The Bossticks - Relationship Expert Dr. Morgan Cutlip On Why 50% of Marriages End In Divorce, The Mental Load, & What All Moms Need To Know

Episode Date: March 20, 2025

#820: Join us as we sit down with Dr. Morgan Cutlip – relationship expert & author, who shares actionable strategies for navigating mental load, marriage, & motherhood. From identifying burnout in relationships to prioritizing self-care & overcoming guilt tied to household responsibilities, Dr. Morgan offers a roadmap for balancing it all. In this episode, Dr. Morgan dives into modern gender dynamics, shifting relationship roles, the power of appreciation, & the nuances of effective communication.   To Watch the Show click HERE   For Detailed Show Notes visit TSCPODCAST.COM   To connect with Dr. Morgan Cutlip click HERE   To connect with Lauryn Bosstick click HERE   To connect with Michael Bosstick click HERE   Read More on The Skinny Confidential HERE   Get your burning questions featured on the show! Leave the Him & Her Show a voicemail at [phone].   This episode is brought to you by The Skinny Confidential   Head to the HIM & HER Show ShopMy page HERE and LTK page HERE to find all of Michael and Lauryn's favorite products mentioned on their latest episodes.   To learn more about Dr. Morgan Cutlip and purchase her latest book, A Better Share, click HERE.   This episode is sponsored by The Skinny Confidential   Optimize your daily beauty routine. Shop The Skinny Confidential Mouth Tape at shoptheskinnyconfidential.com.   This episode is sponsored by Smart Mouth   Find SmartMouth at Walgreens, Walmart, Amazon or visit smartmouth.com/skinny to snag a special discount on your next SmartMouth purchase.   This episode is sponsored by NOBULL   Visit nobullproject.com/tsc for 30% off your entire order.    This episode is sponsored by Primal Kitchen   Head to primalkitchen.com/skinny to save 20% off your next online order with code SKINNY at checkout.   This episode is sponsored by Cymbiotika   Go to Cymbiotika.com/TSC for 20% off + free shipping.   This episode is sponsored by Skims   Check out SKIMS best intimates including the Fits Everybody Collection and more at skims.com/skinny #skimspartner   Produced by Dear Media

The following podcast is a dear media production. She's a lifestyle blogger extraordinaire. Fantastic. And he's a serial entrepreneur. A very smart cookie. And now Lauren Everts and Michael Bostic are bringing you along for the ride. Get ready for some major realness. Welcome to the skinny confidential, him and her.

Welcome back again to the skinny confidential, him and her show. Today we have a special guest, relationship expert, and educator who's here to drop some serious knowledge on us, Dr. Morgan Cutlip, who specializes in helping couples navigate everything from the mental load of parenting to improving communication, intimacy, and overall mental well-being. Today, we'll be diving into why so many people feel lonely, how your home environment might be affecting your mental health, and how to have crucial conversations that can take your relationships and sex life to the next level. Get ready for an insightful conversation on how to redefine your relationship dynamics and take back your power and love, intimacy and life. Dr. Morgan,

welcome to the show. This is the skinny confidential, him and her. Something a lot of people, I think, don't even realize is that they're burnt out. Like, they don't even know it's a burnout. What do you think contributes to a burnout? How do you even define it? Burnout, burnout, so in motherhood is like kind of where I specialize with burnout. And burnout often just sounds like the regular stuff we attribute to being a mom.

So forgetfulness, irritability, like inability to, like, track where stuff is. You don't even know why I'm in here anymore. That is a major symptom of burnout. So, familiar? Very familiar. I don't know where I've seen that before. Well, there's usually three areas. So it's your cognitive.

So almost like you lack some space in your brain to manage the stuff. And then there's the emotional, which is like you cannot seem to manage your emotions because you don't have as much capacity to kind of put toward regulation, things like that. And then there's just the physical. So your body, like women, I think something like 80% of autoimmune diseases exist in women. A lot of our emotional state and our kind of mental well-being will come out in our physical body. And so a lot of times that's the other piece of burnout.

You'll feel it. You'll be like, I just feel so burnt out. It'll start showing up in your back. It will start showing up in your gut, all these other areas. So what do you tell people to do when they hit all these three symptoms? There's lots of places you can intervene. But I talk about it in my first book with moms, and I teach moms and it really applies to anybody, which is that you have to become a really good manager of yourself.

Because we tend to just go so hard into our motherhood. our work, are all of these things. We pour into others. Women specifically are like really socialized to sort of sacrifice themselves for the preservation of their relationships. So you have to get good at being a self-manager, which you're like, you are the epitome of being so good at this. I listen to so many episodes and it's like you have your morning routine. You've got your stuff. But I encourage people you got to do like a self-scan every single day. What's going on with me? what's going on with my physical self, my emotional, my mental, and then you make little tweaks to kind of correct or you define it, you put a pin in it, come back to it later.

Like you take an inventory. You take inventory. Yeah. I think also too as you get older, you start to be like, okay, my energy thermometer is at 75% today. This is what's actually going to be able to happen with that 75%. and the rest is like going to, it's going to, I'm not going to be able to do it. And I'll give you an example. Like, some text messages that I have right now haven't been returned for two months. And it's not that I'm like going out of my way to not return them.

I just, like you said, only have so much capacity in one day. And, you know, my kids, my husband, my work, my family comes number one. and then like I can get to it when I can get to it. Yeah. And I know that it's not even a boundary and I'm not even trying to be mean. No, it's just kind of like an assessment of your capacity, having some good self-awareness, which most people actually don't have that good of self-awareness, so they don't check in on that stuff. That's going to be my book. It's going to be all about self-awareness. I think it would be a great book.

Yeah, I think self-awareness is lacking in society. Are you going to do a chapter on yourself at how you look at yourself in elevators and Don't look at me. No, my husband does that. I'm very self-aware that I do that. Okay. What about restaurants? I don't lie about it.

When we're on a date and there's a mirror behind, he will talk to himself. I once clocked it. For two hours, he talked to himself in the mirror. I'm like, we're on a date. That's an exaggeration. Is that going to be in your books? It was only like an hour and a half. Oh, okay.

My husband has a face he makes at himself in the mirror. What's the face? Like blue steel, like that. Like, I'll be talking to him, like a serious conversation. and he'll be like, it's out of the mirror. It's out of the mirror. Like, what are you doing? I know. I have to, I have to like. He's like, how's my hair? I'm like, well, listen, I got to, you got to build inner confidence.

Well, okay. So when people start taking a self-inventory and they start really being self-aware of their capacity, what have you seen change from this? When you're aware of your capacity and you can make adjustments, and all of this, then you can show up in your relationships as more of a whole person. I mean, the thing is, is like, especially for women, this whole concept of self-sacrificing for everyone else completely backfires. We do it in a way to sort of care for the people we love most, care for our kids,

care for our partners, all these things. And then we end up being the worst versions of ourselves when we do this. So we get grouchy, we lose our cool, we get resentful toward our partners. And so when you start assessing your energy in all these different areas, not just that, but these other areas, and you start making some space to care for them and to make some adjustments, then you can actually show up in your relationships in a way that actually benefits them. And it feels good to you because like when we show up in our relationships as our worst selves, we end up feeling really crappy about who we are. And so then that just becomes this like layered effect of feeling really crappy about ourselves. our relationships and especially how we show up in motherhood. I agree. I mean, I totally, totally agree with everything you're saying. I think when I noticed myself getting like a teapot,

you know that sound the teapot makes. Oh yeah. When I feel that, I have a place I go. I literally will just be like, I'm going to the foot spa. No one can find me there. Like no one talks. I'm not going to run into anyone. And I just go there and I will work for two hours. How much does guilt factor into all this? Because a lot of the themes, and I speak to a lot of women and work with a lot of women, like, I hear the topic or the theme of guilt populating way more with the women I'm around than with the men. And I'm not like past, I'm just. No, I think that's true.

100%. Maybe men don't have as, don't feel as much or don't address it as much. But like the theme of guilt pops up a lot of time, at least with the women in my life. Yeah. So I think the reason why that we see it more with women is. is that men and women are socialized very differently. And even though some of it seems kind of archaic, it still is true to this day

that we just kind of like absorb these socializations. So I feel like men are socialized to provide and protect. So if a man's like doing that, he's like, I check the boxes. Everything else is kind of bonus. But then I'm not feeling guilty because I'm doing what I'm supposed to do. Like my husband, he travels every week for work. I remember once I was like, don't you feel guilty? Like leaving the kids, like they barely get to see you.

And he's like, you know, for me. minute, but this is my job. She asked me the same thing all the time. This is what I do. If I leave once a month for one night, I feel guilty. Yeah, because. I'll think about it all month. We are socialized to be caretakers of relationships, of our home, of these, to be

the nurturers. So we feel like we are somehow neglecting our role. And so that's, I think, what is a huge contributor to guilt for women, but then men don't feel it in the same way. Yeah, because I guess, like, when you, like, when you asked that question to your husband, if you were asking that to me, initially when I go somewhere, I'm like, oh, I feel bad because you know they don't want me to leave and it's like tougher them. Yeah. But then I rationalize like, well, I need to do this because this is like how we're providing and how we're building a life

for our family. And so it's like that kind of outweighs in the long run, the guilt of leaving for a day or two. When Towns looks at you with his blue eyes with tears and his eyes like that emoji and says, I don't want you to go to work. You don't feel guilty. I grab by the arm and I say, listen, buddy, tough enough. I don't know. Someone's got to make the money. Even when I go to work for a couple hours. No, no, no, I mean, listen, like, any parent, it, like, it, like, rips your heart out. But at the same time, like, I'm able to rationalize real quickly. Yes.

Like, it's not like I'm going off on a golf trip or skiing. I don't have that. I'm like, I'm going to. Wow. My husband does that. And it's still, like, but you always. I mean, from the, but I do. Okay, so let's, like, break down the guilt.

So guilt is a feeling that you've sort of violated some standard you hold yourself to. Okay. Okay. So there's two kinds. There is, like, deserved guilt. which is when you've done something wrong. And this is a good type of guilt. You deserve it.

You did something wrong. It prompts you to change your behavior to, like, repair. Okay. Right? Then there's undeserved guilt, which is almost all the mom guilt, which is basically some set of standards or expectations you hold yourself to that have just like gone totally extreme. Like, so if you think about this statement,

a good mom should, and then you just fill in the blank with all the things, you probably have all of these really extreme. and impossible standards you'd fill in. It's out of control. Yeah. So a good mom should never leave her kids, not even for a moment. A good mom should never have to use a sitter. A good mom should.

We have these wild and impossible standards that we hold ourselves to. And then when we have to do something that contradicts, all this guilt comes rushing in. But the reality is, that's just not true. Like, that's not true. A good mom is like a blend of all sorts of things. And you can be a wonderful mom and still sometimes leave your kids. So we have to, as women, whether your mom or not, you have to challenge, like, what you're doing. Women have to do that to challenge the standards.

I will also say something that may not be so popular with this audience. We had Ivanka Trump on recently. There was a clip going around where she was just talking about how when her kids were younger, she was, like, this time around with the administration, she doesn't want to go and put her kids through it because they're older now. But before she was okay. And there are so many women commenting to her about, like, how this is not a good way to, parent. And like what I've noticed is a lot more women than men. And this is just the observance that I've seen on our channels are quick to judge other women about their parenting. Like I've never

seen any of my guy friends ever judge any other man or woman on parenting. But a lot of women are really tough on other women if it's counter to maybe the way they parent or think about parenting. Well, it's projection. It's not it's a lot of time. It's likely not so helpful and probably reinforces a lot of the guilt because you have a giant population. I actually don't give a shit what anyone says. That's not my problem. I don't give you shit what anyone says. No, but I'm just saying like, if you... I just feel guilty because my kids are so cute and I feel bad and they're little and I'm like, oh, I have to go to work. What I'm saying is like if you're talking about like reinforcing that guilt, if you have a giant part of the population kind of doing that...

100%. Then it's just going to continue to be a problem. So maybe it's like a frequency. Yes. Yeah. And I think too, like if you already feel this stuff and then there is society kind of like the chatter of all these women and society. being like, how dare you do these things? It's just going to amplify. It's just going to amplify that guilt, make it harder, harder to move through it. Michael, tell everyone the quote that you have in your Instagram bio because it's good.

What? Oh, my. Yeah. Oh, well, this is like not related to it. I think it's very relevant. Well, my dad used to say all the time, like, if, like, somebody was saying something to you or, like, you know, criticizing you or whatever it may be. It would say, listen, the coyote's hell and the caravan keeps moving. Like, it's just like.

It's true. That's like you have to look at social media. Oh, gosh. Yeah. We have a lot of life you have to look at like that. Everybody keeps moving. Yeah. She's got to let it go.

How did you become interested in all of these topics? Because they're niche topics. Yeah. Because I lived to them. So I've been in the field of relationships for over 20 years. Wow. So I don't want to get in the weeds on this, but my dad's in this field. And I grew up going to school with him as he was working on his PhD.

Cool. And we play this game where he would get. give me like a case and he'd be like, how are you going to help the family? What do you think is going on with a son? And I would analyze it. So I kind of grew up just with a love for this type of work. And then he started doing courses about relationships before like everybody and their cousin had a course.

And I would travel with him and teach with him sometimes and all these things. So we worked together for a very long time. But when I became a mom, I was just completely blind. by how intense that transition was for me. And just it doesn't really end. People say like, there's a transition into motherhood, but then it just like keeps going and then you just have these other ones. But I was so caught off guard by the amount of responsibilities that increased. It's jarring. It's jarring. My anxiety, I am not an anxious person and I had so much worry. The guilt, I struggled so hard with that for a long time. I don't really have it much anymore.

So that's the one piece. After that, that, sort of major hit, I was like, okay, I know what I want to do. I want to help women in their relationships. And I'm going to start with motherhood because this is gnarly. And nobody's talking about really how to navigate this in a new way. The second piece to that is like, it rocks your marriage, at least for me it did. And just the amount of responsibilities that happened overnight. And I was so bad at involving my husband. And he was traveling. It's a long story, but we got relocated to California. So we had like eight months of our daughter's life where we were separate. And so he wasn't just like there for that. And I just remember being like, I don't even

know like I love you, but I don't even really like you right now. And like, why am I doing everything? And why do I know how to, I'm the keeper of all the information, like what is going on? And so were these two experiences where I was like, we got to do some work here. We need support. And so it just, yeah, speaks to me in that way. I can honestly say, if Michael didn't help me, 50%, I don't know I would want to be married. I mean, with kids, like, it's really hard when you're doing it all your own. I can totally see how women get resentful, especially if they're working and bringing in half the income. Yes.

Because if the guy can't even change a diaper, I mean, I've had friends where they're like, my my husband won't change a diaper, he won't make a bottle. I'm like, that would be a huge problem for me. It's a huge problem. Yeah, I think it would be, I honestly think it would be divorce. Well, I think a lot of people, both men and women, and the reason some struggle when they become parents is like, you nailed it on it. Like, your life alters and has changed permanently. And it's not going to ever go back to the way it was before.

Like, I think some people struggle with making peace with the fact that like your life is different. your relationships different, your responsibility's different. And it's like for the rest of your life. Hopefully, you're like your kids. Would he help when he was home? Yeah, but it was almost like, and he is, I talk about this in my second book, but he was like passively willing. So he's like, you know what I mean?

Where he's just kind of like, well, tell me what to do. Show me how to do it. Like he just wasn't like jumping in. And part of it was my fault too. Like I fully, we got to take ownership in our relationships. I fully take ownership that I kind of was like, never mind. I'll take care of it. Or you don't do it.

the right way or all the things that we can sometimes do. So I think it really just made the transition that much harder. I've heard a lot of women say, oh, you don't, like, they don't do it the way I want it. Yeah. When I was postpartum, I didn't give a shit if you put the diaper on the head. But that serves you though. I was like, I don't care how you do it. Just make sure it's organic and clean. Do you remember? I was like, figure it out, go YouTube it. Like, I've heard a lot of women say that. Don't be clicking candy into that mic. It's not. It's a throat coat drop. I can't.

That soothes my throat because I've been talking for a week. I don't want to hear any more bad reviews about you clicking candy. They'll be reviews. But I can see why there is room to be resentful. And I also can see the man's side. Like, they don't know what to do. Oh my gosh. Sometimes.

Sometimes they deal. It's tricky. Well, I think like for many men it doesn't come naturally. Yeah. And then you're like, oh, well. You would have carried the baby for me. No, I mean, you know what? I think, though, for me, I had a sister that was a decade younger than me.

Okay. You know what I mean? So, like, I grew up with a baby, and I remember spending a lot of time with her. So, like, I think it was just normal, like, it was normal for me to be around babies. Yeah. You know? But for a lot of guys, they've never, they've never done. A lot of men, the first baby they ever hold is their baby.

Is their baby? That's wild. That was the first baby I held, pretty much was my baby. I mean, yeah. I mean, so. I'm like, what do you do with this? But you, like, you've done certain things. probably not even aware of what you're doing that actually really helped you, which is that you

were like, you figure it out, I'm not worried, I'm not going to criticize you, I'm not going to micromanage you, not going to judge it. And also, though, I'm going to make you figure it out. And I think that a lot of new moms especially struggle to kind of let go the reins a little bit for whatever reason, hormones, just change, you just whatever, all the worry. And so they don't involve their partners in the beginning and then their partners don't jump in enough. and then they end up being the one who carries all that stuff. Well, it's kind of like, hey, stay out of it, hands off. And then like, hey, you've been staying out of it, hands off, and I'm mad at you.

And it's like it's mixed messaging. Totally. I will say, though, even if you do have a partner that steps up to the plate 50%, it still does take a toll on your marriage to have a new baby. Because you're sleep deprived. Yeah. If you're working, that's a whole situation. If you work together, that's a whole situation.

I think that it's a chapter. Honestly, I think you have to work twice as hard, if not more, in a relationship after you have kids than before. Yeah. Yes. Like it's because of a lot of time, because we talk about this all the time, you can start to just be like, oh, we're just parents now. Yeah. As opposed to like watering the relationship. Yeah.

Yeah. And like the relationship can start to become really transactional instead of actually feeling romantic or even like a relationship anymore. So it takes a whole lot more work. For me, like, I gained 60 pounds with those by babies. Same. You don't feel like getting on a strip pole and putting on your kitten heels and, like, bending over in lingerie. It's, like, right away. Yeah.

I need to, like, get my act together and, like, like, could you go down the street to a happy ending? No, I'm just kidding. Go to the foot spa. So don't install the strip pole in the bedroom right now? I mean, wait a bit. You got to wait a bit. It matches my aesthetic. What if you found in the good things that work in a marriage are?

Like, what are the points that you see that are the common denominators of things that are really working? Oh, my goodness. That's a great question. So I think there's a handful of things. So one is you have to get really good at talking about your relationship. This is like a crazy big issue for couples. Is that off? This is the typical dynamic is that the woman will come to the man with like whatever,

something she wants to change or a need that she has and it immediately spirals into defensiveness. Or you'll have like the hardship Olympics. Oh, I'm tired to and like blah, blah, blah, blah. We have that every night. The hardship Olympics, what's that? The hardship Olympics is where you're both competing for who has it worse. No, no. Lauren, you, this is your sport.

I like will just, I'm like, I'm tired. be like, well, I'm pregnant and tired. I'm like, okay, but I'm still tired. You know? I will always be more tired than you. They do say women need more sleep than men. Because her brains are busier. Yeah.

Like, anytime. Not to take her side. There's a meme. It's like, I knew I was, I know I was, I know I know I'm tired, but I also know I'll never be as tired as my wife is tired. Yeah. Yeah. He told me his hair hurt when I was 10 months pregnant.

That's not what I meant. What did you mean? I meant like my, like, you know, like when you're like, when you, you feel the little achy and then your like hair feels like it's like. Yeah. Yeah. Shut the fuck up. That your hair hurt.

I looked at him. I thought he was joking. Anyways, go ahead. The hardship Olympics. What else? Okay. So, yeah, you got to be able to talk about your relationship. And part of that requires this sort of mindset shift.

So here's the thing about life and relationships is that we are always getting out of balance. Life is always pulling us apart. It's like the good stuff, having another baby. right, the joyful things, the work stuff, all of like the normal, the tragic, the amazing things about life will just always be sort of pulling our relationship apart. And so we have to get really good at recalibrating or balancing. But part of this means that your relationship always needs something. And so if we can just embody that mindset, when our partner's like, hey, I want to talk to you about something I need or whatever, we're like, well, that makes sense because our relationships

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just protein and veggies taste amazing. Of course, we have an offer. Head to primalcitchen.com slash skinny to save 20% off your next online order with code skinny at checkout. That's P-R-I-M-A-L. Kitchen.com slash skinny and use code, Skinny. Primal Kitchen products are also available in stores nationwide. So visit primalcitchen.com slash skinny to find a location near you. So what are some examples, maybe things that, you've needed or your husband's needed. And Michael, you can chime in here too, that that you've needed at a certain point and how has it changed? Like, give us a chapter of that. So for me, I feel like I've always kind of needed the same thing. It just took me like 10 years to figure out how to

communicate it properly. And what was that? I wanted, so what I figured out was that I wanted him to express things to me that let me know I was visible and valued in our relationship. So I'd be like, oh, I would like some more appreciation. And he'd be like, okay, words of gratitude, whatever. Gratitude? Thank you. Yeah. And affirmation, that's what's important for it.

And so we'd be like, oh, you know, you're a good wife. And I was like, what? Whatever. Like, that's not a meaningful thing to say. I know, but you need to think harder. Right. The Thoris. Yeah, yes.

I'm going to get him at the Thoris for Christmas. Yeah. Well, I'll give you the ultimate compliment formula. Okay. Okay. So you can just apply this. Okay. Okay.

Hold on. This is the most important podcast you've ever done. Are your ears awake? Are you ready? I got to use a rational. My hair hurts. My hair hurts. Okay.

So it's observation. Observation. And I'll give you an example. Plus how it makes your life better. That is the best way. How it makes her life or my life better? Your life better. Okay.

So I'll just make something up, okay? So it might be like, I see how you prepped all of the snacks for our kids today before we left for work. I'm so grateful you do that because I didn't even have to worry about it. and I know how well you take care of our kids. Thank you. So I can say I came home and I saw you organizing my bathroom drawers and it makes my life so much easier knowing where to find everything. Knowing where to find everything.

It's not pubic hair. It's my face clip. It's my face clipping. It looks like pubic hair. It's my beard clippings. Oh, fuck. God. Could you get another bathroom in another house?

I'm trying to give a heartfelt compliment right now. But no, you're doing it. And that feels, I mean, I don't know. Does that feel good to you? That's not my favorite one. I think they're not the bathroom organization. I think that I clean your bathroom drawers. No, okay, fine.

I think we get a little more creative. I will say this one. I'd be like, okay, we just went to our daughter's birthday party, and I saw how much effort you put into the invitations and into the party, and it was so special, and that enhanced her party in our lives so much, right? And you're grateful for how well she cares for your kids. And I'm grateful for how well you care for our kids. If you did that once a day, your life would improve 50%.

It makes a difference. It's literally... Once a day is a little tall order, Lauren. It's not a tall of an order. Okay. It's not a tall. Okay. Can we time that?

How long did that take you? I don't know. That took a lot of... 10 seconds. I just did a whole board presentation. That was easier than this. I'm just kidding. I can do it.

I can do it. That's good feedback. I can... Let's do a challenge. Let me add one more piece to it. So it can be observation, plus how it makes your life better. Or it can be a question. This one even, this is bonus.

This is like bonus. A quality about Lauren that you appreciate or makes your life better. Okay. You know, it's funny because I... You probably are going to get laid way more now. Like, just that little change. I won't be able to get off that dick if you give me a compliment every single day. I love compliments.

I know. Well, you know what's funny is because like I think I'm not so unique, but a lot of men maybe don't require as many compliments. And so it's somewhat foreign language. That's so wrong. I don't agree with that. Well, I don't require that many compliments. You don't even know the compliments I give you that are subtle because you don't even know it's the compliment. That's how good I am.

This is an argument that my husband I had for 10 years. He'd be like, I just don't need them. Yeah. And I'm like, you already get them. That is such a lie that you don't need compliments. I don't need that many compliments. Listen, I have a fully Japanese grandmother and a half Japanese mother compliments in our house where we're rarefied. That's why I make it subtle.

I know that. But it does, it's, you know. So I'll give you one example He'll walk in in a suit And like kind of like brush it up Like a like a what like a puff? What are those puffins? And he

He won't say anything but they're looking for there There's an undertone that they're looking for a little Something. Yeah. And then I'll like be like, wow That looks really good on you. That color looks great. Do you know what I mean?

Like you can tell when you guys need a compliment. Okay. I'm brach telling you. Or I'll be like your hairline's so great. You love that one. Oh, you love a good hairline compliment. Don't, go on. Okay.

So, always only I don't know. What can, on the other side, what can women do? Should we be doing this compliment strategy as well? That's a good question. So in my book on the mental load, I talk about what both men and women want in their relationships. And for men, I say it's three primary things. So hopefully you don't. say you disagree.

Well, let's hear him. So the first is peace. They don't like, they don't like a lot of arguing. That's part of the issue. I'm not the one, to be honest. Yeah, that's the first one I talk about. That's smart.

Yes. And it's part of the reason why a lot of times, like when you come to talk, like if a woman comes to talk to her husband, kind of spirals, it's because they like don't mess with the piece. Okay. The second is affection,

which then, you know, also sex is part of that. And then the third is respect. Yeah. I think that's probably like, Taylor, would you agree? Affection for Taylor's blowjrops, but... Yeah, well, that fits with that category. Yeah, I think that that's...

No, but it's funny to you because, like, I see... Like, I have two younger sisters, and I would always tell them, like, don't bring a bunch of unnecessary drama. Like, just don't... Yes, they don't do it. Like, don't do it. Like, I know, like, some people think it's funny,

bring the game, do the drama. But at some point, the guys can be like, I don't have time for this. I like a sliver. Yeah, but it's, like, you know, like, if it's constant all the time, Like if your relationship becomes a source of anxiety or a place where you're showing up, you're like, oh my God, here I go again with this person.

Like at some point- It's too chaotic. Yeah, people just, they don't want it. Yeah. Especially men. What are mistakes that you see people constantly making in marriage? Besides not complimenting their wife every day in that way that you specifically said. I feel like this is like a whole episode on this question alone.

So, okay, I'll start with one. One is that a lot of times in our relationship, we don't give until we get. So if we are wanting something different from our partner, then we're like, we're going to hold out in another area until they start to come my way. So we sort of get in these standoffs a lot of times in relationships. And so that will like, that will pretty quickly erode your connection and closeness. I think too, we kind of villainize our partners a lot. I think we start to like, especially after you've been married a while, if you sort of get in these bad attitudes and they sort of really take root in your relationship,

we can start to kind of make our partner the enemy. And so then we start to see everything they do through this lens that they are. So maybe it's like, my partner's so selfish. So this lens clicks in. We see everything they do through this selfish lens. We make assumptions about what they say or what they do through this lens. And so we don't do a good job in our relationships of actually checking our perception of our partner and cleaning that out, resetting it pretty regularly, focusing on the ways that they make our life better, focusing on the ways that they are showing up, or even

giving them the benefit of the doubt. We need to give way more gracious interpretations of our partner's behavior. I think sometimes when you're in a relationship for a long time, like every little thing just starts to stand out. Yeah. And it is hard, but I totally agree with you the way if you can like almost like start with a blank slate in the morning and like reset. Yeah. And think really positive things and see them from a different perspective. It's helpful. Okay, so you want me getting the weeds on this one?

Yeah. Because this is, like, I think one of the most powerful things in relationships. So you think about anybody you are in a relationship with. So you can do each other, but you do this with your kids too. So we start to sketch a, like, sort of like an internal picture of the person we're in a relationship with, like a mental picture of them. And it's like a caricature. So, you know, like caricatures of presidents.

It's always like, you know, Trump's hair or bombs ears or whatever, they make them super big. So as we sketch the caricature, we start to enhance certain qualities and really focus in on those. And then we minimize all the others. And a lot of times when you're starting to get bugged by everything, you're enhancing some of those really negative qualities. And so then it's like all that you see. So that becomes like these glasses almost you wear that you interpret everything through. So like we have to see the positive. We have to shift our focus onto the areas we're kind of neglecting to pay attention to that are really good.

And we have to reset it regularly. That makes total sense. I hope my character looks like Jessica Rabbit in your head. No, but it's, I think this is like for anything that, you know, I think as humans, everybody falls in the trap where you just look at life through your own perspective, your own perceptions. And people start to fail to look at life through the. of those around them. I think it's actually a much more powerful way to think to try to put yourself in somebody else's shoes and see the situation as they see it.

Yeah. Because like it's arguable that if you're just looking at something the way you see it, you're likely missing most of the picture. Oh my gosh, yes, because everything is kind of subjective. So I think if couples, I caught like the one minute moment, if every day you spent one minute, like you set your phone, you just did this for one minute, you just closed your eyes and you you imagined what is going on with your partner that day and you just practice getting in their perspective. What are they worrying about? What's going on in their world? What are they stressing

about, you know, what's on their plate for the day? It will dramatically change your relationship because we don't do that. We're just in our world. Then we come together. Then we have the hardship Olympics and then we get annoyed with each other and then the disconnection grows. It's funny. Like even like this is like a random side example, but if I'm doing a business deal with someone, I'll maybe think like 10% of the time on like what I want to happen and the outcome I'm looking for. And then I'll spend like 90% of the thought thinking about like what they would want to happen. And then from there you're able to kind of structure something.

Yeah. That's much easier to push through if that makes sense. Yes. Because you're like you're starting with their perspective and like what will work for them. And obviously you want to have a win for yourself as well. But if you're just constantly thinking like this is what I need to win. Yeah. You're not thinking about them at all.

It's likely you're not going to be able to figure something out. Well, probably gives you an edge because not everybody. thinks that way. So when you're already kind of like, well, what's going to serve them or what are they thinking about or what do I need to like overcome in terms of their objections? It's, you're probably already in a winning spot. You had a viral moment on your Instagram. Talking about when you ask your partners for help, but it doesn't get done. Do you mean like a honey do list? What is that? What does that mean? Can you talk to us about that? So do you know the concept of the mental load? No, tell us about it. You don't?

No. Okay. Okay. Okay. This is like, can I get in the weeds? Yes. Okay. This is the podcast. All right, let's do it.

So I'll give you the 30,000 foot definition and then I'll get in the weeds on this because it's kind of important to understand. So the mental load is the seemingly never ending running to do list that we carry around in our minds. And it has two major components. One, the majority of it is invisible. And two, it takes up cognitive real estate. So it like crowds out. other just like room for other things remembering things regulating your emotions getting in the mood for sex all the stuff crowds it out everybody has a mental load in the home and family life usually

women carry it so okay I feel like I carry a little bit of mental well you guys have talked about doing things 50 50 50 he Michael's very maternal that's great that works for you yeah yeah I can't tell if that's a compliment or not it is a compliment or not it is a I think it is. Yeah. Yeah. Like today, our son had to go to the pediatrician. I took him the pediatrician.

Yeah. You're mature. I appreciate that. I think it's great. Go ahead. Real mother goose over here. And I don't think, like, 50-50 doesn't work for every couple. No.

But it does have to feel fair. Because if you don't feel like it's fair, that's when you'll build that sort of animosity. Yeah. We also have a different situation. We do a show together. Yeah. Well, I want to be help. I mean, especially now, like, she's carrying.

another child and like I don't you know I wanted to be comfortable as comfortable as can be. Yeah. So go ahead. I also don't think like I know this is like I don't see it that big of a deal to go like change diapers and things. It's not. I also don't want my kid running around with a dirty diaper. No. Then you get a rash. Then you got a whole other. Yeah. You got you you're you treat towns like your little Ken doll with you do his hair. Yeah. Like here's your baby doll. Go ahead. Okay. Well this you might not know much about this. if you feel like this is really well handled in your relationship, but this is a massive issue for a ton of couples.

Okay. So if we get in the weeds on the mental load, a lot of times what happens is like the guys will say yeah, so that's life. Life's busy. Make a list, knock it out and kind of move on. And the women will feel kind of silly for like, why am I so overwhelmed when this is just like basic life stuff, doing the laundry, like picking up the kids, all the stuff. So this is the In the Weeds.

There are three domains of tasks with the mental load. There's the physical that's like cooking dinner, doing the laundry, mowing the lawn, stuff like that. There's the mental, which is like the making of lists. So if you're like work, your work life, a lot of that's mental. And then the third, so if you imagine them like circles, so we're doing like a Venn diagram. The third is the emotional.

And this is the, like this is the kicker. because the emotional is like the regular ongoing calculations, typically women, not always, maybe you're really good at this, are doing, thinking about the experiences of members of their family. So they're trying to like maximize positive experiences. So like, for example, you know, oh, if we pull our kid out of this school for a better school academically, are we going to like scar them for life because they are going to miss their friends? Or if we don't, are we going to scar them for life because they now like don't have as good of an education. It's like all of these sort of mental calculations. What about even micro moments,

like even like breakfast? Like, oh my gosh. I don't want phones at the table. I want to talk about what we're grateful for. Yes, thinking about that even. Tiny little moments like that everywhere. You know what I was thinking as you were talking. Like I don't think this is not an issue in our marriage, but I think one thing that we do primarily because we get to talk to so many people like yourself is we talk about a lot of this stuff. So it's on my radar. You know what I mean? Like if I imagine if we didn't talk to people like yourself and I didn't talk to her about this of as often. It would probably not. I've never heard someone explain it though like this. But you know what I mean? As a guy, like it would probably like go over my head. But because we talk about it so often, I'm

aware of it. So maybe like that's why we're able to manage it together. Yeah. And I'll just, just to like round it out where these three circles come together, where they overlap, that's, I call it the triple threat. And the majority of tasks in the home and family life, it goes back to what you're saying with these micro moments include all three domains. So like when a woman's like, I don't know why I'm so overwhelmed and it kind of can be like judging herself for feeling overwhelmed. It's like, well, yeah, because like every little thing you do in your home and family life can be unpacked to include tasks from all of these three areas. So when you do that for everything that goes on in a home and family, it's like no wonder women are burned out and overwhelmed or no wonder

just like family life can be so stressful. I also think. think, and I'm going to be really honest, I have a lot of help. Totally. Yeah. And I cannot imagine. And I said this to my nanny the other day. I cannot imagine not having help. She raised three children with no help. We talk about it all the time. She used to bring her daughter to her job and her daughter used to help her at nine years old. And she tells me all of these stories about being a single mother and having no help from a man and being pregnant and having to bring her small daughter and her daughter having to help her. And I'm sure that set her daughter up who's now successful for success in a lot of ways.

Yeah. But I have extreme empathy for people that don't have help because I'm lucky enough to be able to delegate and say, hey, can you, you know, help me with this. Can you help me with this? To not have that. And I have help from him 50%. Yeah. To not have that is, it's, I can't imagine. Right.

For a woman. Well, the way that I think about, like, we would not be able to do what we do for a living without it. Right. Like, it would be impossible. I don't feel like I have to justify it. I'm not just, I just feel like I have to say like, fuck, if you don't have any help and you don't have any, if you maybe you don't have a husband either. Yeah. I'm not even justifying.

And I'm just saying, like, if we didn't, there would be sacrifices that would be need to be made in other areas. And so I can imagine how hard that is. You know what I mean? Yeah. Because like we would literally have to say, okay, like, you know, we both work at the same time. It's almost like impossible to have a job. Yes. Because it's like, I don't know, it's a full 360 immersive job at home.

Yes. And then to run a house and like you're saying, keep it clean, do the laundry, mow the grass, it's a lot. Yeah, I mean, like the demands of modern family life are, I mean, then you like roll in all the peripheral stuff, like the expectations that we have for ourselves because we're constantly consuming content that makes us feel like we're falling short and all this stuff. So it feels almost insurmountable because this is not like how we used to live life, you know, in this way with these crazy expectations for ourselves and our family and our home and our kids' behavior and what we look

like and all, you know, all the things. We didn't used to exist this way. We are, women are working at higher rates than ever before, which is great, but also more demands on families. and you need support to be able to kind of like do all the things. And I think it's just become nearly impossible. And that's partly why women are struggling and why couples are struggling is that modern family life is just absolutely relentless. It's a lot. And then it's like blue day at school and you dress them in red. It's spirit week at my school. And it's like, strawberry snack day make snowmen and you got to bring that

and then you got to pack a lunch it's on and on and on where as no offense the man's a little more oh no I showed up at school there day and the teacher hit me with what's going on for snack day and I was like a deer in headlight I had no idea which I was like I'm we picked Valentine's Day

for snack day because my daughter and I are obsessed with holidays and she asked you that and you didn't even like well listen that's most men don't know about the school snack day I was she might as well been speaking Mandarin to me. I had no idea what she was talking about. You could have been like, we're going to do a strawberry strudel heart-shaped cookie. We're going to be doing heart shapes with with whipped cream around the strawberries. You could have got creative with it. I didn't even know, yeah, well. You didn't even know about snack day. No, I didn't even know about snack day. Okay, so this is like,

okay, this is what she's saying. Coming back, like, we totally veered from the original question, and I'm probably still not going to hit it yet, but part of the complaint of women is that men, say things like, well, I don't know. And so it excuses them from having to participate or take care of any of these things. I'm not saying that you're doing that, but it was just a perfect example. And part of it is that I think where men need to shift,

women need to shift too around this area of the relationship, where men need to shift, is they have to get better at being in the know of what's going on in the home and family life. But let me give you the reverse. What if I showed up, I'm like, it's snack day? Like, is that what women want either? You're like, I don't know about that.

I don't know. Yeah, you bring up a good point. If he came home and he goes, time for some bills to pay, I'd be like, get the fuck away from me. I'm in my house. Because I like to be in my feminine in my house. What if I popped out? I was like, I made the strawberry struddles. Oh my gosh.

But even with bills, I don't want to be involved. I think sometimes women got to be careful with what they. Sometimes you got to be careful with what you're asking for. Yes. Because there is a little bit of a testosterone issue going on with with some. in my sugar. Yeah. We can't blame it all in the seed oils, but.

Soy milk. I think some things you should just be like, okay, like, this is maybe going to sound sexist, but maybe there is some areas that men should not be involved in and some. I actually agree with you on this, which is a little bit maybe controversial. No, it's not anymore. It's not anymore. But like, I... If my son, like, say he's going to go, like, I don't know, he wants to go play football.

Like, do, I don't know. Like, I'm sure, like, mom could show up to support, but, like, I don't know. Maybe, like, that's an area where I could, like, spend a little more time with him. Not that I'm the greatest. You know what I mean? Like, just think like there are some areas. Like, you want to take them hunting? No.

Yeah. Right. Well, I think, okay, so with a topic of the mental load, what I see, like, if you start consuming any content online about this topic, it always villainizes the men. It's like, oh, they, you know, just divorce them. It's basically like the solution that everybody suggests. Great advice. Yeah.

It's like really, really, honestly, as like in this field, it's incredibly frustrating. And it's not productive. criticism is not a great starting point for change. So, like, why are we doing that? It makes no sense to me. And I think, so my book approaches it completely differently, which says it's you two versus the world. Life is busy.

Life is hard. Get aligned together. And then you attack it together. And the other piece is, like, if we make men the villains, what are we the victims? Like, I'm not down with that. Like, women have a ton of power to make changes in their relationships on their own. I am not down where this like victim stands where we have like no sense of agency in our relationship. So we have to be so careful.

And I think along with what you're saying, sometimes especially online, we'll see all this content about like wanting men to level up in some pretty big ways. And I'm not opposed to it. There are some men out there that are pieces of work that need to do some work. But we do have to be careful. If we expect men to be like replicas of women emotionally, we are not going to find it attractive. We're not going to be down with that. No, I don't, I think, I think that's what people are seeing. I don't, I don't need you to be doing snack day.

I'm good. Well, it's good because that's good you don't because I'm not. But, but let me caveat that way. When I do snack day and it looks like Disney on ice. Yeah, I'll be complimentary. And the cookies have the smoke coming off of them. and they're perfect and the teacher is beaming

from ear to ear and your daughter has her apron on and we bring it to school I need you to be like you know what I saw you making those cookies those cookies look amazing I'm going to show up to the school

and I'm going to be such a good mom and a good wife I'm going to show up to school and be like listen I got snack day taking care of I don't need you to help me with the house the curation

the energy like the way it looks the decor the cookies but you better compliment me but do you think is it's appreciate it is it fair to say that modern couples are also kind of up against societal norms that have always been mixed with pressures to maybe change those norms. And people have not gotten used to that yet. What do you mean? I don't get what you mean. I know this is a crazy thing to talk about these days, but there is still a male female dynamic, at least in a heterosexual relationship. And I think sometimes when you push men to be more feminine or women to be more masculine, it messes with the chemistry.

a bit. Yeah, I think that we have some of that going on. I feel like we're in like a, we're just like in a transition time, I think, for a lot of couples' relationships. It's like in general as a society, you know, women are like, we're more highly educated for the most part, except I think doctorates were not, but 50% of women are in the workforce. We are less reliant on men for the providing and protecting like we used to be. So we're wanting more things out of the relationship. So we've kind of like, like up to the game and we're like, come on guys, like get with the program. And I think we've changed at a faster pace than men have because they're like, wait, I've been doing it this

way. Now you want something different from me. And I think we'll find our way and we'll get there a little bit. And I think it'd be great for men to level up in some ways. But I do, I just agree with you. Like, I think we have to be careful of upsetting that male, the feminine masculine dynamic. But there is like some accountability on men too. There's a lot of young guys that I think are any of this the data's out there that are starting to struggle behind women of the same age where they're staying at home longer. They're not generating an income as early as some of these women. Like there's, there's this whole shift going on where you mentioned like a lot more women are entering the workforce and in garnishing better salaries or greater salaries. And like that's also probably going to be

a big struggle for a lot of those young guys as they enter those relationships because maybe they're now not the breadwinner. But like again, that's like also people have to take part of the way. personal accountability and figure that kind of thing out for themselves. I got what they can handle. Yeah. I think it's a nice balance. What I've realized, like for me personally, is I like a balance in a person of masculine and feminine energy.

I think when you're hyper feminine or hyper masculine, it's hard to be in a relationship with. So, you know, I'm really masculine in my career. And maybe the way I show up on social media is a little bit. bit more masculine. When I'm home, I'm in my feminine, like no other. And I think with you, I want you to be in charge of protecting and, you know, making sure the family unit is good. Wait, I thought you were doing that. No, no, no, you're doing that. I'm not, I don't want any, I don't want anywhere near that. And then, and I expect that. And, and, but he also is in his feminine. Like I said, he's maternal. Yeah. I think if you can kind of learn to balance both as, as, as a

human, it's helpful to come together. Absolutely. Yeah. And like part of it is just like negotiating all of that together and navigating together and and also like getting clear on the expectations for the relationship. Like I don't know if you guys ever had to talk about when you're in your masculine and you're feminine, but like couples have to be aware of these things, talk about these things and negotiate them because otherwise you might be expecting him to do the providing and the protecting, but he's like, oh, I didn't know I was supposed to do that. Right. Right. And then it's just like you are constantly disappointed then. So communicating.

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And then in the morning, I missed my face. I remove it. And it is the sleep pack of a lifetime. I know anyone who is looking for a better sleep, more energy in the morning, and a more sculpted jawline will love it. You can shop it now at shop skinny confidential.com. That's shop skinny confidential.com. Doing this show for as long as we've done it, like call it at this point 800 hours of sitting together talking to people. Yeah. In a weird way, it's been like couples therapy. I believe that. Because you sit here. Like sometimes I hear her say things on the show that I haven't heard her say to me. and we like kind of are like working through issues together at the same time. No, but do you know what I mean?

Like I think I honestly like most of our friends that are couples that are struggling, I think it starts with a lack of communication. They're not on the same page. They don't have the same expectation. Is that what you find? Is that what you find is a big one? I think it's definitely one of them. So I think a big one is that we we sort of carry around inside of us all of these expectations

that we have developed throughout the course of our life. So like we have, you know, we learn how to be a partner when we're growing up watching our family dynamics. Even if you only had one parent or you're raised by grandparents, it doesn't matter. You're still sort of like creating almost like templates that live inside of you that then come out when you reach certain points in your life, almost like dormant seeds where certain circumstances provide the right sunshine and the right water. So a big one is when you get married. And then the other is when you have kids. So like all the templates about what a good parent should look like and what your partner should look like as a parent come to the forefront. What happens, though, is a lot of times people aren't even aware of these things operating under the surface.

And all that they are is they're creating these ideals that they're projecting onto their partner. And if they're not aware and their partner's not aware, it becomes a major source of frustration and disappointment. because when you have all of these unexamined expectations, they really are just sources of, like, judgment, of other judgment or self-judgment. Throughout your marriage, you've been married, you've known your husband since you were, you said 14, yeah, 14 years old and you've been married for a very long time. How has it, 87 years? I told you, like, Rose and Titanic, 87 years. But how do you look at the marriage now compared to when you started? How is it evolved? Yeah.

We had to work through, like the stuff that I try to help couples work through, we had to work through all that stuff. That's so interesting to me that even someone who has the tools. Well, there's two people in the relationship. And I'm not saying it's him, but I'm just saying like, it's a dynamic. It's a dynamic. So you're like, you know, he'll like spark something in me. me and then I'll, you know, we'll end up in this place. But one of the biggest was being able to talk about stuff without it spiraling into defensiveness. That was like one of our biggest hurdles

that we'd to like keep working at over and over again because when he'd get defensive, I'd shut down and then I would just like hold on to everything. So like what are some of the prompts you would bring to the conversation in order to have someone not get defensive? Because I think every couple does that. We've done that. We've done that. We do that every day. We call it the tit for tat. Oh yeah, the tit for tat. Yeah. Every day. I'm not like, we fight. Yeah.

Well, that's not, that's fine. I mean, we fight. So what do you do when you get defensive? So, okay, there's lots of strategies. I have like a ton of strategies in my book. So if you want to, if you're going to like bring something up, that's like you've been holding on to, you need to talk about it. One thing you can do is you can hedge it.

Some people don't like this, but some people love it. It's helpful. But you just say, I need to talk with you about something. I'm kind of worried. You're going to get defensive. Can you handle it? it. Okay. It does. Okay. It kind of, it's like, it's like, I don't know, it's a little bit tricky, but it's really helpful. So it does a couple things. One, the person can self-reflect.

Okay. Because a lot of times we don't self-reflect. And so they can say, yeah, I can handle it. So then if they say something and they get defensive, because they just committed to not getting defensive, they sort of pause and they have to reevaluate. Am I going to actually do this? And then if they do get defensive, you can say, I was worried you were going to get defensive. and you just did. Like what? So then the follow up is, what are you hearing me say right now

that is causing you to feel defensive? Because a lot of times, again, like we are interpreting what they're saying in a completely different way than they meant it. And we're like using all of these, like I said, like we wear these glasses, we interpret our partners through different lenses.

That's playing a part. Okay, what are the other strategies? I want all of them. That's a good one though. That's a great one. I can't wait to wait for you. She's going to try it. me. So this probably is like more my my thought process about some of the strategies is like

you move along a continuum of confrontation. So I believe that in some relationships you do get confrontational to get a little movement. So this is more of the confrontational strategies. So if you bring something up to your partner and they immediately react with defensiveness, one thing you can do is you can bring out like what are. are there sort of ideals for your relationships? You got like the relationship goals. Because here's the thing. A lot of us have these ideals for our relationship,

but then we act in a way that doesn't promote actually these things occurring. Like, give us an example. Like, okay, you want more sex in the relationship, but you throw everything on me. You're not safe for me to talk to and you get defensive every time we talk. Or you want more closeness and connection in our relationship, but you're always on your phone. Like, we behave in ways that are different than what we say we want as our outcomes.

So does that make sense? Totally. So in like the moment you can say something along the lines of, like, what is it that you want our relationship to look like? Or like in a perfect world, like what is our ideal relationship look like? And it's like, oh, well, this, this and this. And you're like, what are you willing to do to get us closer to that point? So you're almost like challenging them to take responsibility for the way that. that they're showing up in that moment.

And so if they say, well, whatever, they can answer, then you can say, then you can call them out if necessary. And that's when you'd say something like, you say you want more connection. You say you want more sex. Like you complain about that. So, but yet you won't even hear me out. Like, I don't feel even safe talking to you.

How are we supposed to get here if we can't do any of this? It makes total sense. Yeah. Is there any tips else you out up your sleeve about that? What else do you that? Anything else? I'm taking notes on the defensive. I'm not saying I'm not defensive.

It's like when you tell me to get off the phone and then I look and you're on your phone, you're like, yeah, but I'm working. And I'm like, well, you're on your phone. I am working. I know, but what do you think I'm doing? Perusing X. Come on, Michael. Are you fucking serious?

What do I think you're doing? What are you doing? Don't worry about it. Yeah, you're cruising X. He loves X. No, but regardless. It's like that. It's like, that's a good example.

It's like if somebody's saying to one person to do something, but then they're literally doing the same thing and not realizing it. So then what would happen? Would you be like, well, you're doing the same thing? Yeah, that's what happens. That's not a good, that's not a good answer. I don't do the same thing. Oh, my God.

I'm working. I don't do the same thing. Michael and I have very different, and this is probably our, when we've talked about this on the show, one of our main issues, we have very different thoughts and boundaries and purposefulness around our phones.

Okay. Very different. Like the way... Well, okay, so like... The way he is with his phone would never work for me. Listen, I hear all these people, and many of them have been on the show. And many of them are my friends. And they go and they say, if you look at your phone, it's going to, you're going to be on someone else and you're going to be disrupted and it's going to set you off and the energies. And I'm like, I just never experienced that. I never pick up my phone. I'm like, oh my God, now I'm on somebody else's schedule. I don't feel obligated to answer text or phone calls or emails. The news doesn't bother me. Like I don't, I don't, it doesn't. And so when people tell me these things, I'm like, that's not my experience.

Okay, but let me ask you this. When he's on his phone, like that moment, you guys are sitting at home, I'm assuming, and you're like, look over and you're like, you get annoyed. I find it dismissive. Okay. I find it. I work on my phone. It's what I do for a living. I, when I go to dinner with someone, they would expect me to be on my phone.

No, it's in my purse. Yeah. It's dismissive. When I'm with someone. I don't go on my phone at dinner. But anyone, I think that if you can't take a minute from your phone, like, what is life? And I'm not saying he's like that obsessed with his phone. That's not what I'm saying.

He's not. I just think in certain moments, the dinner table, in bed, I'm not a in bed phone person. But I would invite you to consider that you working on your phone is irrelevant. to me. What do you mean? Meaning like I don't care if you're working on it or scrolling on it. Whatever you're doing it, it doesn't really matter just because you're working

on your phone does not give you a greater permission to do something. True. You know what I'm saying? True. Yes. But here's the difference. I think some people say like, well, I'm working so what I'm doing is justified. I get on my phone at 10 from 730. What? I'm not on my phone until 10. So a couple things. I was going to like

analyze it. Yeah, go ahead. So like a couple things. So one thing could be you're sort of creating the storyline around what he is like when he's on his phone. Oh, he's like this dismissive guy. He's distracted. He's da-da-da-da-da. Yeah. Okay. So then it's going to-

The big storyline. Yeah. It's like a whole story. Okay. Is that your storyline? Big time. Okay. So what he's doing then is like you're like gathering evidence to support your story.

Every second. I have a bag full of evidence. I have stuff I've written down. I love. It's very. It's not healthy. It's very toxic, Lauren. It's not a helpful.

So mad. I mean, I'm honest. It's not healthy. Okay. Well, no, but that's honest. It's not healthy. But it's like collecting complaints. So you're just going to kind of fire yourself up. Yeah. Okay. So like the hard push to you would be able to like you're responsible for how you write your storyline. Yep. Toward him. So like you, one choice is to like rewrite it. Okay. And be like he's just like, this is downtime. This is downtime. And I want him to feel comfortable in our hard. I know it's hard. I know. I'm just giving you one option. There's other options. But. Like, I want him to feel... Dr. Morgan, that's hard. I can try.

I'm not going to try. Try it. Like, I want him... Like, one thing that I think about with my husband is, like, I want him to feel comfortable in our home. I don't want him walking around on eggshells, and I don't want to exist that way either. So I try, like, when he goes on his phone, not to, like, nitpick because, like, I don't want the same thing turned toward me.

And I want him to, like, be at peace in our home. So that's, like, one way. Okay. The other might be is, like, you just have different. expectations around what's an acceptable use of the phone. And if this is like a big deal to you, that might be something that you guys have to negotiate. I think that a good deal is no phone in the bed, no phone at the dinner table, no phone in the car. Do you don't think that's, those are easy? Take the phone to the bathroom. I can do dinner table in bed. A car I'm going to need that. I

I wheel and deal the whole time. I'm just running around on that thing. I'm not, I don't think it needs to be used in the car. Those are, I just feel. You got two out of three. Be happy with the win. Be happy with the win. So like with expectations when you're negotiating,

because that's what couples, like I talk about in the book. Like you got to negotiate some of these things that are like big ones. You've got to decide. Do you want to let it go? Do you want to level up to meet the expectation? Are you going to lighten up a little bit on the expectation? So maybe you like find.

Oh, hard. I know it's really hard. No, but I mean like we're just using like random examples. examples. But I think to your greater point, I think couples create these narratives and then they're constantly looking for these negative things and that just becomes the reality. It's like it's like a box of pringles. Like when my dad's like, you're turning a molehill into a mountain. That's like what happens. It's like people. Yeah. But I mean, it's like some of these issues that are not such big issues start to become the biggest issue because someone only is

focusing on the negative. And once you're doing that, then you can't see any of the good stuff. Exactly. Exactly. I'm going to look at you through a new lens tonight. I say, wow, this guy's worldly. He knows everything that's going on because of his ex postings. He learned it all on X. How can we work with our partners to cultivate a supportive and positive environment at home? I mean, I think part of it is the good communication is like the cliche answer. I think another is like these gracious interpretations of things. So like giving the benefit of the doubt is. much as possible just kind of changes the tone of the relationship when you're doing that a lot

versus being like kind of snarky or irritated is obviously going to feel different to be in the relationship. I think, hmm, it's like so many. Supportive. I think be generous with appreciation as much as possible. I think people get stingy. It feels uncomfortable. Like maybe you felt uncomfortable giving the compliments, feels uncomfortable sometimes, but you cannot like give your partner a big head. You cannot like make them cocky with too much appreciation. So like appreciate as much as possible. Do you disagree? No, no, no, I agree. I think, I think that for both, like the benefit of the doubt should be given if the, if they're putting the effort out there to try. Like, there's nothing

worse than like when you're trying and then you get shut down because it wasn't good enough because then it makes you like, well, I don't want to try that again. Yeah. You know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah, and I think, you know, sometimes couples get super entrenched, though, into these patterns. So it's like it might not work out perfectly the first time around. So it takes time. I think relationship changes are often a slow grow. Why do a lot of people feel lonely within a relationship? Because...

That's a big theme here. It's a big, yeah, it's a big theme. And that was a viral one because I think just so many people resonate with that idea. And I think it's a number of things. I think it's that women sometimes. feel like they carry a lot of this, like, the thought and the worry about the home and family life. So they're doing that on their own. A lot of what they do is invisible and doesn't get acknowledged or appreciated. I think, I think, too, like, we're on our devices so much that we

kind of, like, disappear into this, like, different world. And so we can be right next to our partner, but they're, like, completely distracted. And so I think that's a big piece of it. I think another reason is, like, once you've been married for a bit and you start entering into the transactional stage of a relationship, you become kind of like roommates. Yeah. I think that's a really lonely place to be. Your partner's not pursuing knowing you anymore, which is like a big one. We have to get good at that.

Maybe they're not even pursuing like time with you. So you start to feel like, I don't even know if they like me. So it becomes this like deterioration of the closeness in the relationship and that can feel really lonely. How do you work with couples to help them get their intimacy back? Because obviously, like, we talk about sex on this podcast a lot. sex, in my opinion, is very important to a long-term relationship, I think for anyone. So what do you do when people start to kind of lose that?

I think there's a lot of places you can start, but I think one piece is that sex starts outside the bedroom, but a lot of times we don't see it that way. 100%. Yeah. So it's like if your relationship is struggling, so will your sex life. And if your sex life is struggling, probably so will your relationship. And so kind of like expanding how we think about sex is really, really important to kind of like taking that step into working on the relationship. No one's ever said that in the podcast and you're so right.

If your wife is bitching at you or how horrible you are all day long and playing the victim, who wants to have sex with that? And on the other side, if your husband's being a fucking asshole. Yeah. and sitting in his overalls, farting in his jeans, watching his phone all day. What kind of guy you picture is here? Who's farting in their overalls? I don't know. If you married Farmer John.

No, Michael doesn't have overalls. I got rid of those when we started dating. You had overalls. Yeah, he did have overalls. What? Taylor, he had overalls. I was horrified. He tried to, like, date me.

I wasn't sitting around. parting in my overalls. I was like, what year was that? Were you 12? We were, how old were you in those overall? That's probably 20.

Oh my God. And I made you wait another year to date me. It was like Oshkosh, too. It was Jean, Gene overall. No, I went to some, what did I do?

I don't know. Honestly, then the year before that, you were a kilt. Yeah. That was for a party. How did you get her? I don't know.

This is why I took 10 years. I had to refine a couple times. Yeah. Taylor, my gosh. This is all true. For real, though, like what you're saying is a big, big deal. A dynamic, specifically around the mental load stuff that comes out a lot is that the woman will start asking her husband, well, usually husband or like her partner to step up more. And he will, whatever.

He won't do it. or he'll be like, okay, just remind me, just make me a list. So then she starts becoming the nag in the relationship. And so he usually starts kind of pulling away at that point. And so he starts to feel to her like a child. And because now she's the nagging mother, she starts to feel like the mother. And so now you have this parent-child dynamic going on, which is like, not sexy. Not sexy at all.

So that's like another piece. That makes so much sense. It's like a childhood situation. What's the flip of that with the dad and the daughter? Oh. Flip of that with the dad and the daughter. I don't know, actually. It mostly happens in that direction.

But yeah, that's like, okay, now I'd be like thinking about that my whole drive-by. My ex-boyfriend used to nag me all the time. It was flipped. It was flipped. He would nag me all the time. I wasn't perfect. Let's just put that out there. I was, I was chaotic.

Very chaotic. But he used to nag me all the time. And it just got to a point where I was like, I don't want to fuck you. No. I mean, I'm not attracted to it. Even if it's not mother, son, just make it parent child. Because that applies there too. It's like a little like, yeah.

Like boy, like that's, I didn't even know that's what that was. I all of a sudden one day woke up and I'm like, I don't want to be intimate with you. Yeah, it's like the ick. He also broke both his arms. We talked to the other day when you brought this up. on his arm. How don't you break the arm? I don't even remember.

It was a long... Don't put him on blast like this. No, I feel bad. Oh, my gosh. Hopefully he's not a listener. Okay. I mean, that'd be even weirder. Tell us about your book.

This was such a fun episode. How fun. Come back anytime. You're so fun. Thank you. Okay, so my new book's called A Better Share, how couples can tackle the mental load

for more fun, less resentment, and great sex. And it's the only book I'm aware of at this time that talks about the mental load and how it impacts your sexual relationship. So that's something that's really different. It also, I'm like, I've read everything pretty much out there on this topic and consume a ton of content on it. It positions the couple as being on the same team. It talks about, so you're not going to feel like defensive as a man reading this. You're not going to feel like you're villainized. I just don't think that's helpful.

And so it's really going to equip couples in some powerful ways. And it talks about four areas you have to get good at sharing. So perspective, expectations, ownership, and accountability. And then it gives couples a plan for how to navigate the mental load in modern life. I think that's exactly why we wanted you on the show because it is such a fresh, unique perspective. I think with books too, we're going to start to see these like niche things that people aren't talking about a lot. Like Atomic Habits was like such a big book. It's because it was something different. Do you know what I mean? And that's how your book feels that people, feels like a fresh perspective on it. I think it's genius. And what you said is so true about as a couple, it should be like you and the couple against the world. Yes. Not, I don't want to fight with my husband in my home.

What's the point? I mean, we always, I'd rather be divorced. Yeah, we always say like it's good if you feel like you're both pushing the boulder up the same hill. Yes. As opposed to, like, separate. But it requires all the things that you said. You have to talk about it all the time.

Yes. Get, like, re-aligned. Yes. Yeah. That was a really fun episode. I'm like crying. You're crying, your tear on your cheek. It is a funny.

I mean, I feel bad for the guy. I feel bad for you wearing overalls. I might bring those back out. If I'll wear him on an episode. I hope you do. Alone. Can you make it the cover of our episode? I'm going to change the cover out of it.

You should find the photo so everyone can like. You know, it's the worst too because I wore them with no shirt. What? And how much did you wet? Oh, and I was like, I was like, I was working out a lot. I was in college. No, no, no. How much did you weigh? No, I was like, I mean, I sit like probably at a good like 170, 175 now and I was like probably like 195. I was just like a big like meathead.

And you walked up to me and I was like, huh? I never walked up to you in the overalls. I have that picture. You saw a picture. Oh my in my vision, my narrative. It was bad too. It was like, you know, like back in the day whenever all the guys had like the little spike. Yes. Oh yeah. It's not a proud moment. I'm not going to lie. You know when you look at the time you think it's like the coolest thing when you look back? Yes, of course. Yikes. I'll bring it back. I don't think that's coming back. That makes some good content. I do not think that's coming back. Not one girl in this room wants that to come back. No. Let's do a poll. Do a poll. No. If anyone. Because then we've got to imagine you going to the bathroom. You're like taking all this. Click, click, click. That's horrible.

That's very fucked up. It's like a woman's jumpsuit. Please don't do that. I got to end the show before I compromise myself anymore. Dr. Morgan, where can everyone follow you? You can follow me on Instagram. Dr. Morgan Cutlip is all one word. Find me on my website or my books are anywhere books are sold.

I know you're going to write more books and you can come back anytime you were lovely shocked. This is great. And you just helped our marriage. Hey, no joke though. If you did break both your arms, overall this would be ideal. We got to go. Thank you for coming on the show. Thank you.