The Bossticks - Jenny Mollen On Mom Guilt, Threesomes, Couples Therapy, & Narcissists

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Starting point is 00:01:50 Skinny at checkout. That's Sakara, S-A-A-R-A-com slash skinny, and you get 20% off your first order. Sikara.com slash Skinny. She's a lifestyle blogger extraordinaire. Fantastic. And he's a serial entrepreneur. A very smart cookie. And now Lauren Everts and Michael Bostic are bringing you alone for the ride. Get ready for some major realness. Welcome to the Skinny Confidential, him and her. I mean, I was with a writer for a long time before Jason. You know, so the way I met him was that we, they gave me these audition tapes. I was auditioning for this movie and one of the guys was trying to sleep with my sister. So he said to me, do you want to see the tapes?

Starting point is 00:02:34 You want to see the other girls you're up against. And he's like, while you're at it, I want to show you the two guys were choosing between. One is this guy, whoever it was, and the other guy is Jason Biggs. And instantly, like, the hairs on the back of my back went up where I'm like, Jason Biggs, fuck him, he's famous. I'm not famous. Like, give it to the underdog. Why would I want this guy to get more success in life? Like, I was already pissed.

Starting point is 00:02:58 So then we ended up in Boston together for three months doing the movie. And then we were married six months after that. Welcome back, everybody. Welcome back to the Skinny Confidential Him and Her Show. That clip was from our guest of the show today, Jenny Mullen. And today we're covering a lot of ground once again. Quick reminder for everybody that's tuning in right now. our YouTube is up. It's functional. It's thriving. It's kicking ass. All full-linked videos, current episodes and future episodes will be there. We're also going to go back into the archives and get some old episodes that just crushed. Put them up there for you to see. Just go to the skinny confidential YouTube and check out all of the episodes full-length. You can now watch them all. Enjoy. Jenny Mullen, I am so excited. I am a huge book nerd. Michael knows this about me. I think it's one of the things that really unites Michael and I. We both love to read. So whenever we have an author on the

Starting point is 00:03:48 podcast, I really geek out. And Jenny's someone who I have read her books forever. She has so many good ones. You have to go check them all out on Amazon. And so to have her in the flesh and be able to ask her about some of these funny stories was so fun and so iconic. We were laughing the whole time. She is hysterical. You also might know her husband, Jason Biggs. We know him from so many different shows, including American Pie, which was like all the rage when we were in high school. She's a writer, an actor, an Instagram personality, a mom, a wife, a New York Times bestselling author, I mean, she really does it all. She's also very self-deprecating, honest, and real. And I personally took a lot out of this episode. On that note, Jenny Mullen, welcome to the

Starting point is 00:04:32 Skinny Confidential Him and Her podcast. This is the Skinny Confidential Him and Her. I cannot get into this podcast without asking you this question first. You got to tell us the threesome story. I know you've probably told it. a hundred times, but you got to tell it for Michael in the audience. Oh my gosh. I mean, I haven't told us for in years. I don't really... Where do you even begin?

Starting point is 00:04:57 We're getting right into it. It was years ago. I mean, I hope it's not too played out. But basically, it was Jason's... What was it? It was the first year we were married. It was his birthday. And I think I was just going through a lot,

Starting point is 00:05:13 having, you know, kind of become a wife so quickly. and being in this committed relationship. And part of me felt like, am I going to be fun ever again? Am I still exciting? What can I do that's different? What kind of birthday gift can I give him that? I don't know, raises an eyebrow.

Starting point is 00:05:33 And so I decided, I was like, I'm going to get a hooker. I'm going to hire a hooker. And so I was in L.A., I mean, it's so long since I've even thought about this, I was in L.A. and I called my friend Chelsea Handler, who of course has access to everything, all sorts of contraband, including hookers. I said, I need to find a girl that will, like, come over to the house and, like, have sex with us. And she's like, okay, she gave me the

Starting point is 00:05:59 number of, like, this massage therapist. And the massage therapist came over and I remember, like, getting into lingerie and trying to be, like, really cute for her. And she was just so professional. It was, like, very offensive. Like, how professional? Like, too professional. She was, like, talking about, like, came over a little. Like my rotator cuff and I was like, when does she like make a move on me? Nothing's happening. And then she was talking about how like offensive it is that like people think that she would be a hooker. And I'm just getting more and more pissed.

Starting point is 00:06:26 And does your husband, is your husband there? He was downstairs. First I thought like that we would hook up and then like I could like call him in. You know, I don't know how I thought I'd play it. But anyway, she ends up like pitching us this pilot idea for Jason and the whole thing just gets terrible. And I call Chelsea. I'm like, the girl like did not even make a move on me. She did not even try to have sex with us.

Starting point is 00:06:47 And Chelsea's laughing and laughing. And she's like, well, that's weird because, like, she totally, you know, has had sex with other friends. And I'm just like, what's wrong with us? So then we were going to Vegas the next week. It was our friend's birthday. And I was determined to find a hooker in Vegas. So I was looking on this app. I hired this girl.

Starting point is 00:07:08 She came over. She looked nothing like her picture. When she walked in, she's like, you know, she had said it was going to be $500. and I gave her the $500. And then she looked at me and she's like, well, that was just a walk in the door. It's going to be extra if you want me to do anything. And then I didn't have any more cash on me. So I'm like, Jason, well, we have to like, let's go to the ATM.

Starting point is 00:07:27 Let's get more cash out. We'll come back. We'll be right back. And Jason didn't want to leave her there. So I had to stay with her while she was like, you know, scheduling her manicure and not at all interested. And he goes downstairs. He's like, well, it won't work. The ATM won't let me take more cash out.

Starting point is 00:07:43 And so then I'm like, you know, like, Jason, you totally embarrassed me in front of the hooker. Now she thinks we can't afford her. Like, this is just all going wrong. And so we're like, can you take a rain check? Could you come back? And she's like, well, just call me if you guys get more money. So she leaves.

Starting point is 00:07:56 With the 500, though. With the 500. But I never saw again. Yeah. And then we call, so then we call another girl because Jason's like, I'm not even attracted to that girl. Like she looks like a little lily pucian. Like, you know, the little people that like tie you up like in Gulliver's travels.

Starting point is 00:08:11 Look, let me tell you something here. Do you know what I got there? She was like, she's like, she was this glamazons. When she came, she was literally like the size of this table. So he was just not going well. So then Jason ended up calling one of his friends who sent another girl over.

Starting point is 00:08:25 When she got over, she's like, I'm not into girls. But like, I could go home and get my toys and use them on you. And I'm like, I don't want you to use your toys. Why would I want her toys used on me?

Starting point is 00:08:37 Like that was, it was just all bad. So then I went to the mini bar and was like eating chips. And like she was went down on Jason and then she asked me if I wanted to go down on him. But like why would I want to that's why I'm paying her. Like what would be the fucking. Let me tell you what I got. Hold on.

Starting point is 00:08:50 Are you eating chips while your while you're. Yes. And then he was like, are you watching because he's like this is not hot. Well, let me tell you what I got from my first birthday when we were after we were made. I think I got a scrapbook of that she made of herself. So it's just a book of me to look at.

Starting point is 00:09:05 I gave you I gave you. I gave you Hershey syrup situation. Yeah, but not for my birthday. No, this is. This was, this is very, this is far removed. Okay, well, next time I'll take you to eat chips in Vegas while you get a blowjob from someone that you don't find attractive. I need to make a scrapbook of like pictures of me that Jason can release in the event that I go missing. Like pre-approved photos.

Starting point is 00:09:27 Cute. So that he's not choosing them because he would. Can you imagine? Can you even imagine the photos your husband would release? Any photo on my husband's phone needs to be burned and destroyed. It's disgusting. Send me a photo. I'm like, how did you even get that angle?

Starting point is 00:09:40 Like, how is this even like, what position were you in? Like the worst light I've ever seen like my note. Like, I've never seen anything like. I agree. Okay, so you're eating chips. Yeah. Watching her go down on your husband at the same room or you're downstairs. No, I was just there with them.

Starting point is 00:09:56 Okay, so is that weird to watch another girl go down on your husband or is it kind of hot? No, it was like boring. I mean, it wasn't as exciting as I wanted it to be. Because in your mind, you think it's exciting. Do you think the chips distracted from the situation? She's like, do you want to eat me out? And I'm like, no, I'm eating these now. It's too late.

Starting point is 00:10:13 Like, no. Yeah, I feel like the chips are what maybe threw everything off because I would find that very distracted. It was thrown from the beginning, I think. Like, truly was not a good idea on my part. I could have like, I should have been like taking like a more like sexual approach. But I was just then like in the business of like making the caper happen. Can I ask you one very important detail?

Starting point is 00:10:33 Yes. What kind of chips were they? Oh my God. They were like, you know, kettle chips. The ones that come in every mini box. So he's sitting there getting blown and you're just like crunch. Because kettle chips are crunchy as hell. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:10:43 Oh, I don't know. Wait. So did he like it or no? Is he like? No. He was just like, why did this happen to me? So if you were to go, if someone's listening and they want to plan a threesome for their significant other, the takeaway is that like you really, you really have to plan it. Like you have to plan it.

Starting point is 00:11:01 You really need to plan it out. And you need to know that the girl. See, like I was very offended. I was like, why would you want to hook up with him and not me? Like then I got into a competitive thing. with my husband, whereas, like, I felt like I was really bringing something to the table for her, and she did not. I would, that's how I would feel, too.

Starting point is 00:11:19 I mean, I was so offended. So it was hard. So what's the goodbye like? She told us some stories of other people that she had worked with, and those were interesting. And then the goodbye was just sort of, yeah, she took her money and left. I wonder if she's still in the business. Isn't that breaking patient confidentiality?

Starting point is 00:11:39 She's allowed to just like blab on about people. Oh my God. She told us everything. What do you think she's saying about you guys now? I'm in the chips. I'm in a book now. These fucking idiots. Now we're talking about a podcast.

Starting point is 00:11:50 Yeah. As your Instagram grows and grows, she's like, shit, I should have hooked up with her wrong twice. No, my Instagram is just all like to make her fall in love with me. It's like, really you're missing this. Since that birthday gift, what have you given your husband that's been special? How do you top that? God. Now for his birthdays. No, now we just like take trips, like eating trips. He likes to eat. So we go,

Starting point is 00:12:14 we go places to try different foods. Your kids like to eat too. Yes. One more than the other, but yes. You have like, you guys have to go see her Instagram, dictator lunch. Dictator lunches or dictator lunches. Yeah, dictator lunches. Okay. How did you like come up with this idea? Because it's genius. Because they really are dictators. They don't eat anything. I'll make a five course, not really, but like my kind of five course meals. Yes. And she doesn't eat it. Yeah, totally. I know.

Starting point is 00:12:42 Like, what do you do? Well, you know, it started with just like, I was just trying to entertain myself, but I would send him to school with, you know, you had to send lunch to school with the kids when they were in preschool. And I felt like, you know, how you are as a parent is always kind of a reaction to like whatever kind of parent you had. And since, like, I didn't really have parents, I feel like I'm. making up for that with, I needed to send them with these movable feasts. It couldn't just be

Starting point is 00:13:10 a P, B, and J and, like, a bag of carrots. I wanted to just, like, give them this bounty because it was sort of, for me, a way of sublimating my own guilt, being a working mom. It was a way for me to, like, have constancy with them, even when I wasn't around, and, like, a dialogue almost. So they would open the box and be entertained and feel, you know, kind of that I was with them even when I couldn't be. And it started off where I would just, I would send, I don't know, like, you know, I sent like a Chinese bow bun and then instructions for the teacher on how to like restim it in her microwave. And they kept getting more and more pissed off. But like the thing with me is like then when people get mad, it really just encourages me to go further. So then I was like, oh really? She thought that was

Starting point is 00:13:58 fucked up that I'm going to send fondue with like a little like, you know, little skewers and and meats and cheeses and little bread pieces and she has to like reheat the cheese for him. We got yelled at the other day for sending too many sliced strawberries. Yeah. Is the teacher yelling at you? Oh yeah. I was brought in and they told me I couldn't send the pit in the avocado

Starting point is 00:14:17 that they didn't want to take the pit out. And I was like, how hard is that? You should have sent it live chicken. I really should have said like honestly like a lobster tank and they have to take the lobster out. That would have been amazing. So I want to go back with you for a second because we were talking a little off air before we started

Starting point is 00:14:33 the show. Yeah. And you just alluded to it. You basically saying you didn't have parents. I want to understand how you grew up because you said your sister was basically where we grew up in San Diego. Yes. And you were in Arizona. What was your childhood like? My childhood was like, did you ever see the movie Mermaids with Cher? Yeah, I love that movie. That was my childhood. I can't remember. Any more context? Yeah. I basically had a mom that like was my kid who, you know, at 12 told me I came back from being at like an aunt's house for the summer and she was living on some boat. And she's like, you know, I don't really know how to be a mom anymore. So you need to go live with your dad. So at 12, we went to live with my dad. And then my sister, you know, didn't want to

Starting point is 00:15:13 stay there. So we moved back to my mom's for a year. And then she sent us back to my dad's. And I, you know, I'd always been bopping around because my mom would get married over and over again to different people. And we'd live in different states and houses and what have you. And yeah, I just realized, I think at some point, it dawned on me that, like, if I ever wanted to be a lot of you, that like, if I ever to go to a good college, I sort of needed to be in the same school for more than a year. And I decided to stay with my dad when my sister went back. So when your mom's marrying all these different guys, did you meet all of these different characters? Are they nice? Yes. Uh, yeah, you know, it's weird. I'm always, I was just saying this still be on the way here. We drove past this spa,

Starting point is 00:15:55 like, where I was actually like molested before the pandemic. It's a long story. Not a big deal because I was 40, guys. It's not like the biggest deal. But, I was like, I can't believe I made it to 40. Like, that's kind of crazy. But it just shows you that no woman is safe in the world. But the fact that I made it to 40 with the childhood that I had is fucking crazy. Because there was no safety. There was nobody watching.

Starting point is 00:16:15 There was no nothing. Like just chaos. Chaos. Chaos. Chaos. There's no supervision whatsoever. No. And we were like brought to bars.

Starting point is 00:16:24 I mean, it was just like was all really insane. And was your dad a stable character? My dad's stable. Yeah. My dad's like a, you know, he's like a workaholic. definitely, yeah, more stable than my mom, for sure, for sure. I mean, she's my muse. Like, she provided me with amazing content, but it was not like a maternal. There was no maternal. Like, when I had kids, it was weird, you know, I almost had to like check myself because this idea of like,

Starting point is 00:16:51 oh, wait, he wants to be like kiss him before I leave the house. It wasn't that I didn't want to kiss him. It was like it didn't occur to me. You know, I had to, my son has taught me so much about, attachment in general because I didn't have that. And I think that like my second book is really all about this idea of like, how could I be the mom I always wanted when I didn't have the mom I was wanted? So stepping into that role is just crazy when you have mommy issues. I also think that that when you do have a chaotic childhood and like you said, you become a mom, the child does sort of, like you said, have to teach you what to do. Yes. It's a weird dynamic when you go on Instagram. and you see all these mothers that are so maternal and it's so natural.

Starting point is 00:17:36 Yeah, right. And it's so this. And then you're like, wait, I've kind of had to learn this as I go. Yes. And sometimes it could take two years. I mean, more. Yeah. Well, I don't even know that they know.

Starting point is 00:17:47 I just think that the performance online is another interesting situation because there you have, it's almost like we are allowed to almost create the mythology of our own motherhood. Right. So you almost use it as like a Pinterest board where you're like, look, I checked off all the box. I have the picture of my son in the pumpkin patch. I have the picture of the birthday party with the cake I made. I'm winning. I'm not my mom. I'm doing it right. And so it's like it, it almost, it suits you in a way, but you can't help. But then, you know, compare yourself and hold your motherhood up against other people's motherhood and feel like, you know, simultaneously superior and

Starting point is 00:18:23 inadequate at the same time. I mean, it's a mind fuck. It's a mind fuck. And it's also constant guilt. I feel constant guilt. Yes. I feel and I work like you. Like yeah, if I don't work, I would be miserable. Yes, me too. Not to work. Yes.

Starting point is 00:18:41 So I work, but then I feel guilty that I work. Yes. And then when I'm home and I have to be on my phone, I feel guilty on my phone. And then when I... Did you have a parent that work? Both my parents were working. So I had this conversation with Katie Crook where I said to her, I was like, how did you feel always having to be? Like, you know, she's reporting on 9-11.

Starting point is 00:18:57 She's always like in it. Like, how did you? did you feel as a mom? And I said, did you feel guilty? She's like, no, I didn't feel, what do you mean? I didn't feel guilty. And that's when the moment it dawned on me that like, oh, my God, it's so different for our generation because we are also the product of moms who worked. So it's like, we want all of these things. We have all of this ambition. But we're also, we have the trauma of a kid whose mom always worked. So we're, we're so torn. We're constantly feeling guilt. Every choice we make is, you know, in favor of one thing over the other. And I think that's just so hard.

Starting point is 00:19:33 But what do you do? I think about this all the time. I'm like, and I ask him, I go, do you feel guilt? Yeah. No. He goes, no. No. He doesn't feel guilt. I'm like, you don't feel guilt that we have to like, like, leave and we can't be home to put her to bed. No, he doesn't feel guilt. Well, yeah, because a dad that shows up at all is like lauded and praised. And they're like, what? You were able to put your kid to bed? You bathed your child? You know, it's like you're a superhero. But if you're a mom, it's just like, there's that double standard. But I also look at it as like, okay, well, like, I don't feel guilty because we're working and like, that's why they're living in like the house, right?

Starting point is 00:20:06 You know, like we, I don't see the option to not. But here's my thing, which is so wild. Everyone says to me, oh, do you have help? Do you have a nanny? Yeah. No one says that to him. And we work the exact same amount. How does that work?

Starting point is 00:20:21 We work the exact same amount. Yeah. And no one says that to him. I would say, though, Lauren. It is mostly women that are saying that to you. Hold on, hold on. It's mostly women saying that to you. I don't know any of my friends ever said.

Starting point is 00:20:32 I'm fine if people ask me that. But it's the fact that no one ever asks the male. No. Never. Never. Because women are expected to do everything and be everything all at once. I'm getting aggressive. I didn't make the rules here, all right?

Starting point is 00:20:47 I just kind of go by and, you know. So now with your mother and your father, are you able to step back and see a different perspective. Do you still feel like you have some sort of resentment towards them? What is that relationship like now? And does your sister have the same relationship that you have? Or is it a different perspective? My sister, I think, yeah, like, I think you're never the same parent. You're never the same parent to two children. Like you're, she had a different experience of my mother than I did. I think I detached at a younger age and probably just like coped with it in a different way. my sister, I think, feels more protective

Starting point is 00:21:25 and an obligation to take care of my mom. But I think that for me, it's like there is, and you guys are catching me, I just came off of two hours worth of couples therapy. So it's like, I'm really raw right now. Perfect. Come on, come on down. Really raw right now. Perfect podcast.

Starting point is 00:21:39 But it's this idea with me, the anger for me, I think, comes from feeling like, I don't want to even tell you what I, about my injury. because in telling you my injury, you get injured and now I have to take care of you again. Like, that's what I don't like. What do you mean? Explain that again.

Starting point is 00:21:58 Telling your parent the injury. I think when you tell a narcissist that, like, they've hurt you, they're instantly wounded. And then you find yourself in that codependent dance of having to take care of their injury instead of ever getting your own need met. Whoa. So it's fucked up. And also the defensiveness of a narcissist almost makes it not worth it because it sucks your energy so bad that you have no energy for anything else for the rest of the week.

Starting point is 00:22:24 Well, yeah, it's like, you know, feed me and I'll feed you. Yeah. Yeah. And let me take your clothes and your food and cut your hair off and throw you in the gutter. Totally. So looking back on your childhood, but Instagram is also such a narcissist because it's like you want the light shined on you, then you need to keep feeding me. And if you stop feeding me, then the light goes out. And there is nothing better than having a narcissist shine their light on you. You're right. You're right. We had someone on this podcast that like really dissected narcissists and they said, I said, what do you do if you have one in your family or a friend? The whole practice of studying narcissists. No, one of them said you put them on stage. Oh, interesting. All you do. You put them on stage.

Starting point is 00:23:08 Don't try to. Never going to get through. There's nothing you can do, they said. Well, Shamu will like pull you down by the brain. If you don't just keep feeding Shamoo fish, it's like you're going to be the trainer that gets like taken under. So you have to just keep giving them what they want. They say it was bad or completely detached. There was like no other. Or detach. Yeah. It seems like though you've made a purposeful effort to separate your childhood from being a mother to me. It seems like you've done a lot of work. Yes. I mean, I've done a lot of work. Yeah. I'm definitely not. I'm a different type of parent for sure. For sure. So how do you do that? And I'm curious for my own my own life actually. Like how do you separate your childhood?

Starting point is 00:23:50 Well, I think we all sort of project onto our kids. You're like, oh, my God, they're going to have this issue and that issue. And yeah, it's just different. They're living, they have such, you know, first of all, like Jason is such a different, like, co-parent than, you know. I mean, I, the dynamic in our house is just drastically different than the dynamic I grew up with. And I think that you, as long as you're self-reflective and you're like looking at, it yourself and your part and like your triggers, I think that you inevitably become a different parent. You know, I think that why I did dictator lunches was because I was trying to almost

Starting point is 00:24:27 give myself this corrective experience, right? Like, it wasn't that Sid wanted these fancy lunches. It was more that I was like, this is what I always wanted. And the fact that he doesn't give a shit about them kind of means that I won, you know? You're very, very self-aware and you're very self-aware in your books. Have you always been like that? Or is that something that's developed over time. No, I think I've always been forced to have to like kind of look at my part in things, you know? I don't like comedy where somebody isn't like taking the biggest like jobs at themselves. You're self-deprecating. Yeah. And I think you, I think that's my favorite type of comedy. It's relatable. Yeah. And I also just like, I want to be vulnerable. Otherwise, there's like no point.

Starting point is 00:25:08 Who's funnier? You or Jason? I think that I am. I think that you are too. I don't know what if you would agree with me, but sorry. Hearing we say that. You mentioned couples therapy. Do you recommend that to everyone? Is that something? Tell me about that. Well, we've been in therapy since before we met.

Starting point is 00:25:29 You could talk to him. Oh, yeah, since before we, since before we, not before we met, since we, before we were married. Take notes, Michael. How, when did you guys meet and how? We did a movie together and we were, it was in. 2007. Okay. We were in therapy before we were even married. Yeah, right away. And we were married within nine months of knowing each other. Wow. So it all happened very fast. And when you go to therapy

Starting point is 00:26:00 before you're married, is the problems totally different that not, I don't even want to say problems. Is the talking points different now? No. That's the funniest thing. No, it's like you're in your defenses. I'm in mind. Like, you're, you, you, you think I'm your mother. I think you're my mother. Like, I'm dealing with family of origin ship, but you're taking it personally because you feel like I'm saying that you're wrong or you're bad and that's your trigger. And so just like it ping pongs back and forth. Does he have a similar or different upbringing? Different, but we were both like the codependent in our homes. Okay. So different. Definitely different. If there's one thing in my life right now that I can't possibly live without.

Starting point is 00:26:48 You think I'm going to say my wife? You think I'm going to say my kids? No, it's athletic greens, better known as AG1. This has become an absolute staple in my health routine. Right now, Lauren and I are in L.A. We're batching a bunch of episodes, recording, catching up with the team here at Dear Media in the West Hollywood office. And the first thing I packed before my underwear, before my socks,

Starting point is 00:27:06 before my shoes was my travel packs of athletic greens. Here's the thing. We've been talking about this forever. It is such a crucial staple in my health routine. Now I wake up every morning, have a big glass of, of water, dump a bunch of athletic greens in there. We have the travel packs. We have the big bag. We have this stuff everywhere. And here's the reason

Starting point is 00:27:22 why I love it so much. If you want to get all your daily nutritional value, all your vitamins, all your nutrients, all your greens, your adaptogens, your prebiotic, your postbiotic, all in one place in one scoop, it's athletic greens. It gives you the most bang for your buck when you're talking about supplements. And we talk about a lot of them on the show.

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Starting point is 00:32:18 When you guys are in therapy together, are there main themes or issues that you're both coming to the table trying to solve or is just like, hey, we want to talk about everything that's going on in our life? Yes. And I think that we're so similar. But the biggest issue for us is like, whose issue comes first? Whose dime is it? Is it, you know, like, I'm upset. I'm wounded because Jason wasn't listening to something I said. Oh, they never listen. And then I come to him and say, I'm mad, you weren't listening to me. And then he feels like, what did I do wrong? I wasn't even trying. You know, and it's like, who's going to go first? Do you need it to be about you right now? If you need it to be, if you need this one to be about you, let's make it about you.

Starting point is 00:32:56 We woke up this morning in the hotel Or can I make it about me? And I still don't know what she was upset about. I just know that I was ripped out of the bed and the curtains were ripped open. And I still, and I had no idea. I like to keep it guessing. And I said to her,

Starting point is 00:33:07 I said, is this something you're doing because like you just need, like you want to like spice things up or not because they're going to have the kids around us or did I actually do something? I just like to keep it like guessing. Like I don't like to keep it like too predictable.

Starting point is 00:33:20 Well, I think it's difficult because as a man, I think we're not as good at reading emotional cues. You don't say. And then that can I imagine could be frustrating because you're like, hey, I'm putting the signal out there. But to me, it's like you might as well be speaking Chinese. You guys are bad listeners. But even when we say I'm hurt, it's still sometimes hard to not hear it as you're bad.

Starting point is 00:33:41 Yeah. Of course. But if I's the same thing. If I'm, I'm, yeah, I think it's both ways. Yeah. Right? Yeah. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:33:48 And then you're like in a lock. Yeah. But one of you has to sidestep it and be like, I can make it about you right now. I don't need this. I know that when you. You're talking, you're talking about you. And when I'm talking, I'm only talking about me. So, that's the hard thing.

Starting point is 00:34:02 I think I might have something to solve this. Why can't you go first in one session and then he goes first in the other session? Because when you're in conflict, it's like, it's so hard to see that it's like not about you, that you feel like, oh my God, this person's pissed off at me and they're coming to me and they're mad. And I've done something wrong. And so you get into this dance of like, wait, if you just understood where I was coming from, If I can just explain myself and it's like, then you've taken the bait. Who gets to choose the therapist?

Starting point is 00:34:28 Is it a joint effort? Beth was recommended to us. I don't even know how we met Beth. Does she take sides? Sometimes when she needs to. She's so good if you guys are looking for someone. She's fucking great. I'm going to make you fly to New York every single time I need there.

Starting point is 00:34:41 She's in L.A. We do it on Zoom. Oh, you do it on Zoom? Is that as effective? Couples is effective on Zoom. Yeah. So are you guys sitting next to each other? On the bed.

Starting point is 00:34:52 Yeah. And she's literally in bed with us. Yeah. For sure. Does it work? Yeah. I mean, yes. So like if you have an issue that you want to address, do you write it down in your

Starting point is 00:35:05 notes app and like save it for later? Sometimes. But then I always find that like when I reread it, it does sound, it makes, it's more incriminating. I sound like the psycho. That's very A. Blinken. He used to be angry and write his letters and then put him in a drawer and then not send him because the point is like, like, you look, yeah, you're like, oh,

Starting point is 00:35:22 ship maybe like I, it's better I didn't send that thing. Right. Exactly. So you go back and you look at the notes and you're like, hey, I could let this one go. Or we'll like have like a texting fight after a fight and then we'll be referencing that. And it's like, let's just see. Wait, what did you say

Starting point is 00:35:38 you said? Oh, he pulls out the receipts. Yes. Sometimes. I might like this couple's therapy thing. I think that it's interesting. We've had all sorts of conversations. I think we've talked about this a lot and I think we're both open to the concept and the notion. But in our world, we've had difficulties like, who's the person?

Starting point is 00:35:57 How do you find and where do you go? I think that's the whole thing is. Oh, yeah. You just need to go to bath. She's amazing. She's amazing. Oh, my God. I like that.

Starting point is 00:36:04 I like that idea. How old is your daughter? Three. Three. We're in it. And I can't believe you guys I don't have a therapist. Three and eight months. Three and eight months.

Starting point is 00:36:12 Guys, I know. You're being triggered left and right. Like how? Well, how are you doing it? It's not, I mean, it's a lot of work having two kids under that's crazy people I'm just and I have help so I can't even imagine you know what though this is not a joke we do this eight times a month yeah we've done it for so long and I think in a way we get so much dialogue and conversation because it's not like just going to dinner like we sit with

Starting point is 00:36:37 people like yourself and sometimes doctors and sometimes we've had all sorts of therapists I think couples therapy wouldn't hurt a yeah I think you know what I mean I think if we didn't do something like this or we're talking where you're connecting yeah I think we're some trouble for Wow. What is your biggest parenting challenge? This was asked by the audience. Everyone wanted to know this one. My biggest challenge is balancing like work and parenting. You've got a lot going on. It's really hard to wear the different hats. And honestly for me to turn off work to actually like put it aside and know that it's the idea of something not being done drives me fucking crazy. And when you have a book, it's like it's not done for a long time. And even after it's out, it's still not done. It's hard to, like, get back into mom mode and be present in mom mode when, like, you're still spinning on work. I always ask writers this because I'm so curious, how do you manage your day to get a book done? Is it something that you do an hour in the morning?

Starting point is 00:37:35 Do you have, like, a schedule? Do you write when you feel compelled to write? When I was really in it, I mean, this last novel took me four years. So that was, like, a different beast altogether. But I was averaging a thousand words a day most of the time. I'd start working at nine and I'd stop at five. I mean, I really was pushing. Wow.

Starting point is 00:37:56 That's gnarly. It was a lot of writing. I've never heard a writer say that long. That's a long day. And I'd get bored and, you know, like forced myself back in. But, but I just don't like,

Starting point is 00:38:06 I don't like when stuff's like not done. I mean, that is crazy to write that long. That's a lot of books. It's weird right now because I don't have another book right now. And like to be floating and for the, this is like the first time since, 2013, I don't have like this looming deadline over me. I feel very untethered at the moment.

Starting point is 00:38:26 Well, you're probably getting content right now that you don't even know about for your next book. Yes. You know? Yes. Because I'm formulating a plan. And how do you come up with what you want to write about? Well, the third book was I knew it was going to be a novel because I knew I couldn't tell that story, couldn't tell that story as a memoir and not burn a lot of bridges. But it was a story that I had to tell. And I felt like it was a story that I had, I needed to hear.

Starting point is 00:38:54 So I needed to write it because I felt like I needed somebody to tell it to me. But nobody wanted the book. And it was like a horrible experience trying to sell it because pivoting from like memoir to fiction, especially like when you're kind of considered like in the celeb memoir space, just nobody was taking me seriously. And I had editors pass. that, you know, the second book, I had a bidding war.

Starting point is 00:39:17 And the third book, it was like, I don't know if in a post-COVID world, a book about wealthy white women in lower Manhattan doesn't read his tone deaf. And I just kept saying, like, guys, this is real. This is my truth. This is what's happening. And I know I can sell the fuck out of this book. And so it was a full-blown, like, I don't know, it was an uphill battle. It was not fun.

Starting point is 00:39:41 But, you know, it felt good to sort of overcome and get it out. to the world and have it be my best-selling book. So what is it like being a woman in Manhattan with two children? Yes. What is that like? It was interesting. It's like I don't know what it would have been like to be a mom in L.A. I can't imagine being like what are the differences, do you think?

Starting point is 00:40:04 In L.A., like the currency is fame, you know. So it's like it's all about like, who was at my playday? What pilot are you working on? It's like I felt like a doctor who lived at the hospital. I could never escape work. And because that's already hard for me, it was just like a terrible place for me to be. It's why we went to Texas, honestly, because like when we had kids or like, I didn't want that to be the currency for our children. No, it's so gross.

Starting point is 00:40:27 And I mean, I have tons of friends there who are doing it and probably great at it. But for me, I could not do it. And in New York, I felt like, oh, I'm on a giant cruise ship where, like, I can be a mom upstairs, fully a mom. And then I can go downstairs and I can be a writer. I can be like, you know, of whatever the fuck you want to call me. Like, I can get work done. I can, you know, still feel like a human being in the world and my identity hasn't just been, like, stripped of me.

Starting point is 00:40:54 Also, in L.A., I feel like you're kind of like either banished to suburbia where you're just like in your house, stuck with your kid, or you're like at a studio or, you know, office somewhere, writing, working all day and you don't see your child. So you can't have the same duality. And New York, I felt, was easier and more conducive for me. in that way to just like get more done. And I also think that New York, like, nobody cares what you do in New York. Nobody gives a shit.

Starting point is 00:41:21 Nobody cares. It's, it's an opportunistic underlying tone in L.A. compared to New York. It's, it's very different. The way I describe it. But it is like all like powerful, like hardworking, hungry people, which I love. It's almost like people who thought they were like the cutest in their high school went to L.A. and the people who are like the first born child who's like I must succeed at all costs

Starting point is 00:41:46 came to New York and is like I'm gonna found something I'm gonna like fucking hustle I want to work I want to make it happen at least of our generation like now this younger generation I don't think anybody wants to work but I do believe that like there's just different mentality

Starting point is 00:42:03 about like New York versus L.A. Yeah and again like we've California born and raised and still have an office in L and all that I think my issue, and this is not for everybody, but there is a large majority that it's more about what you do than who you are. And what you're doing in that moment. Yeah. And like, exactly. And so like when you describe yourself in L.A. or we found a lot of the time, it's like less about who you are as a person, what you believe, what you think.

Starting point is 00:42:30 It's more about like you describe yourself by what you do. And I think that's a very difficult way to interact with humans and also to raise children because I don't want to teach at least our kids. that their worth is based on what they do. I mostly want it to be about who they are. No, it's what you said is like you could be really multifaceted here. Like you can be all different kinds of things in the same day. Yeah. Which is awesome.

Starting point is 00:42:52 Like you're upstairs. You're a mom. Downstairs, you're a writer. You go down the street. You're an art. Like you mix it up. It's a bag of tricks. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:42:59 Yeah. Exactly. It's kind of liberating. It's liberating. And like when you know, you're still trying to keep up with this like, I don't know, idea that like women can have it all.

Starting point is 00:43:08 Which like, I don't really believe women can have it all. at least at the same time. New York gives you sort of a glimpse of like, maybe I could. There's this book that I think, could do it all. I just, I just, maybe we need to move here. I just read it. And I think I was listening to you talk. I think you both might like it. It's called 4,000 weeks. Have you heard of it? Yes. And it's like, people think it's a productivity book. Yeah. Which in ways it is, but it's basically points out that the most people only have 4,000 weeks on this planet. Yes. Like when you look at your time span like that, the whole point is realizing that to your point,

Starting point is 00:43:39 you can't have it all. Like anytime you decide to do something, you're sacrificing something else. And we try to cram it all in and it makes us feel bad because we think that time is something to be used as a tool, but time is something that's actually working against us. Completely. And the whole point is you have to make sacrifices and make choices. Completely. Like it completely shifted the way I think about a relationship with time and getting things done and having it all. It's like once you realize and make peace, like you really can't have it all because it's not possible from the time perspective.

Starting point is 00:44:04 Yeah. Then as soon as that you accept that, you're like, oh, okay, like it's easier to make choices in life. I think so too. I fully believe that. That's so true. Because we all go through and I think we get discouraged because I'm wasting time. I'm not being productive with my time. I don't have like. Yeah. And it's like this thing that's constantly working against you and we're trying to figure out the solve to basically own our time, but you can't. You can't. Right. And so it's interesting to think about because all of us are trying to be productive people. Yeah. But it's working against you. Fully. It's so annoying. Yeah. It's super annoying. How do you describe yourself? Like if someone's

Starting point is 00:44:39 Like there's, you do so many things. How would you describe yourself at a cocktail party? I say that like I'm like a comedian and a writer. It's just sort of like, I feel like vague enough. It sort of covers all the bases. I think that there's nothing more terrifying in my life than being a comedian. That is so much pressure like to have to get on stage and make people laugh. Harder than anything.

Starting point is 00:45:04 Harder than a musician. Yeah. Is this stand-up comic? I mean, that's a whole different thing. Yeah, but you do. You are very, like, on Instagram, I look at you as like a comedy account. Like, that's so sweet. You're essentially standing on stage on Instagram when you're doing it.

Starting point is 00:45:20 Yeah. Yeah. Or like when you're like hosting something, I feel like you are like, you have to really be ready. You have to be, is that natural or you have to work at it? No, I think that like, it depends. I think it's just something that like you're either in the habit of doing or not doing. I think that like with the comedy thing, it's like when I was on. Twitter, I used to just like think in like a hundred and whatever many characters or less.

Starting point is 00:45:44 It would just be like, that's a tweet, that's a tweet, that's a, you know, and you get good at it. And so it's, it's, you know, like anything. It's just when you're in practice, with writing as well, it's like I can get up to like 2,000 words a day if I'm like doing it all the time. But when I get out of it, then it's like, oh, God, I only made 800 words, you know. So it's just, yeah, the more you do it. I feel like people are thinking now in TikToks. probably probably and tic-tok is still something that's hard for me it's i mean it's hard it's it's i don't think it's like always and i'm like i have to do a dance i have to be in a trend well the problem is

Starting point is 00:46:22 is like these things in the way that they're rewarding now is they're rewarding like more frequency more abundance more yeah more because like you know everybody knows like on social these platforms aren't free because you're actually the product and yes and you as a writer you get paid for your book right Yeah. But on these platforms, you don't get paid anything and you're just feeding them content. They make money, right? Exactly. But it's like now it's rewarding in the sense that like all it's doing is saying you have to do more. You have to do or you only did two tweets. You got to do seven to get seen. Right. Exactly. Exactly. In this thing. And it just becomes, I think at some point you have to decide like where you're spending your time and energy. That's what I'm. But you know what? It's so hard to find somebody. Like I have gone through so many people looking for someone that wants to like work and do like social like digital. Somebody that wants to work period. For somebody that wants to work. For someone that wants to work. For. of all and like fucking doesn't ghost me after I'm like oh let's have an interview but but just like that would help you know kind of like support the digital side of it because it is a full time job wants to help if anyone's out there on TikTok you're looking for on TikTok yeah you guys I mean drop

Starting point is 00:47:24 in please guys seriously I'm desperate I'm nobody wants to do anything I told Sid I was like I'm gonna teach you how to edit I'm gonna buy you the nicest computer and he's like really I said yeah but then you're gonna work for me during COVID we changed our policy and the company to like, okay, it was always, you all work from home. Then after we came up, okay, three days a week, flexible. When I said, hey, we got to kind of get in here a little more because the world is like, we're back. It's up and running. It was almost a revolt. It was an uproar. I'm like, listen, I cannot afford to run a business without anybody working. Like, we need to get in here and do this. Isn't it crazy? Or else we don't have a company. I'm like, look,

Starting point is 00:47:56 I had to sit everyone down. And I like, listen, we got a powwow about this. And they're like, we've read 4,000 hours and fuck you. Exactly. And I'm like, listen, okay, well, the fast track there's forward. In six months, we're all out of work. We have to. We actually have to come together and do something that creates, you know, a valuable product or service to the world or else, what are we all doing? I'm curious, selfishly how you structure your time with everything that you have going on. Is there like a morning routine that you have, a nighttime routine, or do you just wake up and you're writing from nine to five and that's that? So I wake up. It depends on the day, you know, like if I know I have time to, like I was just writing this piece for Oprah.

Starting point is 00:48:34 So like I have to write that piece, you know? And when I'm doing that, I become pretty, like, obsessive. And that's when it's like, I'll work out because, you know, I grew up with, you know, my parents are also, like, incredibly vain. I grew up in a house where, like, I didn't realize everyone didn't have to, like, go home and get on the treadmill after school. My God. So, like, I do work out.

Starting point is 00:48:56 That is something that, like, keeps me sane. So I work out. And then with the, when I was writing the overpiece, it was like, I'm just sitting there, like sitting at the computer until my kids come. home writing. And Sylvia will come in and like, feed me something, spoon feed me. But then if I'm not on something, it's like, I'll wake up, I'll go work out, I'll probably try to figure out jokes that I'm going to post that day, you know, write some shit. And then, I don't know, go do a podcast, go, you know, kind of bop around like that. Then usually come back and like

Starting point is 00:49:33 tinker with something that like, you know, a proposal for something. Out of all the content that you post on your Instagram, what resonates the most that you see? Like, what are you, what are people like, that's relatable? Out of everything you post. Because you do post a lot of relatable content, especially to mothers. Yeah, right now, it's funny. It's like, I, because I came from Twitter where you could, like, write and sort of. That's where you started Twitter.

Starting point is 00:49:58 That's, like, really where, like, my writing career started. was like, I was just like an angry actress married to someone more famous than me. And like the rage sort of just like drove me to start doing comedy. Was there actual real rage that he was more famous than you? Yeah. Why? Because you wanted to be the famous. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:50:16 I was like, wait, wait, no. I get it. I'm like, I'm an overachiever and like this cannot be our dynamic. I'm not going to be the girl who takes your fucking cell phone photo with Jason Biggs. Did you guys start acting around the same time? Yeah. No, no. He's always like, Jenny.

Starting point is 00:50:30 like whenever I'm like, why aren't you more motivated? You know, because I'm always like on him about like, you need to call your agents. You know, because I'm a psychopath. And he's like, Jenny, I started working when I was five years old. I was on Broadway. I've been working what, 20 years longer than you. I'm good. Like I feel good about where I'm at in life.

Starting point is 00:50:48 And I'm just like still so hungry. So there's a different vibe between us. Do you know how when that, when that, because we were so young when American Pie came out, but that was like, do you know how at the time, how big of an. uproar that was that kids were sneaking into that movie. Yeah. Because that was like we were like 12 or 13 when that came out. Oh, that's so funny. That's right. Yeah. Remember the Delmar Highlands? Remember the Delmar Highlands? Yeah, of course. That's where we would sneak in there. He was trying to eat my pie in American pie. Oh, my God. So funny. It gave me the idea. Okay. So the dynamic is that you are both or is it both competitive or

Starting point is 00:51:24 you're competitive? Well, he's competitive, but like not to the extent. He's like, what have I ever done to you? He's not to support your career? Give you money. Give you children. Fucking what have I done? And I'm like, I. Bring up the blow drop from the hooker. I would use that against him.

Starting point is 00:51:40 See, I would do it. And then I'd be like, but you did get a blow job from a hooker. You did get a blow job from a hooker. See, I would even fall for that trap. Where's my blow job? I would turn a threesome down from Lauren because I think it's a trap. It's a trap. I think if I say yes and act excited, that it's a trap.

Starting point is 00:51:53 It's not a trap. It's not a trap. Yeah. See, that's a trap. That's a trap. So when you guys first started dating, you're saying people were coming up to you saying, can you take myself. They feel like, can you hold my baby so I can take a picture for Jason Biggs?

Starting point is 00:52:04 And so what do you do? You're horrified. Horrified. I didn't like it. I mean, you know, like I was 28 years old. I felt like I was, I felt like I had a lot going on. And then all of a sudden I'm with this guy that I'm fully eclipsed by. And it was maddening.

Starting point is 00:52:18 It was really, it made me crazy. But was that part of the allure that like he was in a comp, like when you guys first met, like, where you're like, oh, wow, he's in a comp, he understands the space and the career. And my, or no. No. No. I always wonder. That was the thing that, like, that was the drawback to him because he's very maternal and like he really did.

Starting point is 00:52:36 He was so, we connect on so many levels. But the fame really, I had such a problem with it. It bothered me, except when I wanted to get into a good restaurant, then I'm like, wait, you guys, you see an American pie, right? No, but I always, you know, because from an outside perspective, you see actors and actresses dating each other. And I always think is that, I wonder is that because it's relatable and they understand the world. they understand what it's like to be with somebody that is looked out. Like you walk into a restaurant. It's like, oh, there's the person, right?

Starting point is 00:53:06 Yeah. Yeah. And it's like it's almost, how do you say this? In the nice way. Like they're dating a normie. They like the normie who doesn't understand the world might like not be able to handle what you're describing right now, which is like they're overshadowed by this person's fame or attention.

Starting point is 00:53:23 I mean, I was with a writer for a long time before Jason. And so he was also in the business. So I don't know. I mean, it wasn't, it was just more like an actor felt like direct competition, even though he's a man and like totally not my competition. I would feel like that. But I was like, you know, so the way I met him was that we, they gave me these audition tapes. I was auditioning for this movie and one of the guys was trying to sleep with my sister. So he said to me, do you want to see the tapes?

Starting point is 00:53:48 You want to see the other girls you're up against. And like when you get to like a certain level, whatever, there's only like a handful of us. I knew all of these girls. And I was like, yeah, show me their fucking tapes. Let's see it, you know? And I'm sitting in my house just like feeling so smug and powerful. And he's like, while you're at it, I want to show you the two guys we're choosing between. One is this guy, whoever it was, and the other guy is Jason Biggs.

Starting point is 00:54:10 And instantly, like the hairs on the back of my, like, back went up where I'm like, Jason Biggs, that guy from American Pie. Like, fuck him. He's famous. I'm not famous. Like, give it to the underdog. Why would I want this guy to get more success in life? Like, I was already pissed. And then that's the

Starting point is 00:54:30 You weren't excited Like hey this is the guy And I get to be And I get to act No I was because I didn't know I was cast yet And I was still like Okay

Starting point is 00:54:37 Ew no I don't Give it to the other guy That poor struggling actor Like he deserves it And then I watched the tapes And Jason was so good In this audition I always tell him

Starting point is 00:54:46 I'm like you were In the audition Than you even were When you did the movie And he hates hearing that That's a dig too He hates hearing that But he really was so good

Starting point is 00:54:54 And I called Doug back And I was like Doug I think you have to give to Jason I didn't know he was so talented. I was a theater major, you know? I felt like very superior at this point in life. And so when I realized that he was actually, you know, not just this like, whatever, teen comedy sex guy.

Starting point is 00:55:15 I was like, whoa, oh my God. Yeah. You've got to give it to him. He's fucking talented. So then we ended up in Boston together for three months doing the movie. And then we were married six months after that. I just got back from a trip and the whole trip I had a color palette. And one of the colors that I wore a lot was like a French blue.

Starting point is 00:55:43 And how I got inspired by this color was through Jenny Kane. I got to pick a shirt off their site and I picked the boyfriend shirt. I got it oversized so I got a large and then I wore their boyfriend shirt like over my bathing suit. It was so cute. It's a button up like a collared situation with a great. great sleeve. I love it oversized. And this color, you guys, is so pretty. It also comes in white, and I'm not mad at the white, to be honest, and kind of like a mustard stripe. But the French blue is the move. It's on their site. It's luxurious. It's classic. It's comfortable. It's very California

Starting point is 00:56:21 inspired. We also have like cotton and cashmere knit sweaters. I usually go to them for like elevated everyday basics. So if you're looking for a very classic, minimalistic closet, this is. It's a it, but you have to go on and check out their boyfriend button up. It is so major for summer, I'm telling you. And of course, we have a code for you. Find your forever pieces at jenicane.com. Our listeners get a discount. You get 15% off your first order when you use code skinny at checkout. And of course, we have a discount. Our listeners get 15% off your first order when you use code skinny at checkout. That's 15% off your first order. You're going to go to J-E-N-N-I-K-A-Y-N-O-N-com promo code skinny. The brand go-to for all season staples, treat yourself because you deserve it.

Starting point is 00:57:11 It's gall. It's not gall. It's top golf. Okay. I recently heard about top golf through our cousin, Leah. She raved about it and I had to get involved. So top golf is so cool. Here's the deal. They have clubs, balls, teas, turf, and even a ball picker-upper, it's like this little cart thing that picks up balls. They also have a whole bunch of stuff that's not golf. So they've really created a vibe there. So they have loud music, giant targets in their giant fairway, giant TVs and handcrafted food and also a beverage menu. This sounds like heaven. It sounds like a really good activity. And even if you don't consider yourself a golfer, I'm telling you, everyone can play just like you did. So you don't have to be a golfer to go here. You should also know they even have a whole day each week dedicated to more

Starting point is 00:58:02 play for less play. So they do this thing on Tuesdays where the all gameplay is half priced, which gives players more of a reason to come play around. This is such a great activity for your whole team. If you have like a work team that you want to take out, have some fun, have a vibe, have an experience. Their handcrafted food menu is incredible. I personally love an experience, especially with Michael. And this is all about play and having fun. I am in to Top Golf. What a fun date night too. Definitely go check them out. Exclusions applied to the Half-priced Tuesday promotion and full terms can be found at topgolf.com slash Tuesday. And most importantly, it's all about fun, which we love.

Starting point is 00:58:41 Playing, eating, or just chilling. Go to topgolf.com slash Tuesday. Did you like him in person right away romantically or did it take some pursuing? I'm always like, I wasn't like, I said, I remember saying to someone. I'm like, he's sweet. I mean, he's not the one. But yeah. I remember saying that to this other fucking director that I know.

Starting point is 00:59:05 And I die over it because it is just so funny. Pamela Anderson says the best thing. What is she said? What is she said? What is exactly what you just said? She said if you want a guy to marry you, be like, you're sweet, but we're never going to get married. I can't marry you.

Starting point is 00:59:20 They fall in love. They fall in love. That's so funny. Like, oh, you're sweet. You're not the one. It's a great way to start a relationship. I'm telling you because it just put checks them right into their place. Well, it increases the excitement of the chase, you know.

Starting point is 00:59:33 Yeah, that might be true. But I remember him also saying. to me. Like after he's like chasing me, courting me, we're in Boston. He's like, I don't know if I'm ready to like be in a relationship. And I remember leaving because I had to go to Miami that weekend. And I was down there with another friend and I'm laughing. I'm like, can you believe that he doesn't think he wants to be in a relationship with me? Like what? The best thing this guy's ever going to get. I was such a like bitch. But truly, I really, I don't know. I really believed it at the time. So then your underlying resentment towards.

Starting point is 01:00:05 him being more famous than him, you get on Twitter and you're able to express it in a way that's like your own form of therapy. Yes. And then I realized I was funny because before that I was like I was doing a lot of procedurals. I was always like a lawyer or a cop or, you know, an FBI agent or ballistics missiles experts. You didn't know you were funny since you were little? No, I don't think I really understood that I was funny until I started seeing people respond in that way. and then everything in my life changed. So when you found out, when you discovered you were funny, it clicked.

Starting point is 01:00:39 And I really like stepped into kind of like my voice. You know, for me, I think it was hard because I had dyslexia as a kid. So I felt like already I wasn't good enough. And then I was like this blonde little girl. And it's like the 80s. And I definitely felt like nobody took me seriously.

Starting point is 01:00:56 You know, there was like very much this like dumb blonde stigma. And I didn't feel like I was smart enough. I wasn't doing what the other kids could do. scholastically. It was just like so upsetting. I remember like, you know, when I was reading time, I would be like taken out of class and I'd be with like these ESL kids from like, you know, like Iraqi refugees who were like learning to read. It was just like I wasn't, I had to like really apply myself. And I think that that has become my superpower in a lot of ways because I have

Starting point is 01:01:24 a resilience and like just like a drive that like I don't feel like I would have had had I not gone through that. But I do. And you're a writer now, which is so crazy. Yeah, because it's like my life is like built on like revenge. I'm like, and I fucking serve it to you guys. But like I do think that because of those things, I had a real just like I was, I would just avoid comedy because I didn't want to play the roles that I was getting in my 20s, which was like the ditsy blonde bimbo. And there was no way in hell. I wanted anything to do with that. So I would just pass. I wouldn't even put myself in that situation as an actress. But when I started writing, It was just like, oh, this is who I am. And then it all changed. Well, I imagine then you can build your own audience on a platform that's not gate kept by producers, writers, directors. Oh, yeah.

Starting point is 01:02:13 I'm not in control over my life. And I was like, this is, why would anybody be an actor? Yeah, really. I just finished Brave by Rose McGowan. Uh-huh. You see her last name. I pronounce everything wrong. Yeah, Rose McAllen.

Starting point is 01:02:25 But I'm like reading this and I'm like, how is anyone subjecting themselves? Listen, that's her experience. Maybe her experience is different. I'm just saying, I'm like, how are you subjecting yourself to all of, it's, it's so many different layers that you have to get through of people saying yes, yes, yes. Yeah, not to comment on that particular. You don't have, like, you don't really have control over anything. Yeah, I don't know her story. So yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But I think that's, that's the dynamic that's changed so much with all these platforms is because there's no longer the person that says, yeah, you're in the part or you're not

Starting point is 01:02:58 in the part. It's like you can build your own attention if you have talent, right? And it's Totally. And it's not dependent on like what a casting agent says or a director or a writer. Like maybe you piss somebody off and then they block. Like this is like fully like you can build attention for yourself if you have the job. Would you ever go back to acting? No. I like hate what I'm stuck somewhere.

Starting point is 01:03:17 Like I get such. I did this like schoolhouse rock thing or I don't know, whatever recently with Jason. And I'm and I'm laughing to him because I'm always like, God like how long are they going to keep us here? Because the idea of not being in control and having to like just like kind of I mean, an actor, you just have to sit on set until they can say you can leave. It's really hell.

Starting point is 01:03:38 I hate it. I hate that feeling. It's also like stand on your mark, this light. And then I would again. And then you see her, I would see myself and be like, oh, that angle. Like, yeah. Like, I just, just constant like, I don't know. It seems like a lot of anxiety.

Starting point is 01:03:54 Yeah, it's like, I mean, for me, it's just more about the lack of control. I'm like, why am I servicing somebody else's vision when like I have my own stories I want to tell? Right. Yeah. And it's funny because, you know, I watch what goes on, I cancel culture and all that stuff, but I watch what goes on there. And I'm like, the only reason you can really get canceled is because you've given somebody else or some other platform or other gatekeeper control over your life. Like I always tell you all the time, like, we do whatever we want and say whatever we want on the show because like we don't answer to anyone. Like worst cases, maybe some advertiser doesn't want to work with us or somebody. But like basically, like there's nobody that's making a decision of whether we can do this or not. We're in some of these other. other professions. Like, oh, you did that wrong thing. You're out. Like, you see it with reality TV stars, right? Like, they say the wrong thing on television and they're kicked off the show.

Starting point is 01:04:39 Completely. I don't know. I mean, it's happened. I've seen it happen to Jason. It's crazy. What do you mean? I would have to kick myself off my own show and I'm not going to do that, right? How does it happen to Jason?

Starting point is 01:04:48 Just like during, this happened, you know, I mean, Twitter became like a very unsafe place to be for just everybody. Everybody. For everybody. But, like, you know, when the right, like, some of these, like, right-wing crazy. like Twitchy and some of those sites started really trying to take down performers and writers. And you watched it happen to James Gunn, who was like an incredible human being. And a lot of people, they just like came after people for like old past tweets. This was right before Sid or maybe

Starting point is 01:05:19 Sid was born. I forget now. But Jason was on Ninja Turtles on Nickelodeon. And he made a tweet about Malaysian Airlines. And it was like the first plane went missing. And then there was a report that the second plane went missing. Nobody knew anything, right? And I'm in the car with him, and he wrote something, just a tweet them in nothing. He just wrote, who wants to buy my Malaysian flight miles? You know, literally nothing. A joke. A joke. A fucking joke. The most innocuous, like, not even a big, whatever. Had to. Maybe like a few hours later, that plane is found. It's like, you know, this fiery, this massive destruction, whatever, you know, it's just like this tragic. plane crash and Michelle Malkin and a few of these other people, all of a sudden on everywhere, TV, like Fox News everywhere, you see Jason's face with a flaming plane next to it. Like as if like how, you know, heartless can these left wing actors beat, you know, and fully, I mean, like, Biacom fired him.

Starting point is 01:06:25 He lost Ninja Turtles. It was just like horrible. So like at that point, it became like, okay, we got to like shift. We can't be putting ourselves in those kinds of positions anymore. It's just like not worth it. But you know, it's funny. Now I think like years like because you saw all this and like we were ardently outspoken about how absurd a lot of this was and especially because things that were maybe not considered

Starting point is 01:06:48 offensive four years ago started servicing and then were considered offensive. Totally. I did delete everything. There were things, terrible things. I mean, I still live tweet The Bachelor. Yeah. Imagine me post Me Too movement how those tweets would read now. No, sure.

Starting point is 01:06:58 But this is the problem. And Bill Burr, as the funniest thing about this. He was talking about how people were like digging up things John Wayne said. And we're like, John Wayne has been dead for 50 years. He's gone. And like the fact that as a society we're sitting here focusing on something like that in the past and not focusing on how to like move forward in a better way for the future, it's just absurd. But it's not productive for anyone.

Starting point is 01:07:21 Yeah. And I think all it's done for people is just made people more guarded and more less likely to share how they really feel about things. This is what it's like. Oh, it's like having an intimate dinner party at your house where you have all your friends there. And you're all talking normally and you're drinking and you're having happy hour and you're having fun. And then one of the friends goes and tells another friend that's outside the dinner party your whole conversation. That friend is not invited back to dinner with you.

Starting point is 01:07:48 Right. So with what happened with Twitter, it's like if you can't put your opinions on Twitter, then you just maybe don't get access anymore because people freak out. Listen, my grandmother is a 96-year-old fully Japanese woman. You wouldn't know that for looking at me. I'm a quarter, but she's fully Japanese. Some of the things that I've heard her say out of her 96-year-old Japanese is absurd. And honestly, maybe it doesn't work. But I'm not going to say and villainize my 96-year-old grandmother who grew up literally almost 100 years ago in a different world.

Starting point is 01:08:19 It's like, this is how it is. We've got to allow some grace here. We've got to be like, listen, you know, not everyone's going to be perfect. So did you delete your Twitter after this happened in New Jersey? I deleted a little bit after that. After like Trump came into office, I was like, I'm out. But Jason, it's like, you know, I remember saying to him, like, I want you to say something. You need to say something about the Roe versus Wade stuff. I want you to say something about abortion, you know, just I felt like not enough men were saying something. And he's like,

Starting point is 01:08:49 Jenny, I love you. But like, I have so much like PTSD around this issue. Like, I can't. I don't want to, like, get, I just can't be, I can't be doing that. It's just not healthy for me. And I totally respect that because it's like, again, this is like an actor who literally had something like stripped from him that like, of course, kills when you have two sons who love Ninja Turtles. It's like such a, it's so, it's just all sad. Well, the sad thing is no.

Starting point is 01:09:23 I don't know. I mean, for like, just a tweet that was like, nothing. the sad thing is on that on him speaking out he would have honestly been damned if he did damned if he didn't and that's what he said to me he's like i'm gonna get shit either way there's no way that goes well yeah and i think that's the sad commentary on the society we live in now where it's like it's so there's no room for nuance and conversation it's like pick your side of the line right yes and if you're not on the like and we talk about this all the time it's like i try to i try to meet people and think that when you meet me you you may not know every

Starting point is 01:09:55 side of every issue I stand on. I want to basically form my own opinions. And I think it would be a failure of thought for myself personally to define myself along party lines. I'd really want to hear and understand why somebody thinks the way they think and then come to my own and form of conclusion, which is how we used to do things. Right. It's how we used to think. Exactly. But now, and I've heard, you know, you hear this all the time like, you have to pick a side. You have to take a stance. It's like, well, I don't know. I don't understand. I'm actually not that informed about everything. Right. I have to think for a second and I can't just jump into the Twitter bandwagon based on. I know.

Starting point is 01:10:25 Right? It's hard. And I think the nuances people should say that more and be like, hey, maybe I actually don't know enough to comment yet. I think that I feel a certain way. But I got to do a little research before I like write a soliloquy online. It's scary. It's just dangerous. Yeah. I think that that there's a way to not show every single part of yourself online and keep some private. There has to be an element of privacy. For me at least. Like I have to have my own. thoughts and feelings. I can't share every single thing. Yeah. So I get, I get, and listen, not to take anything away from actors or podcasters, but are we really the best people to comment on complex issues right when it pops off? Like, I don't know what's going on with the trading bar knows. I have no fucking clue. But there's also like comedies, just like not safe to be funny. Like that really bums me out. It's like, it's such a shame that, you know, even things, sometimes also things that people are like, you're horrible. How dare you? And it's just like, girl with no job did the funniest TikTok, there was this, there was like this girl

Starting point is 01:11:31 that's doing content and she's like, she's like, this is my like LED light mask. And I know everyone can't afford this LED light mask, but this is the one that I like. And then it like goes to girl with no job. And she's like, are we really having to preface everything? Yeah. To like make everyone like everybody feel comfortable. And it's so true. I even like will say things like to preface it. Yeah. It's like not everyone's. going to feel comfortable all the time. That's called life. Yeah, totally. Anyway. Well, it's like you want the real details. Have you guys seen Chris Rock's new special? Michael has. I haven't seen it. So good. Yeah, like selective outrage.

Starting point is 01:12:06 I was dead over some of the things he was saying. Yeah, he went on on Will Smith at the end there. That was wild. I'm, but I'm dying over the like the women's like abortion stuff. Like, I haven't heard it. Dying. Yeah, it's, I mean like, and again, like this, what I think comedians do, especially stand-ups in such a great way is they are able to actually. actually take very serious and complex issues. Yeah. And then call out the absurdities and the way we view those issues, right? And a guy like Chris Rock or Dave,

Starting point is 01:12:34 like they're masters at taking very complex issues and kind of making us look at ourselves in the way that we're talking about those issues. Yeah. Like, okay, like you got to be able to laugh in life. If you can't laugh in life. If you can't laugh, exactly. It's like, can we just like laugh and not like take everything so serious? I think it's going to swing.

Starting point is 01:12:52 I love when guys like Chris Rock come back to. Get behind Twitter. Get all your content. Put it in your notes app because it's going to swing. And I can say whatever the fuck I want again. Yeah. What I like about guys like Chris Rock or Dave Chappelle

Starting point is 01:13:03 as they're older now, because you know the comedy from when they're younger. Right. It's like a more mature take on life, but it's still like they're so fucking funny. So tell us about your book. Which book? I know,

Starting point is 01:13:15 which book? I'm traumatized. Which book? Give us a little breakdown of each one because I'm a big fan. And I think that our audience will especially love your books. Give us a breakdown. of each one. So I like you just the way I am was my first book. And that's just like a lot of like keepers. It's sort of like a really fucked up, a dark I love Lucy. Yeah. And I get into a lot of

Starting point is 01:13:37 hijings. That one has like the hooker story in it. There's a story where like, again, like would this play today? Like I sent my sister an anonymous note telling her she was molested by my grandfather. Like I don't know that that plays today, guys. But at the time, it was hilarious. There's a lot of stuff in that book. Actually, one of the first. One of the first, of the other things again. I can't even. It's just, it's too crazy. But I had like a, I had a run in with Jason's ex who I was obsessed with. She's, who's the ex? Just this random girl, but she's literally Moby Dick and I'm Captain Ahab. And of course, the last time I finally saw her again, she's known person or on the island of Nantucket. It was just like the fuck. It just writes itself, guys. There's a lot about me

Starting point is 01:14:17 stalking her in this book. She's a known person or not a known person? Not a known person. But she was, I was absolutely obsessed with her. I would, like, gift her things of hers I'd find around the house, go on hikes with her for running Canyon behind Jason's back. Like, basically it was having a relationship with her behind Jason's back

Starting point is 01:14:34 when we first got together. I think a lot of girls do that. I set her up with my acting coach and then I went on the date with them. There was just, like, a lot. Oh, Jesus. Are you guys friends still? No, she doesn't speak to me

Starting point is 01:14:44 and I've made amends many times and I did promise I'd never talk about her again. But, like, so I'm just going to go quickly through it. But it's in that book. There's a lot with her. And then book two, Lefasti Hot, is about when I had Sid. And then all the craziness that ensued and sort of this idea of like, how can I be

Starting point is 01:15:01 the mom I was wanted? What I didn't have the mom I was wanted? Like, what can I do to like equip me? Like, how can I better prepare myself? So it's like I got in a fight with this guy on Etsy. And then I like went to Morocco to like the Atlas Mountains to beat the women that actually wove the rug. I went to Peru and did Iahuasco with Chelsea Handler.

Starting point is 01:15:18 That chapter's in there. I moved to New York. like because I became convinced that our house was haunted in L.A. And now I'm so pissed because why did I not call that chapter by ghostal? Like, why? I just thought of it the other day. And I'm so pissed. Actually, my friend Mike was like, it's by ghostal. That's a tweet. Mike, by ghostle.

Starting point is 01:15:37 That's a tweet. But I was like, yeah, convinced the house was haunted. I follow the people who own the house now on Instagram. Just see if they're okay. Well, I'm pissed because nothing seems to have happened to them. It's like really annoying. Maybe something will. I keep waiting.

Starting point is 01:15:52 Yeah. I also don't like how they decorate. Hopefully it's the producers of Ninja Turtles. Exactly. And then this, and the third book was the novel, City of Likes, which is like about,

Starting point is 01:16:02 you know, a young mom of two living in Manhattan who falls under the influence of, under the spell of like a, you know, a very prominent mommy influencer. It's kind of like

Starting point is 01:16:13 Heather's meets mean girls in lower Manhattan. There's some really like fucked up shit that happens. How true is that. is this book. A lot of it is based on fact. A lot of it. How much is a lot of it? I would say that the stuff that people think is fake is usually the true stuff in all of my books. What's something like so outlandish that it like a hook to get us all to go get the book? Like something that we'll just be like

Starting point is 01:16:38 draw on the floor. Oh my God. Well, I can't give it away. But like there is like somebody who gets like mowed down by an Uber like an Uber and the like first. Yeah, it gets it goes, gets crazy. It gets dark. This is the one that you were going to burn bridges with it if you made it. Yes. Like memoir. Yes. Yes. Because I just call out a lot of people that if you are on Instagram and in that like mom space,

Starting point is 01:17:01 you'll recognize these people. So that's why I was like, this is not a good idea for me. So you don't think it's going to burn the bridges by people. No, because she didn't say it. Well, it's fiction. Yeah, it's fiction. Yeah. And then Dictator Lunches is the book, which is like, you know, teaching moms like how

Starting point is 01:17:18 to basically curate lunch because I don't consider myself a shout. I'm just like curating. It's like, what do I have in the fridge that's left over? What can I throw together to make, you know, a healthy, fun, engaging meal for my kid? Because I just believe that like the more we dumb down food for kids, like, the more like dumb food they're going to eat. Like there shouldn't be. I don't know why in this country there's a kid's menu. It's like, why am I having a salad with a salmon?

Starting point is 01:17:42 And then I'm like throwing nuggets at you like you're like some sort of animal on the floor. But I expect you to grow into like a civilized human being who can like use a fork and knife. It doesn't make friends. It's actually a good point. It's so true. And you know what? I bet you, I'm just going to guess, there's not a lot of kids menus in Europe, right? At all. No, in Europe. I'm in Europe like three times a year with my kids and they're like, you're eating what I'm eating. There's no choice. They're like, I'll have the caviar with the side of patte. It's like a total different thing. Yeah, they're like, here's your like fucking schnitzel and spetzel. And you're good with it.

Starting point is 01:18:15 Yeah. Jenny, you're amazing. You can come back anytime. I can talk to you about 600 things. Where can everyone find you, your book, pimp yourself out? I'm on Instagram still, trying to segue off to something else. But I'm Jenny Mullen on Instagram. Jenny Mullen.com has like all the link trees that lead to all the things. Never going back to Twitter. I'm on Twitter. You could like see me on Twitter. Even with the new shakeups going on with Twitter's wildly. God, Twitter's like even freakyer now. Who knows? I got reengaging on, or sort of reengate because it just got so wild there with all this stuff going on. It is fun now to like spy. Yeah. There's a lot going on. There is a lot.

Starting point is 01:18:50 lot happening. There's nothing off limits on Twitter anymore. It's just, it's all out there. It's just like Wild West. Maybe you should get back on. I may need to reintroduce. Or TikTok. I'm on TikTok, but I don't know how to work it exactly. That's okay. I'm like a grandma who's driving, but I probably should have her license revoked.

Starting point is 01:19:08 That's me on TikTok. Jenny, thank you for coming on. You guys definitely go check out her books. I'm obsessed. To win a copy of Jenny's book that's signed by her, all you have to do is tell us your favorite part to this episode on our latest YouTube. So head over to YouTube. You can watch this episode on video and just leave a comment and tell us your favorite parts. And Jenny will send a copy of her book to one of you that is signed. Thank you guys so much for listening and we will see you on Monday. I do not travel

Starting point is 01:19:45 without my little detox drops and my beauty water. First of all, it comes in a set. It's by Sakara. And it comes in like a matte black bottle and a matte white bottle. And the detox drops are chlorophyll and the beauty drops are like minerals. So what I do when I wake up is I make my water immediately lots of ice, lemon, mint, ginger. I mix it up and then I put my detox drops in there and my beauty water drops. And what I feel like this does is the chlorophyll is really good for blood circulation and energy and then the minerals are just incredible for skin and for hair. And just it sets the tone of the day. I love, love, love this ritual that I've created. I've been doing this with Sakara for probably the last year and a half.

Starting point is 01:20:30 It just is like a seamless easy habit stack too. You have to try their detox drops and their beauty water. It's on their site. And then if you're looking for a delivery program that delivers real nutritious food, think plant-rich meals that are all about managing weight, easing bloat, keeping your energy levels high. Sakara has you covered. Sakara delivers science-backed, plant-rich nutritional programs,

Starting point is 01:20:54 and wellness essentials right to your door. You should also know they have a nutrition program that is absolutely incredible. It's like having a nutritionist and a chef in one. So basically, Sakara delivers science-backed plant-rich nutritional programs. So basically, Sakara delivers science-backed, plant-rich nutrition programs, and wellness essentials right to your door. They're ready-to-eat meals are nutritionally designed to deliver results, from weight management to easing bloat to boosting energy and clear skin.

Starting point is 01:21:20 They really check all the boxes. Their products are absolutely beautiful and aesthetically pleasing. and right now, Sikara is offering our listeners 20% off your first order. So you're going to go to Sikara.com slash Skinny or intercode Skinny at checkout. That's Saka-K-A-R-A-com slash skinny, and you get 20% off your first order. sakara.com slash skinny.

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