The Bossticks - Jenna Lyons On How To Be Truly Happy, RHONY, Career Advice, Dating, Sex, & How To Be Yourself

Episode Date: November 27, 2023

#630: Today, we're sitting down with Jenna Lyons. You may know her from Real Housewives of New York City, but Lyons rose to fame in the early 2010s as the lead designer for J.Crew; her work at the time popularized the concept of 'high-low dressing' and earned her the title of the 'Woman Who Dresses America' due to the massive success of her campaign to reinvigorate the then-struggling brand. Today, we sit down with Jenna to discuss topics ranging from childhood and how to build resilience to her experience on RHONYC and how that's shaped the way she sets boundaries. She also gets into career development, dating advice, and what men can do in their relationships to keep the spark alive.  To connect with Jenna Lyons click HERE To connect with Lauryn Evarts Bosstick click HERE To connect with Michael Bosstick click HERE Read More on The Skinny Confidential HERE To subscribe to our YouTube Page click HERE For Detailed Show Notes visit TSCPODCAST.COM To Call the Him & Her Hotline call: 1-833-SKINNYS (754-6697) This episode is brought to you by The Skinny Confidential. Click HERE to shop the last day of our Cyber Monday sale. This episode is brought to you by Alo Moves Alo Moves has always been inspired by a single goal: to empower people to live healthier, more fulfilled lives. Alo Moves is the streaming on-demand platform with yoga, fitness, and meditation classes. Go to Alomoves.com and get 1 year of Alo Moves for only $99 with code SKINNY99 at checkout. This episode is brought to you by Quince Get affordable luxury with Quince. Go to Quince.com/skinny to get free shipping and 365-day returns on your next order. This episode is brought to you by Just Thrive These days, stress seems to hit us from every possible angle in any environment at any time, day after day. Enter Just Calm - the breakthrough new stress and mood support formula from Just Thrive. Get 20% off a bottle of Just Thrive probiotic + Just Calm supplement at justthrivehealth.com or use code SKINNY90 at checkout. This episode is brought to you by Canopy Canopy just released a new filtered shower head that greatly reduces contaminants and odor in your water, leaving you with glowing hair and skin. Visit getcanopy.co and use code SKINNY for an additional 10% off your purchase. This episode is brought to you by WeightWatchers WeightWatchers is the #1 doctor recommended weight-management program and the trusted authority in evidence-based weight-health. Visit ww.com/tsc to see if you qualify, and if you do, use code TSC25 to get one free month plus $25 off your second month. This episode is brought to you by L'Oreal Discover the new Bright Reveal Dark Spot Duo! Visit Target online and in-store to buy yours today. Produced by Dear Media

The following podcast is a dear media production. Black Friday, Cyber Monday, I got you covered, all the gifts, all the things you need on Shop Skinny Confidential.com. It's 20% off products. Go grab an ice roller, maybe some pink balls, and even some driving gloves. All the things, no code required. It begins Thursday, 1123, at 12.01 p.m. PST. And it ends, so hurry, on Cyber Monday, 1127 at 1159 p.m. PST. Everything's available on the Skinny Confidential website. Stock up. I have all my girls in office.

You can literally get all your holiday shopping done in one place. Shop skinnyconfidential.com. She's a lifestyle blogger extraordinaire. Fantastic. And he's a serial entrepreneur. A very smart cookie. And now Lauren Everts and Michael Bostic are bringing you along for the ride. Get ready for some major realness.

Welcome to the Skinny Confidential, him and her. Actors are different because they're playing a role. I'm just me, so they think that they know me because they now know my life. So whereas you might not go up to Kylie Jenner or Timothy Shalame because there's like space between you that is inherent because actors is different because there's like you're not meeting them, you're meeting the role that they played. Don't give me wrong, I'm grateful and there's nothing better than someone wanting to take their picture with me. I'm so honored. It is just interesting how, like there's just no boundaries for some people.

Hope you guys had the most amazing Thanksgiving. Welcome back to the Him and Her show. Today's a fun one with lots of twists and turns. We have Jenna Lyons. You may recognize her from her J. Crew Days. But now she is an American fashion designer, businesswoman, and television personality. I think she is the star of Bravo's Real Housewives of New York City.

She's a real breakout star, and she's also recently launched Love Scene, a false eyelash beauty brand. She's the CEO and co-creator of the company, and she's just major in New York. She talks a lot about her childhood, what inspired her to join Real Housewives. She talks about Jay Crewe, how to create a timeless wardrobe. She really, really covers all the things in this episode. This is one of those ones that I'm going to go back and listen to because I liked it so much.

And she's quirky, she's fun, she's beautiful, and she's living life on her own terms. I love it. Jenna Lyons, welcome to The Him and Her Show. This is the skinny confidential, him and her. Jenna fucking Lions is on the show. I am so excited. It's really funny because the way that I was introduced to you, and I want to see if you remember this, is you did an article, and I can't remember the publication, about what

your day was like. Okay. This is six million years ago. It was so long ago. I've done many of those. And I'm obsessed with people's, like, morning routine and nighttime routine. and you walked us through like your whole morning and your whole day and your whole night. And this is a long time ago. I want to say it's like maybe 10, 12 years ago. Okay. And I was so inspired by you because

there wasn't a lot of women that had that fluidity in their life. And it was very entrepreneurial at the time. Wow. I hope I can find the article. I don't know which one that was. What did I say? It was a big article. I'm going to try to find it. Okay. It was just interesting how you walked us through your day and like you seemed like you had flexibility in your calendar. And now to see you on housewives is full circle. So, but I want to get like the lay of the land with you because you've had a very eclectic, interesting life. Okay. That's a good way to put it. Yeah. I think the first thing we do is go back. You were, you were born with a syndrome. Genetic disorder. Explain that. So I have what's called incontinencia pigmenty and it's a genetic disorder that affects the skin, the teeth, and the hair.

And so my teeth were conicular when I was growing up, which means like cones. I have huge bald spots in back in my head. I have scars all over, just coloration in my skin. It was not that fun growing up. People, kids are mean. And particularly with your teeth, my teeth were, you know, every time you open your mouth, having conicular teeth is not so fun. It was hard to hide.

Like my skin I could cover up, my hair I could put in a ponytail, but my teeth were really hard to hide. And so I got teased mercilessly. Did you feel like you had to constantly hide all these things from other? people. Oh, yeah. I mean, I didn't totally understand the extent of it until I got into like seventh grade when like boys and being cute and like all that stuff started to come into the picture. Prior to that, I didn't really get it. I remember, you know, I'd be in a, you know, an assembly at school and I'd hear the kids behind me going, oh my God, look at her hair. Why is she bald? Or I was standing in line at

Knott's Berry Farm and I heard the girls behind me go, look at her skin. What is that? Wait, is that, that's so gross. Oh, my God. And like, those are the kinds of things that would play in my head. And so, So it, like, yeah, you start to hide. It's interesting because I feel like that wouldn't fly now. I think it would. I think it goes, it's done quietly. Yeah, people, I mean. I think kids are cruel.

Kids are cruel. And I mean, listen, bullying happens all over the place. I mean, you see people like, and it happens in other ways where people do it like, you know, group chats. And, I mean, that kind of stuff happens. People are not that accepting of things that are different than them. When you were growing up with this, did your parents give you context of what was happening or did they kind of not know what to do either? I don't think my mom, I mean, my father

wasn't really there. My mom didn't really know what to do. And I think, and it's interesting now, looking back, it's like my, you know, I've learned a lot and getting older about how to handle things with myself and my own child. And I remember my mom saying like, don't worry, you're beautiful. Don't listen to them, which basically is like ignoring someone's feelings and trying to make, and that's actually the last thing you're supposed to do. But my mom didn't know. She had no idea. No one told her. And also, my genetic disorder is so rare. Like, she didn't have anybody else to talk to. And she also, my mom had Asperger, so she didn't, her social skills were off.

She didn't, like, she just didn't care what anybody else thought. So she was like, why would you care? And, you know, it was hard. It was definitely, she didn't have any resources. Nobody talked about bullying back then. Because with Asperger, we have a friend that has Asperger. And I've learned spending time with her that it's like, there's very few gray areas. Is that a good way to.

And the thing I've learned, and I have to be really careful talking about this, because I have spoken a little bit about it and I've gotten a lot of feedback from people who, it is a spectrum situation and it is not a one-size-fits-all. What my mother experienced and what I experienced with her is a lack of ability to make connections and a lack of empathy. She did not, like, if I skin my knees,

she was like, okay, let's go wash it off. It wasn't like, oh, my, I'm crying. She was like, it was very much like situation. Like, let's take care of the problem. But there wasn't a connection to my emotions and my sadness or my fear. She couldn't identify with that. So she didn't know how to handle it.

And again, this is specifically my memory. mother. It's not a general. Everyone, it manifests differently for everyone. And so, yeah, it was, it was hard. I think she, she saw that I was suffering. She just didn't get it. She didn't know what to do. Yeah. And as a child, I imagine that's hard because you model a lot of your parents' emotional responses. So if you're not getting it. It was great for my relationships. I'm sure. Yeah. Did really well for. When, when you were little, did you know that something was a miss or did you not have any idea until you got older? I didn't know. I remember going, to like my friend's houses and I would see that like their moms were like cuddly and wanted to

hang out with them and we're having friends over and like there were dinner parties and you know guests over and we didn't have any of that in our house and it was very quiet and you know it was also my mother was a piano teacher so we weren't allowed to have television or music because she was teaching and the house was small and so like I knew that my house was different but I didn't really understand why I just thought it was because my mom was a piano teacher you know And I associated like the quiet and the lack of like boisterous energy because it was her job. And then it wasn't until I got older that I started to understand. And then I didn't know my mother had it until she was like 74.

She was at my house. And a friend of mine was going to leave who had been trying to make eye contact with her and say, okay, well, I'm leaving now. It was so nice to meet you. And my mom just put her head down. She was like, it was nice meeting you. And I'm like, mom, he wants to give you a hug and say goodbye. She's like, well, you know, I have Asperger's.

And I was like, okay. No, I didn't. And it just kind of came stumbled out. And she, you know, and again, I only talk with us now because she's passed. So it's like I never spoke about it before. But, you know, she'd taken some tests in like every box she checked. And she realized that. And I think it was helpful for her to know because I think she felt bad.

She knew something was off. She didn't know what was wrong. She had no idea she'd never been diagnosed. Was it helpful for you when she said that? Kind of a relief? It was helpful. I also think, like, I was angry at my mom. You know, I think I was really, I felt.

bad that she, like, I knew she didn't, I didn't think she liked me. She was very, not very nice to me. She was always putting me down. And I was, it was hard. And I kind of pulled away from her because I remember going home and every time I would leave home, I would feel depressed. I'm like, why do I always feel so sad when I go home? And so I had pulled away from her. And it gave me a lot of tenderness and, and like much, I was able to, I'm so happy I found out before she passed because I was able to find grace with her and not harbor so much resentment. feel like you grow up as a person when you do find grace for your parents and you have empathy. And even when you become a mother, you start to understand why some decisions were made that you couldn't

understand. And there is a relief about it. Yeah. I think that you find a lot of strength within the moments of your childhood that are hard. I mean, I certainly have. And I think that it's really helped me to become stronger, more resilient. Listen, obviously, there's, there's things that aren't good about it. Well, it's like that Tony Robinson, and I'm going to butcher this, where he's like, hey, the two brothers and one of them is very successful and one of them's not successful. It says, well, why are you so successful? I was like, my dad was an alcoholic who beat me. And they go, well, why are you a failure? My dad was an alcoholic and he beat me. It's like you kind of have two choices. And it comes to, I mean, it's hard to your point. But at the end of the day,

like, you're the one that makes the choice. Yeah, I think also some people are born with different tools and their tool test. Like, not everybody is able to pull up. Like I have so much tenderness for people who can't, you know, I think it is a gift and you are super lucky. And I think Bryn is like, it's not, it's not like everyone is able to. And I've seen that so much with friends and I have friends who's, you know, brother and sister and like one of them is doing really well. And the other one's not. And they have the same exact upbringing. And it's like, the other one just couldn't, they couldn't pull up. And it's sometimes it's hard. It's really interesting to see, you know, now being a parent. Like, I think I'm so different with my son than I think I would have been.

had I not had that experience because I'm over. I mean, I tell him I'm proud of him like literally. He's like, I know, mom, I know. You know, I don't think my mom ever told me she was proud of me. But it's like, I do it all the time. What are you guys smiling about? I just think that's cute. I think that's cute that you tell him that.

He's going to grow up and he's really going to appreciate that. I hope so. What are things that you, besides that you do differently as a parent now? Like, how have you used everything in your past to make you feel like you're being a better version? I mean, I think there are things that I remember. remember really distinctly that I just will like a lines I won't cross meaning like I will never my my mom used to do like little digs like oh well you know you're just doing that for attention or oh well you just want you know somebody to notice you like little things like that and they add it up for me

and I remember those so much more distinctly than anything else it was positive so like I don't I will never ever say to him like I've heard parents say like oh you just ruined it why did you ruin that or I just will I will never it will never come out of my mouth I don't really yell I'll sit him down and be like hey I want you to understand here's why I felt that way. Here's why I'm upset and try to explain it to him because my mom never did that with me. I had no idea what's going on half the time. It was just like radio silence. And so I am very, you know, that being said, I do think like he's probably not seeing, you know, I don't get angry and he's not as attuned to people getting angry. I mean, that's going to be interesting to see. Like,

I'm obviously not perfect. I'm figuring it out. But I have made very specific choices about never to ever, ever tell him that he's like not valuable in some way or not good at something. It's like never happens. It's interesting because even as young as three, I see my daughter looking at my reaction when something bad happens. Like for instance, like if, you know, she knocks over the coffee and it spills all over the white couch. It's like if you laugh. Right. Yeah, she's looking. She's watching my reaction. And then when it happens again, if it's something I do or he does, she'll use the verbiage that I use. It's crazy. Like I have thought, like for myself as a parent that I want to say, oh, it's okay.

It's an accident. Like, just diffuse it. It's okay. If it's an accident, I'm not going to scream or yell or berate her. And I've noticed now when he does something or I do something, like we spill something, she'll say, it's okay. It's an accident. And I'm like, oh, my God, they're like a parrot.

Yep. I mean, there's no question that stuff imprints so deeply. It's shocking. and so young. I mean, three years old. It is shocking. But it also makes you understand how people who are abused end up abusing.

It's like it's so written in their code. Yes, that's so true. And it's amazing when someone who has a really hard upbringing has managed to flip that story because it's hard. It's like it's ingrained. It's in there. It's hard to break it. Yeah.

And what is your relationship with your brother like? I mean, I adore my brother. He's like the sweetest person on the planet. He's also super hot. Is he single? I mean, he's. He's not single. Okay.

We might pimpe him out. Everyone is obsessed with him. And it's so cute. It's one of those things where because we grew up in such a non-communicative household, my brother and I don't really talk. Like, I would do anything for him. I would jump in front of a bus for him.

I know he would do the same for me. Like we are. We had been there for each other in any moment of any time, whatever was going on. But we just don't like, I mean, he doesn't even answer my text. Yeah, but I think that's, that's your way, though, of how you guys grew up. It's where you guys are. comfortable. That makes sense to me that sometimes you guys don't answer each other's text. It makes

sense. Oh, I mean, ever. It's, yeah, it's comfortable. I mean. I have just, I have to, like, but if I DM them a funny meme, I have to send it to his wife too. And like, on his birthday, I sent him a voicemail and a video and a FaceTime. And I literally, he never heard from him. And I finally had to call his wife and say, did he get it? And does he say he got it? Yeah. She's like, you know, he just doesn't look. And I'm like, it's okay. It's hard to text back. It's hard to keep up with all of it. I'm doing this to defend herself right now. No, I'm on your brother's side.

Are you? Are you bad at it? I'm not a good texter. No, I'm not a good text. What form of communication do you use the most? To be honest with you, I really don't want to communicate after I'm done working because there's so much work done on the phone. I know. I'd rather communicate in person.

I fully agree, but that's, I mean, are your friends easily, like, easily around you? Is like that? Sometimes, but sometimes not. I'm kind of like your brother. Do you get in trouble? Like, do your friends give you a hard time? Especially as a woman. But we're probably both the worst. We're probably both the worst on text. I'm better on email than text, surprisingly.

Really? I think the text come in so fast. There's like the lot. I mean, at one point there was like 800 unread on my phone because I just, I couldn't get through them and I gave up. And then I just went through and mass deleted all of them without looking. Wow.

Because I figured like if it gets back, it's probably important. But I just was I couldn't, you know, we could be doing this show and like 40 could come through because. It's three hours or it's like, what, two hours, whatever. It's like from one person with eight messages. People that, that's a lower excerpt. Yeah. I don't think people don't have a good text etiquette, I feel. Oh, there's no question.

Well, I think we didn't, I mean, it's funny because I was watching something not too long ago and they were talking about the fact like when cars first came out, there was, you know, they didn't have seatbelts. And they were, you know, sometimes they exploded because they were at. Over time, things have improved. Like that technology was introduced and it was improved over time. There are airbags. There are seatbelts. They're required.

All these things. And the fact matters, you know, text and email and all these things, like, they're new technologies. and we haven't really safety-proofed them for adults or kids. And we're just kind of winging it. There needs to be like seatbelt boundaries. I know, right? I also. I want a car seat.

Yes, I want a car seat too. My dad was kind of a crazy guy who's younger, but he tells me these stories about when, you know, he was younger and he would one day just like up and bail out and go to Europe for three months. What he said was the coolest thing, which is different than now, he's like, nobody knew where he was. It wasn't really a way to get a hold of him. you couldn't follow what he was doing. And then he'd come back three months later and there'd be all these stories

and you'd have to connect with people. And I think that it's great that we're so connected but I also sometimes think like it maybe is not so great at times. You can't disappear. It's really, I think, and I think it is in a place in a time when you're so connected to everything,

being able to disappear is pretty magical. I mean, there's this place called Vivamara which is in Austria that I go to with my girlfriend. Oh, here he goes. He's taking notes. Go ahead. I'm obsessed. And basically it's like,

a total, it's a complete reset and it's all like medical spa stuff and like, you know, it's, and they completely redo your gut and they basically are like, it's a no phone place. I mean, you can have, but it's really no one's on their phone and it is an absolute gift. Are you doing like facials and like meeting with the doctor? Everything. It's not like anything that's here in the United States. So it is a combination of beauty and wellness and doctors. And so basically they will look at everything from.

what your food intake is, what kind of allergies you have, what your blood oxygen level is, what your blood, you know, like do a blood scan, do everything. And then they will recommend all kinds of treatments, both beauty and health. And just take care of you for like, you have to go for at least seven days. I usually, I recommend 12. It is, and then you, the food is completely non-alcoholine. It's incredible. And you leave there feeling like half your size and like your energy is out of control and you feel so much better. And it's a detail. It's a, like, it's a, it's a perfect detox. I highly recommend it for anyone who has a kind of crazy life. There's a story I haven't told on the podcast, but then when I look back on this memory,

it's a little different for Lauren because she was so postpartum, but right at the beginning of the pandemic, before the pandemic was announced, there was like this weird cuss period. Remember that time when people didn't really know what was going on? I just thought it was going to be for the summer. How could we all forget? We all stressed traumatic stress. I worked on this deal and then I closed this deal for these business and I was like, hey, we're going to go out to the desert in Palm Springs and I kind of let loose. And it was like, it was me and Lauren and our closest friend and our kid. And it was just this little bubble, we went to go relax. And literally the day we got there, the pandemic was announced. And what happened was when nobody

knew we were there. And then the city ordinance passed and said, hey, nobody's allowed to do any rentals. And the guy that I was renting the house from called me. He's like, listen, we can't have anybody. Nobody can come. If you want to stay here, I'll let you stay here for the whole month for like $100 bucks a night. It was a nice place. And so we stayed out there for a month. Wow. Nobody knew we were there. Nobody was trying to reach us. Nobody could come there.

And it was just this tiny little bubble. But nobody was communicating. And it was one of the best times ever because nobody was on the phones. And we were just out there. And I started thinking, like, this is what it used to be like before people were so connected on this thing. It's really, like, frightening to me. And I, you know, like with my son, you know, we were talking about like, do we do something where it's like the phone goes into a basket on Saturday morning. And it doesn't come.

And you get to check it at noon. and you get to check it at four and it stays in like a friend of mine Emily does this and she's like and I'm so wanting to it's so fucking hard yeah really hard and I mean I have a role like no phones at the table does not matter rest absolutely you cannot have your phone at the dinner table ever and that is and we then we live by it my son will not like he will not pull his phone out the table there's nothing worse in seeing a couple sitting across from each other at a restaurant and they're like in their worst that is the worst it's the I'm like what are you what are you doing I also think with what you and I do. I find it to be way more interesting when I meet someone who's super

entrepreneurial and driven and they put their phone down. It's, it's, it's unexpected. When I, when I go out to eat with someone, my phone is in my purse. I don't. Absolutely. And also, like, enough is enough. Well, it's also, if you're sitting across from someone, like, I'm sorry, like, I owe you my attention and my eye contact. It's like basic level respect. And again, and again, if I want to share something with you on my phone or show you a picture, that's one Or maybe take a quick snap, put it away. But honestly, I'm like really, I'm not into it. And it's funny because now, you know, with this new television show that I've been on,

it's like hard to hide. You know, and I'm in the middle of, I've been in the middle of a deep conversation and someone has come out to me and said, can I take a picture with you? Yeah. And I'm like, and I've said to them, I'm in the middle of a conversation. Can you give me a minute? Do you actually say that? Yeah.

Yeah. If I am in a middle of a conversation and I'm talking to someone, I will absolutely say that. So what do they say? They usually will say, some people will say, oh, I'm sorry to bother you and they'll walk off. or some people wait. I've had every version of it. It sounds like you're really good at setting boundaries. No, I'm terrible. But that's a boundary that you just told me.

It's just one of them, but it's not, I'm not good with a lot. You aren't? Not great. No, I mean, I'm getting better, but I'm not great. But I feel like because, I mean, you've had such an eclectic career, but it's interesting. I feel a lot of people that do what you do now, they don't really know how to handle that experience. Like, you obviously don't want to be rude or mean, but also you have to have

some kind of healthy boundaries and be treated as a person. Yeah, and I think it's less about me. It's about the person I'm talking with. I mean, one time I was having like kind of an, like a serious conversation with someone on the street who I used to work with and we hadn't seen each other a long time and they were going through a rough time and they were like, oh, it's so good. You know, I used to be their boss. So we were like in this intimate conversation and I was talking to them about their new

situation and what's going on. And like this person was emotional, not crying, but just like we were in it. And I do think like there's a certain amount of emotion. IQ, which we talked about earlier, is like, read the room. Like, this is not an appropriate time. Like, when someone is, like, deep in someone else's space and standing close and talking, like, it's intimate. So maybe it's not the time. And it doesn't mean I'm, like, grateful when people ask, don't get me wrong. And it's lovely. But I also think there is this idea, like, people sometimes, I think, have this sense of familiarity because they know you. Right. And I get it.

At the same time, I'm like, you also are very recognizable. Like, it's the glass. and you have this like and I'm tall. Sheak look and you're tall and it's very, it's a very specific, beautiful look. So I can imagine it's hard for you to now be famous. I mean, I feel like you've always been known, but how's why I think? Different. Every time we have someone that comes on from a show, like a property like this, like we control this environment.

It's safe. Like we can produce what we want. Like people know us, but they're, but it's not so mainstream. Yeah. And I think even with like some actors and. celebrities that are doing more of like the traditional stuff. Like you know them and you see them, but it's like, but I think in the world of reality TV,

people feel one, very entitled to any opinion whatsoever and to be able to voice that opinion and also feel because you signed up for this, they're entitled to your time. Completely. And I also think, you know, actors are different because they're playing a role. What's different about this is that I'm just me. So they think that they know me because they now know my life. And so whereas like you might not go up to like highly generous. Timothy Shallame because they are, there's, it's a, there's like space between you that is inherent because

they're not, you're not, I'm Kylie Jenner's a little, she's on that show, but like actors is different because there's like, you're not meeting them. You're meeting like the role that they played. Right. And it's so, again, don't give me wrong. I'm grateful and it's, there's nothing better than someone wanting to take their picture with me. I'm so honored. It is just interesting how, like, there's just no boundaries for some people. I think, too, the show has so much. I think, too, the show has so much history and fan like it's like i'm i have watched all the seasons of every single you have i i'll tell you why i like it i think that my business life is so chaotic to be able to come home and watch other chaos in a way is like a therapeutic way for me to just tune out my

brain do you watch it together yeah he watches i will like i'm not as i'm not as like if it's on and i'm with her then i will i love it i don't have any guy that says they're not paying attention in my life. So it's kind of like interesting. No, but any guy that says when that's on that like they don't want, I mean, you can't draw your eyes away from some of this stuff that goes on on these shows. It is fascinating. I get sucked in. I start yelling. I'm like, why are you doing that? I also like obsessed with human nature. And I'm just like obsessed with the whole, the whole like dynamic. Yeah. And I don't have like, I'm not around like a ton of women like that. So to like watch it unfold with alcohol is like wild. But I also think there's an inspiring part about it because a lot of the

housewives have some really incredible things going on. I mean, it hits a lot of points. It's interesting that I think would you have a favorite one? I love New York. Yeah. New York. Really? Beverly Hills too. I like New York from Beverly Hills. Because there's nothing like the attitude of New Yorkers. It's blunt. I think New Jersey's close because it's just so chaotic. But I think like New York, I think all of the women that come together on the shows and all the backgrounds, it's so eclectic and so different. I also like seeing you guys as houses in your closets and your shoes and your bit. Like it's just like, I just like, I just like, I It's just like a thing.

It's like such a nice way to like, it's almost like meditated. And I think this city. I'm too boring. I'll tell you why. What are they going to film me doing? Okay. What are they going to film me doing watching housewives? Jenna, here's what I said about this.

I don't think it ever works out for the men. I think there's very few men that have been able to go on these properties into a. I think women don't like to see men in women's business, you know, in the fights. I don't think they want to see them defending their wives or getting in the squabbles with other husbands. I think, like we keep saying this on this show. I was watching Steve Harvey and he was talking about a marriage and the marriage should be a closed circle between two people

and they should go through their issues. When you invite the world and everyone's commenting on you're like, you're inviting a certain kind of energy. Trust me, she knows. She knows. She knows. But I think for the men in particular, there's very few that have come out looking good.

I agree. I think it's a really delicate balance to strike. And I, you know, listen, I think everyone goes into this. what you can't understand, like, what no one can understand, and myself included is, like, you, you are putting yourself out there, but you're, you've no idea what parts of you are going to get selected. You're not in the editing room, so you don't know how, like, you know what it's like, if you take an excerpt of anything, it can be turned into something. Sure. So, you're putting your faith into something, and, like, at the end of the day, the goal is to create,

like, drama and energy and tension and all of those things, and laughter. But, you know, that's, you are serving yourself on a silver platter and it is a massive risk and I think when you enter into it as a couple it is just the layers of complexity way up. Allo moves. Are you making excuses for why you don't work out? I am about to give you a hack that will change your life, streaming on demand wellness that features yoga practices, fitness routines, meditation sessions and so much more from one of our favorite brands, Allo Yoga. This is going to fit into your schedule. All the classes are on demand. I know for me when I'm short on time, I can just drop in and do a fitness class. So if I don't have time to go to the gym and drive my car and all the things, but I want to squeeze something in,

I can do this on my nude mat in my room with all the sunlight pouring in. Maybe I put a little Blasanova on, even a podcast, and I just do like a bar class or a Pilates class. It's so easy to just do from the comfort of your home, which is amazing. They also have more than fitness. They have Gwashaw, dry brushing, face yoga, nutrition classes, and just all the wellness things. But the best part is you need little to no equipment. There are over 100 new classes added every month, so they keep things spicy and like mix it up. And everything's streaming on demand, which we love. Save time, squeeze it in, get it done.

Find the wellness routine that fits your schedule with alo moves. For a limited time, get a one year alamu's subscription for only $99. This is such a good gift. Go to Allommoves.com and use code Skinny 99 in all caps to take advantage of this Cyberweek deal. That's A-L-O-O-Moves.com, code skinny 99 in all caps. Allo moves.com, code skinny 99 in all caps. That's A-L-O-Moves.com, code skinny 99 in all caps. Let me tell you about 100% Mongolian cashmere sweaters from $50, okay? Enter Quince. Quince items are priced 50 to 80%.

scent less than similar brands. And their cashmere is amazing. It's like affordable luxury. How do I know? I've gotten to try them on and wear them. They are amazing. They feel so good against your skin. And the best part is they're affordable. Also, when you're on the site, they have washable silk tops. They have washable silk dresses, cotton sweaters, and comfy pants. And everything is just priced right, which is absolutely amazing. Buttery soft cashmere is the move for the holidays, and you should also know that Quince only works with factories that are safe, ethical, and responsible,

which ultimately they just hit all the points. I am obsessed with black cashmere, and they have some beautiful black cashmere sweaters on their site. Very affordable. Get affordable luxury for everyone on your list with Quince. Go to quince.com slash skinny. You get free shipping on your order in 365-day returns. That's Q-U-I-N-C-E.com slash skinny.

You get free shipping and 365-day returns. Quince.com slash skinny. You get free shipping on your order in 365-day returns. That's Q-U-I-N-C-E.com slash skinny. You get free shipping and 365-day returns. Quince.com slash skinny. Go grab your 100% Mongolian cashmere sweaters in all the colors. I have learned so much about the gut and how important

it is to take care of the gut. Gut issues are gas, bloating, diarrhea, constipation, indigestion, heartburn, acid reflex. And what I do for my gut on a daily basis is I take two probiotics. And the probiotic that I take is just thrive. I've been taking this probiotic forever. I like it so much I've interviewed the founder, I think like three times. I've learned all about this specific probiotic from a microbiologist. It's one of the only ones that actually survives the trip to the gut. So much so that I actually like went and did a deep dive of their products. And I also really like their psychobiotic, which goes in tandem with the probiotic. Both these things are so good for your immune system and your gut. What I do for my kids,

you guys, is I take the just-stripe probiotic and I crack it open and I put it in a smoothie. I even like do it on my dog food sometimes. I am all about a good probiotic. If you're not taking care of your gut, I would definitely look into it and make it a priority because the gut is where a lot of things start. Just Thrive products have more clinical research than just about anyone in the industry. There's no fake marketing, no claims, just real proven results. Every product is natural and they have a money back guarantee. So you can get 20% off a 90 day bottle of Just Thrive probiotic, the one I take and justcom at justthrivehealth.com with promo code Skinny 90. That's just thrivehealth.com promo code Skinny 90. You can get 20% off a 90 day bottle of Just Thrive probiotic, the one I take and just thrive.

and JustCom at Just Thrivehealth.com with promo code Skinny 90. To your point about like pulling a sliver, I know exactly what's like I don't. And listen, they'll cut up this show and we'll get those slivers. But at the end of the day, I will also release the full version to give the context so that if somebody ever said, well, you know, clean it up. But if somebody says, Michael said this and I didn't like it. Yeah. No, I could share the full context. But maybe with you on the show, they're never going to show that full context.

And you're just, you're at the mercy of that. For sure. And it's like, you know, we've all had parts of our story. been told and and it gets interpreted and people then make comments about it and say things and it's like there's more there but it doesn't really matter it's just a show and I think that's the part that gets lost yes because the end of the day it's like it's hard to separate the part that's like yes this is your life but it's a show and let's be real like this isn't my entire life like you're seeing a sliver and obviously I'm being protective of my private life as much as I possibly can

and as much as I'm sharing like I'm also being protective and so it's It's, you know, and I obviously everyone wants vulnerability. You want to know everything. But they can't know everything. Right. Let's be, like, and by the way, no one shows everything. And I would have to be a show only about one person for every. I mean, no.

And honestly, like, let's talk about boring. I mean, I'm the most boring one on the show. Like, and I know the girls have like, they're like, you don't carry your weight. I'm like, I'm sorry. Like, without them, like, they're the sparkly. Like, I'm like, they're the sparkly stars. I'm the one who, like, sits in the corner and, like, makes faces. Isn't that interesting how she thinks that?

No, it's so true. I think that's so interesting. I feel like you're the star of the show. Oh, thank you. But if you really watch, watch, watch. No, really watch. Watch with a different lens and watch with the lens and listen to what I say versus what they say. I am like in reaction. I'm in reaction to them. I'm oftentimes playing back off of them. But you're like the narrator. But I think, but that's in all in that's all in retrospect. Think about it. They're the ones on screen doing all that. And as a narrator, I'm doing that by myself in a studio. And I'm being asked questions. And I'm, it's, it's. When you think about it, they're the ones carrying the show. It's not me. And I know this. Like, I say it to them all. They say it to me too.

I'll tell you what you are. You're the voice of reason. And every single, listen, I've got the housewives down to a formula. There has to be a voice of reason. So, like, Lisa Vanderpump was the voice of reason for Beverly Hills. And she was like, she made the quips. Like, you need that sort of character to be the conductor of the show. Who is the voice of reason of New Jersey?

The voice of reason of New Jersey. New Jersey. That's a tough one. I'd have to think about that, Michael. You'll have to get back to me. Maybe Melissa Gorga a little bit. I mean, I think that New York and Beverly Hills have a strong narrator. You know who's narrating the show. What do you think of the Kyle and Morgan thing?

I'm very excited about this. I want to believe that she's coming over to my team. Well, this is a little bit dicey for us because we have a personal relationship there. Okay. Sorry. We could talk about it. So, no, I think. We're really good friends with Farah.

And I think that what I personally think is I can understand, and I told Michael this, why there's a lot of women who are late in life lesbians. I actually really understand it. Are they late in life lesbians or they lesbians are entirely? Either way. Either way. I can understand both sides. I can understand always being a lesbian or late in life.

But I'm speaking directly to late in life because listen, we get tired of your shit. No, I, no, like, what is wrong with you? I think that if Michael and I broke up and I was older, I'm going to say, like, let's say I was like 45. Okay, okay. I love that there's a marker. She's map this out. This is very specific. And I find someone who is not going to come with all the shit that guys come with because they come with a lot.

So, so do women. Yeah, but. That's correct, Jenna. Yeah, but there's something sensual and easy about women. I don't, you know, I think like women being desired, it's like, I also think that there's this construct that is really hard to replace, but I see it having now been on the other side and dating women, is that women make assumptions of what men want, and it's not always what they actually, you know, I think, and what I mean by that is, I find that since I have not been playing to men, I get more attention for men than I did when I was straight. What I mean by that is when I, when there was an undertone that I wanted their attention, I did not get it. And when I no longer wanted it, I got tons of it. I, oh my God, this is the, this is the tip, guys, everyone who's listening. This is what I say, all you have to do with every single man is ignore him. It's literally that easy. Just ignore them. Well, if you look at them and think of their only,

your only source of fun with them is this friend and like there's zero, like, and you just, like, as soon as I didn't want to date them, I would start talking to them like they were going to be a friend. And I would engage with them and look them in the eye in the same way I would, a girl or a guy, like a girl or a friend. It doesn't completely, and I'm telling you, I got picked up all the time. It was an immediate switch. I could not believe it. And I think also there was a safety because it was like there wasn't this idea that I was coming after them. So any kind of advances I made or advances meaning, you know, being warm, it was okay. It wasn't scary. And I wasn't scared and I didn't have any expectations and I didn't care whether I saw them. And it was an immediate

it switch. So what has been the other differences between being married to a man and dating women? I mean, there's a lot. I mean, first of all, sex is very different. Is it better? Well, okay, first of all, I wanted to say, this is no commentary on male and female sex. This is for me specifically. And I think part of it is because I grew up, like, I, when I was growing up and you see it in movies, I just watched that movie call me by your name again. And I, I, I just watched that movie call me by your name again. And, you know, I don't know. I've seen that movie. Oh, you guys, it's the hottest, most beautiful film I've ever seen.

Oh, I've got to see it. It's Timothy Shalameh. It's one of his, it's an army hammer. It's one of the most tender love stories you will ever see. It's the hottest film. And it's what Timothy Shalame, that was his breakout film. Okay. So it's worth watching you.

And it's the sweetest, sexiest thing I've ever seen. But anyway, he has, you know, sex with the young girl. And after he finishes, he goes over. And that's all I ever knew was like, once the guy comes, it's over. I thought that that's what it was. For years. and years and years and truthfully like that was not I was not wrong like I experienced that not not not with everyone and not you know I'm not saying across the board but that was primarily how I thought

it went down and there wasn't this automatic assumption that I was going to have an orgasm that just wasn't part of it and with women that is it's obvious it's like there's no question both of you are going to get there and no one is stopping until that happens whereas that is not culturally the way it is with men and women I'm not saying that men don't finish. I'm not, that's not a general statement, but that's a lot of what I was, was brought up to see, and that's what I've seen in movies and porn and all the other ways. I witnessed sex, and I was like, oh, shit, that sucks. Again, there were plenty of men out there that know what's up, but there are a lot. So are you saying, though, that after a woman finish,

or after a woman finishes that she doesn't just roll over, there's more interaction after sex? Well, you both do. Yeah, and also saying, like the reciprocosity of making sure that both finish. Like a lot of men just don't do that. Yeah. A lot, I mean, there are many times that I would have sex with a man and not come. I don't think I could do that. That's not, that's some bullshit. Well, you're also married and you have a wonderful loving, tender relationship.

You guys are very connected. I haven't been dating for a while. But if you talk to, when you start to talk to women and you really talk to them, there are many women who don't come or they have to make themselves come. I have a tip if anyone's in a relationship and they're, they're a boyfriend or the guy they're dating or their husband isn't like. letting, I don't know if letting is the right word. No, not letting. I mean, making sure it happens.

Making sure it happens. Get a vibrator. Bring a vibrator. We did not mention this. No, no, no, no, no. No, Jenna, I don't mean get a vibrator alone. I mean, bring a vibrator in the bedroom. No, no, talk about it and learn how to do it together. Yeah, okay, talk about it too. Talk about what makes famous.

If it's not very smart, just bring a vibrator in the room. I never mentioned this year, but we did start a sex business together. That is a little bit of a sideboard. We have to send you some stuff. Okay, great. I'm all for, like, I think it's also like, like I wasn't brought up to talk about it. I didn't know how to talk about it. I wasn't, I was never encouraged to. And also, I think, you know, with women, like, if something isn't working, it's like, oh, do you not like that? Am I in the wrong spot? Can I do it faster,

slow or whatever? It's like this, it's a completely normal dialogue. It's verbal. Whereas with men, I think if I, if they weren't, if something wasn't working, I think there was a sense of shame that like they weren't doing it right and I didn't want to make them feel bad or I would feel bad if it was taking too long. So I was like, oh, don't worry about, you know, it's like, I was, I just the way that I came up in that world, I didn't have the language to say, like, oh, would you do it slower? Would you do that? Or would you move that? Or, oh, like, and I just, I didn't do it. So, like, again, this is my experience. I'm not saying in general about men don't know, but I'm just saying that was a very different experience for me.

It seems like there's no ego involved. Well, you're both dealing with the same situation. You both know. And with a woman, it's a little bit harder. Like, with a man, you know, there's a pretty straightforward way to get them off. With a woman, it's a little less clear. And particularly if you're two women, it's like, you have to kind of figure it out. And you've got to know, other's bodies and it takes a second. And so you both know that that's what's up. So there's no confusion about talking about it. What about dating? How is the dating? I've never really dated, which is so funny. But like when you're around women versus men, like the conversation, like is what's the just what's the differences from a loving perspective? I don't know. I mean,

I would say that there is a lot more because you mentioned so you kind of know, you're on a similar wavelength and you have the same issues and you know your sensitivities. I think there's a, you know, I think that there's definitely, what I have experience is a little bit more like understanding and tenderness. And there's not that same sense of like embarrassment or shame, particularly in little things. Like, you know, I remember how anxiety ridden I would get if I hadn't waxed myself or if I didn't, you know, if I, anything physical or like if I was like, oh my God, I have a little cellulite. I would get so like worked up with a man. And again, it doesn't mean that they were feeling that way. But it was my way that I came to the table.

Like, I thought, oh, you don't think I'm perfect. so I'm not attractive to you anymore. Or like that I would spin that in my head. Whereas like with women, you don't make that same assumption, or at least I don't because we're both going, we're both in the same boat. We kind of know what's up. And again, this is like, it's just, I think,

a little bit of what you come to the table with. It's not that the man is doing anything wrong. It's just like, culturally, that's the way I came up in the world and that's the stuff I bring to the table. And it made me like, I made it hard, you know? And it's just, it's really different. You know, I don't, I don't think this idea, you said this earlier, like do people come out later,

are they always lesbians or do that? I don't know. I honestly think one of the things that's challenging is, and one of the reasons that I've been more open about it, is like, I never saw an out woman, my entire growing up. The only person I ever saw that was out was Ellen DeGeneres and Rachel Maddo, like literally, and then a few soccer players more recently. What was interesting for me personally is my aunt was out.

Oh, really? And I went to my first gay wedding when I was like, four or five years old. Wow. And she married a woman. Wow. In what state? In California, in San Diego. And I guess, like, looking back, I never thought about it until, like, I've had more of these conversations, but it was probably, like, pretty formative in the sense

that, like, it wasn't strange for me because that's what I saw. That's amazing. I would go stay at their house and be like, I'm going to my... That's a very rare experience. So amazing. I'm going to my aunt's house. Every Thanksgiving and every Christmas, and she ended up getting divorced, but then got with another woman. So, like, I don't know. I saw that and I understood it from an early age.

But I also think the thing that I think that's, there's, there's, there's, there's, there's, there's, there's understanding, but I think it's also like seeing something that looks like you. Like, the only gay women I ever saw in the public were very butch. And I wasn't that person. And so I didn't identify. I never thought it could be me because I was like, oh, I don't, that doesn't feel familiar to me. So I can't be part of that group. Like it just didn't, it didn't even register. I'll tell you this, though, too, about her.

And I don't know. I hope I don't say this wrong or butcher it. to me at that age, there was no possibility ever that I could ever see her with a man. Oh, interesting. Like, there was like, I don't know how to explain it, but just like as a kid, like it didn't even, like there was no possibility that I would ever even assume that she could be with a man. Does that make sense? Yes, it does.

I mean, it totally does. But I think that speaks a little bit to what I'm talking about is like I didn't sit so definitively in that category. I was feminine. I liked wearing heels and red lipstick and jewelry. And I didn't fit into the physical icon. pornography that I was seeing around me that was what a gay woman looked like. And so I was like, oh, I'm not, it didn't, it just never even crossed my mind that I would even sit. And it wasn't until I met, you know, someone in later in life who I was like, oh, you kind of look like me and I'm attracted to you and how

weird is this and what's going on with me. It was like not even online from me prior to that. So you didn't realize you wanted to date women until you met a specific person. Yeah. Oh, that's interesting. So you didn't like go, like get out of your marriage and say, you know, I'd like to me to a woman. No. No idea. So it just happened naturally and organically. And I was terrified. I mean, imagine, like, I've never done any of the things that you can imagine go on in the bedroom. Like, I was like, I had no idea what I was doing. I was absolutely terrified. And, you know, then she knew that. And like, men are good at imagining that, I will say. I know. It's probably the one thing that I get asked about the most. Do you get a lot of DMs from

girls hitting on you now? Yeah. I mean, since I've been publicly out in a relationship, not as much. but when I was obviously single a lot. And so what do you, do you respond? What do you do? I mean, I think during the pandemic, I responded because I was sitting by myself in the apartment. I was like, sure, let's talk. And, you know, I mean, it depends.

It also, like, you know, if somebody's private, I don't know. But if there's something, you know, it's, you know, it's ultimately, like, it was all during the pandemic. So I couldn't meet any of this youthful anyway. So it was sort of safe, you know. I was just sitting in my living room having, like, random DMs with people. but no, I haven't really, I don't actually engage and go on dates. When you're going through all of this and you also have such a big business and you have such a

beautiful career, what is the decider factor for you to go on real housewives? That was my question. I wanted to know. I always want to know the motivations of why, like, quote unquote, when people have their stuff going on on paper, like the motivation. It was really, it was kind of straightforward. I was, you know, have this brand love scene. And we were in Target and we had about be written a thousand stores.

And the places where people knew us, like the places where people knew who I was or knew what love scene was, we were flying off the shelves. But the places where people didn't know who I was, the product wasn't moving as quickly. And Target was like, listen, we need you to think about how you can help market this brand. And I was like, what am I going to do that's national? You know, we're small. We didn't have a ton of cash. to spend on a marketing employee.

And so I was like, what can I do? And then randomly I got a DM from the people at Real Housewives. And it was like, Andy wants us to talk to you. Would you talk? And I was like, sure. And it was completely random. I didn't expect anything to happen. And as I was going through the conversation,

in the same time having this conversation with target of like, what can you do? And I was like, well, maybe this is the answer. And therein lies the answer. And it worked. Did you know it was going to be the reboot? Or did you think it was like Luann, Sonia, Ramona? Oh, no, no. They told me it was a reboot. I would not have gone on the show. And nothing against them, but just there was no place for me in that show. And I also think, you know, that show to me didn't necessarily represent New York as New York as today. And I think what's nice about the group now is like, yeah, it's so much more diverse in age, ethnicity, vibe and, you know, where people live even. Like, it's, you know, before it was about being on the upbri side. And it was all these women that had very similar lifestyles. And this is very different. Yeah, I totally agree with you. It feels youthful. It feels fresh. And, you know, like, even just. just having someone on the show who's an actual influencer who know.

I mean, it's so funny we all watch Cy because she actually knows what the hell she's doing. Like all of us, I mean, I've never been an influencer. I go to a party and people are like, did you get any pictures? I was like, well, I took a picture of, you know, maybe a screen grab of something I looked at yesterday. I'm like, I didn't take any pictures. I went to an event last night and they said, how did your pictures come out? And I'm like, I don't know. I'm going to ask Athena how her pictures were ready.

I can borrow them because I'm like terrible with that shit. But Cy's like on it. She knows what she's doing. And like, that's cool. As you guys know, I launched a pink humidifier with canopy. And I'm obsessed with humidifiers because it makes your skin so supple and plump while you sleep. I use mine all the time. In fact, my son just got sick like a week ago and I had my canopy humidifier in his room.

It's like the chicest, most beautiful humidifier you've ever seen, like ever. And recently, they just launched canopy's new filtered showerhead. So if you're looking to filter your water, they have. have you covered. Canopies known for their beauty hacks and reimagined devices, and they have really given the showerhead a makeover. Everything is dermatologist recommended for your skin. They have three-stage filtration. So everything that's coming through your showerhead is clean, filtered, beautiful water, which is amazing for dry itchy scalp. It's amazing for rashes on your legs. It's even amazing for acne. I have learned all about hard water, and I've learned that a lot of dry, irritative.

skin comes from bad water. So if you don't have a filter on your showerhead, I would highly recommend it because a lot of our water has a lot of added chlorine in it. So definitely head over to get canopy.com. You save $25 on your canopy filtered showerhead purchase today with Canopies hassle-free filter subscription. I also personally would for sure get the humidifier. It is so good. And even better our listeners can use code skinny at checkout to save an additional 10% off your canopy purchase. Hurry, your hair and skin will thank you. Let's talk about Weight Watchers.

Weight Watchers is the number one doctor-recommended weight management program and the trusted authority in evidence-based weight health. Beyond the science joining Weight Watchers means you become part of a powerful, passionate community. They're all about community there. We got to learn all about that when we had the CEO on our podcast. The company's purpose is to always inspire health. habits and lasting weight loss. So how they do this is they focus on behavior change,

nutrition, science, and real connections, while never giving up on the food that we all love. Personally, I really love how they've evolved their approach to weight loss over the years, and they're really like with the times, which I appreciate. Weight Watchers has helped millions of members on their journeys over the years, and recently they've launched Weight Watchers Clinic. And this provides support to even more people. across the weight health spectrum. Most importantly, I think that Weight Watchers knows that weight management is not a one-size-fits-all thing. There are behavioral and biological factors to consider, so they really have a multi-faceted approach when it comes to losing weight. Head to www.com slash tSC to see if you qualify.

If you do, use our code TSC-25 to get your first month free. Plus, you get $25 off your second month. That's www.com slash TSC. This episode of The Skinny Confidential is brought to you by the new L'Oreal-P-Roursel, Dark Spot Serum, and Broad Spectrum, SPF-50 Daily Lotion. Darkspots, game over. Okay, so here's the deal. We had Dr. Chris, he's a dermatologist, like, top-rated, he's all over TikTok. I asked him on the podcast what his favorite drugstore recommendations were, and he mentioned these two products, okay? L'Oreal Paris, bright reveal, dark spot serum, and broad spectrum SPF daily lotion.

And the reason he mentioned these is because he said they are amazing for dark spots. Like they visibly fade all types of dark spots. So age spots, sun spots, even post acne marks. I am someone that gets a lot of dark spots. So I'm all about this. And I looked into this product and every ingredient is made for all skin tones. It's suitable for sensitive skin. it's even formulated and validated by dermatologist.

In one week, you start fading, even stubborn dark spots, and in two weeks your skin looks clearer, which we love. And then, of course, the SPF visibly reduces the appearance of dark spots and resist sun-induced signs of aging. So they sort of like work in tandem together. If you're looking to pick these products up, discover the new bright reveal dark spot duo. Visit Target online and in store to buy yours today.

Also, it's lightweight and non-greasy. Discover the new bright reveal dark spot duo. Visit Target online and in store to buy yours today. I have to tell you that I have never related more to a housewife in all the billions of years that I've watched the show than when you left the house to not sleep over and when you wanted to go on your own flight a day early, first class. Thank you. Thank you.

You never related more, Lauren. No. Why is that funny? You don't agree with that? My personality is that exact? Oh, no, no. No, no. I'm a complete brat.

I'm not a sleepover girl. I don't want to sleep over at someone's house. It's just not my schick. I feel like I'm married. I'm a mother. I don't want to sleep at someone's house. It's nothing mean. I just, I don't want to sleep at the royal family's house.

I don't want to sleep over at someone's house. I want my own space in my own room. And I kind of don't want to take a flight with someone either because I feel like I can get work done. And I'd like to be left alone and have a glass of champagne and get there and be refreshed. And like I don't always, you know, I'm not a big bachelor at party person. It's just I'm very self-aware of who I am. And there was a visceral reaction to you not wanting to go with the group. And I've felt that before from people who want to do sleepovers and they're projecting.

what they like onto me. It's interesting. I think there was a couple of times where those kinds of things happened where people, what their desires were in the way they wanted something to go, it didn't fit with mine. And they were sort of like, you know, even just wanting me to dress up and saying, like, oh, you should wear sexier clothes. I'm like, well, what I think is sexy may not be what you think is sexy. And I love you in that like super fitted, like sparkly dressed, like by all means have at it. It's just not me. And it's interesting because it's like that wanting me to fit into like what their vision is.

A little sorority. And, well, it's just their, it's what, what make, you know, and I get it. And the reason is, it's because that's what men like to see. Men want girls in skinny tight dresses, but their boobs look hot and they look, like, we get it. Like, I'm sorry, but you, would you not back me up on that a little bit? I think at times, yeah, but I was going to say, like, and one of my things I was going to, maybe talk about this now is like, when I see the way your dress and the way you're put

together, like, I immediately can reckon. Like, I might not have the greatest style, but I have taste. I'm like, that is somebody who's put together. Michael's a little different. He's the wrong guy to ask because Michael loves taste. He loves the cut. I can recognize taste. If something's not altered on my body, right, he wants the alter.

He's a little different. I actually will look sometimes at the way some women are dressed. And if it's a little too basic B, I kind of don't. This is the wrong audience. Appreciate the dress up. He's a bigger bra than me. So what I'm saying is like I can look at you guys. They're put together.

You got stuff. I can see. He would pick your look any day over like. No, no. But what I'm saying is I would not pick you. general, though, would you say that men like women to be, that very feminine, sort of, like, hot girl? Men are really getting hit on this show. No, no, no.

But I want to be clear. I want to be clear, though. I don't think there's anything wrong with that. I love me. We like to appreciate the figure of a beautiful woman to say it diplomatically. So do I. Like, please. I like, I love it when Bryn.

But what you're saying is that because they think that that looks, that that look is sexy. They're projecting what they think on to you. They were like, yes, they wanted me to, they put me in that black dress. And they were like, we want to dress you. And I get it. It was fun. It was plund dress up, but it was interesting to me that for them, they were like, you need to show your body more. You need to look like this and whatever.

You just can't look like the women that pour out of a Vegas nightclub at 2 a.m. Do you know the look I'm talking about? I'm kidding. Oh, please. I've seen every version of that. I know. I'm going to get fucking destroyed for saying that. It's true.

I just think that there was something. That was a very interesting thing for me to watch because in all groups like that, I'm you where it's like. A little oddball? I need my space. I don't know. It's nothing against anyone. Listen, it was really hard for me because I felt badly. Like, I never in a million years did it occur to me that me going early was going to be a thing. Because it wouldn't be a thing if anyone did it to you. You wouldn't give a shit. God, I would be like, please take care of yourself. Do whatever you need to do. I am excited to see you whenever you're ready.

Like, I'm here. Like, great. It did not occur to me. And then I felt bad. I was like, shit, I didn't. Like, the last thing I wanted to do was make them feel like I didn't want to be with them. I just was like, I want to go down and get a tan. I mean, it's also like if you look at them like gorgeous brin, they all have the most perfect skin you've ever seen on the planet and they're all tan. I don't have nice skin and I'm not tan. I'm the whitest girl on the planet. And like so when I don't look tan, my scars show up a lot more. And that's why. And on camera they get picked up. Like if you take a picture of my skin, if you look at it like this, it's one thing. If you take a picture of it, the camera for some reason picks up all of the different colors in my skin and magnifies them. And that's why I like to get tan. I never noticed it once. Because I was tan. I think you. And I also cover it up. Thank you. But I cover up. I don't, I'm not, I was not, I was in a wetsuit. Like you never saw it.

Yeah, but I, I, I don't think anyone's looking at that. You're so sharp and smart and beautiful. I don't think people. Well, they don't look at it because I hide it carefully. No, because on camera, it really comes out. I'm telling, I mean, listen, you are gorgeous and you obviously take care of yourself and you're very conscious about the way you look. If something bothered you about your body, you would hide it. I have 100%.

And I understand that. I also think that you ask me what I ever do the show. I think the hardest thing about the show is the girl strips. That would make me sweat for days because it's going away for three days with a lot of women and a lot of drama and a lot of dynamic. And whose room is this? It's easier to just get a hotel room down the street. But it's almost like you can't because that's the show. Yeah.

We've been talking a lot about how difficult men are. but I will say, I have never encountered a situation where me or any of my friends gave a shit, what kind of flight or how someone back somewhere, or if they slept over or not ever. I don't think men are difficult. I think that women want men's attention and women want men to be adored and they want to be adored. And we spend so much time trying to get your attention. And the fact of the matter is, like, we don't really understand the cues sometimes. I grew up with a complete wrong idea of how to get your attention.

And it's just interesting to me. I have found a totally different love and adoration for men in this part of my life where I'm not seeking their sexual attention because I get a totally different version. I get a much, like, because I'm, but it's the signals that I'm setting. The men haven't changed, but I changed. I grew up with two sisters, and I say this all the time. Like my advice to them was always like if you're interested in someone, like, don't show so much interest all the time because,

because, yeah, like, and I also think that, you know, we are wired, I think, as men,

like we really enjoy the pursuit and the chase. And like, in a little bit of denial is not the worst, right? I think it's just like how we're wired of it. Like, one more, more than,

ignoring me for 10, 15 years. And also, you don't have to play games. Like, you can just be straightforward. You don't, you can just say, hey,

are you, do you want to hang out on Friday? And if they say no, great. Like, like, don't, like,

don't, like, Don't overthink it, too. I think there's a lot of, like, game playing. And I think that also enters into it. Yeah. And like, okay, I'm going to wait two days to call them. And then I'm going to see if you text me. And I'm like, oh, my God.

Like, just either. If you want to see someone to be like, oh, hey, do you want to do something on Friday? Like, also, I think sometimes men appreciate it when you're just like straightforward and not like, oh, waiting for them to call and by the phone. Oh, well, what are you doing? It's like, oh, God. It's exhausting. Yeah, we're kind of like just big dub animals.

We're like, I don't like the game's being played and we don't know that the game is. I know. I know. We're like over here playing some game and like we're the only ones. It's over-complicating it. Yeah, like Lauren's like, you know, she always used to tell me, oh, I played this game with you. I'm like, I don't, I was not aware of a game. My game works. I don't even know the sport is happening.

I admit it. I love a game. I love a game. I still play games 10 years in. Did you know that? Ignore his call. Here's a thing. Wait, do you really?

Yeah, all the time. Did you know that she does that? Yeah, but why I don't, why I'm so confident in the relationship with my wife. is I'm sure she has endless options and possibilities. Glad you know it. But I look at her and I'm like, let's find the poor motherfucker that can go and deal with this shit all the time. Good luck, Lauren. You guys are so.

I love, you guys are so sweet. That guy would last or that girl would last three days. The games would start happening. No one could deal with you either. You really ignore his calls all the time. I ignore texts. She does with me all time. be ax up, I block him. I play games all the time. She will block me. Wow.

Yep. Oh my God. I love you even. Wow. And you're still, you don't, do you do it to her? No. No, but like, but I mean, I don't know. I think like it doesn't offend me and I don't care and I know where I stand with my. Yeah, and I like, so I was explaining it to Wolf yesterday. I fell in love with the person that my wife is and that's who I desire and find exciting. And I wouldn't want to, her to not be that. And when people comment like, oh, I wouldn't do this. And I'm like, well, that's fine for you. That's your relationship. That's your like, good luck. Like, I don't know. I think the thing of successful relationship is, and again, why I don't think it's good to invite everybody else in is what works in a relationship should that should just be applied to that

relationship. Totally. What do you guys fight about the most? Me being late, time management, his impatience. Wow. Do you agree with this so far? I could be impatient. Blunt list is delivery. My delivery can be blunt. The delivery. The delivery needs a softer landing. I grew up with a half Japanese mother. My grandma's full Japanese.

Really? You don't look like you have any Japanese in you at all. Yeah, I know. It's a, I'm a bunch of stuff. But there was no like tenderness around the delivery, if that makes sense. No, believe me. I work with someone who's Korean and we joke about it all the time because the things that come out of her mouth, she's like, it's my mother. I just can't help it.

It's my mother. And it's the cutest thing. And I adore her, but it's funny. Her delivery is like, blah, blah, blah, blah. It's like, well, it's just very direct and there is no like sort of sugarcoating anything. And here I am like adding 75 words to like make something land softer. And she's like, what? I have not learned the art of kind of not sharing exactly how I feel.

No, day. He'll learn. It'll be as well. When you go from doing what you did at J.Crew to being the entrepreneur. And I think you were an entrepreneur within J.Crew. But I think now you're like really like letting your personality. Fly with Lovestein. What was that like?

Was that a transition? I mean, in so many ways. And I think I have stumbled and gotten up and stumbled and gotten up. I mean, I think, you know, I went from having corporate life and structure and sort of a real rhythm. And I knew where, you know, I knew who to call for everything. And everyone picked up my phone call. And when I asked for something to get, like, you know, I could, I was, you know, had a

very big job. And I was moving a lot of different parts. And I went from having like a tiny team, no one to change the toilet paper in the bathroom, like who's in charge of the Con Edison bill. Is that me? You know, like little things like filing up for a patent. And, you know, I was really my fish out of water also fundraising, like things that I just never done before. And so it's been hard. I will not lie.

Like it's been, you know, I went from having three assistants and people who worked in the PR and handled everything for me. And all of a sudden I didn't have anyone taking care of me. And I. How big was your team at J. Crew when you were at the height of. it. I, my team was 870 something. And you have to understand Michael, like she was responsible. I'm just going to brag for you for a second of getting J. Cruz pieces on some of the biggest, like, amazing celebrity. I'm aware of my research. Like, yeah, like it was like you, you had this finesse about you of not only to create these beautiful pieces, but then to, like you said, get them on the right people in the right

spaces. It's almost like you were influencer marketing before influencer marketing was a thing. Well, the thing I think people don't totally understand is that J.Crew was three brands. So it's J. Crew made well in factory. So I had three different design teams, three different marketing teams. It was massive. So I was the president of over all three of those. So it was just a massive job. And I was spending, I mean, my schedule was from 8.30 and went to 6 o'clock, no breaks. and then I would go home and then I would be on the phone again. It was just constant. So I was exhausted all the time.

And I think, you know, I didn't stop to like actually be creative. I think I was literally just was talking to someone this morning about this. It's like I never had any time to be creative. And it's just why I left. I think that that's the biggest difference in my life now is like I get to be creative in a way that I haven't in a really long time. It's so much better. You like it better. I'm much happier now.

Yeah. It's so interesting that you go from having a team of 800 with three assistants and all the things that check all the boxes that society thinks we need to check to doing it on your own terms, how you want it. Maybe it's a smaller operation, but you just have space and time in your calendar to be creative and fluid. It makes you happier. Less is more. Yeah. I had exactly. And I think, you know, we talked earlier about like what, what is success, someone being successful. And I, what I labeled a success back then versus. now is completely different. You know, I don't have a corner office. I don't have, you know, all of the trappings. I don't get huge bonuses, but I literally can have a conversation and look someone in the eye and hear what they say and remember it later. And I can go to breakfast this morning and come here and do this podcast and I'll go home and I'll walk. I might stop in a store on the way home and I'll grab a coffee and I'll get to wander a little bit. And I don't have that

kind of like treadmill vibe to my life, which it was soul crushing. I was exhausted. It's a relief. Oh my God, so much. So I literally just saw one of the people this morning on my way here. I ran into a girl who used to work there and she just left. And she was like practically into her. She's like, I am so excited to like have free time and to have my life back. And it's true.

It's like working in a corporate job. It's like intense. Have you ever worked in a corporate environment? I've never worked in a corporate environment. I've always wanted to work for myself. I don't think I would be very good at being told. What I've always wondered. When you reach that level, I guess, or those heights in a corporate environment,

and then now you're doing what you're doing now as an entrepreneur, which environment is more stressful? Because I... Oh, that one is way more stressful. The corporate environment. Oh, my God. I mean, it doesn't mean I don't have stresses now, but that... The hard part is, like, now, like, in the relationship to it is, like,

I get to look at every single decision and understand it fully. And I don't have to go and ask 8 million people how to fix something. something. If I believe something is the right idea, I can sit with it and it's my own and I move forward or I don't. There, what's challenging is if I may believe that this is the right way to go, but now I have to bring all these other people along with me. And if they don't see, if we're not seeing eye to eye, it's just a, it's like a horn lock. And then where do you go from that? And then you have all these people looking at you, wanting you to, you know, you're, you've so much, there's so much riding on every decision. There's so many people whose lives

you're responsible for. There's so many people on your team who are, don't like their boss, think they should get more money, want to raise, just had a baby, can't find a nanny. Like there's just so much complication to all of the staffing that those things become bigger than like anything else. And it's so hard. It's one of the main reasons like when we ever talk about business that I caution people against actually running a business they really want it because what they, I think people focus on the product or the revenue or the service or the things. But what I say is when you become responsible for other people's well-being and they're looking to you to make smart decisions so that their life is not impacted in a negative way, that's the type

of stuff. Like managing a business, I'm sure, as you know, during the pandemic, which- And listen, there's always difficult times, but what I, like, I could not make a bunch of selfish decisions that would only impact. Like, every decision is going to have an impact on someone else's life. And I think that's the stress that people don't talk about enough, whether it's in a corporate environment or an entrepreneur. Like when you're somebody working in a system, like you're thinking about, of course, the team, but it's mostly like your well-being. When you're responsible for a lot of people, that is different than being responsible for even like the revenue or the dollars. It's just a whole thing. It's so intense. And the thing is if you're,

if you've worked in an environment, any kind of environment where you actually have a creative endeavor, you know that team is everything. You are nothing without the people who you work with. The quality of what you do has everything to do with the quality of the people that are on your team. And so then you care about them. And then you really get drawn in and sucked into whatever problem is happening. And it could be, you know, I've, listen, I've had every myriad of problems you could possibly imagine. And it's, you know, it's so, it takes so much emotional energy. And it takes it away from the rest of your life. Whatever emotional energy goes into your job, I find it was draining my emotional energy at home. And it was, it was really hard. I don't think I could, I don't,

I don't see myself ever going back to that type of role because I, I just don't think I want to live my life that way anymore. Where can everyone find you, support what you're doing, Pimp yourself out? You can find me at Jenna Lyons, NYC, or at love scene.com. Thank you for coming on. You can come back anytime. Seriously, because I could have talked to you about a hundred different things. Same. I think you guys are awesome. And I'm so, like enamored by your relationship. It's so nice to see. I'm like really attached by it. I go and sob in the bathroom after every show. Please do. Very nice. Thank you. Thanks for coming on.