The Bossticks - Ryan Holiday & Robert Greene PART 2 On How To Live Life During Uncertain Times

Episode Date: January 13, 2022

#426: On today's episode we are joined by Ryan Holiday & Robert Greene for the second part of a two part episode that we recorded this week titled "How To Live Life During Uncertain Times". Ryan and Robert join us to round out the conversation and touch on subjects on how we can enhance our lives during times of uncertainty. For listeners who haven't caught part 1 of this episode make sure to check that one out first.   To connect with Ryan Holiday click HERE To connect with Robert Greene click HERE To connect with Lauryn Evarts click HERE To connect with Michael Bosstick click HERE Read More on The Skinny Confidential HERE For Detailed Show Notes visit TSCPODCAST.COM To Call the Him & Her Hotline call: 1-833-SKINNYS (754-6697) This episode is brought to you by The Skinny Confidential  The Hot Mess Ice Roller is here to help you contour, tighten, and de-puff your facial skin and It's paired alongside the Ice Queen Facial Oil which is packed with anti-oxidants that penetrates quickly to help hydrate, firm, and reduce the appearance of fine lines and wrinkles, leaving skin soft and supple. To check them out visit www.shopskinnyconfidential.com now.   

The following podcast is a dear media production. Okay, so COVID has been a real bitch on dating. I know this because I have a lot of really great people on my team that are single, and I have talked to them about this. And we've been trying to brainstorm a way for them to get out there without really getting out there without having to go on some sleazy dating site. And this is where I'm going to introduce you to match dating app. I have been telling my whole team about this, all my friends who are single.

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Welcome to the skinny confidential, him and her. A-ha. Tierra del Fuego in Argentina, I'd go to Antarctica, I'd swim with dolphins. I skydive, I do everything, right? And I'd have sublime experiences. Well, since my stroke, I can't do any of those things, right? I have to just, I can't, literally I can't even take a walk. I'm in my office.

But I have to discover, when I write a book, I have to feel it. So I've had to train myself to see the sublime just in the four walls of my office, in looking outside and seeing the sun and seeing birds and butterflies. and my cats and my wife. It's how you think. It's how you process the world that makes it sublime. The cardinal virtues are supposed to be pivotal. Like this is what the good life hinges on. And so Christianity and Stoicism share these four virtues of courage, temperance,

justice, wisdom as being the sort of not just like what you build a good life around, but like every situation you face calls for one of or all of the four virtues. Welcome back to the skinny confidence. him and her show. Today we have part two of the Ryan Holiday and Robert Green Roundtable. If you're just tuning in this week, make sure you go back and check out Monday's episode where we did part one. That one is doing phenomenally well. The episode is being received very well. People are loving it so far. And this again is part two of that episode. So if you're just tuning in, I guess you could start with this one. But I think it's better to go back and listen to part one first.

I have a fun fact. I have listened to every single one. of Robert Green's interviews on the podcast app and YouTube. And let me tell you something, you guys. He has done like a thousand interviews. I am such a big fan of Robert Green and I think he is one of the smartest,

most well-written authors. There are out there. I highly recommend doing a deep dive into him. And then Ryan Holiday, as you know, I'm such a fan from the Daily Stoic. I read a page of day all the time. I've recommended that book to everyone.

Thanks to Michael. And I'm also just a fan of his writing. Ego is the enemy. Obstacle is the Way. He's written some really great books. Definitely check them out as authors and also as interviewees. With that, part two of Ryan Holiday and Robert Green. Here we go.

This is the skinny confidential, him and her. You mentioned earlier, Robert, about violating a law. Is there a law that you each violate a lot that you have to work on? And what is that law? That's a hard one. What a lot of my violates and love? I would say, and I learned this from Dove, I think the one that most people struggle with is, or a lot of people struggle with, is always appeal to self-interest, never mercy or gratitude, which is that you think people should do the right thing because it's the right thing or because the facts say that it's the correct path or because, like, look at everything I've done for you in the past or whatever, and then realizing that the world operates on self-interest and that, like, whatever it is that you do, especially I think artists, and creative struggle with this a lot.

They go like, but my thing is amazing. We were talking about academics. Like, but I'm the expert in this. I've studied this more than anyone. Why is, why are Robert's books selling more than me? He didn't go to Harvard. He's not a, you know, a tenured professor. Well, it's like because Robert actually cares about the audience.

And he understands that the audience is busy and that they don't care about books. And they're only reading books because there's an ROI on the investment. of reading the book, right? And so this is where I think marketing comes in, but also in the creative process of just like, people are busy, people don't care about you, how do you figure out how to get them to do what you want them to do, whether it's buy your stuff or try out this idea or help someone else by convincing them that it's in their interest to do so, like not trying to go against this headwind of like, but it's like eat your vegetables, you know, like you just don't get anywhere that way. That's a good one. That's a good one that you just said. What about you?

Well, early on, I was violating law number one a lot, never outshined the master. It got me in a lot of trouble. But since then, I've been very aware of some of the primary law of human nature, which is that everybody has an ego, even the people you don't think have one who think, who act like their Buddha or Gandhi or who are the most powerful CEO in the world. Why would they have insecurities. But the higher up you go, the greater your insecurities are. So I've learned since then, and I don't really, I don't really have masters to outshine anymore, but I violated that a lot when I was younger. In general, my problem is sometimes just too nice, right? And I have to learn to say no and be kind of tougher and meaner. So with law number two about learn to not trust friends,

like I hire people sometimes because they're kind of nice and they compliment me. And then I realized that they're a disaster. So I hope he's not listening to this podcast, but I was at the gym, the Los Angeles Athletic Club that Ryan belongs to. And this guy came up to me and he's, he recognized me and he's a big fan. And I started talking to him and I was very impressed. And he's like a professor. He has a PhD in psychology. He teaches at USC. And I thought, hmm, it's probably going to say no, but

would you like to do research for me? And he said yes. And it ended up, he was just terrible, absolutely terrible at it, right? Just the worst choice I could have made. He was full of ego. He thought that he could teach me things, you know, about writing a book. Sorry, young man, but no, you can't teach me a damn thing. Just shut up and do my boring work for me. And later on, maybe I can learn something, you know, kind of thing. But, you know, he kind of sweet-talked me into the job by pretending. And I should have just, like, Anna said,

never hire somebody that you meet at the athletic club. That's like a lesson that I've learned. That's 49 laws of power. I would say, speaking of the athletic club, we were talking about routines, Robert introduced, obviously I knew about swimming but Robert when I was his research assistant would talk to me about swimming and I started swimming because Robert did it and it was a total life-changing thing as part like having something and I haven't been able to do it as much as I've wanted to lately but just like

having something sort of rhythmically that you do like some sort of I find that almost all great writers or creative people have some consistent physical practice that they do that takes you out of your head, but ironically, in doing that unlocks things mentally that makes you better at what you do. Yeah. Yeah, man, I miss it so much. It's very painful to hear that, Ryan, because swimming was meant so much to me. I've been doing it for forever. I competed in high school. That was my sport. And I can't do it now for three years. And it just almost makes me cry. But it meant so much to me because it got me. First of all, you can't swim with other people. I mean, I see some people who do try and do that. I go, what the what hell are you doing? Just swimming is by and age. You have to be

alone in your thoughts. You can't bring a buddy there. And after every lapse there and talk about it, but there are people who will be like kickboarding with their friend. You know, come on. You have to be alone when you swim. But you can't really think very deeply while you're swimming. You're totally in your body. It's this wonderful rhythm. You know, the water is just this incredible feeling. It takes you out of all of your stress, all of your problems. And there's no feeling like in the world that can compare to what it's like after you've had to swim. It's just so relaxing. It's so wonderful. And, you know, it was, it is what helped me get through my books and I don't have it anymore. That's why I say the bike ride is, is my compensation for it. But when you have a lot of mental

energy and that's your life. Having something completely physical, as Ryan says, it's kind of a lifesaver. I remember I was at a pool in Austin and someone recognized me and said, oh, like, I just read this book and I was like, I wrote that book in this pool. Like, not literally, but like the book would not be possible without the pool because I would go, I would write in the mornings and then swim in the afternoons and the sort of like hot, cold, hot cold of it was integral to not losing my mind. but then also I would always get out of the pool with like an idea or a thought. Do you think the sublime aspect of swimming is that there's some like womb-like aspect to being submerged in water?

Huh. Yes. And it's the only medium where you're physically immersed in something. Yeah. Right. I mean, obviously we're immersed in air, but we don't feel it. Sure. And so there's a kind of a onness with the water itself.

It kind of has a different effect on you. And then also, 98% of our bodies is water. And some people think that we evolved. I mean, why do we have salt tears, et cetera, and things like that? Our relationship to water goes back very primal. There's a book written that is now kind of debunk called the Aquatic ape that things... That's how we learn to walk, right? In the water?

Yeah. There is something definitely sublime about water. And I was rereading recently, Moby did. and there's this great passage where Pip falls into the ocean and he just has this insane, beautiful, beautifully description of what it's like to be kind of lost in water and how you're kind of going back to God itself in the universe. Yeah.

You know, you're very influential, Robert, because now I want to go for a swim. You don't swim? But now I want to. Have you been to Barnes Springs yet? No. Yeah, you have. No, I haven't. We haven't gone in, but you've been.

Maybe I've looked at it, but I have not. never been in it. Austin is a very underrated swimming town. Okay. I have to say though, guys, you're not thinking about the hair thing for women, though. It's a real bitch to have to get in with the hair. Barton Springs, they don't have chlorine. Yeah, it's, but even getting your hair wet as ask your wives, they'll tell you. It's a whole thing. It's a whole thing. It's like the hair's out to here, but maybe I just need to get a swimming cap because that does sound extremely therapeutic. I don't mean to brag, but I made the best smoothie after my workout. Like, I have to tell you guys about it is so good.

So what I did is I did one date. I always do one date for sweetness. And it gives it a little healthy fat with lots of vitamins and antioxidants. And then I did a bunch of mixed greens, shoved it all in there. Then I did cherries. I got these frozen cherries from the market. They're so good. They're pitted.

I threw those in there. And then I did chia seeds. seeds and then I did my protein powder and I always do protein after a workout. I am very, very aware of the protein that I use and this shouldn't surprise you. The one that I like is by ritual. It's the essential protein. It's their new protein. It's a plant based protein. Why I like it is because it's clean and it's here to support your nutrient needs in different stages of life. So pregnancy, postpartum, and it has 20 grams of pea protein. So I do two scoops to get those 20 grams. It has the complete amino acid profile. And it's made with this delicious handcrafted vanilla flavor harvested

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slash skinny. I came out here for Ryan's wedding, I was six years ago. Yeah. We were swimming a lot of those days. So he took me to Barton Springs for a swim. And it happened to be one of the coldest days in Austin. It started snowing while we were in the pool. And we were like the, it's not a pool. It's like a pond or something. Yeah. It's a spring. It was so cold. It's good for you. They were not even, they were like Marines who were trying to train. They even got out of the water. We were like the only people there. And we swam. We did like a mile. We did a, you know, a huge number of laps. I got out of that water. I was like shivering. I was shivering. I was shivering all the way through his wedding. I was like, we got out of the pool and I saw him. I was like,

oh, great. I killed Robert Green. And. Everyone's going to bring it. That's amazing. Yeah. I would love to talk to both of you and hear your opinion on the state of the world in the last two years and the anger that is on the internet. Obviously, there is a lot of positivity too, but the anger has been enhanced since people were quarantined. And with COVID, I've noticed it as a creator. I'm sure both of you have noticed it.

What advice would you collectively give? In a way, it's gotten like much more primal and tribal. Yes. Yes, I would love to know, like, your opinions on, like, what you would, if you could write a book on it, like, what would it be called and what would it be about? You know, there was a study by this French biologist in the 1980s. He did experiments with mice. And he did these experiments where, you know, you had, you had, the mice had to choose one passage or another. And he created this situation where neither, neither passage led to anything good. and the mice kind of went crazy insane

and then he sort of analyzed what happened in their bodies and the chemical responses and his idea is that when humans or animals don't have any exit route can't figure out how to solve something something very deep goes on biologically and as chemicals are released that we're not aware of

that lead to depression that lead to stress that lead to frustration And so I was kind of seeing this as kind of like a giant mouse experiment that was going on, right? And, you know, people were very, very frustrated. They had, there was like nothing you could really do to get out of it in a way. And I noticed that with myself, I noticed it was having an effect on my own emotions. I was getting a little rar as well. And so, you know, it's very normal.

It's very natural. And the thing is, you have to understand that the rage is, is not isn't really you it's being manufactured by circumstances you know it's something that i do a lot in my meditation that's helped me a lot is your thoughts and your feelings aren't necessarily you right there there's something else out there it's something that's being produced you're being programmed to think a certain way you're being programmed to feel a certain way by your culture and having that distance and saying those thoughts they're not really me They're coming from some other place.

They're coming from all the other outraged people that I'm reading about on the internet. They're influencing me. And having that distance and understanding, I've said this before about other questions and being able to see that it's not really you that's reacting this way, that you're being kind of programmed and set up. Because if you look at Facebook and you look at Instagram and the other, in Twitter, they've designed it to play on all of those emotions for you, right? They're designed to make you angry and they actually reward people who vent that.

And so it becomes this cesspool where all your deepest, darkest emotions, you can vent them there and feel like you're releasing them, but you're not releasing them. As Ryan said with Twitter, and I never tweet, but even when I did, I always feel like kind of dirty afterwards. I don't feel good about it, right? I kind of vented some opinion in 120 characters, but it made me feel worse in the end. You know, it just comes back to this idea that you're being played, right? That this is a medium that's designed. They're designed to kind of continually manufacture outrage and frustration. And when you have a pandemic, it's just that much easier to manipulate people into having these responses.

It's funny, though, because you're talking about technology, which obviously exacerbates it and has played a big role in sort of how quick it's happened and how, you know, some of the dark corners that people go into. But when I was rereading Marks it during the pandemic, it, like obviously I understood it, but then sometimes you don't understand it until the context changes, but it's like, oh, this guy was writing this during a plague, like during the Antonine plague. And one of the passages he talks about how in a plague there's the kind of sickness you can get that could take your life. So that would be in that case, like the smallpox or whatever it was.

But he's like, there's this other pestilence. He says that can affect your character. And so I think what we're also seeing is people just get caught. They like catch this other kind of toxic thinking or this like maybe it's coming from a really dark place or it's filling some need in them. But they're like when I will talk to, it's like they're totally normal one day. And then the next day they're just like saying stuff that you're just like, whoa. Or you can, maybe it's a little thing and then you watch it grow. You're sort of watching it incubate inside them and affect who they are.

I think we're watching just these, we're seeing in the way that a meme is sort of almost this biological organism or mimics how evolution works. I think you also see it with like idea viruses. Just people get caught in this kind of way of. thinking or this little bug gets planted in their brain. And then the next thing you know, they're telling you about this, you know, how there's really lizard people out there, whatever it is, right? Like, you get, you get infected with something. And this is why I think you have to be always questioning your thinking, but also just like sort of practice good habits. And the same way that you would like, you know, there's like, hey, socially distance or wear a mask.

Like, I think it's almost like, okay, like, who do you let in your like sphere of people? And what do you keep out, like, this is why I don't listen to this or watch this or follow this because you're decreasing your chances of, I think, getting infected with something that, especially if stuff's not going well in your life or you're already an anxious person or maybe you're just at a baby or you just lost someone and you're in some vulnerable place, I think you can be like more compromised and thus more susceptible to this stuff. Like whenever you watch like some video of like some lady freaking out at the supermarket. And then they talk to her later.

She's like, oh, you know, all these things were happening in their life. And then they were spending too much time on the internet. And then it leads to here. And you lead that with, with the, you know, the biggest emotion or one of the biggest emotions, fear, right? And like, that makes people so irrational. And it's interesting, we talk to so many different people all the time. And it's almost like they get, like, if you look at the extreme, even if you talk political, right, left.

It's like they almost get more entrenched and further and further away from the middle. and they fail to even understand, like, understand how far they're getting away from the center. Yes. Like, and they can't. Or just reality itself. Yes. What are you talking about? Yeah.

What is something that you both have learned during this pandemic about yourself? Who I have, so me, I learned that, like, I'm an anxious person. Like, I thought I had anxiety related to, like, specific things that I was doing, right? Like, I thought the anxiety was, like, book is on deadline. Or, like, I don't like being late. or traveling. You tethered it to whatever it was going. Yeah, it was like in relation to the thing.

But then when all those things go away, I think that was what was really interesting about the pandemic, especially this early months where it was like, suddenly like you weren't supposed to be anywhere, you couldn't go anywhere, you were just you. Like it's almost, it was almost a meditative experience or a sensory deprivation experience and then it stripped all the outside things away

that would either provoke you or prevent you from being provoked because it would consume you, right? And then so when all that went away and you're like, oh, the emotions are still there, you realize this is another stoic idea that like you're bringing the, like, you want to blame the person for offending you, but really like you're choosing to be offended, right? Like it's your fault. You're carrying it. And so the idea for me was like, oh, I'm bringing this to the situation because now that those

situations are gone, if I'm still feeling it, it's like the con, it's like, you know, when you go, if everyone you meet is an asshole, it's because you're the asshole. it's like if all these things are causing anxiety, then I stop doing those things and I'm still anxious. It's like, oh, I'm the common variable in all these situations. You know, it's interesting about you too, because I've seen obviously, like, I've seen what's going on on social.

And people, they like hold you to this pedestal where you need to be a perfect stoic at all times, right? Like, because you ride and because, like, you build a career and right, like, if you ever, if they ever perceive that you fall outside of that, you are viscerally attacked. Yeah, like, if I'm, like, hey, I said, like, I bought something and it came defective.

People are like, you should be indifferent to this. You know, like, I'm not mad. I just would like my money back. But it's also you've told everyone it's a practice. It's not something that you're just evolved right away. It's a constant daily practice like meditation. Well, that's what I'm saying. I think people like expect you, like you have to be, you're not practicing anymore.

Like you are. I feel like they do that to a lot of influencers. They think that you should be a certain way at all times. what's something that you learned during this pandemic about yourself? Well, I learned what Ryan was talking about. Then I learned something a little bit not so nice about myself because when it initially happened, I was actually quite happy in some ways. I was like, wow, Griffith Park is empty.

There are no people. This is bliss. This is how the world should be. There's no traffic in Los Angeles. I'm the happiest person on the planet. Wait a minute, Robert. There are people dying and suffering, and yet you're excited by this. That's not very nice.

But I couldn't help it, you know? I mean, do you know what it was like to be able to drive to Santa Monica in 15 minutes from Los Phyllis? It was like you landed in the Garden of Eden. Los Angeles was livable for, you know, several months. But come on, you know, what's the context here? So I had to kind of step back and be a little more empathetic and remember my own struggles when I had my stroke and how painful it is and there are people dying and the helplessness that you feel with your body when you can't breathe, et cetera, you know, I know what that

helplessness is like. It's awful. It's the worst feeling and people being so insecure about their jobs. So I had to step back and kind of try and understand a little bit better about, you know, and my stroke has kind of had that effect in general where I've had to be a little bit more humble about people who are facing limitations in life because I know what that feeling is like and it's absolute misery. So on the one hand, I was so upset when all the cars reappeared and people were out partying and the restaurants were crowded again. Then, you know, come on. Robert, that's really kind of sad about you. I don't think that's a great thing. I love the self-awareness in both of your answers. It's incredible. Before we go, I would love to hear

about each of your books. Robert, you're in the midst of writing one. And Ryan, you just wrote one. Can you speak on that? Maybe we'll start with Ryan. So I'm doing a four book series on the Cardinal version. So I just did this one on courage. And then I'm doing one on self-discipline. Oh, my God. And justice. You are busy, man. This will fall outside of the original trilogy. And what number is the fourth book out of all your books? I don't know. What number is courage? I don't. 11 or 12. Something like that. Oh my God. I know. That's like having 12 kids.

Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Go ahead. So you're doing four-part series. So I'm doing the four-part series. So I'm sort of, it feels like the first one is done. But really, since they're all real, it feels like I'm just 25% of the way through this, like, larger thing that I'm working on.

It actually feels nice, though. I don't know, but you, Robert, but like the weird part is like, you're working on a book and you have no idea what would be next. Right. So, like, the future. Having like, oh, no, no, these are four things I'm doing in a row. and this is vaguely the timetable that it has to be on, is both intimidating and it's also kind of, there's like a certain security in like how overwhelming it is

because it's just like... Did you have that in the first three? Did you know you... No, because it was like, I wrote one and then it did okay and then I was started the second one, and then I was like, oh, you know what? They should be related. And then the third one happened,

but I didn't think about the third one when I was writing the first two. So this is the first time I've done anything where like the pieces are intertwined or related and dependent, that's when I'm on now. And if you were going to sort of pitch your book to the audience, what value do you think it'll bring? So the idea of the cardinal virtues, people think like cardinal,

because it's associated with Christianity that cardinal means like, is that from a cardinal? Like, is it like a Catholic thing? Cardinal comes from the Latin word Cardos. So the cardinal virtues are supposed to be like pivotal. Like this is what the good life hinges on. And so Christianity and Stoicism share these. four virtues of courage, temperance, justice, wisdom, as being the sort of, not just like what you

build a good life around, but like every situation you face calls for one or four, or one of or all of the four virtues. So I'm just thinking, to me it's like, okay, yeah, the world melts down. You need courage, but then you also need self-control. Then you also need justice. How do my individual decisions affect other people? Then wisdom, how do you tell fact from fiction, right? Very timely. Did you time with everything? Timely slash Timeless would be the idea. Yeah, a perennial seller.

But it's very much, it's very much like I feel like for what the world is going through it fits. That tends to happen though, don't you think? You're thinking about something and then it just, it aligns with, well, you talk about this in laws of human nature, the idea of the zeitgeist. Like, are you plugged into it or not? Do you feel the energy of the world or not? And I think part of it, you get lucky, but then also.

also you have some sense. It's not you're predicting what's happening, but you have some sense that inevitably something like that must happen. Well, I mean, I come across a lot of young people who are huge fans of Ryan's books and I kind of talk to them about it. And I think, you know, we're all products of the time that we live in. And Ryan came from, you know, your generation. I'm just lumping you guys together here. Same. Okay. Times of great insecurity. You know, you had the 9-11, then you had the meltdown in 2008, then you have a pandemic. 20 years of war? 20 years of war.

And so you've had to deal with things that my generation really didn't have to deal with. And so there's a lot of kind of insecurity and fear about the world, and you don't really know how to react. And you feel like you've kind of lost control. And I got this sense in talking to the, because it's mostly a younger audience, I think, for you. And it's the same for me, but definitely for you, is Ryan's book really help anchor me in this very turbulent, dangerous, constantly changing world. And I think it's because he felt that way himself that he turned to stoicism. And so, you know, if you feel something very deeply yourself, it's going to resonate with a lot of other people of your generation in particular.

That's why I can't stop recommending your book. You know, like, what a fan I am of the Daily Star. I was struggling. Like, Lauren and I were both struggling with 2015. We're like losing part of this business. And I think that's when we found an obstacle. I'm like, oh, wow. Yeah, it's really, really. And now I have daily laws, daily stoic on my meditation mat.

How good is daily laws though? It's amazing. Because you're not going to necessarily sit down and reread all of 40 laws of power or 33 strategies of war. But then it's like a reminder of, oh, yeah, that was so good. It's really good. To me, it's like the great authors don't get to do greatest hits albums because that's like not how books work, but that's what I think it is.

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I started to read war. You didn't get through it. No, no, no, no. I'm still on it. I'm still on it. I'm listening to it on audible. I'm not actually reading it. So I listen to it when I walk, when I run. But what Michael has been doing with war is Michael is Michael is Michael is reading it. And what Michael does is every night he'll highlight something and we'll talk about it in war. So I'm getting also bite sizes for Michael and then I'm listening to war. You know what war did for me? It got me like really, like, I'm not saying this right, but it got me very much back into reading about Napoleon. I'm reading a lot about Napoleon. As a woman, though, out of all your books, war was the one I was most, like, it was hardest for me

because it is, to me, it was very, very, very, I love masculine energy, but it was very, very masculine energy. But with what you've read and what I've listened to, it does have things that you can really apply to business. So I like war. I love war. I would tell the audience, to start with power, human nature, or the daily laws.

Tell us about that. Just to interrupt, I would say, like, I think the reason people are sometimes deterred by the 33 strategy of war, which is, I think, my favorite of your books, maybe mastery. But if it was called 33 laws of strategy, or 30, you know, like,

the war, the war. I think people, they, the emphasis on war instead of strategy. Maybe scared me a little bit out of all of them. It's really a book about strategy. It's a beautiful book on strategy. tell people to read like, they're like, oh, I'm starting a business or I'm launching a product. Because it's really about like what a war is made up of campaigns, right? And it's about

how to successfully accomplish a thing. You're exactly right. It is one of the best business books to read probably. I'm not through it all the way, but from what I've read so far and listen to. In a way, they're all applicable. But that I would argue that that book is way more applicable if you are starting a venture, right, then 48 laws of power. Because 48 laws of power is assuming that either you're on the rise of power or trying to keep power, right? Where this is, maybe you need to do this first part before you can accumulate the power part. Yeah. Yeah. Michael's the one that introduced me to your books. He's the, he's read, I feel like you've read all of them. I've read, no, I think I have read all. No, I haven't read seduction yet, which I probably should.

You shouldn't be reading that book. Yeah, she should because he should be constantly seducing me. Reduction? You know what? That's probably right is Lauren and I've been together since I was 20. You need to read seduction. You kind of strange

if I was off in the corner or the one behind Roberts back is the seven principles for making marriage work. You could read that one too at Ryan's bookstore. I have one final question for both of you

and I think about this. I was reading 48 again. I sometimes go back to it and I was thinking about law nine and it was, I'm going to butcher it. It's basically... Make people come to you? No, it's when

went through your actions never through arguments. Yes, went through your actions, never through your arguments. And I think at a time, like, there's a lot of arguing going on all over the place. And basically everyone's breaking the law. Like everyone. Oh, yes. Yes, that law. Everyone's breaking.

Well, no, but that too, but everyone's breaking the law, meaning everyone's just arguing. Nobody's really like taking, I mean, I don't say nobody, but it's just chattering about it on the internet instead of being like, here's evidence. Yeah, and I think it's part of the problem, right? You see these in these comment sections. You just see two opposing sides just going at each other. Yeah. And after I was reading your book and I was like, okay, we're never going to accomplish anything this way because nobody's ever going to win.

You never convince people of your point of view if you argue with them. You just make them more defensive, right? Because everybody carries with them, you know, it's the notion of cognitive dissonance and confirmation bias. We come upon an opinion or an idea and we're emotionally attached. to it, right? Part of ourselves are invested in it. We like to think of ourselves as being rational, morally upright, you know, able to kind of do the right thing, et cetera. And when somebody tries to kind of argue against that and say that your opinion is wrong, it's not just the opinion that

they're actually attacking you. You're personally invested in it. And so naturally you're going to feel, because what they're saying is, you were so stupid to believe this. You need to believe B instead of A. You're going, well, I'm not stupid. I'm actually a very smart person. And then you double down on your original opinion because your ego is attached to it, right? So it never, never, never succeeds. I mean, I can think of maybe a couple times in my life where someone has argued something so brilliantly that it did have kind of an effect on me.

And I calmed down and I kind of saw their point of view. but in general when you heat people up which is what an argument will do they're just going to get defensive their walls are going to go up and they're never going to come down right so yeah it's it's absolutely pointless and what it is is a lot of people aren't trying to to win they're just trying to vent their own emotions right they're not so if you really cared about the environment or you really cared about justice just shut up and make do something practical and get something accomplished instead of venting your feelings that don't change anybody's opinion. Well, the pandemic should be really illustrative of this

because it's so extreme, but it's like, oh, your people who you are not that different of then, and I think you do a good job with that in laws of human nature. It's like, no one is above this. It's like you watch a person who would literally rather die than agree with someone they disagree with or dislike or admit they were wrong about something or change their mind.

You're like, okay, if that's what, if at that level they would rather like literally die in a hospital than do X, Y, or Z, you're probably not going to be able to bully them into changing their mind about these other much more minor things where the consequences are even less severe. Like, it's just not going to happen. And to me, like so people don't like this about Stozo's in the idea of just acceptance or resignation that feels very weak. But it's also strong. And you're like, look, I don't control what other people are doing. I only control what I'm going to do. So by not either despairing or beating my head against this brick wall, I'm just going to

focus on the decisions I make in my life, for my family, in my career, whatever, that's where you're going to make a difference anyway. People have a hard time with that, but it's ultimately like all you can do. But it's like also, there are ways of persuasion and arguing that can be effective. And if you have children, which I don't have, you kind of understand that sometimes imposing your idea upon them creates the opposite reaction. So you have to be tricky. You have to learn to take their point of view. And you have to say, you know, you're right. I agree with you. Your idea is fairly sound, you know. Maybe it's true that they rushed with this vaccine thing, you know, and we don't know all the dangers about it. You're not stupid for believing that. But then you

introduce a little poison pill in your argument that says, that introduces a little bit of doubt in them. So you're treating them as an adult as someone who is actually struggling with an idea, and you're kind of trying to subtly insinuate a better idea in them, right? And that can work sometimes if you're good, and that is the art of persuasion, to first sort of get inside their point of view, kind of use their words, their images, their way of thinking, and then to turn it a little bit around so that you can kind of channel it in a better direction. That's a kind of thoughtful way of arguing. And isn't that like a full third of the 33 strategies of warbook of the indirect approach instead of the like sort of head to head?

Sometimes when Michael does something I don't like, I just do nothing. And I just give no reaction. That's perfect Chinese strategy. I know I learned it from the Chinese. I probably learned it from your book. I just do nothing. I just look at him. I tell him if you cheated on me, I would do nothing for 10 months.

A little off-putting. I don't believe that. I would do nothing. I would just have no reaction and do nothing. And you just murder him in his sleep. You don't know what I would do. He's gone for 10 months. To your point, though,

introducing these ideas or these subtleties, I think the problem is that nobody's doing that, right? They're just, they're so dug in on their way and they're just four, like what other side of the spectrum you fall on in any argument? We're out of time now. Everyone's just like, there is no nuance. It's just force on both sides.

Right? And so you don't have any, that's able to even listen anymore. And it worries me when you think about politics. You have these people that are so dug in on their ideas and we've lost the ability to communicate and come to resolutions on the best strategies. Okay, I have a real tip. I got so sick about three weeks ago. And I have to tell you what saved my life. I had never tried it before, but it is the beekeepers naturals, be better cough syrup. So I always talk about beekeepers. I'm a huge fan of their little shots for focus. I actually cannot believe how much I like them. I take them every single day.

But I had never gotten a chance to try the cough syrup because I hadn't been sick. And so I got sick and I was like, I should just give this a try. I did like a big tablespoon of the cough syrup. It's all natural. I'm going to tell you what the ingredients are. You're going to go wild. And first of all, it tastes so good. It doesn't taste like that nasty chemical cough syrup that our parents used to give us when we were little. It tastes so natural and it's so soothing. I swear to God, this got me through, this cough and cold, I could not believe it. I have told every single one of my friends about this, a bunch of friends are texting me right now saying that they're sick or their throat hurts or it's scratchy and I'm like, you have to try this cough syrup to soothe a scratchy

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I know you'll love it. And today, beekeepers naturals is offering you an exclusive offer. You're going to go to beekeepers naturals.com slash skinny or intercode skinny to get 25% off your order. That's B-E-K-E-P-E-R-S-N-A-L-S dot com slash skinny or inner code skinny. Start feeling better every day today today. But there are some politicians and they're the ones that are going to be successful. who understand, you know, Clinton did this with the kind of mirroring, triangulation and mirroring where you kind of take the issues that the other person has and you address those and you hit at them

is very, very powerful. It's what the Democrats are absolutely awful at, right? Ryan and I have been involved in some little bit of political consulting. Names shall not be mentioned. What do they rhyme with? No, no, no, no. I think even as a writer, this is something I've learned. I think I got this from Neil Strauss, he said like when someone tells you that something's wrong, they're always right. And they tell you how to fix it. They're always wrong. So the point is like, when someone's like, I don't like this, you're not like, no, you're an idiot. Let me tell you why this is the absolute best way for me to have done it this way. You go like, hmm, okay, maybe something isn't working and I'm going to go look at it. You think it's not working for this reason. But actually,

you're not smart enough to know why it's not working. So I'm going to fix it over here. I'm not going to convince you by telling you you're wrong. I'm just going to tweak whatever you up to not like this part, right? And so the idea of like doing things indirectly or just not like taking it, integrating it, making some change on it, but not having to like, just because they said do this, you do that. I think that that just requires more self-control and I think self-awareness than people have, but also that like we have. It's hard to do that consistently all the time. When someone's like, hey, can you, you're like, hey, can you pick up that? And you're like, who are you to tell, you know, like, you just can't do it all the time. Because

you're exhausted or you don't have the resources, but like, it's never the best thing. This is something you're going to do in your new book about temperance? Is it part of a self-control? If I'm ever a politician, I'm going to call you guys. Every politician is crazy not to be calling you. Your phone should be ringing off the hook. I'm sure it is. I always send them his way.

I'm like, because they'll read my book for self-improvement reasons, but I'm like, here, go talk to this person. They'll actually solve your problems. A lot of politicians need to talk to you. You know what's interesting, too. So we haven't talked about the. it's a little preview, but we're going to do, we've done over 400 of these episodes now with conversations. Oh, congratulations. Thank you. In hindsight now, it's been a short time,

but it's also kind of been a long time, you know, for that many episodes. We wanted to do a little bit of like a, what are, you know, 10 of the greatest lessons or thoughts or ideas that we've, you know, broadly that we've gotten from the show. And I think number one, and maybe it won't be number one. So I might have to edit this if it comes out, is that you start, after having, talking to so many people, you realize that everybody kind of has a story and everybody has their own background, their own upbringing, their own ideas. And nobody ever starts out with, you know, ill intention, right? They come to the conclusions they come to because of the circumstances that they got brought up in or are in. And they start out with the, they're not doing things

most times. I mean, sometimes it's different, but most people are, they believe they're right. Yeah, Socrates's thing was no one's wrong on purpose. Yes. There's a logic to their thing. It could be ridiculous. But like, if they were wrong on purpose, they would not be wrong. Like, they think they're right. That's the whole point. Yes. And if you start looking at people like that, then you actually start looking them as like people again, like humans, as opposed to like, I'm looking at you as the opposition. And I think it opens your mind to so many other ideas and perspectives and thoughts. And it makes you question yourself all the time too. She's like, okay, I may not agree, but at least I can, if I'm not looking at you as like, you're the opposition, you're against me.

You know, you're a human going through a human experience. I think just starting there broadens everything that you can understand and hope for. What can we expect from The Sublime and then both of you pimp yourself out? Well, the Sublime is a book I've been meaning to write for 16 years. It was supposed to be my fourth book after the 33 Strategies of War. But then I got waylaid by 50 Cent and then mastery came up and et cetera, et cetera. So it's been something I've been wanting to write for a long time. And it's in laws of human nature and in the 50th law.

So you've been like... Toying with it. Yes. Yeah. But, you know, since my stroke, so the concept of the sublime is very simple. It's that what does it mean to be a human being? It means that we live in a circle of conventions and codes, right? So there are always these ideas and laws and things that aren't written down that we abide by. and there are these certain ideas that we conform to

that create the culture that we live in. And what it was for ancient Egyptians isn't what it is for us now. Obviously, our values have changed. But that circle, that limitation is the same. The ancient Egyptians had that circle, but it just evolved around different ideas than ours do. Ours are around notions of correctness, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.

Okay. And so what happens when you create limits, like that, you create a circle, is that human beings are naturally wired to kind of rebel against that. We kind of want to go beyond limits. There's a perverse streak in human nature, where you're saying we're not supposed to think about that. We're not supposed to generate that those kinds of ideas. We're actually attracted to the very thing that's forbidden to us. And exploring outside that circle that our culture kind of imposes on us is the sublime, is what lies outside what lies beyond. And it's a realm of the most exciting, powerful emotions you can

experience. Because when you live within that circle, you kind of feel restricted inside. Like, my world is so limited. My world is so small. And in the era of the smartphone, my world has kind of shrunk down to this tiny little phone. That's all I interact with. And your world gets smaller and smaller and smaller. And the sense of expanding your consciousness, of going outside that limit, of seeing the cosmos in a different way of understanding the evolution of life on our planet in a different way of seeing how animals think, how children think. I'm writing a chapter right now about childhood sublime and how the brains of children

are wired completely different from an adult. When we were children, we thought in a completely different way. And if we could ever recapture some of that, it would be a very sublime experience. And so I want to explore that area outside that circle and open people's minds up to this other realm of existence that will actually completely alter your everyday experience. And so the thing was, I had originally intended the sublime book. I don't know if I've said this on my other interview, so I hope I'm not repeating myself. But I'd originally intended it where I'd be flying off to Tierra del Fuego in Argentina. I'd go to Antarctica.

I'd swim with dolphins. I skydive, I do everything, right? And I'd have sublime experiences. Well, since my stroke, I can't do any of those things, right? I have to just, I can't, literally I can't even take a walk. I'm in my office. But I have to discover, when I write a book, I have to feel it. So I've had to train myself to see the sublime just in the four walls of my office,

in looking outside and seeing the sun and seeing birds and butterflies. and my cats and my wife. It's how you think. It's how you process the world that makes it sublime, right? Not the objects themselves. You could look at the moon a million times and it will never give you a sublime experience. But if you look at it a certain way,

understanding the relationship between the moon and the earth and how unlikely it is that it exists and what it might actually be like to be on the moon, suddenly it becomes a sublime thought. And if you have enough of these thoughts during the day, it alters you from the inside out. You feel grateful for being alive. You look at everything around you within a new light.

It is like a religious experience. It's the most mind-blowing thing that can happen to you. And the ultimate thing outside that circle is death itself. And the sublime, the word sublime means up to the threshold of a door. So limin, limin is the threshold of a door. So it's like you're peeking out through a door beyond what you're normally. normally supposed to think about. And death is the ultimate beyond, right? We had to know what it's like. And to have a near-death experience like I did, it kind of completely alters how you look at everything.

It's an insane experience. And that's going to be the last chapter of the book. But that's sort of to give you an idea what it's about. And right now I'm doing the childhood sublime, which is a very exciting chapter. I can't wait to read it. I can't wait to read all of that. That sounds incredible. where can everyone find both of you, your books, The Daily Laws, the Daily Stoic, get both of them, read them on a daily basis. You guys can't recommend them enough. I'm at Ryan Holiday and at Daily Stoic,

and you are at Robert Green Official. Yeah, you are because I click it a lot. And he also has a really good YouTube channel and TikTok. I don't think people would think Robert Green TikTok, but his TikTok videos are awesome. TikTok is lit. Yes. Thank you guys both for taking the time.

Thank you so much. Thanks for doing this on a Sunday. Of course. That was amazing. Little giveaway, as always, we are going to give away some beekeepers' natural products. All you have to do is tell us

your favorite part of this episode with Ryan and Robert on my latest Instagram at Lauren Bostick and someone from our team will slide into your DMs. One of you will win and you can bet

I will send you the cough syrup. Make sure you've rated and reviewed the podcast. Every little review counts and we appreciate the support.