The Bossticks - Lori Gottlieb On Why You Should Talk To Someone, Therapy, Couples Therapy & Removing Stigmas Around Therapy

Episode Date: February 10, 2022

#434: Today we are joined by Lori Gottlieb. Lori is an American writer and psychotherapist. She is the author of the New York Times bestseller, Maybe You Should Talk to Someone. This conversation focuses on therapy, couples therapy, and removing stigmas around therapy.   To connect with Lori Gottlieb click HERE To connect with Lauryn Evarts click HERE To connect with Michael Bosstick click HERE Read More on The Skinny Confidential HERE For Detailed Show Notes visit TSCPODCAST.COM To Call the Him & Her Hotline call: 1-833-SKINNYS (754-6697) This episode is brought to you by The Skinny Confidential  The Hot Mess Ice Roller is here to help you contour, tighten, and de-puff your facial skin and It's paired alongside the Ice Queen Facial Oil which is packed with anti-oxidants that penetrates quickly to help hydrate, firm, and reduce the appearance of fine lines and wrinkles, leaving skin soft and supple. To check them out visit www.shopskinnyconfidential.com now.  This episode is brought to you by RITUAL Forget everything you thought you knew about vitamins. Ritual is the brand that's reinventing the experience with 9 essential nutrients women lack the most. If you're ready to invest in your health, do what I did and go to www.ritual.com/skinny  Your future self will thank you for taking Ritual: Consider it your 'Lifelong-Health-401k'. Why put anything but clean ingredients (backed by real science) in your body Produced by Dear Media 

The following podcast is a dear media production. She's a lifestyle blogger extraordinaire. Fantastic. And he's a serial entrepreneur. A very smart cookie. And now Lauren Everts and Michael Bostic are bringing you along for the ride. Get ready for some major realness. Welcome to the skinny confidential, him and her.

I think that a lot of times people think that the way that we treat emotional health is different from the way that we treat physical health. So if you're having, let's say, some discomfort in your chest, right? You're probably not going to wait until you have a heart attack to go see a cardiologist. But if someone is feeling like they're having trouble sleeping or they're having trouble in a relationship or maybe they're feeling anxious, they think, oh, it's not really that bad. Like I have a roof over my head and food on the table. So compared to and whatever they compare it to, they think that somehow there's some hierarchy of pain and they don't meet the threshold. So people often don't come to therapy until they're having the equivalent of an emotional heart attack. Today we have an incredible author on the skinny confidential, him and her podcast.

Lori Gottlieb, we're going to get to everything about her. But first, I wanted to hop on here and tell you a little bit about Zaza's birthday. I just thought I posted it on Instagram story. There's a highlight for it. It's on my Instagram feed. It's on the blog. That it would be fun to just talk about it here. some of you guys have messaged me because you have kids and you want party planning tips. I really don't

have that many party planning tips. She's two. And I don't even know if my party planning tips are appropriate for a two-year-old, to be honest. I feel like I kind of planned her birthday like I would plan my birthday. But I thought since it just happened a week and a half ago that it would be fun to tell you about it. Like we're having happy hour when you're drinking and I'm not. I'm having a mocktail. But also I wanted to shout out some of the small businesses that we worked with. I think it's super important, especially because we worked with a lot of people who are building their brand on Instagram to showcase them because there's so many talented small businesses out there. So just to give you backstory, we decided to throw a birthday party for Zaza

and the theme was pineapple. I was really inspired by this photo that I saw on Instagram six million years ago before I had a baby that was pineapple bowling. And I wanted to recreate pineapple bowling and like use coconuts as the balls, but have the pineapples be spray painted in different pastels. And I wanted to base the whole entire party around that. I tend to do that when I create a theme. Like even for the upcoming nursery, I tend to like find like this one thing and then create the whole theme around that. For instance, Zaza's baby shower, her theme was alligators.

Thanks to Patricia from Southern Charm. And then we turned it into pastel alligators. And I like to take like something very niche and then like, Just plan everything around it. Anyway, if you are looking for a small business party planner that will elevate your events, you've got to check out at round town events. They are so major and they get any vision I throw at them. We have worked on so many different projects together.

Even projects for my business, I'll be like, I want to do a room and I want to do it in pink and I want Barbie pink everywhere. Like she just vomited pink. And then I want pink huge feathers everywhere. And they'll make it come to life. They are so incredibly talented. I cannot say enough good things about Carly and Lindsay. Check their business out, Roundtown events on Instagram.

And then if you're looking for garland, heart balloon entries, balloon arches. I mean, honestly, anything they can do, bounce house balloons, palm tree balloons, bar balloon garland, everything. Then you have to check out at Bish events, okay? B-I-S-H events. If you are in California, that is who should do your balloon. The balloons were absolutely spectacular, and the girls were professional on time. Again, another small business. The rentals were so cute.

They were all different shades of baby pink, pale green, a little bit of white, and each one really fit the theme. And we got those through archive rentals. Again, another business that I highly recommend supporting and checking out if you're throwing any kind of party or wedding. Then we did manservants. So when you arrived to the pineapple party, there were. four guys outside dressed in yellow suits with Ashlyn,

Seltzers, and Bev, Rose, with cotton candy on top by spoonful cotton candy cart. And they said, welcome to Zaza's birthday party. It was so cute because at the end, they actually stood around her and sang her happy birthday. The manservants, by the way, have been like a theme on the skinny confidential forever. They started out at my bachelor party. They were serving us all different kinds of alcohol. I don't remember much.

And then they also came to Zaza's baby shower, which she wasn't alive for. And they greeted everyone. And so I wanted to pull it through to her birthday party. And they sort of just like bus the party, which is awesome. They serve drinks. They serve food. They just do whatever needed, which is absolutely amazing. And then another business that I have to shout out is the floral exchange. It's the mother daughter team. And they came in and they just fucking nailed my vision. I wanted to do florals. But in the florals, I wanted to do florals. I wanted. pineapple sticking out of them. And then I wanted the vases to be different pastels. And on each table, we had these gorgeous, lush arrangements in the lounge area, in the bar area, in the cocktail area. And there was this huge pineapple sticking out of each floral. So if you are in San Diego, check them out. They also did coconuts that were painted in pastels. They did pineapple and pastels. Very talented team. And when it comes to planning a party, I'm just very much about calling out people's talent. If you want the whole list of all the vendors that we worked with, I literally tagged every single one on my last two Instagrams. So check that out. You could throw a whole party

with all these people and each one is so talented in their craft. I'm going to do a blog post on the party too. So if you want to see visuals, go to my highlight on Instagram. It says pineapple party and then check out the blog in a week for a full recap. Okay, with that, we have a super exciting guest today. She's a psychotherapist and a New York Times bestselling author. You've heard of her. Her book is everywhere. Maybe you should talk to someone is a huge hit on Amazon. I'm talking like 20,000 reviews, five star on Amazon bestselling author. She also wrote Mary Him and then Stick Figure, which I read in high school. So crazy. She is super smart when it comes to trauma, relationships, diving deep, therapy, all the things. And we go there on this episode, as always, with that.

Meet Lori. This is the skinny confidential, him and her. Sometimes I like to use this podcast to manipulate my husband into doing things I want him to do. It works really well. So I guess my first question is, who needs therapy? So a lot of people would say everyone needs therapy. I don't believe that.

But I think that people misunderstand who therapy is for. I think that a lot of times people think that the way. that we treat emotional health is different from the way that we treat physical health. So if you're having, let's say, some discomfort in your chest, right, you're probably not going to wait until you have a heart attack to go see a cardiologist. But if someone is feeling like they're having trouble sleeping or they're having trouble in a relationship or maybe they're feeling anxious, they think, oh, it's not really that bad. Like, I have a roof over my head and food on the table. So compared to and whatever they compare it to, they think that somehow there's some hierarchy of pain.

and they don't meet the threshold. So people often don't come to therapy until they're having the equivalent of an emotional heart attack. And the problem with doing that is that, first of all, you've suffered unnecessarily. Sometimes people will suffer for years before they come to therapy. And the other thing is, it's harder to treat at that point because instead of kind of coming like preventative medicine, right, instead of coming when you say, oh, maybe I need some support with this, they come when things have gotten really bad.

So when we ask, you know, who is therapy for? I think if you're asking yourself, if you should go to therapy, you probably should go to therapy. My problem, and I told you this off air, and I'm just going to be really blunt about it, is that I really value my time. And to, I've tried to do therapy, but I haven't found the right therapist. And so with that, it's like I've gone to all these therapists and I've told, you know, we've talked. and it hasn't worked. I'm going to say three, about three therapists. And so I'm like, oh my God, this is so much time that I've invested and it hasn't been the right fit. So I guess my question is, what can we do before we even start working with the therapist to know that it's maybe going to be a fit?

That is such an important question because, in fact, the research shows that the most important factor in the success of your therapy is your relationship with your therapist. It's kind of like dating, right? So no two therapists are exactly the same. Right. And so more than the person's training or the modality they're using, like, whether they're using like psychoanalytic or cognitive behavioral or whatever they're using, more important than the number of years that they've been practicing is the chemistry that you have with your therapist. So the first session, people don't understand that the first session is not like the outcome is either going to be, I'm in therapy with this person or I'm just not going to go to therapy. It's really a consultation.

It's an opportunity for you. It's like a first date. You know, what was it like to sit in the room with this person? And at the end, I would say ask yourself two questions. The first one is, did I feel that this person basically got it? Did they understand me? And they're not going to understand everything about you from one session. But do you feel like they kind of were on the same wavelength? And the second question, I think this one's the most important, is, did they say something or ask something that made me think about something in a new way? Because therapy is not. It's not about going in and downloading the problem of the week and then leaving and coming back the next week and downloading the problem of the week again. That's a complete waste of your time. So what should we look for that are red flags where we're like, this is, this is, uh. I think if your therapist doesn't challenge you to think about something from a new angle. So I'm a writer as well as a therapist. And I like to say that I'm really more of an editor in the room, meaning that someone comes in with a story. It's a faulty narrative because we're all unreliable narrators. We are. And it doesn't mean

that we're purposely lying. It just means that. Don't tell my husband that. I am a reliable narrator to my husband. Yes. Well, so here's the thing. I'm trying to think there's a lot of fault here, Lauren. So when I see couples, this is a perfect example, right? So when I see couples, they both come in with a story. And it's not that either of their stories is not true. It's true from your respective perspectives. So each of your stories is absolutely true from your point of view. But the thing is, there's more to the story. It's if you're writing a story and you're only writing from the protagonist's perspective, you don't know what else is going on. So when people come in, I did a TED talk about this actually,

which is about how changing your story can change your life. Yes. And once you start looking at who are the major characters, who are the minor characters, is the protagonist moving forward? Is the protagonist is going in circles. Usually when people come to therapy, the protagonist is going in circles. They are not moving forward. They're stuck because they're not seeing something about the story that they need to see. And partly that's their own role in the story. I have a girlfriend like that. She knows who she has as she's listening. And I tell her this. She sometimes feels like she's not taking any accountability. Yeah. So how do you show someone who can take accountability? You know who I'm talking about. Yeah, but no, it's, I think the issue,

I think this is a common issue even for ourselves sometimes. It's like for everybody. It's that it's always some external factor. It's never us. It's more now than ever. Like it's constantly looking to external is like why something happened. It's never looking inward and saying, oh, maybe this bad relationship or this bad friendship or this failed business or this is me. Right.

It's always like there's some other thing that's causing these things. So how do you make someone see that like sometimes they're the creator of their own destiny? Right. So I would say sometimes it's true. So we have this expression. before diagnosing someone with depression, make sure they aren't surrounded by assholes, right? So, because sometimes it is an external thing. But then what is your reaction to the assholes, right? Why are you in that relationship? Are you setting boundaries? Are you choosing people who are going to

disappoint you, right? All of those things. So there's that. The other thing is that there's a difference between, this is why I always tell people, don't talk to your friends about your partner when you're upset with your partner. That's great advice. Because there's what we get from our friends. friends is called idiot compassion. So there's idiot compassion and wise compassion. And I write about this and maybe you should talk to someone. Is this a coin you phrased or that you can't, or that's a Buddhist concept? It's a Buddhist concept. And I talk about it in the book because I think it's so important. So idiot compassion is what we do with our friends. So your friend calls you up and they're like, look at what my partner did. Can you believe that? Or look at what my boss did or look at what my mother did or

whatever it is. And we're like, yeah, they're terrible. You were right. They were wrong. And then you just get all riled up. That's idiot compassion. But sometimes what happens is if you listen to your friends enough, you'll hear a pattern. Like they're always complaining about that thing. And they're always the victim of that thing. So what you get in therapy is you get wise compassion. And in we hold up a mirror to you and we help you to see something about yourself that maybe you haven't been willing or able to see. So when someone comes in and they're like, look at my partner. They're terrible. Look what they did. Our question isn't, you know, we don't say to them. Yeah, they're terrible. I can't believe you're in a relationship with them. It's why,

why are you in this? What's going on? What's your role in this? What are you doing to improve the situation? So I think that that distinction is really important with external versus internal. So it's not that there aren't circumstances out in the world that are difficult. It's what is our role in reacting to those situations? I cannot agree with you more about not talking to friends about partner problems. I totally agree with that. And it's, You are right. There's a pattern. If you look at it, it's always the same kind of thing. Well, you know, in a way, isn't it? I always struggle with when people come to us or individually and start bashing their partner who a lot of the time we're also friends with. You start getting in these relationships as couples where it's like you're going out with couples.

You maybe that relationship started with one of the individuals, but now it's both of them. And if you have one constantly bashing the other and you're in a friendship with both, it gets really difficult because maybe on one side you're like, okay, you guys shouldn't be together and you're sitting at a dinner like, what the hell are we doing here? Or you're looking at that individual and saying, okay, well, if it's this bad, why are you still doing this? And it almost puts you in this position where you either have to bash and tear down the relationship or you have to kind of question your friend and be like, what's going on mentally, that you're staying here. Yeah, there's this other phrase we have called help rejecting complainers. So those are the people who are always complaining about their partners, but they don't want to do anything to make it better. Oh my gosh.

And what happens is it's so frustrating for you as the friend because you care about this person. And they keep coming to you with this stuff and you'll make a million suggestions to them thinking that's what they want. And they'll be like, yeah, no, that won't work because, yeah, no, I can't do that because no, that's never going to work. Right. So as they don't actually want a solution, somehow it's serving them to complain and get the attention from you for complaining. Or then you hear really terrible things about the relationship and then three weeks. weeks later, you're sitting at the wedding and you're like, whoa, I was just, I just heard all this bad stuff. And you got to, like, kind of sit there and clap your hands like you're happy, but you have

all this other information. It's like, I'd rather just not know because it's awkward. But that is why therapy is so powerful because you're right. It is a wise place to get advice. It's an outside perspective. And if you tell a friend, you're going to get all that comes with it. Therapy helps you to look at you and what you can do in your situations in life, right? So you're not coming there. to change another person, you're coming there to say, what can I do to change something in my life? What do I have the power to change? It's a very, I hate to use the word empowering because I think that gets overused so much. But I think what it does is it gives you agency. So a lot of people come to therapy and they think, oh, I'm the victim of all these things in my life. And it's like,

yeah, there might be some really bad things going on in your life. But where's your agency to make changes in your life? And that's what it can help you to clarify. Well, now that the secrets out and I've announced I'm pregnant. I can tell you what prenatals I've been taking. And that is, and shouldn't surprise you, ritual. I love their prenatals because I just feel like it takes the guessing out of what is in my prenatal. Ritual is vegan certified, non-GMO, gluten and allergen-free. There's no fillers. There's no colorants. There's no shady shit. It's delayed release. There's no nausea capsule design, which is so important when you're pregnant because everything makes me nauseous. The other day, Michael was like eating ice cream and something got on his beard and I thought

it was going to throw up all over him. So this is important when it comes to taking a prenatal. And ritual has transparently sourced ingredients. When I am pregnant and I took ritual when I was pregnant with Zaza, it's very important to me that I'm not ingesting like all this random shit, especially in my prenatal that I'm going to be taking every single day. Another product that I have been using with ritual is their protein powder. It's plant based. And what I do is I have, have this after a workout. So I'm doing a lot of weightlifting during pregnancy, and it's important that I get the protein in right after I'm done. I can't eat a lot of meat for some reason, because it tastes like metal. That's a different story for a different day. And eggs are kind of grossing me out.

So I've been reaching for just like a simple shake. So I do water, a little scoop of almond butter. I'll do rituals, chocolate or vanilla protein powder. I prefer the vanilla if I have to choose. And then I'll add another scoop. So usually two scoops to get 20 grams of protein, a lot of ice. And that is what I'm drinking after my workout. I typically am a protein powder snob. I feel like there's so much added shit in protein powders, but not rituals, obviously. They have traceable ingredients, daily support, great taste, and it's sustainably sourced.

And this one has a complete amino acid profile. So ready to shake up your protein ritual. Our listeners get 10% off during your first three months at ritual.com slash skinny. Ritual even offers a money back guarantee if you're not 100% in love. visit ritual.com slash skinny today for 10% off your first three months. Okay, so I'll put myself on the hot seat right now. Let's do a little couples therapy. Oh, God.

I thought this about other people. One of the problems that Michael and I have, and we've talked about this on the podcast, is that when I, he has a little bit, I'm trying to take accountability in this with myself. So he has a little bit of an issue with his delivery. It's Kurt. Okay, so already, already I just. want to say you're already talking about what his issue is. I know, that's what I just said, though. That's what I said. I want to take accountability in there. You're not taking accountability

at all. But my reaction is maybe I'm emotionally matching the delivery, which is setting it off more, if that makes sense. But what you're saying is that if, okay, say I do have a poor delivery. I'm receiving the delivery wrong. But if you don't have the mental state, if you're not in a clear mental state, you're receiving that in a way that's maybe not conducive. So I'm So much of the time what couples do is they tell the other person what they don't want. And what I want you to do, Lauren, is I want you to tell them what you do want. Okay. So tell them what you do want.

I would love it if you were a little bit softer on your delivery and you weren't so impatient. So again, you're telling him what you don't want. Oh, yeah, yeah. Okay. So, and also, can you tell him why, what that does for you? So when you talk to me like this, this makes me more open to hearing you. When you talk to me or whatever it does for you. With more tenderness and compassion and respect for whatever I'm doing,

it makes me feel more relaxed and less reactive. Is that good? Yeah. I hear it. My delivery can sometimes be very direct and blunt and to the point. I think sometimes I have a difficulty transitioning between, you know, running a business and then it's an interesting thing because you try to bring compassion to both places. But sometimes when there's a lot going on, you're just trying to, you know, be as direct as possible. That doesn't

always work in a relationship. Tell Lauren what would help you to make that switch. Well, like what can she do so that you don't feel like, oh my God, I'm walking on eggshells because she's going to react to me right now. I think the first thing, and, you know, I don't get so personal with everybody, but obviously with my wife, the advice and the directness is never coming from a place of not trying to be helpful, right? Like, maybe the, like, it's, the delivery is off, but it's only because I care and want what, what I perceive to be the best for her, the best solution for whatever we're working on or going through. Men love solutions. But sometimes that, the delivery is, is just like, hey, this is the problem, this is the solution, as opposed to

the feelings that exist within. Right. So here's the thing. Most of us don't know how to listen. And so when I was training, it's really funny. Even therapists, when I was training to be a therapist, one of my supervisor said something that I think is so relevant in relationships. She said, you have two ears in one mouth. There's a reason for that ratio, right? So what does it actually mean to listen? We don't actually ask people what they need when they're coming to us.

We make assumptions based on what we think we would want. So Lauren comes to you with a problem. You think, oh, I'd want someone to give me a solution to that problem. And Lauren's saying, I want something different. And so it's really important to ask someone when they come to you with something, how can I be helpful to you right now? Sometimes people just want to vent. And maybe the next day or a few days later, they want you to brainstorm with them. But in that moment, they're so riled up that they just want a vent.

Sure. Maybe what they want in that moment is they just want a hug. Maybe they just want to say what they want to say. Or maybe they really want to say, how do you feel, like, how do you think about this or what do you think I can do? right? But ask them first because otherwise you guys are going to what the person who came to you wants to feel understood. I had this couple once and she said to him, you know what three words would make me feel so loved? And he said, I love you. And she said, no, I understand you. I think at our core, what we want most is to feel understood before anything else can happen.

Sure. No, that makes a ton of sense. Another, another thing I was going to say that I think a lot of women and men have problems with is the listening thing. So any other tips that you have for us would be amazing when it comes to listening. Because I think that, I think everyone could be a better listener, including myself. But I think especially with men, sometimes women just want them to listen. I would say yes, absolutely. So again, asking what the person needs in that moment and how you can be helpful to that. Okay. But I also want to see something in the other direction because I think women don't know how to listen to men. And we don't talk about this enough. So when I see when I see couples, and let's say it's a heterosexual couple, but it happens in same-sex couples too. There's this,

this issue of women are saying to men, I really want you, like a woman will say to her husband, like, I really want you to open up to me. I really want you to tell me what's going on. I feel like there's this distance between us. We're kind of disconnected. Can you share what's going on with me? And let's say that he does. And let's say that he tears up. And let's say, that he's talking and he starts crying, inevitably she will look at me like a deer in headlights. What do I do with this? I want him to open up to me, but I feel really unsafe when he breaks down. Huh. Right. So there's sort of this double standard. And I see it when men come in alone to therapy, which is that a lot of times men will say, you know, I've never told anyone this before. And they literally

have not told a soul, even if they're in a great marriage, even if they have close friends and family, not told a soul. Women will come in and they'll say, you know, I've never told anyone this before, except for my mother, my sister, my best friend, right? So they've told maybe one, two, three people, whatever, but they feel like they haven't told anyone. So the difference is that we say we want parity when it comes. We want, you know, this equality around we can all be vulnerable. Emotional health is really important for all of us. But we don't give men the space to do that because there's still this huge stigma. If there's stigma for women, it's 10 times worse for men.

So I would say when men come to women with something, often they don't feel that they can be vulnerable because they're worried about how the person is going to feel about them if they open up. I mean, you know, I think what's interesting about doing this show is we kind of get a him and her perspective on these things. And I personally, like, you know, a lot of men that, you know, maybe they'll say something to their friends, but they would never say to their wife, right? because they just don't feel it's a safe space, right?

Especially things like in the bedroom or whatever, because they feel like if there's any kind of show of weakness that it's going to diminish the marriage or the way that the woman or, you know, partner looks at them. I love when you cry. Cry all you want. I cut onions, bake cry. I love when you cry.

In a sweet way. There's another thing, like, if we're going into it, then I'll get personal here, that I think some men, and I'll just generalize men, like I'll, you know, I'll do that, struggle with is there's a lot of things that I try. I feel I do my best at when it comes to a relationship. I'm obviously very consistent ever stepping out.

I try to be a really good dad. Like all of the things she needs, provider, all of these things that you would hopefully have in a relationship. And then when we get into an argument or a discussion, it's always the little things that I don't do. It's never an acknowledgement of what I do do. And I say that all the time.

Like you can listen to somebody tell you all, like your delivery's offer this. But there's, it's not ever measured against, but there's also 80 other. other things that you do do. Right. Does that make sense? Well, that's what Lori said. She just said that I need to lead with what you're doing right. So the way that I think a lot of men hear this is they're like if I'm, if I'm going to constantly

get beat up about the little things I don't do or changing my delivery, there's like, you kind of like, oh, then I'm going to start slacking on the other stuff because I'm not appreciated in the other areas. I'm not saying I don't feel, I don't feel that way all the time. But when I hear you don't do this, you don't do this, you don't do this without acknowledgement of the things that you do or men do do. And I'm just, again, using a heterosexual relationship, that can be Right. So in any relationship, there's this thing called the Goodwill Bank. And that means that you have to deposit enough goodwill into the bank so that when something goes wrong, there's a withdrawal, that you have enough funds in the bank. So they say that the ratio is five to one, that you need five deposits of

goodwill into the Goodwill Bank before you can take a withdrawal. So if you're constantly coming at your partner with, you didn't do this, you didn't do that, you did this wrong, why did you talk to me that way, whatever it is, but there aren't those other five deposits for each of the withdrawals, then you guys are operating on a deficit and it can really bankrupt, literally, a relationship. Makes a ton of sense. The other thing that people do that you were just talking about was what we call kitchen sink fighting, which is that somebody comes to someone with something like, hey, when you talk to me in that tone, it kind of puts me on guard.

And also that other time that you did that. And let me talk about the 85 other things that happened. I'm going to bring in not just this, but everything in the kitchen sink. And what happens is you never talk about the actual thing that the person is coming to you with because then it becomes like, and remember that thing last week that happened? And remember that thing three days ago that happened? And then it just becomes every time you start talking about something, you guys go off on these, it's a laundry list.

Yeah, and I'll be sexist again and generalize men and say that we are not good multitaskers. And so when somebody brings an issue to me or again, generalizing other men, and it's the one issue and then it trails into 18 other issues that weren't there. It's hard to focus on the thing that needs to be solved because now you're like, your brain is just, there's 80 things that we need to address here. I have been screaming from the rooftops about the beauty benefits of a humidifier. You can go back on the blog, like way back. And I was talking about using a humidifier for your skin, like a cheap one off Amazon.

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As always, you're going to go to get canopy.com to save $25 on your canopy times the skinny confidential humidifier purchased today with canopy's filter subscriptions. Plus, you'll receive a free aroma kit to be used with canopy's built-in aromodifuser. Even better use code skinny 10 at checkout to save an additional 10% off your canopy purchase. You're going to go to get canopy.com to save $25 on your canopy times the skinny confidential humidifier purchase today with canopy's filter subscriptions. Even better use code Skinny 10 at checkout to save an additional 10% off your canopy purchase. Trust me, your skin will thank you. I think it helps for couples to reframe complaints as compliments. And what I mean by that is it's a bid to get closer. So people think, oh, you're coming at

me and that means I'm bad in your eyes. I'm bad in some way or I did something bad. And really what the person is saying, I love you and I want to feel more connected to you. And this made me feel disconnected. But we don't hear it that way because first of all, we don't know how to talk to each other in that way. And we don't and we think because of our childhoods, because of earlier experiences, whatever it might be, that when someone comes to us with a complaint that we're in trouble as opposed to, oh, this is a positive thing. This person gives a shit enough to want to make things better. I think when they're not coming to you, that's when you're in trouble. Yeah, and that's a, that's a weakness in a thing that I don't do right. I know that where I

assume that whenever I come, it's being received in the way, oh, this guy gives this shit, which is why he's saying it. And that's maybe a mistake I'm making or probably for sure a mistake I'm making. That's a perfect transition to my question about love language. How important is the love languages to tap into what your partner needs in that area. It's so important. Everybody loves and loves someone and wants to be loved in their own particular way. And that has so much to do with what messages they got about love and what felt loving to them growing up and what didn't feel loving to them growing up. And everybody grew up in their own environments. God, that is so true about each of the way we want love. That is so true. So it all has to do with

your childhood. It has to do with. It has to do with. what you've learned about love growing up and through your early adulthood in those experiences and just through your life. It's kind of like if everybody came with an owner's manual, like, you know, when you get an appliance or a car or whatever, like there's a manual. It says, this is how you need to take care of this thing. We don't get that with the other person that we're with. And we just assume that they need to be taken care of the way we like to be taken care of. But that's just not true. And that's where couples don't know how to communicate that. They also think that by telepathy,

like you're supposed to read the other person's mind. And somehow, if the person didn't read your mind on how you like to be loved, that they are mean, uncaring, they're, you know, they don't have empathy. They don't care about you enough. I hear this all the time, like, this is what he did or this is what she did in response to that. And it's, did you tell them that this is what you were looking for? Well, no, but they should just know. If they love me, they should just know.

How are they supposed to know? They weren't around for the first 20, 30, 40 years of your life. How are they supposed to know? So what if you are telling someone, hey, this is my love language. It's really important to me and they're not listening. How do you, is it something? Is there like a tactic that the other person can do like five minutes a day? They set an alarm in their calendar.

I don't know. Is there something little that the other person can do? And I'm not talking about us necessarily. I'm just talking about in general. I think this is where boundaries come in. And I want to say that I think boundary, that word. boundaries is overused on the internet. I think that people, like on Instagram, they feel like everything needs to be a boundary. And I feel like people just can't live in that way.

It's just not realistic. It's like laser tag. You know that thing where you're like, exactly. So it's, it's, so a boundary isn't what the other person needs to do. A boundary is something that you set for yourself. Like, I am telling you that this is important to me, right? And you can take that information and do whatever you're going to do with that information, but I'm going to tell you that if you yell at me, I'm going to end the conversation. And then we'll come back and talk about it when you're calm. So that person still might yell, right? But you get to choose. Am I going to hold my own boundary with myself and say, you know what, this is not a good time to talk, but let's come back later when we both sort of, you know, are in a better place to talk.

And so you're holding the boundary. You're not depending on someone else to do the work for you. If someone is yelling at you, coworker, doesn't have to be just be in a relationship anywhere, what would you say to do? And you could even do your own personal thing. It depends on your relationship with that person. So I would want to set that boundary in a calmer moment. If they're yelling for the first time and you've never heard that before, because you don't know them well enough yet, it's the first time. You can say, you know what, it sounds like we should come back and talk about this when we're both in a better space to communicate. about this, right? And then in a calmer time, before you come back and talk about it, say, hey, I think it would be if it's a relationship, I think that it would be really better for us if when we have disagreements or when we get upset with each other, that we could find a time when we can talk when we're calm, because I don't think we'll ever resolve anything like this. And it also, it's hurtful to me when you yell at me. And then they know that's your boundary, right? And so you can, and then you set your boundary and you can say, so if this happens again,

if, you know, there's yelling again. If I'm yelling, you're yelling, let's make a deal that we're just going to come back and talk at another time. So you shouldn't do what I do and say, I'm going to cut your dick off. I'm going to use that. That's your boundary. Yeah, I'm going to say, if you come at me again, I'm going to cut your dick off. You know, I think you touched on something here and we talk about,

there's a theme in this show, which is like self-awareness and getting to know yourself and using tools to get to nurse. I think a lot of times life just kind of sweeps us away, right? You end up in a career. You don't really want to be in. You have been a relationship. You don't know how you got into. You end up doing something that you're like, what is this for me? And I think that's an exercise for all of us in self-awareness and getting to know ourselves better. When you're talking to patients clients and they come in for the first time and it's this focus on the external. How do you kind of channel that inward and say like, are you really? What do you really want? Like getting to know yourself better. Well, if they're coming in as a couple, I actually ask them before they come in, each of them individually. I want them. to come in with a goal of what they each can do, not the other person, a goal for themselves of how they can make the relationship better. So already we're starting off with not how can I change this thing that my partner is doing that I don't like, but what can I do that I know I'm capable of doing to make the relationship

better? And I'm going to really work on that in the couples therapy. And then the other person's going to work on their thing in the couple's therapy. And I think when you start from that place of we're each taking responsibility for our own stuff, couples make so much progress. and get so close with each other. It's really, really beautiful to see. I think when someone comes in individually and they have that external orientation, by the way, we all do. And maybe you should talk to someone. I follow the lives of four patients with me as their therapist, but I'm the fifth patient

in the book. And it's me going through my own therapy. And you can see when I first come in, I'm blaming my ex-boyfriend. That's all I'm doing the entire beginning of my therapy is he's horrible. How can he do this? What's wrong with him? Right. And it turns out, had a role in this too. So I want to say that it's really human to come in and say the problems are out there. But once we start to realize that we have power, that we have agency, and we have patterns and dynamics that we're not even aware of, and then we can start to change them. That's when real change happens. I also, you know, Lauren was touching on the love languages and an analysis that I've done over the, I mean, we've been together a long time now.

But like she said, we both grew up completely differently in the way that I think we were parented. And not that I think we both felt an immense amount of love growing up, but for example, there was not a lot of words of affirmation in my family. My mom's, my grandmother's full Japanese. My mom's half. Like, it's very typical Asian. We didn't, I didn't, there wasn't a lot of words. And I think in her family, there was a lot of words of affirmation. And there wasn't a lot of affection touch in your family. Sure. And so, but I always felt love, but in a different way. It was like, maybe acts of service or just like, I always knew that they were there if I needed There's all that.

But then I think with her and tell me if I'm wrong, there was a lot of words of affirmation and affection. So there's this mismatch of two people that were raised differently, both felt love, but both experienced and learned about love in different ways. And so my way of showing love to most people in my life is acts of service, right? And I think a lot of her way is words of affirmation. But there's been a disconnect. So a lot of what I've had to struggle with and learn over the years is how to meet her

where she is and vice versa. Does that make sense? Yeah. What's so beautiful about couples is that they, learn from each other things that they didn't actually get. So you didn't get a lot of words of affirmation or maybe physical affection. And you might learn how to give that and get that in a way that you didn't. And it adds to the other ways that you show love and receive love. And Lauren, you can learn from him, oh, I can love in a way with my presence. I can love by giving. I can love by

being solid and he knows that I'm there without my needing to say it, but I'm showing it in a different way. And so you grow as individuals. You expand the ways in which you love and can be loved. Yeah. That is so true what you just said, though. When I also struggle, you know, this is this, again, like if I'm really thinking about it, you know, she's really good at giving compliments or words of affirmation, but I honestly don't hear or receive them. I don't disregard them, but it doesn't, it, there's not like a sensory overlaver. Like, that's love to. I'm like, oh, great, okay, good, but I don't receive it in a way where maybe she would receive words about it. I'm like that meme that's like, how much attention do you need? And the

meme's on the floor, like, dead. And I'm like, all of it. So this is what we do is like, we kind of kill people with what we need. But, but like for us, it's healthy and for them, it's overwhelming. So for them, it doesn't feel good at a certain point. Like, it's, you know, timing and dosage is really important. So when are you doing this and what's the dosage? And you guys might have different timing and dosage around these different ways that you like to love and give love. Right. But see, you're you're kind of like pushing your pills on him, right? Like he doesn't he, you know, for him, that's like an overdose. Yeah. It almost makes me uncomfortable in some ways when I'm getting compliments. Does that make sense? Right. And it feels like you're bludgeoning him with it.

It doesn't feel warm to him. Like, I think a certain amount you like it. Sure. Right? Why is it that I, it's not that I like compliments and touch from other people. I like it from my partner. A lot of people say that that they like stuff just from their partner. You don't want to be loved by, I mean, by everybody.

We have a unique relationship with our partners. I mean, you know, and that's why people always say, it's so funny. And couple therapy, people will say like, I don't, I don't feel this way with anybody but him or her, right? Or them. whatever it is, right? I just like, it doesn't. So obviously the problem is that person. It's my partner because this doesn't happen with anybody else out in the world.

And that's because you are not in the same kind of intimate relationship with anyone else in the world, even if your sister is your best friend in the world or you've known your best friend since you were kids or it's your parents or whatever it is, right? It's not the same as being in this intimate romantic relationship. nothing will bring up childhood baggage as much as being in this intimate relationship. And you can see that with Charlotte in the book is one of the people that we follow. And she's in her 20s and she keeps dating these guys. She has like great friendships. She has all of her relationships, her careers on her.

Everything's going well except for the fact that she keeps choosing these guys who are going to disappoint her. And she doesn't realize that even though they look very different from her parents, that she has radar for people who are going to disappoint her in exactly the same way. I am not a big fan of going to the grocery store, and I feel like a lot of people can relate to this. It's 2022. I want to just be able to order it and move on. But I have been using this company called Imperfect Foods, and why I like it is because not only is in Perfect Foods a grocery delivery service. It also offers an entire line of sustainable groceries that taste delicious while reducing waste.

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which makes it easy to build a seamless, stress-free routine. Sometimes you forget to order groceries. Michael's like, where's the groceries? Now this doesn't happen anymore, okay? Everything is just happening at the same day every single week. I get my pomegranate seeds. That's like all I can eat right now. I get my blackberries. I have my fruit in the morning. I'm very happy. Zaza gets her little snacks. And Michael gets his products, all on delivery from imperfect foods. You should also know in perfect food customers save six to eight pounds of food with every order and unlike other on-demand delivery companies, imperfect delivers weekly by neighborhood. This is super cool.

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Again, that's 20% off your first four orders. up to an $80 value at imperfectfoods.com, offer code when you use the promo code, pink food. Join the movement at imperfectfoods.com and use code pink food. Why do so many women, I... It's not just women. Not just women. Okay. Why do so many people have a picker that's off? Is it all from childhood? It's actually if their picker is on is the problem. The picker's on. So what they're choosing...

Well, what they need to do is they need to resolve some of that stuff so that they will pick better and want something different. So the reason that we have radar for people who are very similar to the people who raised us is that there's comfort in the familiar. And there's also this thing called repetition compulsion where we think this time I'm going to win. I didn't win as a child. I always felt neglected. I didn't feel loved, whatever. I didn't feel seen. I didn't feel hurt or understood. But this time, I'm going to master that with this person. They're going to give me all the things that my parents didn't give me because there's something very similar about them,

but we think different. And yet, again, that radar is very accurate. And so with Charlotte in the book, you can see that once she started dealing with her dad and her mom differently, she started picking different kinds of people. What would happen is when your picker is off like that, you not only pick people who are not good for you,

you don't pick the people who are good for you. So she would go out on dates with guys who were like really good guys for her. And it wasn't like, oh, they're not attractive or something like that. It wasn't like, oh, he's nice but not attractive. They were like super attractive, really emotionally available, really on par with her in terms of, you know, job and all of those things. And similar values, similar goals in life. And she'd be like, yeah, he's great, but yeah, no chemistry.

The reason what we call chemistry is often a repetition of that thing from childhood that feels really familiar. And so it really, that's where when you asked earlier on, like, why do people, go to therapy. A lot of times they go to therapy because they can't find the right relationship or they're having, they keep having trouble in their relationships and they don't understand why and they keep thinking it's the other person. And sometimes it's kind of like if a fight breaks out and every bar you're going to, maybe it's you. Huh. I feel like a therapist is a perfect person to point that out. I have one other question that I'd be remiss not to ask it. And it's a theme that comes up again on the show. It's confidence and self-worth. But I don't think we've channeled that conversation

towards relationships. I'll give you an example. We have a great friend of ours, you know, successful in every kind of measure, good looking, all these different things. And for some reason, this individual feels that he is not worthy of certain people that, you know, in the dating pool, right? And I always find that interesting because from an outside perspective, you would look at this person, be like, like, has everything, right? And I think that comes down to confidence and self-worth. So when people come in and they're not feeling confident and they don't feel like they have self-worth in the therapy session. Like what, where do you typically channel them? That goes back to this idea of the story that they're carrying around inside of them. So when we talk about the unreliable narrator,

sometimes people are an unreliable narrator because they are telling themselves a story that someone else told them that was not accurate. And then they internalized that story and they held it. So some stories that people carry around with them are things like, I'm not good enough or I'm unlovable or I can't trust anyone or whatever that story is. They don't even realize that they're carrying around those stories. And so what they do in therapy is they get a rewrite. Let's look at the accuracy of that story. Let's look at other evidence for maybe why that story is not true. It's kind of like people come to therapy wearing clothes that don't fit anymore, like they're wearing their childhood clothes and they've outgrown them, but they don't realize that they're an adult

and they're free and that the story that they're carrying around is actually a prison. When I went to therapy, my therapist told me, he said to me at one point, because I was in this stock place and he said, you know, you remind me of this cartoon and it's of a prisoner shaking the bars desperately trying to get out. But on the right and the left, it's open. No bars. Right. So that's that prison that we like, oh my gosh, I'm stuck in this. I'm stuck in this. But no, actually, you're free. So why don't we walk around the bars? It's because with freedom comes responsibility. Now we can't blame other people for why things are not going well in our lives, that we have to take responsibility for our own lives. And sometimes we're really afraid to do

that because we don't know that we're capable of it. We think we're still children, but we're not. We're adults now. What is it like as a therapist with your credentials going to therapy? I mean, that's got to be a trip. Yeah. And the reason that I included my own therapy in the book is that I thought it would be almost disingenuous to be the expert up on high because really maybe you should talk to someone is about our shared humanity. It's not even really about therapy. It's about what happens when human beings share the truth of who they are and start to learn how to be kind to themselves, how to treat themselves well, how to relate differently in the world. And so you can see that I do all the things in therapy that my patients do with me.

You know, like I don't see the thing that's clearly right in front of me. I blame something on someone else. I'm afraid to kind of tell the whole truth. So there are some secrets that I'm harboring that I don't tell my therapist till about halfway through the book, right? And it's this whole thing of like, why are we so afraid of showing who we really are? And I think it's because the irony of that is that I always say to people, you know, people say to me so much of the time, what happens if someone comes to therapy and you don't like them, right?

What do you do with them? And I say something that my supervisor said, which is that there's something likable about everyone. It's your job to find it. The only time that I can't find it is when people are hiding from me. Like they're going off on lots of tangents. They don't want to tell me the truth. They don't want to tell me the whole story of what really happened because they're bathed in shame. They have so much shame about who they are, what they've done.

And when people really tell me all of it, everything, the good, the bad, the ugly, that's when I feel really connected to them. And I think out in the world that's true too that, and I would say choose your audience for this, right? You're not going to just broadcast this. But I think that when you're in a trusting intimate relationship and it doesn't even have to be romance. friendship too, that when you show the truth of who you are, that relationship is going to get so much closer. You're going to be so much more loved because it's hard to love someone who is kind of like telling you only half of who they are, showing you half of who they are. I also think why so many people love your book. Your book has like 50,000 five-star reviews

on Amazon, which is insane for a book. I think it's because you put yourself in the hot seat to start the book out. I think that's what made you, the books like so amazing to me. It was different. Well, what's really funny about it is that I was supposed to be writing a book about happiness. And I couldn't write that book because I felt like, first of all, I feel like happiness as the byproduct of living our lives in a way that's meaningful is what we all want. But happiness as the goal in and of itself is kind of a recipe for a disaster. And so I felt like it was really empty. And I felt like what I really wanted to do was show people what I get to see every day, which is I get to see these beautiful stories of people taking risks, moving into new places, breaking patterns,

changing their lives in these significant ways. And I wanted to show what it's like to be a fly on the wall in the therapy room and to watch that. But I also felt I really wanted to show that I am, you know, a card-carrying member of the human race, that I'm no different from anybody else. So when I tried to say, I don't want to write the happiness book, I want to write this book where I bring people into the therapy room and we followed the lives of these patients and me and my therapy, everyone said, oh, no one wants to read about that. No one wants to read about people talking in a room, right? That's like my favorite part. And I said, well, you know, if three people read this, I want to write this book for those three people because I think it will change their lives. And now,

you know, over a million people have bought this book. So crazy. And I think it's because I was so vulnerable in the book. When I first turned in the book to my publisher, they changed their mind about whether three people were going to read this. And they were like, oh my gosh, I laughed. I cried. I gave it to a million people. And I thought, uh-oh, maybe I should clean myself up a little bit, right? Because I was like, I thought nobody's going to read this. I can just let it rip. I don't, you know, I don't have to like curate myself in any way, right? But then I didn't edit myself. I didn't curate myself. I just left it the way it was. And I think that's why it resonates with so many people because I'm not trying to be someone, I'm not trying to be like a cleaner

version of myself or a healthier version of myself. I'm just being human. And I think it's such a relief for people to read about these stories where they can see their own lives reflected in all of the people that I write about in this book. Narcissistic personality disorder. I feel like everyone feels they have someone in their family who you got to put on stage. What are your thoughts on that? It's all over the internet, all over Instagram right now. Yeah.

So we're taking applications for season three of our podcast right now, which is the Dear Therapist podcast where we do sessions with people. And for some reason right now, almost every application is about a narcissistic person in someone's life. So Guy and I, Guy's my co-host on the podcast and he's a therapist as well. And we've been talking about this because we feel like on Instagram and just in general, it's sort of used very casually this term narcissist. Like my partner did this, that person's a narcissist, right? All of a sudden they have narcissistic personality disorder. Narcissistic personality disorder is a real thing.

And it's not just, oh, they were being selfish in this moment. That doesn't make you a narcissist. It makes you human and maybe you need some attention called to that. So I think that there are truly people, though, who like John in the book, you know, maybe he had narcissistic personality disorder. I talk about how I didn't want to think about him as a diagnosis. I wanted to think about him as the unique human being that he is. But many people who have narcissistic personality disorder or even narcissistic tendencies feel, they seem like they have this overinflated view of themselves, like they are the center of attention and everything has to be about them. But it's only because of that tender piece inside where they actually feel incredibly insecure. They feel unlovable. They feel just like

nobody can connect with that. And they're very afraid of connection. So what they do is they push you away with their obnoxious personality. Nobody can get close. close to a narcissist. There's no way you can have a true intimate relationship with a narcissist because there's no room for anybody else in that relationship. But what it is, it's protection. So I always say that people talk to you through their behaviors. And the unspeakable is what they're showing you through their behaviors. And I won't spoil what we learn about John. People absolutely hate him at the beginning of the book. And by the end of the book, they want to hug him. They're like, we love him the most of anyone else that we read about in this book. So it shows,

you that once you see what is driving this protective shield, which is what narcissism is, and once that person recognizes that and they can go underneath that and see that they can be loved, it's a game changer for them and for the relationships in their lives. But what if they don't? What if they don't have the capacity to acknowledge that they're a narcissist? How do you handle that? Do you just handle it at a distance? As you can imagine, I've been drinking a little.

lot of mocktails lately. I've been mocktailing it up over here. And you know what I'm doing? I'm doing oly pop. It's the new kind of soda. It's low sugar. It's low cal. It's low carb. It's all the things. But it tastes like the nostalgic pop that you used to have after a soccer game. You know what I'm talking about? That orange soda that I would sneak behind my mom's back or maybe a vintage Coca-Cola or even a root beer. They have all different kinds of flavors. But they're not. They're not a nostalgic soda is made with natural ingredients that are actually good for you. It has prebiotics in it, plant fiber, and botanicals to support your microbiome. So you're getting gut benefits while you're drinking a low sugar soda. So this is a fun fact. I just look this up. Coca-Cola has 39 grams of

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one you like the best. You're going to go to drink olypop.com slash skinny or use code skinny at checkout to claim this deal. That's D-R-I-N-K-O-L-I-P-O-I-P-O-P-O-P-P dot com slash skinny. Ollie-Pop can also be found in over 8,000 stores across the country. This includes Kroger, Target, Whole Foods, Sprouts, and Weldlands. Cheers. It depends what kind of relationship you have with them. So if you're trying to have an intimate relationship with someone who doesn't realize that maybe they need some therapy. And by the way, narcissists generally don't come to therapy on their own. It's because there's a problem in a relationship. Their partner dragged them to therapy and said, you know, we're having trouble

in the relationship. And then the therapist will see that. And the therapist, what I will often do is I will do some individual sessions. And I'm not going to use that label, by the way. I think it's really damaging. And I think that it really brings people's, you know, puts that wall up even higher. It makes them even more defensive. Meaning if somebody comes in and there's, and all of a sudden they're labeled as a narcissist. Well, their partner labels them as that. Yes. I think it's just not, even if I agree, by the way, I don't think it's useful. It's not productive. It's not, well, it's not helpful because I think a diagnosis is a convenient way for clinicians to speak to each other and talk about

a set of symptoms. It's a shorthand for us. But when someone who's not a therapist is calling someone something else, even if there are elements of that diagnosis, in that person's personality. It's really not helpful. It's more about, hey, when this happens, this is what happens to us in the relationship. That's how you talk to your partner. I think that it puts you higher up. It creates this power dynamic. Like, I'm the healthy one. You're the one with the problem. And by the way, if you chose that partner, you clearly have some things you need to resolve to. Sure. What can parents do? We have a two-year-old to raise a really healthy, happy child. I think that the first thing you can do is model being healthy and happy in your own life.

Parents nowadays, and I'm a parent too, so I'm guilty of this. I think what they do is they focus so much on I don't want my child to experience any sadness, anxiety. So we kind of pave this road for them that's very smooth. So they don't have to struggle with anything. And we give up. We sacrifice so much on behalf of our kids. And partly that's a reaction to an earlier generation. that felt like, well, kids are resilient and whatever they experience, they'll be just fine,

and we don't really have to worry about their emotional health. But there's a balance. It's like the pendulum has swung too far in the other direction. And so a lot of times what you see is you see parents talking their kids out of their feelings. So your kid comes to you and is like, I'm really sad. At lunch today, so-and-so sat with so-and-so, and it was terrible. And, you know, the kid's crying. And it's really sad. And the parents' heartbreaks and says, well, I'm going to call the school about that. Or here's what you should say to your friend. And here's what you should do and how dare they, right? As opposed to, yeah, that sounds really hard. Can you imagine just saying that to your kid? And they're crying and they're really upset. You will see that what's

going to help your kid is, that sounds really hard. And ask them like, well, what do you, what do you think they did that today? I got a lot of, yeah. And what do you think you can do do about it? Mrs. Fix it. I got a lot of, yeah, that's really hard in my upbringing. A lot of that. Like, I'd come in and be like, this tough. It's struggling, yeah. And did they help you think it through, though. Did they help you kind of, you know, I'm very grateful for it now because, and it's funny, I just did this stress test yesterday where I had hooked up to all these machines and blood and all this stuff. And I, and apparently now I managed stress very well. And I think it has a lot to do with being in stressful mental environments as a child. Are you like, you have to work through

it. Like you realize, okay, like this is the, this is the little cage that you put in. You're going have to have to go through it. And at the end of it, you're resilient, right? I think about that a lot with our child. I think both of our parents did an incredible job. And I know my Dad's listening. Hi, Daddy. At giving Michael and I the tools to figure it out. You want something, go figure it out. It was a theme of our child. Right. But here's the thing. It's kind of like you don't want to give them something so constrained like a fishbowl, but you don't want to give them something so open like an ocean. You want to give your kids an aquarium. And what I mean by that is you want to be a witness and a guide.

And you don't, so in other words, you're not just a witness. That's the ocean. You don't just want to be. be sort of like the fixer. That's the fishbowl. You want to be a witness and a guide. So instead of doing this thing where maybe your kid comes to you and they say like, oh, I'm really sad about this. And the parent like ignores it completely and says, wants to cheer up the kid and like, let's go get frozen yogurt. Let's go to Disneyland. Or the kid is like, I'm really worried about this. And the parent says, oh, there's nothing to worry about. Oh, no, it's going to work out just fine. You're not letting them feel their feelings. You get so activated by their sadness or their anxiety or the fact that they got disappointed, like they didn't get the role in the school

play or whatever it is. And then you're like, no, you were the best. You should have gotten it. No, actually, they weren't the best. They didn't get it. Okay. So you can say to them like, yeah, you know, like, I know you really wanted that. And I know you worked so hard for that. And you know, this is really disappointing. And you give them a hug and you sit with them. It's a period after the sentence. It's not. Yeah. And oh, by the way, and stop talking. Okay. I remember distinctly, like when I was younger, they had this Pop Warner football when I was a kid, right? But you did it based on kind of like age and weight, right? So it was kind of in a way a little bit, it was more fair, right?

Then I got to high school and I was trying to play football and like all of a sudden you're there with guys that are, you know, triple the size of me. And I, in Pop Warner, I was fine. I was like one of the, you know, star players. But then I got there and it was like a real equalizer, right? I wasn't at all. And I actually had to quit because I just wasn't, I didn't have enough size to compete. And I remember being so upset about it, just being like,

okay, I'm going to have to find another avenue, another thing. I actually ended up going into boxing and a few other things, which was better. But that was a gut-wrenching moment because a lot of parents told their kids, like, yeah, you can keep doing it. And I saw a lot of people continue to play and just get creamed because some of the parents had the mentality like, yeah, just stick with it and you'll be fine. And it just wasn't physically possible. Right. And that's where the lessons come in, I think, about resilience. You want kids who, when they're younger, have learned that even when I'm sad or I'm anxious or I'm disappointed or something doesn't go my way, that I have a loving presence there, that I can go and talk about it, that my parent can tolerate my sadness, anxiety, disappointment,

anger, right, all of those things. And that feelings are like weather systems. They blow in, they blow out. They're not going to be there forever. And I know that I'm not going to die from this feeling that I have right now. And I know that I don't need someone else to fix it because I have the tools in me. And if I don't, I can go talk to someone and run scenarios by them and get some advice if I need it. You know, like that movie, Rudy, you know, it's an inspiring movie, but Rudy sucked, but he shouldn't be on that team. He was terrible. I must have missed that flip. Rudy? I didn't see that. Yeah, well, I think that was like a movie that was like a movie that was like a movie that was like a movie that you watched after you got kicked out of fall corner football.

But he just keeps trying hard and hard and hard and like one day he gets to do a play at then. I think he gets to do a play at the end. But he sucks the whole time and it's like, you resignated with Rudy. You could take that mental acuity and that mental toughness and put Rudy somewhere else where he could succeed. But like, because people get like, oh, Ruth, you know what I mean? Like, it's a bad lesson, I think. Right. And I, and I think, too, like, sometimes we want to protect our kids from those bad lessons. Like, if your kid says, I really want to do it anyway, let them do it and fail and learn, oh, you know what? Maybe I have talents that can be used differently. Yes. Maria Shriver came on here yesterday,

and she said kind of similar what you're saying. She said when a kid, she has four children, when when one of them would tell her something, after they would tell her, she would say, tell me more. Yes. And I thought that was smart. Yes.

That's actually in my book. Oh, love it. So that's what I always say to kids. In fact, I wrote a piece for Maria's Sunday paper. Yes, I did.

That's probably where she got that from. That's crazy. Or I don't know if that's where she got it. But we are definitely on the same page. So, yes, I always say to parents that when your kid is talking you about something, just all you need to do is say three words and then stop talking. Tell me more. And not just with your kids, with your partner,

with someone at work, right? Just those words. And people will tell you and they can't hear themselves think if they don't get to say what they're saying out loud. Sometimes it's just, it's almost like you're there, but they're really having, they're really in conversation with themselves. And we don't give ourselves enough space to hear ourselves think without all the noise out there. So we all have this place inside of we know what our true north is, but what happened is all the noise out there drowns it out. And so sometimes people just are talking to you because they need to amplify that voice inside and quiet those outside voices. Let's end this with a manipulation so we can bookend it. Next time I'm talking, I would love to hear tell me more.

I think you can do it. I mean, I don't know if I can hear much more. I'm just kidding. You said all you have to do is where you're... So this has been very productive. Yes, it's so productive. Tell me more is all you have to say in our next fight. I have one more maybe ignorant, but I think tactical question. We've been obviously focused on a lot of couples here and a little bit on the individual. When do you think it's appropriate or maybe it doesn't matter for individuals?

Like you said, a lot of men get introduced to therapy through couples therapy. But do you ever coach those people to go individually before they come as a couple? I wonder if it's more helpful for somebody to come and speak to someone individually work on themselves and then go to couples, or do you think it doesn't matter which way you do it? It does matter and it depends on that couple and where they are in their own development. I will say that some people think that you're going to learn a lot more about yourself in individual therapy. As someone who sees a lot of couples, often you will learn so much more about yourself in couples therapy. Because like we were saying earlier, if you come to individual therapy, you're going to tell me your verse. version of what's going on in your life. But I get to see an interaction right in front of me.

A few feet in front of me, I am watching the thing. And I'm going to see something so different than the story that you would have told me if you came in individually. And I'm going to help you do something different right in the moment. Right there, it's not like you're going to have to go home and do it and then try to do it. Maybe you won't do it exactly the right way. We're going to do it right there in the room. And you're both going to have to do something where you're working on yourselves in the presence of the other. other, there's nothing more intimate or powerful than that. Makes sense.

You are a wealth of knowledge. Come back anytime. I feel like there's so many different directions that we could have taken this. And next time you come on, it'll be more niche. Maybe we'll zone in on like family therapy, childhood therapy. But that was so good to have you on. Where can everyone find you, pimp your book out? Tell us what's next for you.

Tell us about your podcast. Great. So, yeah, and I'm happy to come back and talk about anything with you guys. I love your podcast. Thank you. Thank you. So they can get my book. Maybe you should talk to someone wherever they get books.

They can get the new workbook that is the companion to maybe you should talk to someone, which is called maybe you should talk to someone, the workbook. And they can get that wherever they get books. And that takes you on a step-by-step guide to rewriting your story. They can listen to the Dear Therapist's podcast where we do live sessions with people. And then we give them a homework assignment at the end. And they have one week to complete it and let us know how it went. and you can really see how therapy works by listening to that podcast and see, learn something about yourself in the process.

They can watch my TED Talk at TED.com and they can go to my website, which is Lori Gottlieb.com. Lori, you're amazing. You guys, I have book clubs on the Skinny Confidential. I have talked about her book on the skinny confidential. I, anyone who's a reader should read this book. You will love it. Thank you so much for coming on. I am going to go listen to your podcast. Great. Thanks so much. Great to talk to you guys. Do you want to win a signed copy of maybe you should talk to someone by Lori? All you have to do is tell us your favorite part of this podcast on my latest Instagram at Lauren Bostic and make sure you're following at TSC podcast on Instagram.