The Bossticks - W. Bryan Hubbard On The Future of Addiction Recovery, Rewiring the Brain, Trauma, & The Power Of Plant Medicine

Episode Date: June 19, 2025

#857: Join us as we sit down with W. Bryan Hubbard – Executive Director of the American Ibogaine Initiative. With a robust background in law, public policy, & community advocacy, Bryan is committed to transforming broken systems & tackling some of society's most urgent issues – including the opioid epidemic. Bryan recently launched the Texas Ibogaine Initiative alongside former Texas Governor Rick Perry, securing $50 million in state funding for ibogaine drug development trials – a naturally occurring compound showing groundbreaking potential for treating substance use disorders, trauma, & traumatic brain injury. In this episode, Bryan breaks down the harsh realities of the opioid crisis, how ibogaine disrupts addiction pathways beyond opioids, the damaging cycle of pharmaceutical abuse & its impact on society, & what it really takes to address addiction at its core!   To Watch the Show click HERE   For Detailed Show Notes visit TSCPODCAST.COM   To connect with W. Bryan Hubbard click HERE   To connect with Lauryn Bosstick click HERE   To connect with Michael Bosstick click HERE   Read More on The Skinny Confidential HERE   Head to our ShopMy page HERE and LTK page HERE to find all of the products mentioned in each episode.   Get your burning questions featured on the show! Leave the Him & Her Show a voicemail at [phone].   To learn more about W. Bryan Hubbard and read more about his transformative leadership visit https://www.wbryanhubbard.com.   This episode is sponsored by Woo More Play  Get Your Mushroom Vibez On. Visit http://woomoreplay.com to learn more!    This episode is sponsored by Momentous  Head to http://livemomentous.com and use code SKINNY for up to 35% off your first order.    This episode is sponsored by Squarespace Head to https://www.squarespace.com/SKINNY to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain using code SKINNY.   This episode is sponsored by Branch Basics You can use the code SKINNY15 to get 15% off at https://branchbasics.com/SKINNY15.    This episode is sponsored by Addyi  Learn more at Addyi.com.   This episode is sponsored by Fatty15 Fatty15 is on a mission to replenish your C15 levels and restore your long-term health. You can get an additional 15% off their 90-day subscription Starter Kit by going to http://fatty15.com/SKINNY and using code SKINNY at checkout.   This episode is sponsored by Spritz Society  Spritz Society is now available everywhere! Head to http://spritzsociety.com to find a store near you, and make sure to follow @spritz on Instagram for all their latest announcements and upcoming events. Spritz Society, Summer Starts Here!   Produced by Dear Media

The following podcast is a dear media production. She's a lifestyle blogger extraordinaire. Fantastic. And he's a serial entrepreneur. A very smart cookie. And now Lauren Everts and Michael Bostic are bringing you along for the ride. Get ready for some major realness. Welcome to the skinny confidential, him and her.

Hello everybody. Welcome back to the skinny confidential, him and her show. Today's guest has been in the trenches of one of America's biggest, silent wars, the opioid crisis. He's a lawyer, a reformer, and now one of the most radical voices shaking up the recovery world with a plant that most of us have never even heard of. Ibegain. From coal towns to courtrooms, Brian Hubbard has watched the system fail countless people. Today, he's here to talk about why he believes we need to blow the whole thing up and start again with something ancient, controversial, and powerful. This episode was recorded prior to Brian

accomplishing one of the most groundbreaking initiatives here in Texas. I was so happy to read this after we recorded this episode with him. Texas just made history. The state has earmarked $50 million in funding for FDA-approved clinical trials of Ibogaine, a plant-based psychoactive compound that has shown extraordinary promise in treating opioid dependency, trauma, traumatic brain injury, and other complex mental health condition. This marks the largest public investment in psychedelic research ever made, positioning Texas at the forefront of a national movement to rethink how we address addiction, trauma, and brain health.

And here's the thing, and we talk about this on the show, and we've talked about it for years. Whether addiction has touched you personally, it's likely touched someone you know personally or someone in your family. It is such a huge issue in this country. When we get into some of the stats on the lives that it's taking, they are staggering numbers. So obviously, we need to do something to kind of write this ship and get people the help they need. And our current methods have just not been working clearly. Lorne and I were super excited to talk to Brian Hubbard because this guy has been at the forefront in the center of many of the issues for years, and I think what he's doing is extremely important. So happy to share that

update prior to getting into the episode, but hopefully this episode also continues to reinforce the mission that Brian's on and helps in the small way that we can. With that, Brian Hubbard, welcome to Skinny Confidential, him and her show. This is the skinny confidential, him and her. Let's just lay the land. What is Ibogaine? Is that how you say it? Abigain. Abigain. Yes, ma'am. Explain what that is. Ibegain is an alkaloid that is derived from three West African botanical sources. It is also psychoactive. A lot of people have described it as the most powerful psychedelic on earth.

However, I would argue that it is in a classification unto itself. Ibegain is one of 26 alkaloids in the cultural pearl of the West African civilization known as the Bawydis. the Boetes have for centuries used the Iboga root in cultural and religious rituals for centuries. In 1962, an individual from Gabon gave a guy by the name of Howard Lotzoff some Iboga. Howard Lotzoff had been heroin dependent for several years. And because he was kind of a substance omnivore, he took this because he wanted to understand what it would do. and after he had the experience, which lasts anywhere from 10 to 12 hours in its most acute phase, and then another 24 hours for what they call your gray recovery day,

at the end of the process, he realized that he didn't want heroin anymore. Not only did he not want heroin anymore, he didn't experience any withdrawal from not taking it. this touched off an unbelievable 40-year odyssey by Mr. Lotzoff, a guy by the name of Howard Cisco, another gentleman by the name of Dana Bill, a guy by the name of Mr. Boaz-Watchell, and Ms. Norman Lotzoff, his wife, to understand what about Abigang, seemed to essentially resolve physiological opioid dependency, dispersed and foremost among heroin addicts in the 60s, and then as the prescription opioid crisis unfolded in America,

starting with the approval of Oxycontinent 96, among those who are dependent on prescription opioids. There is a field of observational data that is mountains tall and decades wide that established them. Ibrahimine is a profound addiction interrupter. And as its application to folks who have been opioid dependent has been applied, oftentimes folks are not just dependent on one thing. They're engaged in polysubstance use, which leads to polysubstance dependence.

Over the course of the past 50-plus years, it's come to be discovered that Ibegain has profound interruption properties for not just opioids, but cocaine, alcohol, tobacco, and a substance for which there are no current effective medical treatments whatsoever, and that's meth. And what, if any, are the risks of engaging with ibicane? Ibrahimine is a very serious medication. I'm glad you asked that question. It comes with a cardiac risk profile, while it is a stimulant for reasons that are not exactly

known because it's what they call mechanism of action is still a mystery. It slows down the heart's rhythm and it prolongs the amount of time between heartbeats. So if an individual comes to the table with certain cardiac risk that predisposes them to a prolongation of what's called the QT interval or if a person receives too much, then it can slow the heart's beat and cause cardiac arrest. Abigail must be administered in a clinically controlled medical setting by professionals who know what they are doing. This is not something that is to be trifled with, self-experimented with, or explored through underground circumstances. So it's not like somebody taking a couple mushrooms or doing a little hit of acid. This is much more serious.

This is much more serious. Not only is there a cardiac risk profile that comes with it, but when an individual is, is experiencing Ibegain in the acute phase. They are in a state of ataxia, or what I would call, quasi-parallysis for 10 to 12 hours. 80 plus percent of people who receive it also usually purge or throw up multiple times how they're having the experience. So you need to be with medical professionals who are given cardiac monitoring, who have the available medication to stabilize your heart if it comes out of rhythm,

and it has got to be medically supervised at all times. So would you say overall that this is a cure for all of these addictions? I would not assert that it is a now and forever more cure. Okay. Nothing that I'm aware of is a now and forever more cure. What it does is it resolves acute substance dependency in such a way as to prevent the onset of withdrawal by 80% of folks who take a single treatment. And for those who are opioid dependent, that number goes up to 97% with a second supportive dose, usually administered within three to five days of the initial flood dose.

Is there anything, and this is maybe a weird question, but is there anything fun about it? So meaning like, I mean, like if you're doing ayahuasca, like, you know, you hear all different kinds of experiences from purging to stomach aches, but then you also hear they had this profound experience, et cetera, et cetera. Is there anything that's fun? Or is it? it like not fun at all? The Ibegain experience has certain themes that are endorsed by folks who have undergone it. There is a introspective experience that can occur if an individual chooses to engage it. And I say chooses because Ibegain is an intelligent medicine. It's one that preserves an individual's free will to partake of the introspective opportunities it offers.

and I'll explain how that works in this way. If somebody takes five grams of psilocybin mushrooms, it's going to shoot them wherever it's going to shoot them. They no longer have volitional control over that experience. You are in the medicine. In the case of I began, if I were to take the necessary capsules to give me the effect, as long as my eyes were open and I was laying down, I would sit here and be as in tune and engage with y'all as I am.

right now. A person who receives ibogaine is at all times oriented to person, place, and time. It is not dissociative. However, if you close your eyes or put your eye mask on while the medicine is circulating through your body, you can have visions from your life or experiences that you have had in your life that give you a perspective on yourself, your relationship with those around you, and your relationship with the world that is unique to what perhaps you have ever experienced. Some people have a very harsh experience through that introspective journey, one in which they will often say, I was essentially before the throne of the judgment throne of God and was shown all those things that I had contributed by way of the pain inflicted on others.

Other people will say that they had just a spectacularly beautiful journey. that affirm for them, the love of God, their own specialness, and communion with those who had parted before. It's very much individual. How did you become acquainted with this? Is this something that you tried yourself? Did you hear about it? What was your experience with it? So my first encounter with plant medicine was in 2018, and I encountered it first intellectually

through a magazine article about a company called Compass Pathways, which in 2018 had discovered that the psilocybin mushroom had a dramatic impact on reducing alcohol consumption among those who were essentially struggling with alcoholism. They had conducted a study where 80% of folks who had been alcohol dependent were able to come completely off. I come from a family that had just generational affliction with its relationship with alcohol, so this just was very captivating to me. A friend of mine had a sister who was an underground practitioner in terms of facilitating psilocybin, journeys and having read that article, I just was curious. And I said, you know, I think I'd like to

visit with your sister if she would be willing to sit with me so that I can understand what this medicine does. So in 2018, I had my first psilocybin journey and that was the first of what became around nine that I took between 2018 and the fall of 2022. Through that process, I very much became a believer that these medicines that occur naturally are divinely engineered. And that They have been engineered to help us heal the wounds we inflict on ourselves and each other. When I had the opportunity to serve the state of Kentucky as the first chairman of the state's opioid commission, a job given to me because of a record compiled in state service as a leader of the state's social security disability and child support systems, as well as a law enforcement agency company company company,

the Office of Medicaid Fraud and Abuse Control, which investigated and prosecuted medical providers for fraud on that system. I had developed a reputation as kind of a no nonsense, get it done, take no prisoners, public servant who could make things run on time. You don't say. We can tell. You do strike you as a capable individual. I'm not going to lie. Thank you very much.

I was asked if I'd want to do that job, and I said, well, as long as the office is willing to allow me to establish this commission is one that is accessible to the average Kentuckyan, that is transparent with how we do our business. and that is accountable for our results. I'll take this job. Can I ask you a strange question? Sure. Are you a big reader? As I have time, I love to read. Because your vocabulary is so, listen, I love reading.

And your vocabulary is so wide and articulate and clear. If you look at the text message when I text you him in your DM, I said, this is one of the most eloquent speakers I've ever heard. Well, I just, when you hear certain people talk, I know. You can just immediately tell if they are well read. I know. I mean that as a compliment.

Let me just attribute that to accidental osmosis. If I've had any sort of vocabulary expansion, it's just been because it's happened to stick there, not any sort of predetermined plan. Did you grow up reading a specific kind of book or genre or author? Like, is there people that you look back on? They're like, they're sort of really informative of my earlier years? I'm going to give my age away.

You know how when ducking, hatched from their eggs, they implant to that mother, or they implant to the first limp, they imprint to the first living creature they see and follow it around. So I was culturally imprinted by President Ronald Reagan when I was about five years old. He was my boyhood hero, whereas other children had pictures of Joe Montana and Michael Jordan hanging up in their rooms. I had pictures of Ronald Reagan. Michael had Tupac.

A great poet in his own right without question. That is true. Also well read. You know, I hung on every word that the man spoke, and that generated just an independent interest in not just politics, but American history. And then I discovered the beautiful mind of Thomas Jefferson, and there are volumes of his writings and his letters. And if your audience wants to just be able to have a sublime intellectual experience, just read some of the personal correspondence of President Jefferson. He was just magnificent, even by today's advanced standards, a genius.

So that's the... I had to ask because if you left without me asking, I would be curious for the rest of the day and week and month. I like to hear people's recommendations who I personally deem to have incredible vocabularies and who have very well-read minds. That's why he married me. One other thing I'll add real fast, then I'll hit that. I have to give also credit to some preachers when I was a little child,

most of whom who didn't probably even have high school diplomas, but who learned to read out of the King James Bible. I heard a lot of that growing up. But to the story that we're here to tell, when I took the opioid job, I was asked to set some priorities. What is it that we need to achieve? And I said, well, let's recognize a couple of things. And in Kentucky's case, we had settled with a number of manufacturers and distributors of opioids for about $842 million.

Now, that's a heck of a lot of money to every person who's listening to this. To every regular working person, $842 million, that's an immense amount of money. But we consider the fact that this is going to be paid out to Kentucky over 15 years. and $842 million represents roughly eight and a half months of the gross cells of OxyContin for Purdue Pharma, we are talking about crumbs off the table of glutton's. And we had to make sure that this money that is being applied to a problem of immense dimension was used for its best strategic use. And I said, one of the things we have to look for is Kentucky's Manhattan, project opportunity to pioneer a therapeutic breakthrough for opioid-dependent individuals.

The treatment options we have are certainly better than nothing. They've saved thousands of lives. But government must always be about the business of trying to diversify, expand, and improve upon our society. So if we have something that will get us better results than what we have, I'm going to let you know about it. And I think that we will need to take a small percentage of this money and see what we can do in terms of pioneering a breakthrough. And I said, I don't know what that is, but I'm going to get to looking for it. I had read an author by the name of Juliana Christina, who writes a substack newsletter called The Journey. And she wrote beautifully about the way in which her experience with psilocybin mushrooms helped

her resolve issues that had risen in her adolescence around significant anxiety, significant treatment resistant depression, her development of a near fatal eating disorder, and I would add to this, and I do so with all due respect, she talked about the fact that she had been a hardcore atheist for many years, and over the course of her psilocybin mushroom journeys, she resolved her anxiety and depression issues, she overcame her eating disorder, and she resolved her atheism. I reached out to her and I said, I've read your writing for some time. You are beautiful in terms of how you express yourself, what can you tell me about the world of psychedelics and whether there is anything within it that will have an impact on opioid addiction? And on July the 29th,

2022, we had our conversation and she said, have you ever heard of Ibogaine? And I said, I had not. That was the first time I heard the word, and that touched off a six-month period of intensive due diligence research and critical examination that constituted a second full-time job in addition of my official responsibilities. And after looking at it from all dimensions, from the experiences of those whose lives had been saved with it, to the conclusions of the foremost medical and scientific researchers, I concluded that, indeed,

Ibegaine represented Kentucky's best Manhattan Project opportunity to pioneer that breakthrough. On May the 31st of 2023, myself and then Attorney General Daniel Cameron went out onto the grounds of the state capital and announced that the commission that I led would explore the possibility of putting $42 million up that would be matched by a drug developer who would come in the state and develop Ibogaine as a breakthrough

medication for opioid addiction in the state of Kentucky, given the state that has been traditionally among the most impoverished in the country, the opportunity to lead the nation in a revolution in addiction treatment. And is that initiative met with resistance federally? Or from the state level? Or big pharma. Or big pharma. Like is it, what, what immediate resistance do you have, if any? Well, there were two points of immediate resistance in Kentucky. And it was not from the people. The people of the state, I'd had the opportunity before this announcement in May of 23 to conduct 20 town halls across the state where we went on Tuesday nights at 6 p.m. into various communities. And our purpose there was to say, we're the commission. This

our job, tell us what it is that we need to do. And when we had turned the floor over to the community, we heard just an unbelievable outpouring of grief over the devastation that they had experienced. And that grief was paired with a complete and total lack of faith that we, as government, had either the integrity or the competence to adequately address the circumstances with which they had lived for almost 30 years. So when we unveiled this project, the people of Kentucky by what I would estimate to be a 60-40 margin, and that was empirically established through a measurement of social media responses

to the campaign as it played out, were highly supportive of the development of an additional therapeutic alternative. The immediate vocal opponents were current Kentucky governor, Andy Beshear, who is now considered a top-tier candidate for president for the Democrats in 28 and the University of Kentucky. Both of them together,

fought this initiative every step of the way. Why the University? The University of Kentucky, since the termination of project, I've had some volunteer helpers do a little bit of following the dollar bills. And the University of Kentucky accepts a substantial number of dollar bills from the companies that create what are called the evidence-based best practice treatments, being primarily buprenorphine, which is the generic name of brand, name Suboxone, Sublocade, Subutex.

So all the things they give you when you're withdrawing or getting off of these opioids. They are opioids that are used to treat opioid dependency. Yeah, I think anyone that's listening that's had a family member or friend touched by opioid addiction, like you're familiar with these substances. Did you just hear what he said? He said they are opiates used to treat opiate addiction. That's correct. That to me is like we've lost the plot. We're treating opiate addiction with opiates. That doesn't make sense to me.

So the theory is, and this is how it was positioned when it was first introduced, the federal government spent $62.5 million to create the baseline formulation for buprenorphine. That's its generic name. And it is what's called an opioid agonist, an opioid paired with an antagonist, naltrexone, in one pill. You give this to an individual, whether it is a, a film or a pill, and sometimes it's an injection. And what it is supposed to do is satiate that desire for the opioid that has been hardwired into the brain while simultaneously creating a blocker effect so that if the person wants a high and they take a bunch of pills that are in addition to the suboxone, the blocker thwarts their effect and basically keeps the person from

getting high while simultaneously being satiated because of that lower level, lower level, dose of opioids. This was presented initially as the method by which you could bridge someone into complete and total abstinence. The thought was you give them Suboxone and you bring them down on their dosages until such time as they can be completely without and you have a fully restored abstinent individual. Well, as time has gone on, those therapeutic goalposts have been substantially moved on down the field to where at the point at which I became Chairman of the commission, much of what I heard from the ostensible experts was grounded upon the premise that this is a lifetime medication for this person. This is their new life. You have brought them from

the depths of destructive addiction. You have given them a lower level dose of opioid compared with a blocker that will prevent them from engaging in an illicit consumption that produces in high, while simultaneously allowing them to restore a level of functionality that can give them a chance to have a normal life. And in theory, that's all well and good. But what we know from research literature is that suboxone programs have about a 25% success rate. And that's as measured by patient retention. There was a study published in December of 22, which verified that 80% of suboxone patients stop attending treatment. within six months of initiation.

There are a lot of theories around that. Some would argue it's access. Someone argue it's the burden of trying to obtain access both financially and logistically. Others would argue that while Suboxo may thwart the onset of withdrawal, it does not satiate the desire that that individual has for all of those experiences that they have while they're high. We had the founder of Live Momentus on the podcast, and he, just raved about the benefits of creatine. So I started doing a scoop of that in my aminos. And now they have

just launched the women's three. And I think this is really cool because it's designed in partnership with Dr. Stacey Sims. If you've seen her all over Instagram, she's fascinating. She really knows her stuff when it comes to supplementation. So basically, it's a smart dosing protocol. In the AM, you get iron and a B complex with vitamin C. And in the PM, you get calcium and vitamin D3 with olive oil. AM and PM doses are optimized to boost absorption, which I think is really cool. The momentous standard, too, is crazy. There's a really high bar for ingredient sourcing and transparency, which is why I wanted to interview the founder. They really focused on three foundational nutrients, iron, calcium, vitamin D3. And they did it in their most

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So check them out now. Shop Branch Basics and 600 plus Target stores nationwide or Target.com. You can also use our code Skinny 15 to get 15% off at branchbasics.com slash skinny 15. Again, Skinny 15 for 15% off at branchbasics.com slash skinny 15. You mentioned earlier that you started to do psilocybin because of you wanted to explore it for alcohol. Did it help with any kind of alcohol addiction doing it nine times for you? I've never had any sort of substance use problem.

Okay. I had a childhood between two parents. parents who married young, and by the time I came along, that relationship was coming to an end. And what I can recall from earliest memories is a bunch of screaming and cussing and chaos. So why I've not had substance problems, I've probably, for the biggest part of my life, had significant anxiety issues all tied to those early childhood days. And what psilocybin did for me was help me work through those early childhood years in which the stabilizing hands of God's love for me were my grandfathers.

I had two Papaw's who were grade school-educated coal miners, and as a frightened little boy, they would come and get me on the weekends and have me spend time with them. And just about every time I'd visit before they'd send me home, they'd have me come sit on their lap and they'd say, Papa knows that you're scared. I can see it.

You need to know two things. Papal loves you. more importantly, God loves you, and God has a special and unique purpose to achieve with your life, no matter how bad it gets, no matter how frightened you become, don't you ever, ever doubt the reality of God and God's love for you. And I'm here to tell you to. If I had not had that lesson given to me repeatedly from the time that I could understand language all the way through age 12, I would not be sitting here if I were alive at all, certainly not in this capacity, having had the privilege of achieving the things that God has allowed

me to do with my life thus far. Did you ever resolve with your parents? Oh, absolutely. They were very young when they were married, and, you know, everybody should receive the grace that comes with some life experience that creates maturation. My dad is one of my very best friends in this life. I very much love and try to look after my mother as best I can. And I thank God for everything that they have each contributed to my life despite those chaotic early years. I'm too pregnant to hear this story. I'm so as sensitive right now. When you took the psilocybin, did it help you work through the anxiety alone?

Or were you with a facilitator? I was with a facilitator. You did it every time with a facilitator. Yes, ma'am. My friend's sister, her name is Ashley Hornbuckle. She sat with me through each journey that I had with her. There's also a gentleman by the name of Anthony Raspberry, who was a friend who has sat with me. Anthony Raspberry, what a name.

Isn't that a great name? He lives in Louisville, Kentucky, and both of them at different points in time sat with me as I had those experiences. You know, I was curious at first and then became committed once I understood what it was doing within me. and what I found most sublime. I think this is relevant to talk about giving your experience and your knowledge of this space. What things would you caution people against if they're thinking about exploring psilocybin or if they have been exploring psilocybin and what are things you would maybe push them towards or tell them to maybe stay away from?

The first thing that they need to do is make sure that wherever they are seeking psilocybin, that they are seeking it from an individual who is a trusted source, someone who knows what they are doing and someone who has experience under their belt to make sure that the set and setting is appropriate for the journey that the individual may choose to take. So doing like chocolate mushrooms at the rave that you get from a random person isn't the vibe? That is correct. You know, there's a, there's with this psychedelic renaissance, as it's called, there's a tremendous amount of activity around it.

And you've got a lot of mixed quality. participants around this. So make sure that your facilitator is someone who is credible, someone who is experienced, and someone who is put in your welfare above all else. If they're offering you chocolates in a party, that's not exactly the experience that you may want if you are seeking the therapeutic benefits that come with this. I would also suggest that psilocybin, in particular, all plant medicine, needs to be approached with greatest respect. and reverence, because these are without question, engineered in such a fashion as to work with human physiology to open up windows to experience states of consciousness that enable us to look behind

the veil of this side of eternity. And that's not to be taken lightly. With all the different plant medicines, do you understand all of them because of your experience, or is it just primarily psilocybin and abagate? Like, do you, would you go through like the Bufo and the ayahuasca? So in terms of my own personal experiences, those are primarily around psilocybin. And then after the Kentucky initiative was announced, I very much had the conviction that if I were going to get out

and be an advocate for I've again, then I needed to pony up, manette, and take the medicine that I was advocating that others have the opportunity to try. You tried it. Oh, absolutely. I saw that as a fundamental responsibility.

I had to be a responsible advocate. He's potentially introducing other people to it. But if you didn't have an addiction, what did it do for you? Well, keep in mind, as we talked about at the beginning, the Boidis have used this for centuries in their religious and cultural rituals. They have found that it has ceremonial benefit, if nothing else. For me, you know, just as with psilocybin and other plant medicines, you go in and you set your intention within yourself as to what you hope to achieve.

And for me, I asked that if it were possible that the cross of anxiety that I had carried for as long as I could remember be taken off of me. And at the time my wife and I, we went together. My wife had been diagnosed with a significant psychotic mood disorder in 2001 after the birth of her son. It's both of our second marriage. We've known each other for 24 years, and this year we will have been married for nine. After the birth of her son, she had a significant postpartum depression that translated into a psychotic mood disorder. And she was placed on Selexa, which is an SSRI, and she had had to take it. At that time, roughly every day for 22 years, I couldn't be in the room with her if she missed it for a day.

I could see it in her eyes. I could see it in her facial expressions. And she would become a danger to herself as well as me. Why could you not be in a room with her? Like, what do you mean? because she was so unbearable. Volatile, volatile, and potentially violent. Like I said, it was a,

the postpartum depression translated into a psychotic mood disorder that was somewhere on the bipolar spectrum. I remember sitting down with her and her psychiatrist when she had to have her medication adjusted sometime around 2017 to understand what was going on with her. So as we conducted public hearings in Kentucky, around the Ibrahimagame project. I had made the commitment internally that I was going to receive the medicine so that I could speak to it with credibility.

She had heard the testimonials of about 24 individuals who came to Kentucky. A lot of them were veterans who had gone to the VA for treatment of either physical or psychological problems, have been given the usual panoply of medications that the pharmaceutical industry produce, all of which in some total essentially served to anesthetize the soul and slowly, euthanize the body. And as a lot of these veterans are ready to take their own lives, they threw a hell-marry pass, went down to Mexico for an avagane treatment. Many of them, with an average number of prescribed medications of seven, taking pills that are 20 plus every day. And when they were done, they didn't need to take any pills anymore. And these gentlemen and some

ladies were completely and fully restored from the perspective of the damage done to their minds and bodies from the traumas of war. My wife heard these testimonials and said, I wonder if I did this as well if I could come off of Selexa. So we both went down, and what I can tell you is for me, and I have had two Abagate experiences. One was in November of 23 at a place called Ambio that is south of Tijuana. There is another clinic that is in Cancun called Beyond, B-E-O-N-D.

These are two clinics that are able to treat people at relative scale compared to others, they have impeccable safety and efficacy records. And because they are the two clinics that are the most known and most voluminous in terms of patient capacity, I wanted to be able to speak to the safety and efficacy of both. After the first I began experience, I would have to say that at that point in time, that was the most profound spiritual experience I had ever had in my life. I can't say that it was beautiful. I can't say that it was pretty or comforting at the time that it was being experienced,

but it was profound. My wife's experience was profound and beautiful. And I am so thrilled to be able to say that her last Alexa was taken on November 23rd of 2020. And she has not had to have one since. And have you been able to be in a room with her every single day? Unless she's on her period. I'm just kidding. Her personal personality and spiritual metamorphosis over the past, coming up on two years now, has been incredible.

She is very much a left-brain rationalist. When we were going down, she said, you're going to be the one who has all the visions, and I'm not going to see anything. Well, it was almost the exact opposite. There was not much that I saw. But for her, I could not have sat down with all the vocabulary that you perceived that I have. It's not a perception. You have it. And have written a journey for her that would even came close to what she actually had. Can you walk someone through maybe a couple of moments that has no idea what you mean by a profound journey?

Meaning like, say someone's like, what does he mean by that? Did you see things? Are you thinking of your childhood? What do you mean? So for me, at the beginning of the journey, there were two significant points of acute anxiety that were occurring. at the time. One was, I have too much younger sisters. We share our mother. They have a different father. Their father died in a tragic circumstance. On the Friday after Thanksgiving, which was the Friday before we were to go for Ibegain treatment on Sunday, I made it to the hospital 10 minutes after he had passed away. And I sat there with my mother and my sisters while they took it all in for

about two and a half hours with him on his deathbed. The other significant point of anxiety related to the fate of the Kentucky Ibegame Project, the Attorney General for whom I worked, had rotated out of office, a new guy was elected, and while he said he was open-minded to allowing the project to proceed he had not committed, I had poured everything that I was, and to try to make this happen. And when I went down, I probably hadn't had more than about four hours sleep in at least a year, because of how much just... You mean per night?

Obviously, per night, you couldn't sleep more than four hours a night. That is correct. Literally, this was an extremely high-risk project. It had a tremendous upside, but navigating the shows of circumstances at home and within the office to make this a reality was extremely challenging.

So could you just not fall asleep, or you would fall asleep and then just wake up all night? There was a combination of both. I mean, there were some nights that I would lay there tossing and turn him wondering, how am I going to pull this off? Are we going to pull this off? There were other times I could get to sleep, but I'd wake up at 4 in the morning,

and there was no going back because my mind was just turning 1,000 miles an hour, most of it driven by anxiety. So when I had my journey with Ibegain, you know, the very first thing that happens is you feel this heaviness and you've got to lay down. And for me, I had these little small little visions that were kind of sci-fi in nature at the very beginning there was like a little, I would close my eyes, and there was this little pink flying saucer that came to the end of my nose, and flew away, and there was this four-cornered canopy that looked like the starry sky

that came over me. And now, at any time, if I didn't want to see any of this, the only thing I had to do was take my eye mask off and open my eyes. But I wanted to have the experience. So I was laying there, and this four-corner canopy came over, and it looked like there were these two humming birds that came underneath the canopy, and they took their beaks, and it looked like they were vacuuming, and I was watching. And it was like someone unplugged a two.

TV, it just went away. And in place of the story canopy and those human birds and what was a fade in was my sister's father on his deathbed as I saw him with his eyes and mouth open. And he was in full color detail, just looking at me. And I thought about him. I thought about his life, the difficulties he had had, the tragedy in which it had ended. And what? wondered, is this all that there is? Are we born into this world to live, to suffer, and then to die, and this be the end? Is this really all that there is? And I just started looking at him, thinking about myself, thinking about others, and I started to experience the most intense and profound existential terror that I had ever felt in my life, all driven by what I thought was.

the pointlessness of human existence. And when I thought that I was going to explode in the middle of this journey from that terror, I was dropped into a pitch black void. I could see nothing around me except my own hands and feet and limbs. There was nothing. And in words that were not audible, but were telepathic, these came into my mind and they played

on a continual loop for ten hours and as long as those words were in my head I was at complete and total peace and those words were be still and know that I am God over and over and over

in pitch black total darkness me in total darkness me in total isolation and at total peace. And when I woke up, it was to my wife, who had undergone an almost transfiguration of just her face. I could see how rejoicing she was at what she had had by way of her own experience on the other side of the room while I was having mine.

And I looked at her instantly, and I said, it gave you what you needed, didn't it? And she said, she tears, stream down her face. She said it's the most beautiful thing I've ever experienced in my life. Now, I would not even attempt to tell her story. It was very visual. She re-experienced the birth of her son. She experienced an encounter with her mother, who was her very best friend in life, who at that time had been passed away for right about, I think her mother passed away in 2011. This was 2013. Her mother had been gone for 12.

years. And she had a perspective on who she was, what her relationship to her son and her family had been, what a relationship to the world was, and what her relationship to God was. So you had already been a proponent of this, and you were already pushing it, and then to be able to do it and to see the transformation of your wife even, like, led you further into it. Oh, yes, ma'am. And I want to be real clear, you know, the, the, the, the, the The pharmaceutical industry likes to do things like by institutions like the University of Kentucky, take their academic research and translate it into inflexible public policy, where there's this one-size-fits-all matriculation through their pharmaceutical systems.

I'm not here to suggest that Ibegain is for everyone. I'm not here to suggest that everybody needs to do it. What I am here to say is because of what it can do for the physiology of the brain, because of what it can do to resolve addiction issues, to address trauma issues, it should be available as a therapeutic option for anyone who would choose to have the experience that it offers. And from my perspective,

given what it has done for my wife, and certainly given what it has done for me and others who I've had the privilege of listening to, the fact that it is criminal is criminal. And the sooner that we can change that reality, the better off we are all going to be, not just as individuals, but as a species. Well, to me, it seems like all of these antidepressants and anti-anxieties and barbiturates are legal. Yes. And why can't we have this be legal as well?

Well, they're illegal, but they're also abused illegally all the time. these barbiturates and all these all these things right like these these are medicines that people abuse regularly and in some cases take may of way more of what's actually prescribed once they get hooked on them that is correct and you know you mentioned abuse i can't tell you the number of stories that i heard just from my vantage point on the opioid commission if people who went to the hospital with legitimate medical needs who were given pharmacology that that by design created physiological dependence. They are made to generate dependency by the individual who takes them.

I know one of the most successful businessman I know he doesn't ever drink alcohol, doesn't have any substance abuse issues. He had double knee surgery. They put him on some of these things. He had to check himself into a recovery center to get off. And he's somebody who's never partaken in any kind of substance abuse of any kind. And he himself is, I would say, one of the... the most capable people I've ever met and personally could not get off of these things without

an intervention of help that he was fortunate enough to like seek that help for himself but like that just shows you how power like you would never think that this person I'm talking about would ever have any issue but it was this one surgery and then boom done oxycontin was engineered with knowledge of its addiction propensity they knew it you know I have a close family member that committed suicide and I sit here and listen to you. I'm sorry. Thank you. I sit here and listen to you and think she was addicted to barbiturates and they kept prescribing barbiturates to solve the problem. But I sit here and I'm like, God, what if she had this option? I think about my own family and my uncles, great uncles, a great grandfather I never met, all of whom were hardcore alcoholics, the damage that was done to

their children, the damage that was done to their spouses, the suffering. that I got to see the effects of firsthand. How dramatically different would all of that have been, had this been an available option way back when? What a fabulous opportunity to break generationally compounding trauma when you just bring something different to the table that allows a person to feel the reality of their soul

instead of reinforces its sense of absence. There's likely, there's not one, I can't imagine, there's one person listening or watching this show that has not had someone in their life that is closer, one degree removed from closeness in their life that has been affected by some of the things we're talking about here. And think about the impact if you just, there's this one unlock that could help these people get through some of these substance issues. It would change, it would change the world. Not only, you know, not only from a health perspective and a mental health and a generational trauma, but from a cost perspective, too. I think that probably half of folks who are

baby boomers. And most of folks who are their children and grandchildren, look at where we are at as a society and recognize that we have come off the foundation, that we are in late stage civilizational development. And unless we re-more ourselves to some semblance of a spiritual foundation in which we are able to recognize the precious gift that is life, that we are bound for destruction. as a country. And we've got to start doing some hell-marry passes if we are going to essentially reestablish the primacy of the human soul. And that is exactly what should deserve first consideration

in all the powers and principalities that exercise influence over this country's future. So what is going on now in the space for people that are listening and they're just getting turned on to this idea and they're saying, okay, what are the options? What does the legislation look like? What does the government need to do? What do the people need to do? Like where? With your work, where are you at with all of this, getting people switched on to the possibility of looking at this alternative? One of the things that I think is important to recognize is that necessary change often comes slow, but it can come through an evolutionary process. And once you get that process to take hold, the pace at which it can accelerate can become exponential. there is a fabulous opportunity to medicalize the delivery of a breakthrough therapeutic,

such in this case, Ibrahimagane in the U.S. medical system, and that effort currently is being led by the state of Texas, where we are coming to the end of what has been an intensive six-month campaign through the state's legislature to advocate for the passage of a bill that would create a public-private partnership, whereby the state of Texas would put up $50 million to be matched by $50 million by a drug developer to get Ibegain through the FDA. Essentially, we are at the threshold of Texas finishing the job that I began in Kentucky. And if we are successful here, then we will have established a beachhead within the most influential state in the country

to create a medical framework through the delivery of plant medicines that can generate breakthrough, therapeutic effects for trauma and addiction. That begins with Iva gain because it has the very unique ability that no other plant medicine has to resolve physiological substance dependence, while also creating neurotrophic growth factors within the brain that restore brain tissue itself, something that no medication within Western medicine or any other substance, for that matter, that's known, can do. We're all about skin care at self-care. and mindset shifts. But what about our libido?

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I'm personally someone that tries to stay up on the news as much as I can in a productive way, try to read what's going on in the world. And one thing that I read the other day, which this audience is well aware of, in which Lauren and I talk about regularly on the show is that inflammation is wreaking havoc on people's long-term health. The older you get and the more inflamed you are, the more health complications you're going to have. This is why I'm so excited to share with you guys an incredible scientific breakthrough to support our long-term health and wellness, which is brought to you by Fatty 15. The founders of Fatty 15 discovered C-15, which is the first essential fatty acid to be discovered in 90 years

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So check them out. Fatty 15 is on a mission to replenish your C-15 levels and restore your long-term health. You can get an additional 15% off their 90-day subscription starter kit by going to Fatty15.com slash Skinny and using code Skinny at Chesa. check out. All right. I am craving Sprit Society, specifically the pink lemonade flavor. I had the opportunity of doing a skinny confidential flavor with Sprit Society. You may have heard of them. It's an award-winning can cocktail brand founded by my girlies, Claudia and Jackie from the Toast podcast. So why I wanted to do a collab with this brand specifically is, of course, I love Claudia and Jackie, but also it's made with real white wine, real cane sugar, and six ingredients

or less. So there's no artificial flavors. There's no fake sugars. It's just clean, simple, delicious cocktails. No BS. You should also know that each can only has 120 calories. How I like to drink this is I'll do a wine glass with a bunch of crushed ice in it. I'll pour the pink lemonade on top. It's so refreshing. I can't wait. Like I said, I'm getting there to have one, guys. And then I'll do a sprig of basil on top with a straw, and it's so delicious. It's the perfect summer cocktail. If pink lemonade is not your jam, they have lemon iced tea by Craig Conover from Southern Charm. They also have a pickle flavor and a peach flavor. They've really like nailed the flavors. And that shouldn't surprise you because they're the toast. On that note, you guys can head to

Spritz Society.com to find a store near you. And don't forget to follow at Sprits on Instagram. They're always dropping exciting new flavors and throwing fun events. Spritz Society, summer starts here. This episode is brought to you by Wu Moore Play. Let me tell you about the best vibrator ever. I am telling you, this vibrator, I have like 10. I have them all over the place. It's so good. It is the best. They just launched their mushroom. Vibrator. So it's shaped like a mushroom. It's beginner friendly. It's a quick easy O. Let me tell you. And it's cute enough to leave on your nightstand. So it doesn't look crazy. It's also BPA-free, which is awesome. It's waterproof and rechargeable. You're going to want to buy this for every single one of your friends.

They will thank you later. This is the best self-care I'm telling you. You can use it with your favorite woo-loob. I love their coconut oil based. lube. Just pick up the vibrator, thank me later. Get your mushroom vibes on at woo moreplay.com. That's woo moreplay.com. One other question is because I'm learning about this now and I want to understand you started this journey in Kentucky. Yes, sir. The university seems to be a hindrance and the governor over there, who again, I'm not mentioning any political biases, but is running as a Democrat candidate. I do. There is one thing that needs to be mentioned about him. I've already mentioned at the University of Kentucky as a substantial, is a recipient of substantial research

dollars from the pharmaceutical industry whose products they hawk. Andy Beshear and his father were partners in a law firm in Kentucky that represented Purdue Pharma against the people of Kentucky and the state's litigation over the thousands of deaths caused by Oxycontinent. This is why people get so frustrated because, again, I don't want to make this political, but it seems there's a real conflict of interest there. Right? Well, it is political. But it's political in this sense. The opposition that I experienced in Kentucky was bipartisan

because how Andy Bashir was a vocal opponent and is a Democrat, the newly elected Kentucky Attorney General who terminated this project is a Republican. And he came up through the Mitch McConnell machine in the state of Kentucky. And everyone who probably listens to you knows exactly who Mitch McConnell is. and what he is represented now for 30-plus years. This guy helps shine his shoes, and that's how he got to be where he is. There is an alignment of individuals who are both Republican and Democrat, but who both share a humanitarian realization that this society is teetering toward dissolution,

and we can look at that through any number of measures. We can look at that through the lens of what we see on social media and cable television news, where it is constant division, constant acrimony, constant rage, constant hate. We can look at it statistically, and we can see that since 2015, almost 1.5 million Americans have died from the combination of drug overdose, alcohol-related disease, and suicide. And that's a number that exceeds, All combat deaths of U.S. soldiers across all military conflicts fought in the history of this country.

We have a society that is immensely wealthy, that has tremendous technological prowess, but that is in the throes of profound spiritual affliction. And unless we start getting to the heart of the problem, which is the condition of the human soul, or the lack of connectedness to that soul, by at least 50% of the heart, of folks who have never had the opportunity to feel its reality, we are going to be stuck in a repetitious doom loop from which there is no escape. I also think, and this is maybe weird, but I think that if you could help solve that, it would change the frequency of the planet of America, the energy, the spirituality, it would like raise the vibration. When we see each other

as images of an eternal creator whose essence is almighty and unconditional love and recognize that that is our universal kinship as human beings. It brings an entirely different perspective to how we deal with one another. And one of the greatest attributes of plant medicines is its ability to affirm that concrete reality. One of our best conversations, I hate to break it to you, has been on plant medicine. Like, it is, it is, It does something to connect you with your significant other. I think it removes ego, right? Maybe. It certainly gives you a perspective on your own temporal existence, how that is measured by eternity,

and ironically, how significant you are within that eternity. Brian, what is the pushback that you're getting? Well, I think that there is some that is good faith. You know, there are a lot of people who have reactionary negative attitudes towards psychedelics, frankly, because of the way in which they were used in association with what's perceived as the cultural debauchery of the late 60s. Right. So it's like it was like it was overused. So then people have an opinion because it was overused. They don't understand how like. Or abused in a way that was not, the intention was not as a medical intervention. It was more like a release from. Or too much of a good thing.

Escapism. It was escapism. Escapeism instead of therapeutic restoration or medical treatment. You know, you have people who've been shown images for 60 years now. People taking mushrooms and rolling around the mud in Woodstock. Well, if that's what you think it does, you're not going to have a high opinion of it. But it should not have its power reduced to that one singular snapshot within the arcana of American pop culture memory because its history is that of thousands of years. We just so happen to be at a point in our history

where our materialist worldview needs a little supplementation with what has been known by less materialist civilizations about the spiritual realities of life. We need some of that here in the United States. When you went on Rogan, I'm sure that was crazy. What was the feedback that you got? From... from being on the show.

Well, I have to first thank a couple of folks for having the had the opportunity to be there. One is a guy by the name of Rex Alsace, who is the founder of the foundation with which I work, which is called the Reed Foundation, named after his son Reed, who passed away from a fentanyl overdose after a decade-long struggle with opioid addiction in 2019. When the Kentucky Project was terminated, he said, if I can open doors for you in other states, would you be willing to work with my foundation to try to preserve the work you've done? And I said, this has become the mission of my life. I'll go anywhere.

I'll talk to anybody, no matter how large or small, to try to give this a change to live. So he kept this thing on life support. And then through just the blessing of the divine hand, I got to meet former Texas Governor Rick Perry, first time in June of 23 in Denver, Colorado. He was a supporter of the Kentucky Project after every... It was terminated. He expressed his great consternation and regret, and we stayed in touch. Some stakeholders reached out to me in the state of Texas in September of 24 and said,

hey, Texas previously funded a psilocybin project at Baylor Medical School with $2 million in its 22 session. We've got a $20 billion surplus. What do you think our next frontier should be? What happens when you have an efficiently run state? Yeah, that's exactly right. I said, well, I think I'm a man. have an idea for you. I think Texas needs to finish the job that was begun in Kentucky.

So I reached out to Governor Perry and he said, you know, I've kind of stayed out of sight and out of the way. But if you think you're going to come down here and try and do this, come in. And I said, all right. So he and I partnered up and he has a friend who happens to be a friend of Mr. Rogans. And it was through Governor Perry that we had the opportunity to go on there. It was a fabulous time. And the only way that I can judge feedback is, And within the course of the interview, he really didn't say much. And I was afraid that I was boring him to death. And when it was over and the cameras were off and the mics were turned down,

he said, gentlemen, that was amazing. Thank you so much for coming in and having this discussion with me. So I took him at face value that he found the content to be satisfactory. I've never been on social media and what I have. I have some very benevolent volunteers who are willing to help me overcome. my total technological ineptitude to make sure that it runs right. They would occasionally send me screenshots of some of the comments that were made, and the only thing that I can say to those who were so kind and generous is thank you

for all the kindnesses that you offered for me and what you heard me say, and I'll do my best to not disappoint you with who I know I can be at times. I was served the clips of you talking, and I didn't know whose podcast it was. I just saw the clips and I was like, holy fuck, this guy is eloquent. I was like, this guy is so well spoken. And I sent it to you via DM and text and I was like, this guy knows how to be on a mic. I was like, this is amazing.

And I sent it to my friend Weston and everyone. And then at the end, Rogan came in and I saw that it was him. I could see why he would be quiet because he was letting you have the stage. Well, I mean, normally we're very chatty ourselves. But I think that as our viewers and listeners know, and, you know, if they're probably excited that I didn't interrupt as much as I usually do. But I think the message that you are providing to people is an important message and an awareness on something that we as a population should be paying way more attention to. Because it is clear that we are facing a real issue, not only in this country, but in the world with these substances. And so many people suffer from it.

And I kept saying during this episode, we all know people that are touched by these afflictions. And many times they don't know what to do or where to turn to. And it feels like this downward spiral. Families are affected. Friends are affected. The economy is affected. People are dying to degrees that you've mentioned. And I think if you have a platform of this size that could be used for good to get this message out there, like it's, it's an important thing to do just to provide the general awareness so that when you who are leading these conversations and having these discussions with people and

power, they, those people can also kind of feel the pressure that it's not just coming from one guy. There's a lot of people that want this issue to either be helped or resolved or the options to be provided so that we have alternative to something that's clearly not leading us down the right path. Well, and you kind of hit the two-prongued approach. You want to first illuminate and then motivate the masses because there's two ways, three ways, that you win political conflicts in this or any other society. One is you have a ton of money.

The other is you have a ton of people, and people will always beat the money when they are properly educated and motivated to pursue a unified goal. And then the other is when you combine people and the money, and that is one that is unbeatable by any measure. Thank God, I thought you were going to ask me to get my checkbook out. No. Your platform and the ability to illuminate is

a fabulous avenue through which you build mass movement motivation. Brian, before you go, what gives you hope in all of this? Well, what gives me hope is what I perceive to be the wisdom of the masses. Based on my individual experiences now haven't had these discussions with thousands of people in group settings and individually, what is clear is that there are, is starvation for significance in American society. Just as I had that terror experience in that first I began journey where I questioned the very existential point of life

that is where we are collectively. I think we've got a lot of people looking around, looking in the mirror, looking outside their windows, saying, what's the point about this? Why am I here? Am I significant in any way? Is there any point to all of this? And the answer to that question is yes.

It is my humble belief that at the heart of addiction and trauma is profound spiritual affliction. Plant medicine is not a cure for anything. What it is is the very best beginning that you can give an individual who seeks a new perspective on life in which they can be affirmed in their human divinity. and when you know that this life is preparatory for the next, it gives you a whole different perspective with which to engage this side of eternity. This is not just about addiction, it's an awakening. I think it's amazing. Where can everyone find you, support what you're doing?

Talk to your social media team because you're not on social media. Where can they come and say hi? Well, I have an account on X and that is at W. Brian Hubbard. And I think there's a little W underscore Brian underscore Hubbard. We're going to find it and link it in the show notes. Thank you very much. There's an X account. There's an Instagram account.

There's a website that's just my name, W. Brianhubberd.com. So anybody who wants to send an email or get on social media, I'd love to hear about you and from you. Come back anytime. Thank you for doing the show. Thank you for your hospitality. Really admire and respect what you're doing and wish you best of luck. If we can ever be helpful in anything, please reach out.

Let's go, Texas. we've got down to the last day in the legislative session, and hopefully we can have a postscript on whether we met the mark or not down here when we're done. Great accent, too. I love it. Thank you all so much for your hospitality to make. Thank you.