The Bossticks - Ryan Holiday & Robert Greene Pt.1 On How To Live Life During Uncertain Times

Episode Date: January 10, 2022

#425: On today's episode we are joined in what will be the first of a 2 part episode with our friends, Ryan Holiday & Robert Greene. Many listeners may be familiar with both of these best selling authors as they have both been on the show multiple times. On this episode the duo are here to discuss how to live life during uncertain times and how we can use these experiences to grow. Check out Part 2 this Thursday 1/13/22. To connect with Ryan Holiday click HERE To connect with Robert Greene click HERE To connect with Lauryn Evarts click HERE To connect with Michael Bosstick click HERE Read More on The Skinny Confidential HERE For Detailed Show Notes visit TSCPODCAST.COM To Call the Him & Her Hotline call: 1-833-SKINNYS (754-6697) This episode is brought to you by The Skinny Confidential  The Hot Mess Ice Roller is here to help you contour, tighten, and de-puff your facial skin and It's paired alongside the Ice Queen Facial Oil which is packed with anti-oxidants that penetrates quickly to help hydrate, firm, and reduce the appearance of fine lines and wrinkles, leaving skin soft and supple. To check them out visit www.shopskinnyconfidential.com now.  This episode is brought to you by SKORCH Skorch is a curated map of only the best/coolest/tastiest/trendiest restaurants, bars and coffee shops. We love that it's super selective and shows only Skorch Worthy places. It always makes it so easy to find the amazing spots to eat, drink and, let's be honest, create some cute content. If you're a longtime listener, you know I am all about curation, so this app is a dream for me. Trust me, you need to download Skorch ASAP. It's free on the App Store. This episode is brought to you by Nutrafol Nutrafol's goal is to empower women to embrace the beauty of their hair growth recovery with Nutrafol Postpartum by targeting the root causes of postpartum thinning hair-like the physical stress of childbirth and emotional stress of parenting, as well nutrient depletion. Visit www.nutrafol.com and use promo code SKINNY to save $15 off your first month's subscription and free shipping.  This episode is brought to you by ARRAE Arrae was created to help women feel the best so they can be their best, through targeted products which are 100% natural, filler-free, organic, and formulated by a Naturopathic Doctor. For 10% off, go to arrae.com and use code 'tsc' at checkout. Produced by Dear Media 

The following podcast is a dear media production. She's a lifestyle blogger extraordinaire. Fantastic. And he's a serial entrepreneur. A very smart cookie. And now Lauren Everts and Michael Bostic are bringing you alone for the ride. Get ready for some major realness. Welcome to the skinny confidential, him and her.

You have to create, I think, distance, artificial distance between you and the response. And you also, I heard this quote recently where it was like, if you listen to what other people think, you're useless as a compass. So like the idea of like you are the one, like you're the one making the show, writing the book or doing the thing. You're following something inside yourself. And that's like your genius or your gift or it's the muses or whatever it is. But the other thing is you can't succeed. You can't do anything in life unless you do get feedback. So it is a dilemma, right?

If you just live in your little bubble and you go, I'm going to ignore the world, I'm just going to write my brilliant screenplay or my book or create this business, you're probably going to be in for a world of heard because you have to have people that you can listen to. Welcome back to the Skinny Confidential him and her show. Today we have two fan favorites on the show,

both at the same time, a little bit of a roundtable conversation. Ryan Holiday and Robert Green, both have had multiple appearances on this show. Both of them bestselling authors. Some of our favorite books, Mastery from Robert Green, The Laws of Human Nature,

laws of seduction, from Ryan, the obstacle is the way, ego is the enemy, stillness is the key. We've interviewed them multiple times, like I said, and on this episode,

we're covering a lot of ground in this roundtable conversation. It's been a weird couple of years. I don't need to tell anybody that. And we thought bringing both Ryan and Robert on the show to talk about stoicism, human nature,

psychology, dealing with harsh times. would be a great way to kick off the new year. This is a two-part conversation because it was a long conversation. We went out to Ryan's new bookshop in Texas and sat down with them. And, you know, I think the total conversation was close to two hours. So we're breaking this up into two parts. This is the first part that we'll air this Monday. And you can look for the second part to air this Thursday. With that, like I said, two fan favorites, two bestselling authors, two of our friends, Ryan Holiday and Robert Green. Welcome back to the Skinny Competential, him and her show.

This is the skinny confidential, him and her. I want to open this up with asking about octopuses. Octopi or octopuses. Is it octopi? I had this discussion with Whitney Cummings. Is that what you're referencing? And I believe it's octopuses. And she was saying octopi.

And then we looked it up and I think it is octopuses. Pusses sounds like a little, it sounds nicer. A little raunchy. Yeah? Depends who you ask, I guess. Why are you so deep into octopi, octopuses right now? Well, I'm not, I mean, I have one of the chapters that I'm going to be writing on Sublime is about animals. Okay.

Because I'm a complete animal person. I've always since a kid, I've adored dogs, cats, horses, et cetera. There has to be a chapter on animals. And the idea of the sublime with animals is that they have a particular consciousness and way of relating to the world that we're just beginning to explore in science. It's like this new frontier that they're actually able to crack the code and say, this is how a bat thinks. This is how a dolphin relates to the world.

To me, that's just like the most insanely sublime idea. It's like Dr. Doolittle, right? And so octopuses are the most amazing creature on the planet. First of all, they're incredibly smart. They have very, very large brains. But their consciousness is throughout their body. So their brain is not just located centrally. It's located through each one of their arms and in their tentacles.

So they're thinking with their hands. Imagine if your thinking was in your fingers, in your hands, and what that would be like. I could go on and on about the insane qualities of the octopus, their intelligence, and people who around them, they recognize faces. You could leave, you can come back six months later. They'll recognize who you are. They'll come up, surface and like kind of, kind of. greet you. They'll even kiss you with their tentacles. They have insane qualities. But the most

amazing thing of all is their lifespan is two years. Maybe at the most three years. People are wondering, what is all that intelligence for? You know, how did it ever evolve that way? Right. So I haven't been so immersed in research because I'm writing other chapters. And the animal sublime is the one is like two ahead and I'll go back into it. But there's some interesting theories about why octopuses evolve this way you know and the other thing that's incredible is their camouflage abilities they're able to like they're the greatest camph they and squid are the most amazing animals able to camouflage themselves they can change colors etc but it's through their thinking their brain is able to change the color within them and

this guy was studied there seems to be no like rational purpose sometimes for the changes that goes on. Like it's almost like psychedelic. They're not hiding themselves with some of their manifestations. And he was saying some of it is their emotions. They're just changing colors from the different things that they're feeling. This is all speculation. But this one writer, this neuroscientist from England,

he wrote this essay about this is what alien life might be like. A completely different form of consciousness, but smart and brilliant. I mean, octopuses can't fly, you know, flying saucers, et cetera, but to have your brain not local, not centralized, but located throughout your body and other things like that. I'm sorry, it's an endlessly fascinating subject. I'm sorry to say. Isn't there a word for, like, how to think about how another animal or a person thinks about the world? It's like a German word.

Einful. It's a umwelt. Umwelt. Yeah. Umwelt means your environment. Yeah. So, so like, how does a dog go through the world or how does a bat go through the world? it's kind of trippy to think because I think as a human you just assume everyone either goes through it like you or in a much inferior way to you but the idea that someone is doing it better and that thing is an octopus is pretty humbling yeah yeah it's kind of scary on your happy hour conversation or dinner would be so interesting well sometimes it's pretty boring sometimes we're just talking about football or you know but you talk about dinosaurs a lot today

Dinosaurs. We had the same discussion, but about dinosaurs. So I would love to hear from Ryan what it's like to be Robert Greens' mentee. And then I would love to hear from Robert what it's like to be your mentor or was like to be your mentor. I don't know if you guys look at each other. And remind us quickly like just, I think we've told it before it quickly how that came to be, how you guys first got connected. I was just rewatching 30 Rock.

They said in this show, Tracy Morgan's character says it's mentor and their manatee is. I'm the relationship. So wait, so you would be the manate? I'm the manatee, yeah. Oh, okay. I think I was still in college. You're like 19. Yeah, and I, we had lunch.

We had a mutual friend. Tucker? Yep. And was Neil there? No, Neil wasn't there. Okay. And you were working on the 50 book and you just fired a research assistant. You were complaining about that you had trouble keeping them.

So I had already written the war book? Yes. And were you a fan of his writing? Yeah. Of course. Because I had read the war book, so it was definitely out. Yes, I did not work on the war book. Remember you wrote it twice, basically? I think you were just starting the first version. You sure wasn't before that? Okay, you have better memory than I do. And yeah, I was like I would do that. That was literally my dream. Like, first of, I was not only my dream job.

It was not something I could conceive of was a job. Like that a person could do it. But I'd read all of his books. And that would, I'd never read anything like that. So those were the kinds of books that I wanted to do. And what I remember, the weird story. And we may have told this before. But remember I gave you my phone number, but I gave you the wrong number.

Like I messed it up because I'd just gotten it. And so you called me to like, you know, you said, I'm going to think about it. And then if I, like, if I need someone, I'll call you. And you did call me and I didn't answer. Seductive. No, no, because I didn't have the number. Like, it wasn't me. And then remember the people pretended to be me. So what happened was. God, I don't remember any of this. Somebody, somebody got, whoever was on the number they were getting decided that it would be fun to just pretend to be me. And they told you this story about how I was in the hospital. I was dying. was this whole thing.

Oh my God. I've never heard this story. Yeah. I haven't either. Well, you told it to me. So at some point, you realized that it was not me and someone was stringing you along. And you went back and got my actual phone number. How did I get that from that agency you were working at?

Yeah, I forget. But we ended up connecting, obviously. And so I often think about like the, because I gave my phone number wrong and then because these people decided to play a prank, the entire course of my life might have turned out differently. I might have said fuck off. Yeah, you might have been like, like this person doesn't want it. He's a flake. Well, you would have figured something else out.

It would have taken a different course. Yeah. But, yeah, it was all from that lunch. So what is it like to be his mentee? What does that look like? Well, I think the first thing you had me do was transcribe interviews that you did 50. Because you couldn't do that online then. You kind of give him a test a little bit to see if they have the chops?

Well, I thought I had you do some research assignments. Was that mastery? No, later that was on the 50th law. But at first, I had to transcribe hours and hours of interviews with you in 50, which is not easy to do. Not because of me, I don't think. Yeah. No, not because of you. And then as you got deeper into the entourage, the interviews got harder to follow. Let me ask you this, Ryan, from your perspective, because there's a lot of people that listen to the show and they write in and they say, how do you find a mentor? And there's a transaction, obviously, that takes place between mentor and mentee. In your idea, what does that transaction look like? Because it's obviously...

Well, I would say it starts with a different transaction. So people go around and they go, like, I want a mentor. Like, I'd like Robert Green to mentor me or whatever. Obviously, that was something I was interested in. But that's not how it starts. You don't just like you don't go up to someone and you'd be like, I would like you to be my husband. Or I would like you to be my... This is why I want you to talk about it.

I want to go to coffee to pick your brain for two hours. Yeah. Like the transaction was Robert needed someone to transcribe hours of interview footage, and I did that. And then when I proved myself to not be an idiot or a weirdo or a flake, although almost was a flake, then a relationship can emerge over time. So even like, like, it's not like you were like, Ryan, you are officially my manatee. You know, that thing never happens either.

You don't even, not even like in a relationship where you have the talk. It's something that evolves over time. There's plenty of people I've had transcribed things for me that the relationship, the connection or exchange went no further because just there wasn't anything there or it just didn't work. But like, I mean, this was in 2007. Six, I think. Yeah, six or seven.

So, like, it was over a period of like several years that this evolved. And it started doing little amounts of stuff. and became more complex. But I think people think it's like this official thing or this thing you start with when it really starts much smaller than that. And the transaction is like, do you make this person's life or job easier?

I am currently overseas and don't mean to brag, but I am not bloated. And that is a huge thanks to my ice roller. I do cold showers and array. I have talked about Array for the last two years, okay? It is created by a doctor. It is 100% natural filler-free organic and it's an herb. It's made with five herbs. Okay. And it's all designed to help you not bloat. Especially after a big meal. I had vodka spicy pasta last night. It was so delicious like this penet with lemon, chili flake. And afterwards, I took two array to help with bloat and I cannot believe how I woke up. Before I would have woke up with this huge bloated stomach and with a ray because it has these fruit-based digestive enzymes, I woke up with a flat stomach. It's honestly wild. Basically, it has all the things you want when it comes to bloating. It has like a lemon bomb, a slippery elm. It even has

this pineapple enzyme called bromelene, which really, really target bloat. It's also completely laxative-free. So you're not running to the bathroom. But if you suffer from any discomfort gas or bloat after you eat, this is what you need. Everyone is talking about it. I'm not surprised. Also, the packaging is super chic. You are going to go to array.com and use code skinny at checkout. You get 10% off of a one-time purchase or you get 25% off your first month subscription. So I'm on a subscription. Super easy. Just gets shipped to my house delivered to my door and my bloat is gone. That's array.com use code skinny. I find too when people reach out for me to mentor them, it's 90% of the time, it's an ask.

Yeah. It's, it's, can I pick your brain? Can I come work with you to better my career? I think I would recommend going into it with a give. Give, give, give. And Gary V always says this, but then, you know, come back, come back with the ask way later. I think provide the value.

You may never have to ask. Right. So in your perspective, what did you see that Ryan was doing that made him unique? Well, the key thing is, because he said it evolved over time and one thing he, I think he left out or maybe I've got it wrong is the American Apparel thing that kind of came in in the middle there. Yeah, but that was a couple, that was a year or two years in, I think, yeah. But basically, the most, the key thing why he worked out is because of his character. And I'm not diminishing his intelligence because without the intelligence, none of it would work. But the fact that

he wasn't a flate, the fact that he was reliable, the fact that he would always kind of be there for me and that he was eager. And most importantly, the fact that he could take criticism. Not that I was criticizing Ryan because it was not much to criticize, but occasionally the research or something that I wanted wasn't quite of, you know, wasn't quite fitting with what I needed. And I would tell him that. And boy,

I've had that experience since then where I criticize someone who's now my trying to be my researcher and they just kind of melt and, you know, disappear and I never see them again. He could take criticism. So the main thing was the character, right? If he didn't have that character, If he had shown early on that he was all kind of egotistical, because that's another trait that a lot of people have there,

so in a hurry to make their name to impress you. And he was not like that at all because ego is the enemy. He was already kind of like that. The character is the key, and people don't understand that they think it's their resume, the fact that they went to Brown or Harvard, and they got an MBA and they da-da-da-da-da. It's not. It's like what's deep down inside, whether you can take stress,

you can take criticism, and you can do boring work. Because those transcriptions, I remember them, half of it was nonsense, and half of it you couldn't even understand. And yet he didn't complain, he did it. He did, like, probably the most menial job I could give him. And then later it came out that he's actually incredibly smart, you know, and so, and then he had the other thing that's very important is, and that's where the American Apparel thing comes in,

is I wasn't so good with the internet and technology. I'm still kind of not very good at it. And Ryan, obviously, a different generation was really good. It was like, you know, in his blood, he just had a feel for it. So when you're looking for a manatee, whatever. I think we should make this a thing. That's on the title of this episode.

They have to be able to supply something that you don't have. Right? So saving time is really good. Organizing is really good. But also, you have a skill that doesn't make me feel insecure because I realize I'm an idiot, a moron when it comes to technology, but you're filling a gap that I can't do by myself. You have a need. You're creating.

I become dependent on you, which is one of the laws of power for something. It was very, very important. So those three factors, the character, the, I forget what the second one was. I had another one in there. And the fact that he understood. also the spirit of my books, which really helped, right? So when I gave him research to handle, I didn't have to explain to him that a story needs to be dramatic. It can't just be kind of fitting the idea. It also has to have some theatricality, something larger than life about it. He got that

he understood my books. I mean, I could go on for hours about, you know, the qualities that made it work. And since then, I've never been able to find anybody who could match him. It's sort of been the downfall, my Achilles heels since then. I've been looking and looking. The best manatee you've ever found. Well, I would love to keep doing it and he won't actually let me. I can't let you world famous writer with 20 best-selling books do research for me. I bet you he would. But see, that's the thing. I think, like, when I think about a lot, there's the,

there's some, was it Aristotle? Somebody said like this is all scraps from somebody else's banquet. Do you know that expression? It's like that Aristotle said it was all scraps from Plato's banquet or something like that. Like a good chunk, I don't know if I've said this, but a good chunk of the stories in like, say the obstacle is the way are things that I found when I was looking for stuff on, you were like, hey, go read about this person or go look at this thing.

And they didn't, they either didn't work for you or you're like, that's not good enough for me. But like so, but you sent me down all these different alley, like things that I wouldn't have read or explored on my own. So I think when people, people like they kind of have like an agenda. Like, oh, I want to get introduced to so and so. I want like you to help me get followers, which is not, I think what you want out of, like to me. Like to me, it was like, what am I going to learn? What am I going to be exposed to? And like, so like when I say I would still do the research, it was in doing the research on your books that I discovered so much stuff that now

benefits me today. So you have to be able to hand yourself over to like the direction of the other person because you get, you get, it was like, I felt it was like taking a graduate course or a master's degree in like your genre of thinking. I think that's what's so beautiful about you guys' relationship is to see how it's evolved over time. I mean, even with the daily laws to see that now and you have the daily stoic and you guys have like kind of just intertwined and grown together, which is so cool. Yeah, both of your writing, because we're both, obviously, big fans are so different, but there's some common themes. Like, obviously, you guys both anchor into these very powerful or, you know,

thoughtful historical characters. Like, that's a common theme in both of your books. It's high-level reading, but at the same time, it's digestible for people that may not read so often because you're hearing these stories about these people where things actually happened, right? Where it's not like, you're not trying to imagine something that's fictional or some kind of like, you know, pie in the sky thought. A lot of these, you know, we're not, you know, in this great bookstore and a lot of these ideas, like you have to really kind of like think and try to apply. But with your writing, you use these examples, you're like, oh, that's how that is applicable here. So what is your relationship today? What are the differences? I mean, obviously,

there's a lot from when you started to now. The main difference is Ryan has had this incredible success. You know, I've told other people, I'm not going to get all emotional on you here, but it's kind of like the sun I never had. So I'm very proud of it, you know. It's not like I made him like I'm the father kind of thing, but I'm very proud of it and it gives me a very nice feeling. So the relationship has evolved so it's more kind of equal than it was. I'm not going to, I don't feel like I'm a mentor anymore. I still learn from him. We're talking in the car or now and he's giving me ideas for my books constantly. So it's become much more of an equal thing, you know. And it's just, it's just nice to have a relationship because I talked about this.

in the laws of human nature in the chapter on generations and how having a relationship with someone who's from a completely different generation is a very enriching experience. Of course you have that with your kids, but that's a lot different because that comes with a lot of stress. So I didn't have the problem of raising Ryan and him rebelling and hating me for a while and then yelling and screaming at me all the time. But it's very nice thing to kind of bridge the gap between generations because I get to see the world sort of through his eyes. I get a different perspective on life, and he gets to see kind of what an old dinosaur,

sort of how they view the world kind of thing. So there are many aspects. It's a very enriching experience. And we live in a world now where people throw up so many walls between races, between generations, between genders, you know, and it's all about my little narrow identity. And I hate those kind of walls. And I really like to have like a good, solid interacting relationship with somebody from a different generation where I don't look down on them because I'm a boomer and they are a millennial and they don't look down on me because I'm a boomer.

I think it's a very, very enriching experience. And it's really one of the best things that's happened to me. You taught me this. And I think this is the law you're referring to, but I'm not sure it might have also been in power. You taught me to never shit on other generations and say, oh, that generation. entitled. Oh, that generation's lazy. And you hear that all the time when you talk to older people, you hear them putting these generations in a big category. You hear from each generation both sides.

But when I heard that, I was like, oh, I sometimes do that and I completely shifted my thought process with that. Which generation would you be putting in? You mean the older generation? Meaning like sometimes I would say, oh, you know, 20 year olds like there are, like there's like sort of an entitlement. And now I'm like, okay, but a 20 year old has a lot of tools. that I don't have at my age. So I shifted my perspective with it. Well, you hear it all the time now, like the older generation is shitting on Gen Z. Or even the generation above us shitting on millennials.

You know, like a lot of times it's applied to like work ethic, right? Like people say you don't have work ethic. But to your point, and to Lawrence point, I think when you hear it from people, it's like you're kind of disregarding every single person in that age group, which is probably not a thing to do. The other ridiculous thing is it's been going on for 4,000 years. One of the oldest pieces of literature, which I mentioned in that chapter, is a complaint in like ancient Sumeria about the young generation,

how they're going to leave this world more crappy than anything. They're like shifty and lazy. Yeah, it's hilarious. It's like part of nature as you grow older to see the young people coming up, to feel kind of a secret envy for their youth and to kind of disparage them. It's a theme that transcends. You know, I read a text from 13th century Japan and this guy who's talking about how the young people don't respect tradition anymore. They don't know how to do a ritual. They're always in a

hurry. Thirteenth century in Japan, I mean, it's international. It's universal, right? So it's going to happen to you when you get older, you're going to start looking down on the next generation. So maybe have some distance and realize you can overcome that and have a different perspective that's more kind of empathetic. So Michael and I are very big on travel. It's a big part of our relationship. It always has been. We'd love to go to new places. try new restaurants. And usually Michael takes this over, but I've been helping him lately

thanks to this app called Scorch. A bunch of friends who are in the influencer world told me about this app, and it's kind of like a secret. It tells you all the amazing spots in each city. So when I first moved to Austin, I was able to download it and see this curated map

of the coolest, trendiest spots. I just feel like, even if you're in your own town, you could download this. and find places to take Instagrams, you could get drinks, find amazing restaurants. It almost reminds me of an app for tastemakers. So sometimes you guys will message me and be like, how did you find this spot? Typically, it's either through friends or the app scorch. So what I do is I have my scorch app and then I just go on there and I put the city that I'm in and it tells you the most on point places. It's also sort of a

social app so you can follow friends and influencers to see where they go. And you can put host your profile in real time when you're out. So you can see, like say you're obsessed with this one influencer, you can go on and see where they're going in a certain city. So when I moved to Austin, I went on there and I really got to see where all my favorites were going. And it was almost like taking the research out of it for me. If you're an organizational freak like me and like Michael, and you want to have a curated list of each city that you're traveling to or where you live, you have to check out this app. So if you're a long-time listener, you know I'm all about the curation. So this app is a dream for me. Trust me, you guys need to download Scorch ASAP. That's S-K-O-R-C-H. It's free on the app store.

And you can also check them out on Instagram at Git-S-K-O-R-C-H. And of course, links are in the show notes. You can thank me later. One of the things I would add, though, is I think people are like, oh, I want to pick a successful or a rich person. and then like, I want to learn from them. And that can, like, obviously be beneficial. But, like, what I think Robert is, is, Robert is, like, the greatest of, like, your generation at what you do. Like, there's almost no one who was publishing business books when the 48 laws of power, but you're not even in a genre because you invented your own genre, but, like, very few books that came out in 19, when did the 48 laws? So, like, very few authors who were publishing books in 1998, who are not named, like, Tom. Tom Clancy or whatever he's dead, but who are putting out books now that are still selling

millions of copies, right? So like to you, I think you want to look at someone who's done it for not just well once, done it consistently, repeatedly at a high level and has sort of carved out like their own, you want to, you want to attach yourself to one of those people. And so I think what I'm sort of constantly humbled and inspired by with Robert is it just like no one has done what you've done or is continuing to do it at the level. I mean, it's just in, it's insane. Like when you look, we're talking about this today. When you look at the, the laws of human nature that you got people to read a book of that weight that isn't like, oh, let me tell you how to manifest your energy into reality. Like, like, it's easy to sell books to people that tell

them what they want to hear. But to sell millions of copies of books that like really challenge people and force, like, how do you write a book about ancient history and philosophy and psychology and strategy and then have it be so popular that it's banned in the federal prison system or that it's like, like when you look at lists, like Robert's books are also always the most shoplifted books. Is that true? Yeah, because like, these are people who don't like go to bookstores and read. They're just like, oh, I've heard about that book. I'm like, so like to take a thing that shouldn't be accessible and make it accessible, to me that's,

so much more meaningful and powerful than, like, oh, this person is just successful at what they do. It's interesting, though, because I've been listening to so many interviews. I told you off air that I've listened to almost every podcast you've been on. There are some hosts that are offended by the, they think it's manipulative. And they kind of come at you a little bit, which I don't think that's a good idea. I'm just saying, but they kind of come at you in a way that, like, they almost want to sort of prove you wrong on the interview. You always do an incredible job and remain very stoic. Very diplomatic. Yeah, but I would love to know if you get that in your daily life with people

they think maybe it's manipulative. Well, maybe you showcase an ugly, hard truth of human nature that a lot of people don't want to face, right? I think people would like your books not to be true or necessary. Yes. Yes. Which doesn't really matter. No. Well, you know, I make a point of being, having written the 48 laws of power, which is kind of a strong, notorious book of showing people, because it really isn't outwardly my style if you get to know me, you know? I kind of show that even a little bit more to people if they first meet me. So they don't get, because they're always a little bit intimidated. The first time we met, I was like, oh, Jesus Christ, what is this guy thinking of? about me. What do I, what do I got to say? Well, I am thinking about you and I am analyzing you,

and I am kind of decoding your body language and stuff like that. I just don't never tell you. But now we kind of love each other a little bit. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, now you're totally relaxed. I'm not as scared, yeah. Maybe it'd be better if I scared you a little bit. But, you know, it's a problem because people are constantly interpreting whatever I do or say. So if I'm five minutes, ten minutes late for a meeting or something, they think, oh, he's, he's practicing a law of power. Or if I write a certain email with a certain tone, oh, Robert's being manipulative. So, you know, I'm very aware of that. And I'm trying to like diffuse it all of the time so people don't treat me in this very defensive way.

You know, but I've had 25 years now, sorry, 23 years of dealing with it. So I've kind of... You know what I think it is? I think that when people deal with you, it's probably a little bit of that, but it's probably more of, oh, this guy really sees me. He sees everything about me. He sees whatever I'm thinking, whatever I'm doing. That's what it is. People, not everybody wants to be seen, right? That's probably true. But what I usually say is like if you have a strong negative reaction to the 48 laws of power when you read it or just the idea of what's in the book, that's a person who should definitely

read the book because you are probably going through the world projecting that at things that you don't like or things that you think are unpleasant or, you know, dirty or whatever. Like, if you want that book not to be true, then you definitely need to read the book, not because it will make you a psychopath or something, but because it will make you less naive about how things actually do operate and how other people might be sizing up. that precise weakness that you have just exposed by pretending that you're above it, which you also talk about in laws of human nature, how we just sort of, we all, none of us want to admit that we do things like that

or have ambitions or desires or biases. We're above it. Yeah. I would love to hear from both of you because social media can be, can make, I don't want to say it can make people feel insecure, but there's a lot of insecurity on social media that I've experienced. just talking to women through DMs. How do you think people listening can manage their insecurities and also while we're at it, their egos? I think to me, there's value to be extracted from the platform,

but then you have to understand that the platforms are also extracting value from you, right? Like, there's the expression, if you're not paying for it, you're what's being sold. So, like, when I notice, I almost never go on, say, Twitter, and then afterwards I feel like better about myself. Like, I'm never, like, happier. Tell me about it. I either feel like the world is falling apart, or I feel like, you know, awful,

or I feel insecure or jealous or, like, not positive emotions. So, like, I have to figure out how, if there is value to be had on the platform, how do I have it without the downsides, which is usually either through, like, pushing and not taking, like, not like consuming or having like filters. So like I don't even have access to like most of the social platforms that like I do stuff on with daily stoic or or daily dad or my stuff. I'm like, hey, can you post this for me or like, hey, how's this doing?

I want to put stuff out, but I don't want the strings that come with it that tend not to be like conducive to mental health. That makes sense. Yeah. I use. I use. to think that like when we first started this show, I used to go in and read the reviews all the time. Oh God. In the beginning. YouTube comments. Talk about you should see Google reviews.

Like when you have a physical thing, the people that come in and leave a review, you just realize it's like, oh, this is, there is a selection bias here for the absolute worst, least happy, least sane human beings on the planet. And you have, yeah, you can't. My thought in the beginning was, okay, I'm going to read this. and I felt like, okay, we can take critical feedback. Let's say, you know, we need to improve the show or people don't like a segment or they don't like what we say.

And I started doing it. And then over time, I was like, okay, there was maybe some value in the beginning. And over time, you just started to see these types of comments. Like, okay, this is just completely pointless, not even engaged. Because it was taking, it completely takes you out of how you would actually, like we're doing, like, just called this, I won't call it an art form. But let's say these conversations, right? If you go into it and like, I just want to have a conversation with Ryan and Robert

without any kind of outside bias or else I thought, it was taking us out of that, right? because you're constantly thinking what's so-and-so, you know, Super Ninja 619, I'm going to say about whatever the hell I'm going to say. So we just had to stop looking at it completely. The best advice my dad ever gave me, and I have listened to this so gnarly. And when he was reading the reviews, I would tell him this, you can't read your own press clippings. And that means good or bad. Because then if you start reading the good, then you get caught up in that.

And you get addicted to it. And if you start reading the bad, then you get sucked in. And actually, it takes away from your capacity. capacity to work. Well, we've had, you know, like sitting now in the seat of, like, of Dear Media, we've had new shows start and we've literally had shows completely crumble and fall apart and people break up because they'll go and they'll read a bad review. Like, oh my God, and like, and like, it'll completely derail a completely creative person because they're stuck in what, you know, some buddy on the internet said about whatever they were creating. So somebody you interviewed?

Yeah, or like a show, just or not, not for us, but some other shows. And we'll just, people just, you know, they get so caught up in what somebody's opinion is online of their work. and then it just completely derails the work. One of the most exciting things that happened to the skinny confidential team this year was launching our co-brand with Canopy. We launched a pink, dreamy humidifier that sits on your bedside. It is so cute. It works.

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Even better use CodeSkinney 10 at checkout to save an additional 10% off your canopy purchase. Trust me, your skin mold, thank you. We talk about that in the 48 laws of power about staying above the fray. Like you can't get bogged. Like you have to create, I think, distance, artificial distance between you and the response. And you also, I heard this quote recently where it was like, if you listen to what other people think, you're useless as a compass. So like the idea of like you are the one, like you're the one making the show, writing the book or doing the thing. You're following something inside yourself.

and that's like your genius or your gift or it's the muses or whatever it is, you're calling. And if you put that aside to hear what random people on the internet or even like people in the New York Times or even like, I'm sure the 40 Laws of Power is rejected by publishers, like not everyone gets it. But if you listen to them, you wouldn't have ended up where you are. But then even though we know that, we still turn around and listen to like what other people say. I imagine that's what's scary about writing books that was you're doing. this thing without that instant feedback as you're doing it and then you just throw this thing out

in the world after it's complete and it's like now it's out there right like this is kind of for us it's a process right you like week by week yeah though when i was doing the 48 laws i had a a partner a package or yo stealther is very brilliant man very mercurial very brilliant and i would send him each chapter and also now my girlfriend now my wife she would look at each chapter so I had feedback. The thing that you have to understand is it's difficult. I have a lot of empathy for the social media, for people who have a hard time dealing with it, because I understand it for myself. When I start reading the reviews, it's, whoa, I start wondering about myself. It's very easy. And so I understand how it can become addicting and how it could damage you.

But the other thing is, you can't do anything in life unless you do get feedback. So it is a dilemma, right? If you just live in your little bubble and you go, I'm going to ignore the world, I'm just going to write my brilliant screenplay or my book or create this business, you're probably going to be in for a world of heard because you have to have people that you can listen to.

So there's two things you need to develop. You need to develop an objective voice of somebody you trust, like for me, Ryan or Yost or my wife, that you can get feedback from and you can trust them, right? And this other thing is, you can read those reviews, and I do, but you have to have some distance and you have to go, Super Ninja Six is probably some guy in his underwear who's really overweight, who's never done anything in life, and it's really full of envy. So I'm not going to listen to that. But another person who writes some kind of critical comment, well, maybe there's a little bit of truth in it. I could learn something from it.

And I know that's not easy. It's easy for me to say that because I'm successful. and when you haven't had any success, it's hard to have that distance. But man, it is so important to be able to develop it so that you can take objective criticism from people and not wilt under it and learn from it, you know? Next time I have objective criticism for you in our relationship. I'm going to remind you of this conversation and you're going to have to take it. It's hard to distinguish between the objective and then just the criticism.

Yeah. How do your partners fit into your world of writing? It sounds like both of your wives. are involved, kind of behind the scenes. How does it work? Well, it's evolved in the beginning. Her name is Anna. I would show her every chapter, even from the 48 laws of power. And it was weird in the 48 laws of power. Some of her criticism was good, but she got some things wrong. She was worried about the book. She thought I wasn't maybe having all these stories and things. So we had to fight. And I kind of ended up, you know, deciding on my own, I'm not going to listen to that. But since then,

she really understands my books and understands the spirit of them. So I show her each chapter, and now she's in a position where she literally edits them. And she line edits them, like for grammar and stuff. And if things don't make sense or confusing, she tells me, and I have to rewrite it. And it's painful. Like, I've writing a chapter. It's taken months and there's a lot of blood involved and I've like suffered, particularly now with how I can't type. And then to hear, it didn't quite work. I don't want to hear it, but I have to hear it because I'm getting somebody who's looking at it from different eyes. Because when you look at your own work, you're seeing it through this lens where you have no distance and it has a certain appearance to you.

But when it goes out into the public, it becomes an object. It's no longer inside of you. other people are seeing it from their 800 different, 8 million different perspectives, right? And that's the reality. Your viewpoint isn't the reality. It's how other people are going to view it. So having those two other eyeballs on the book are so critical. And I've come to trust her now so that, you know, I have to show her the chapters because I'm not going to send them straight to my editor until she's looked at them.

Because there might be something really dumb or stupid or something that doesn't make sense. I don't know how easy, how replicable that is because I used to work for a husband and wife who were screenwriters and directors in Hollywood. And man, they were fighting and it was nasty and bitter. And I didn't think it was very constructive. So that can, you know, that's violating the second law of power. You know, don't, not hiring friends. And so I'm violating my own law.

But it's working out very well because there's a lot of trust involved. I think the editorial relationship is really important. I would say one thing I've noticed, especially lately, like when I think about people I know who during the pandemic have sort of like either spun off the planet or politically people who spun off the planet or people whose work just gets weird, is like it usually is they don't have something that sort of like tethers them to reality. Like especially like if you're an ambitious person, if you're a driven person, especially if you have any sort of like kind of like manic or compulsive tendencies, you really need someone who's not those things to kind of balance you out. And so like if you become too obsessed with your work or, you know, people are like,

oh, I don't have time for a relationship. Like that's a really precarious place to be because you're so unbalanced in what you do. You don't have someone who's like, you said we were going to go to dinner, you know, or you don't have someone who are like, what are you talking about? You sound like a crazy person, right? So I think like one of the books we have in the store, there's this book called Clementine about Winston Churchill's wife. And, like, I was interesting to see, oh, yeah, he's kind of this, like, manic.

Like, he's obviously super talented, but, like, irresponsible person. And you need, he needed someone to, like, tether him to reality. And I think he said that his single best decision was, like, convinced, his greatest success was convincing his wife to marry him because, like, none of the other things would have been possible without it. And so whether it's a wife or any, or having kids or not having kids, the point is, I think you need something to tell. hether you to reality because doing work at such a high level is inherently a kind of precarious,

crazy, unstable thing. And if left unchecked, it can end really, really badly. Well, especially in success, right, having somebody who's known you through those stages of success and knows who you really are, right? Right. It can't be someone you pick up, like, way late in the process. Ideally, it's someone who, like, Samantha and I met, like, when we were in college before I'd done anything. So like it's like right around the same, like she was, she was there when I was transcribing those interviews. Oh really? Like I can't talk right now. I gotta figure out. Yeah. So, but so she isn't impressed by any of it and doesn't really care about any of it. And not that she doesn't care, but it's just, but it doesn't, it's just. She fell in love with you for you then,

not exactly. This is just like how it's always been. And so it becomes normalized. And then when you start to do it in an abnormal way, there's like a balance or a ballast that evens things out. You touched on spinning off the planet. We just did this whole episode about focus. And I feel like this last few years, people, I think one of the biggest struggles that people are going through is there's a lot of lack of focus, right? Like, people have just, and how could they're not be? I mean, there's a million different things going and that's pulling you out of your work. And what I had a quality I admire and admire in both of you is you guys have lived a life of extreme focus with one path of

like proficient, prolific writers, right? And it takes all of this time and all this dedication. We live in a time now where people are jumping one thing to the next or torn in 18 different directions. One minute, this is your career, the next minute's this. When you think about focus, how do you think about it? Well, he's like a monk. He and I think I learned a lot from you and that, like, you'd be like, Ryan, I need these papers. Just like drop them like under the mat. Don't even knock on the door. Or like, like, he's like very strict and very strict and very. But you have to be because, like, if you're not, you're at the mercy of unlimited interruptions, which is what we have now.

Not just unlimited interruptions, but then also, I know we're not supposed to make fun of generations. But, like, now you can travel anywhere. You know, like, you're not supposed to have a job that takes you into the office. Like, you're not supposed to have a house. You're supposed to travel. Like, so I think the world is even becoming less rooted. And so it's even harder to have. any kind of discipline because you're waking up here and then flying here and then first thing

you do is to your phone. It's like that's not an environment conducive to focus. And every year someone's telling you that the way you've been doing it is the wrong way and you get that feedback where I think like, Robert, when I think about your life, you've been writing for so long in such a focused way, not to say that there weren't distractions, but I'm wondering like if you were starting out now in this world and had all your youth back, do you think it would be the same? No, I wouldn't. I would never have, I would never have sold the 48 laws of power. First of all, the whole publishing world has changed. So I'm very lucky that it came out when it did. You would have figured out a way. I'm just going to put it out there. I guess what I'm asking is, do you think you would have been as

focused as you have been? Losing hair postpartum is such a bitch. I had this like thick, luscious hair when I was pregnant with Zaza. And afterwards, probably about three months afterwards, I noticed that my hair was falling out in the shower. And this was something I immediately wanted to nip in the bud. And so what I did is I researched everything. I talked to a bunch of celebrity hairstylists. I went online. I went on Instagram. I read books. I did everything that you could do to learn about how to grow my hair thicker, longer, and stronger. And what I found is microneedling is a godsend. Okay. So if you microneedle with some castor oil, you are going to grow your hair thicker. I it on my scalp every single night. I also think scalp massage is another tip that is so underrated.

And then, of course, supplementation. And the supplements that every single person recommended, doctors, friends, experts, everything was Nutraful. Nutraful supports healthy hair growth from within by targeting the five root causes of thinning, which are stress hormones, environment, nutrition, and metabolism. So my problems were obviously very hormone related. I even went and got my hormones tested. So to have Nutraful help me with that was unbelievable. How I do it is I take like three a day and I'll just put them out in like a little bowl in my kitchen and I'll just grab them like midday and take them. I have noticed such a difference. This is something that I have felt like you have to really be consistent with. It's not a one time thing. So you want to make sure you're

consistent. I would tell you to try it for three months to really notice a difference. But holy shit, My hair is thicker. It's shinier. I need less extensions. It's absolutely wild. Even my hair stylist, I won't see her because I'll be in Austin and then I'll go to L.A. and she'll say, what are you doing for your hair? Highly recommend. You can grow thicker, healthier hair and support the skinny confidential him and her show by going to neutraful.com slash skinny and you save $15 off with your first month's subscription. That is their best offer anywhere, you guys, and it's only available to U.S. customers for a limited time. Plus, you get free shipping on every. single order. Get $15 out at NutraFold.com, spelled N-U-T-R-A-F-O-L.com slash skinny. Enjoy. It's a good question. I mean, it's so hypothetical because, you know, since I was a kid, I was very, I mean, maybe I have OCD tendencies, which I know I definitely do. But as a kid, I was very much like that. So if I were growing up now, I probably wouldn't have the same character. It's so hypothetical, I don't even know how I could begin to answer. I guess what I'm asking is when you think about

how to achieve extreme focus, right? And how to be a focused person. And, you know, what are those traits? What are those tendencies? What do you need to do to be focused? Well, I've noticed that among young people that I've met, because the times that you live in are almost always going to have temptations, right? And I grew up and I have different ones that exist now.

So people who are successful are able to almost swim against the current and kind of overcome the temptations in their period, right? So I've noticed there are a lot of young people who I admire who are really smart. I was talking yesterday to one of his assistants who I was really impressed with. He's in his 20s. He's able to push against that and he's able to become super focused, right? And what is the cause? Well, if you understand something about if you want true success in life,

if you are truly ambitious and you're not bullshitting, you're not saying, oh, I just want the attention. and the exterior things, and you're not actually seriously want power and success, then you have to tell yourself, it only comes through going through the process like I described in mastery. You only are going to get it if you're disciplined, and that's what divides the people who really are kind of half-assed about it and those who truly want it. So if you really, really want it, you come to a point where you realize, I have to work really hard at this.

I have to deal with boredom. I have to deal with tedium, right? I have to overcome my own nature, which is always trying to find the path of least resistance, right? And so you find your way to that. And for me, I'm an example of that. I was 36 years old, something like that. And I was, I hate to see, you know, I've told this on many interviews, I was kind of a loser. I had no success in life.

I was wandering. I had all these different jobs and very depressed. I was desperate. So this guy, I meet this. man and he wants me to do a book which turns into the 48 laws of power. You know, all the lessons I had learned in life came up because I had learned a lot up to that point and I realized this is my one chance in life to make it. I better not screw it up.

And I have to be extremely focused and extremely disciplined. And I have to spend months, months not socializing, not doing anything because my life, and I mean literally, because I could even have been suicidal, my life literally depends on me succeeding with this book. So I think it was Voltaire who said there's nothing like facing execution that focuses the mind. I'm butchering it. I think that's right.

Yeah, so it's nothing like facing that kind of situation that's going to make you focused. So a lot of people when you're young, you don't have that kind of desperation yet. Right. Some people do. I mean, Ryan did. But if it comes to you, if it comes to you in your three days, that's okay as long as you have that kind of desperation and you know that this is the only way to plow ahead. You taught me this. You said in an interview, I think it was on our podcast, you said that your

definition of success is an empty calendar, something along the lines of that. I'm probably loving it. No, no, that's totally right. But I, before you said that, I had like my calendar booked from like morning to night and like I was like check. And I think sometimes that gets you to where you want to be, but then it stops working for you. I would love to know what you're, and I'm sure you guys have talked about this, but just selfishly, I would love to know your process of your hours of when you write. And then like, if there's a specific morning routine, I know you're a huge meditator. I would love to know a little bit of tools and tactics that you tap into to get the books done. I think for me, part of it is just like, I hate doing stuff. Like, is that that I'm lazy.

I just hate like obligations that were like somebody is like, I have to go do this at a certain time or have to go be here at a certain time. And then because, like, as a writer, your job is like sitting at the computer writing or reading or whatever, if, so the calendar is generally open. It's not like you're a salesperson. You're like sales call, sales call, sales meeting, you know, so then if it's like, oh, at 2 p.m., I have to, like, go here or I have to, like, go do this. Now, like, my whole day is around that thing. And then it's like looming and I can't think about it. And then it invariably, like, just as I, like, get going, then I have to stop and do that thing. And then I don't want to be late, so then I'm

early. It's like a whole fit. So, so I just found it's like, what is the point? I remember I was at American Apparel and I'd already written two books, but I remember, like, I was out for his run and then I like, check my watch. And I was like, oh, I have to like get back because then I have to like go downtown to like go to this staff meeting or something. And I was just like, what the fuck am I doing? Like, like, I've had this success and still like staff meetings or like dictates. like what I have to, like, that's not winning. Like, winning is not meetings and phone calls and obligations. Like, the whole point of success should be, like, more control over your life. Now, of course, certain, you know, maybe you're the president that that level of success,

you know, gets, you know, comes with that. But also it's realizing that, oh, a lot of people you think you admire are actually, like, the least free people you can imagine. Like, you think, oh, you have power of life and death over people, but also things have a lot of power over you. And so really deciding, like, one, what gets the best work out of you? And so for me, that's like not having to do a lot of crap. But two, like, what is happiness or contentment or meaning for you? And it's like, oh, not, it's having control over my life. So I just try to make decisions accordingly. What about you? What's your, I bet you you have the same process every day. I'm just guessing. I lead the most boring life on the planet. I want to hear it. I want to hear it. It's just

insanely boring. So I wake up usually around 630 or 7. I do a little bit of stretching. And then I go and meditate. I go to these same pillows that I sit on with, I burn some incense. There's a candle. And I meditate for 45 minutes. Every day. Every day. Even when you're traveling. Well, this morning I had to cut it down to 32 because we were sort of a hurry. Blame it on Ryan. It's Ryan's fault because I was... This is why you don't agree to do things because it impedes in the routine.

And it's sort of like counterproductive. You're in a hurry and you're meditating. But, you know, you manage. And so then every other day I take, because it's my stroke, I've always been an aerobic junkie. I have a special bicycle that I'm just in love with. I got a new really souped up version of it. And I go for an hour and a half up into the hills.

and it's just my, it's just sublime for me because it's, I get out of the house, I'm in nature, I'm away from people, and I love it. And then I come home and then I have breakfast. And then I like answer emails. I then have lunch, take a nap. And then at four o'clock or three 30, I start writing. Oh, wow. So it takes you a while to get to the right. I always imagined you writing at like 10 a.m. It takes you a while. Never, never at 10 a.m. And not since I was... It's later. I'm the exact opposite.

Like, I do, I wake up early. I run usually with the kids. You take a walk with your kids. Yeah, lately I've been running. Like, I run with the kids. Okay. Like, that's what I did this morning. But, like, I have to do the writing stuff first.

I get it out of the way. And then... That's much better. He's much saner than that. You guys sound like a married couple. You sound like Michael and you sound like me. So how long do you write for at 3.30? Well, people misunderstand.

When you're writing, and I think Ryan will know this, you can't write for. more than three or four hours or you're going to kill yourself. Even two hours is like, ah. So if I can go from 3.30 to 8 or 4 to 8, that's fine for me. And I'm a night person. My juices don't really start running until then anyway. And then the days that I don't bike ride, I do try and do some riding in the morning,

but I'm in a fog, particularly as I'm older. So I have to be kind of gentle and realize, let's just do it later, Robert. It's not going to work out, you know. And the problem for me that is arisen, I don't know if it's a reason. It's probably the same for Ryan is with the success, the amount of demands on my time is just skyrocket. How do you guys manage that? All of us, all of us introverts are here on a Sunday night. This is a big deal to be here on a Sunday night for everyone at the table.

We were just not going to show. And I was like, somehow I've made my life. I was like, I don't get invited to weddings anymore. I don't get invited to bachelor parties. I'm like, this is the best thing ever. Oh, really? Yeah, we'd way rather be here. We'd have to do this more often.

Yeah. I mean, but it is a big deal also that we're here on a Sunday night. all of us, meaning like, we all like love and value being at home. That's also another big deal. Yes. It's a very, very, very, very, I'm going to say a short list of people that I'm getting up on a Sunday night and coming. Totally.

I feel like, I don't know what's the list. I'm trying to think of who else. I told Michael today, I want to be invited to everything and go to nothing. And he goes, I want to be invited to nothing. Like I said at the beginning of this episode, guys, this was part one of a two-part conversation. You can look for the second part this Thursday. when we finish out the conversation with Ryan Holiday and Robert Green.

See you Thursday.