yes. Yes. What are signs of that? Well, that goes back to narcissism. It goes back to borderlines. Okay. Because, you know,

I mean, there are all kinds of grandiosities, right? I mean, schizophrenics have grandiosities all the time that they're, you know, the Virgin Mary or, you know, head of Wall Street, you know, whatever. But part of, part of delusions is very often delusions of grandeur. Like, here's an example. I saw in rounds once there was a psychiatrist and he was asking that you know we were like there's 20 people there to see the case and he's asking the patient he said so what is your job and I think his job was he was a janitor somewhere and he said my job is I'm a psychiatrist so he said oh you have delusions of grander and I said actually he has delusions okay you're the one with delusions of grandeur if you think that that's delusions of grandeur I mean so it's like this psychiatrist was was he didn't even get

that he was saying, you know, oh, you think you're wonderful like me. Ah. Yeah. Yeah. That's interesting. So he's the one that has. Yeah. So everybody. That's interesting. Yeah. He never spoke to me again in the room. Enjoyed it. But that's the end of that. But that makes total sense what you said. I have like a strange question following that. So a lot, we've talked about your line of work on this show many times. I just see on your book. Lori wrote you a quote there. She's been on the show. Oh, right. No. She's wonderful. She's wonderful. And hi, Lori. There's a lot of people thinking about getting into therapy. But to your point, like how do you know you're with somebody who's credible and who's kind of together and who you can trust

and who is also not having these kind of thought like I think that's a lot of hesitation is I'm going to come bear my soul to you I need to make sure I'm in good hands absolutely credentials aren't important you know I used to think they were but then you know I've seen a number of people who have great credentials and they weren't really very good there are a lot of people screaming at the phone right now screaming at the yeah yeah yeah that doesn't bother me because I I think most I call it. I've said credentials aren't as important as other things on this show and people eat me alive. Okay. No, no.

To be academic and to be academically successful is one side of your brain. The other side is helping people and knowing how to do that. And they don't necessarily go together. Of course. It's EQ. Well, I think on another tan, I think sometimes this is, I think in any field, it's like you can look at the credentials, but you also then have to know the person. You have to know the person. And so what I say is ask three people that you've noticed who've changed.

Ask, you know, sometimes when people are neurotic at work and they're doing this and that and then suddenly they're just not that neurotic anymore. Ask them, say, you've really changed. How did you change? And get the name of three therapists from people that in your life you respect the changes they've made. You know, and I think that, I mean, I think that's the most important. The way that I have found the cutest pet gear for your pets. is going to blow your mind. Fabal Pets. You guys, you've seen it on my Instagram stories. I saw this

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This deal is not available on their regular website, so you're going to go to Haya, H-I-A-H-E-A-H-E-A-L-T-H-H-H-T-H-H-T-H-H-T-H-H-T-H-T-H-T-T-L-S-S-S-S-S-S-S-S-S-S-S-S-S-S-S-S-S-S-S-S-S-S-E. I think everyone who's listening can think of someone that they know who's deeply insecure, but has a real insecurity about them. They often go to therapists for 12 years. Right. And I would love, yes, I would love for you to talk about insecurity where it comes from, why they go to therapists for 12 years.

And is that something that you can ever solve? Oh, I think you can. I mean, look at someone like Madeline. I mean, she was terribly insecure. She didn't believe anybody could love her. She felt underneath it all. Remember when she free-associated, she felt she was a monster. Because her mother told her every day of her life.

Good morning, monster. And the mother didn't say it with any irony. You know, so she actually met, oh, you, monster down here again in the kitchen. Oh. You know, so, I mean, that's what she thought she was, a monster. And she thought that she did a tremendous amount to cover it up with all of her Prata clothing and her millions of dollars and of her millions of assistance and all of that stuff. She built this whole web around herself, but nobody could fly in the office.

They couldn't go on flights to sell their stuff that they were supposed to sell, because she was convinced that the planes were going to crash. And that, I mean, and that goes back to the insecurity of really loving that guy, Anton, and then saying, I am too unlovable. No one would love me. I'm not even a normal person. I'm a monster. And if somebody gets together with me, they're going to figure that all out.

and I have to keep everybody at bay. And that's why she's so bitchy. So if someone is super insecure, do you think, like, Madeline, that it comes from the childhood? Usually, yeah. Although I, you know, although I know parents, some parents who have said,

this kid was born, was born insecure. You know, like the other three jumped on the slide in the swings, and he is like, I don't want to. I mean, so, you know, I don't want to, you got to be careful about blaming the parent, Because there's all kinds of illnesses where they've been blamed over generations. Not parents, the mother, you know, gets blamed. And sometimes people do come into the world with a certain amount of insecurity.

You know, he always wants to sit on my lap. The other two just ran around and played. Again, saying this delicately, a lot of people that struggle sometimes use their childhood as a reason that they struggle, right? And it's like, it's a crutch. It's like, well, I can never be this or do that because of my child. And they can't get past that narrative. That's right.

Even if their childhood was completely healthy and they had no issues, right? It's just like that's their narrative. And it's an easy thing to say, well, this is not on me. It's on my upbringing. It's not taking accountability. I mean, you know, you can say, okay, your parents did this, this, and this. What are you going to do about it now? I don't want to hear any more.

A lot of therapy is hearing about the parents, et cetera. But then the last third of therapy should be how are we going to change that? Yeah, I mean, growing up around here and in L.A. at San Diego, there's a lot of kids that grew up very in great lives. If you look across the world, they grew up fine. But maybe they didn't achieve maybe what their parents have achieved or what their siblings have achieved. And like I hear so many times these individuals

blaming their upbringing. Their parents are like, well, no, maybe you're just being lazy and maybe you're not taking advantage of your circumstances and maybe you could do a little more. And there's a thing in statistics called regression to the mean. And it means that if you're tall and your mother's tall the father's tall and the mother's tall, you might, you're going to be tall too. But it doesn't make, it doesn't go, there's always, it goes back to the mean because otherwise

people would eventually be seven feet tall. Yeah. Right? And so, I mean, so once in a while you get these two highly successful people, LA has filled with them, you know, highly successful people. And their kid isn't going to be that successful. You know, they don't have either the drive, the IQ, the, all of the things that go into it, right?

I mean, so, I mean, you can't have each successful couple getting, their kids more successful. I mean, that doesn't work that way. There's always going to be a regression to the mean. Yeah, there's a, that author Robert Green, he wrote that 48 laws of power. Yeah. Okay. Everyone sees that book, but there's a law in that book which like never follow in a great man's shoes. Not saying you can't be ambitious, but say your, your father or mother is some huge, you know, you know, whatever performer in whatever field. And then the kid tries to live up to that. Like, yeah, it's like maybe choose a different path. That's right. Choose a totally different path. Yeah. And you're always a loser. Because you're compared to that.

Because they go, is your father so-and-so? And you're like, oh. Right. So choosing a different path helps you stand out and forge your own life. Because you may be a winner, but if you're being compared to somebody who's on that level, you're going to look, you're going to look at your short. No matter what you're, you know, it's going to, it's going to be, oh, I'm the loser of this family. Did I live up to, you know, the Bill Gates? No, his child did not live up to Bill Gates, right?

But he could be a million other things. When you have all these cases, is there a choice? trait that you see in confident children. What makes a confident child? Like, what can parents do at home to help support confidence in their child? Rules. Children feel confident when they know the rules, and you're not changing them, right? That's interesting. I don't think anyone's ever said that. Oh, well, you know, yeah, I used to work in the child and the adolescent ward at, you know, huge old bastion of a mental hospital. That's how I started out. And they calm down as soon as they knew what the rules were and that no matter what,

you weren't changing them. Because they'll try to manipulate, manipulate, manipulate, because with the parent, if you manipulate enough and then you're like, I'm going to kill myself, I'm going to get a knife and go like that. I'm going to do, you know, well, you got to do what you got to do. After a while, it all stops. It's like the kid that threatens to run away and goes to the driveway. Yeah, that's right. That's right.

Yeah, right. Yeah, right. You know, is also for parents not to put emotional baggage into what they're saying, you know, no, you cannot have another popsicle. You've already had a popsicle. Okay. I need another popsicle. I'm boiling on.

I have to have another bopsicle. And, you know, then saying, you're driving me nuts, no more of popsicles. That doesn't help. You know, it's like, no, we had that discussion. I'm not having that discussion again. So, but not putting your own emotions into it because then he's one. And he's like, oh, she's really flipped out now. So it's just a clear boundary.

Just have a clear boundary. Yeah. And do not think they're doing this to you. Huh. I have another personal question for you. Obviously, we're here to talk mostly about your book Good Morning Monster and these five stories that you put in there and, you know, the show we're working on together, which I'm so excited about by the way.

I think it's going to be phenomenal. But in your line of work, you being an individual, you dealing with these kind of stories and these kind of cases. I imagine it has to at times take an emotional toll. Or are you able to separate that and kind of put the briefcase down, go home, and be like, okay, out of... I always wonder, I think about this with doctors that see crazy things. I think about it with people like you, just people that are in a position where they're trying to help people that are in terrible positions. Like, what does that do to you?

Right. I can now admit this since I am retired. It never did anything to me. some people are extremely empathetic and that's how they work. You know, like they feel for you and they, da-da-da-da-da. I've never been that type. I've always been like the problem solver. You know, like I make charts. And it's like, okay, this happened, this happened.

And then you felt this way. And just sort of sort everything out and say, okay, we have to accomplish this, this, this and this. You're almost like a detective. Yeah, yeah. Well, like, that's why people tell me that my stories read like detective stories because it's like, you know, it's like with with someone like Madeline, you know, the monster thing

was one of our breakthroughs where she actually felt she was a monster. Well, if you feel you're a monster, then everything falls into place. Oh, no wonder you can't marry somebody. No one, they'll find out what a monster you are. But you have to find out first that they think they're a monster.

And even it's so crazy that just that line that her mom said, two seconds of her mother's day to say good morning monster, affected her to actually believe she was monster. I mean, it's so crazy. Oh, everybody believes their mother. Everybody believes their mother. And like, remember in the book when she said, well, I don't, one time she tried to have a little bit of

ego strength. And she said, mom, I am captain of my tennis team. I'm the smartest one at my school. I'm head girl. I'm this. I'm that. She goes, I know. Because they don't know you. I know you. Only a mother knows their child. She was like, oh, that's a narcissistic mother, right? That's the narcissistic mother, right? Yeah, I mean, a normal mother would say, great, yeah, you did well and we're proud of you. That's fantastic. What was it like working in a mental institution? It was depressing.

Yeah. It was depressing because it was way back when I stopped that and went into private practice because I said, first of all, when you have children in a psychiatric hospital, you can get them straightened out in pretty record time, right? you know, because they're not, you stop the reinforcement schedule of the parent, right? Then they go home. What do you mean the reinforcement schedule of the parent? What does that mean? Where the parent will reinforce the wrong behavior. Okay.

You know, they'll say, he yells and screams all the time. And he's yelling and screaming because they're letting him do stuff. And then the next day, they don't let him do those things. Right. So if you let him watch TV one day and then the next day you don't. Yeah. The kid's like, I want to watch TV. What are you crazy?

where if you have rules, then they just sound, it isn't because suddenly we're the good parent. It's not that. It's that they adjust right away by saying, it's a waste of breath.

It's not going to go anywhere. You know, where, I mean, if you, in fact, give in to your kid, it's called intermittent reinforcement. It's the most powerful reinforcement you can have, where you don't let them watch TV,

don't let them, don't let them, and then let them. And then don't let them, don't let them, let them, let them, let them. So they just keep trying. If I do this 20 times, I'm going to get to watch TV,

TV. So it's better to just wake up and say you can watch 30 minutes of TV and this is it. You can watch 30 minutes of TV. You pick out what your program is for today and you let me know because they'll later say, well, I didn't want to watch that program. Or you have the other policy where like this is just not a thing that happens in the house or to your point like you've already had a popsicle. There is no more. Like so there's no, what you're saying is essentially you can't do something one day and then change it the next day and then change it the third day and then cut it off the fourth thing. That's right. Or you have the manipulative parent or the parents that are that the child is manipulating up the middle. You know, I need a popsicle. No, you've had a popsicle. The father says,

why can't you have a popsicle? It's boiling hot. Ooh, I do that sometimes. Right. You know, I do that sometimes. Oh, that is one thing where I'm saying, oh, I get it. I get it. She's not really in charge. If you want to play therapist for a second, come out of retirement for a minute, that is the one issue. Like, If I say no and she says yes, that's a one thing. I'm like, we can't do that. We have to be aligned. And the thing is, is. He's going to bring me.

I have people, no, I have clients that I've sent to parenting groups. And that's one of the things that happens in a parenting group. If the father or let's say the mother says, no, the sky is made of cheese, the father says, yes, the sky is made of cheese. And then later you get together and say, the sky isn't made of cheese. And you really need to let him know that. Well, you know, never disagree in front of your kid. Because that is how they manipulate right up the middle. Again, not to personally attack them, but I imagine what this.

No, no, no, no, not moving the subject. Well, everyone who's a parent, I mean, there's, it's a minefield. You know, they all have stuff. I imagine, though, for a number of reasons, this is one of the primary reasons divorce is so hard on children because you now have two parents, parenting in separate households, maybe at times not being aligned and you can pit one against the other. That's right. That's right.

And then they say, I don't do that at daddy's house. And then it makes the other parent feel. bad. But it's actually my, I have had, this is just based on a few friends I've had who had, she said it's much easier because now no one disagrees to the date. I just say, well, that's daddy's house. Oh. I have my own rules. And she said, now nobody disagrees with them. And, and, you know, because the father was, it was spoiling them. And she was like, no, no, no. Now he spoils them like crazy when they're there. And she has the rules of this. She said, and then when they grow up and now they're grown up, they're like, oh my God, he didn't even make us go to school. What the

how it was wrong with him. Huh. You know, I mean, it all comes back to haunt you. Yeah. So when you're hearing these stories, and specifically these ones that are in your book, and you have these patients telling you these, at times, horrific things, how do you manage that? Like, do you?

You know, I look at these things as problem solving. And then, but so sometimes I'll wake up at night and I won't feel sorry for the patient. I'll just say, I know what the problem is here. We need to do this, this and this. and that's just my personality. I think if you're very emotionally labile and you really want to relate to

or feel the emotion that the other person is feeling, you're going to trouble as a therapist. You know, I mean, I think, you know, you have to understand them, relate to them, but if you're going to feel all of their feelings, then, you know, the end of the day, you're a disheg. When you were, I want to go back to the mental institution, when you were working, you said it was depressing,

were you feeling like you were feeling some of their issues in the mental institution, which is why you switched? I didn't like spending too much time on kids' behavior when they were going to go home to that crazy house. Right. And they'd come back again. Even if they went home for the weekend, they'd come back on Monday exactly the way they were six months ago.

And I thought, it was like digging a hole and then putting, you know, the dirt back in. So, but so then, you know, I didn't mind. What I liked about that mental hospital was I liked, we did multiple family things. And the more family therapy you did, the better it was. I mean, I was sort of like, let's skip the kids and just do the parents, right? I mean, they're exhibiting behavior that's normal given what these people are telling them. Why are people putting their kids in mental institutions? Like, what is the reason that you would do that? Okay. Let me think of one. School phobia. They don't want to go to school. Won't go to school. Okay. Yeah. And then, you know, that gets dire. But maybe there's something going on at school with a teacher or something. And yeah, and if that's the case, if that's the case, they don't wind up in the hospital.

Got it. What happens is where, like I'm thinking of a case that we had where the mother was frightened and didn't want her kid to be, she didn't want the kid to leave. She was frightened of life. She was frightened of everything and she liked having her kid at home. So goraphobia? Not really. The agoraphobics is where you won't go out, right?

But this is a kind of disturbed attachment. Okay. You know, where you're like, oh, she doesn't have to go, you know, she cries. She said, the tip off with her was I said, did you cry when your child went to kindergarten? Because people sometimes do that. And she said for three weeks. And I thought, oh, okay. So the kid picks up on this.

I'm killing my mother by going to school. So they end up in a mental institution because they won't go to school, though? Well, that's what happens. Yeah. I mean, that is what happens. And then I have others that are this kind of grotesque. I don't think I'll talk about that case. This is the perfect podcast to do it.

It's a very open point. We had another, we had another, a kid who put feces in different people's purses. Yeah. That's a cry for attention, right? What's more than that? It's very disturbed. Like, I mean, your reaction right away. Yeah.

What was your reaction? Yeah. I mean, it's, it is grotesque. It is grotesque. So school said, we're not taking him anymore. Oh, at school he did it in front of it. He does it every, he did it everywhere, took his own fichies and put them in places. What is that, though?

What is that from? Okay. So we had his mother in. We did, you know, but sometimes, you know, parents can pull a good, can pull a wool over your eyes. If you have them long enough, you'll find out, right? Because they're almost trying to, it's like, it's, they're trying to protect her child while also maybe protecting themselves. While manipulating the therapist. And, and also, I mean, I think the mother had kind of a low IQ.

She lived through the war. She was a cook in a big, you know, institution. And she was, she thought scatological things. were funny. I know. So then one day I said, you know, he's done this and put this in blah, blah, blah, and she went, oh, I never would have thought of that one. Ooh, so she was positive reinforcing when he did it by laughing. And so he was trying to impress. And the ingenious ways he came up with hiding this. So then you realize, oh, wow, okay, like how are we going to break this behavior? Because the normal reaction is we got to put a stop to this. Right. So I'm talking.

about very disturbed parent, a very disturbed parent. And then the kid wasn't as disturbed, but I mean, he became that behavior. No school would take them. I mean, it is a kind of behavior that is very, very offensive. Right? But this is what I was, so earlier when I asked you about you have people that feel, so you have to, you have a tightrope where you're walking like, okay, you have to help this person and navigate them and kind of let them lean into themselves in some cases.

Well, also like this is a clear societal boundary that. is absolutely not to be crossed, right? And I think like this is, I think, a very difficult tightrope for someone like you to walk because at what point do you draw the line and say, we accept this behavior, but we don't accept this behavior. Exactly. Exactly. Like nothing about scatology is acceptable. Even, you know, like, and it's the same as, you know, I mean, putting feces in a purse in 1800, 1900, 20th century. It's all bad. Yeah, I think that, again, And like we are in, we're living through interesting times where the boundaries that we have discussed on this show and what you and I believe to be beneficial to many people's development are not clear any longer. No, no, exactly.

And that's, that's really a good statement. And they're just not clear. It's not a judgment as much as it is. It's like, what is the boundary? Right. What is the language? What is the boundary? Because if we have a system where everything.

is accepted based on the way everybody feels at every time, you have absolute chaos. Yeah, absolute. And this is a reaction. It happens about every 20 years. I mean, the reaction to 1950 toilet training, right? Everyone should be toilet trained by 18 months, no matter what it takes. You know, no matter what, and everyone goes, I did it. You know, and that, you know, who cares? Then now there's this reaction of he can go to kindergarten and diapers. No, that's crazy too. So, I mean, they say, well, we don't want that stuff in the 1950s where it was really awful. You know, so yeah, there's this reaction. And now it's like...

It's like a correction. It's like a correction. And then the correction goes back to the middle where it probably should be. Yep. You know? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, like, this is... It's like political correctness in general or wokeness and all of these things that's like, you know,

there was all this crazy stuff about gays and all this crazy stuff in the 50s and 60s. And then it's gone all the way to another level. and it's going to correct itself. Yeah, yeah, because I say all the time, especially on this platform, I say there's right and there's left and there's middle and then there's the extremes, which is where we are right now. And I think what happens is, one of the things I said during the pandemic is the danger with extremes is they get met with extremes. Yes.

Right? So you see these issues that have not been issues for 20 years become massive issues. Massive issues. Yeah, somebody has gotten away. They've pushed an extreme agenda. And the answer to that is the other side pushes a more extreme. stream agenda and then you end up in this place where everyone's like, how the hell did this even happen? You got to get back to the middle somehow. That's right. That's right. You mentioned off air about

how you ran out of empathy. And I thought that was so refreshing to hear from someone who has been such an incredible therapist, be really honest. Can you talk about that? Well, I was a therapist for 25 years and, you know, when people would come in and say, I have this problem. I wouldn't, I, I would I'd seen so many. I'd say, oh, okay, here's this problem. Here's what we have to do. And we're going to have to do this, this and this. It became formulaic.

It became formulaic. And it was no more where I was like, I've got to read books on this. I want to understand this. I want to. It's not so much lack of empathy, but it was, I've been there. I've done this before. I know how to do this. And I don't like that.

That's a bad feeling. Because it's no challenge. It's no challenge. And then there's nothing new. I was never hugely empathetic. It's just not, you know, everybody has a, scale of how empathetic they are, how much they are a problem solver. I'm low on the empathy. What's the line between empathetic and sympathetic? Sympathetic is where you say, oh, I really,

I really feel sorry for you. That's terrible. And empathetic is, I really feel what you're feeling. Okay. Right. And, you know, I find empathy strange anyway, because you really don't know what people are feeling. I mean, I don't know what those five patients were feeling. And to say, I know what you were feeling is crazy, right? But then also, whatever empathy I had was dwindling. And I thought, I don't think I'm giving people as much as I gave them when I started out. And I thought, time to stop. So I just, at 50, said, that's it. And then I became a writer. But I mean, I was a damn good writer. But I just, you know, I mean, sometimes people are the major wagerner and they have to plug on to, you know, 65, where I've, you know, I've had a lot of friends. And most of them

are male. They're saying, I can't take another minute. minute. Oh my God. Tell someone who cares. Uh, you know, that, because to be empathetic all day is draining. Well, that's what kind of what I was asking you earlier. It's like you're taking on all of this heavy, heavy energy. Not like people are coming in and talking to you about how great everything's going all the time. Oh, God, that never happens. Yeah, it's all, I mean, it's just, it's, I think it's a job, very few can do well. And I'm not saying people can't do it. I just mean Absolutely. For at least long, sustained periods.

And again, I've not been in your position, but I imagine just that constant. I mean, we all know what it's like to go to a dinner with somebody who's draining. Oh, yeah. Or maybe, like, depressing. I'm slumping in my chair as you speak. Yeah, and what's the reaction is I want to get out of here. So imagine that's your job and you're doing it every single day. But if you're looking at it as a problem and looking past the emotion and saying, how did this happen?

What is it stored in this unconscious that I have to bring out? then it becomes interesting. And it's like, how am I going to, you know, how many layers are there here? And then the other interesting part, and I failed at this in the Madeline case, is you have to know exactly how much to confront someone and know when to do it. And also maybe no one to stop because some people's egos are so fragile that you probably have to gently confront them. I know. And it's so, yeah, and I was being a smarty pants, you know, which is my won't. and I said, oh, you're in love with Anton.

I just figured that out. And she said, get out. Remember, she fell apart completely? It was like she couldn't, she wasn't ready to hear that. So, you know, what was I? So, I mean, you know, like I would, I should have come at that over a two or three month period, not one day. Or what, it seemed like a lot in your book, you let the patient be the hero and come

to their own conclusion. If they don't come to their own conclusion, they don't change. Right. So you're almost their guide. Yes, yes. But sort of a, yeah, I guess you could use the word guide. You can't, you can't say you are this and you are that and you're in love and without them. Yeah, no.

I mean, first of all, anybody can do that. Anybody could have in the office, Vienna could have said, you're in love with him. God, it's obvious, right? I mean, you know, it doesn't take a psychologist. The psychologist should be thinking, okay, she's beginning to feel, feelings of love and they're terrifying for her because guess her parents loved her i'm using that in quotes you know they didn't really love her father betrayed her several times wouldn't let her in the house because these two crazy women because a woman he was with after the mother he said no you can't come in

the house because she gets too upset so and i mean it was like oh he loves me but he betrays me oh my mother says you know what i'm only trying to help you you know and and i'm i'm you know you're i'm your mother the one that can tell you things. But actually, you're not feeling any love from her. You're feeling incredible hostility. So when you start to feel love for someone, all it brings is terror. We interviewed the owner of Barefaced, Jordan Harper on the show. If you haven't listened, you have to go back and listen. It was like Episode 595. And she gave me the secret project that she was working on. Their barefaced, new reusable eye patches, they hadn't launched. So I got a chance to experiment with them.

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Plus, you get free shipping. Just go to the farmer's dog.com slash skinny. Go to the farmer's dog.com slash skinny. Go to the farmer's dog.com slash skinny. Do you think the reason parents are unable to love their children the way that they should be loved is because they're narcissists themselves. Or they're damaged. Yeah. Or they're damaged. Yeah. You know, it's like the guerrillas that I talk about in the Madeline case.

You know, I worked with a friend who's a veterinarian at the zoo and they have, you know, they captured these guerrillas, brought them over in crates when they were babies and dumped them at the zoo. And then they, so they never had a troop. They never saw other, they never saw other things. They never saw, you know, what is it called? Grooming, which is the first thing you do is grooming, and then you go from there to group play. Then you go from there to, it takes about 25 steps to get to sex, right?

Right. So they never saw any of this, right? So then they tried to mate them because they wanted to have more gorillas. So they brought in some male guerrillas, and the females went out of their minds. They thought they were being attacked, and they just thought, what is this behavior? So people think sexual instinct is innate. It's not. there's huge number of steps that you go through before.

I mean, think of what you were like at seven or eight. Someone said you should have sex, right? I mean, I don't know how old your kids are, but mine, when any sex was on TV when they were seven or eight, they go, oh, and cover their faces. They're frightened of it, right? Well, this is how the guerrillas are. They wouldn't do it. So then they decided, okay, will artificially inseminate them?

So they did. most of them miscarried, but one of them had this child. And I saw the whole movies of this that my friend did. The second the child was born, she tried to kill it. She just was like running around trying to kill it. She said she didn't understand what birth was. She'd never seen it. She didn't have a mother.

She didn't know anything about what goes on in the world. She had never had a mother. She never had a father. And she lived in a cage. And suddenly she excreted something that wanted to crawl on top of her. When you say it like that, it sounds insane. It sounds insane. Like she was just going, oh my God, get out of here. Ah, ah. It's a giant bug. Ah, ah. Then they thought, okay, but how do we get her to bond? So then they called me and said, because I'm a bonding person. They said, how are we going to get this to bond? And I said, well, the mother's got to spend time with it, right? She put the mother keeps trying to kill it. So then she gave it a whack, and it just was out like a light, poor little thing, right? So then they put a football helmet, a little red football helmet on. And they tried to really, you know, like make, make, he was like dressed as a little tiny football player so that for the mother, you know, that she had more of a chance to bond but not hurt him. It didn't work. So finally they had to, then the thing perpetuates where they have to separate them. And then, you know, now that baby's going to be alone. And, and, you know, the gorilla's on. So you can say, okay, well, how can parents do this, this and this? Well, that gorilla had no idea what birth was, what sex was, what, and she didn't even start out with the grooming.

grooming is where the mother picks little bugs off you. And, you know, there's about 30 stages. Never had any of them. So what you're saying is if you don't see love and you don't see nurturing and you don't see like a mother bonding with with a baby, then how can you go do that yourself? That's right. It's not totally innate. There's some innate qualities. Like you'll see little girls will pick up a baby, you know, doll, hold it, hold it. But that's because the mother's picked up babies. Ah. So, I mean, it's a little bit innate, but it means cues. So you mentioned time. If someone feels like they're not bonding with a baby, what you're recommending is to spend time with the baby. Yeah, yeah.

And I mean, what happens is when people aren't bonding with babies, they spend more and more time away because they're anxious. Right. Before, you know, I know we're going about time here, but before you have obviously so many fans, including us, of this book you wrote. And when Lauren discovered the story, obviously fell in love. we first learned about it from Glenn and Doyle and now, obviously through Dear Media, we're working on an

adaptation for your book. For listeners that are fans of the book, what would you tell them that's maybe going to be a different version or something that they haven't seen or heard from what we're currently working on now? Because I think, like, you obviously have the audiobook, but I think what we're doing here is different. Oh, it's different. Yeah. It's almost like a radio play from the 30s. You know, I mean, you're, you've taken the story. You've had actors acted out. And I was very pessimistic about how you were going to do this because there's so many thoughts in it. But I mean, you did a fantastic job, you know, where you had where you had Kathy, the therapist, talked to Jess, the other therapist. So that in fact, her thoughts and because that was a challenge for the way the book's written. Because it's from your perspective. That's right. How are you going to make it work in audio? Yeah. And also when we looked at this, we felt you can't, you can't do this book in one, you can't do the whole thing. There'll be too many people, too many characters in one season.

So we broke it down to focus on one chapter and all of that. But yeah, no, I mean, I think. It's a very difficult chapter to do. It's the most difficult in the book in the sense that she's the least favorite character. Because people have feelings about rich people. She's enormously rich, right? And she's. Why is that?

I was talking about, with this with a friend. last night. Why do people have such energy that if you're rich, you can't have problems? That, you know, that poor little rich girl. It's that same story, right? It was a Gloria Vanderbilt story. It's, you know, it goes on and on and on. It's in myth. It's in, it's in, you know, as Joseph Campbell says, the most primitive myths are the unhappy rich, you know, king. So, I mean, because people are desperate for, I'm not desperate for money, so I don't think about money all the time, but if in fact you have a job or you're just barely making it, and then, you know, Madeline says, get me that sweater at Vienna in every color, I like it. You're thinking, I can't even buy a sweater.

Right. So you're, you know, you feel bitter. Like, look at the policeman when she was left for, where her parents went to Russia and they left her for six weeks, right? That police, were called because the alarm went off and the one policeman said to the other, I think we should do something like call family services or something. I mean, she's alone. And then she said, are you kidding? She's in a mansion. Right. She's going to be okay. And these parents know what they're doing. There's cleaning ladies coming and going like so, I mean, part of what was her jealousy of the child. And the other thing is when you're really rich and you're mistreated, no one will help you. Right? Because at least when you look at Laura,

or one of the other cases in the book, when she was found abandoned, she went to child services. They found something where for her to go, where if you're rich and you're mistreated, no one helps you. Yeah, I also think that, again, and this is a subject that, you know, people they're going to feel strongly about, but I feel if you don't have money or what you perceive to be enough or a lot of money, a lot of the time people look at money as something that solves all of your problems.

Like, especially if you've never had it. Like, oh, they have money, so they must not have problems because the money solves their problems. When many of the people we've met, you know, that's what is that saying? More money, more money, more problems. Like, they have all sorts of problems. They just may not be the same problems. Like, they're not struggling to pay the mortgage, but money causes a lot of family issues. It causes a lot of issues around validation, who has this, who has more, who has less.

Like, there's a lot of children that struggle that come from family. with a ton of money because they live in these kind of worlds where maybe they feel they don't attain the same level of success. There's all sorts of addiction. I guess what I'm saying is, you know, we were at dinner with a couple of us and they're like, they grew up privilege, but they were talking about the many issues that their family has faced. Some of them very severe, you know, and they're like nobody will ever validate those issues or feel sorry for them because their first response is, well, they have money, so it's not an issue. Well, the majority of issues in families when they break, I was surprised by this and probably tells you what a Pollyanna I am about money is the majority of issues in families are financial. That doesn't, I've heard also that the majority of issues and marriages come down to being financial issues. I know, yeah, like the marital issues are financial.

I'm going, wow, that, you know, that's amazing. Because when you only have a certain amount of money and he says, I want to have a motorcycle and she says, no, we need, you know, two strollers. there's a huge fight. I mean, it's all about priorities, too. And those priorities become incredibly important when you don't have enough money. Yeah, I used to have a more myopic view, but I realize as I've grown older,

what I perceive to be as maybe a non-issue. Like, if somebody comes to me and says, I've lost my job, my first thing is, I won't get another job. But if that's the most severe thing that's ever happened in your life, that might be the most catastrophic event that you've ever felt or experienced.

where that's, you know, for me, it's like, you know, my wife lost her mother at a young age, she's going to look at somebody that's lost that job and compare it against something that traumatic. Yeah, she's going to say, get a life. But it doesn't mean that that person is not feeling a certain way about what they perceive to be the worst event of their life. And the other thing is, why do they perceive it as the worst event of their life? Usually it goes back to something. It goes back to where, you know, the father says, you know, you are never going to know what amount to anything. Look at your brother.

He had a paper route. He did this. He's been working since he was third. and you played hockey. You know, you're going to pay for that someday, young man, and then he loses his job. And it's like, oh, I'm lazy.

I'm just, I'm all the things my father said I was. And those things get said, not in such an obvious way. They get said subtly. Oh, here's our happy go lucky guy. You know,

you know, he translates that to lazy. Yeah, like one person could lose a ton of money and the other person lose the same amount of money. One person may not care at all. And the other person might say, this is the worst thing that's ever happening.

Exactly. And it happens all the time like that. Like I was reading about, I had a very rich client and he lost everything. I read about it. It was headlines in the newspaper. And he came in. He never mentioned it. He was just saying, oh, my wife, I don't know.

We're still having those issues and, you know, blah, blah, blah. And I thought, I wonder if he's going to mention this. Nope. Across the board, what do you see with people who are suicidal or commit suicide? What is usually the thought process behind that or the process? I actually, it's very hard to know who's going to commit suicide. It's very, very hard to know because many people threaten suicide. Women threaten suicide much, much more than men.

So with women, when they, you know, you have to look at the statistics. And you have to, because the women will say, I feel like killing myself. But that doesn't carry the threat that it does with an Aboriginal who says, I think I'm going to kill myself. The chances are they will. You look at men between the, you think, oh, the highest, suicide rate in Canada is among aboriginals, right? It's not. The highest suicide rate is among men 65 and older who live alone. Interesting. Yeah. So I mean, they just, they just like blow their brains out and then, you know, somebody. They're done. Is it usually a secret with therapy or are people usually

very vocal? Like, is it something where they come and they're doing therapy and then all of a sudden they kill themselves or do they let you know? Men tend to just kill themselves. If women say more than three times they're going to kill themselves. And then you kind of say, okay, this is a way of expressing desperation. But it's not, you know, but then sometimes people do kill themselves. And you're like the therapist and you're like, oh my God, I missed it. She was always saying she was going to do something like that. And then she actually did it.

You know, I mean, it's, you know, it's very, very difficult because sometimes, you know, people, you want to look at the statistics, but sometimes people walk right out of the statistics. Huh. You know, we've had 11-year-old children and psych hospitals kill themselves. Oh my gosh. That's maybe contributing to the depression that you feel when you're in a mental institution when you're working there. You wrote a book, too, along with Good Morning Monster, about Darwin and Freud. Why did you decide to write about both of them? What research did you do? Why did you decide to? Oh, this is a long story. I was very interested in Freud and I began reading very early.

Freud and Freud was a biologist. Before he was ever anything else and he was a, you know, a science guy. Then he, he was very, very much of a fan of Darwin. Now Darwin, you know, origin of species, etc. So I started reading

all of Darwin and saying, Darwin wrote a whole thing on sexual selection. That was his second book. But Darwin was afraid to come forward with his sexual theory because he was already he's, you know, he's upper crust English. He's, you know, he's like, no, I don't want to do that. Freud was a Jew already an outcast in Vienna, 75 years later, and he's saying,

I'm going to take these ideas and run with it, I think. And so I wrote that, that was the thesis. But it was based off of the stuff Darwin had kind of started working on, but was scared. Yeah, yeah, that's right. Right. And so the famous Freud stuff is his psych stuff. Nobody pays attention to all the biology he did. And nobody pays attention to the psych stuff that Darwin did because he became so famous for the other stuff. Interesting. Yeah. So what was the sexual theory for anyone who's listening that doesn't know? that basically everything comes down to sex. And Darwin says, you know, he gives, you know, Darwin is famous for hundreds of examples

until you finally fall over in your chair and say, okay, I believe it, right? I mean, he, like the deer, the male deer, they often die in the wild because they are horns, which are huge, get stuck in the trees, et cetera. So they're not very adaptive, right? But they still need them to carry on wars

in front of the female, because that's the only way that the female will choose a male. Like, oh, I like how he fights with those horns, right? So the thing that kills them, they need to reproduce with. And so you would think, okay, staying alive is more important than reproducing. And Darwin's saying, not really. Not really. All you have to do in the world is reproduce once and then Bob's your uncle.

Interesting. Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, you know, and Freud is saying, you know, that the whole sexual thing. Darwin said more about sex, but then people just ignored his second book and said, oh, he's being a little bit silly now. But he was already super famous. And so he was doing a study of different species and showing that like they actually prioritize producing more so than they do on living. Right. Yeah, that's right. And so he, from that deduction, he said that is becoming,

that is the most important element for species. And Darwin did a bunch of fascinating things. I mean, I'm not going to get into it because it's, it's goofy. But, I mean, I mean, he studied androgynous eels. You know, so like some animals have both, you know, they're both masculine and feminine, right? So, androgynous eels. And then he said, really, you can actually, they can actually decide what sex they're going to be. And sex is actually on a continuum, Darwin said. And people were like, what?

That is insane. So then Freud picked up on that and said, bisexuality, everybody is bisexual. And what you repress is the other side. like if you're yeah you're you're pressing your all your male traits or you're pressing your female traits but in fact it is a continuum i mean men look at men have breasts i mean we all came from you know one thing and then bifurcated so darwin so freud is saying and now bisexuality is like the latest thing in the world right so i became really interested in the culture why Freud was able to do that why darwin wasn't and also i i became really interested in all of the examples that

Darwin had from the wild. We have covered a lot of ground today. I encourage every single person who's listening to go read Good Morning Monster. I love reading and I can tell you that this is one of my favorite books I've ever read. I, so much so that I Googled to see if you were still in practice after reading it. I told Michael a long time ago, I was like, I'm telling you, this book is so incredible. Glennon Doyle recommended it to me. She's been great.

She's amazing. And I'm just so excited that you partnered with Dear Media to make a, do we call it a series? No, you call it. It's a podcast series. It's a podcast series. It's a podcast series. We're focusing on, you know, what Kathy describes as maybe the hardest chapter. We like a challenge over here.

Yes. In the book to get through. Somebody who's rich and bitchy is hard to relate to. That was her defense and she can't help that she was rich. I love the title so much. It's not the only reason, obviously, but I felt starting, like, this is the end, but starting with Good Morning Monster.

I also thought, personally, you have such an amazing community of readers that are familiar with your work, and this is something different for them to dive into, and that would be the first, like, oh, I recognize Good Morning Monster, let's go into this. And in success, the hope is that we tell some more stories like this, but yeah, that's why we did it.

And I think it's going to be different than what they get from the book and the audio book. Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. No, and it's updated, too. I mean, it's, you know, I mean, these are, this is describing what happened a number of years ago and you're updating it and saying, okay, let's put Jess in who is going to ask Kathy all these really important questions. And she's going to have to deal with that. And instead of them being my thoughts that you've confronted Kathy and it think that's really fantastic. And we wanted it to be also something that, because you're listening, that you can visualize, and you can visualize the characters and kind of how, and that's kind of, you know, obviously the challenge in audio is to make sure that there is that, like when someone's listening, that they, you know, everyone's going to perceive it in the way they do in their mind, but that they can actually have the visual audio element. Well, and they did that perfectly because I said, how is anyone going to do Charlotte?

I mean, she's the mother who is a psychopath and narcissistic. And she has a Boston accent because that's where she's, so they actually got someone who, Because the thing is you have to realize how good she is. She's very good at psychopathy and narcissism. She manages, you know, the thing when she doesn't want to eat her food and she puts it into the napkin and gives it to the daughter. And then the daughter gets caught. And she says, oh, how did, you know, I don't know why you did that. So she's, but she's very, very good at it.

And I thought it's important that she doesn't just look like some screaming witch because she had a lot of power. And you have power by being good at your pathology. And they did an excellent job with that. Well, thank you. Yeah, so everyone's got to check out the book. Obviously, Good Morning Monster. Check out the series coming out. Kathy, I feel like we could have talked to you all day long.

We're welcome back anytime. We could just go on and on and on and on. I am so excited to be helping to produce this. I'm so excited to be in it. I made a little cameo. Oh. Yes. And I'm just such a fan of everything you do.

And I'm excited. You said you were writing another book. I will be your number one fan. So, Kathy, thank you for coming on. Come back anytime. Thank you. I'd love to come back. Can we follow you or where do we buy the book?

Tell us all the things about you. Instagram? Amazon? Yeah, you can get the book at Amazon. You can get the book anywhere, I think. Okay. You know, it's a major. It's done well.

Yeah. I mean, it's done well. It was number three on Amazon medical. It's interesting. They didn't put it under self-help. They put it under medical books. That is interesting. Where can everyone find you on Instagram? Do you have an Instagram?

I do, but I'm redoing it. So I'm reorganizing the whole thing. Maybe a website better? Yeah, websites better, yeah. Because I'm redoing my Facebook and I'm redoing my Instagram. I'm going to have a new image. I love it. Kathy, thanks for coming on the show. Wait, don't go. Make sure you go listen to the scripted podcast adaptation of Good Morning Monster. Just search it in the podcast app. I'm an executive producer. My voice also appears throughout the series.

but it's just such a good story of trauma and overcoming trauma. I think you're going to love it. And a huge thanks to the Dear Media team for making this project come to life.