The Boyscast with Ryan Long - James Altucher on The Boyscast

Episode Date: June 19, 2020

James Altucher. He is a Comedian, Podcaster, Best Selling Author, Founder of tons of Companies, Entrepreneur, and all around badass dude. I've been a Fan of James for a while. He talks about Comedy, Corona, Riots, offers real solutions, tells you not to pay your credit cards, talks about how rules are for pussies, and how to skip steps at life. @altucher Check out 'The James Altucher Show'  Subscribe to my Patreon - patreon.com/theboyscast  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

And you can tell our friends, and they can have my things when we're dead. But we gonna live forever. But we gonna live forever. And you can tell our friends. Welcome to the BoyzCast with Ryan Long coming at you from another viral video. Go check that out if you haven't. How to sell protest footage to CNN and Fox News. We're at like 500,000 views right now.

So, today on the podcast, we have one of my favorite people in the world, James Altucher. He's probably one of the most intelligent, critical thinkers in the world right now. You know, he's got an interesting, crazy story. He made, he made all this money, he made millions of dollars, then he lost it all. Then he made a million dollars again, then lost it all. And then now he's, he figured out how to keep it. So he's got this crazy story. He's got a huge podcast that I listen to. He's the author of Choose Yourself, which changed the way that a lot of people think,

including me when I was a younger person. So on this podcast, we kind of go through everything that's happening in the world. And he has actual practical solutions for things that people should do right now. We talk about life, how to think about your life, how to make money.

We talk a lot about comedy and how it relates to being great at sales and relationships, all that sort of stuff. And I don't love dissecting comedy that much. You know, there's a lot of comics that have podcasts where all they talk about comedy, and I've definitely decided I'm not going to be one of those. But he has such an interesting perspective and the way he kind of dissects stuff that I thought it was pretty interesting to hear his way of breaking down everything from like the ideas to the concepts and all that sort of stuff. Probably a little different from some of the other boys' casts and a little longer.

We talked for like two and a half hours and I didn't edit any of it. The one thing is his mic wasn't on for properly for the first literally, I think it's 20 seconds or something like that. And then it gets, so if it sounds a little weird at first, that gets figured right the fuck out right time quick. So without further ado, this is the great James Altucher. So where are you right now? Are you in Toronto or New York?

No, I'm in New York. I never went back, but I heard you took off. Yeah, I just took off. It was like a week ago. You know what? I really hated all the people who like, you know, oh, I'm a real New Yorker. And then they went to like East Hampton and, you know, I'm a real New Yorker. And then they went to like East Hampton and

you know, just disappeared from New York. I stayed in New York the whole time and I just left a week ago. Yeah, you just took off the last minute. They were like, oh, we don't want to get it. You're not going to get it. Like look at every country in the world. When would you have gotten it? Like

nobody was making any sense throughout this entire thing, but nobody was listening to me either. So whatever. Hey, I was listening to you. Hey, let me, I'll give you, I was at your club the other day too. And by the way, the first time back on stage after three months, I was like, man, I'm going to suck. And after 10 seconds, I was like, no, I'm fine. So it actually was fine. You know, I, I did, they did an outdoor show two weeks earlier and I did that.

The police shut us down, but after i performed and i was really scared and everybody was scared like even aaron berg brian scott that was the one with berg right i heard he didn't get to perform he didn't get to perform brian didn't get to perform but then um but i performed and it was a different style even it was like i i had a whole set list ready and i just then i forgot it all as soon as i got on stage but it was just like the whole situation was just funny like we're all sitting out here in the street yeah kind of like i just started like just noticing all the things that were ridiculous and all the things that were ridiculous in the past three months in my life and just started talking about it and people appreciated that uh although you know like you

you're you know like your stuff is just so tight and clever that yeah i'm curious if you veer away from that how are you how do you do thanks man i mean listen you know you're i'm like a huge fan of yours so when i when you messaged me i was like you know the chick i'm talking to i'm like yo check it out fucking james thinks i'm cool yeah but um no you know, the chick I'm talking to, I'm like, yo, check it out. Fucking James thinks I'm cool. Yeah. But, um, no, you know what? It was one of the things that I noticed the most is when I got on stage. Cause at the beginning, you're, you're, you know, even on the internet, I felt like, you know, everything seems so tense and you're like, can I joke about this? And immediately out of the gate, I was kind of like, you know, I'm tired.

Cause I just finished up protesting for the police and all this stuff. I even said, I go, listen, I, you know, I was saying some pretty aggressive stuff and everyone, it just, it was fine because it's in the context of comedy. What was I saying? I had a pretty good one that I was saying that, you know, a lot of black people have been saying that white people will never experience what it's like to have to see the police and be afraid of them. And I was like, you know, and we have our differences.

Like white people, black people will never experience what it's like to see black people and be afraid. Oh my God, that is perfect. And that's perfectly your style where you bring it like slightly over the edge where people are like, am I allowed to laugh about this? Like, am I going to get canceled if I laugh about this? And, and then they do, cause you pull it back and it's a tiny bit true. It's,'s you know it's kind of that thing where it's like you're true enough to let one side have the relief of like okay as long as someone said it then fine it's it's that's kind of the problem with everyone arguing no one ever you know can give a little bit on the other side and if you're like listen obviously it's like

there's a bit of the other way and then all of a sudden people like okay as long as you admitted that now i'm willing to negotiate everything you know? Well, but let's think about that one. I mean, this is almost good stuff for a podcast. Let's just think about that one for a second. Like what would have been, and there's various nuances in your joke, but what would have been in just the language itself, what would have been a little too much, do you think, where you wouldn't have been able to pull it back? Just what, what's like one millimeter too much. I think a lot of the too much comes in how you say it and your tonality and all this stuff,

right? Because the underlying factor is that I understand that there's like a real problem here, but you need to understand that also it's not, you're not the only one in the whole universe with problems. So even though they might be more, Hey, listen, this, this problem might be a one out of 10 and this problem might be an 11 out of 10, but you still have to acknowledge that there's a one out of 10 for it to exist for, for us to agree to that.

Like, let's talk about the solve the 11 out of 10 problem. Right. Cause you, cause you're right. Cause it is a truth. And I think, I feel like in this environment, you know, for instance, if you say all lives matter, that's a truth also, but you're not allowed to say that. Like that's already been struck from the vocabulary.

Well, one of the things I was arguing about is you're allowed to say trans lives matter. And I go, well, that's your all lives matter. You putting your causes in there. Yeah. But, but like when you, when you say it the way you said it though, like that's a real truth. Like if I was saying this to my kids the other day, cause they don't know that Harlem is now a safe area. Like 25 years ago, if I was hanging out on the 148th street in St. Nick and like the

sun went down, I was a dead man. Like I was legitimately scared. And that's like just an honest truth and story. And you, you kind of, uh, And you have to pretend that doesn't exist. Right. And, and, but you were able to say it. And like you said, it's, it's tonality too, because part of your persona on stage is you have your,

your voice is slightly, um, higher pitched higher pitched and like even just the way you just said it just now just slightly more than usual so that um you you're you're the um like the clueless narrator a little bit right you're an idiot yeah like you think you're able to say that and because your voice is slightly higher pitched it's not like you're saying you know they should realize that we're fucking scared of them. Like, you're not saying that. You're saying, you know, just like, they'll never know.

Like, you're like, you're allowed to pass as clueless. Yeah. And I think that, you know, I was talking to Chris DiStefano about storytelling in comedy, and he said one of the things that's really important is the level of charm brought to the stage. And that's what you're bringing with that,

is that he said that, but maybe it's funny because it's true because I feel it too, but he's a little clueless. I like his style. And there's no logic flaws, and there's not really any logic flaws. It's just a matter clueless like he's you know i i like his style he's eating that and then he and there's no logic flaws and there's not really any logic flaws it's just a matter of priorities right you know this is again like to go back to things that i got from you i think even if you look at what's going on with the riots a lot of it is that people can't agree that there's a problem on the other side like you know for example if you look at when we talk you know a lot of times when people talk about writing comedy some people be like I only write on stage or I only write on paper.

And it's like, you can do both. They want to make a binary thing of it. And you're like, yeah, no, there's a lot of problems. So I thought, actually, you know, let me give you just the intro quickly, because I do want to say, you know, I do a little bit of an intro before this. But, you know, I just want to say James Altster has written like 20 books. He's a bestselling author. He's created 20 plus companies. He's a hedge fund manager.

You're one of the pioneers of algorithmic trading, you know, contributor to a million places. And then you kind of rode that boom and started this successful podcast. I always describe you as someone that's like the perfect amount of cynical, but still like optimistic and like a, right. And then like a way that I appreciate. And you know what? So just to backtrack a tiny little bit, the way that I thought that when, cause I, people like you and Tim Ferriss and all those guys that I thought sort of changed the game. And then the smart ones of you guys sort of transitioned into, you know, this, the podcasting, and then you've kind of transitioned into the next thing after that, in my opinion. But like why I thought that you were the one where me and my friends were always like, a lot of those podcasts are unlistenable, but James isn't, is a lot of them start to be performative a little bit where, and you'd be listening and you're like, you're listening to a podcast on a better in your life.

And you're like, well, I don't want to take a fucking ice bath every morning. Yeah. It's outrageous. And you're like, well, I don't want to take a fucking ice bath every morning. Yeah. It's outrageous. Well, that's just it is that I kind of accidentally veered into the self-help arena when what I was really interested in was being creative and telling my story and writing well. And I realized my story that was part of the appeal was that my story was also people related to it and it was helping people.

But I didn't want to be a self-help guy. I didn't want to say like, Oh, I've done this research and like taking in an ice bath every day is the, you know, that you need to drink every morning. Yeah. Like, you know, life's pretty hard and every time if you get too specific about your recommended ideal life, no one's gonna follow it. Like, it's just gonna be stupid. That's why your life was always cool. Because you're always like, doing sort of cool. I think you've said some version of that, you know, maybe you would have been more successful if you just stuck to one thing. But to me, that was the appeal to you is you kind of, you weren't getting boxed into when it felt stale to you. Oh yeah.

I mean, just look at comedy, right? So if you do, let's say you do three comedy shows a week and that's, that's a good five hours per 15 minute appearance, right? Because you prepare for three hours before, then you have to go there, you have to wait, you do your thing and then you unwind. That's like five, six hours. So let's just say five, So that's 15 hours a week. And plus, maybe during the day, there's like soft preparation, like I'm watching comedy, I'm thinking about it, whatever. So let's just say it's 15

hours a week. That's, you know, whatever, 750 hours a year. That's a lot of time, like that's enough time to get rich. And instead of doing that, I was telling stupid jokes in front of a lot of time. Like that's enough time to get rich. And instead of doing that, I was telling stupid jokes in front of a room of 12 tourists from Sweden. And it's the guy that sold companies for millions of dollars, multiple times running hedge fund, hedge funds. And then, yeah, you're like, you know, at your age, you're like, you know what, I'm going to buy it. I'm going to fucking buy a club and start doing comedy.

And you're like, man, this guy fucking rules. And it didn't, you know what the best part was? It didn't feel like you were doing this just so you could tell the story to add to your like self-help thing. It was like, no, I wanted to do this. Right. No. And I think when people do things for the story, that's usually the worst reason to

do things like stories should happen. But it's not like I wake up in the morning and I think, you know what? I'm going to go collect people's trash today and figure out what to do with it. Like that might be a story right now, but it's a pretty dumb story. But like when you do something that you're passionate about, there's so many layers of story there that, you know, and look, I was just like you. I'm passionate about comedy and I only have one life. So if I don't do stand up comedy in this lifetime, when am I going to do it? And look, just like you, I'm passionate about comedy and I only have one life. So if I don't do stand-up comedy in this lifetime, when am I going to do it?

Right. If I start another business, look at all these billionaires. Look at Jeff Bezos. He's going to die with $100 billion in the bank. So what was the point of... Now, I could see for him what the point is. It's just he loves running Amazon. But other than that, what would be the point of making the other $100 billion? just, he loves running Amazon. But like, other than that, like, what would be the point of making the other a hundred billion? Like, I don't really enjoy business.

So what would be the point of making more money if I'm not really what I'm doing to make it? So, you know, everybody can say, Oh, the goal is make as much money as possible. Just, you could just give it away to charity then. But I don't know. I, what about making people laugh? There's some value in that and learning a new skill and doing something you love doing. And what does your day look like? You know, and that's an, yeah, like exactly. Like, you know, if I have to like, if I have to like, for instance, fire people,

or if I have to like deal with a legal issue or deal with like, Oh, the supplies didn't arrive or the programmer didn't get something done on time. That just sucks. Now, bombing and comedy sucks also. And every time you bomb, you feel like, oh, I'm never gonna do this again.

But of course, a few hours later, I can't wait to get back on stage and I've got to improve it now. So I don't know, it's just fun. Like even now, like after this pandemic, where we haven't You and I both have done comedy once in three months Right

But I'm excited to do more Or at least take those skills And apply it to something else Like who knows Yeah how you got into doing comedy was I was talking to Donnie too and he was telling me this story Like the fucking rules Basically James he goes He said I'm sure that I'm like mixing up some part of the details,

but essentially you were doing a podcast there and you're looking at the club and you're like asking him questions about it. And you're like, Hey, can I buy in or whatever? And he just like, he said, he gave you like an evaluation. And then the next day you just came with a check for it. And you didn't even, uh, you didn't even really negotiate. And I was like, that fucking rules. with a check for it and you didn't even uh you didn't even really negotiate and i was like that fucking rules yeah no i didn't i first off i remember one time on my podcast ken langone the founder of home depot came on my podcast and he's like you own part of this place and i said yeah and then suddenly you see the difference between like a hardcore stone cold killer of business like he started home depot he's worth, I don't know,

$10 billion, whatever. He just like, he suddenly started like squinting and he's like, well, how much does the, how much does the alcohol cost? How much do you pay the waiters? How much he just loves it. Yeah. And, and like I said to him, you know, I actually have zero clue on any of the answers of your questions. And I even heard later, he kind of said to somebody, I don't know if this person was telling me the truth, but somebody told me, you know, Ken didn't really think very highly of you. Really? Yeah.

And I think, I don't know if that person was just trying to make me feel bad or what, because I've written to Ken, he's written back, whatever. But I can understand why he, I didn't didn't really know i don't really like business and right and i have some skills and talent at it but i really dislike it and and you sound like your brilliance is in creating and stuff like that and then you've been able to tell people what that is you also said you kind of like you don't believe in like the pay your dues thing, which I kind of have always believed that too. Like people like to make these arbitrary things of like, oh, you have to do this. And you were kind of like, no, if I want to do comedy, I'll buy a comedy club and then put myself up there because I have the resources. You're like,

well, you need to do this. You're like, well, I would have to do that if I didn't have these resources that could replace those. So I can skip that whole thing. Like, I remember the first time I was gonna do an hour at the comedy club, I think this was in 2016. And- Third set. Yeah. Really pushing it. It might have been.

It might have been like after just doing it a few months. And I was going up within like 30 seconds. Like they were about to announce me. You know, Ashley was the MC and she was about to announce me and Dante comes up to me and says, and I don't mind, I love Dante, I love this humor. I don't mind if I mentioned him directly. I actually write the story in my next book,

but Dante comes up to me like 30 seconds to go, I'm going on stage and Dante Dante's like, you know, don't think you can skip the line. Like you got to do this for like a long time. You got to like, you know, wait in line and pay your dues. And then they're like, and here's James Altucher. And I had to go right up after he's telling me that.

And I'm like, man, it's just not true. Do you know why comics think that? It's because, this is one of my theory, but comedy more than any other skill, not any other skill, but most skills, the competence level, it takes longer to be competent. So to be in a band, to be good enough that you could be famous, you could probably do that.

Like there's bands that are like 14 that were writing songs. It's about writing the songs, right? But to get to the point where you're in the game and could do that hour most people can't reach that level so they want a special badge that they're in that club right i think that's exactly it that's why people are past you know oh yeah you know like if you look at what makes up a cult like a cult has um kind of their own lingo so oh your past or the they love that shit yeah and and um and then you know and then there's kind of um uh levels so okay you graduate from open mic to being passed at the shitty clubs to being you know passed at the better clubs to being able to be a headliner you know you you graduate from mc to feature to headliner

then you could sell out uh theaters and then you sell out stadiums or then you have a netflix special so there's like hierarchy and then there's uh usually charismatic leaders in a cult so of course comedy has its charismatic leaders that are the top comedians of all time and you know there's other there's arcane rituals which i don't know i haven't thought about that part through but i imagine there's some arcane rituals of comedy and uh i don't know there's a i mean you can say the fucking writing on your notepad as opposed to a computer is an arcane ritual that people like to yeah and they bring up like yeah they bring up their like you know crumpled up paper on stage and they, you know, read off.

I mean, even just the writing on your notepad. I go, listen, for me, switching from writing on notepads to like using Evernote and having a system of organization in this, it's like my productivity is, you know, tenfolded or whatever. And you have people to be like, well, I just write better on this. It's like, yeah, we'll change that because this is better. write better on this it's like yeah we'll change that because this is better yeah yeah and then um you know and what there's definitely other like oh you have like uh sacred texts so are there sacred texts of comedy i don't know yeah definitely dave chapelle i've always said uh no matter what you think of him it's don't speak the lord's name in vain so there's certain people that no matter what you think if you say something bad about daveappelle, it's like, it's blasphemous, you know? Right. So his albums are sacred text. Or George Carlin or Richard Pryor, like going back.

And then also sacred texts, like you have to watch all of Dave Chappelle's specials. And by the way, I have like, they're great. But I just had to say that maybe because I didn't want people to banish me from the cult. So, and that's the other thing too, is that you get, the higher you get, you could get banished, you know, like how Elijah Muhammad banished, you know, Malcolm X from the, the black Muslims.

Once there was a disagreement between them, you get banished from the cult, the higher you get, like, look, you know, lots of comedians, the higher you are, the easier it is to get canceled or people to question every word. Jimmy Fallon was almost banished for something he did 20 years ago on Saturday night live where they had a team of writers and yeah, they almost had an excommunicated. And then if you're, you know, if, if you like, uh, if you leave the cult to start your own,

like a, like Gerard Carmichichael when he started his sitcom maybe a little too early for some other comedians to be happy with it he's like not as liked among some of the top comedians because he left too early to go be a sitcom star so you know this is there's elements of of cult in the comedy world and you know there's there's yeah you kind of have to deal with that as you're rising up people don't realize that what do you think of you know there's there's yeah you kind of have to deal with that as you're rising up people don't realize that what do you think of you know because you know this is one thing that kind of relates if you're talking about um the the like skipping the line versus failure because i know you kind of have that the attitude that you know your main story is that you kind of like

made millions of dollars and lost it and made a million dollars and lost it really good at making millions of dollars. Not so good at keeping it probably better at keeping it now, but a little bit better, but, but really good at making it like whenever I want, but then your instincts are great. Because your instincts are great. Yeah. Yeah. Like I have a sense of like, what's, I always seem to have a sense of what's the trend and maybe I'm not the first one on the trend, but I'm usually like the second or third. That's what I, that's what I think of you. And when I see, so when you see someone like Peter Thiel, he kind of has the other attitude on, I'm sure you agree with him on lots of stuff,

but like the other attitude where he says failure is overrated. Right. And I'm like, there's obviously a cost benefit where, you know, you kind of take, take hits on your confidence. Sometimes that might be needed for some things. But the failure builds your instincts, I always think. Yeah, or failure gives you – Yeah, what are your thoughts on that? I think Peter Thiel's right that, you know, best to just succeed the first time out and then to succeed again and again. And Peter Thiel did that.

He succeeded with PayPal. Then he succeeded with his investment in Facebook. Then he succeeded as a hedge fund manager. Now he's succeeding with Palantir and tons of other businesses. Same with Elon Musk. I don't think he's had like a failure. And, you know, but for them, they love it. Like they love what they, they love business.

They love changing the world. Like Peter Thiel just didn't just have a vision of, oh, this is how I can make money. Peter Thiel had a vision of, you know, all of the world's transactions could be done through the internet. And so I'm going to create that vision. And so he's right. Like if he failed at that, there would have been something critically wrong. Whereas me, I loved the internet, but I loved it as an entertainment medium. Well, in a lot of ways though, if you want to think so kind of what I think my theory is a little bit is that that may be the case in certain things, but in terms of art and culture where you probably would have, in my opinion, made a bigger dent in him in a lot of ways. It's also like culture kind of needs you to make those failures in order to understand where, like if you're a car and if you don't know where the, if you're just driving down the center of the road, you don't know where the bumpers are, right?

Imagine you couldn't see them. They are invisible. You need to fail to understand where the guides are. So it's like with someone like you, it's like that's probably one of the reasons why you have such a cultural impact in a lot of ways, because you've understood where the, where, what, what both of those look like. Right. But I'll, I'll correct the word failure though. So failure might be you hit a bumper and then you accelerate and you just go right over it and you

crash and die. So that would be a failure. But just like, hmm, what happens if I move over six inches more? Oh, there was a little bit of a jolt. I hit a bumper. Okay. I'm back in the middle. So I'm going to distinguish between failure and an experiment. It's almost like you can just, you get to decide what failure is. And that's a big part of it. Cause one, and that's what keeps people in the wrong thing. So many times it's cause you're like, you know, I was in a band forever and I kind of, I wanted to switch, but it's like, you don't want to be like a failed musician, but you don't, you know, no one would think of you as like a failed hedge fund manager. You get to decide your own story. And it's a lot of times it, of times it gets decided for you, but you need to change your brain to not look

at it as failures. And I was, yeah. And look, I'll hit it from a different angle. So you've heard of the 10,000 hour rule, right? Where if you do something for 10,000 hours, then you could say you're one of the, and 10,000 hours of what's called deliberate practice, you could say you're one of the best in the world at something. So I didn't want to spend 10,000 hours practicing comedy.

And so I even wrote to the guy who developed that role. It was a professor down in Florida named Anders Ericsson. What's the book that popularized it that's tipping? Outliers by Malcolm Gladwell. Yeah, and then Anders Ericsson didn't want to have- He sort of stole your haircut a little bit. Yeah, Malcolm Gladwell. People sometimes and then Anders Ericsson didn't want to have – He sort of stole your haircut a little bit. Yeah, Malcolm Gladwell. People sometimes come up to me in the street and say, hey, I loved Outliers.

And I'm like, oh, I'm not Malcolm Gladwell, but thanks. And then I've even written to Malcolm Gladwell. He's never written back to me. He's like the only guy in that circle I don't know. But, yeah, I don't know why. But I even wrote to Anders Ericsson, the professor who developed the rule. And I said, well, how would you think about this?

Because I've known him for a while. In fact, in the 90s, I was even part of some of the initial experiments about the 10,000 hour rule when it came to, they studied a lot on chess players. And so I knew him for a long time and I was happy to see Malcolm Gladwell popularized him. But then I was thinking to myself, you know, there's gotta be something better than 10,000 hours because maybe I could

borrow hours from writing and public speaking. Make it a Venn diagram. Yeah. But that didn't quite seem to be working somehow. And, but then I realized, you know what? The 10,000 hour rule is kind of for losers. And what I mean is- I agree. Yeah, because- I mean, I'm also agreeing after I've heard you say this

and agreed then, but- No, but you're a good example. Like, think about it. When you first moved to New York, I remember you went up at Stand Up New York and I was like, wow, this guy's funny. And this is seriously what I said. And I said it to somebody at the club

and we got to get him booked on more. And, you know, the person just sort of nodded and like, yeah, yeah. And there's all you know, there's a lot a lot of comedians. And but then you did what I call you. Here's where I'm going to veer into the word experiment again. So I like what I call the 10,000 experiment rule. You did an experiment. You said, well, how about I take my comedy clips and put them on TikTok? And if you go on any popular social media platform and get over 100,000 followers, and now you have over 250,000 followers on TikTok, people are going to say, oh, you're that guy. Can you perform at my comedy club? So I bet you noticed that once you got 250,000 followers on TikTok, a lot more people said, Hey, can you come on my podcast?

Can you go on, on, on, on stage? And you can headline if you want. And I bet you noticed that. So you did this experiment and it worked. And that experiment was actually pretty hard with when I first went there. So I kind of like, when I came here, I was pretty business. I showed up to John and I was like, Hey, you know, I just moved here, blah, blah, this me. And he's like, and I kind of had the attitude of like, just, just listen, give me a, put me on stage. Trust me. You know what I mean?

And then he was like, all right, if you can get me some vouchers, like, we'll think about giving you check spots or whatever, like whatever it is. Right. Then the next day I showed up and I said, here's five vouchers from all these people. And he goes, what do you want me to do? Do you want me to do this? And he was like, uh, I don't know. Like, I wasn't really expecting this to happen so quick.

You know what I mean? It's one of those. And then I, and then he's like, okay, we'll figure something out. Then I came back the next day. And then the next day and then someone didn't show up and he goes, all right, he goes, can you go do 10 minutes right now? And I just went up into 10 minutes and then he'd like literally after he was like, all right, I'll book you in the rotation. And then like within a week, he was like, all right, now you can headline or whatever. Yeah.

And then you, and then you met and then also you talking to him. And then now it's like, yeah, I'm kind of like right in the mix there. Yeah. And, and, and the thing is, it's all so, so for instance, when I first started doing standup, I figured, okay, I'm not going to put in 10,000 hours. I just don't have that time. And so I need to experiment though. So I would construct what I would call very specific experiments.

An experiment has little downside, but enormous upside, should cost no money or little or no money. And even if the experiment, quote unquote, fails, you still can learn a huge amount from it. And if it succeeds, it's amazing. So I did one experiment, for instance, where I would go on subways. And while, you know, between stops, I would do stand up on the subway. Come on. No, I'm serious. This like multi this multimillionaire, like people like James Aldrich or lost it. Yeah. Yeah. Well, and then I videotaped it so I could watch the video. But people were like looking at me like obviously it was not a stand up comedy crowd.

Like they were not there to hear me tell jokes. They were tired from the day and who's this guy talking to them and uh you know i would say stuff like hey i ordered an uber pool but they sent me this subway car am i in the right place like it's just people would sometimes chuckle but most people just didn't like me and you had to it was very much like a test by fire, but it was an experiment to kind of tighten up my one-liners and my likability as much as possible. And, you know, I don't know, you know, it's sort of, it's sort of failed because, you know, of course nobody's going to like me really, but it's sort of worked because that I think the more experiments you do, the faster you could skip those hours.

A hundred percent. Yeah. Like when you got 250,000 followers on Tik TOK, you could just show up like in Denver now. And they're like, who are you? And you can look, I'm the 250,000 followers and Tik TOK guy. And they're like, Oh, okay. Go right up. So, so the more experiments you do, you don't know which ones are going to fail, which ones are going to succeed, but even the failures, you're going to learn a lot or they're going to be a story to tell. And the successes are going to be, oh, my gosh, I just saw you on TikTok.

Do you want a TV show? Like that would be like the extreme of success from that. No, you messed it up. I'm like you. I had a TV show and now I'm on TikTok. You both went backwards on that. Okay, but let me ask you a question. How many people watched your TV show versus how many people have seen you on TikTok. I did that. Well. You both went backwards on that. Okay, but let me ask you a question. How many people watched your TV show versus how many people have seen you on TikTok?

Yeah, exactly. So probably, I mean, what's her name? Very true. Like, a billion people a day see her on TikTok. Yeah. And she can't do a TV show where it has more than a couple thousand people. Like, most people don't realize how few people watch TV. Like, if you watch a TV show on the discovery channel,

there's like 3000 people watching it. Like it's pathetic. So, but yeah, yeah. Like if you are like, I've, I've done a Tik TOK videos over a million views and that's a million people that have watched it. That'd be no matter what TV show I had on, unless it was like an 8 PM spot on NBC, I'm not going to get a million people to watch something. You know, that's a perfect example of one of the main things that I did that when I look back at my life of where I screwed up because I didn't want to look like a failure

was I was obsessed with having a TV show. Like I was really into Sacha Baron Cohen and Tom Cruise. I was obsessed with it. So it was one of those things where I was like, this is happening no matter what. So eventually I was doing like a cable access show and then I basically funded my own money. I put it in there, made the show.

I showed up. Like I found out where all the television networks were going to be. I found out where all the parties were going to be. Found out the people. Got my friends introduced. Like pulled everything. I made the people like I would send like cakes to their offices with the DVDs in. And I did all this crazy stuff.

Just this wild stuff, just this wild stuff. Right. And then eventually, um, and then eventually did it. But I, while this was happening, TV died two years ago. And it was like, I was so what if I, if I wasn't so, um, ingrained into what success looked like, I would have, you know, uh, pivoted from doing that two years before, but it was like, I'd already decided what that success looked like and I wasn't able to change it. If that makes sense. Yeah. Because look, look, look at the comedy club scene. If you do a TV show, what does the MC say when,

when he or she introduces you here's Ryan long, you've seen him on, you know, America's got talent or you've seen him on, uh, you know, X factor or whatever you've seen him on Stephen Colbert. So your, the tv credits are like held up as this accomplishment right in fact it means nothing yeah it means kind of means even less than nothing like you get to the you get to the point where you almost don't want them to define your tv credits like because you want the audience to sort of like you without that that crime i know and they're like who the fuck is this

guy yeah like because then if you have a tv credit like oh he was on letterman what what the hell like the amount of times i remember noticing this in especially with who the media cares about i remember when i i remember noticing this when i was like 19 when i was in like this punk band and we had bands that were on the radio every day and they were like opening for our openers and you're like oh this thing's a scam but you'd see people here that have all these tv credits and then you go on stage with them you're like this person sucks am i am i am i going am i taking crazy pills here no i was amazed when i started when i started you know of course you know buying into stand-up new york i started watching a lot of the comedians and every now and then I would think, huh, what's going on with this comedian? I'm not really enjoying this. Like

I thought I would be. And then I would look into their background. They've been doing it for 19 years. They've been on all these TV shows and I'm not putting anyone down. Like everyone's got their skills and their updates in there and their bad days. But I was thinking to my, and then, and then I would go up and, you you know in some cases kill and yeah i would think like what i didn't do it for 19 years uh but i've had other benefits and i've had other experiences so the tv thing i didn't really you understand at a skill yeah that's the thing is like if you learn how to just get good if you learn the meta skill of getting good at a skill that passes by any credits it's like my daughter was telling me you know she

wants to be a writer but she's 18 years old and so she gets into this writing program and she's like I'm gonna get very good connections from this writing program and I said to her connections are worthless like you've got to be a good writer that's what you want to be not just someone who's connected if you're if you're a good writer you That's what you want to be. Not just someone who's connected. If you're, if you're a good writer, you're going to be read. Like that's the fact. And you know, it was actually at the exact point I had written like five or six books and I don't know the last book or two prior to that, this is like in 2010, 2011, the prior two books didn't sell so well. So no publisher was returning my call all of a sudden because that's how loyal every single industry is. And so I said, okay, screw it. I don't have to write in that

style anymore. I was writing about finance. I'm just going to write my story and write what I think is important and write these crazy stories about myself. And I'm going to write. And I started reading my favorite writers and being more inspired by them in terms of my writing style. And then suddenly my audience 10 X, but publishers didn't know that. So I had to self publish my next book, which was called choose yourself. It sold over a million copies. And suddenly then every publisher's calling. That was the big one. Yeah. Yeah. And I'm like, well, why should I do anything now with the publisher? I did it myself. I have my own audience. Oh, yeah. I know you weren't involved.

Yeah. Right. And so it's the same thing. Like skill is really the driving force, not even sales, not anything else other than skill. If you have skill and you stay with it and you keep improving, that's what I noticed was the important. So with, with comedy, I never assumed, and I still don't assume that I'm good. Like comedy is like such an amazingly difficult skill. Like you're always kind of a student of it. And, but I just keep, I just kept focusing on just trying to get better. And what experiments can I do with other things? Like when you were doing, cause I know you do speeches and talks for absorbent amounts of money. I'm sure when, uh, when you do those, are you better at them now? Did that work? Oh my God. Yeah. So, so public speaking, I realized I thought public speaking was going to help me with comedy. It did not at all. It was like zero, but, but you almost have to, it's almost gives you bad habits to some extent, probably. Yeah. Because if you go to

my brain a little bit when i switch to comedy yeah like like when you do public speaking like most public speakers speak in roughly a monotone and if you can get like two laughs in in an hour you're a huge you're the funniest public i mean i knew this before you ever did comedy you were the funniest guy out of all that whole squad yeah and and and uh thank you i appreciate that and you just have that like you know you were that like funny kind of you've got that jew Jewish funny sense of humor that, you know, I could, you could, you're just like with funny without knowing it, your brain just kind of operates in that realm already. And also, cause I'm not taking, I don't take it seriously. Like

who, like they're all, when you go to, when you give a talk, they don't really want to hear, they might want to hear for a few seconds, the theme of what your talk is but they really want to be entertained but but most public before lunch and and and so but when i was doing comedy even for just a few months by the way i wasn't like doing comedy for years at that point and then i had to give a talk again it was like night and day i was was 10 times better at, if you can measure these things, I felt like I was 10 times better at public speaking because suddenly you realize the, you have all the skills. Yeah. You have this presence, you have stage presence, you know how to do crowd work. You know what everybody in the crowd is thinking. Like,

you know, who hates you and who likes you, you know, what the actual, um, you know what the, like when you said the, how far you can push it, like you don't have to guess. Like when you're writing, you're like, I don't know, maybe this is too much. When you're there

and you have that skill, you know, you don't really need to guess. You kind of have that instinct. Right. And you can also, sometimes when you're going too far, you can lean into it a little bit and become like the,

you know, the unreliable narrator. And then they start to appreciate that in a different way so then they think you break the tension and they think it's funny because they're not used to the unreliable narrator because most public speakers try to be very reliable and then and they're not used to crowd work they're not used to um uh you know they're not used to the kind of the the charm of a comedian they're not used to any sort of structured jokes. You know, the rule of three, they don't know that. And that's an important skill of comedy. Again, it's one you can break. I mean, I used to do the rule of three,

but now that everyone knows it, a lot of jokes, you know, the reason for the rule of three is in comedy, you set up the two things and then the third one's the punchline. So two is the minimum you can set up a pattern with. Yeah. The truth is if you've already set up a pattern in previous jokes, you can set up a pattern with one a lot of times. Yeah. You know what I mean? So instead of- Well, right. There's the callback. And so public speaking never has callbacks normally. Or here's another technique. Here's one that I started off in public speaking, brought it into comedy. But then when I brought

it back into public speaking, after I meshed it with comedy, it was like a huge skill. So I don't really see a lot of comedians do this. So sometimes I go up and do my set and I'll give people the choice. I'll say, you know, I don't know what to talk about with you guys. I'll give you three choices. I could talk about relationships. I could talk about money or I could talk about getting my dick sucked. That would be funny to say that. I'll try that next time. But I'll usually say, or I could talk about everything else in the world that I hate. And they're always going to pick the last one. So, cause that's just cognitive bias and I'll use a little bit more of my voice. So I'll push them to pick the last one but then when i brought that so that worked in comedy and when i brought that back into public speaking people were like what is going on here is he going

to just make up an entire one hour talk on what we choose and they don't know how the ways you could sort of push someone to you know like i could also just give the same talk no matter what they answer but that kind of you know but that also gives a cognitive bias where if the audience chooses the content, they feel much more obligated to engage with it. Yeah, you dare them to laugh at it. Yeah, so this worked both in public speaking and comedy, but it was a skill I had to kind of like use.

There's so much crossover. The amount of times, I mean, I've always had people being like, you know, do you consider yourself like a director a musician or um you know a comedian i'm like i do them all the exact same like literally you know if i'm making film the script writing the it's all the same to me i do it all the same way i write the sets the same way i organize that in my brain the same way like i organize you know 45 second bits the way that I used to organize songs. Like, well, let me ask you about that because, and let, let me ask you in terms of either songwriting or sets or whatever, like your humor is, is, is great because like you go in there and you're, you're innocent and then you're telling a story and then somehow by the end you've gone over the line but

in such a way because of this unreliable narrator aspect and the charm and so on it's it's a truth and it's funny and then you pull right back and you know everybody's everybody's still with you so so it's like you've got this really good twist that's not just wordplay it's it's it's it's I don't know what it's like you've got this really good twist that's not just wordplay. It's, I don't know what, it's like truth play. And it's really good. And how does that work in songwriting? Well, I think one of the big parts that I'll, I think I know what you're talking about that I can relate to songwriting.

So one of the big things that I do and that I noticed early on, which, so I noticed that decide how good you are is 80% how good you are. Cause if, if, if, if you're having a set and you need to, um, be at a hundred percent to say that, like I killed, then you will, then you're always having to take shots that are too big. Right? So however good I am at 80% good and every Joke I would sell it at like 70 80% so I'd know I'd have These like huge punchlines and then I would and then I'll get less

Laughs than they're actually deserving whereas If I really fucking drill it down this could be a Home run but I'm gonna throw them out there like They're nothing even though it's like a huge juicy Punchline and when I was writing songs It's the same way it's like have These big juicy pop hooks and then disguise Them writing songs it's the same way it's like have these big juicy pop hooks and then disguise them as like gritty punk songs so it's kind of the same way that i would do

that where you'd be like these fucking you know this band seems like they're all over the place it's this crazy thing but it's kind of like poppy almost and i i'm it's still like kind of uplifting and the way that for that was you take something that at its core is great and then mess it all up as opposed to like taking something that's messy and kind of polishing up. So it's the undersell versus the oversell. And I think a lot of that is how I do my comedy too. So it's like, I'm taking jokes. People are kind of like, why did I like that? And I'm like, because I pretended that I barely said a joke. And I said like a huge punchline. I. Yeah, that's really smart because a lot of times with a punchline, it's almost like, hey, everybody get ready in three seconds. I'm about to unleash

the punchline and then I'm going to wait for you all to laugh before I go on to the next joke. So that could be very dangerous. But I think you pulling back almost from the ledge at that last second on the punchline is part of what makes it funny. And part of what makes you able to get away with saying, hold on part of what makes you get away with saying these things that are slightly over the line. It, it, it, again, it adds to this unreliable narrator persona. Like, Hey, that was a truth. It was funny because we're all thinking about it,

but we were afraid to say it. And it's funny the way he presented it. And does he even really know what he's saying? Like there is a little bit of that. Like, does he think that it's almost like I always say that, you know, one of the things I talk a lot about is that you talk about, talk to men with your words and you talk to women with your, um, and it could go feminine, masculine, but so a lot of times I'm saying something to you know you could kind of talk to the masculine people in the room be like women are shit and then you kind of look at girls and you're like i'm just kidding and you're kind of looking at guys you're like i'm not though like you say you say no i think this but then you like kind of wink at the other people but they're like men don't see the wink right you

kind of get to do both at the same time. But what you're describing there is an important comedy technique, but doesn't, and it should be a public speaking technique or even a sales technique, but nobody really thinks of it because it's so important to comedy, but it's invisible in the other areas.

Yeah, how do you use that in sales? What would that be in sales? Well, what you're doing there is tribe building. So you're building kind of, you're in the tribe with the women, you're in the tribe with the women, you're in the tribe with the men. And so they kind of buy into the fact that you're in the tribe.

All the fellas, all the ladies. Yeah. And with sales, you can, you know, you get into a meeting and despite all the advice on sales that people write about and give you, what you're really trying to do is uh say hey we're in the same tribe of course you're gonna buy from me like you know like right if you're

if your best friend from elementary school came to you and said hey what's the book choose your tribe or was it um oh uh yeah i feel like it's a seth godin book oh yeah that's one of your guys yeah something like that yeah and uh uh finding your tribe And I've heard you talk about that a little bit Yeah James Aldrich's part two is Sell to them One, find your tribe Two, sell to them

Yeah, but even in comedy you're selling to them If they're not in your tribe They're just not going to like you And they're going to look at each other and like Oh, I can't wait until he gets off the stage They're not going to like you But if you can do it look at each other and like, Oh, I can't wait until he gets off the stage. Right. They're going to not going to like you. But in, in, if you can do it in sales or public speaking, it's like this huge benefit, but people don't even realize that because in comedy, it's so important to try build that you think about it a lot. And it's part of

the charm of doing comedy. So people forget about that. Like it's not as important in public speaking, although when you can do it it it makes it talk so much better yeah and there's also the addition of that if you don't find your tribe like when you know they're not your tribe they actually respect people respect their enemies more than they respect like people that are trying to be their allies so it's kind of like you know a lot of times women will like the guy that's like you know fuck that feminist bullshit like more than the guy that's like hey what's up so it's understand if they're not in your tribe, like don't try to pander to them

because they'll know that, like understand like, hey, we're enemies here, but like, listen, you're going to laugh at some jokes, but we don't have to, you know? Yeah, I think that's really important because, and I think pandering is almost the opposite of tribe building because you would never pander

to like your buddies from elementary school. You would never sit, call them up and say, Hey, do you guys still like me? Cause then, then they're not going to like you. They're going to be like, why is Ryan even saying that? Like, you know, but you know, think about, there's a lot of comedians who I don't want to say they insult the audience, but they're just a little gruff with the audience in the beginning. And you see a lot of great, like, look,

Dave Chappelle does that in that one special where, you know, who am I imitating? And he sort of acts stupid. And then. This is you. Yeah. He's like, I'm imitating you. And so he's kind of, it's a weird way to try build, but like by putting them on edge too, they have, he's like saying, you got to win me over also. And that's. Right. You never want to give the audience status, whether it's. It works for picking up girls. It works for, it's all of

it. Right. It's like, you know, I kind of a little bit when I moved to New York, I, I, you know, I kind of said this once or twice out loud and it sounded gross, but it is how I feel. I was like, I wasn't like auditioning to people, people's friends. I was auditioning friends, you know? And yeah. So, you know, you kind of say that and they're like, Oh, I think it sounds arrogant, but you're like, dude, I've been doing this for a long time. I moved here. I'm like, I'm not like begging to be part of anyone's group. I'm auditioning for the people that I want to spend time with for the next, like, you know, a couple of years. And so it's like just switching your mind that like, you're not, you're not, don't

beg for people's approval. Like if you like each other, it'll work out. Right. And think about it in terms of standup comedy, isn't it the same thing? Like if you like each other, it'll work out. Right. And think about it in terms of stand-up comedy. Isn't it the same thing? Like if you're begging the crowd to like you, they're going to hate you. I mean, and it's not-

And they're going to see that. Yeah. Yeah. Like it's okay. You don't have to like insult them to get them to like you, but you just have to be like, you have to kind of show them,

hey, you know, I'm not, I'm not against you, but I'm not necessarily exactly like you either. I'm just, I'm not I'm not against you But I'm not necessarily Exactly like you either I'm just I'm just

Which is fine We can all get along It's that thing Yeah Whether you're applying For like a job Whether you're You know

Trying to get Trying to make sales Whatever it is If you can switch it To like you know Somehow make them Want your approval Or at least

At the very most 50, 50, like, Hey, we're both deciding whether we like each other. Not, uh, you know, it's even when you're at the job interview, like, are we a good fit? A lot of times, a lot of times when people are asking me, you know, for jobs, it's like, I'll kind of call them with that attitude of like, yeah, let's discuss and see if like, this is a good fit as opposed to like, Hey, this is why I'm, as soon as you find yourself, like, I'm actually, I've done this. You're, you're trying to, you start trying to pitch yourself. You're like, Oh, you've already lost. What was your quote? You said that, um, if, uh, if you can't leave the table, you're not negotiating. Oh yeah. Yeah. If you're, if, um,

yeah, yeah. If you can't, if you can't walk away from a negotiation, then you're just working out the terms of your slavery. Ah, the fucking rules. And it's true. It's true. Every time I've been in that situation where I got nervous and insecure and I had to convince them. Once you have to convince somebody, you're giving them status. Like they're, you know, you have to, it's like you guys have the status to make or break my life. And so I have to, it's like, you guys have the status to make or break my life. And so I have to convince you. And then you still might convince them, but forever after the relationship is determined by the fact that you gave them status. Now, sometimes it's okay to give people status. Like, you know, this is a negotiating thing, but let's say I was negotiating

with a boss on raising my salary. So he might say to me, or she might say, okay, what do you think I should pay you? And the correct answer is not to convince them, well, you know, I'm doing twice the work, so all I'm asking for is another thousand a year. The correct answer might be more something like, hey, let me ask you for advice. You know, I've been working really hard.

My head's been down to the grind or whatever. And, you know, I'm focused on that. You're like the grandmaster of, you know, determining people's salaries. You're the boss. You're the one figuring all this stuff out. What would you advise me to ask for if you were me oh what a good strategy raise yeah because then you give them status okay and they don't want to get once you've given them status they don't want to lose that status so they're not teams do you know how i stole that i heard you say that before i i like

i said there's a few of your things where i'm like i can tell you which is one of the reasons even when you said like you like my stuff and i was like well somewhat of the way that I think about things is because of your people but like that literally when I came here I said that when I first moved to New York I went to some of the comedy clubs and when I talked to the guy I think there was a couple owners and I said hey if you know, I just moved here Like I was a headliner in my country. I did all this stuff It's like what would your advice be like would you do you think that I should be showing up and like seeing if there's any Spots or would you rather me kind of like leave you alone for a bit?

Like, what would your advice be for me? And then they're invested in, it's exactly kind of what you're saying. Right. You're, you're, you're giving them respect. You're giving them status. They actually really don't want to give you bad advice. So, cause they want you, they want to keep status with you. So everybody wants more and more self-worth and and status and so on like a hundred percent

of people so it's that technique works so well and that's a great technique yeah and usually like in when i think of it what do you think it worked with a girl like you're gonna you know bring her home and you're like babe what would you what would your be advice for me to do to try to fuck you right now well you know what by the way that's probably a pretty good technique because it's a little bit funny in that context right right like Right. If you were me right now. I'm thinking about this, but what would you do if you were, what would you tell me to do if you were me? I'm not going to think. If I'm trying to close it.

She's going to think that's either funny or, you know. Yeah. Yeah, whatever. So, so that's, that's, that's still not a bad technique. I'm trying to think of a version of that. That is a bad technique. Like where you like, don't even touch her and where you just directly ask, what do you want me to do here? I don't know. No, no one wants to. They want no one wants people, especially women.

But like most people just want the illusion of control and they just want to backseat drive your choices. Right. So that's just it. Like when you ask for advice, you're kind of still you. The reality is you're the one taking status but you're pretending like they have status so yeah that's why it works with the in the you got the girl at home situation too yeah you could play it up a little bit more like almost as like it's a joke but she still has this opportunity to to play into it and it's a little bit role

play kind of thing there's some of these awesome little things they're just like just change the way you think of the whole thing you know who i had my one friend who's role play kind of thing. There's some of these awesome little things that are just like, just change the way you think of the whole thing. You know who I had? My one friend who's really, he kind of was one of the guys that told me, you know, kind of got me into this stuff a lot when I was like 24. But he like, I remember one, the first thing, he's like, he's actually a comic too that lives in New York too, Danny Polasek. But he was one of the first guys.

He follows me on Twitter. You met Danny? Dude, he's the man. And he was one of the guys that like I first met that I was just like, just like thinks differently about things. And I remember him saying, he goes, he doesn't pay for parking. He doesn't pay for parking anywhere in Toronto. And I go, he goes, well, I just added it up.

And the amount of tickets I get will never be more than the parking. So every, at the end of the month, he just pays his like four parking tickets and it's less than paying the $10 twice a day. He just parks wherever he wants. And I started doing that. And then at the end of the month, I would just pay my three or four and America, I think there might be some, you know, I know they can arrest you for parking tickets or whatever, but I was like, and I just started doing that. And it's like, literally just save a hundred bucks a month and change nothing. Yeah. Well, you know, that's a very, um,

free economics technique. It is kind of that realm of possibility, but well, they did this one experiment where this one school was sick of the parents were always dropping off their kids late. So they decided to charge a penalty. Whenever your parents dropped off their kid late, they'd have to pay like a $20 fine or whatever. And then the number of parents dropping off their kids late tripled because they actually had a cost. They actually knew the value of dropping off the kids late. And they didn't feel guilty about it anymore. Right. And they knew the value of their time.

Like, all right, I'll pay 20 bucks to drop off my kid a half hour late. It became a premium drop-off instead of a deterrent. It became a premium drop-off service. Right. So let's think about this. How does this apply in comedy? Or how does the kind of giving the audience sort of this fake status apply in comedy? Well, I'll tell you how I do it a lot of times. I pretend.

I mean, again, it's theatrical. But I'm pretending a lot of times that I agree with them. And I thought, what? I'm taking your logic. I'm trying to be a male feminist. Tell me what I'm going to do. A lot of my attitude is kind of like, guys, I'm trying to be a better person. And if you can't see that, you tell me what i'm gonna do like i'm yeah a lot of my attitude is kind of like guys i'm trying to be a better person and if you can't see that like you tell me what to have to do so it's it's almost like a satirical version of that but i'm still like you guys are the experts it's your

rules i don't follow them yeah you know it's funny when you say that i do almost that exact same thing so i'll say like uh my my my daughter will say daddy you know what what college should i go to and i'm like instead of spending 300 000 a a year in college, you know, you're a young, pretty woman. You know, all you're going to do in college is have like sex all the time. So you don't need to spend $300,000 to have sex. Why don't you charge? Why don't you make $300 to have sex?

Why don't you charge? And then everyone's like, almost like a little bit. And then I say like, you know what? I'm just trying to be a good dad. That's it. Yeah. Guys, I'm trying. Yeah.

You tell me. Yeah. So you're kind of doing the same thing. You're, you're giving them the status ironically a little bit. Right. That's good. I never made the parallel with the advice technique before, but that's exactly it. Like you kind of buy into their rules and, and then, but then you kind of lean into it

the wrong way, but then the best, but then, then you have to pull off being unreliable. So if they, if they think, you force them to be the puritanical side to say that they're like, well, we do agree with that, except for in those scenario. And you're like, okay, well give me the rules. I'm listening. Like you're the boss. And then there, and then eventually what happens is most people are kind of like, well, I don't want to be the rulemaker anymore. This sucks. I'm on your team. She's the rulemaker. Right. And then, and then they can, then they start to buy into, like, it depends on which direction you go where they start to buy into, like, well, college obviously is such a joke or you're, you're really against college, right?

You're like, you're one of the main people there. Like you said, you don't want your kids to go to school. It's a mess, right? Yeah. Yeah. And you know, it's funny. I wrote about it in 2005. What'd you go to college for? I went to college for computer science So here's the thing, I went to college for computer science I graduated in three years because I was paying for my college And so I had to figure out how to skip a year And then I went to graduate school for computer science And I was thrown out of graduate school

And then, so here I'd been What were you thrown out for? I wanted to write the great American novel So I wrote, all I was doing, I failed? I was, I was, I wanted to write, I wanted to write the great American novel. So I wrote all I was doing. I failed every class and all I was doing was writing novels. And eventually they said, look, come back when you're more mature, but we have to ask you to leave. And, uh, and then I worked as a programmer for a while at the school, but then when I had a real, my first real job, I, after majoring in computer science and going to one of the best grad schools

in the country for computer science, and I had published academic research in computer science, and I'd been programming for years. I probably had already put in my 10,000 hours of programming. At the first real job I had, I was such a bad programmer. They had to send me to remedial programming classes in order so they wouldn't fire me. And here I was like, you know, I was almost at like a PhD level of computer science. It's that kind of underlined for me. Like, what the hell did I go to college for? Like I, I, you know, I learned more in those remedial classes for,

for a week or two than I learned in like, you know, five years of study. You're the classic, like Kanye West story that I got kicked out of the school for computer science. Then you create all these like computer companies that's sold for these big IPO or not IPOs, but exits or whatever. Yeah. Like I, I was not a bad programmer, but I like somehow or other like education wasn't doing it. And you see, you see a lot, like there's a disconnect between innovation and research. So someone could be really great at physics, but they would never be qualified to build a rocket. So even if they studied rocket science, they still wouldn't be able to work for SpaceX and build a rocket. So there's a real disconnect. And people don't realize that there's a real disconnect between

what you learned in college and what actually is useful in real life, even in practical sciences. And so I wrote this article in 2005 for the Financial Times where I said nobody should send their kids to college ever again. And I got so much criticism because then I was the only one saying it, maybe me and Peter Thiel, actually. And now I think it's a much more common Particularly after this lockdown Where colleges just said Everybody get out of here but we're keeping all the money Like now it's more of a

Mainstream conversation And in a few years it's not even going to be a conversation Like colleges will be just over Is my guess I've been arguing with people a lot on that topic Where people kind of It's like a lot of times you'll agree with Bernie Sanders With the problem and then his solution You're like he's, this college is a scam. No kids should be going

out with this, uh, with these huge debts. And then you're like agreed. And he's like, so what we need to do is pay for every kid to have $500,000. And you're like, I was, I thought your, your answer was going to be get rid of this whole thing. It seemed pretty obvious. That's where you're going with this. Yeah. And Andrew Yang actually brought up the interesting thing that only really the top third of society goes to college. So Bernie Sanders, as much as he's the man of the people, like that multi-trillion dollar solution, but it's only really benefiting the upper class who's in. Let's give 500K to a bunch of rich kids. Yeah.

So they can party. Right. And meanwhile, the people who want jobs, the people who need jobs to live, let's say people who are an 18-year-old girl whose husband is not around and she's raising two kids. Let's say she's been... These are all racial stereotypes, of course,

so I don't... Whatever. She works at a roti store yeah she works at a do-rag stand or or she can't even work because she's got to raise these kids or or here's the other thing most occupations like you can't even charge to braid someone's hair unless you pay an occupant a license fee to the state and you know sometimes before you get into that which i actually tell me that whole that i want to because i know you had a license fee to the state. Before you get into that, which actually tell me that whole,

that I want to, because I know you had a few of them, but this is, before you say it, this was one of the things where it's like, there's certain people that I have in my life,

like three or four guys that I'll call like, and they'll give you an out of the box solution. I've heard 10 people talk about the difference of this issue of like, what would be,

what would be some actual changes they could make as opposed to like all these ceremonial things and everyone arguing and then i've listened to you said and you're the first person that said like three or four actual here's what they should actually change that i've never heard anyone say before that would make a real difference for to and one you know the first half was what you could change for cops and the second half which is what you're going to say is what they could change to actually make lives better for, you know, black people to have not a lot of money. Right. Like, like just they've been braiding people's hair all their lives or doing nails or whatever.

Don't require 10 months of cosmetology school and then a license fee to the government when they're struggling to take care of two kids also. So and then if they move from one state- Remove the regulation. Yeah, they move from one state to the next. Oh, suddenly Florida, you got to do it again because we really need nails done in a different way than Alabama. And like, it's all, they got to do the whole thing again.

Of course, that doesn't affect you or me, but it affects the bottom third of society. And here's the real point is the real kind of stunning thing is everyone's complaining about, oh my gosh, there's anarchy in the streets. No, you know who the real anarchists are? The people who can do absolutely anything they want without consequences are billionaires. Like billionaires are pure anarchists because they could do the you know the definition is you could just do whatever you want without consequences and they live their lives that way and the the poorest people have to pay fines and licenses and they can't walk down the street and

you know that there's the you they can't get welfare if they get a job and there's all these restrictions so they can't do what they want yeah whenever they make like a big law of like you know oh how all the regulation on restaurants it's like you know no billionaires love that shit it's like you just got rid of all their competition you know right yeah no they want that's like impossible to start a store oh no you just made a hundred thousand dollars for us to start a store yeah we'll fund that easily and joe blows bakery just fucking got put out of business sweet which is kind of what happened in this lockdown like we're gonna see tons of small exactly what happened go out of business and then everybody who's like and they even try to do it like you see it it's so insidious like if someone says well that doesn't like um you know bugs bunny

vitamin d pills solve coronavirus hey shut up you tard Republican. Like you can't say that we've worked Gilead sciences is working on a $2 billion drug. That's going to solve coronavirus completely not vitamin D like candy. And then suddenly you're not even allowed to mention it because then you're going to be, you know, banished from the cult. Yeah. So, yeah, like you really will get kicked off of Facebook. You're at the funniest point saying that, you know, right, because right now everyone's like getting fired and canceled, like right and left, you know what I mean? Which is, again, one of the things that I've been saying has been a,

you know, where are the movements like getting off track, you know what I mean? Instead of looking for real solutions like the ones you're talking about, it's let's, you know, what we want is police reform. We want a lot of people to lose their jobs for anything. They tweeted in 2001. That can't be part of your demand package. Yeah.

But you said the funniest point that on Twitter, you can watch like a gore porn of like people getting murdered and the blood dripping out of their heads all day long, but you can't like tweet a fucking bad joke. Yeah, no, it's true. Like when I was a kid there was

a vhs tape that was making the rounds uh faces of death and it was like a video of people dying and like this was considered horrific like i didn't even want to watch this video i didn't watch it and uh uh it was considered the worst thing it would like damage you but now like my little kids can if you just like Google that St. Louis cop who got shot by looters, you literally can watch a six minute video of this guy bleeding out of his chest while he's mouthing, wordlessly mouthing,

help me while some guy is screaming, we just wanted TVs, man. We just wanted TVs. And like, that's all over Twitter. But if you like tweet out like, uh, you know, hydroxychloroquine has been working for 50 years for malaria. Should we take a look at it? You're that's like censored. Like you can't, and I don't even know if it's Twitter, maybe it's Facebook or LinkedIn somewhere. I've been censored and it's just, there's so much

hypocrisy, but you can't get angry about it either because then you'll just be angry all day. There's so much hypocrisy, but you can't get angry about it either because then you'll just be angry all day. Yeah. Well, that's – so, okay. But the other ones, I think you said – the actual ones, you said – like if we're saying three – for me, it's always been the number one if you were looking at police problems. The number one I've always said is the fact that they can't be fired, the unions. Like that's insane that you can do this four times and not get fired. Like to me, that's the ultimate one. that's insane that you can do this four times and not get fired. Like to me, that's the ultimate one.

And then, but as far as, uh, the, the culture stuff, you kind of said banking reform was like a big one. Yeah. Like you can't, a lot, a lot of people, um, you know, and this is sort of more a class thing, but when I moved here, I couldn't get, uh, it was very hard for me to get a bank account. I literally go to the places, right. I go, you know, I'm trying to get a bank. I just moved here. I've got a green card. I'm trying to get a bank account. And they're like, no, we can't give you one. And I was like, okay, this, and then I went and got a social security number and the two places wouldn't give me one. Then one gave me one. I go, I own a house. Like what is going on right now? I'm trying to get a checkings account. I own a house. So why wouldn't they give you a bank account? Because I didn't have any, I'm like a 16 year old girl is, you know, as far as they're concerned,

like I just, I don't exist up until yesterday. Yeah. And I'm like, here, why don't I show, but there's no, there's no one to talk to. There's no nothing. So, you know, you're kind of saying that basically all these people end up with these, what is it? They go to like the payday loan places. Yeah.

Yeah. Pawn shops, payday loan, you know, rent to furniture stores. Like there's all this whole category of business that caters to people who are, don't have bank accounts. And, uh, you know, if you think about it, pawn shops are just banks that lend you money and, but, but they keep the collateral, uh, payday loans. Uh, I don't know what the comparison is, but they'll lend you money And your paycheck is the collateral Rent to furniture It's just poor people tax essentially

Yeah it's totally It's totally a regressive tax And meanwhile You have companies like Square, Venmo Or heck let's give the post office something to do Like people should just be able to Keep money at the post office In the same way people keep other items

Like in a safety deposit box But that is not allowed Like there's a whole banking system that penalizes the bottom third of society. So anytime you do about that, like, cause I guess what I'm thinking, you know, it's like, if that's a free market thing or whatever, does it, someone needs to start that? Or are you assuming the government, like how, what is the solution to that that, you know, for right now? Well, there's, there's the solution is, uh, okay. So the solution is just let people, you know, just, I should be allowed to open a business that, uh, acts like a bank. Like the thing about a bank is how does a bank make money? The bank takes your money and then it borrows from the federal reserve five times the amount.

0%. Yeah. At 0%. And they lend it at 4% to people who want to buy houses and they take the spread. That's the main way banks make money. So if you're not a bank, you can't borrow from the Fed and you can't earn money. And it's harder to become a bank. Yeah, yeah. And it's very regulated.

So what about though, if I could just put it at Venmo or Square? Like Square is not allowed to hold onto your money. Venmo is not really allowed to hold onto your money. Let them hold onto your money. Let them even borrow against it. Let them lend it so they can make money on it and not regulate them as much. So instead of having like seven places

that are allowed to do this, you're like, you know, if another company wants to branch out and also lend people money and let them store their money there, then all of a sudden we don't have this situation like the amount of people i know that are legitimately holding them and this is a slightly different but just how bad people are with money unless you like literally give them an option that's easy i know so many people that are holding like a balance on

a high interest credit card they've got like three grand on a high interest credit card that's been there for a few years you're like what are you doing go get a line of credit pay that off you idiot they're like or or here's the other thing. This is what people don't realize either. Don't pay back your credit card ever because people say, Oh no, I can't do that. That's unethical. And I say, no, if I lent you money, like if your friend lent you money and you didn't pay them back, that would be unethical. But when you owe money to a bank via your credit card, you have a contract and the contract has two choices. You either pay, you could pay back your money

and the bank doesn't do anything or it's a perfectly valid choice to not pay back the money and the bank can take action against you. But then your credit gets messed up though, right? Your credit gets messed up, but people don't realize, first off, it's very hard for the credit to get messed up. There's lots of stages the bank has to go through. First, they sell your debt to a credit card. No, they sell your debt to a hedge fund. The hedge fund sells your debt to a credit card agency. The credit card agency hires lawyers. Then the lawyers,

16 months later- James Altucher life hack, don't pay your credit card. This is true. Then the lawyers, then the lawyers, you know, 16 months later, James Altucher life hack, don't pay your credit card. This is true. Like then the lawyers, they can either take legal action or they affect your credit score, but then they'll call you a million times, right? We're all used to getting a million calls. And then you say, oh, I don't even remember that debt. Can you send me documentation? It's three or four levels away from the documentation. They never send you the documentation. So you'll never send you the documentation. So you'll never have to pay back. And let's say worse comes to worse.

Your credit score is affected. Okay, well, when you actually need credit, there are credit score agencies that wait for $1,000. They'll solve that whole problem for you. Yeah, they'll just negotiate. Oh, James, you owed $100, pay six, and the credit score agency will be fine. And your credit score. I mean, I've had my credit score go from like 500 to seven 80 paying one of these agencies. Uh, I owed, like,

I was trying to buy a house in 1999 and I, I realized my undergrad had, had created, had ongoing interest on a library, uh uh loan that i never returned the book so i owed like hundreds of dollars on this library one of those stories yeah and and so i just said to the i hired a credit card agency and for like a thousand dollars i was able to buy a house as my credit score agent you know moved up but in general you're a lot it's not has nothing to do with ethics you already signed the contract so you're just taking up. But in general, you're a lot, it's not, it has nothing to do with ethics. You already signed the contract. So you're just taking a different route in the country.

It's the same thing about a house. Like I think, you know, the ethics are a little more interesting, but let's say you bought a house and now you're in financial trouble. Well, okay. You signed a contract with the bank. You don't have to pay back your loan. It's just then you have to give the house to the bank. And it takes about anywhere from eight to 18 or 24 months for the bank to go through the paperwork to get your house.

So if you want to not pay back your house, it's perfectly legal and it's perfectly ethical. You already made the agreement with the bank that it's not like the bank said, you better be ethical or there's an unethical choice. No, the bank it's perfectly valid for both for the bank to take your house or for the bank to take your money. Cause they'll take your house and they're going to make money on it. They'll just flip it right away and they'll make money. They're like renegade finance tips. Like not your grandma and not your grandma. wait not your average not your average

business podcast yeah exactly like people don't know these things because they because the marketing of the banks and the marketing of society is that this is be scared yeah yeah no it's unethical when you borrow money from a family member and you don't pay it back because you're not going to have like lawyers like if you borrow from your dad you're not going to have like a lawyer work on the contract it's like oh okay it's understood you're gonna pay back um and then it's unethical to not pay back he expects you to pay back but in all other cases where there's a contract as long as you're abiding by the contract it's not unethical if you try to then i mean there's i guess you could verge into the unethical you could sue and say no i'm never paying back because they didn't do this and like you could lie or whatever but you could ethically not pay back credit card

and housing debt uh you know irs that i wouldn't risk that's dangerous right because they could just kill you and uh student loan debt you're not allowed to to risk but housing it feels like it feels like there's a kind of almost it does because you said it's a race you know it's a race problem but it's also a class problem it feels like if you can clean up a lot of these like things that are fucking over poor people the race thing just gets sorted out because it's it's 80 you know whatever 70 people might be of whatever of this ethnicity but it's like you don't even really need to have that conversation it's like we're gonna fix all these problems they're fucking over people at the, you know, somewhat of the

poverty level. And that'll just solve the other problem. Secondarily, you'll already do it. Right. Like, let's take George Floyd as an example and let's give him every benefit of the doubt on anything at all in his history. Like, we don't know who George Floyd is. All we know is, is that at the scene of the crime, he was I don't even know he was trying to pass a bad check or something because he was hungry and he was starving and he had to feed family or whatever and then you know the hit the fan this cop clearly murdered him was horrible but what if George Floyd was just rich he would never have gotten in this situation. Of course. And now, of course, we don't want racist cops either, but don't even give the racist cops, you know, a chance to, to, to hurt somebody. Yeah. Let's, let's remove all the opportunities. Like let's say the cop

unions can't be broken up. Okay. So let's just stop giving cops opportunities to hurt people. And let's stop giving racist cops opportunities to hurt African Americans. Let's just make all the African Americans rich by stopping the obstacles for them to make money. Right now, there's so many obstacles for people in the bottom third of society to make money. Whenever I talk to people that are poor and you see like the amount that their money just like disappears and you're like, man, this, it does. You really have to switch your brain to get out of that. Like kind of poor people thinking or whatever. What's what's I think it's,

I don't know if this was your, your thing that you say, but it's a, no, it might've been with the Dilbert guys, Sam, Sam. Oh, Scott Adams. I think you had him on the pot. What was his new book? It was like stupid people thinkers? Yeah, Loser Think. Loser Think. But there's also like Poor Think, you know? And it's just like such a mentality that you have to get out of because the whole thing's kind of rigged against you

when you're in that fucking scenario. No, it's true. Like I have a friend who she lives in a house that's literally sinking. Like the developer probably knew that he was building all these houses on ground that was eventually gonna turn into a swamp. And she bought this house and she owed all this money then.

And I'm like, just leave the house, like just abandon it. And she's like, no, I can't do that. Like, you know, I owe I, I owe the money. Like I'll, I won't be able to buy a house again. But it's almost like you need a little, you know, it's kind of counterintuitive, but that, that thing where a lot of people go like you're saying about billionaires,

like they do whatever the fuck they want. It's like, yeah, that's the thing you need to have. Like you need to have a little bit of like, yeah, I don't give a shit about the rules. If you want to beat this thing, you know, like, you need to stop following these rules a little bit to get out of it. But it's this cycle, right? Absolutely. Like, do you know the Louis C.K. joke?

He like he had a rental car and he gets to the airport and he just gets out of the rental car, leaves the park there and he goes catch this plane. He's on the plane. It's like going down the runway. And he calls the rental car place and says, Hey, I just left your rental car at the airport. It's at this gate, you could pick it up. And they're like, No, no, you can't do that. You have to drop it off at the rental car place. And he's like, Well, I already didn't do that. And I'm on the plane and I'm leaving the country. So there it is. And that guy is like, oh man. And like, I'm not recommending like maybe what Louis CK did there was a little bit over the line because the expectation is.

No, but you got to look out for yourself a little bit first and foremost. I always have this conversation with a lot of people will be like, you know, I want to be a, you know, I want to start a successful business or whatever in this and, or I want to be this. And you're like, what should I, what should I do? It'd be like, okay, we'll do this. And they're like, well, I can't cancel that. Cause I have to have a dinner with my friends twice a week. And you're like, okay, well then do it here. You're like, well, no, I can't cancel that. And you're like, well, I guess don't do it then. I don't know. It sounds like your priority

set. So then what are we doing? You know? But by the way, I'm sure, you know, a lot of people that way, like how many people do you know who they're all ready to write their novel? Um, but here they are arguing with you at like one in the morning at some bar and, you know, they're clearly not writing their novel because they want to, you know, and then when they get home, they want to watch TV. Like you gotta like, I have to do this. Yeah. You, you, you, you, you gotta break the rules of either your friends or your society or your school or your boss or your work. Like, yeah, you got, you're going to have to piss off someone. You're going to have to break some rules. Yeah. Like, like my, when I was my first real job, I had $0 in the bank, like zero.

And I had student loan debt and so I needed my job, but how are you going to start a business if you're in that situation? Well, you simply start a business and you just do it. The fact that you have a job. So I would like in the middle of the day, sometimes I would have to like quickly change into a suit, run, you know, a few blocks away where there was a potential client and, you know, convince them to use my services, then run back to work. And I had a side business for 18 months before I quit my full-time job. By the way, at my full-time job, I was doing well enough because I was getting so much exposure to the industry by having clients all over the industry that I was really good at what I was doing. So I kept getting promoted.

And finally, I was in charge of HBO's website. And so I hired my own company to do HBO's website. Now, yes, that's a little unfair, but I also knew because I intimately knew HBO, I knew that I, as a company would do the best possible job. So that's, you know, it was a good client for my business. And then finally, after 18 months, I was courageous enough to leave my full-time job, to go to my, my side hustle, my, my business. And then finally, after 18 months, I was courageous enough to leave my full-time job to go to my, my side hustle, my, my business. That was one of the biggest things it's like, you know, cause you kind of put things in, in these like real manageable steps where people

are like, you know, I have this five time, five day a week job. And it's like, okay, well see if you can negotiate with your boss. If you're killing it for four days, then you take a day off. And now you have three days to do whatever you want. And you're like, well, I need a rest day. And you're like, I don't know.

Yeah. Yeah. You're getting in this. Do you think that because of all this and the way that everything is right now, for example, do you think that like on a personal level, everyone that's like an activist or even,

you know, super political the other way, it feels like in a lot of ways that's become the ultimate excuse. Cause it's like, you know how, when you cancel someone, it feels like in a lot of ways that's become the ultimate excuse because it's like you know how when you cancel someone it's like not only do you get to fucking be mean you're also right there's this other element of like well if you're not if you're not part of the solution you're part of the problem like yo you're focusing on your university degree like when the when you need to be making social change it's like is there no better way to be lazy then, well, you know what, if you want to be some great at something, you know,

sometimes you don't get to also be an activist when, you know, maybe sometimes you don't get to participate in this, but those are maybe sacrifices you have to make. But so on a personal level, do you see this as like a, the ultimate time to be lazy and then justify it as being a, you know, virtuous? Absolutely. But that that's true for almost everything. Like, Oh, you know, look, I've done it too. Like after, after nine 11 you know, I blew off some things like off nine 11 affected me too much, but like, I have, I have five kids and they're all, you know, of that age between 18 and 22 where they're interested in, you know,

pro the protest or trying to understand it, you know, the protest, they're trying to understand it. You know, kids try to like, they want to feel like they can make change and it's the next generation that's going to come and lead the world. But I do try to make sure with them that they don't use it as an excuse. Like, oh, I say to them, like, okay, you're quoting Martin Luther King as a reason to riot. Why don't you show me where he actually says that and let's talk about it. And then I try to what's called steel man their argument, which is like I'll take their side better than they can take their side. So I'll argue for their side until they realize it's just ridiculous, hopefully. side. So I'll argue for their side until they realize it's just ridiculous, hopefully. So I don't really let them get away with it. But you're right. This lockdown, these protests is like,

oh, well, how can I participate in this society if it's so corrupt? There's too many easy outs that society gives. But the flip side of that is for people who really do want to be good. I'm not even using the word. I'm not even using the word success. And for people who want to be good at what they're really interested in, this is a great time now. People who want to move forward in any way, you know what I mean? Whatever that might be a relationship.

You know, some people's goals are different. Some people's goals might be, you know what? I want to meet the person of my dreams and have like a happy life. That might be your goal. But if it's like, also, I need to, I need to protest on the Internet for four hours a day. It's like, you know, whatever your goal is, it's going to it's going to be a problem. Yeah. And there's always easy outs. Like, you know, I could have said when I started my first business, I could have said, oh, you know, I got to first pay back my student loans. Or, you know, I'm just my job at HBO is 60 hours a week. I can't possibly do this.

And there's, there's always, always, always an excuse. Like when I've been, I've been, you know, after I sold my first business, then I went dead broke because, you know, there's three skills to money, making it, keeping it, growing it. I couldn't keep it. Like I gambled it away or invested away or whatever. And I could have used that as an excuse to like, just take a job again. And I just didn't want to, like I really didn't want to. So I worked, ultimately I got out of my depression and, and worked hard to come up with ideas and be creative and exercise my

creativity until I found new ideas. And, you know, I don't know what I would have done. Popularize the 10 ideas a day. Yeah. Right. Yeah. And look, I do it for comedy too. Like, Oh, here's 10 things I could joke about. If you can't think of, if you don't have, if it's too hard to think of 10 and think of 20. Yeah, it's true because then it's like, you're giving yourself a break. So it sort of unleashes the creativity. And, uh creativity. And that happened to me the other day, actually,

for the first time in a while. I was coming up with, my list was, and we referred to it before, but here are the 10 things that are most hypocritical right now. And like, I just blew past it to like 18. And usually I don't blow past the 10. What were some of the best things that you decided are hypocritical right now? Because that's right up my alley of like stuff that I've been talking about.

So I, the reason I made the list was so this, this guy I knew he'd been on my podcast, Alex Berenson. He was, he's a big thriller writer. He's a bestselling thriller writer, but he wrote this book about the pandemic and,

and he was very much against the lockdowns. His wife's a doctor, an emergency room doctor. So he wasn't, he's he, and he's a former New York times journalist. Like he's a smart guy and he has access to smart people, but he was like against the lockdowns and he was all data driven.

So he had a huge following from this and he just wrote a book compiling all his tweets about it. And he self published it on Amazon and Amazon said, no, it violates our terms and standards. Meanwhile, I think the comparison I was- You can fucking buy Mein Kampf on Amazon if you want to. Yeah. It's so funny you say that because that was my first example that I wrote on the list. Oh, you had a better one. When I wrote it in an actual article, I replaced Mein Kampf with, there's a book, How to Drink

Your Own Urine. And that's clearly not good medical advice. Like I actually researched it. Like that's not good medical advice. And that was like a book. Like I'm not even saying a best-selling book. That was a book that was published. And Alex couldn't publish his book.

That was actually pretty on accurate every step of the way. Like he was kind of known for being accurate every step of the way. And people get angry at him about the next thing. So that was like the first thing. But then, and then it was kind of like, there's snuff videos on Twitter, but I can't, if you just tweet the word coronavirus, like just one word tweet, they will probably ban. I forget if it's on, you know,

what's good about my video, the things I'm doing, James and satire. Like, I don't know if he's, I think you liked it. So I think you saw the last one where I said that, you know, the coronavirus only affects his causes that I don't support. Yeah.

Whatever that was. Exactly. Yeah. But because, because the algorithms can't detect satire, I'm actually saying things that are on their side. That's so funny. So my stuff doesn't seem to get taken down because I'm saying like,

actually, you know, the things I'm saying is that last week it was, uh, you needed to stay home. Whereas this week, it's actually not a big deal and you should protest, but that's what they think.

Yeah. They must've seen the word coronavirus and causes and figured, Oh, okay. He's socially conscious. So they can't detect satire. So I'm not, I'm actually seeing a ridiculous version

of what they agree with. So I never seem to get taken those down. I'd get lots of stuff taken down, but not my satire videos with takes like that. Oh yeah, and that was another one. The whole, this is sort of, I even said in my list, this is sort of the obvious one, that a week earlier, someone was yelling at me for not social distancing.

And I'm pretty sure the exact same person was, you know, going to every protest where there are 50,000 people gathered in Washington. Those people were I know people that went to the protest and that legitimately were mad at me because I did a segment on the street interviewing people with a big long stick mic. Cause I, you know, I wasn't very, I wasn't into this stuff from the get go the, the stay at home and all that stuff. But the, the people that messaged me, they go, this is so irresponsible. And then they're, it's, it's, it's so insane. Okay. That's three. Do you have any other? Like I, I would, I would get comments. Like I posted a video on TikTok where I was actually wearing a mask and I was showing people in Central Park jogging and they were social distancing. And people would accuse me. They would say to me, I hope your grandma dies. Somehow grandma became a word.

Your grandmas can't be still alive. Are they? No, they're not alive. Yeah. You're like, yeah. But like the words grandma and Karen suddenly became like new vocabulary

words. Oh, that got really in the mix. Yeah. Yeah. And, but yeah, yeah.

Like the whole social distancing thing meshed with the protests was ridiculous. That was the biggest hypocrisy for you. Yeah. That was, that was, I got obsessed with, that's why I made the video there.

Cause I was, I was obsessed with that. Yeah. That was the, that was the biggest one. And then I'm trying to think about this. The other thing about these idea lists is, and this is what I tell people, people ask me, well, how do you keep track of them? Like, do you put them in a spreadsheet? And I'm like, no, the idea of writing these idea lists is just to exercise the muscle. So when you really do need to come up with good ideas. Do you recommend that for normal people where it's like, even if they're talking about, you know, someone that they might work with or not work with or someone that they like or don't like, would you, do you kind of think people should be like doing that? Like 10 reasons I would want to work with this person or 10, you know? Yeah. Yeah. Like I do, I do it almost over

anything in my life or another common one is i'll do like 10 ways to help so and so or like uh 10 way like we're using zoom i'll think of 10 ways zoom can be better or 10 ways google could be better so i visited because of these idea lists and then i share the ideas anything on the top of your head that you can remember is like your top in the last week have you had any bangers where you're like oh that's a's a good one. Yeah. Yeah. I did. Uh, well I did 10 features I would add to zoom and then I'm thinking, you know, and I was about to send them to zoom. And then I'm like, you know what? This is the one time I talked to a few programmers and I, I got a programmer who was like, you know what? I'll do this. I'll do this with you. And so I'm just, there's a lot of open source, open source software about video conferencing. And so I'm working on my Zoom Plus, which is like the 10 features that I think are interesting.

Right. So on top of Zoom. So that's one where I took the idea for myself rather than shared it. Normally, I just share it because what am I going to do? Work on 3,000 ideas a year? Like normally, I'll just share ideas. going to work on 3000 ideas a year. Like normally I'll just share ideas. And, and, and because of sharing ideas, I have visited Amazon, LinkedIn, Twitter, Facebook, Google, Airbnb, because I'm always sharing, I like, Oh, right. 10 ideas. Airbnb can be kind of like the, the, the OG big

or one of the big, uh, newsletters, I guess, but, or, yeah, you know, what, what was, I guess it would just be a website that was publishing your, what would the, like, I don't know if it's daily articles. What would you call that? Yeah. Yeah. Like I, I have a bunch of newsletters. It's a business that I sold actually. And they, they still sell these newsletters, but yeah, I have these newsletters with ideas and turned into the podcast. Yeah. And then, but there was this one time where I, I, there was one experiment I did where I threw out every single, this is more than an experiment really, but I threw out every single thing I owned, like everything, nothing left.

And I stopped renting. I didn't want to rent or own an apartment. So I just lived in air. I had a carry on bag and I lived from Airbnb to Airbnb and I did that for years. And then it gave me a lot of experience with Airbnb. So I can't always, Oh, here's 10 ideas for Airbnb. I sent it to them and they realized, gosh, this guy's lived in hundreds of Airbnbs. So they had me, they paid for me to go out and speak at a big Airbnb conference. Yeah. And then, and then Steven Spielberg's company called me and said, hey, we want to do a TV show about your life. And as these things go, nothing.

And, you know, after 2,700 meetings, nothing ever happens. Always, yeah. Yeah. But, you know, just things happen when you share ideas. And, you know, when you're abundant and you share, that is much greater for creating opportunity than if you hold on to like that one idea and you don't wanna-

It's so gross when people are like, don't steal my idea. It's like, if you're worried about your idea like getting stole, like you're, then you don't have good ideas. Right, like if you're worried about your idea- You don't understand how ideas work, that's for sure. Yeah, it's true.

Like if someone's, like I used to, people used to say, hey, I have this great idea, but you have to sign an NDA. And I'm like, if if someone's like i used to people used to say hey i'll i have this great idea but you have to sign an nda and like if you're worried that it's going to be so easy for me yeah yeah take your idea and do it better than you then it's definitely not a good idea you have then all you have is an idea for sure right and you don't have a team you don't have an execution strategy you don't have any capital like all you have is an idea at this point like which is why i have no problem ever telling people my idea because if they could do it better for me, better than me, power to them. That means I

didn't really care about it so much. I have one idea that I think is pretty good, but I have no problem sharing it. I don't know if I'll ever do it, but I'm wearing pajamas right now. And for the past 30 days in a row- I've seen that you've been kicking around in pajamas. Yeah. So for the past 30 days in a row been kicking around in pajamas. Yeah. So for the past 30 days in a row, I've just worn nothing about pajamas inside and outside because what the hell we're just, the whole world has changed. Like, why do I ever need to wear like uncomfortable clothes again? And by definition, these are the most comfortable clothes. The idea isn't George Floyd pajamas. No. Okay, good. But, but that could be a variation but the idea is is two things one is um design

pajamas that kind of you could wear outdoors they have interesting designs the way outdoor clothes i mean isn't that what they just do in like every country in the middle east probably yeah or india like those yeah they kind of just wear pajamas i always said that any any country where the girls uh don't talk that much the guys just fucking wear pajamas all day yeah it's kind of like when you wear those like flowing robes like I like that yeah and so that's what pajamas sort of feel like so why not um have outerwear like maybe you know for instance you never see pajamas that have like a logo on them and like three stripes down the sleeve like Like there's like nice designs for it.

I especially love, James, the people that you've worked with before that you, you know, your last idea, you know, the last thing you worked with them was like your algorithmic trading. And then you're like, all right, you love the algorithmic trading company. I'll tell you what you're really going to love. Yeah. Anytime pajamas. And they're like, all right, James, I think.

But it gets better. It gets better. So my, my wife was telling me, Hey, you read this article that, uh, you know, copper has these antiviral and antibacterial properties, which is true. If you like Google, it's true. So like, that's why people use it's like silver to silverware is silver made out of silver because it, it's acts as a disinfectant when you pick up the food and before it gets to your mouth. Silver has these antibacterial properties. So then I do this thing called idea sex where I combine ideas. So I said, what about copper infused pajamas? So now it's anti-coronavirus and it's comfortable clothes you can wear all day long with nice design. So that's potentially, who knows, That's potentially like a fashion line that people would buy it. So that was like an idea of the week.

And by the way, most ideas will be bad ideas, but it just keeps you in practice. That's why you've had like tons of companies that sold for a huge amount of money. Yeah. And also tons of failures that didn't work. Like I, one time I made a, a, a dating website on top of Twitter where every, you get matched automatically based on how your tweets match with the other person, but then nobody was using it. And I realized, Oh, it's because on dating sites, people want to be anonymous and on Twitter, you weren't so, but you know, that was like a bad idea. And you know why that's the way you think of it. It's kind of like, you're like, this is a good idea. was like a bad idea and you know why that's the way you think of it it's kind of like you're like this is a good idea this bad idea your attitude is like well let's find out yeah you know there is an answer to this and we you know we could speculate

or we could just do the find out and then we'll know for sure yeah and in almost every case you can't think your way to an answer like let's say you told you let's say you were always funny with your friends growing up and you're like thinking like, Oh, I'd be a great comedian. Like I could tell this, here's a joke. I could tell this. I know I'd be a great comedian. You won't actually know until you do it. Like, you know, there's such a huge difference between going, there's like a, a thousand X difference between going on stage and telling a joke to strangers and thinking of a joke in your shower. Like I have so many people that do that to me. I'm sure you have a million people with business stuff or whatever, but always with videos,

everyone's always like, I have this great idea for a video. And I'm like, yeah, yeah, you should do it. And they're like, no, no, for you. And I was like, why don't you do it? Like, you're like, well, I made an idea for you. It's like, okay, well, why don't you do it and then go make some others. And if they work out, then maybe we'll work together. But like, I'm just like, Oh, yeah. You know, I'm sure you've had this conversation. Like they'll say something like, oh, I don't have the equipment. And I'm like, the camera in your iPhone

is better than anything Martin Scorsese worked with for the first 40 years of his career. So like. So I'm a guy that's been making videos for the last 20 years. You're someone who's never made them. You're coming at me with what you have is idea for a sketch and I'm bringing

the talent, the crew and the editing. What exactly, why do I need you again? Like abundance of like video topics. Or, or, or it's like, people will also give you what they call constructive criticism. Like, you know, you know, maybe on your next video, you should do X, Y, or Z. And then that's another time you could say like, Hey, how about you just start doing all my videos for me? Because you know what you're doing.

Yeah. Yeah. Would you like a job doing them? Yeah. And it's like on comedy. Like if you've even been doing comedy for six months and then everyone else is telling you, you know, maybe you should do this. Like, Hey, I've been doing it for six months more than you'll ever do it in your entire life so just you want my theory on it's not this is not just for comedy but it's for a lot of things is i think that people's advice is useless but the fact that they didn't like something isn't useless so most of the time yeah that's a good point you know what i mean so people could say

like i don't like this and the reason is you're like, I'm going to stop you right there because you don't know the reason. But the fact that you don't like that may be valid. Like an audience doesn't like a joke and they're like, the reason I didn't like that joke is because you don't know why you didn't like it. The fact that you didn't like it is actually data. But you're just trying to make a reason for something that you don't know. Right. That's absolutely it. Like I remember when I was first starting out,

I would go to comedy with my girlfriend and like, I would use a joke and it would, sometimes it would totally kill, like it would destroy the room. And other times it would just die, like the worst death. And I would say, and I would look at the video, I would say, I delivered it the same, I think.

And so I would ask my girlfriend, like, what do you think? And she's like, maybe that joke's a little bit too risque. And I'd be like, no, that can't be it because it worked these other five times. It didn't work this one time. And she's like, no, I think it's too risky. So you're right. She's guessing.

Yeah, she's guessing. She's just guessing. You know, it's the same reason why, like, you might meet someone on a date or whatever. And you're like, hey, you should be with that person. You're like, I don't know. it's like maybe maybe i'm not attracted to them and they're like they're hot and you're like maybe you're like all they know is they didn't fucking get the connection and then after that you're making up reasons why for the most part yeah it's really true people need to make up a reason they need to connect what they're feeling

in their heart with what they're thinking yeah they're trying to intellectualize what they already know they felt and it's like maybe if someone's an expert, like I might, you know, I'm sure there's certain things that you are a little more in tune. You maybe can intellectualize some of your instincts, but a lot of times all that people are useful for as beta tests for whatever you're doing is whether or not they like it. And you'll, you know, the reasons, but yeah, like, like if you're playing, let's say you're learning tennis and you know, the ball, you keep serving the ball into the net. I'm willing to go to a coach. Who's an expert. Yeah. What am I doing wrong? And he's like, Oh, you know, you need to pull back your arm a little

bit further or whatever. Um, and that's why, so part of the skipping the line in comedy is like, I've had the benefit, just like you have right now, a benefit of a podcast. I had a podcast where I was able to get like every comedian on the podcast the first two years i was doing it right man you're like you did you did such and i wasn't here and i saw that because this is when i was in toronto but i know berg and dante and those guys and i remember watching and be like man fucking smart move for the way you did it yeah because then i'm sure i pissed some people off but then who gives a fuck yeah yeah you go go back to your mansion, they can suck a dick. Yeah.

It pissed a lot of people off. But what I would do is basically everything that happened to me the night before and on the stage, that's the questions I would ask at the podcast the next day. And I got like such great, you know, almost like virtual mentors, you know, out of 50 or so comedians. Yeah. And then you offered, you know, you offer the same thing to them in a million other areas. You know what I mean? Yeah. Like they get on the podcast. So like, I would have Aaron Berg on when his special released or, you know, Tom Papa when his book came out or Sebastian Maniscalco when his book came out. It's crazy. Big, huge guests. Yeah. Yeah. Big, huge guests. And like, I would, I learned so much, but still even learning that until you do it, it's just,

it doesn't count for much. You just have to, you have to do it a lot, but you have to experiment. So like, that's why this was an important experiment for me every time, you know, and you encounter this, I'm sure in New York city, like sometimes a famous comedian will show up and you're given the choice. Hey, do you want to go up before Tracy Morgan or after Tracy Morgan? And nine out of 10 comedians will say, Oh, put me up before. I don't want to go up after Tracy Morgan, but a hundred percent of the time I would say, I want to go up

after Tracy Morgan, after Bill Burr, after TJ Miller, after whoever. And cause it was just so much harder. And the audience was like, Tracy Morgan in particular, he like locks up the audience. He's got so much raw energy. And if you can go up after him and survive, that's a huge experiment that you just passed. And if you don't do it, you're back in the 10,000 with the 10,000 hour people, like just waiting for your time to pass instead of challenging yourself. Yeah. And a lot of times when you screw those up, which is the same with like investing or finance, anything, it's like what you screw up is you overshot what you think your best case scenario was like, you need to know the best case scenario and the worst case scenario going after

him. And then no, like, okay, I'm probably not going to murder that hard. Like I'm, this is what I want to do and then not overshoot it. So a lot of times overshooting it is where you end up with those big bombs yeah yeah like have you ever gone up after aaron berg yeah yeah i've known him for years because he's toronto dude oh yeah he's canadian guy so so i'm i love aaron we're like good friends and uh uh but aaron always goes hard too like he's one of those guys that like if if you're going up if you're up on the show and he's hosting and he thinks like you're good, he's the type of guy that likes to go and try to do like three minutes of like killing before you go up to sort of like, let you know, like, just so you know. And the funny thing is he's not like the most, he's not famous, like a Dave Chappelle or whoever, but he is the hardest guy to follow because he does such intense, vigorous crowd work. Yeah, crowd work's always hard to follow, yeah. Yeah, the audience is just locked.

Like, they don't want to just watch. They don't, you know, and I've followed him. No, he's such a killer. Yeah, I've followed him a dozen or more times, and they don't want to just watch some guy doing material after that. They've just been engaging with this guy who's, like. He's getting a second, a laugh every three seconds. And so, so, so a, they don't want to watch material B they want to be interacted with and see you're competing with someone who just got them to laugh every three seconds. Like he's got the world

record of getting people to laugh as fast as possible. So I kept trying to tweak my experience. I would always go after him and I kept trying to tweak my experience. I would always go after him. And I kept trying to tweak and tweak and tweak until finally, I think I figured it out. The last time I went after him, the first thing I said was, I'm going to do an imitate. Do you guys like impressions? And they would all say, yes, I'm going to do an impression of Aaron Berg going through customs in Saudi Arabia. And that worked. So I would do like a bad impression of Aaron Berg, but he's like,

so let's call it. What's your impression about Aaron Berg? It would just be horrible. It wouldn't even matter. But then they would. Yeah. And I would just start insulting everyone, but like also even worse because it's Saudi Arabia.

And it's like, I can't do it. I don't know. I can't do it. I don't know. I can't do it. But like even doing it, I think I even said, I'm going to do a bad impression of Aaron Burke. And they were like,

they buy into it. And then you clearly do a bad impression of him. But then that this finally, they like laughed like, because, oh yeah, that was a really bad impression of Aaron Burke. But now I've disconnected them from Aaron Burke.

And I was able to then just do material. And so that was the one, but it takes, I do a really bad impression of me, not of a guy that didn't pull his dick out. And then I go, ah, I fucked it up. That's funny. Do you do that? No. That'd be funny. What is your process when you're coming up with stuff? Cause like, I, I, I, I like how it's like these, these deeper truths, but it's not in that like, sort of like set up punchline kind of way. Yeah. It's kind of a mix of a lot of things, but, uh, I do both. I write like, um, when, when standups happening, I write two hours every

single day, uh, before noon. And then, and then that is a lot, you know, like, I don't, I don't do that. I should, I probably should do that. Yeah. I'm not doing it right now. I mean, it depends on where you're, you know, here I don't, I don't do that. I probably should do that. Yeah. I'm not doing it right now. I mean, it depends on where you're, you know, here's, here's a big one that I got to near the end when I started to really refine where I was at, I would do, I would, I would do my three sets a night and then I would take Sunday, Monday off and I wouldn't like write those days either. So I would kind of, um, you know, it's a thing where it's a lot of people kind of like are

operating 70% and they're like, I'm always not thinking. And I kind of said with everything that it was one of those things where like, yes, I'm going to take a hit on turning my brain off of stand up. And it's like even sometimes I'll be like, I would not be like, that'll be a good stand up joke. I won't do that. I go, I'm going to take a hit on losing, you know, jokes, losing ideas. But on the long run, it's going to be way better because I'm going to be this is focused. This is when it is. And it's going to allow me to do all the other things at the same time so that was

kind of like how i thought about it so wait so like let's say like what would you do like how would you find a topic and then okay so i have so this is pretty inside i i because i do always go i mean it is so like 2020 everyone talks about all this stuff but there's a part of me that's like uh like it's just cooler to be like, I don't know. I just fucking get up there, man. When in legit, when in reality, I fucking, no, no, anyone watching you. So could tell this is like hard to do what you do. I do a, um, uh, I have about six topics, so I can, okay.

You want to, I'll tell you what it is. So I have a, I have about eight topics that I talk about and sometimes they change. So if you watch my set, that's 45 minutes. I basically talk about eight different things. And then a lot of times I cycle back through them. And the reason for that a lot of times is when I'm doing a set, let's say I'm talking about like gay people for like five minutes or something. Right. If I, if it's two, if I get to two, three minutes in or race,

whatever it is, if I get to two, three minutes in, and I start to feel like I'm it's losing its luster, move on to the next topic, then round two, I pick up where I left off on that. So I kind of so I'm always like it's about my set will be about like so whether it's like men and women, you know, like a lot of times it's that relationships dating. I put those in three different categories, you know, 2020 stuff, like whether that be like progressive intersectionality, like gay people, you know, I talk a lot about that kind of stuff. Um, what the difference between gay people and straight people and shit like that race. Um, that's one religions and other sex, which is usually can fit into a lot, you know, a

lot of times these are two different categories, um, and then stories. So those are, those are basically the majority of what I talk about. And then sometimes I'll develop a category like for example, there was a while where I got obsessed with like the the Uh What do you call it like the body for the body positivity movement where it basically became a category where I I would For there sometimes you add an eighth category where like I literally i'm talking about that enough where it's one of my things So then I have all those categories in one document called new stuff.

And then I have all those categories in another document that's older stuff. So if I, when I'm first working on it, it's in the new category. And then when I move it to the next category and then when it's finished, I move it out of the thing altogether. And then on stage, when I'm doing my first show of the night,

I'm trying to do stuff that I've only thought of that day, second show and third show. So I kind of do it like that. So let's take body positivity. How do you take that topic? And then what's your first thing like that you think of? Like, oh, do you think of something that's hypocritical in that topic or? Yeah, exactly. It's always it's always something that's hypocritical like you know for example probably the one of the last things i was i was i was working on before is i was like obsessed with the idea that when a girl gets

really fat and stuff people call her brave so why when she loses weight we don't call her a coward oh yeah you know it's not a joke on its own but it's like you know that a little stem like that you know what i mean so that kind of stuff uh will spark something and then I'll get obsessed with it but again I haven't been doing this for so so so like for instance you you would you would talk you would mention someone who's like you know I have this friend um she she you know she was really honest about you know how she was 300 pounds and I really thought she was brave and then and then once she lost all the weight, uh, I was just disgusted with her. Like I hate hanging out with cowards and, or sometimes I might be able to get

there quicker by being like, you know, there's this large woman, very brave. Well, then she, she lost weight, like a coward. So it might be able to, you know, turn it into like a, but again, that was never enough. I only done that a few times, but, and then, uh, I added a new cat. Here's a, for example, I added a new category of me moving to America. So a lot of things I was examining that I was already saying through the lens of me being a Canadian in America. So some of the things that I was already saying, like I was, I was kind of saying that in America, you know, in America, I was talking a lot near the end about how Americans like they're so they don't realize that they're like they're like why would you ever move here like they don't realize that everyone wants to live here and it's kind of like a spoiled kid that moves to it you know his parents are that his people are like oh he's like my dad's the worst and they have like a pool and everyone wants to come over and they're like oh you don't get it you know your house is awesome it's like

it's not my dad's a Nazi you don't get it you know and that's kind of the gist of it and then i was kind of thinking about how which where i was getting to was the idea of you know it's like you go into and then you're like i'm gonna move if this happens i'm gonna move to another country that's like you being like i'm moving to chad's house and i'm staying there forever and you're like okay well ask chad's parents because i don't know if they like it's like when people are like i'm gonna move to canada that's like the rich kid being like i'm staying at stacy's house for the rest of my life and you're like okay but like that's a real person and that parents are gonna be like you can't walk in like I live here now and you're like well you don't but uh so those kind of things that ended up being

like everything I was looking in through the context of like you know I just moved here your country's insane so I was kind of whereas normally an American would say America's fucking awesome. And I got to be kind of like, listen, I'm not part of your, I'm not, I'm not an American saying America's awesome. I moved here because it's awesome. So I got to sort of say a lot of these points that people say in the context of not being, Hey, I'm not part of this. Like I'm not fucking interesting. Yeah. So you, I got to, you find a way to say things in a way that, uh, that you don't take responsibility a lot of times. Well, well, it's interesting because like a lot of comedy is about taking two just disconnected ideas and connecting the dots.

So like everything is about that. Yeah. Yeah. It's like, you know, the choose your, make your own category. Right. I fucking, that's why I, I was a video maker that was in a band, which I wasn't the best guy in a band and i wasn't the best video maker but i was the best guy making band videos yeah you know so i had a huge success with that but it is that i fucking i'm able to find like the perspective and two ideas that sort of come together and it's when those it's almost like your brain's searching for all these pattern recognitions and then bam something just hits and that's when those, it's almost like your brain's searching for all these pattern recognitions. And then, bam, something just hits. And that's when those like magical moments happen.

Right. So like in the body shaming thing, it's like the woman moving up and down in weight conflating with, well, if you call her brave here, you kind of have to call her a coward here. Like just, it's just kind of like, you know, the logic all makes sense. sense, but it's, it's, it's like Andrew Schultz has a joke, which I think is perfect like this, where he basically says, um, uh, of course, you know, you know, it's, it's horrible in many countries, what they do with women, but have you ever noticed that that's how they get the best food? Yeah. Yeah. Like no one ever says, Hey, let's go, let's go out for some Canadian today. Like, you know, or let's go out from some, some Swedish food. It's always like, ah, let's go, let's go out for some Canadian today. Like, you know, or let's go out from some, some Swedish food. It's always like, ah, let's go to the middle, middle Eastern restaurant or

Chinese restaurant. So, you know, it's kind of like inflating these two things into one, into one thing. Yeah, no, that's exactly what it is. And for me, I kind of always, um, find the, you, you find the thing you want to talk about, mix it with the thing that, you know, the original funny part you found. And then hopefully with enough, like working and writing something else comes and you're like, boom, that's the like missing connector piece that brings the whole thing together.

So like, what's an example of like the, the, your favorite joke there. You did that where it was like a boom. So all of a sudden, like you couldn't make it work. And then you unlocked it.

Okay. So let's say one thing that I've been talking about i was just talking about this yesterday because uh i can't say i had a joke where i said that um you know every religion hates gay people and loves hats so that was kind of the original thing was it's almost like i wanted i got really big on the idea that like islamophobia so that was another topic that i took off my list but i was like obsessed with it to the point where i literally was like, okay, I need to stop talking about like Islam. Cause I had like five, 10 minutes about it, but I became obsessed with the idea that you're not supposed to talk about that. Right. And it was very, and it was, it was just like one of the, I mean,

a million people have pointed this out, but it's like, you know, Islam is so great. And Islam is right about women was kind of the joke, you know? Um, I was like, how can I make fun of these other religions? And I just wanted to like these people don't want to make fun of Islam. But if I make fun of religion and put it in that basket, they have no choice but to accept it or they look like or they have to be a hypocrite. And it's so obvious. So I kind of was doing this thing about like every religion hates gay people and loves hats. And so that's like the point. But then, you know, I dicked around with that. And the joke came when I was like, you know, Sikhs have a hat and Jews have a hat.

And then I go, Asians wear the Jewish hat but wear them over their mouth. So that, you know, and I had a few other jokes like that. But the thing came when I, you know, that's like something that just comes to you. You know what I mean? My joke was that they hate gay people and love hats. And then I started thinking about different hats and I started thinking about different religions and I'm like, how do they connect? And it, and then it popped into my head of like the idea that maybe the, um, you know, the, the Jewish hat is also, it's like how the Asians wear their mouthpiece. So it's like, it's almost like you think about it enough and then a connection just happens, if that makes sense.

Yeah, yeah. Kind of like. What do you do with stories? You mentioned stories as a category. Like stories is something I've always kind of edged into because it's like how I do my public talks. But I used to tell stories and I kind of like got good at it. And now I don't tell stories, but I do tell,

I do tell jokes in the form of a story. So I might say, you know, I was at, let's say I told 10 stories or a story that had 10 of these, I would say. You know, like I just took an Uber here and the Uber driver farted in the cab and then he turned up the music. So that's like the punchline, like he's trying to cover the smell with the sound. And so there was only one premise and then three things. So I've told a story the same way I tell a joke,

but I never, every story I still tell, I try to have like still a punchline every, you know, I still try to tell it with the same amount of punchlines. I never do the like, yo, let's get real people. Like, you know, and I tell the long story. I never really do that. I don't see the purpose of it. Have you ever seen Chris DiStefano's 9-11 story? Yeah, it's amazing. Yeah. Yeah. That's a great, that's a great storytelling. And Dave

Chappelle, of course, is a great storyteller. Oh, he's the best. Yeah. But I'll tell you what, again, this is, I said, there's, there's certain things that like, no matter what, and the one thing that you're, it's like that never speak the Lord's name in vain. And I think Chappelle's amazing, but he was one of the guys that I've always said I didn't like. I never I don't like the fake story. It always drove me nuts. The he would tell these stories. The perfect one was he goes. I've had this argument with so many people on everyone. It's like every time I there's a few people that I a few opinions that I hold more than anything.

Like I could probably fucking say the KKK is good before I could say thatave chappelle's bad at comedy in terms of getting in fights with people but i would always say that i don't like the fake story so he would say you know i tell the story he goes i was on a plane and there's a terrorist there and he's on the plane and me and the other black guy and i go no you weren't that's not true like if dave chappelle was on a plane and a terrorist attacked it like we know that that was news and i don don't care that it happened, you know, but he has fake stories. He goes, I was on the bus and a homeless guy started jerking off and whatever. I don't care about that because it could have happened. And I don't care if you're telling me something that didn't happen and it could have,

because a lot of times you're saying, oh, this person said this. I don't care if they said it, but they might have. But Dave Chappelle is telling me a story that I know for a fact didn't happen. It's like if you start telling me a story that i know for a fact didn't happen it's like if he said if you start telling me this story and you go you know uh before that we did this set tonight there was an owl in the crowd and i was in the crowd and i'd be like okay i know that didn't happen so i know you weren't on the plane with the terrorist attack so it used to always drive me nuts and he's also i don't mind when people tell stories when they're not asking you

to believe it's true you know like sometimes people are telling you stories in the context of like yeah and then uh 10 000 women which or whatever and you know they're lying but he's telling you something that like no i honestly i couldn't make this shit up it actually happened like his his attitude is i'm telling you a real story that happened and i know for a fact it didn't and that fucking cognitive dissonance always fucking drew me crazy from a logical perspective. Yeah. I get that because also combined with a lot of those stories,

there's a little bit longer wait for the payoff. Like he takes his time getting to the payoff. And so I, I, it took me a long time to really appreciate him now in his last set of Netflix specials. I really enjoyed them. I think he's amazing.

Yeah. Yeah. It's always that thing when someone's overrated that you you always end up arguing against them because someone's like if you think someone's a nine and the whole world's shouting that they're a 10 before you know it you're arguing like well he does this wrong and this wrong and you're like i and you're like oh you don't like him i'm like i actually think he's a nine out of ten it's just i think that that he has like too much of a sanctimonialness to him yeah you know i have I kind of have a problem

sometimes though where I tell true stories and because my life is kind of, it's a little different than the average stand-up comedian who started young and stuff. I have these like really insane stories where I'm like crazy like life to draw from. Yeah. And so sometimes the audience

doesn't laugh because they don't even know they don't know what's happening. Oh yeah. Yeah. You, you could probably tell them stuff and they're like, yeah, right. Like, like, like if I'm talking about how, like, I'm in a poker tournament and out of the corner of my eye, I see Bill Clinton hitting, hitting on my wife. People are, they don't, they detach right there because like, how could that possibly have happened? Like, no, I know. Yeah.

Really ham that up with like, I swear this is i know yeah you don't really ham that up with like i swear this is true like you don't get any extra credit for like the crazy events that really happened in your life yeah right which is why i wonder like you know it's it's sort of the same though with all these with like like take kevin hart as an example kevin hart probably has like an insane life but he can't really talk about it on stage because people you know he probably meets like the biggest celebrities in the world he likes talking about the you know he has the classic hollywood story which is you know me and i went out with these three famous people and they have more money than me so it's like i'm relatable because i'm actually the i couldn't afford the things and they kept

buying like he gets to sort of put himself he's like uh he gets to play the common man now because he's with rich people and he's not rich enough he does that one a lot yeah he put he puts himself with more famous people than him to self-depreciate himself to make him look like a loser yeah and louis ck once um when he started really breaking out uh and he was clearly like well to do he he he had this joke uh oh i was flying in first class you know i got some upgrade uh fuck it i'm i'm better than you like for the next yeah everything i do is a better version of what you do it's but don't worry it's only in the last like two more years and then it's over which he turned out to be accurate about but and then uh that was a big shift for me forever i was like when i first started i was kind of doing the opposite took me a while to get to the point where I

Was like, oh right like that's not how I operate in real life. I shouldn't operate on stage So I kind of had the attitude of like yeah, just so you know, i'm better than you guys I don't know. I listen. I don't know what to tell you It just is what it is like i've kind of that not even saying that but that was just my like Energy as opposed to like oh i'm such a loser can you guys please like me because it wasn't working you know so it's a trial and error thing but louis c's case still had to balance it with like don't worry i'm gonna lose it all in two years like he still had to make sure well that works with his persona it was like yeah we could tell his next jokes of like listen i'm gonna do an hour

of how much of a pathetic loser i am that's not gonna work unless i kind of give some context to that yeah it's like it's like ellen deeneres in her special Relatable. She basically just owns it how rich she is and she makes fun of it immediately in the beginning. And then she's able to just sort of calm down and deal with- No, you got to address it for sure. Or else like, what are we doing? Yeah. So it's interesting to analyze all this stuff. I'm constantly thinking about these things and I'm, and I'm always trying to get closer to who I am in real life. And that's the challenge. Right.

What do you mean? And that's just for standup for everything. You're always trying to like get out. Cause you know, actually I was thinking about this in the context of you the other couple of days where a lot of times when you're thinking about, you know, your authentic self,

you're like, is this my authentic self? Or you're like, I don't want to do that. And you're thinking about, you know, your authentic self, you're like, is this my authentic self? Or you're like, I don't want to do that. And you're like, well, don't I? Or am I telling myself I don't want to do it? Like, which one's real? Yeah, no, it's interesting. So because I've been writing for so many more years than I've been doing standup, it's like almost a rule for me. I have to reveal in the writing. And I, and not only that in most cases, I don't let myself hit publish unless I'm afraid of what people will think of me after they read this. So I always try to push the edge on what I'm revealing, not to be a sensationalist, but just to be like more and more honest about who I really am and authentic. And, you know,

I never want to be like, you know, self-help guy or I never want to be an expert. I just want to tell- What do you think of the term lifestyle design? Did you like that when that came out? Because it feels like to me, when lifestyle design came out, it was like you and four other people kind of come to mind.

Yeah, but I don't think I ever liked it because I sort of think life's really hard no matter what. And like, you know, this is related. So I told you a little while ago, Steven Spielberg's office called me when I was just living from Airbnb to Airbnb and they wanted to do. That's amazing that you're kind of like giving, you know, people are looking to you for advice and you're like living out of a suitcase. It's like the classic. Yeah, totally out of a suitcase. That should be like, that's what you think of like a movie about a guy kind of running this big, you know.

Well, that was Spielberg's point is that this is a movie or a TV series. And so I pitched, they wanted ideas from me. So I pitched this idea. It was called Gurus Gone Wild. And it was all these like self-help gurus. And it was all the usual suspects that you would imagine. And they're all kind of screwed up. Like they're all, they're not, I don't want to say they lie and just put up, you know,

some of them do, but not all of them, but they're, but all a hundred percent of them are just like everyone else. They're just screwed up in most parts of their life. And, and we would get together and we wouldn't talk about like, Hey, how cold was your shower today? Well, my shower was like negative 40 degrees and they stayed there. We'd talk about like their relationship troubles

or like, oh, I'm broke or this or that. And like, that would be the average, like, oh, you know, I just got like syphilis and I gotta figure out what to do. And so these people would have like these, it was really- That's sort of the difference between the, like your, the your version versus like the Gary V, which is like,

I'm just killing it like 24 seven. Yeah. And like, and like Gary's a great guy, but he, he, yeah, I think he gets that his, his audience demands that from him. So there's also, he's not giving practical advice as much as he's giving like inspiration. Yeah. And, and, and, and and and and he he doesn't reveal the hype man yeah he he doesn't really reveal what's going on with his life like you never have a sense of who who he is his advice by the way is usually pretty good but you never get a sense of who he is

and with a lot of these people though it's like do they really live this way or do they not live this way and so i wanted to do this show guru gurus gone wild to show how they really live yeah i thought it'd be hilarious but spielberg didn't want that he wanted you know um he just wanted some guy traveling around in an airbnb all the time and uh but but it i never really liked the lifestyle design because it's just really hard like most of the time it's like everybody else, like a day has good points and bad points. Like I was on Lewis house podcast a few weeks ago and Lewis houses, you know, kind of a self-help guy. And, and, um, and he asked like, when's the last time you cried? And I said, uh, you know, I thought I was like, Oh, you know, probably yesterday.

And he's like, really? And like, he just didn't believe I was like saying that. And Lewis is a great guy. He's a good friend. But, you know, just being not like radical honesty, but just being authentic honesty, I think is really important. And then you realize no one's a guru, no one's an expert. And I think that's kind of been my whole point through this is that everyone's got like this different path that they follow and and most of the time your your path is going to just screw up which is why the notion of experiments is so important like nobody nobody's got their shit together that's we're all just going to die and be miserable at it and uh so so i don't think i like i don't like the lifestyle design or life hacks or things like that like i do do have to me what it was. I mean, what I think if I was just still in my opinion, like what you do,

it's almost like just telling people that it's almost not selling, but explaining that there's a different way to like, think about things. You know, there's a different way to like look at these problems and play the game and all that sort of stuff. Right. And because I was a writer from the beginning, I was able to tell the story. This is what I did. So if you, if you, the reader don't want to do it, that's fine. This is a way I did it. And you know, you could try it or not try it, or that you could say, this is ridiculous ridiculous i really don't like this guy which is off which is often a response and you know that's just it like i've had i've had all sorts of issues

so you know i've gotten broke repeatedly i've been divorced twice i've been started and failed like tons of businesses you know i'm sure when i started comedy a lot of people thought and a lot of people thought like oh he's just bought a comedy club so he could go on the stage, which was true. Yeah. That's what I said. And I was like, I, I, I, you know, I I've heard half and half, like some people are like James is the man. And then some people are like, you know, probably just resent like with the way you did it or whatever. And you're like, it's like, yeah, that's the way you, that's exactly what you should have done. What do you want? This guy's guy's like you know super like millionaire he's been successful a million times he's got a huge podcast you want him to go to fucking open mic

what would you rather him do go to all the other clubs and steal your spots like at least he's doing it at one club that he owns yeah and and by the way i've now well it's oh you can never really say it about yourself but to some extent now five years later i've yeah you're good some of it so so it's like they could just all go fuck themselves but that was my attitude from the beginning like yeah you know you know everybody's gonna do their own path like and most of the well you kind of this is you sort of did and i don't know if this is intentional but it seems like in my life all of the four hotots of like things that keep being like culturally significant.

Like there was that sort of like wave of Silicon Valley guys that sort of turned into authors and stuff like that. You're a part of that. Then it sort of shifted to where it was like almost politically influenced where it was the Jordan Peterson's and the Rogan's of the world. And it was almost like the message had to almost be infused with politics a little bit to some degree and everyone's picking their sides. And then it kind of became that that got taken over by comedians.

And it feels like you were kind of a Cardinal part of all those waves. No, it's, it's true. And I think, and it was, was that intentional? Do you think like that? No, it was totally by accident. Like, and I think, I think in some cases I was a little bit ahead. And in some cases I was a little bit behind, but like comedy, I think is the only place now where you like, like, I think, and I was just so interested in comedy. I felt like, you know what? I don't really care about anything else. I don't want to be a Jordan Peterson or whoever is influential. But now it turns out that the comedians

are the only ones who can speak. Like Jordan Peterson can't speak. Like the Ben Shapiros, Jordan Peterson. I don't know who's the intellectuals on each side. I don't really follow. But like, you can't, they're gone because they've lost their ex. You know,

they can speak on their little thing, but they can't be part of normal society. Right. Whereas like comedians, I think could just say, Hey, it was just a joke. Like they're like,

they got a pass. And, and I do think like, if you listen to it, as long as you don't, you know what the difference is? As long as you don't really declare do think like, if you listen to it, as long as you don't, you know what the difference is, as long as you don't really, uh, declare yourself as like, if you make yourself like I'm the Trump comedian, which I agree with, because as soon as you're like,

I'm on a team, you have a little bit removed yourself from the truth teller arena. If you're going to say like, Hey, I'm part of this team. What are your opinions? Well, just, just check our team's mandate statement. that's my opinions then you know at that point you have removed yourself from the opinions but there has been comedians that like got all their shit canceled just because they like trump and shit like sam hyde and people like that so but look at like tim dylan like it's really hard to figure out where tim dylan stands in anything right he's such a genius at finding like these really unique perspectives

on every world event and he ends up is he like trashing all the democrats who knows man if tim dylan had a big tv show right now i don't know maybe he you know he might have rode the gay thing a little bit too but like it's hard to say i mean he's an exam he's you know what he's a good experiment because that's you know and i put myself like somewhat in that category it's like to be you know maybe schultz like it's gonna be interesting to see what happens with these people like does tim dylan fucking blow up and and then they're like it's one of those things where they can't do anything this like that wave of people is going to determine what happens next and if like if everyone tries to cancel them you can't you're like well i guess

canceling's done now because we're shooting fucking arrows with stickies on them instead. You know, these arrows don't do anything. What's the point of it? Yeah, because I can't imagine like that experiment is. I'm just saying that experiment to what happens with him isn't over almost, you know? Yeah, I can't even imagine because Tim's so Tim's got a very unique kind of intelligence where he's able to connect these dots in such a weird way where everything becomes a conspiracy in the world. Yeah, that's his shadowy place. Yeah, that's his perspective of how he sees everything through that lens.

Yeah. And he aims it at everyone, though. Like everybody. You can't tell. Is he for Bernie Sanders or is he for Donald Trump or is he like against Bill Gates or he likes Bill Gates at his best was like you know some years I voted for a Democrat and some years I voted for Republican or whatever I vote for the person and you know maybe that was him playing the field but I bet you Howard Stern now would say no I'm Democrat every time 100% because

you started I think you started playing the game, right? So if you're thinking for yourself, like how could you possibly have all of the opinions of one side? It'd be insane. Yeah, that's always my point is that like, just because I believe one thing doesn't mean I have to subscribe to the entire menu of things, which is now required. Which is now required. Have you ever had any, tried to get canceled stuff? Because, you know, some of the,

have you ever tried to do like a talk or something and someone's been like, just so you know, this guy, you know? Yeah. Many times, like one time, uh, one time I took my daughter to, um, it was her birthday. Yeah. Almost. But I took, I took my daughter to a, it was her birthday. I took her to a, um, what's it like a fashion show or is a runway and everything. And we were supposed to go to the show. We had tickets, but they didn't have our name at the door. So we said, I said, please, it's her birthday. Can you let us in? They let us in. And then she wanted to sit. I wanted her to sit in the front row so she could see. So I asked people like, please, can she sit in the front row?

And then later we went to her spin the ping ping pong place. And there was a party, Bank of America had closed it down and they were having a party. And I said, please, can we just walk around for a few minutes and then we'll leave? But we ended up playing. They were all getting drunk, all the people at the party. So we ended up picking up some rackets and playing for an hour. And then they asked us to leave. And I said, OK, thanks. And then so I wrote about that one little story where she, you know, I'm just telling her this very innocent story. I'm teaching like my 10 year old. It was her 10th birthday. I'm teaching her how to say please and thank you and stuff like that. And then someone wrote this article where it was like hideous. It was like she wrote. Imagine at the end of every sentence in James's article, he said, because I'm white.

James's article, he said, because I'm white. And so, and so like, then people actually thought that is what I said in my article. And she got like millions of views on her article and people were trashing me. People were like, it was all over Facebook, Twitter. People were like, I'm going to like, you know, people I didn't know were like. Also another funny thing, James, even just to like add to the thing. Cause the idea is her saying that like, you were able to do all these things but because you're white you're also be like i'm also like a renowned figure about on negotiation like how many how many you're like essentially an expert on negotiation so it's not that crazy that you're able to negotiate things right i have negotiation privilege which gets me anywhere that's my whole

point and uh uh but like you know but and i but there was people i never even encountered this before like and i had encountered hate before but this was like the biggest at that time like i would just see i was you were just tagged in a post on facebook and so i would look and like i didn't know anybody and some guy was like saying boy if I ever run into that guy I'm just gonna like repeatedly anally rape him and like I'm like what is going on here and like people would just would just like writing me emails like I'm gonna kill you and I didn't even just because you said you have white privilege yeah and and so I called up Tucker Max who's he's dealt with his own share I forgot that you're kind of yeah yeah. Tucker Max is, cause I know Ryan, he's Ryan holiday was who's your boy who did all his things. Right.

But he was the one that did the abortion. They bought the abortion wing and named it after him. Yeah. Yeah. So, so, and Tucker's a super funny guy. And, and, you know, it's interesting. He's super funny in his writing. He doesn't, and he likes standup, but he doesn't understand. Like, he's like, James, why are you doing standup? We all know you're funny why are you doing stand-up he doesn't know there's a difference in the art form but anyway i called tucker and of course he always has the right instinct he's like yeah just lean into it just say you have white privilege and

that's why you're able to get in everywhere just like embrace it but i couldn't quite do it and it didn't feel right yeah like so so I felt the hate and it, you know, it all blows over. Like my, my whole philosophy is that if you don't respond at all, it blows over in about 48 hours. It took a little longer unless they take your job and all that stuff. But yeah. And, and they were trying to like, they, it was an issue. Unfortunately, I didn't have a job at the time, but you, but I had an audience I was building and I wanted sales of my books and I was just launching a podcast. And, you know, so I've encountered a couple of things like that. But, you know, and usually people usually like usually Democrats think I'm a Republican and Republicans think I'm a Democrat. So that sometimes veers into

hate. So so I deal with that occasionally. I think they call that a free thinker, right? Yeah. And I'm like, I don't even, I kind of have to say almost on a regular basis these days, I like honestly don't give a shit. Like we have two 75-year-old alleged rapists running for president. Like there's nobody to vote for. So what are you going to say?

Like nobody could disagree with me. You know what? I've been making me laugh. Like just a little thing that's been making me laugh of all the people throwing around their vote pmp will be like hey if the democrats don't um you know clean up the rack i might have to change my vote this year and it's like who gives a shit who you vote for like yeah the equivalent of like being like i have one cent that i'm donating to charity if anyone would like to petition uh i thought they were making some pretty good strides at this charity, but if you have a better offer, like who gives a fuck who you vote for?

Yeah. Or, or then there's the people who say, you know, cause a lot of people know I don't, I don't vote. And they, yeah, there's people who say, if you don't vote, then you don't have a right to talk about politics or voting or whatever. And I'm like, you know, and I'm like, well, okay. Why don't you just then take over all my social media platforms and you do what you do because you obviously have the right to talk about these things and I don't. So it's just ridiculous. Like voting, like I, you know, by having a podcast, by virtually having a podcast, it's as if you have like a million votes, not one vote.

I know. You have a whole bunch of people you could talk to about like my stupid vote yeah and like new york city also like i'm not gonna pretend that you're playing pretend you're like i know it doesn't matter i know that the idea is you want me to think it matters but it doesn't and i'm not gonna play this game where i lie about stuff yeah and and and and right And then there's, again, there's the whole virtue signaling, which has now reached like a level beyond imagination. So I would imagine like,

what if virtual signaling has become so much in the forefront this past few weeks? What if that was one of your issues? How would you tackle that as a joke? I'm just curious. If what, what's the issue? The one- Virtue signaling, just the idea of it. Let's say you're annoyed that people

who you know don't give a shit put up a black box. I have different things. A lot of times I have points and then I have the joke. Something like that would be something that I feel like would probably be too covered. If I wanted to make the point, something I might do was pick an audience member and be like, this guy didn't even put up the black box, get them, like move on, you know? So it's, it's just as simple as that. Like, obviously I think that anyone getting mad at, you know, someone for putting up the black box is retarded, but I wouldn't, I wouldn't, it would be hard for me to like, I never do the, like these people telling us what to do.

I do that in my podcast podcast i'm kind of like overt with my opinions but as far as on stage i would probably make that in a in a jokey manner like that just sort of say it like in various absolutely in one all right so let's say like like how nancy pelosi and all the democrats they were wearing the the kente cloth yeah from ghana and they they here's a hypocrisy they don't realize that is worn specifically by the Ashanti tribe. My wife's from, I lived in Ghana. So specifically worn by the tribe that actually sold all the slaves to the U S like they're not the same as African Americans are the ones who sold the

ancestors to the U S. So like, that was the hypocrisy in that. Like, is there any, I would say that I got us, I got a dick enlargement in solidarity from Africa, but then I couldn't fit. And then, uh, you know, to make up for it, when things got out of hand the other way, then I got a dick reduction in solidarity with China. That's great. All right. That's good. So you have like a bunch of, it's almost like you have a bunch of areas you can conflate to the other

areas. Yeah. It's always about that. Yeah. But I think that with those sort of things, it's always like if it's some – depending on how unique my point is and how treaded the ground is, you know what I mean? If it's a very unique point, I think that I might be a bit more overt with it. But if I think it's like a little more covered, I think I'll try to disguise that in like a one sentence somewhere else. Interesting. Yeah. Yeah. I guess I do that a little with the college stuff with, uh, uh, with other stuff. So, uh, it's good. It's always a

little technique to, again, so many people, you know, Bill Burr would be like, if he was saying gay people are annoying, right. It'd be like, come on, gay people are annoying. Okay. Come on. You're going to say it's not a little bit annoying when someone comes in like or whatever i would say okay you know how gay people are like a little bit annoying or whatever so that's what i would say i would assume you agree with me and i move on right so you got you got like that unreliable narrator thing what i keep calling it there it is a good way to describe it that's really funny yeah because then people like buy into it like oh he's kind of speaking something that they've thought. Well, that's what I did in my old TV show.

And there was a lot of people that have kind of done a version of this, but I love it. Is that you're like, I would say, and even though he was super annoying, the thing is, yeah, you're right. They do that in Arrested Development or whatever. Yeah. So, yeah, you get because you're the narrator, you say very like matter of factly. I mean, that's what my satire is, what I'm doing too. But yeah, you're saying very matter of factly. And even, but you can say something so aggressive

and it's just a matter, like, even though, you know, Cheryl was a stupid fat bitch, I chose to listen to her. The more aggressive it is in that context, the funnier it kind of is. Yeah, like, well, that's the thing, like I have with my five kids, I'm able to really just lean into just eviscerating them and people are shocked. I love it. I've seen you do a couple of good ones. Like people get, get shocked,

but it took a while. Like at first I remember one time, like early on, I was, I, I basically called my daughter, daughter a whore and I got heckled because I wasn't really delivering it right. Like I wasn't selling it as well as I could. So people, you know, my daughter's a whore and then everyone gets mad. Be like, sorry, sex worker, sex worker. You're actually saying it. Yeah. That's really good. I got to use that. That's funny. I gotta, I gotta think of that way a little bit more because there's like a spectrum. What you did there was like you just you kind of like you double down, right? Yeah, you double down, but you're mad at something and you act like they're mad at something different.

Yeah. So it's almost like reverse conflating. You're like these two concepts and you're trying to pull it apart, but not as a part. You think you pulled it apart enough, but yeah, reliable. It's not as far enough as they needed trying to pull it apart but not as a part and you think you pulled it apart enough but yeah reliable it's not as far enough as they needed you to pull it apart so they think that's funny you could by the way you could also lose people that way but you don't want them anyway like yeah my guess is with your jokes let's say you had 100 people in the audience and you do these jokes my guess is there's two or three who are like uh i don't think i like where this is going but everybody else gets it and that's kind or three who are like, I don't think I like where this is going, but everybody else gets it.

And that's kind of what you want. Like if everybody went along on the ride with you, I think it probably. A lot of times I'll fucking, I'll throw in like little things just for the, the opposite, like just for four people. I had a joke where I was literally at some point I was saying,

you know, I, you know, and I just keep my money where your girlfriend in the government can't get it. Taxation is theft. Moving on. Like I just like I would kind of like slip in a thing where if like you're a fucking like a, you know, a dirty libertarian dude, you'd be like, you know, this guy rules. He's speaking to us. Yeah. Yeah. No, I guess I guess I try to go both straddle that as well. But it's a hard skill. Initially, I wasn't able to do it.

And I would cause me it would cause me problems i feel like for every good point you really want to say i can have three jokes so it's like if i have three killer jokes i get to say one point and then in an hour i got to say like 130 really good points hopefully like a hundred about a hundred times in watching my set you'd be like oh good point you know so i hope i get like a hundred good points and then i'll every, you know, three for per point. Also what you do reminds me of like Bonnie McFarlane. She always makes sure she's really funny.

She's super funny and she's a great writer and she, she makes sure that the premise is funny. So even if it's just the premise is funny and you kind of like, or having a hard time with the punchline, it's still somehow working with the audience. Yeah. So I think that's an important thing. Yeah, dude. Okay.

So, dude, thanks so much for coming on here. No, let's do this again. This is great. Before we wrap up, though, I wanted to ask you like two just specific questions. Sure. Okay. So because you have the inside scoop and you know all these guys, the people like businesses in Silicon Valley moving out of liberal cities to move to other places,

is that bullshit or is that lip service? Or do you think a lot of people are actually going to move out of places like New York and LA because of all this opening up and the regulation, the Elon Musk of the world? Do you think that's going to happen or is that lip service?

Absolutely, it's going to happen. It's already happened. It's actually already happened. So, I mean, for instance, most people I know in New York left New York at the beginning of the pandemic. And I don't know if they're ever coming back and Silicon Valley, you know, you'll get Twitter and Facebook and even Google Twitter and Facebook specifically has have announced work from home programs for anybody who wants to work from home.

And I think Twitter, it's going to be mandatory. Uh, Google has announced partial. And so I think Twitter, it's going to be mandatory. Google has announced partial. And so I think what's going to happen is second tier cities like Austin, you could say is one. But, you know, St. Louis, Miami, which is not quite second city, but let's say Florida is a second tier state. Every second tier city is going to explode. And New York, L.A., San Francisco, Chicago. Can you predict that in like the next five years? Next six months. Oh, fuck.

Because it might not be bad for artists because what's going to happen is like take New York City. New York City. So are they fucking up? Are these governors like just signing the death warrant to their countries with their stupid policies? Oh, yeah. New York City. New York City. So are these, are they fucking up? Are these governors like just signing the death warrant

to their countries with their stupid policies? Oh yeah, New York City. New York State was probably the worst because think about it. They're fucking up, right? Yeah, like if you walk around New York City right now, of course every restaurant is closed, but I'm sure about 20%, maybe a little higher.

Let's say 20%. 20% of the restaurants you pass right now are not just closed, they're for rent rent. I noticed just walking around my area, which was kind of the best for not people leaving. A lot of these places are no longer just closed. They're for rent. And you can't just, if you're the owner of the building, you can't replace that rent with another store. It's a kitchen and it's a restaurant. You have to put a pizza restaurant into it. And then WeWork is going to certainly go out of business.

So if you're an office building in New York City and WeWork was renting for the next six years eight floors in your building, they're just going to disappear. So you're going to have all these- And you think the work from home stuff, that was my next question. Do you think like all the, you know, Facebook announced another year of working from home. Is that going to be the norm moving forward

in your opinion? Yeah. Or at least it's going to be an acceptable norm. So if, if, if someone, so like, let's say I always used to do my podcast in person, but now if someone said to me, Hey, I only go on podcasts remote, I have to accept that and be cool with it. Whereas before I might not have been like, I don't really do that. It's a little weird. Yeah. So, so, so, but now though, it's like a normal thing. So there is literally a new normal for, for work and meetings and podcasts and events. And so you don't like, for instance, I'm working with a Silicon Valley programmer right now.

He's he could be anywhere and I could be anywhere, but we're working together on a project and it doesn't,, the whole Silicon Valley thing. So that is definitely happening. And New York and San Francisco in particular, the commercial real estate market has to collapse because the restaurants are, let's say if it's 20% now, it's going to be 40% in a few months. 40% of the restaurants in New York State and New York City are going to go out of business. And the landlords need the money. Like they have loans to pay back.

So commercial real estate is going to have a hard collapse. Like not even a soft one. It's just going to be, I'm scared about it. It's going to be devastation. WeWork, they were depending on that rent from WeWork. That is just out of business. So if you were them, you'd be like, guys, we need to change something right now,

but they're not going to. They're going to fucking ride this. They dug their heels in way too deep. It's too politicized. They're going to ride this to the ground, and that's that. Yeah, there's no way they can. Like, they're screwed.

There's no way they can. Because nobody is going to wake up tomorrow and say, man, finally I can achieve my dream of going to New York City and opening up a pizza restaurant. Like no one's going to do that because you might get closed down in October. There's no one to trust that you're not going to get closed down, so you're not going to commit to the rent.

Do you think this would be a good time to buy property, like to buy housing real estate now that it's all gone down? I think in New York City, I would wait. And in places like Florida, it's already too late. Like Florida, the real estate agents, they don't even have to work for the rest of the year. Like it's done. Like everybody already paid up. Toronto and Toronto where I'm from, it just went down like 15%, like the condos, which were a little high. And I was like, Oh, this is, yeah, that, that might be, but it might, but the thing is what's going to happen when commercial real estate

gets hit in Toronto, probably residential will get hit a little bit more. So it might even be again. Yeah. Yeah. Cause like New York city, I can't imagine. Everyone's moving out to the cities in the next little bit. You know, why, why live in the city if you don't have to work there? Yeah. Like even right now, like I've lived in New York city forever. And right now, just a week ago, I rented a place in Florida and I'm going back and forth. But when my rent is up in New York City, I'll probably renew or maybe I'll just stay in Airbnbs. But I don't know if I'm going to value the real estate the same way I normally would. Like New York City, you stay in for the business opportunities, for the culture, for the arts

and so on. But all those things are gone. Like the restaurants are going to be gone. You know, Broadway is not going to open up. They've already said there's not going to be big events and the business opportunities are all, everybody moved out and the commercial real estate's going down. So I think what's going to happen- Disaster is what you're describing. It's a disaster. But what will happen in the long run is what happened, let's say 40 years ago,

which is that New York City eventually will be a great haven for artists because you still need collaboration face to face for artists. And I mean, that's why, yeah, like I moved here is to be part of the cultural context that matters. Yeah. And like it might that might have a dip, but it's not as harsh as the business dip. It's not as harsh as the restaurant dip. It'll it'll still dip because how many comedy clubs will stay in business? For instance, some of them will go out of business and no one will start new ones. But eventually it'll come back because the prices will be right. Rent will go down. Commercial real estate will go down.

Storefront space. And there's still a lot of capital in this country for people to invest when it's right. Absolutely. But the short term, the second tier cities. And by the way, I have no skin in the game either way. I don't own any of these things. But like the second tier cities and particularly in the states that don't have state taxes, those are going to like boom. Like I like Florida again is already too late to Austin's probably already. It's almost like a little mini Atlas shruggy sort of thing going on, right? Where they they kind of bullied everyone and they're like, all right, well, we're moving to these other states. Yeah, well, now they bullied everyone. Everyone moved out.

And then you have the states saying, hey, can you, by the way, can you give us $200 billion so we can survive? And the federal government's like, no. And for me as a voter, say, or a non-voter, I don't like the idea even like why take from one crime syndicate, give to another crime syndicate. Like it's not fair. So they're just going to have to survive. So I do think there's going to be this dip in all the major cities. But, you know, eventually everything kind of finds, you know, the big difference. Everybody says, oh, but New York City always survives, which is true. I lived I was at the World Trade Center on 9-11. I lived on Wall Street during the

financial crisis and I was optimistic. New York City always survives. But now the one thing that's different is bandwidth. So now we have the bandwidth to do this, for instance, we're talking over Zoom and the bandwidth didn't exist even five years ago for us to do this like this. So bandwidth is the main thing that's different. And that means you don't have to, like I was talking to my editor at the publishing company. She's been working at home this whole time. And she says, you know what? Just as productive.

Everybody on my team is just as productive. Save an hour a day commuting. Yeah. So life is better, actually. Other than the simmering fear and chaos that has settled over all of society, everybody's actual lifestyle, if they ignored social media and the news is actually better. Right. A hundred percent. Okay. So there you go. That's the exactly what I described the cynical, but optimistic. Yeah. I, you know, everyone's doing everything wrong,

but like, ah, it's going to be fine. like right like this is actually the most pessimistic i've ever been really and i'm still optimistic but i am and you've been you know if you want to check out james's podcast too he has like awesome uh you did an awesome podcast about like how there's opportunity in this and what it's a good time to start and this is a great time to start something, you know, and so there's always opportunity and chaos. Yeah, no, there's tons of opportunities right now. It's just not the typical ones. And it's not too late either. Like nothing's too late because we're just at kind of an inning zero of this new period in our lives.

And the thing is, the one thing that's scary now, which is why I'm a little pessimistic, is there's a lot more uncertainty than there ever was before. Although in general, when I went to the protests, actually, I got optimistic like, Oh, everybody was telling me that they were never going to go back to restaurants again. But, but on an, on, on a dime, 50,000 people gathered at Washington square park. That actually gave me some optimism that me too. It literally did force the hand a little bit of this whole thing. That's what, you know, we, me and my boys were talking about that,

but it's like this forced the hand of the government because they, they could have, they could have said like for the next two months, like, Oh, we'll try out experiments. And now it's like, okay, here's the experiment it's done. Yeah. I got bullied into it. So that was. So that did give me a little bit more confidence about comedy clubs, actually. Because I was thinking, like, who's going to want to go to some, like, dirty comedy club and be socially distanced? The minute you tell them it's fine, they will go.

Yeah. I do think that's true. Like, when we did the show, I don't know how it was. Was it crowded when you did the show? It was the test. So, I don't know. I mean, I don't know if you're, like, how in the loop you are with what's going on right now. But basically, the idea is, so we did a little show at James's club.

But what's happening is they're going to start like some premium members, five, ten, ten people a week. Kind of this like underground thing. So this one only had like four audience members. And it was kind of just like it was more about like, let's meet up, have some drinks and everyone will hang, you know, hang out. We'll do a set. And then it's kind of like now let's actually try to do this like a couple of times a week. So from the sounds of it, I don't know how much I'm supposed to be talking about it on a podcast or whatever. That's okay. I'm the owner.

Well, I'll tell you what the plan is to do it Monday, Wednesday, Fridays, to do like 10 to 15, you you know people from your premium list or whatever they'd come in and they're allowed to watch and they separate them and the comics that are like allegedly like headliners and guest spots or check spots are going to do go-to spots and then um the outdoor show is running it yeah yeah and the outdoor show was was great that we did so uh like there were people who showed up for that So I'm a little more optimistic about comedy Well, yeah, if you're listening Come illegally check out James' club every day

Monday, Wednesday, Friday Yeah, stand up New York Well, you know, man I hope when you come back Hopefully you come check out one of them And we'll do a show together at some point Oh, yeah, I'll be back in about a week So I'm going to go back and forth pretty regularly

And I won't miss I'll always show up at stand up New York so yeah I know I miss seeing everyone there that was one of the most things when I went there and I saw a bunch of comics I was like oh this is way better than what I've been hanging out with one person at a time and actually just hanging out with a big group of people and talking shit and I was like this kicks ass I miss it yeah

no that's how I felt the Sunday before I was like there was Aaron Berg Brian McFadden was the MC It was just like A reunion of people So cool Wow this has been Fucking awesome Because as soon as

I started this podcast I was like Oh I hope James would do it That would be one of the First people so Been watching you forever So check out The James Altucher show

And really appreciate it I hope you see you soon buddy Alright man I'll see you I'll see you next time