The Breakdown - As the US Seizes $3.6B in BTC, a Frontline Story From the 2016 Bitfinex Hack, With Zane Tackett

Starting point is 00:00:00 And I was like, all right, where are we at? How much did we lose? Like, how bad is this? And he was like, yeah, 119,756 Bitcoin and just, oh, man. Yeah, it just shook my world. Welcome back to The Breakdown with me, NLW. It's a daily podcast on macro, Bitcoin, and the big picture power shifts remaking our world. The breakdown is sponsored by nexus.com, Arculus, and FTX,

Starting point is 00:00:28 and produced and distributed by CoinDesk. What's going on, guys? It is Wednesday, February 9th, and today we are talking about this crazy court case. The U.S. government has seized $3.6 billion worth of Bitcoin connected to the 2016 BitFinex hack, and it's all everyone is talking about. Today we're going to have a conversation with someone who is in a first-person position to see that all go down back in the day. But first, if you were enjoying the breakdown, please subscribe, rate and review the show, and then go check out our Breakers Discord. It's the place where all the conversation about the show happens, and you can find the link in

Starting point is 00:01:10 the show notes or go to bit.com slash breakdown pod. Also, a disclosure. In addition to them being a sponsor of the show, I also work with FTX. And one more thing before we get into today's crazy show, this week I am thrilled to have an extra special sponsor in Meld. If you've ever wondered how the rich are able to spend their money and still stay rich, it's because they borrow against their assets. Meld is creating a protocol that can be used by anyone, and which offers this exact service, but in a decentralized way. Users of Meld's protocol will be able to borrow dollars, euros, or other fiat currencies

Starting point is 00:01:47 against their cryptocurrencies. If you want to learn more about the first defy non-custodial banking protocol today, go check out meld.com. That's meldd.com. And thanks again to Meld for sponsoring the show. So as I mentioned, it was a crazy day today and an even crazier day yesterday, but I want to actually start about five and a half years ago. August 2016 was a very different time in this industry's history. Bitcoin was trading around the $500, $600 mark. The biggest channel for communication wasn't Twitter, but was Reddit. And the biggest exchange for for USD-based trading was Bitfinex, which is why the news that came on August 2nd that they had been

Starting point is 00:02:30 hacked hit like a bomb. On August 2nd, Bitfinex was hacked for 119,756 Bitcoin. This was 36% of the funds on the exchange, and given how dominant Bitfinex was in the USD markets, it was like 36% of the Bitcoin in the US as a whole. The price of Bitcoin immediately took a 22% dive and even got lower for a time. Now, when the hack happened, the Bitcoin lost was worth the equivalent of around $60 or $70 million. But the total market cap of Bitcoin was only around $9.5 billion at that time. So we're talking about a half a percent of Bitcoin supply being stolen, over $5 billion worth in today's terms. BitFinex initially made everyone on the site take a 36% haircut to socialize the losses. But then it did a number of things to try to make people hold.

Starting point is 00:03:23 There was a whole process of issuing a BFX token at a rate of one for each $1 lost, and over the next eight months, they redeemed all of those tokens for either dollars or by exchanging them for shares of stock. Then, of course, this story largely faded from view. As we well know, the story of 2017 wasn't the fallout of the Bitfinex hack. It was all about ICOs. As part of that, other exchanges, most notably Binance, came to the forefront. But then about a week ago something interesting happened. A strange movement of funds got picked up

Starting point is 00:03:57 by trackers and analysts on the 31st of January, with 94,643 Bitcoin being moved to an unknown wallet. People very quickly started speculating that it was either the hackers or the government seizing it. Well, it turned out to be the latter, and yesterday it was announced that the Department of Justice had arrested two people in connection with the hack and seized $3.6 billion in BTC. The two individuals are Ilya Dutch Lichtenstein and Heather Morgan. They've been charged with money laundering conspiracy and conspiracy to defraud the United States. There was an immediate battle yesterday around the couple's flight risk, but ultimately they were released to home detention with a wearable GPS and a $5 million bond for Lichtenstein and a $3 million bond for Morgan. Both of the

Starting point is 00:04:42 defendant's parents had to pledge their homes as collateral. The couple were ultimately taken down through a complex tracking operation that watched the flow of these funds. Interestingly, although they were Bitcoin billionaires on paper, they actually couldn't access almost any of it without fear of being caught. Or at least they hadn't figured out a good way to do so. They had mostly laundered the money through things like buying $500 cards from Walmart, Uber, hotels.com, and PlayStation. And it's part of what's made this story so crazy. Indeed, much has been made of the couple themselves. He ran a startup backed by White Combinator. She was a public figure writing for Forbes and also releasing surrealist rap music under the

Starting point is 00:05:21 Razel Khan. There has been rampant speculation about how all of this purloined Bitcoin ended up in the possession of these particular people. And there is so much more to unpack here. However, since this is so fresh, I wanted to do something a little bit different and give you a first person historical perspective. Zane Tackett is currently the head of institutional sales at FTX, where I work with him regularly. But back then, he led community and product for BitFinex and was on the front lines of this entire affair. I asked Zane to come on the show and give that first person in history sort of point of view, and so I hope you enjoy this conversation. All right, Zane, welcome to the breakdown. How you doing, sir? Doing all right. Yeah, interesting day. Yeah, I vet. So I appreciate you jumping on

Starting point is 00:06:10 really quickly. Obviously, I've given a bit of background and context in the intro to this show, but I thought it would be super fun to have you on as sort of a first person witness and participant in a historical moment that now has a very important new phase in the story. So I guess to go back then, first, remind me again of your exact title. I was the director of community and product development. And that effectively meant, the director of community in particular meant you were sort of more public facing than just about anyone, yeah? Yeah. So I pretty much did all the outward facing interviews or communication. And then also I was the only Chinese speaker. so handle all the Chinese market.

Starting point is 00:06:53 Most of the listeners at this point came in to the industry. A lot of them came in in 2020 or 2021. And even the ones who came in before that, often weren't here in 2016. So I want to kind of zoom back and talk about just what the state of the industry was around this time, right? In terms of what was different about who was around? What was different in terms of the kind of conversations that were going on?

Starting point is 00:07:16 We had just had the Dow hack a few months earlier, I think. But yeah, what was it like in 2016, you know, even before this happened? So right before this happened, things in the industry were actually going like extremely well. I remember I did go out to see John Carlo for the first time, the CFO of Bithnix, in July. And we had just done $1.4 billion in volume that month, which was like, oh, my God, unheard of, which is kind of funny now because that's, you know, a bad day. But we had kind of finally gotten over the bear market from 2014, 2015, 2016 was just starting to build up speed. BitFinex was just hugely dominant, doing over 40% of the BTC USDA volume pretty much every day and sometimes getting above 50%, even close to 60%.

Starting point is 00:08:15 So, you know, things were going very well in the industry. it was still, you know, very small, but, you know, building back up from the bear market, starting to gain momentum and Bithenex was just, you know, the king of the hill. And even in terms of like, there are a bunch of like subtle differences too, right? Like, you know, where Reddit, for example, stood as a communication channel as compared to Twitter was pretty significantly different, right? Or any other kind of big notable things like that in terms of which channels you had to engage with or who was represented in the communities of participants?

Starting point is 00:08:51 Yeah, so this is, Twitter was just starting to get a bit of usage in crypto at this time. Reddit was still definitely the place where most people were. And the other place was actually Trading View, which is kind of funny. Like Trading View had chats or has, still has, but that was actually quite a popular place as well. And then, you know, something called TeamSpeak, which had a lot of the, I guess you would say, pro-tail or, you know, kind of power user traders. But Reddit was always my favorite medium. Bitcoin markets was my favorite subreddit. Like, it had a lot of really good high-level discussion.

Starting point is 00:09:35 Okay. So the optimism is returning. There's some momentum. There's wind on your sales. Talk to us about what the sort of the, sort of the. very initial feeling was or how you guys started to figure out that something was wrong and what that very first period was like? Yeah. So I'll just go back a little bit further. Like right after I left John Carlos, things were going so well that I do remember thinking like, man, you know,

Starting point is 00:10:07 life can't be this easy. Things are going so well. Something bad has to happen. Like, you know, just can't keep going like this. And I think it was like four days later. five days later that this happened. And yeah, I was out with a Chinese client, a really large client of ours living in Amsterdam at the time the night before, go out and wake up and a bit hung over. And we weren't crediting deposits, which this Chinese client was, you know, starting to get a bit frustrating, kept pinning me up, hey, why isn't my deposit landed, you know, what's going on?

Starting point is 00:10:41 And I kept putting it in slack. and it was really weird that I wasn't getting a response because usually, you know, Paulo or somebody on the team would respond within minutes. And, you know, there's almost never a need for multiple pings. And this time, you know, I'd probably send it three or four times. And I started to get a little bit frustrated. And I was like, all right, guys, seriously, like, what's going on?

Starting point is 00:11:04 Tell me. And we had an all-hands call. And we get on. And I think it was Phil that just kind of goes like, all right, guys, we were hacked. You know, and I've been through a hack at Bitfinex before. Actually, almost as soon as I joined, BitFinex got hacked and we just ate the loss. And, you know, this was right before we moved over to BitGo.

Starting point is 00:11:26 And with BitGo, we had the per account limits. So each account had their own address on the blockchain so that you could have real time proof of reserves. And so we had every single account or wallet, you know, address had its own limits. and then there was a global limit. And so when we got hacked, you know, it was bummer, but who cares? It's only 2,000 Bitcoin. We can survive that because we had a global limit of 2000. So I was like, all right, you know, so we lost 2000 Bitcoin.

Starting point is 00:11:58 What next? And it was like, no, it's a little bit bigger. And I was like, oh, you know, it's kind of weird because we have the global limit in place. Like, you know, how much bigger could it be? And so I remember asking, like, what? He's like, yeah, no, it's a bit bigger. And I was like, 10,000? How big are we getting here?

Starting point is 00:12:20 He's like, oh, we're not sure yet and kind of danced around it a bit. And I just hopped off and called John Carlo directly. And I was like, all right, you know, what? Where are we at? How much did we lose? Like, how bad is this? And he was like, yeah, 119,756 Bitcoin. And just, oh, man.

Starting point is 00:12:39 Yeah, it just shook my world. And like, you know, I was pretty sure that we could only lose 2,000. So then hearing 119,756 was lost was like, holy crap, you know, and just kind of rocked me. And then I think my next question was like, all right, so are we dead? Like, you know, is this it? Just pack up and go home. And John Carlo, who, if, you know, if anybody's ever met him, knows that he's a very confident person, you know, believes in himself, believes in his team, believes in the, in the product.

Starting point is 00:13:13 And to hear him say, yeah, I don't know, was just shocking. I was like, oh, my God, how, you know, if this guy is shook, what could be going on? And John Carlo was actually, like, on vacation when it happened. I think he was out on a boat or something with very poor Wi-Fi. And then, you know, yeah, I was like, right then you just kind of get that adrenaline dump. like, all right, it's time to start handling stuff. So I hopped off the phone with John Carlos, started prepping the communications, trying to figure out, you know, how we want to notify the users about this.

Starting point is 00:13:55 And I remember the first thing I put like, I typed it into Twitter. And it was just the worst thing you could have ever put. It was something like, you know, BitFinex hacked, customer funds lost. And I typed that on. I was like, wait, no, that's. not very good. And then we thought, okay, yeah, started like limiting us to the 140 characters of Twitter, probably better to just say, you know, there's a security incident with breach, more details, and linked to an announcement on Bits and X. So started kind of just trying to

Starting point is 00:14:27 prepare for that initial announcement. And then starting, you know, trying to prepare all the, you know, how we want to frame this, how we want to go about it. Do we want to release the exact amount do we want to release how we're going to try to handle it? You know, we don't, we're not really sure yet. And so at the beginning, we didn't release how much was stolen. And that didn't last for very long because people could just see the P2SH, how much Bitcoin was held in P2SH addresses, multi-sig addresses, went down by about 120,000. So people had a pretty good idea very quickly how much was lost.

Starting point is 00:15:08 So I came out and confirmed that it was 119,756. And then I think it was something like 42 hours or something without any sleep. Just going through interviews with the media, going through, you know, Twitter, Reddit, trying to get everybody as much information as possible about what happened, how we're going to deal with it. And the biggest crux of like how are we going to deal with it is there's kind of two ways of thinking about it. was the people that lost money, bummer. You know, you basically have a security deposit box, and that security deposit box was compromised.

Starting point is 00:15:50 And so your funds are gone, and that doesn't affect anybody else. But then, you know, as you're looking at it, it didn't really make sense to do that. And, you know, one of the reasons why is it the guy, the hacker started from the largest addresses and drained it down until we stopped it. And so you would basically be just, you know, taking the money from all of the people that had the most on your exchange, which probably isn't a good way to, you know, secure your survival. And so in the end, with 36% across the top haircut. And then John Carlo and Phil started working on the BFX idea. And, you know, I mentioned before John Carlo, like, it was weird to see his confidence shook.

Starting point is 00:16:35 And I think within like a day he was back like, nope, we're going to be. back. We got this. No problem. We'll pay everybody back. And, you know, how to how to full plan. And then at that point, it's a lot easier for me to do my job because it's just like, all right, I need to keep things alive until we can execute this plan. There must have been intense skepticism, scrutiny. Like, I can't even imagine the state of conversations at that point. Yeah. And for better or for worse, the real-time proof of reserves, like, It did exactly as advertised. People could check in real time whether or not their own funds were stolen.

Starting point is 00:17:15 People kind of saw how much was stolen. And then conspiracy theories started to fly. People were assholes. I got a lot of death threats. But, you know, whatever. People are assholes. If you want to say you're going to kill me, you know, be my guest. But the suicide notes were much harder to take because I did, you know,

Starting point is 00:17:37 you could see that their money was gone. And it did really affect people. So that was much harder. But basically, I just thought, you know, I'm going to try and be as transparent as possible, provide as much information as possible. As soon as I have updates, I'll share it. And then, yeah, there was like a war room going on with BitFinex internally, you know, how things, what's going on, what's happening, pushing out updates. There was a lot of chats with BitGo about what's going on, you know, how are we going to get our funds back to bring up the site so that people can withdraw? Because, you know, there was still a lot of Bitcoin held at the exchange and people obviously were not very comfortable with, you know, the hack having just happened and then still

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Starting point is 00:20:29 When you trade NFTs on FTCX, you pay no gas fees. Download the FTCX app today and use referral code breakdown to support the show. So this ended up being the beginning of the end of your tenure there. as you kind of left and got into other roles in the in the crypto industry, were there any big takeaways for you or, you know, just think different differences in how you thought about things after or just, you know, kind of any big, big kind of, you know, high level reflections? Yeah, there were a lot. So, you know, one, I think the biggest one was that you really find out who you want to do business with in moments like this.

Starting point is 00:21:14 there were a lot of clients that, you know, the people that lost the most money by far, like not even close. The people that lost the most money were the ones that were the easiest to deal with, were the best to deal with that were, you know, instead of saying, you know, fuck you guys, how am I going to get my money back? We're saying, hey, how can we help? What can we do to kind of, you know, get things back and, you know, make people whole? and so you know you really kind of saw people's true colors and you know who was there for

Starting point is 00:21:48 who was a good partner and one of those was B2C2 the CEO of max where I ended up going after bitfinex reached out and first thing he said it was like hey you know let's talk about your future and you know yeah so he I had been looking into going into the OTC space for a while and then you know he had pretty good timing on pinging me, but, yeah, I would say that was my biggest takeaway. And not dealing with the public at large is a much less draining job. So what was it like then hearing this news yesterday? I mean, had you, yeah, was it just sort of totally out of the blue for you? Oh, my, yo, do you have no idea. Like, historically, they had done,

Starting point is 00:22:41 They had moved coins very infrequently. And, you know, I was always like that. That's super smart. Like, if I were them, I would just be racking up debt left and right and not touching that Bitcoin until way longer so that better tools could come out to try and hide your tracks because any single time you touch that Bitcoin, you're basically leaving a trail.

Starting point is 00:23:01 And they might not be able to find it when it happens. But, you know, years down the line, there might be some better technology that allows them to look back and see what mistakes you made. So to see that they had finally got caught and not shortly after that, that 10,000 BTC movement, it was surreal. Yeah, to be honest, I didn't really think the Bitcoin were going to ever come back because they had been pretty prudent with not moving it and it didn't seem like they were, you know,

Starting point is 00:23:32 very reckless. Now that we have all the details, that obviously isn't the case. and I'm not going to lie, just seeing what Heather, I believe, Heather Morgan, seeing her Twitter and like the top post was, you have enemies good, that means you stood up for something in your life, like, oh, that, that, that, I didn't like that. But then seeing how goofy, you know, a lot of their videos where it's like, these, these are the people that like, you know, ruined my life for months.

Starting point is 00:24:07 Like, wow. whether or not they were hackers, I don't know, but it was very interesting seeing, you know, who had the money kind of how public they were, which that was also really weird because like when we got hacked, you know, I used to be a normal young 20, whatever year old and post on Facebook and use social media and all that stuff. And then after the hack, I completely stopped. Don't post on Facebook anymore because people were digging through my old posts. and seeing that I traveled, you know, like I was in Thailand, and then I went to Amsterdam.

Starting point is 00:24:43 They're like, this kid stole our money and, you know, we got to go kill him in Amsterdam and blah, blah, blah. And so I was like, all right, I'm done on social media. And then to see the people that stole the money being super prolific on social media was very weird. Yeah, there's some serious cognitive dissonance that I don't think anyone has fully wrapped their head around or sorted through yet on this one. you know, it's, I don't think this is the end of the story. I think the lawsuit is going to be

Starting point is 00:25:15 more fireworks, more popcorn, because I would be surprised if they're the hackers. Also, what the hell are you doing in America? Like, come on, man. You know, the judge actually made that point when assessing whether they were a flight risk or not. He was basically like, if they're a flight risk, why the hell are they still here, you know, especially because apparently they've known about this investigation since like November or something like yeah um like a if they did the hack you know my first move would be I'm getting out of America you know uh and then be like once you're sitting on all that money for that long you know you know that every single address you know a list of address has those flagged like you're on every watch list that there is for Bitcoin addresses

Starting point is 00:26:06 and you know that you're going to be scrutinized. Why are you doing this in America? You know, like cashing out a gift card with Bitcoin from one of the largest hacks in history in the U.S. It just defies any logic. Yeah, I think that you're right when you say that this is probably, there's a lot more in this story to come. I guess any other kind of like final takeaways or wrap-ups,

Starting point is 00:26:32 I know it's like it's kind of crazy to sort of have what feels. like ancient history, especially in crypto time, dragged back up. But do you think that, you know, what's the net impact of things like this? Does it just restart old, you know, kind of conspiracy narratives or frustrating narratives? Or is this just basically like unreservedly good for the industry to have criminals that actually have taken advantage of the industry and kind of given it the reputation that it continues to try to shed a good thing? I don't see a way in which this is a bad thing. You know, on one hand, I think it definitely should demotivate potential hackers. You see how hard it is to clean the stolen money. You know, like they were offered $400 million for it and they

Starting point is 00:27:20 could have just taken it as a bug bounty and walked away. So I do think it's good to show that, you know, it's not as easy as just stealing the money. There's a whole lot after that that you're going to have to deal with and you're always going to have to look over your shoulder. I do also think it's good that hopefully I'm assuming that Bitfinex will get the money back and it'll go to people that believed in BitFNex either through the RRT or BFX or LEO or however they end up doing that, which I think that's good. People that have supported them for the last six years will get rewarded for that. As to some of the conspiracies it brought up, you know, one thing that it's at least my

Starting point is 00:28:05 personal opinion, you know, I think that in any exchange should be self-custodying their funds. And if you look at like the way that all the big exchanges operate now, you see Binance, you know, Binance doesn't use a custodian or a custodian integration. FTCS, same thing. Coinbase, same thing. And so you've kind of seen this move away from trusting a third-party vendor to deciding to do it in-house. which massively reduces information leakage and attack surface. You're not relying on another party to also not have any issues or be compromised.

Starting point is 00:28:46 And so I think that's a great thing. And I do think that it's also kind of proven the formidability of just the hot, cold wallet setup. You know, like BitConnects with BitGo had the, real-time proof of reserves, everybody has their own address. It was fancy. It also allowed us to solve the CFTC problem in the U.S. with margin trading, where you give one key to the person borrowing the funds to demonstrate delivery. Like, it's this, you know, complex product that on paper sounds pretty cool. And then when the hack happened, it was like, yeah, we had limits. They were all bypassed. And, you know, all of these wallets were essentially warm wallets, if not

Starting point is 00:29:34 hot wallets. And since then, you know, when was the last time you saw somebody try and do something, you know, outside of the hot, cold wallet setup? It's kind of gone back to the basics. You know, we know what works. And I think that's also a good thing. It's super cliche and like, you know, at the risk of being polyanish, I do think that every time you see sort of the resolution of one of these things, it is important to recognize, you know, and especially as regulators get deeper into this too, that a lot of these trials by fire have made the industry much more security conscious. They've solved holes faster than any sort of regulation could in many ways.

Starting point is 00:30:15 So, you know, there's always an upside to the story, right? Well, the other thing that I think is important to recognize is that, so like BitFenex, hack was huge, right? Everybody got $1 for a token for every dollar they lost, and they were completely paid back through BFX redemptions, or they're allowed to convert to equity and get over $2 back in dividends plus the equity. If you look at the wormhole hack the other day, you know, jump stepped up, backed it right away. This is an industry that despite being born out of little regulation and obviously getting more regulated,

Starting point is 00:30:54 has done a pretty good job at protecting the consumer. At the end of the day, a lot of these losses are born by the companies and people either get paid back or don't even have the loss to begin with. And it really does show the strength of this industry and how well we've done and building out something that's very strong. Awesome, man. Well, Zane, thank you for joining the show.

Starting point is 00:31:16 It's great to have that first person look at a crazy historical moment. Yeah, thanks for having me on. And yeah, very excited to see what else comes out in the coming days. Back to NLW here. And by way of wrapping up, I want to hone in on something Zane said about how it feels like we're probably going to learn

Starting point is 00:31:34 a lot more about this. I think that that's true. I think that there are so many questions about how this particular couple came to have this Bitcoin, what the actual process of the hack was. Were they involved with that? Did they just buy it later? Etc. Etc. There's going to be a ton, a never-ending, basically, set of lurid, fascinating details for us to pour over. But I also can't help but reflect that this story comes in a significant. significant time. The crypto industry has had not one but two hearings this week, and is in the midst of transitioning from this perception of it being the Wild West to something that exists in a public policy framework that regulators and traditional businesses can wrap their heads

Starting point is 00:32:16 around. On the one hand, this story brings up a reminder of that Wild West time in the industry's history. But on the other hand, it's a sign of things getting cleaned up, and I can't help but think that in many ways, no matter what comes out about these particular defendants and what happened precisely with the hack, many, if not most of the important lessons that came out of it have already found their way into common practice in the industry in terms of how we think about custody, in terms of exchange risk, in terms of all of those things which are now just embedded as expectations in how we operate and function. As painful as some of these memories can be, they are also the stepping stones that made the industry able to grow the way that it has and handle the volume and

Starting point is 00:33:04 the interest that it currently does. I think we don't need to shirk away from our history, but we do need to understand it. And I hope this gave you at least one person's perspective on that history today. I want to say thanks again to my sponsors, nexo.io, arculus, FTX, and mel.com. Thanks to Zane for joining me, and thanks to you guys for listening. Until tomorrow, be safe and take care of each other. Peace.

The Breakdown - As the US Seizes $3.6B in BTC, a Frontline Story From the 2016 Bitfinex Hack, With Zane Tackett

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