The Bossticks - How To Master Your Money, Stop Living Paycheck To Paycheck, Shift Your Money Mindset, & Build Financial Freedom Ft. Jesse Mecham

Episode Date: June 6, 2025

#852: Join us as we sit down with Jesse Mecham – personal finance expert, speaker, business leader, & the Founder of YNAB, a powerful money management tool. Early in his career, while juggling rent, groceries, & college tuition, Jesse created a method to track his finances as a newlywed, building a simple spreadsheet to give every dollar a job. What started as a budgeting tool quickly evolved into a framework for creating a life of intention & purpose, becoming a getaway to the life they truly wanted. In this episode, Jesse breaks down money management as an act of self-care, explores how our perception of money shapes parenting styles – including how to teach children about finances, emphasizes the importance of assigning every dollar a job, & shares insightful tips for making intentional financial choices. To Watch the Show click HERE For Detailed Show Notes visit TSCPODCAST.COM To connect with YNAB click HERE To connect with Lauryn Bosstick click HERE To connect with Michael Bosstick click HERE Read More on The Skinny Confidential HERE Head to our ShopMy page HERE and LTK page HERE to find all of the products mentioned in each episode. Get your burning questions featured on the show! Leave the Him & Her Show a voicemail at [phone]. This episode is sponsored by YNAB Visit ynab.com/skinny to claim an exclusive three-month free trial, with no credit card required. Produced by Dear Media  

The following podcast is a dear media production. She's a lifestyle blogger extraordinaire. Fantastic. And he's a serial entrepreneur. A very smart cookie. And now Lauren Everts and Michael Bostic are bringing you along for the ride. Get ready for some major realness. Welcome to the skinny confidential, him and her.

Hello everybody. Welcome back to the skinny confidential, him and her show. Today we're sitting down with someone who was completely redefined budgeting and made it actually cool. Jesse Meekam, who is the founder of Wynab, a company we've been talking about on this podcast for a while now. They are on a mission to build a better blueprint for spending and saving. And today we're breaking down why money is meant to be spent, how to ditch guilt when you splurge, and what spendfulness actually means. Whether you're thriving financially or living paycheck to paycheck, this episode is about how to feel good about where your money goes. I think this topic is so important.

So many of us run around stressed out about money and personal finance, mostly because we don't understand. We get taught how to make it, how to work these jobs, but we don't understand what to do after we've made it, how to save it, how to invest it, how to make it work for you. If you can figure that out, and I'm speaking from experience, a lot of the stress that we carry in our day-to-day lives will just go away. It would be completely diminished. And if the stress goes away, you can live happier, healthier, longer, more fulfilling lives. So whether you like personal finance or not, I think this episode is incredible for anyone because whether you like it or not, money touches our lives. It is the currency of how we interact in the world, and it's important to learn how to use it, how to save it, how to keep it, how to invest it. So this episode is really for anyone that wants to understand personal finance a little bit better in a digestible way.

And Jesse does an incredible job breaking it down in layman's terms. With that, Jesse, welcome to the skinny confidential, him and her show. This is the skinny confidential, him and her. I have something to say. This is the perfect person to ask this. with each pregnancy, I notice that my husband gets a little less attentive. By the time you got to seven kids, like you're at number seven, do you feel that your attentiveness has gone down? This is a trap, my friend.

There is no good answer here. I felt like everything was more streamlined. No, see, this is the problem with men. This is my problem with men. You guys feel like it's more streamlined because you've seen us do it. So you're like, they got this. It's like if you see Tom Brady play the football game. You're like, he better, he's got it.

He'll be fine. And it's still really hard on the wife. You guys just feel like we're capable because we've already done it before. You are capable. But yeah, I'm not going to let you say that what I said meant it's not hard. Okay. It's totally hard. Okay.

At the end of the day, every one of them is different. Every pregnancy was different per my wife. She's reporting this to me. Number one, her back went out crazy on her. And I was like, whoa, we could never, like she carried him super low. and like she looked like she was always carrying groceries and she was empty handed. And you're just like, that's, like we're like, we're going to have one, you know? That's what I thought.

And then the next baby was a totally different story. And then number six, Faye was like a trick because she was the easiest pregnancy. We did a crossfit phase for a while and Julie was just fit as could be, just cranking. And I was like, oh, yeah, pregnancy is nothing. And she even was like, oh my gosh, this is amazing. And then seven, totally different story. So they're all totally different. Can you imagine?

You know what I took away from this? Seven years of complaints? You know what I took away from this? Now, I was thinking, I was feeling bad for this morning because it was really kind of surrounding around. I was like, yeah, I guess it is hard. But then you tell me your wife did seven. I'm like, come on, Lord, suck it up.

See? This is what I'm saying. One is hard. And the kids are hard. Like, it's like people. You know, you got to raise. He's acting like I'm carrying a potato in my hand. And I'm like, the first one, he's like,

everybody watch out she's coming through like you were you were like a bodyguard you were like what do you need rubbing my feet but the second it was a little less the third one it is literally like I'm like there are two kids that Michael needs to take care of that's what he said well that's the old excuse got it you guys all got together and some of that is being lost but no you know it's it's she's a little bit I mean we're gonna get into we're gonna don't worry I promise we will get into we might we might not therapy first yeah but on one hand I look over over and she's in the gym deadlifting 6,000 pounds and like crushing it. I expend my energy in the gym. And then it's gone. Yeah, but then in the other hand, she's pretending like she can't get out of the car. And I'm like, well, which one is it here? It's both. It's both.

It's both. All right. You know, who better to ask about money than someone who has seven kids because shit, man. Or who better to have to figure out money than someone who's got seven kids? I had to figure it out before we had the first. That was the hard part. Like, yeah. Anyway, it's, I don't know.

Do you ever figure it out? I don't know. You figure it out as you go. And with the kids, that's a different ballgame. It's a different ballgame. So grace to all, everyone that's trying to raise a person. One thing about my husband is that people don't, I don't think, know enough is that he is very, very interested and thoughtful and intentional about finances. Oh, excellent.

And so I think that this conversation will be really cool for me to observe. And I'll definitely put my sense. I'm going to ask you direct questions. Oh, yikes. I was telling Jesse before we started that I'm personally, we're both excited, but I'm very excited because I, these conversations are somewhat rare on this podcast. We've done close to 900 of them. And I think there's maybe five to seven that are specifically around personal finance. But the topic always does well. I always get so much feedback about, you know, people asking for more, wondering what we do, how we do it, getting more experts on like yourself to explain more on it. And what I was saying is, you know, whether people like personal finance or not, like it touches your life. Money is part of the world. It's part of the way we transact with people. It's part of the way we live, how we live, all the things.

So super excited to talk to you. Brief introduction on yourself. How did you get into the world of personal finance, money, the app you've built, YNAB, everything. So with the seven kids, you have to start early. I mean, you should start early with seven kids. So we got married. I had just turned 22 when Julie and I got married.

And it hadn't done any school. She was wrapping up a very lucrative degree in social work. So her prospects were like, I remember her getting certified by the state of Utah, like, okay, you can do social work. And we were so thrilled because she was going to make 1150 an hour. And we were like, 1150, what are we going to do with all that money? You know, like that was, that was where our thinking was. And I was making a little bit part time.

I was doing an accounting degree. So the the getting married part and joining finances, I just looked at our prospects. And I was like, we're, we're, it's going to be tight. Like, we got to be careful with what little we have. And I was, this sounds so crazy, but I was taking this class in school where they taught you about these things called spreadsheets. And I was like, oh, that looks kind of cool. You know, this is way before phones, like email was kind of new. You know, people are like, this is fun.

And I was like, you could just add up all your stuff in the spreadsheet. So I literally, before we were even married, Julie was working down at the library at the time. And I sat down at the computer in the library because we didn't own a computer. And I built this. And because we were on that just best part of like newlywed, that whole vibe, I was just like, hey, I'm going to set up this budget for us at the time, a word I now totally avoid. And she was just like, oh, that sounds great. Because of course it sounded great. Like we had no baggage. We had no preconceived notions on money and marriage. And so we started with it. And then after we were married about five, six months in, Julie was like, I think I want to have a baby. And I'm like, why? You know, but no, I'm just kidding. I didn't say that. But, It was more like, okay, that'll be a big deal. She was, she was, you know, making all of the money at 11 bucks an hour. And she really wanted to not work once the baby came.

And so we were kind of stuck like, okay, your income's going to go away. I still have to finish school, two years left. We didn't want to borrow money. And I just thought, well, maybe this little rinky dink spreadsheet that I've built, maybe people would buy it for like 10, 20 bucks, just download it. That was, like, I had no entrepreneurial plans. Like someone like yourself, you're like, I do this business, this business, this business. I'm just kind of like, I had no.

I was like, I'll be an accountant. The college said that job placement was 99.5%. It's like, that's my ticket, you know. When people are like, oh, it's like they romanticize this entrepreneurial thing, I was like, we needed 350 bucks a month to cover our gap. And that was what I was hoping the spreadsheet would do. Eight months later, it was selling a little better. I kind of developed a method around it, which we still have.

and I met this guy from Austin actually, who now lives in Tulsa, but he wrote me like, we met online before that, you know, now sounds totally normal. He was like, I could build something better than the spreadsheet. And it was making enough where I could pay him. I did have to tell Julie like, hey, this house down payment. You guys remember back in the day like 05, 06? Like it was like, if you don't buy a house now, you'll never get a house.

And so we had been squirling away like our money that Wynab was making. We're like, we're going to buy a house. And then I met this guy online who was like, I could build software. for you instead. And I remember going to Julie. We had, we had Porter at the time. We were probably, yeah, we were actually, she was pregnant with number two at this point. The business had been going about 18 months. And I go to her and I'm like, I met this guy Taylor. I've never met him in person. We've been emailing though. And I want to like raid our house down payment savings. A wife always loves to hear that you been talking to a strange guy on the internet. Absolutely.

He sounds legit, honey, you know. So he's, yeah, he's my business partner today. Got totally lucky. You do now realize that what you did was very entrepreneurial, though, because most people in your situation, and there's nothing wrong with this, they don't see that avenue. They just say, like, I got to go and get a job. And what you did was very entrepreneurial, obviously. You know, it's funny how. I mean, full disclosure, I got my CPA license here in the great state of Texas. I worked there for a year. And then my side gig was making twice what I was being paid as a staffer. And even then I was still like, I don't know, man, it's a risk. to work for yourself, which it's a little bit of a, that's a little bit of a lie. But yeah, so I had to like kind of tiptoe into it. Yeah, it's, it's a lie because what people fail to then follow that up with is, it's risky to work for yourself, but if it doesn't work, you can always go back to working for someone else. Exactly.

And you're the last one to be fired in a bad situation. That is true. Okay. So now that, let's get into money. What do you think the most common mistake people make that they don't even realize they're making when it comes to money? Oh, gosh. It's like 40.

No, there's a couple of big ones. One is they relegate money to like some kind of separate thing than like core to their existence. And I mean that in like the healthiest way. They think of it like a chore or a to do or just like, yeah, a task, something that just needs to be taken care of. They separate themselves from money. And so there's this weird, no, no, no, none of that. So there's this weird like incongruity between how much time we spend earning money, trying to earn money, entrepreneurial ventures, spending time away from the kiddos, all to earn

this thing. And then we relegate it to like this small part of what we care about once we have it. So it's like huge caring on the earning side and then like, oh, I'm not good with money on the spending side. That drives me absolutely crazy. So they're not using it as a tool? Oh, I just to even say it's a tool, I think it's too, I don't like it. Because you like hold a tool. It's like you set it down. Like, I'm done with the hammer. I'm done with the thing. So how do you look at it?

It's part of you. It's like you. It's all of your effort, energy, smarts, network, calories, time spent climbing out of the car when it's hard. It's hard. And it's all of that rolled up into that moment where like you get, you land a client, you sell a product, whatever it may be. Money lands in the account. You guys have the business account. You pay yourselves.

It lands in that account. That's like all of your collective everything. ever rolled up into like here is here's a little bit of you and that's that's why that's the way I try and frame it because then I can tell people when you I don't like to say manage your money but we'll use it when you manage your money it's like it's like a self-care thing that's so weird that you say that because Michael I've watched his relationship with money over the last whole time we've been together and that's exactly what you did with money. You were in a spot with it. You got control of it and it was almost like self-care for you.

Well, I'll just tell. And it was liberate. Yeah, like my story real quickly. I've always fortunately been good, whether it's entrepreneurial or whatever angle, since I was a kid. I figured out how to generate an income. And I made money when I was young. But I had no understanding about what to do with it, how to keep it, how to spend it, how to save it. So then I would end up, I would be like I had this huge output to generate the thing. And then where the hell did it all go? And then I'd be stressed because my lifestyle would creep up. Absolutely. And then all of a sudden I'm like, wait, I'm good, but I'm not that good. And where did all, where is it all? And around like 2014, 15, I started, I was like, you know what? Nobody's ever taught me about this. And so I started reading every single book you could

find. You got really literate. And listen, I'm by no means an expert. And I just got to caveat that. But I don't think you need to be an expert. But I made it part of my life. And in a way, it completely changed my life because I don't stress about it. It changed my life because I don't have to hear the stress. Yeah. Oh, it's the stress is huge. And there's the stress of one not making enough, but really I think, and I've read some of your work, it's not even necessarily about not making enough. It's about not knowing how to spend it, how to keep it, how to save it once you've got it, right? Like, there's always going to be more money to make. But really, it's like, what do you, you could just keep upping, upping, upping, uping. You don't know what to do with it at some point. Yeah, you cannot

eliminate the stress by earning more. We have too many examples of people that make. literally a million dollars a year and they are stressed completely and then you have someone making 65 it would be an adjustment for me to work down to 65 again but they're they're just fine there's no it's it's very much i won't say mindset because that makes it sound like there's not any work there but there there's tools you can use and i guess ways of thinking about it that really do eliminate that that stress what are the other things you said there's a bunch of things the other big one The heavy hitter is we completely stop imagining what money could do for us. Like we just stopped dreaming about it.

We, we, I don't mean dreaming getting it. I mean dreaming like, what do you want your life to look like? And then how does money help you get there? And it's weird because we, you know, we work with couples and they'll, they'll, we get them to finally talk about money. And the way you do that is by having them not talk about it and just have them talk about what they want out of life. And sometimes they'll come back to us and say like, man, we hadn't even had that conversation.

like, what do you think about kids in school? What do you, you know, what do you think about vacations? Like, what's a dream vacation? What's out of our reach? What would be amazing? And they'll start to kind of talk about it. And then we're just like, well, start on it. Like, you want to do some amazing European thing.

Start, like, set some money aside for it. Make it happen. And they start to realize, like, oh, we can imagine. We can have money, a little bit of us, go out into the world and make our life. even better. Somewhere along the way, we lose it. Kids do it amazingly well. What have you seen the difference between men and women when it comes to money? More similarities than differences. It's the classic bell curve situation. You're going to have tons of overlap and then you'll have more men that are probably more extreme on either end. Women tend to just be less risk averse in general

and that does tend to show up in how they do money also. Women will appear to, a man, we'll talk about husband and wife, and the woman's like gets very anxious about an emergency fund being depleted for something. And the husband's like, I, not even computing, like, how are you even worried? But there's this bit of risk aversion that's at play that she doesn't even consciously acknowledge that's there. And so you see that, again, if you're talking about a bell curve, you know, you see it there. Not always. One tends to be more inclined to kind of want to do the actual computing, calculating, tinkering. That's me. We did an experiment a couple years ago where Julie took over the software and she ran it. We lasted until August of that year. And then

there's kind of a mutual like, all right, we've had enough of that experiment. Let's go the other way. She's fully in on deciding what the money does, planning goals. You can't, you can't do that separately. But when it comes to like, sitting down in front of the software and being like, okay, where do I want this to go? And how she couldn't be further, you know, less interested in that. Have you found in your work that there's maybe even a segment of people and when it comes to the topic of money that they almost, maybe they're not doing well with money, but they have this attitude of like, you know, money is evil or I'm not somebody that focuses on money

or money is not important to me. Don't you think, though, if you say money is evil, like money, to me, that's not, that's scarcity mindset. It doesn't flow to you. But the reason I ask about it is I, in my personal life, sometimes when, people come to me to speak about this topic, the ones that seem to struggle the most, they also have an attitude that's similar

to the one I described. And I look at it as a way of just like, you know, like when you're not holding yourself to full account, or maybe you're not eating right or you're not sleeping, whatever. And it's like, well, if I'm just going to like disrespect that thing

so that I don't have to face the thing that I'm not doing well. Yeah, like people that eat super healthy, they're, they're, like, obsessed. So people that manage, you know, seem to be on top of their money. They're just like, they're obsessed about. Yeah, you have all these names,

like these labels for money that are rough. Like if you, if you save money, you're a hoarder. If you don't spend money, you're a miser. You know, it's like,

well, can we win in this place? Like, is there any way to win? At the end of the day, that's where we try and come out with people. It's like, if you,

if you tell me you think money is evil or, you know, dirty, then tell me why you spend so much time trying to get it. And they might say, well, I wish I couldn't. Well,

okay, but how far does that get us wishing? So you spend an inordinate amount of time trying to get that money. All we want to do is just take a little bit of that effort and intention, all that, I mean, you put into getting an education and working and networking and stressing and planning. And like, let's just take a little bit of that intention and be like, how do you want to spend your money? You know, that's it. When I was little, not when I was little, but when I was bartending, I didn't have a lot of money. I had like, I would, show up and work every day, but I remember imagining money grew on trees. Like I would, whenever I would think about money, I would put that, there was like money trees outside my house. And I, I know people

think that that's woo-woo, but I think that when you imagine money as an abundance, it does come, there's amongst other things, but it does come to you. You have to imagine it flowing to you. Is that weird? I think that's just faith. That's just, that's positive thinking. That's just, that's just setting your brain to work on something. I totally buy into that. Not weird at all. Where I push back when people, they don't like the word scarcity and money being close together. I love, I love scarcity. We try and teach people. When we teach them our one principle, which is to give every dollar a job, we're actually, you know, let's say you have eight grand in your checking account. I would walk you to through the exercise of like, what should this $8,000 do before you're paid again? And you both would just like start rattling stuff off. It wouldn't take terribly long, a few minutes. And then we would get to zero. And I'd be like, Okay, that's now it's scarce. Like the money is kind of pre-spent essentially. And we could have set some of that $8,000 to like a vacation.

We could set some of it to Christmas, you know, down the road. We can set some of it up for like sushi tomorrow. But all of it's kind of future allocated. And what I want to see between you two is you get this situation where the money runs out. And then when a new opportunity comes or a new decision needs to be made, you can't just say, oh, we'll just earn it more, or we'll land something or we'll sell more. You have to feel the tradeoff between if we do this, we can't do that. And what everything, and I don't like to say everything like there's some big system geared

against us, but the system is geared against us to have us kind of walk right past running out of money and just be like, I'll either solve it with the next paycheck, I'll solve it with the swipe of a little bit of plastic, this is an abnormal month, this won't happen again. and we just kind of talk ourselves into it. And no one ever feels that tradeoff between, if I do this, I cannot do this. And if you do feel that, that scarcity of having finite money and different options, what happens is, like, from that scarcity, like out pops your clarity. It's like, oh, I care about this thing more than that thing.

And the clarity is what we're totally after. What are the traits that you see amongst people who not only make a lot of money, but keep a lot of money. I mean, keeping a lot of it, sometimes just habitually, they're afraid to spend it, which is not healthy. Like, it's healthy. It's not ideal. Like, if you're operating out of fear, it's not ill.

So some people have a lot of money just because they, they're truly just afraid to spend it. Okay. What about positive traits? Positive traits. What I want to see is someone that recognizes that money is meant to be spent, full stop. And it doesn't mean it's all spent.

Settle in Jesse. Yeah. So let's see. get started. It's not all meant to be spent today right now. But like come, I mentioned Christmas, come Christmas, like, we want to spend that money, enjoy it in the moment, on the 25th, celebrate, and like just be in the moment, like living it up. That's the thing. The last thing you want is to be sitting there and be trying to watch your, you know, little kids have a ball. And you love that you've created this for them. But then in the back of your mind, you have this pernicious little second-guessing

of like, oh, geez, January credit card statement's going to be crazy or why do I do this every year? And you're just having this whole guilt and shame fest juxtapose against what's supposed to be this, you know, merry time. That's what I want to avoid. So it is meant to be spent, but it must be spent well. And well only means what does Lauren really care about, Anne Michael, but it's 80 to 20. What does she really care about and making sure that those two line up? What do you really care about when it comes to money? Oh, woodworking. Oh. Yeah. love it, can't get enough of it. Like I love spending money. Like with a saw? Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. No, we're really lost. We're into it. Yeah. Absolutely. Any tool, I will buy a tool and then come up

with projects to learn how to use that tool. Okay. So you like to get, you like to get your hands dirty. Yeah. It's totally not computer. It's not digital. It's slow. So yeah. Traveling with the kids. We're going to go to Europe in a little while. It's been a little while in the making, planning it all. It's logistically kind of hard. Do you go with a nanny or do you go alone? Well, we bring the five kids. So I shouldn't call it. It's not a vacation. It's a trip. It's a very different thing. A trip is very different than a vacation. Yeah, Julie and I go on vacations. But yeah, we, they're getting old enough. Like, they can swing it. Like, they're all wearing backpacks. It'll be awesome. Okay. But we splurge on travel. Like, we go all out. Like,

Julie doesn't want anything else, but she's like, I want to travel and she wants to eat healthy food. You know, that's like, you get those two things. She's. But travel is a perfect example. We splurge too. And my whole thing is I would rather not go than struggle to get through a trip. Oh, absolutely. If I'm going to go and take the time and see the sites and spend the money and lug the kids around, like it's going to be expensive because

if not, you come back and like, oh my God, I'm exhausted. That was miserable. I wasn't comfortable. It's like, you can do that. Be that home. My ex-boyfriend, his dad would take like him on trips or take us on trips and every single spec of the trip was spent worrying about

what where the cheapest restaurant was where we could get the best deal where where we should and shouldn't splurge like the whole trip the undertone was like all about money yeah and there must have been something that happened to him and his childhood where he was like that but it was miserable by the time I got back I couldn't wait to be off the trip yeah it's that that we call that second guessing and it's the worst thing that happens to you with money it doesn't just happen on trips it happens like literally someone going to Starbucks and they buy a coffee for six bucks. And just this little bit of just like, I think this is okay. I was told I shouldn't do that.

I don't know. I mean, just little bits here and there. Like when you never can know, should I spend this, can I afford this? It's awful because you spend so much time earning the money. And then you don't even get to enjoy doing what it's supposed to be doing, which is spending it. People don't, they also don't talk about diminishing returns on money. So I'll give you a perfect example. right now we have the youth and the energy to go and enjoy certain kinds of experiences with the money.

But like, let's say it's traveling and like, you know, running around Europe and walking all the, you know, a lot of people wait till they're much older, maybe 60, 70 and they retire to. And then it's like you're tired and you're exhausted and you can't move as well and you can't do the thing. And, you know, now all of a sudden you've saved the money and you can splurge a little bit, but your body is not able to do the things it was able to do younger. Or like in my case, I have absolutely no interest in going out to the nightclubs or the bars and doing all that anymore. But in my 20s, it was a blast. So I spent the money. Now I have no interest in spending that money. So there's this, there's moments in times where dollars in don't always equal experiences out.

Yeah, absolutely. And it's just everyone needs to be aware. Like the whole exercise is to become more and more aware of what you really value. I had a good buddy who makes great money as a realtor. And he was lamenting that, like, they always go to the movie theater. And he was on this kick where he was really tightening. Like he wanted to accelerate his retirement. He felt like he was late to the game.

So he's like, I want to spend less money. I want to spend less money. And that was truly what he was valuing at the moment. But he was lamenting like, oh, we used to go to the movie theater and we used to do all this. And they would just kind of go all in. And it wasn't a big expense. It wasn't even going to move the needle. But his mind, he really wanted to feel like he was just tightening everything.

And so I did the exercise where I was like, Terry, walk me. through like, what is it about the movie theater that's like so magical for you and the kids? And he elaborated, you know, like, well, we're all together as a family. We do the pop. Can we do this? And I was like, I'm not much, like, I'm not really a frugal guy, but it feels like you could recreate this for a tenth of the price at home. And he's like, oh, I'll give it a shot. And that's, like playing a small game and making it even smaller. But what he was doing was trying to figure out where was the return? Like, what was the actual thing he was going for? And so often, like eating out, I hate to, like, ruin it for everybody, but we have people that pay off tens of thousands of dollars in debt that didn't feel like they could get ahead at all.

And it always, always ends up being that they say they ate out less to, like, that's the secret to life is just eat out less and you'll save money. And I wish I could tell people it's like some secret sauce that we just have, but it really isn't. People just recognize like, holy smokes, I eat out so much. And then they stop. And all they're doing is realizing, oh, this return is diminished for me. Well, what if someone comes to you and they say, Jesse, eating out to me is so important. And they double down. I love the atmosphere and the experience.

What will you then tell them to give up instead? Whatever they want. So give an example, like what's something kind of like eating out that you could give up if you really love eating out? Clothing purchases, unnecessary, like that. Taylor gets records. Our producer is a real record. So one of our favorite testimonials of all time that we ever received was a vinyl collector. And they talk about how they will not stop collecting vinyl.

Was it Taylor? Give him this episode to add it. It might have been. It might have been. Actually, we've got to figure that out. Maybe it was. But I loved how convicted the person was or convincing they were. Like, I'm not going to stop collecting records.

The end. So money needs to do this thing for me. And that to me, that's ultimate clarity. That person's like, this is why money exists for me, for this purpose. I loved it. For other people, it's going to be completely different. I struggle at Larm when people ask me like, hey, give me an example of this or that. I really struggle doing it because I don't want to do that.

I don't want to be like, hey, don't do that thing, do this. Don't spend here, spend here. I want people just to feel the scarcity, give every dollar a job, start to feel those tradeoffs, and then be like, oh, look, I have. I actually do want this more than the other thing. It's really, it's like self-discovery. If someone's listening and they have no idea where to start when it comes to saving, what do you recommend?

What are the first couple easy, tangible, digestible steps? I mean, we have a method. It's give every dollar a job and you walk through five questions. It's like doing a stanga yoga where it's the same routine every time. You just work through those questions over and over again. Like what's an example of a question? And the first question is you take how much money you have and you say, what should this money do before you're paid again? So you're just having them think ahead.

Our second question is, are there any expenses large or small that I should prepare for? Are there any larger or less frequent expenses? That might start, that will get the person to start thinking like, oh, in a couple months, property taxes are due or a quarterly tax bill is due or the, you know, cars making a weird noise, that kind of a thing. The third question, and this is kind of unique to our methodology, but we have them ask, is there any amount that I can fund for next month? Meaning like, just start to break out of that paycheck to paycheck cycle. You guys probably haven't been there for years and years. 80% of people are there.

Meaning like you could say, okay, night, can I break out $50 this month? Because I know something's happening next one. That's like, that's the saving mechanism. Yeah, it's just like, set it aside. So it's like, okay, I've got my rent, save my rent's $1,800 a month. but I'm going to put $200 a month toward rent for next month. Like, I'm slowly building up this month reserve. So that's our third question is you get them oriented toward breaking out of that cycle.

One thing it does also just like totally pragmatically, when you get out of that timing, paychecks to bills race that everyone does, it just frees you up. Like people spend an an ordinate amount of time being like, okay, I get paid Friday and this bill is here. And they just do all this balancing. And sometimes in business, I don't know if you've ever running this, Michael, but sometimes when things are tied in business, a lot of the CEO's job, unfortunately, ends up being cash flow timing. And it's, it's poor.

Let me tell you something. You are right in the sense that it's been a long time since I've worried about living from paycheck to paycheck. But I do remember those days. And Lauren for sure does as well. But I have traded that with the stress of managing payroll and managing that. And again, like nobody's going to cry for me. But that is a lot more stressful because now I'm not thinking only about my, like before if I screwed up, in my 20s. I'm like, oh, yeah, I can't afford the bar this weekend. If I screw up now,

Carson can't go to the bar this week. Right. Can't have that. And Carson's like, that's not going to happen. Can't have that. And what's interesting is the CEO should be thinking about strategic things, not not payroll. Like at the end of, so we want to get you there. Where am I at? The fourth question is probably my favorite. What goals, large or small, do you want to prioritize? That's where we get the Europe trip kicked off. And when someone puts 20 bucks, and this sounds trite, but when someone puts $20 toward a European trip that they thought was totally, unreachable and they've made it real, not just by manifesting it, Lauren, but like actual money, those two things come together and it's like, oh, whoa, this could be a thing. It is really fun to watch

that. And then our final question is what changes, if any, do I need to make? And I'm quoting you these. Like, these are verbatim questions. We've done these for years and years and developed them basically to get people in as to get back to your question, Lauren, about tactical steps. we need to get people thinking about money proactively instead of just reacting. And so what I try and have people do is imagine you're like we're sitting here. Imagine that it's three Lawrence though. And she's just having a conversation with herself. And it's just like, well, I want to go do this this Friday.

And it's like, okay, cool, cool. And then there's future Lauren that's like the babies do. Remember that? And it's like, oh, yeah, that's right. What will we need there? And then future Lauren's like, I'll need this and this and this. And so they start like they're coming together and recognizing. recognizing like you aren't just thinking about the here and now, you've got to be thinking about

the future. And all the marketing and all the afterpay in Clarnah and break up your Chipotle into five easy payments, all that is meant to like just have you think about the now, now, now. And our methodology is meant to completely flip it and have you looking forward and planning. So pragmatically, I would tell them work the method and just watch, watch the magic happen. I would also push a little bit when people say like, what are some tips for savings? savings is just future spending. And so we really start to try and tell, like, there's a lot of guilt around the word savings. And so we really try and get people to recognize that when you're saving money, you're just

spending it later. Because it's weird when they'll save their money and then they have to spend it because a cat spilled water on their laptop. And they're like, oh, my gosh, I can't save. People feel guilty about touching their savings. Yeah, it's there for that. Like, that's the whole purpose. What's the biggest transformation that you've seen someone make when it comes to money?

There's a cool one. This guy quit smoking. And we like we don't, you know, our headline on the website isn't like quit smoking today, you know, join now. But he has this, he has this great testimony where he's just like, I wanted to quit. You know, he wanted to quit for a long time. He couldn't pull it off. And so he did this funny thing. And why not have all the categories in our software, it's all just listed there.

so you can kind of see where all the money's allocated. And he purposely didn't allocate any money to cigarettes. He was like, I'm going to leave that empty. Kind of this ideal version of himself. And then every time he bought cigarettes, he would have to move money from some other category and be like, all right, this is for cigarettes. So he started to see like where he was taking money from

in order to feed the habit. And, you know, nicotine's addictive, but there was something super powerful for him in that psychology where he's just like, this is not worth it. And he totally kicked the habit. That's been a fun one for me. Tons in the marriage space where people are like, we were not, like we were on the rocks. And money is the most vicious of things in that regard.

And they get on the same page. What I love about what you guys do, and again, I'm not the expert, but what I found useful in my own life is where I would stress about money in the past or when I would get in trouble with money is I was scared to look at it. You don't look at the credit cards. You don't look like, man, last night was a heavy night. I don't want to see what that happened there. You don't look at the bank account and you're waiting.

And then, you know, it's almost like this thing where if you face it, you think you're going to stress it up even more. But what I found is when I started actually looking at what was happening and where it was happening, it gave me the sense of relief. I'm like, okay, now I at least know what's happening. And I could start making the decisions. And I think so many people put off that moment of truth. And so what you guys are doing is like in a weird way, you're walking them through that

truth, but in practical steps and questions that they can ask themselves to come to realization so they could figure out how to change their lifestyle. I mean, that first question is, we call it the reality question. It's like, all right, this is reality. This is how much money you have and what does it need to do? And they're like, I got to fill up the tank and groceries. And you're like, okay, 300 bucks. That's all we've got.

The average checking account balance, this is, this stat's probably five years old at this point. When we checked, average checking account balance was like $300. Now, it doesn't mean that people make very, very little. But it's just that they make their paycheck and then it just drops like a rock. because of all the bills that are sitting there waiting. And then they just ride on this stress train until the next paycheck comes along.

And we can get people after about nine, is it nine, six or nine months. We can get them to where their balance sits around $6,600. Wow, it's a big jump. It is a big jump, but it's not because they're living, like, okay, we're going to cut back here, here, here. They just become aware, like you said,

confronting reality, see the truth. And they recognize like, oh, some of these things I'm spending my money on, I don't really care for. I'm going to deploy it somewhere else. What are some common mistakes that people who have a lot of money make? Like rich people. What do you see the mistakes that they're making?

They mess up their kids. Oh, that's a good. I didn't think you were going to say that. Yeah. It's just you give your, going back to how I love scarcity, you raise kids that don't feel like scarcity exists. And so that can, but it does. It's like it's here.

It's always here. And so then you send some kid out into the world. It's like, hey, guess what? Scarcity never, you know, doesn't exist. And it's like, oh, it does, unless you keep going back to mom and dad. And then after a while, you just, yeah, it gets really, really messy. It terrified. Like, I say that because I'm terrified of it also.

What do you think there is to be done? You teach them to work. Agreed. You teach them to be honest. Agreed. Yeah. Just make them suffer a little bit. Even, like, no matter how bad you want to make them, like, rescue them.

You're like, no, I'm going to watch them struggle. I'm trying to have conversations right now with my daughter. about her, she's five, but trying to have her understand that just because she has all these pairs of shoes or skirts or dresses or whatever doesn't mean everyone else has that. And she's starting to understand that a little bit. Yeah. And I think that just through conversation, even when they're so little is important. Like even saying like, you know, not everyone gets this kind of coconut water that you're

like, just giving them a little bit of context that that they're lucky, I think is important. too at a really young age. And then when there's six, you take it all away until you're not getting any more until you earn it yourself. Yeah, year six and 12, you make him go austerity. Well, me and Michael made a mistake, and I'll totally call us out on the podcast with for Christmas. Oh, yeah. Well, the first few Christmases with kids are- The first few Christmases, we didn't, we didn't know. We, like, got a bunch of Amazon toys, like, not, not anything like crazy expensive, but just a lot. Yeah. You like try to give your kids the Christmas that you think you would have wanted. This is the story of my life every year. And what I noticed is the version of my children that I got on Christmas was not the version that I was getting on the other 364 days of the year.

It was like this tyrannical. It wasn't Cindy Lou. No, I was not Cindy Lou. It was not Cindy Lou singing the fucking Coupville Carole. Like it was just like, what are what's going on? They were like tearing through presents. And I was like, wait, we're going to do, I think five or three or like a minimal amount of presents that are intentional. It's a good lens to show, though, when you give people mass abundance without the context of how they were able to get it in the first place.

It was out of control. Like, there's just no connection to like, and there's so little, like they're just reacting to the situation in the moment. And two days later, it's like all, it's all okay, you know? Like, the memory is short. Don't worry about it. Try again next year. We've tried to do like the whole, okay, we're doing this number. And with as many kids as we have, a spreadsheet's involved, obviously, to try and make sure we keep it all straight.

and we have to record where we stuck stuff or we're going to forget. And then four months later, you're like digging up through the closet and you're like, what's that box? Oh, shoot. We forgot to give this to him for Christmas. I started at Christmas, I was so, I was like, what the hell is happening? I started putting presents in the closet to donate for later. I'm like, you don't need these presents.

You're going to act like this? This is crazy. You're so right about the kids. I mean, listen, this is the world's tiniest violin, rich kids that end up messed up. nobody like that if people didn't come they don't have sympathy for that group of people because it's like what are you crying about you all this money but i feel so sorry for that group because in a way they're set up by their parents to live in an unrealistic plane of the world which is like this like you said earlier no scarcity mass abundance everything's going to be fine all the time you deserve it you earn it

and then all of a sudden you get out there and it's like nobody cares and you don't really know how to earn it you don't really know how to contextualize it and you don't have to contextualize it and you don't have the gratitude for having it in the first place. Then you run back to mommy and daddy and your self-worth goes down to the floor. And it's, yes, the kids have to take some account, but the parents of those kids are the ones that are setting them up for this terrible time later in life, not by intention, but it's just the honest truth of it. Yeah, I mean, the parents' best of intentions, they just, they don't want them to have it as hard as they had it a lot of the time. I mean, most people with money are still self-made, you know, and so they've been through it and

they're like, oh, man, I don't want my kids to have to do that. And that very thing, thing is likely what kind of shaped them and gave them some of the skills and experiences they needed. It's tricky. I'm not an expert here. The best advice I got was from Ron Lieber, who wrote a great book, like, how to not raise spoiled rotten kids or something like that. You'll find it. And the tip that I got, I used to have it be like, I was like, Ron, what do I do? And with chores and paying them. And he's just like, separate chores from allowance. Like, just they do chores because they're like learning how to be a good human, good roommate, good family member. You just do chores because you live here. He's like allowance, you just give that, give it to him just so they can

practice using money. That was like a light bulb for me because I would do all this like machinations to be like, okay, you earn this here, you're in this dad, how much do I get for this? Where now I can just be like, Max, go gather the eggs and he's just like, because he's 15, you know, and then he goes and does it. And he's like, why do I have to do this? It's like, because I said so, you know, where when he gets the money, it's just like, that's your allowance, and then he gets to decide and practice and blow it sometimes, you know, how he wants to do it. It really made my life as a parent a lot easier to separate those two things. So that's totally a Ron Lieber thing, and I just stole it.

I'm going to steal that from you too. I like that. What's the psychology behind assigning every dollar a job? What does that mean? That is where we, that's how we get to the scarcity, is that eight grand in your checking account. Every dollar is labeled like this, dollar will do this, this dollar will do this. Got it.

It's like you're putting them in, I mean, everything now is virtual. You're putting them in virtual buckets. And then that's where the tradeoffs become, they're just right in your face and you know what you're trading off. And tradeoffs are the, that's the ultimate in economic decision making is we're always trading off constantly. And so to have it front and center, you get the best information you've ever gotten. Michael, you mentioned like, don't look at your bank account because you don't want another

truth or worse, people will look at their bank account and they'll see that it's some number and then they'll just be like, okay, yeah, I think I can spend that. And like the bank account doesn't tell them at all how much they can afford. It just tells them how much is in their bank account. But when you see the bank account broken up into those different jobs, suddenly you're like, well, yeah, we can go out to you. We got 300 bucks in there. Like, we're not going to like maybe buy a bunch of wine, but we'll be able to go somewhere kind of nice. Or it's 40 bucks. And I'd be like, I can't even go to Chick-fil-A guys. Like two kids won't get something. You know? So when you say give each dollar a job, what you're really doing is you're taking, like, can you give a practice example?

Say there's $1,000 in the checking account. What job would you give, like some just basic jobs you'd give to that $1,000? Yeah, I mean, let's say, I mean, we, you know, we're filming on a Wednesday and then Fridays and two days. And the person's like, I get paid Friday. I would have them ignore the fact that they're getting paid Friday. And say, okay, you got $1,000 until Friday, until you're paid again. What should this money do? And it's pretty obvious stuff. They'll usually have a couple bills. And they're like, well, I got to pay these things. and then you're like, well, what else? And there's like, well, I got to fill up the car, okay? And then maybe they have 50 bucks left.

And they're like, I can't really think of anything. And that's where you can go to question two and say, well, what large or less frequent expenses should you prepare for? And then it just gets them thinking a little bit further ahead. So like future Lauren walks in the room is like, hey, the car tires are really one. Because I know you check the car tires probably all the time. You're like, how are the treads constantly, you know, weekly? And you're just like the treads. After she's done polishing the buzz.

Yeah, absolutely. I don't check the gas tank. It's just a routine. I run out at least 15 times a year. I am amazed how often I fill up my wife's car when it's like running on fumes. I'm amazed how many times she's actually running a gas on the side of the road. This is not a bullshit. 15 times a year.

It's incredible. I cannot waste my capacity and my energy and my brain on gas. I love where you're going with this. I'm sorry. I don't think about it. I don't want it in my ether. No, I can sit on the side of the road. But you're still thinking.

You're still present. I'm working. strategizing, emailing. Some of the, my best work is done on the side of the road running out of gas. I think you should get her a smaller tank, so it happens more often. And you can get all that strategy. Like, you get that strategy really flowing. My assistant, Katie, you can ask her, has come with a gas tank at least 15 times this year.

Bless her heart. She's amazing. I like how confident you are in that situation. I'm digging that. I'm good with it. I like it. And I've run out of gas in all different kinds of neighborhoods. It's called delusion.

That's fair. Yeah. We'll need to get a few more people in here if we're going to do a proper intervention. But all that to say, it really is something that's, it's cool to see the future thinking happen when they're assigning that money, even with just a little bit. And so, you know, you're like, oh, we want to, or, you know, Mother's Day is coming up or whatever. It's like, oh, yeah, okay, what do we want to do here? You know, be ready. It's Mother's Day. Mother's Day. I cannot wait for Mother's Day. to see what you have planned. It is going to be amazing. It's a Mother's Day. I hope that you've plans and all the things in like three weeks or now. I want a post-it note when I wake up, everything.

I have a friend that is so goddamn chaotic around money. They make it and spend it and it's always chaos. It's always up and down. It's always stressed. They're always needing money or asking. Like, it's just stressful. Where do you start with someone? like that that almost like likes the chaos around it. Yeah. They might be addicted to it. Yeah,

they might be a little bit. Let's pretend it's a let's say it's a 25 year old. Oh, game on. They can change. They're not 35 yet. So they're like they're good to go. They're not set in stone. We do really well with people with ADD, ADHD. I don't know what it is exactly about the way the software and the methodology works, but it's like they're able to kind of tinker with their money, the money itself on screen. It allows them to focus where they feel like they kind of bounce around all the time. And so that person might find that if they just took some of that chaos and just made it into tinkering, that would work very well. I'll tell you why, because in my case, I don't know if I would qualify for ADD or ADHD, some of my previous teachers and professors

may feel differently, but it's because it's almost turned into like a little bit of a game for me. Like a little like almost like a video game. Yeah. Because it's something that's like a puzzle. And once you look at it like the puzzle in a weird way, it becomes fun. Is there anyone that has no hope when it comes to money? Like is there some people that you're just like, this person is who they are. They're not going to change.

It is what it is. Yeah. I mean, the older they get, the more they're not going to change. I mean, I'm not going to change in a lot of ways because I'm old. know. So there is that. I will say this. The more money they make, the more imperative it is that they spend it well. Because it goes back to respecting the resource itself, this precious resource we call money. Like we need to give it its due. You have to give it like give yourself the due. So when someone's like, oh, rich people don't need to worry about their money. It's like, no, no, they need to

worry about it more because their impact, their leverage, they could do so much more with it, amplify more of themselves in the world in the best ways if they were intentional, thoughtful, you know, value oriented around it. And I mean value oriented that their values, not not anyone else's, just their own. So in that way, I would just say, the more money they have, the more important it is that they spend it well. How do you talk to your seven children about money. What are the pillars and like the mission statement you have within your family? Yeah, we speak positively about it. I think that's smart. That's the one thing. And we also don't hide things. It's a little bit like birds and the bees. You're just like the more frank you are,

it just seems to go better and better. And so that's how we are. I mean, age appropriate, obviously, but there was a really great book I read. I think it came out of Harvard. It's called Wealth in Families. And it's going back to my fear of messing up kids. There was one great line where the author just said, try and treat your kids as peers as soon as appropriate. And appropriate was a great word there, because at five and six, not happening. But I have a 20-year-old, almost 21, and I'm excited to kind of be like, oh, he's more of a peer of mine, like, hey, what do you think about this strategy that mom and I have been thinking about? What's your take?

How would that affect your siblings? How would that affect you? I've been shocked how often he, and he's like no special snowflake or anything. He's a pretty normal, sharp kid, but he's just like, oh, yeah, that'd be pretty, that'd be interesting dad, or he gives me an interesting take. So having them be a peer as soon as appropriate was pretty liberating to me, feeling like it's not just Julie and I in a vacuum trying to guess everything. When they turn eight and the age of eight is, is totally arbitrary. It's just the age that they're baptized in our faith. So I was like, oh, well, let's just start them on this too.

That's literally the only reason. but we have them actually use the software. And I sit there and run it, and Fay is nine, so she's my most fresh on the train. And she sits there next to me, and she makes a little bit of money, and we put it at the top, and she sees this balance.

And then the fun begins, because you're like, okay, Faye, what do you want this money to do? And she's like, I don't know, well, what do you want? And it's fun to watch them kind of be like, she had a Lego kick for a bit, Legos.

You know, it's like, well, what kind of Lego? We're talking like Harry Potter or like, you know, city friends or whatever. I don't know what they're called. You just have them start to dream. And there's a little cool exercise you can do with the kids where you really try and get them to list like everything under the sun that they might possibly want. And they get really excited and totally unrealistic. And then when you have the amount in front of them, you're like, okay, well, here's how

much you have. And they see how quickly it runs out. A cool thing happens. One is they're like, oh, that's not that much money. but two, they know exactly where they want to put all of it. It's very rare that I've had, at least my kids, be like, I'm going to spread this over 10 categories. They're usually like all in that one, you know?

Like, I want to get this thing done. That's funny because that's what you said about the way your parents did Christmas is they would zone in on like one, one big gift instead of getting you a bunch of shit. And then there may be like some accessories that would go with the one big thing that were called. But no, even as you were talking, I haven't thought about this in a long time. I remember with my grandmother, back in the day, we used to have Toys R Us. Oh, yeah. Right? Everyone has that store.

And I had this like blue, I remember it now clearly, this blue plastic like cylinder with a lanyard that I could wear around my neck and I would put coins in it and she would take me. Stop. To the To the toys on eBay. Get that for my son. Yeah. That is so amazing. To the Toys R Us.

And she would say, okay, you can take the money that you've saved and that you have and buy whatever you want in here and I'll pay the taxes. And so like, but I had to like calculate. And so I remember going through like, okay, I really want that. No, can't get that one. Or I could even sometimes she'd be like, okay, well, this week, if you want that and you can't afford, we can come back next week. But then you got to save. So I'd have to make the decision and the calculation.

Like, is it a ninja turtle or something. It's good lesson. Jesse, can I tell you something about Michael? So his mom, Lisa, gave me this book the other day. That's his third grade book. It's like throughout the whole year he like writes in this book. It's all of his work. It's all of his work.

It's a compend. I love it. The work of a young genius. He's looking through it and we're reading through it and there's so many funny things in there. But there's this one line. Tell them what it says. Tell them what it says. No, they ask kids like, what do you want to be when you grow up? Of course. And I haven't seen this since I was, I didn't know. It's hysterical. It's in some park. And I wrote, I don't know what I want to be when I grow up. All I know is it has to do with money. It's kind of a weird answer. No, it's not. It's so entrepreneurial. I think it's so great. I think you saw. early on, you're like, money seems terribly useful. And then there was another question that's like, what's something that you could put into the world that would like absolutely change your life? And it's me. I created a thing called the homework machine. And I'm sitting under an umbrella running a machine that does all my homework.

Now we have AI and the homework machine is here and alive and well. Can you imagine? You were ahead of your time. Can you imagine having homework with AI? I don't envy children. But you know, I do think for me and like, again, not an expert. But my sentiment is, and you've never, never ever articulated the way you did,

which is, I do think that as much as people may not want it to be, money is part of our life in so many ways. And it's important to make it part of your life and to recognize that, I don't wanna just call it a tool, like you said, but it's, it's part of our being. It's part of our output, it's part of our effort. And so if you look at it that way and you stop looking at this thing to like demonize

or dirty or stressful, like your life will change. I mean, you know, if your economics are like, oh, money is a medium of exchange, it needs to be sound, it needs to have these five properties. And they go through all this stuff. But if you look at that medium of exchange and you're like, well, what am I giving in order to get the money? And you just kind of like simplify the equation. Well, all you're giving is, is you. And then on the other side of it, when you're spending it, what we want you to get on the spend is more of whatever lights you up, more of you. And sometimes that means just paying your electricity bill without worrying about it.

Like, that's a win. Like, people sometimes will hear me, they're like, oh, so Jesse thinks if you can buy a new woodworking machine, that's, that's you, we call it living spendfully. You know, like, that's you living spendfully. It's like, no, no, like, if I can pay my electric bill and not give it a second thought, that's a win, you know, and times that by 10 other bills. So that idea of money is just, it's just a part of you. It's like, it's self-care and self-respect.

And when people can see money for, it's, it's, It's not like we're saying, this is now your worth, nothing to do with that. But just recognizing, hey, here's what you brought to the table economically. Let's put a little bit of effort into making sure that on the spend side of that medium of exchange, that it's also a little bit of you there. I mean, this show over the years says that time has been labeled like health and wellness. And there's so many conversations around like gut health and stress and sleeping well and supplements you eat all these. And what I would say to some people is like maybe some of these money conversations are a source of your discomfort and stress and sleepless nights. And if you figure that

out, maybe you don't need all the other stuff. Like, maybe that'll just solve. And for me, I used to be so stressed about money. It used to be, it was the focus of my like every waking day, right? And then now I rarely think about it. Yeah. Because I figured, I figured it out. Yeah. Before you go, what's one rich person habit? A rich person habit that anyone can adopt today. I mean, curiosity. I mean, I don't run around in, you know, rich circles or anything, but when I do happen to run into people that are just terribly successful, they just kind of, you can't turn off their curiosity.

I've always, they seem to be terribly interesting. The good ones, you know? So I don't know if I just self-select for trying to find those people that are super interesting to talk to, but I think the curiosity bit is what is just kind of holds. Like they're still reading. They're just kind of, I call it to content in their disconnect. intent like that just like you're you're cool to keep striving but like you can be in the moment too

when someone's mastered that like they're curious but calm I mean that's that's where I hope I land Ed Milet calls it blissfully dissatisfied oh I love that it's like the same concept of what you're saying that's so crazy I'm gonna take that blissfully you know yours was good too we have some rapid fire questions okay what's one thing you refuse to spend money on eating out yeah we just phased it out. Roth IRA or 401k? Roth 401K. Bigger limit, same same tax advantage, yeah. Buy now, pay later, genius or trap? No, just absolute poison. Yeah, just garbage. What's your money mantra in three words? Give every dollar a job. I just had to say it fast. One money rule you break regularly. Oh, maybe a conventional rule. Yeah. My investment allocation

very heavy Bitcoin. I think I break most of them. We should have gone down that. We could have gone down that rabbit hole. We need three hours. Last and final question, what's the one thing you tell someone who wants to stop living paycheck to paycheck? Visit winab.com. Yeah, something like that. They can't find me on socials, but they can find us. And what are they going to get out of this? Someone who's living paycheck to paycheck. What are the things that you think this person's going to get? They will eliminate that money stress from their life. Life is stressful. If you're alive,

their stress. But to not have to carry around that extra stress of money, it's huge. Like we can, we can eliminate that money stress from their life. We help people that they make enough. I'm not saying that everyone's making tons of money, but they make enough. And they just need to become more intentional, more thoughtful, feel the tradeoff on that medium of exchange, feel the tradeoff when they spend. And they just start to make good decisions. They don't need an advisor. They don't need an expert. They just need to feel the tradeoff, fill the scarcity, and then and then be guided by that. I love having our partners and the founders on this show because I think it just gives such greater context. And we've been talking about it. I've been talking about this for a while,

but you guys can go to ynab.com slash skinny. That's yNAB.com slash skinny. I love your offer. It's three months, free trial, no credit card required. Nothing to lose. You can jump on there for three months and get your money game under control. You guys have been super generous with the offer. Thank you for doing the show. We would have fun doing it. Next time we're doing the Bitcoin one. And also you can go listen to Jesse on his podcast. What's your podcast?

Tell us about that. So we just renamed it. It's just called The Jesse Meekam show. And it's about five minutes long each week. Just a little tiny, little blurb. It's like, hey, remember, remember what you know, remember what you want to do. And I try and keep it short and tight and just give people a little dose. Jesse, thank you for enlightening us when it comes to money and a budget.

Absolutely.