The Breakdown - The Progressive Case for Bitcoin, With Jason Maier

Episode Date: November 28, 2022

This episode is sponsored by Nexo.io, Circle and Kraken. For our concluding episode of “Grateful for Bitcoin,” NLW chats with Jason Maier, who is currently working on a book on a progressive’s case for bitcoin. In this conversation, they discuss which progressive values align with bitcoin’s impact in the world, and why bitcoin has been so successful in remaining nonpartisan.  - Nexo Pro allows you to trade on the spot and futures markets with a 50% discount on fees. You always get the best possible prices from all the available liquidity sources and can earn interest or borrow funds as you wait for your next trade. Get started today on pro.nexo.io. - Circle, the sole issuer of the trusted and reliable stablecoin USDC, is our sponsor for today’s show. USDC is a fast, cost-effective solution for global payments at internet speeds. Learn how businesses are taking advantage of these opportunities at Circle’s USDC Hub for Businesses. - Kraken, the secure, trusted digital asset exchange, is our sponsor for today’s show. Kraken makes it easy to instantly buy 185+ cryptocurrencies with fast, flexible funding options. You’re covered by industry-leading security and award-winning Client Engagement, available 24/7. Sign up and trade today at kraken.com. - “The Breakdown” is written, produced by and features Nathaniel Whittemore aka NLW, with editing by Michele Musso and research by Scott Hill. Jared Schwartz is our executive producer and our theme music is “Countdown” by Neon Beach. Music behind our sponsors today is "Back To The End" by Strength To Last. Image credit:SEAN GLADWELL /Getty Images, modified by CoinDesk. Join the discussion at discord.gg/VrKRrfKCz8.  

Welcome back to The Breakdown with me, NLW. It's a daily podcast on macro, Bitcoin, and the big picture power shifts remaking our world. The breakdown is sponsored by nexus.io, Circle, and Cracken, and produced and distributed by CoinDes. What's going on, guys? It is Sunday, November 27th, and today we are wrapping up, grateful for Bitcoin with the discussion of Bitcoin politics. Before we dive into that, however, if you are enjoying the breakdown, please go subscribe to it, give it a rating, give it a review, or if you want to dive deeper into the conversation, come join us on the Breakers Discord. You can find a link in the show notes are going to bit.ly slash breakdown

pod. All right, so as I said, today we are wrapping grateful for Bitcoin. I hope you've enjoyed this as much as I have. And for this show, I'm joined by Jason Mayer. Jason is currently working on a book titled A Progressive's Case for Bitcoin, which is exactly what it sounds like. Jason is part of a growing trend of bitquiners who aren't willing to let it be memed as only something that libertarians or conservatives care about. In this discussion, we get specific about which progressive principles align with Bitcoin's impact in the world. And talk about why it's so remarkable that Bitcoin has remained a nonpartisan issue so far in D.C. All right, Jason, welcome to The Breakdown. How are you doing, sir?

Great. Thank you for having me. I'm looking forward to it. Yeah, me too. I mean, so this is a topic that I think more and more people are talking about it. I think it's super important. I think one of the strengths of Bitcoin is its nonpartisan nature or it's maybe a better way to put it as attraction to lots of different types of people for lots of different types of reasons. And I'm glad that people are starting to have that discussion. So I'm really looking forward to the conversation. But before we dive into the substantive things, tell us a little bit about yourself and what you do and how you got interested in Bitcoin in the first place. Yeah, it's a great question. So I am a math teacher. I teach at a private boarding

school. I teach high school math and do a little bit of computer science also. And that was sort of the passion of what I wanted to do since I was a little kid. In a lot of ways, I was living the dream, just teaching math and interacting with students and having a lot of fun. A buddy of mine got me into Bitcoin. He was just like, hey, what are you doing with your stimulus check? And you should go buy some Bitcoin with it. You know, of course, I had heard about Bitcoin. I had sort of my own false start years before.

But as soon as that happened, I said, okay, I'll think about it. And I bought $20 with the Bitcoin. And I proceeded to just dive in. I said, well, now I'm in. I need to learn more about it. And of course, like many other people, the more you learn, the more you want to learn. So that's sort of the introduction, just a good friend of mine who's like the smartest person that I know and also the weirdest person that I know is like, you should be buying Bitcoin.

And I just started with that like $20 purchase and it's just gone, you know, from there. So I went into the rabbit hole. I really approached it originally from a math and computer science angle. Like I want to know what kind of problems is solving and how it works. you know, I got hooked. Like I got a conviction for it from there. At what point in that journey? And I think it's very relatable. I think, you know, people always have their false start and then the time that it's the right time for them to, you know, it clicks for some reason. I certainly had that and I've talked about that before.

But as you sort of dove into it, at what point did you start to look at it through this lens of the politics around it or how different people see different kind of cases for it? How early in the journey did you start thinking about that? It's a great question. Before I ever even sort of tapped into like any political lens at all through looking at Bitcoin, like I had already spent quite a lot of time learning about it and getting, as I said, I had sort of a mathematical conviction. I looked at the technology from like a math and computer science standpoint. And through that lens, I already had a conviction. And so as I continued my journey to learn, I was getting these resources, reading these books, listening to

podcast, listening to interviews, learning as much as I could. And all of those, or maybe I should say many of those came with sort of a political tilt to it that didn't resonate with me. And so I was able to overlook the things that I disagreed with or maybe the subtle little innuendo or jokes about politics because I was really just interested in learning more about Bitcoin. And as it progressed, at some point in September of 2021, I know the date because I sent my buddy an email. I said, it would be really great if there was just like a resource that somebody can just learn the basics about Bitcoin. And if they happen to be a liberal or progressive person, some of this other sort of social layer stuff on top of the technology doesn't get in the way. Because I kind of

imagined somebody going about learning Bitcoin without the mathematical conviction and without the technological conviction that I had to start with and having to sort of confront these political and social layers that are on top of Bitcoin in ways that it. just don't resonate with them. And I said, well, it might be nice to have a resource out there that kind of teaches people the basics without upsetting them. So I think that's really the genesis of the idea of making that resource. I didn't think that it existed in the form that I envisioned it. So I set out to create it. Super interesting. What is your interpretation of how much is it factors intrinsic to Bitcoin that attracted a conservative or libertarian audience first, or is it simply

the fact that, like any social expansion of an idea, whichever community happens to take root in first, it's sort of going to self-replicate in a way, and there is more time for kind of the libertarian vision of Bitcoin to self-replicate before getting into a kind of a progressive vision of it. I think, you know, probably it's a little bit of bull. I do think that some of the messaging early on around Bitcoin and sort of the, okay, we're going to separate money from state. We're going to, that's automatically going to make the state smaller. This aligns with libertarian values, you know, in the most ideal sense. That makes perfect sense.

And so the fact that that happened first isn't surprising. And but I do think that, you know, the bulk of it is sort of the latter of what you said, which is once that culture gets established, then it sort of self-perpetuates. and the people who have created the culture around Bitcoin, and that this is what it means on a money level, this is what it means on a technology level, and now this is what it means on a social level, have the voice, have the power in the community.

And so I think that really, you know, my firm belief is that the technology is apolitical. It doesn't benefit one group over the other or anybody could be interested in it. And really, I'm trying to pierce that social layer that is going to prohibit some people from entering the space and learning more about a really amazing technology, just by making a resource that's accessible to them.

I do think it's the latter. There's a large group of libertarian conservatives who have sort of taken root in the space and have defined the culture. And we see that shifting. We really do, like, if you're paying attention to Twitter and other spaces and some of the podcasts that are going around, like there's a larger and larger segment of the population,

you know, about bitcoins who are more progressive, liberal leaning. And I think that's healthy for that. the space. Want to keep more profits when trading? Get the best possible prices and trade with 50% lower fees on NXO Pro. The new spot and futures trading platform uses aggregated liquidity of over 3,000 order books collected from multiple sources. Utilizing the complete NXO suite allows you to earn interest and borrow funds as you wait for the next trade setup. Visit pro.nexo.io. That's P-R-O-N-E-X-O-D-I-O and sign up today. This episode is brought to you by Circle, the sole issuer of USC, and a leader in crypto that's held to a higher standard.

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engagement teams are available for support 24-7. Buy crypto instantly with fast, flexible funding options on Crackin. Download the Cracken app on Google Play or the Apple App Store or visit crackin.com to join. Let's take a step back or maybe zoom out a little bit and talk about some term defining as relates to progressive. And the reason that I want to do this is because there's huge distinctions between how libertarians look at themselves versus how conservatives look at themselves, and even within the conservative movement, the extent to which you are sort of, you know, religiously aligned versus not, there could be huge variation there, right? So there's tons and tons of different things. And I guess one of the questions that is interesting is,

when you think of progressivism right now and sort of the progressive values that you're interested in exploring, how is it, you know, the same or different than either a classic sort of, you know, liberalism in America or what is portrayed as liberals or the left in America. And what is the relationship maybe even go even a step further, the relationship between progressivism and the state? Because obviously this is the key differentiator historically is belief in the state apparatus to do things. But I don't know that necessarily it's exactly the same for all progressives at this point. But yeah, I just love your take on kind of what progressivism you're bringing to this conversation.

I think that what is true is that there's a wide range, right? There's a whole spectrum of people who that I've really been put in touch with since starting the journey of writing the book and going out and promoting it and talking about it. And certainly there's a lot of people who are excited that I just like I don't agree with politically. So it's interesting that there's that wide range. Really my sense about Bitcoin and how intersects with progressivism is that there is a role for the state to play. I think that that role is important. I do not think that the profit motive solves every problem. There's a role for the government as an apparatus of society to help protect vulnerable people and set fair rules and to act as a mediator. There's

nothing about, let's say, a hard money standard or about Bitcoin as a reserve currency or about the dollar being pegged to Bitcoin or any of those things that necessitates sort of the collapse of the state. Like governments existed on a gold standard, and they can certainly exist with Bitcoin as being used in some capacity in the international monetary system. What could happen is that some of the categories and some of the definitions start to be transcended. What we view as progressivism right now, or like I view myself as a liberal person now, might change over time, right? I think that there are flaws in the system right now that really disadvantage certain groups of people. And under the current system, it makes sense for me to support things like increasing the minimum wage

or like supporting unions, things that like people like me support, right? The liberal progressive people, those things might not necessarily be necessary if we totally transform over the next 50 to 100 years what it means to use money and have fair money. And so I'm open to the idea that sort of categories and definitions change over time. But my one view right now, which is sort of the overarching thing, is that traditional liberals, progressives, people in the establishment, like we're talking about like elected leaders and politicians, are trying to all work within a system that is broken and unfair. Trying to tweak that system just to make it a little bit more fair.

Like if you don't realize that there's another option out there, it's sort of a way to step out of the world that is and into a world that's sort of more aspirational and what could we do with a fair monetary technology, then those systems make sense, right? Yeah, we're going to tweak this. We're going to improve this. going to try to make this more fair. We're going to pass a law. All of that makes sense to, like, within the normal legacy financial system, the political structure as it exists. And then who knows what's possible if we step out from that or we start to examine other options.

This is great. So where I wanted to go next was a little bit of your critique, or the progressive critique call it, of the existing system. And then I kind of want to talk through the elements of the progressive case that you start to outline your book. But let's start with, I think you phrase that is the untold cost of dollar hegemony. Let's talk about the sort of the progressive critique that underlies the book. It would be great to hear more about. Yeah. And I think that really the book, as I started to sit down and actually put words on paper, it's interesting how intertwined like the argument is between, okay, what like what's the value Bitcoin is having? And you can't really understand that without really fully tackling like what is the current system and how

does it work? So first and foremost, most people are swimming in water and they don't realize it, right? They're part of a system. They're part of a political, economic, military system, and they don't really realize how those things are connected. And they don't really have to think about most, let's say, most Americans or most people in the West don't really need to think about money in a real deep way. So the book is sort of like 50-50 intertwined. Like this is the system as it exists now, through a lens, which maybe you haven't examined it yet. And this is how Bitcoin sort of helps. So the idea behind the untold cost of dollar hegemony is that the United States needs to.

It's not just sort of an unfortunate add-on to an otherwise healthy system. Embedded and interwoven into the system, the United States needs to go all around the world and protect dollar hegemony and use military force to do that or use political leverage to do that or force different actors on the international geopolitical states to do things that they don't necessarily want to do, all because we have the World's Reserve currency, and we want to protect that and protect all of the advantages that come with it. So I don't think that there's a real progressive appetite for just blindly thinking that the United States are blindly accepting that we're the good guys and that what we do all around the world is necessarily just good.

And the progressive mindset isn't like, oh, well, we're doing good all around the world. And like, you know, obviously we're the good guys. It's more of like, let's be a little skeptical about our influence in the world and how we're using it. And I don't think that there's a lens now in sort of mainstream political discussions about like the role of money and like the structure and the technology of money and how that doesn't just support like the military political, geopolitical pressures that we put on other countries. but it actually requires it. We need to do this in order to sort of maintain the system that we've created. And that's a different lens than what you probably get from mainstream sources. One of the things that I think is interesting and has always sort of shaped my own politics

is that basically the gap between domestic and foreign policy as relates to partisanship, I think that as soon as you start to look globally and think about foreign policy implications, it can often create uncomfortable kind of fractures, right? Like there's not necessarily super clear lines. There's conservative hawks and there's conservative doves for different reasons and likewise, you know, with progressives with liberals. So it's super interesting. I want to talk almost summarizing some of the core, the foundational pillars of

this sort of progressive lens of social justice equity and peace that you're discussing about the arguments for Bitcoin. So on the blurb, you had helping marginalized communities, supporting oppressive, people's alleviating wealth inequality, protecting the environment, making wars less common and less deadly. In whatever order you want, let's dive into high level what some of these base level progressive cases for Bitcoin are and how Bitcoin actually does this. Sure. So I think that it is sort of a rallying cry for liberals and progressives right now to talk about wealth inequality and wealth concentration. We hear a lot about sort of top level, okay, this is just greedy,

wealthy people advantaging themselves through being able to manipulate the rules. We do not get to hear about the contillion effect and sort of how having the government in control of how money is created and how money is printed and how that gets distributed throughout an economy contributes to that wealth inequality. So the very idea that inflation is disproportionately hurting poor people, systematically helping richer people and the more well off is not part of the conversation in sort of the mainstream liberal dialogue, right? It just isn't. So all of the things that you mentioned, Bitcoin has the potential to help.

It's not as if I'm portraying it as like, you know, a guarantee, but certainly better understanding just the very concept of money creation and what does it mean to, to print, you know, dollars out of thin air versus, you know, having some sort of proof of work system that creates a monetary value is an important conversation. It's not the only reason inflation exists, and it's not the only reason rich people get richer, but it is definitely part of the conversation that's worth having. In much the same way, I'm trying to remember all of the things that you mentioned, but, like, you know, there's marginalized people all over the world.

Most people live under authoritarian rule and don't have access to sort of the rule of law, sound money where they can trust that their money will stay in the bank, or they even have a bank, or they have the sort of financial rails that people on the West take for grants. And again, the book is targeted towards people who pretty much are at zero on Bitcoin or any of these technologies. So it's to get them to think about these things in a different way, right? You may think Bitcoin, as an American, you may think Bitcoin is just an investment to make you money or to get you rich. But really, for all sorts of people all over the world who need a reliable way to transfer or store their wealth, it's a groundbreaking technology that can't be censored and it can't be confiscated in the same way that fiat money can.

making wars less costly is really about transparency between the government and the people, right? Like, we, you know, America is currently in conflicts right now where we are not seeing sort of the cost in blood or treasure in a sense where, you know, how are we paying for the wars besides deficit spending or borrowing money and printing money to accomplish that? imagining a world and a Bitcoin standard really allows us to say, okay, well, you can go to war if you want to or if you need to, but you really need to be able to justify it to the people who are voting for you and paying the taxes and understanding like what those costs are. And right now, the government, America or otherwise, can really obfuscate like the cost

of conflict and sort of push that off. So it's not, you know, we can fight a war for 20 years and really not have to, like, you know, the average American is not necessarily sacrificing in any meaningful way. Sort of having a hard money peg or having a Bitcoin standard or having some sort of way to hold the government accountable for their decisions is an important tool. And again, aspirational, right? Like, there's no guarantee that this will work out the way that that I'm saying. It's just sort of one thing to have a conversation about is that if the government just can't print money to go to war, then it's going to, people are going to have to think, more deeply about why and when we go to war.

So I don't know if that checked off all of the things that you listed. Amazing how many of them are you remembered. The one big one that is actually perfect to kind of keep as its own thought is environment. What your take on the state of the environmental discourse around Bitcoin is and sort of how progressives interact with that. Right after the introductory chapter is the very first thing I tackle is the environment in its own chapter.

It's the longest chapter of the book. And I just think it's obviously for anybody, paying attention. It's the number one thing. If anybody in my target audience who's like a progressive liberal person who knows very little about Bitcoin, they know anything at all. They know it's bad for the environment. That's what they're being told by mainstream media. It's what they're being told by liberal politicians. So I think this is really the number one piece of fud that needs to be addressed. And so there's great people in the space doing really important work and I just try to highlight the fact that, you know, Bitcoin is important. It's an important

use of energy. I think a lot of people go about these conversations, assuming that because Bitcoin is just useless, that any energy it uses is a waste. So I think step one is always to just highlight what are the important attributes of this technology and why is it worth the energy that it uses. And then highlight, you know, all of the things that are important, which is in the scheme of things, it doesn't use that much energy compared to other things. That's fine. But really, highlighting the fact that it has potential to help bootstrap green and renewable energies, it has potential to mitigate methane emissions and really help the environment and become carbon neutral. It has an opportunity to sort of be the best, like the premier example of

demand response for intermittent energy uses. So you want to build out green energy sources and they're intermittent because the sun doesn't always shine and the wind doesn't always blow and then Bitcoin can respond to those intermittency issues. So there's a lot of great benefits to sort of stabilizing the power grid, building out green energy, reducing methane emissions that are all potential. And I think that if you care about the environment and you realize the importance of Bitcoin, then there's room in the space to have more voices that say, okay, well, these are all potential opportunities for us, and how do we take advantage of those opportunities? Love it. I think one of the most important things is starting that conversation, not just with

the, here's all the ways that Bitcoin can actually help, but you lose the conversation immediately if people just don't believe that Bitcoin is a legitimate use of energy, and you have to start there. Yes. As we kind of turn the corner and start to wrap this up, what is your perception of the partisanship around the Washington discourse in Bitcoin? What's your perception to what extent progressives are open to it in the halls of Congress and the Senate? Yeah, it's a good question. I think that, you know, Bitcoin, certainly Bitcoin has allowed me to sort of transcend some of the political categories already that I had for myself. You know, like I never imagined, you know, three years ago that Ted Cruz would ever say anything I agreed with, right?

But when he talks about Bitcoin, I tend to agree with him. I think that there is potential there. And I think that one of the subsections in my book is, you know, I think I think I, I call it the so far bipartisan approach. I'm very happy that Lumas and Gillibrand work together to create this legislation that sort of exists out there and is a starting framework for politicians to consider on a national level. So there is potential there. I do worry, and one of the reasons I wrote the book, is because I don't want Bitcoin to become a political football. I don't want it to be one of those ideas that if you know what you think about Bitcoin, then I'll

I'll be able to predict like 12 other things that you also believe because we're so polarized. So the hope is that by getting this resource out there to people who are just starting their journey or just really don't know much about Bitcoin, but what they want to learn about it, is just to raise the awareness among people on the left and like, you know, the voting population. And hopefully that puts a little bit of pressure so that it doesn't become one of those things that, oh, well, if Ted Cruz likes it, then I have to dislike it. It just becomes a more open dialogue in that we can understand, just like the internet or email or anything like that,

that this is not really a partisan issue. Like, we can figure out how to support this and encourage development in the space in a way that helps America, and it doesn't have to become a partisan back and forth. So I think there's potential. I do worry about the state level, too, where certain states are more amicable towards Bitcoin mining, and those tend to be red states for now, but I do see potential for that broadening out also.

So there's a lot of hard work to be done. And that's sort of what I'm hoping to do is educate people the best way that I can so that the conversation can involve more than just one side, that everybody's involved in that conversation. Amazing. Well, Jason, I'm so glad you're taking this project on. For people who want to keep track of it, where can they find you? Yep.

So I'm on Twitter. I am at C-Jason-Mair, M-A-E-R. If you want to follow me on Twitter, that would be great. I also have a website set up Bitcoinprogressive.com. So if you want a little bit more information about the book or you want to pre-order it, you can do that. The book is related to come out this summer, this coming summer. So super excited to get it out and really excited about all of the support people have

been giving me throughout the space. So, and thank you. Awesome, Jason. All right. We'll look forward to talking more soon. Awesome. Thanks. All right, guys.

Back to NLW here. I'm extremely glad to see more. progressive voices discussing Bitcoin. It really is one of the more remarkable things about this whole environment that Bitcoin has not just been chomped up into some partisan football. Right now, if you look at the Congress and you look at the Senate, you can't guess what someone's going to think about Bitcoin and crypto just based on what their party affiliation says, and that's very, very different than just about anything else. I think it's important that people who are from all different political perspectives keep explaining why it matters in their framework and in their context. To me,

that's the best way to ensure that it doesn't become just another partisan topic like everything else. Thanks to Jason for your work both on the show, but also, of course, in this book that you're writing. All right, guys, well, that wraps the second edition of Grateful for Bitcoin. I hope you have enjoyed this set of interviews. Extra thanks to Cracken for helping make it possible. And let me know on the Discord or on Twitter if this is something you want to hear more about. For now, I want to say thanks thanks one more time to my sponsors, nexo.io, Circle and Cracken. And thanks to you guys for listening. Until tomorrow, be safe and take care of each other. Peace.