The Breakdown - The 3 Most Thought-Provoking Questions in Bitcoin With Nik Bhatia

Starting point is 00:00:00 Watching the Bitcoin versus Fiat power dynamics play out over the next 20 years is literally why I'm here. So watching it right now with El Salvador and then we just had the IMF saying, we don't think you should have done that with Bitcoin and you probably should undo that decision is textbook power dynamics. This is exactly what we would have expected to happen. Welcome back to The Breakdown with me, NLW. It's a daily podcast on macro, Bitcoin, and the big picture power shifts remaking our world. The breakdown is sponsored by nexo.io, Abra, and FtX, and produced and distributed by CoinDesk. What's going on, guys? It is Friday, January 28th.

Starting point is 00:00:50 And today, I am joined by a special guest, Nick Batia, to talk about the most thought-provoking questions in Bitcoin. Before we get into the interview, however, if you are enjoying the breakdown, please go subscribe to it, give it a rating, give it a review, or if you want to get into the conversation, join the Breakers Discord. You can find the link in the show notes or go to bit.l.ly slash breakdown pod. One disclosure, as always, in addition to them being a sponsor, I also work with FTX. Now, today I am joined by Nick Batia. Nick is the author of layered money from gold and dollars to Bitcoin and Central Bank digital currencies, which is an excellent book that gives Bitcoin some historical context. Nick is also a financial researcher, CFA charterholder, an adjunct

Starting point is 00:01:38 professor of finance and business economics at the University of Southern California's Marshall School of Business. Previously, Nick worked the U.S. Treasury's trading desk for a large institutional asset manager, and that bond market experience gives him a really important perspective, as you'll see during this show. Finally, Nick is the author of the Bitcoin layer, which is one of my absolute favorite Bitcoin newsletters. He calls it a research publication to guide readers through the transformative changes happening within our monetary and financial systems because of Bitcoin. Today, this conversation is broken into two big chunks. The first is about Bitcoin in the macro environment and what's going on now. And the second is around the three most thought-provoking questions that

Starting point is 00:02:21 Nick has gotten since the publication of his book layered money. Without any further ado, let's dive in. All right, Nick, welcome back to the breakdown. How are you, sir? I'm doing great. Thanks for having me back. Yeah, it's been good. I've been loving the newsletter. I was just singing its praises in the introduction. And what I want to do, so there's two big topics for today that could each be their own show easily. But the one that we'll kind of get to in the second part of the show is this really great post you had, the three most thought-provoking questions around Bitcoin. And basically what you had said in your piece is that these are the three questions that you've gotten most often or that just came up over and over again that you thought were really important.

Starting point is 00:03:04 And that's when I pinged you. I was like, hey, you know, it's been too long. You should come back and do a show and let's frame it around that. So I want to do that. And I'm excited to do that. But first, I want to talk about the sort of Bitcoin macro connection and what's going on in the larger economic landscape. this is something that you've been paying close attention to, you've been writing about,

Starting point is 00:03:22 and kind of what I want to do, instead of just talking about, you know, what happened with the Fed this week, although I do want to talk about that. I want to start a little bit farther back. And I want to use a couple of your pieces from the newsletter as framing for that. So in November, you wrote a piece called The Fed is a slave to rates traders. And I think it would be good to maybe start there. What was that piece about? What's kind of the underlying insight that you think is important for people in the Bitcoin in crypto space to understand?

Starting point is 00:03:47 understand as it relates to this sort of larger economic landscape? The Fed conducts monetary policy by talking first and then executing second. And so what the Fed has done over the last few months is they've signaled that inflation is running too hot for their preference and their plan is to tighten monetary policy. So then the rates market goes out and does the fed's business by pricing in the shape of the yield curve that the Fed is signaling for. And that's what I mean by the Fed is a slave to the rates market. The rates market is always factoring in every statement that comes out of the Fed as well as the data that we see as well. So the front end of the yield curve, which is money market rates, you know, out to two to five-year U.S. Treasury yields,

Starting point is 00:04:47 those yields have all been increasing over the last several months as the market expects the Fed to follow through on its hiking policy or its stated goals to hike interest rates. At the same time, the yield curve is flattening, sending a signal to the Fed that they're at a time. attempt to hike rates will be short-lived because future growth and inflation expectations are actually coming down as a result of either a slowing economy or also as a result of the Fed tightening policy itself. So the Fed is always looking at the rates market to basically do its bidding, but also give its signal on what to do. do next. And the Fed is, it can't be so nimble. It has to basically say what they're going to do over the next three to six months and then go do that so that it doesn't shock the markets. And so that's what we're seeing right now, basically, is that the Fed has all but guaranteed we're going to see these first six months of 50 basis points in interest rate hikes, basically.

Starting point is 00:06:08 basically a 25 basis point hike in March and another 25 basis points in June. That's what the market is expecting. And that's what I believe the Fed is definitely going to execute upon. So a whole bunch of things to unpack in terms of, I mean, is another way to look at this just since we're in the realm of visual metaphors, the rates curve is kind of showing the rock and the hard place of the Fed in the sense of needing to do something about inflation, but also the inevitability of markets kind of pricing in or expecting slower growth because of the thing they're doing about inflation. I mean, is that a fair characterization?

Starting point is 00:06:50 It is. It's a very good way to put it because the most important factor right now is the 7% headline inflation rate. That is why they have to hike rates. That's why they have to tighten monetary policy because price stability is one of their legislated mandates. So they have to go with that. And they're leading with that. But once they start hiking rates, it does slow down growth. And so they have to do that dance all the time. And it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's never-ending dance for the Fed. Let's move to your December piece because the December piece wasn't just about the Fed or rates or anything like that, although that was a piece of it. It was also sort of just other signals that

Starting point is 00:07:38 you saw that were flashing kind of economic slowdown. And there's, there's, it's important to parse these things out, right? There's on the one hand, expectations around monetary policy, but then there's other expectations around real economic growth and the impact there. So, what were you kind of writing about in December? What were you seeing and how has that played out over the last month or so? Well, in the real economy, what we're seeing is that the growth is slowing. So we're still growing across the world, but the growth rate is sort of slowing down. That is also represented by market moves in stocks and Bitcoin as well, where we see Bitcoin correlated with stocks in a, you know, a very real way.

Starting point is 00:08:27 It's also been correlated with the yield curve. That's why we start with the yield curve and, you know, talk about stocks and how it relates to the economy. These things all seem to be related to each other. And so I was able to flag a little bit of some bearish signals in stocks and Bitcoin that just show a lack of momentum, basically something we call bearish divergence, which is when we have higher prices, but lower momentum readings. And that's what we're seeing towards the end of the year.

Starting point is 00:09:00 Bitcoin's high in early 2021 versus its all-time high later in 2021, had lower momentum readings when we looked at that. And that's kind of a bearish signal called bearish divergence. So those were a couple of things that I flagged on the charts. And I do have a background in technical analysis. I think it's important to always look at charts, but charts are what I like to think is a pictorial representation of market behavior. And so it's really a behavior study and really trying to understand the behavior of buyers and sellers through the pictures. All of this gets us set up to the beginning of this year.

Starting point is 00:09:45 and Arthur Hayes publishes a piece called Maelstrom on January 6th. And what was interesting about that to me is that there was a lot of desire, I think, from some folks in crypto to sort of dismiss some of the more bearish predictions. But you dug into it and you kind of pulled out some of your, you know, added your own thoughts and takeaways. But what kind of what was the main argument of that piece and, you know, what resonated with you? The theme of the piece was spot on. That's why I decided to cover it. The theme was the Fed is absolutely going to hike rates. The hiking cycle is absolutely going to cause risk weakness, stocks and Bitcoin and the rest of crypto as well. And that when he sees some capitulation, he stands ready to buy because he's bullish long term.

Starting point is 00:10:46 But he thinks that in the short term, there's a washout coming. And we don't even know if the most recent washout was the one that he's talking about or if it is the ultimate, if that was the ultimate capitulation. But I really liked his piece because it brought in this idea that the Fed going for monetary policy tightening will be an all-powerful force in markets. And I specifically loved when he identified the false bullishness in crypto based off of network effects and technology. He's basically saying that that sort of bullishness cannot overcome the force that is the Fed. And when they tighten policy, the wave of capital that flows out of risk, including crypto, is so powerful that nothing is going to stop that.

Starting point is 00:11:53 And I thought that that was accurate. I try to shy away from price predictions in my publication. That's not what it's here for. It's here to be a research and analysis tool in the progression toward world. reserve currency for Bitcoin and looking at, you know, the asset class as it evolves in all these different ways. But, you know, me picking out Arthur's piece as a way to say that, hey, the bearish angle here has a lot of merit when it comes to looking at what's happening in the rest of the world. And I just liked someone that's in Bitcoin speaking knowledgeably about the

Starting point is 00:12:40 Fed. What I didn't agree with for the most part is that the Fed is going to have to reverse course in the sometime in the next six months. I think that that's way too short of a time frame. I actually think the Fed has a lot of runway here to hike rates that might go on for at least a year. That's just my initial projection. So one of the pieces of this that's important, and I think why some of the, some folks were dismissive of this piece, is there's still this idea or still questions around the relationship of traditional markets and crypto? And I, you know, I think part of the reason that the analysis is a little fraught right now is that on any given time on Twitter,

Starting point is 00:13:31 you have people who are trying to score cheap shots on any side by saying like, look, Bitcoin is just a high beta stock at this point or, you know, whatever, right? Like, there, There's sort of a, it's very reductive discourse, let's call it. What are your thoughts on the relationship, you know, how Bitcoin and crypto more broadly fit in the larger global economic context? Because I know on the one hand, you are not a, they're correlated forever person by any stretch of the imagination, but you're also someone who understands them that they or believes, it seems to me that Bitcoin is now a part of a larger global economic system and is going to, to be subject at least partially to some of the same forces. So I guess give me your thoughts on that sort of where, you know, where we stand in terms of correlation. So let's put it in three time frames just because let's address all three of them. The tick level, which is the second to second correlation, then let's call it like a three, a three to six month correlation and then a multi-year correlation. So on the tick level, what we're seeing now is an intense integration

Starting point is 00:14:42 of Bitcoin into the current market infrastructure, where you're seeing Bitcoin, the NASDAQ, and the yield curve tick with each other directionally and sometimes with the same magnitude, like, for example, on Monday, or, you know, some of these more volatile days. So that is a fascinating observation by itself. Bitcoin, as recent as I would say three years ago, was not really integrated at that tick level, even though it could show periodic three to six month or weekly directional correlation with stocks. But now we're seeing at the algorithmic level, the high frequency trading level, a strong correlation with Bitcoin and traditional markets. That is something that I'll say, I'll use the word unprecedented, but basically

Starting point is 00:15:43 means of the last year or two and a new phenomenon. Zooming out a little bit more, we're seeing pretty strong correlation with Bitcoin and risk in general, where risk has traded off in this latest cycle. But I think that the more that you zoom out, the less the correlation matters because Bitcoin is something very different. I think it's interesting also that the price of crypto relative to Bitcoin is correlated with the NASDAQ itself. So like when the NASDAQ falls, Bitcoin rises in price relative to the rest of crypto as the risk off movement translates from stocks into non-Bitcoin crypto. And that's something that's also really fascinating and something that we've seen at the tick level even. But I guess your question is the more we zoom out, the less I think it matters what the Fed is doing even or the NASDAQ.

Starting point is 00:16:53 is doing, and the more it matters, Bitcoin's geopolitical importance and global macroeconomic and societal importance and adoption rate, you know, heading to one billion users sometime over the next several years. That's the major theme here. And I think that still dominates over the longer term. Is then the increased correlation on the sort of short and medium term just based on overlapping trader bases, holder bases, buying, selling bases? Absolutely. It is, the integration is where is the Bitcoin held? And which portfolios is it in?

Starting point is 00:17:38 And when you rotate from one thing to the other, so the risk on risk off dynamic in markets means that when risk goes on, investors sell the dollar versus other currencies, they sell U.S. Treasuries and they buy stocks, Bitcoin, emerging market currencies, high-yield bonds, et cetera, corporate bonds. When it's risk off, they sell all those things and buy the dollar and buy U.S. treasuries. And so the fact that Bitcoin is showing correlation with those other assets means it's a tool used in the portfolios, but it's on the risk side of those portfolios for those investors. But that effect is so strong

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Starting point is 00:20:29 tightening. But obviously you can't know the future, but what are the signals that you're going to be looking for? Obviously, you know, watching the price of stocks, I think is a big signal. And what I'm looking for is to see a stability, even if it's a downtrend and even if we have volatility, a stability in which the Fed doesn't just flinch and say, oh, we changed our mind about the pace of hikes. I'm looking for that consistency from the Fed, basically despite whatever happens in risk markets. And that's, you know, absent a 50% correction or some dramatic crash, but even 20% moved to the downside, I would still look for the Fed to try to stay the course. That's what I'm looking for over the next few months. To project outside of that is a lot tougher, especially when we don't know what asset prices are going to do. But inflation

Starting point is 00:21:34 remaining high is going to put pressure on the Fed. What I'm also looking for, though, is signs that inflation will come down off of that 7% level drastically at some point over the next 12, to 24 months. And we'll be able to see those signs over the next six months, basically that the rate of change is decreasing and that other forward-looking indicators are starting to slow. So I do believe that the inflation, although transitory is not a great word and certainly a little bit controversial, transitory in the way that the Fed tightening and the supply chain working out as it does, as it will, will eventually cause inflation to come back down. That's probably a whole different episode in a couple articles on that because I know that's a little bit maybe out

Starting point is 00:22:34 of consensus, but I do think that inflation levels will come down dramatically, maybe back down to 3% by next year. And that, you know, that will allow the Fed to get back to a position of easy monetary policy that would be bullish for Bitcoin on the longer term. So I know you ask me three months, but that's kind of the next couple of year plus that I'm looking at. That's great. I'm very excited. We'll definitely have you back to review some of that stuff and get the update. But I want to turn now to this really, well, thought-provoking, piece that you had about the most thought-provoking questions in Bitcoin. And so I guess before I want to go through them one by one, but just give me the setup

Starting point is 00:23:18 in terms of, or our listeners, I guess, the setup. Like, you know, what is the context in which people are asking you these questions, sort of what's, you know, I just want to have a sense of how many different conversations are feeding into these things and what the genesis of them is. So I love my readers. They are very loyal and passionate and I appreciate them so much. What happened is having interaction with people on Twitter and with layered money for the past year has been amazing. And it has allowed me a platform to launch the Bitcoin layer so that I can reach out to these people who I really do believe have read layered money already and have joined me for some narrative as we go.

Starting point is 00:24:08 forward from that basically, you know, history course that layered money was. And so my relationship with the readers on Twitter turned into the Bitcoin layer on Substack. And through the Bitcoin layer, I early and often asked my readers, what do you guys care about? What do you want me to write about? And so I field emails from my readers. And this also happens with Twitter. DMs or mentions as well. But I get a lot of emails just as a reply back to some of my posts where I ask them, tell me what you think. And I respond, try to respond to every single person.

Starting point is 00:24:53 And sometimes the questions can be answered in an email, but sometimes the questions are so thought-provoking that they make it, you know, into my book. And then I think about them. I think about them on drives. They move up and down. cue, the writing queue, and sometimes they stick in the writing queue for so long because there's no easy answer. So that's where this post came from. These were questions that readers of the Bitcoin layer have asked me to write about for quite a long time that have been marinating, but there's just,

Starting point is 00:25:30 there's no all, there's no all encompassing answer to any of them, which is why I don't, I've never said, I've tried to say, this is what I think about Bitcoin privacy and this is my overall take or Bitcoin derivatives are bad or they're good and just write a take on that. No, they're so nuanced and that's why they're so thought-provoking is because they have all these different sides and really can't authoritatively be answered. Perfect. I love actually questions that can't authoritatively be answered. They're the best for podcasts. So let's go through these because I think that they're pretty seminal questions. So the first one that you that you had on this list is how important is privacy to Bitcoin's long-term survival and success?

Starting point is 00:26:19 So not at all important because we reached a trillion dollars without great Bitcoin privacy and even the FBI stepping in early in Bitcoin's life and saying we can track everything. But yes, matters very much because Bitcoin is a, a tool that is a human right because it's our right to communicate with each other and to value our labor in the way that we want. I believe that that's a fundamental human right. And so to be able to use that right in a jurisdiction where the government might not be approving of you to use that, it's essential. So that's why it's so thought-provoking is that you have The no, it's not that important. And yes, it's absolutely essential. Both at the same time,

Starting point is 00:27:14 Bitcoin's price can still rise exponentially without great privacy tools. But, you know, does that mean it's going to be something that's empowering for every corner of the planet in a way that it could if it had better privacy? No, that's something that's very important. So it's, It is, I hope that books are written about Bitcoin as a social tool. It's a concept that I'm exploring with some of my research and work and what do I want to write about going forward. It is a financial tool, but it is such an important social tool as well. And I know that's part of why you're here in the space and so many people are as well.

Starting point is 00:28:03 So Bitcoin privacy is essential for that social tool component, even though its nominal success has come without it. Part of what I love about that answer is that a totally different way to say that is it's going to be exactly as important as the Bitcoin community decides to make it in some ways, right? Like basically what you're kind of arguing is that it's clear based on how it's grown and the current stack. It is not a precondition for its financial success. However, to the extent that we think it is an important social aspect of Bitcoin, you know, a rights aspect, the justice aspect of Bitcoin, it's going to be as important as we make it. And I guess, you know, the question for you, which is sort of related, is do you think

Starting point is 00:28:59 it matters more in a CBDC world where cash is gone. Does Bitcoin have the privilege of, you know, basically does with something that's as private as cash, if that goes away, is there even more pressure on Bitcoin to potentially pick up that mantle in some way? So I don't actually think that cash is a driving force in the Bitcoin market. I think cash is, cash is for crime and tax evasion mostly. And I'm not saying that they go hand in hand, but it's used for crime. It's used for tax evasion and even the good tax evasion where all you're trying to do is hold on to the money that you're cycling through in your mom and pop business, regardless of what country you're in. So, but I don't think that cash going away makes Bitcoin privacy more important.

Starting point is 00:29:59 in a very direct way. I think that cash is kind of, it's already been mostly obsolete from, you know, most people's daily, you know, transactions in the West. And, you know,

Starting point is 00:30:13 most people basically give all their data to the financial companies when they transact electronically. So, you know, people for the most part in the West don't care that much. about financial privacy. And otherwise, they wouldn't be using credit cards, debit cards, and Venmo for every transaction

Starting point is 00:30:41 and PayPal, because all these things have been proven to be, you know, tracked by governments around the world. Super, super interesting. All right. Question two. How will Fiat versus Bitcoin power dynamics play out in geopolitics? This is basically the question why I'm here. I wanted to, you know, put this in there because the readers do want to know my answer to this. But this is a lifelong career decision that I've made to be here in Bitcoin research for the progression from, you know, a world without Bitcoin to a world where Bitcoin allows all this freedom of currency denomination.

Starting point is 00:31:24 And so watching the Bitcoin versus Fiat power dynamics play out over the next 20 years is literally why I'm here. And what is so fascinating and intriguing about Bitcoin to me. So watching it right now with El Salvador and then we just had the IMF saying, we don't think you should have done that with Bitcoin and you probably should undo that decision is textbook power dynamics. This is exactly what we would have expected to happen. If anybody had told you, a central South American country will adopt Bitcoin in parallel to the dollar or their local currency and they've historically received aid from the IMF, what would you expect the IMF to do?

Starting point is 00:32:16 10 out of 10 people that didn't have their head up their ass would have said, the IMF would say, you shouldn't do that. We don't believe in that move because it's the first couple chess moves. What happens when major nations start to make the same decision as El Salvador or start to have official mining policies as we might be seeing in Russia as of this morning, perhaps? There's so many things to watch. So it's not a great answer to the question, but the question is, answer is, let's watch it over the next 20 years. It's not going to happen tomorrow. This is the theme that I am here for to help cover with the Bitcoin layer and future books. This is pretty much the

Starting point is 00:33:09 most interesting question to me as well. I think the presence of an alternative, legitimate, non-sovereign money is a unique historical force that anyone that says they know how it plays out is full of it because there's not really any precedent to look back on. But just its very existence, even if not chosen over and over again, is in and of itself something that's super interesting. Any maybe just one kind of follow-up. There's a lot of bluster around Turkey, a little bit around Russia right now with Putin's comments. Are there any hotspots that you're watching more carefully than others without getting into the realm of predictions? I'm watching South America. That's where.

Starting point is 00:33:51 I'm watching because there's a history of populism and currency collapse there that is embedded in the culture. There's an understanding of Bitcoin with the people of Central and South America. And so I'm watching Latin America. I'm watching those countries to see what next. I do expect some dominoes to fall, basically, and that other nations will come on board with an official Bitcoin, a pro-Bitcoin policy, not necessarily legal tender, maybe legal tender, but very pro-Bitcoin. And then, you know, let's see how the IMF reacts to that and the West reacts to that. But I would say that's what I'm watching the most, not necessarily Russia, China,

Starting point is 00:34:43 India, or even anything in Europe. I'm going to hold myself back from going deeper on that. We'll do another show on that. one for sure. But last of these three most thought-provoking questions, what is the long-term impact of paper shorts and financial derivatives on the Bitcoin market? It can be large, but I do believe in the end, the digital cryptographic rails of Bitcoin that are native to the Bitcoin protocol and the Bitcoin software make it uniquely positioned to withstand paper products on a go-forward basis. And so we will see all sorts of shenanigans in the short term, but the fact that we can take final settlement off of these large Bitcoin exchanges today

Starting point is 00:35:41 with essentially absolute certainty, We see Coinbase.com go down, but how often do we see Cracken and Coinbase Pro and Gemini and Finance go down at the same time and suspend withdrawals? Never. That type of thing has never happened in modern Bitcoin history. And so, and the Bitcoin Protocol has also never gone down in modern history either. So that ability to withdraw your Bitcoin to final settlement and realize a price within 10 minutes is the more powerful force than any paper selling that can happen. And the question came from a discussion with Caitlin Long in which she got to demonstrate how paper selling and paper products can. can have a massive effect on the Bitcoin market and on any financial asset. And I believe that she, I believe that her analysis is correct,

Starting point is 00:36:55 but it doesn't mean that Bitcoin is really threatened over the long term. I really feel like a Bitcoin protocol itself is the most powerful force here. Awesome, Nick. This is all super interesting. This is kind of a funny last question, but what's your like, What's your honorable mention for most thought-provoking question? What's one that you kind of like haven't wrapped your head around yet, but maybe you're seeing more of or sort of hasn't entered the pantheon of these hugely important things,

Starting point is 00:37:24 but it's something that maybe is more topical or relevant right now? I'll give the honorable mention to a doctor here in Southern California, Scott Shreve. He hosted me for a Bitcoin meetup a few months ago, and he's one of the founding members of the Bitcoin layer. and I appreciate his support, but he's asked a question that other people have asked too. And it really comes back to chapter nine of layered money and a piece that I just wrote last week called Stablecoins

Starting point is 00:37:59 or a gateway drug to Bitcoin as World Reserve Currency. It's this idea that how will a Bitcoin and stablecoin credit system, evolve and how will a fractionally reserved system evolve that's based off of Bitcoin that cannot be created? Other things will have to be created in a fractional way. And then of course the implications of that. How is that progress when it's just duplicating the old system in a new way? And so it's really this, how will a credit system, fractional reserve system evolve under a Bitcoin standard is that's the one that I haven't answered yet because it's almost a second book. What we're talking about here is the next 10 to 20 years of digital money and how that system is going to evolve. So it is in part why I started the Bitcoin layer is to keep exploring topics like this,

Starting point is 00:39:14 keep writing about them, and keep thinking about them as we progress. Well, Nick, I love that you're writing so much and putting this out for anyone who isn't a subscriber yet. I'll make sure there's a link in the show notes. Thank you for the time that you take in general. And thanks for coming and hanging out today. Thank you for having me. I appreciate being back.

Starting point is 00:39:34 Just a quick wrap up after that great conversation, I want to double click on this point about Bitcoin and its relationship with equities. As you could probably tell during the interview, I find a lot of the point scoring that goes on on Twitter around why Bitcoin trades like an equity is pretty frustrating and lacking in sophistication when it comes to the analysis. I think Nick did a really good job of explaining that there are different timeframes on which an asset can be correlated to another asset. And that inevitably, because of the broadening of the Bitcoin holder base to institutions who also hold and engage with equities, treasuries, and all these other traditional finance assets, there is naturally going to be more correlation in the short and even medium term. There is going to be more responsiveness of Bitcoin to the same sort of forces, like whatever the hell the Fed's talking about at any given moment. That doesn't change nor undermine Bitcoin's long-term differentiation. and in fact, I would go so far as to say it doesn't necessarily change Bitcoin's long-term

Starting point is 00:40:35 differentiation even for those folks who are sellers in the short term, for whom Bitcoin is a risk-on asset. It is completely possible, in other words, to have a long-term, long-horizon view of Bitcoin as a person, even as an institution, and still be subject to forces that treat it like a risk-on asset in the short and medium term. My greatest wish, a fool's wish for sure, is that all of our discourse, even among people who disagreed would be based on the best possible arguments, not the sort of 280 character point scoring, but I won't hold my breath for that.

Starting point is 00:41:09 For now, I am simply thankful for first my sponsors, nexo.io, abra, and FTX for sponsoring this much deeper discourse that we get to have on this show, and of course to you guys for participating in it and being at the heart of it. Until tomorrow, be safe and take care of each other. Peace.

The Breakdown - The 3 Most Thought-Provoking Questions in Bitcoin With Nik Bhatia

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