The Breakdown - Marty Bent on Why Bitcoin and Big Energy Are Unlikely Allies

Episode Date: September 23, 2020

Today on the Brief: Where the digital euro fits in Lagarde’s economic integration plans New stablecoin guidance from the OCC Mnuchin and Powell head to the Hill Our main discussion features Marty Bent.  Marty is the author of one of the best known daily bitcoin newsletters, as well as the host of “Tales From The Crypt” podcast. He also is one of the leaders of Great American Mining, a new project using bitcoin mining to make big energy more efficient and profitable.  In this discussion, we talk about how bitcoin and big energy are unlikely allies, how that alliance can bring more bitcoin mining back to America, and how it is working to reduce America’s energy dependence.  Find our guest online: Twitter: @MartyBent Twitter: @GAMdotAI Website: https://gam.ai

We're in North Dakota predominantly right now in North Dakota, as some of the strictest flaring regulations in the country. So if a producer in the Bocke and in North Dakota flares a certain amount, they have to shut down oil production. So we're just going to show up to you. And we'll, instead of building a pipeline that's hundreds of miles long, we'll build one that's a few dozen feet long and run it to generators and we'll consume that gas and turn it into Bitcoin with our mine here.

Welcome back to the breakdown with me, NLW. It's a daily podcast on macro, Bitcoin, and the big picture power shifts remaking our world. The breakdown is sponsored by crypto.com, BitStamp, and nexo.io, and produced and distributed by CoinDess. What's going on, guys? It is Tuesday, September 22nd, and today I'm excited to share a conversation that I've been waiting to share for months. That conversation is with Marty Bent, and it's about why Bitcoin and Big Energy are. are actually potentially unlikely allies. First, however, let's do the brief. First up on the brief today, more on the digital euro.

So I mentioned yesterday that a wire had come through showing that Europe might be about to get on the digital currency train. We got more details than I wanted to share them. Christine Lagarde, who is the head of the European Central Bank, gave an introductory speech at the Franco-German Parliamentary Assembly yesterday. and it's important to put this speech in the context of what has transpired this year. When the coronavirus first started to take hold, one of the impacts was a real questioning of the ability of European government to actually handle it.

Countries seemed to be turning inward on themselves rather than reaching out to one another, and there were real questions of the survival of both the European Union as a whole, but more specifically the euro. Subsequently, however, Europe has surprised many people and recovered very well. The euro has been particularly strong over the last few months against the dollar, and there is now a bigger push for deeper economic integration. That push for deeper economic integration sets the tone for this speech. So I'm going to read the relevant part to the digital euro, and it's in a section called

the case for jointly shaping Europe's future. We must now carry this positive momentum forward. It is time for Europe to move beyond the initial priority of containing the immediate impact of the crisis and shape a common vision for its future. The pandemic has the potential to accelerate trends that were already emerging before the crisis, trends that will lead to structural changes in the global economy. In a world where technological change and geopolitical tensions are transforming the geography of value chains, we should make full use of the size and diversity of the European economy.

If we strengthen economic and monetary union and deepen the single market, we do not only benefit all Europeans by improving the way we produce, distribute, and consume. We also increase our autonomy and ensure that Europe is better protected in the world of tomorrow. As legislators, you have a crucial role to play in designing policies that can revitalize our economies. Digitalization is a case in point. We need to fully reap the potential gains from digital technologies and, at the same time, make sure labor markets remain inclusive. If we don't, we risk creating a new divide, and we can already see gaps opening up when we look at the difference in wages, education levels, and gender. By implementing the right set of national and European policies, we will achieve more together than we can alone.

At a national level, we need to make sure that necessary changes to labor, product, and financial market regulations, and invest in education to reduce digital exclusion. At a European level, this should be complemented by accelerating progress towards the digital single market to help deliver economies of scale, for digital firms, while addressing key concerns around cybersecurity and data protection. In a more digital economy, we also need to ensure the strength and autonomy of the European payment system. The euro system is actively pursuing initiatives to achieve this. We are also exploring the benefits, risks, and operational challenges of introducing a digital euro. A digital euro could be a complement to, not a substitute for, cash. It could provide an alternative to private digital currencies and ensure that sovereign money remains at the core of

European payment systems. So the important thing here is that, one, Europe is going through the same process that we're seeing play out in the U.S., which is a comparative turn inward, a reshoring of supply chains and just a rethinking of the economic system and dependence on outside actors. But second, that project of deeper European integration, especially as opposed to the world, call it make Europe upgrade again, is now setting the context for a potential digital euro. I think that's significant and could change both who supports a digital euro and how much momentum there is for it. Next up, let's look at some crypto guidance a little closer to home. The Office of the Comptroller of the currency and the SEC have provided some new guidance around stablecoins. Stablecoins have

obviously been one of the breakout crypto stars of 2020, growing as fast as $100 million a day in total circulating supply. That total supply started the year at something like $4.8 billion and is now closing in on closer to $20 billion. That said, stable coins have existed in something of a regulatory gray area. With this new guidance, however, banks are officially allowed to work with them. Here's how CoinDest described it. Stablecoin issuers have been using U.S. banks for years, but in an unclear regulatory environment. Now, the OCC wants federally regulated banks to feel comfortable providing services to stable coin issuers, it said in a press release. Unaccompanying interpretive letter signed by senior deputy comptroller Jonathan Gould explained that

while banks should conduct due diligence and ensure they assess the risks of banking any stable coin issuers, stable coins are becoming increasingly popular. Now, in some ways this might not be surprising, given that the head of the office of the comptroller of the currency was formerly General Counsel at Coinbase. However, it's good news for people who are invested in this ecosystem. to banking services matters. I went deep on this on Saturday's show on Cracken and its new banking license. And one example I pointed to there was India and how restrictions in who could bank crypto companies led to that industry being totally stagnant for nearly two years.

Last up on the brief today, Secretary Steve Mnuchin and Jay Powell are headed to the hill. The Treasury Secretary and the head of the Federal Reserve are both testifying before Congress today on further stimulus efforts. From the written statements, it seems that the Fed is going to paint a picture where, while some parts of the economy are coming back significantly, there are still serious concerns when it comes to the path of recovery. Secretary Mnuchin is likely to focus on the stalemate around further support and the risk that is growing of a government shutdown. To get a sense of where the narrative is, just look at the Wall Street Journal piece that ran just beside this that said, laid off workers cut spending hunt for jobs as extra unemployment benefits run out.

In an election cycle, no one wants to be the party, no one wants to be the politician, that left hurting families behind. So expect to see more stimulus coming down the pipe. But with that, let's shift to our main discussion with Marty Bent. For the vast majority of you, Marty Bent will need no introduction. He is the host of Tales from the Crypt, and he is the author of... the eponymous daily newsletter Marty's Bent, which for my money has perfected the art of the one-thought medium. Marty is a deeply invested bitcoiner and in this conversation we actually talk about a different part of his role, which is his role with Great American Mining Company.

The idea of Great American is to do two things simultaneously, to help energy companies use the energy that they're pulling from the earth more efficiently by having on-site mining, while also contributing to energy independence. Former breakdown guest and venture capitalist Jeff Lewis called Great American Mining Company and the idea of Bitcoin and oil coming together, the type of narrative violation that gets him incredibly excited, and I agree wholeheartedly. I think the idea of using more of the energy that we're extracting from the ground, bringing more mining home to the U.S., while also increasing energy independence is a really powerful combination of things. So I hope you enjoy this conversation.

All right. We are back with the man, the myth, the legend, Mr. Marty Bent. How's it going, sir? It's going good. Happy to be back. Thanks for having me. Yeah. So I'm really excited to have this conversation.

It's one that I've actually been thinking about for like nine months. since the last time I had you on the show, which actually at the very beginning, right, when I was kind of transitioning from what I've been doing before to the actual podcast. But I wanted to start first. I want to get your, uh, your hot take on one thing, which I think is really fascinating because it kind of intersects the Twitter conversation. So obviously this week, we found out that micro strategy had bought not just the 250 million that we knew about, but they ended up buying 175 million more at Bitcoin, right? And, uh, so Michael was on podcast. Tom's podcast earlier in this week. He and I just recorded as well. And one of the things that he made

very clear is that the Bitcoin sort of defense mechanism, right, the maximalist infrastructure of people who are hostile to threats, which has been a much decried part of this ecosystem, was one of the things that gave him a lot of confidence in this industry. And in fact, the biggest thing that he said would get him off the asset was actually people kind of losing faith in it. So I wanted to just get your take on the whole micro strategy thing. You know, he'll have been on the show a couple days before you when this comes out. But, you know, I'm sure you have a perspective on this and that part in particular of the story. Yeah, no, I mean, having listened to POMP's podcast, the one thing that stuck out to me was his nod towards original content creators helping guide him on a

journey to better understanding Bitcoin and the network and what actually makes it work, which led to him sort of siding with Bitcoin maximalist, if you will, that being ardent and steadfast and very first principles based is part of the investment theory of Bitcoin, the fact that you want a store of value, a digital asset, acting as a store of value to bring that dream into fruition, it has to change very little yet, have confidence that it will be protected. So, yeah, I mean, I've been called a Bitcoin Maximilus a toxic Bitcoin Maximilus before in the past. And I don't think, I really don't think I'm a toxic person, but I do. I will stand up and defend what I believe is important and makes Bitcoin work as a distributed system.

And I think Michael's number one is investment of half a billion dollars. And then his confirmation after buying that, that this is the reason why he, He dump so much capital into Bitcoin as a store of value really validates the position of, quote, unquote, toxic Bitcoin maximalists who frankly understand that if this is going to succeed in the long run, you have to draw some lines in the stand and defend some properties that assure the ability to transact and appear-to-peer in a distributed fashion. I think one of the things that was interesting, at least in our conversation, is that he made this very clear. clear line where for him it wasn't like he he wasn't interested or didn't care that much about other things happening in crypto not because he had some sort of hate for them it was just literally like when it came to the problem that he was trying to address and what he was fascinated by in bitcoin it just wasn't it was almost like talking about two separate things you know and uh and sort of the the

maximalist for him i think created a really clear line that uh that allowed for sort of a uh I mean, it was a clear barrier, right, that protected the, it protected almost this thing, which was about a monetary phenomenon from the normal pattern of technology, which is to try to rip out and disrupt and change, you know? And both of those things are needed for societal evolution. But in terms of, again, what he was looking for and this unique invention in monetary history, there needed to be a protection layer. Yeah.

to echo what you just said there it does make sense to to rip things out and move fast and break things in certain contexts but I think that's what's very important what we're doing here in the in the Bitcoin and cryptocurrency overall is that it's a very specific context and we're trying to

try to provide very specific tools that's essentially what Bitcoin is at the end of the day monetary tool to the market at the end of the day and if that tool is to be a success will have certain properties that must be defended and frankly other things, especially at the protocol level that seem like they would be advantageous, frankly aren't. And I say this often in the newsletter and on the podcast, there's beauty and Bitcoin simplicity. The fact that it does very few things very well and those things are guarded by a community of Bitcoin users and that people hate the word community, but whatever.

It's true to an extent that people defending those properties, both locally and then in action via running full modes, is beautiful to see. And I think, again, bringing it back to the context of other technologies may make sense in some domains, but in the domain of digital hard money, the context demands that you draw some lines in the sand and defend them. Absolutely. What's going on, guys? excited to share that one of this month's breakdown sponsors is Crypto.com. Crypto.com offers one of the most cost-efficient ways to purchase crypto out there, as they've just waived the 3.5% credit card fee for all crypto purchases.

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And my memory was jogged. This is something that I've been following for a long time, even before we had that conversation. But you tweeted out the other day, Bitcoin and the oil and gas industry have a symbiotic relationship that most don't realize at the moment. The prospects of American energy independence have never been better if you're paying attention. And so I wanted to invite you back basically to give people a,

just a really quick primer introduction to this space that you're spending time in, you know, how you got interested in it, what you guys are working on, why there is this symbiotic relationship that most people don't realize at the moment. Yeah. So to start a Great American mining, simply put, we are a Bitcoin mining company that wants to be as profitable as possible. And to do that, we have to drive our power production cost as low as possible. And so we found, And actually on top of that, we want to distribute hash rate outside of where it's centralized right now, which is China, and bring it to U.S. soil to help further distribute hash rate production so that the network is more decentralized and more robust in a long run. And again, going back to the first point that our main goals to drive our power production costs as low as possible, we're provided that opportunity on oil and gas fields using their waste gas.

So today when oil gas producers poke a hole in the earth to take oil out, oil's not the only thing that comes out. You have a lot of waste gas that comes with it, and it's a pretty considerable amount of gas. You can run some of it through a pipeline and get to a grid, but most of it actually gets flared, vented, flared or vented, which is, number one, bad for the environment, and then too bad for the oil and gas producers because they're literally lighting money on fire. They're not able to sell to market, and they're basically just wasted. they're wasting economic opportunity. And so at Great American Mining, again, we describe it as a symbiotic relationship because we're looking for low power production costs and they're looking to solve their flare and vent issues.

So even if they don't sell the gas to us, they have problems because they can only flare a certain amount, depending on what state you're in. We're in North Dakota predominantly right now in North Dakota, as some of the strictest flaring regulations in the country. So if a producer in the Bocke and in North Dakota, flare is a certain amount, and it's over the level that the state regulators have set and allowed them to, they have to shut down oil production.

So they have a high incentive to reduce their flare in the field as much as possible. And so we show up and say, hey, we're going to bring the market to the molecule. That's one of the phrases we have. So instead of trying to move the molecule to the market, to the market via pipeline or a natural gas liquid, we're just going to show up to you.

And we'll, instead of building a pipeline that's hundreds of miles long, we'll build one that's a few dozen feet long and run it to generators and we'll consume that gas and turn it into Bitcoin with our mine here and our shipping containers. And so that number one solves their flaring issues. They're flaring less so they're able to keep their oil production up, which is what they care about. They want to get as much oil to market as possible so that they can, get their initial investment on the drilling back. They're potentially, depending on this particular

setup with particular producers, they're getting economic value out of that gas as well. We can do a revenue share with them. We'll show up and say, hey, we'll plug our miners in. We'll consume your gas. And if you give it to us for free, we'll do a revenue share on the Bitcoin mine. You can either liquidate that into US dollars or hold the Bitcoin on your balance sheet if you want to. And so really it's a holistic solution, we believe, that it has some pretty big long-term implications. One, we're going to make oil gas producers as efficient as possible. Two, that efficiency will add to their bottom line, which helps us get closer to energy independence. So a big thing that happened this year in the oil industry, as I'm sure many of your listeners know at this point,

is we had the oil futures one month contract trading negative. The May contract, I believe, at the time was trading in negative territory. And that was because Saudi Arabia and Russia unexpectedly decided to increase production. And so flooded the global markets with supply and shell producers here in the United States, got the short end of the stick, and a lot had to shut in production. And so we believe if they're able to create an alternative revenue stream via Bitcoin mining, I could sort of inoculate them to the supply games that OPEC and other players outside of OPEC play on the global stage.

So adding revenue to their balance sheet gives them a little leverage on the global stage. And then on top of that, we have a 30-year vision in which, again, going back to the symbiotic relationship, becoming energy independent is important, but to do that, they have to invest a lot of money in Bitcoin mining infrastructure. And so we believe that in the next 10 years, oil and gas producers are going to be some of the biggest Bitcoin miners in the world. And they're going to look at all the investment they've put in Bitcoin mining infrastructure specifically.

And then they're going to go look at Capitol Hill and say, hey, don't mess up this golden cow we have. So instead of depending on a coin center or a hoddle pack or something like that, you have oil and gas lobby, who's one of the strongest in the world defending Bitcoin because they have a lot of capital infrastructure outlaid into the assets specifically to help them. And then if you take it even further, they're going to look at that same capital infrastructure and say, hey, look at all this equipment we have. We have to buy it and we buy it from supply chains that are outside the U.S.

And so maybe they don't invest in themselves, but they lobby the government to invest in bringing chip manufacturing or chip foundries to U.S. soil, which has already started, not for this reason particularly, but the Trump administration announced this year that they're going to invest alongside TSM to bring a foundry to Arizona. So I think long term, we're going to come as efficient as possible with the wasted energy that we're wasting. We're going to become energy independent. And Bitcoin's going to be the way to do that.

And because of that, we'll have one of the strongest lobbies protecting Bitcoin. and then hopefully we'll be investing in supply chain in North America so that we can better protect ourselves from global supply chain issues. So a ton of follow-ups. Every time I talk about this, I get super stoked on it. I mean, so first of all, I think that one of the things that's really interesting, I'm a very kind of novice observer of this space, but I, you know, I care a lot about and spent a lot of time with kind of like geopolitics more broadly, right?

And the advent of American shale has been a huge force over the last decade in shifting the balance of power kind of geopolitically, right? Because it's made us less reliant. And I think that you have rightly identified, or you guys have rightly identified, that this is a moment where there's sort of a retreat and rebalancing of America from the world in some ways. There's a shifting of powers of people are trying to figure out where things are. And I think that, you know, it doesn't fall clearly. And in fact, part of what makes it so interesting to me is that it doesn't fall clearly on partisan lines like a lot of other issues, right?

There's broad agreement, especially after coronavirus and the shortages we saw of medical supplies and things like that, that we have to view supply chains and, you know, as part of kind of national security as part of national interest in a different way. And it's interesting to me that Bitcoin has become or you're proffering Bitcoin. as a solution to one of the sort of, you know, challenges Achilles' heels of this industry, which is this sort of inefficiency on site of being able to fully capture and maximize the energy that's being produced, especially because I guess, you know, one other context is that there has been, because so much money flooded into this industry initially, it was, it's gone through ups and downs where it hasn't necessarily always been able to invest, invest as much as people would like in, you know, technology improvement, R&D, all those sort of

things versus just kind of raw trying to find more, which doesn't address the efficiency issues. So by being able to actually address that on the ground, I think it's a really powerful and elegant solution. I guess it brings me to my question, which is what have you guys found the response to be? Are people interested? Is it kind of mixed? Is it entirely based on who you're actually talking to. Yeah, it's been completely mixed. And since March, it's been more positive people, they're more receptive to hearing a pitch.

Yeah, it varies from producer-producer, from state to state, again, depending on the regulatory environment. Some producers in certain jurisdictions have much higher incentive to solve this problem than other producers and other jurisdictions. So, for example, North Dakota, some of the strictest regulations, Texas, some of the most lenient. So it's a bit of a harder sell in Texas unless you've found somebody believes in Bitcoin. So, yeah, another big hurdle that we've found is just base layer Bitcoin knowledge is simply not there throughout the industry.

There's some actors within the industry that really get it. But widely, most people in oil and gasser is focused on oil and gas and figure out how to extract as much profit as possible out of those minerals. So adding a layer of, hey, Bitcoin can help you out and having to learn what Bitcoin is, the network, how mining works. A lot of people still have negative connotations about it being drug and money laundering vehicles. So it's a combination of education and, I guess, incentive to want to learn about what we're doing. That's profit-driven. And again, since March, people have been scrambling. There's been a lot of well shut-ins.

And a lot of companies are going through bankruptcy. And so the ones that aren't are trying to figure out how they can avoid that going forward. So it varies. We have found mineral rights owners that are Bitcoin believers, and it's pretty easy sell to them. It's just making sure that operationally we can deliver and deliver pretty quickly. I mean, it definitely feels to me like one of those gradually then subtly sort of spaces where, I mean, not to put it too bluntly, but you guys are probably going to be pushing a boulder up a hill for a really long time when it comes to that education. But, you know, I can also see it cascading, literally like hitting oil where all of a sudden you hit the right vein, you know, one partnership comes together and all of a sudden it's emblematic. and people are like, wait a second, why aren't we doing that?

And I imagine part of the difficulty is like being able to have this 30-year vision, but then figure out the right ways to kind of bring people into it that aren't just overwhelming instantly. Yeah. And we found actually one of the best ways to have people come to an aha moment is to actually just get a container live and on site and the operators and the contractors working on the field to see our loud green box and like, what the hell is that thing doing? We're, we're helping reduce that flare.

You see these two flare stacks, the one on the right's a little less robust than the one on the left, and that's because instead of flaring a lot of that gas, we're going to siphon it off to these generators that power our Bitcoin miners, and then we turn that in a digital gold and make a profit off of it.

And the actual visualization of the container on site is something material that these operators can grasp. So that's also, if we are lucky enough to convince some operators to let us do a pilot. That's usually the best way to really drive the point home and get them thinking seriously about expanding. Yeah, I mean, I guess one question that's just specific to the business is how much is it sort of a technology play versus a logistics play for you guys,

right? Like, is there a unique or proprietary technology for siphoning off the gas into mining or is it kind of just putting components together in a process that actually makes sense? and makes it economically profitable for everyone. Yeah, for the most part, Bitcoin mining is pretty straightforward. There's a couple proprietary things that we're working on, mainly software, to make sure that we can control these containers remotely. That's one of the most important things of why we've been,

we were in a quasi-stealth mode and have been scaling up, I don't want to say slowly, but at a pace that we are comfortable with because we have to prove that we can control these containers remotely. you're not going to be able to show up on site at every container that you drop off. So we have to build internal SCADA systems that are able to manipulate the individual miners and the fan speeds within the containers to regulate temperature. And so, yes, we've built some internal IP there, but in terms of actual physical infrastructure, very little, it's pretty straightforward.

Adam back has described Bitcoin mining is a race to design the cheapest chicken check that you can. And so it's, it's pretty simple. It's a shipping 20 or 40 foot shipping container with some holes cut in it for the fans and some ventilation system and racks build in, which is nothing too novel. Awesome. So the other period that I wanted to come back to is this idea of kind of onshoreing or reshoring Bitcoin mining away from China to the U.S. I'm interested in your take on kind of why that's significant, why that's important to you guys. But then maybe secondarily, I'd love to hear your thoughts on the idea of recruiting corporations, basically the corporate sector, the private sector as an ally.

Something that I talked about actually last week on the show was if you have governments over here and kind of this private network, you know, distributed network money over here, there's a third leg of this stool of actors, which is corporations. And it seems like they could go either way, right? There's potential good incentive for them to not want these sort of disruptive technologies. But if you get them bought in and it's profitable for them, all of a sudden they create this big force and you can potentially take advantage of that existing infrastructure for lobbying, et cetera, that they have. So yeah, I mean, I would love to hear just a little bit

more on that side of the vision and why it's important. Yeah. So first to touch on China, I mean, it's pretty well known. Whether you're really close to Bitcoin or not even that close, It's one of the largest points that people point to to sort of throw shade of Bitcoin and the fact that a lot of the hash rate is centered in China. And obviously up to this point, it hasn't been a material detriment to the Bitcoin network to date. But the looming thought of the CCP just being able to come in whenever they want and decide overnight that, hey, this isn't going to work anymore. you guys can't do this is always in the back of Bitcoiners' minds.

And so if that day does ever come, we hope that we can get to a point where hash rate outside of China's border is significant enough that it won't have too much of a detriment on the network overall. It may never happen, but prepare for the worst, go for the best. In terms of partner corporations, yeah, I think, again, going back to Bitcoin miners and oil and gas producers having a symbiotic relationship, One thing we say at Great American Mining is that Bitcoin mining and oil and gas are both examples of ruthless capitalism. And the synergies that exist between what we're doing and what oil gas producers are doing is mind blowing sometimes because there's a lot of similarities, a lot of, again, just tinkering and just trying to drive down costs as much as possible in a capitalist system.

and I think it is, I mean, a lot of, a lot of hardcore bitcoiners will say you don't want this type of actor coming in and being a part of Bitcoin. But I would disagree with that where, again, Bitcoin, as Michael Goldstein is say, the only winning move is to play. So the quicker you get people on board to play and you can, again, create systems that are integral to their business. this models, they're going to protect Bitcoin at the end of the day. So I think partnering with oil and gas corporation specifically is very important for Bitcoin as a network. And then what we're doing is Bitcoin miners. And I think it will actually work out in the great benefit of the network overall because, again, you have these large corporations fighting for Bitcoin at the end of the day, which is, I would argue, what you want. Well, I think it's a super exciting project. I

I love the space that you're playing in. I'm really glad you guys have taken on this task of kind of educating in a whole industry. I can't see any way for it not to be a net positive. For people who want to learn more about this space, what would you recommend? Yes, so we actually do a weekly webinar every Thursday at noon Eastern. So if you want to sign up for that, you can go to gam.a.i. And there's a little forum. You can sign up.

We'll send you an event invite for the next week's webinar. and yeah, that's where we've been trying to educate people in oil and gas industry, specifically who are looking to learn more about Bitcoin. You can also find us on Twitter atgam.com. And me personally, if you want to, at Marty Bent on Twitter. That's where I hang out most. Awesome. All right, Marty.

Well, thank you so much for hanging out today. And look forward to seeing what you guys do. Thanks, Nathaniel. That's always a pleasure. Reflecting on that chat with Marty, it feels like this is one of those quintessential gradually then suddenly types. of shifts. I can see a huge challenge in convincing these big energy companies who have done things the same way for some time now to adapt this new way of thinking. But at the same time, when they do,

I feel like the upside is so clear and the downside so limited that it's just going to become the norm very quickly. I don't know what the timescale is for that, but I'm very glad that folks like Marty are working on this. And it's certainly something that we'll be watching here at the breakdown. For now, guys, I appreciate you listening. I hope you're having a great week. And until tomorrow, be safe and take care of each other. Peace.