The Breakdown - The Three Layers of AI Agent Commerce with Jordan Liu | The Breakdown

Episode Date: April 9, 2026

x402 just got a lot bigger. The Linux Foundation is now backing it — and maybe Amazon, Google, Stripe, Mastercard, and American Express along with them. In this episode, David sits down with Jordan Liu, co-founder of AIsa — one of earliest builders in the x402 ecosystem, with over 20 million microtransactions already processed. TIMESTAMPS: (00:00) Introduction (01:42) What AISA Builds (02:55) X40 Goes Linux (07:30) Nexo Ad (08:07) Adoption and Micropayments (19:58) Nexo Ad and Blockworks IR Promo (21:38) Adoption and Micropayments (Con’t) (25:06) Protocols Roadblocks Future FOLLOW GUEST › Jordan Liu (AIsa) — https://x.com/AIsaOneHQ FOLLOW THE SHOW › David — https://x.com/dcanellis › The Breakdown — https://x.com/TheBreakdownBW SPONSORS › NEXO Nexo is the premier digital wealth platform. Receive interest on your crypto, borrow against it without selling, and trade a range of assets. Now available in the U.S with 30 days of exclusive privileges. Get started at http://nexo.com/breakdown - Get top market insights and the latest in crypto news. Subscribe to the Blockworks Daily Newsletter: https://blockworks.co/newsletter/ DISCLAIMER As always, remember this podcast is for informational purposes only, and any views expressed by anyone on the show are solely their opinions, not financial advice.

Maybe in the next like 12 months, we probably see lots of autonomous agents become real economic actors. They can make a decision, make approaches. We are seeing agents actually paying resources to complete tasks. Not so not just moving the tokens, not mentioned the stable coin, you know, the Mimcoin, but paying for the models, search API data and services. How are you going to sell to the AI agent if you're merchants, if your sales service provider, You got to make your service or even like a website, this kind of interaction layer, very agent-friendly. Previously, every internet website designed for human, you got a beautiful, you know, picture,

photos like, you know, headline to attract the user. But right now you don't need that. You only need a... This episode is brought to you by Nexto. Step into a new era of digital wealth. Earn interest on your digital assets. Borrow against them without selling and trade all in one platform. Get started at necto.com slash breakdown.

Nothing said on the breakdown is a recommendation to buy or sell securities or type. This podcast is for informational purposes only and interviews expressed by anyone on the show are opinions, not financial advice. Host and guests may hold positions in the company's funds or projects discussed. Okay, welcome everybody to The Breakdown. I'm your host, David Canellis. Today we are chatting all things agentic commerce and our very special guest is actually building in that space. Jordan Liu co-founder of AISA. Welcome to the show. Thank you very much, Davey. Thanks for having me.

Hi, everyone. I'm a founder of AISA. Yeah. Cool. Yeah. Maybe we could, I mean, I could probably try. try to explain what your platform is doing, but maybe you could just give a rundown of what ICE is doing in the agenda commerce space? Sure, definitely. Yeah. In a simple way, ISI is building the capability layer and payment layer for the agent economy.

So for instance, if you're running any AI agents right now like open-cloth or cloud call, you can actually, we can enable your agent to access to the AI resources from like, like, Lajjangional tokens, license data, API calls, and we embed all the payments, each of the, you know, API call into the payment event. So all in, you know, in one event. So that's actually what we do. So I suppose the, like the platform myself is taking a cut of those transactions or something like that.

Like, how does that work? True. Yeah. So from the payment layer, yeah, we have, you know, we're supposed to just like Visa, right? You have this kind of transaction fee. And on top of that, we, because. we also aggregates or the resources an agent need to complete a certain task. So there is a take rates on top of that.

Okay, okay, cool. So I suppose a good place to start, like the news this morning. I mean, in between the time that I recorded, the monologue portion of the show, and today, I mean, it was only a few days. But then all of a sudden there's been a big, I don't recall it a shakeup, but there's like a repositioning of the governance of the X402 Foundation to come under. the stewardship of the Linux Foundation.

And I'll just read through because originally the X-40 Foundation, it was launched by Coinbase, and then they kind of brought Cloudflare into the fold. But then all of a sudden, there's the Linux Foundation. Now in the release, there's also Stripe with initial intent and support being expressed by, I mean, it's a long list. There's ad yen, Amazon Web Services, American Express, ampersend. dot AI, base, circle, coinbase, Fiserve, Google, Cacao Pay, Mastercard, Microsoft, Shopify,

Salana Foundation, Stripe, a bunch of others. I wonder your take, because I mean, I think when we chat a little bit before the show, but you've been building in the space for over a year. So that might have even predated the X402 Foundation. I'm not even sure. But now we're out the other side. So I'm wondering your take on what this means for agentic commerce in general. We are lucky to be one of the pioneer into the X-Forto ecosystem,

and we are so happy to see the family grow. And we are, yeah, we are real, I need to actually builder on top of the X-4-2. We were one of the largest X-Fo2, like, you know, a builder in terms of top-setter and top-server. Overall, we have transact over like 20-mediate micro-transaction. It's all production usage. I can explain more later. So yeah, that's actually we have been, you know, building on Exfo2.

So the, yeah, if we come back to the, you know, authentic commerce, you know, perspective, there's definitely, you know, a very broad, you know, subject, a broad topic. And but for, we can divide into like actually two main category. One, we call it human-centric transaction, the commerce. We're talking about the e-commerce, like, you know, your agent, you know, if you, if I go to chat,

P.T. Ask them to recommend you to a pair of sneakers. There's like a flight ticket, something like that. That's actually we call human-centric transaction. We're usually it's large check size, like $10 for a cup of coffee, $100,000 for flight, right? Then what we see actually that AI-native use cases is this kind of agent-centric, you know, AI-native transaction.

We are talking about one API call for large-a-Longru model, inference token, API, data, data API. So we are talking about this kind of micro transaction, one sense of fraction of a penny. So that's actually we are focused on, this kind of a micro transaction initiated by these kind of agents. And I think there are lots of interesting thing

happening on these kind of native use cases. That's how I saw and the rest of the name, actually, the brands, mentioned about our own, you know, building towards. So that's my take. Yeah. It seems like it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, the Linux foundation. It's not, it's not, it's not, it's, the Linux foundation has been, like, totally against crypto or, or, or anything like that, but it does seem like it's, it's, it's at least moving forward in a quite significant way in, in the, in the, in the past couple of

weeks. Um, and like, I'm just wondering, like, if we could go back to, like, the, the, the, the, the, the the usage that you're seeing flow through ISO, because, because it's, it's, It's funny. Like, crypto has always been trying to bring about adoption. And if you go back 10 years, the whole thing was merchant adoption. And what I find really cool about the AI meta in general is that it is kind of rebooted the whole thing because you, on one hand, you need to inspire at least like agent developers to bake the on-chain payments within their own agents.

So there's, you're actually trying to inspire developers to, to adopt X402 and maybe MPP. But also, you have to get merchants themselves to accept stable coin payments and everything like that. So we're almost back to 2015 when we're trying to get everybody to start using this stuff in commerce. So I'm just wondering, like, what you're really seeing in terms of adoption. Maybe like at the end of last year compared to now, is it, is it change very much? Step into a new era of digital wealth with Nexo, the Premier Digital Assets Wealth Platform.

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Do your own research. Yeah, I will say there are a few, actually, fundamental change in, you know, whole ecosystem. I'll say number one, the men compared to even a few months ago, you know, the agent ecosystem itself actually changed, you know, dramatically, right? We see how open-cloth change everyone's definition of our agents, right? Even before that, we have to use, like, chatypti or even other, like, you know, a cloud to, as a, you know, managed, hosted kind of a solution platform to chat. And now with the open cloud, everyone can have, you know, has their own, like, self-hosted agent, and they can, you know, consistently work with this kind of heartbeat scheme, right?

So I think that's one of the biggest change from the Asian ecosystem. Another thing, I have to say, because we are talking about agentic payments, the payment currency itself will definitely will be the stable coin for the for the for the for the you know, agentic, you know, transaction. We see starting from circle and you go in IPO. Everybody's saying the real adoption for the real, you know, of the stable coin into the real commerce, the real world, all the adoption of the stable coin. So I think that's the main and the infra itself, right, with the many different chance,

you know, being launched and the transaction codes for every, you know, transfer become, you know, cheaper and cheaper. So I think with the infra, with the agent ecosystem itself, now at this time, we are, you know, know, we are talking, when we are discussed, the agent payments is totally different from the world, you know, like even one quarter ago, end of last year. So I think that's the main change from what we view. Yeah. Yeah. And I'm curious your take about, you know, this, because we're always trying to, like, classify usage to, like, try and find what the real usage is. And, I mean, I just jumping off the agenda thing, more broadly like this,

conversation about meme coins and I know this is even a year ago that it was relevant but a lot of it was like well yeah chains are seeing a lot of adoption but a lot of it is meme coin speculation and is that even is that even useful and it's like well meme coins are actually kind of like the perfect stress test for these systems so in lieu of like real quote unquote real trading it's okay to have pure speculation on meme coins um but then like because like uh AI and viability coding has come around. I'm, I no longer really, I'm starting to see a difference between users, like real users and developer use cases.

Because when I, when I look at people discussing the volume on X402, that, oh, it's just developers testing things. And it's like, well, actually, users are developers now because they can vibe code. And if you're building agenetic systems, then, you're. you might be a user, but you're a user developer. So like when you're going out and trying to attract people to use ISO, like how are you viewing that? Are you trying to attract developers?

Or you're trying to attract users, I guess is a way to frame that. Right. I think that's a very, very interesting question. Because we are talking about one fundamental question here. Actually, who are the agents? You know, who are actually driving this kind of, you know, use cases, right? So first of all, from what we see, right now we see three types of activity, right? The first one is that this kind of what we call incentive-driven usage, like, you know, test farming, right?

Proof-of-concepts. That's the real activity, but they are not real demands. And secondly, you also mention about this kind of experimental usage, right? The developer, you know, wiring agent to pay for API, you know, testing workflow, trying out this kind of X-4-2 or similar primitives, right? But the third category, which is the most important one, is the production usage. And that we say from ISA perspective, actually, that's already happening. And yeah, we are saying agents actually paying resources to complete task. So not just moving the tokens, not mentioned the stable coin, you know, the Mimcoin,

but paying for the models, search API, data, and services. So I think that's the key distinction is that the real use case is not just just this kind of a, you know, moving the tokens on, you know, on, you know, a blockchain. It's the agent paying for the resources to get it worked down. And our definition of the agents, actually, we have two kinds of agents right now. We have this kind of individual agents like OpenCloud. If you're using any of them, they can directly come to ISA platform to, you know, get immediately sign up, get an API key, and access all the resources they need.

And at the same time, we also serve those kind of enterprise, agents, the developer driven agents. They can be like a financial research agent, news aggregate agents, like HR agents, language learning, agents, yeah, they all come to our platform to access to the resources. So yeah, from our, you know, the use cases on our platform, yeah, we are targeting the real developer or the developer developed, you know, AI agents.

So that's actually what we see right now. Yeah, cool, it's interesting. And it's like I can only come at this from like trying to understand the economies of scale of this. Because if ICER is focusing on the purgentic side of it rather than the e-commerce side of it, then they are going to be quite small transactions, like literally micro-transactions. So it's like how are you viewing growth in that context? because, I mean, yeah, you need to have a ton of volume in order to really bring in a lot of revenue. So when you're looking at, well, what is the most important metric to watch,

to know that the actual market is growing in a way that can be tapped? I mean, because what everyone comes to is, well, is the growth of unique sellers is the most important. So which merchants or which API providers are actually selling to agents? Is there more to it than that? Like, how do you view that? So in terms of, you know, let's put it this way. Moving forward, actually, there are two kind of economic actors. You know, humans being the legendary kind of economic actors.

And our agents, autonomous agent next stage, will be the economic. actors. So what they consume, you know, like the basic one will be the large-juncto-lar-juncturnal inference tokens, being there, build their, you know, electricity and water. That's a commodity. They are going to consume for every single task. And then when agents become, you know, are more capable, yeah, they need to access to all the resources. We have been mentioned data, search API, even SaaS tools. They are going to be on. bundle into a new from like subscription based $20 $100 per seat into every single API call or function call. Let's say if I want to if my agent wants you know sales agent want to access

to the dashboard for the last 30 days previously I probably go to hot on you know hotspot or Salesforce and I pay $100 per you know per seat per months but not right now I only pay like 50 cents for that one simple API in a function call. and gave me the dashboard for the last 30 days, my sales report. That's it because SAS is very much like a database plus that, you know, that the UI, right? So every single, we say this kind of a digital resources

will be unboundled into this kind of pay per use. If we are talking about the agent become the economic actors, which they are becoming already. So yeah, they're going to be the human century, you know, activity, e-commerce, physical goods, and they are digital goods for AI agents. Yeah. So I would say that would be unpaired in a future. Yeah, it does seem inevitable.

It may say it's very intuitive that that would be the case. And like I'm wondering, like, I'm sure that you speak with developers and people actually coding agents and you're probably using them too. So like, I'm wondering, like, how easy is it for agents to, or even developers to trust agents to be able to handle, like, crypto at scale? I guess is the question because, I mean, on one hand, I can see how agents would actually make using crypto much easier because there's no, like, fat-fingered mistakes and everything like that. But also, it's all on chain, so you can't exactly roll it back. So I'm wondering, like, how were developers seeing that in real time? And is that like a problem for you?

Like, how have you dealt with that as a company? The key things actually for developer, or it's, you know, their agents to handle a wallet, either a fiat wallet, a credit card, virtual credit card or crypto wallet, as you mentioned, is to have a guard wheels. you have the spending control. And well, definitely you need to have this kind of a KY CEO. Now it's KYA, know your agents. That's kind of identity layer.

Then you got have this kind of a spending control. You can easily, you know, actually to set up, you know, what's your daily budget and which kind of a service category you can consume. And in which kind of a, in what kind of a specific workflow, a limit, you would come back to me, come back to, you know, the human in the loop process to get approval before you can proceed. So that's exactly what we have been designing a whole kind of a process. And in terms of how actually they can go to any like service provider to access to the access to the resources, now there is a very important concept that how you're going to, you know, sell to the AI agent,

if you're a merchant, if you're a sales service provider, you got to make your service or even like a website, this kind of interaction layer very agent friendly, you know, being specifically you, you know, before you have, you know, previously, you know, everything, every internet website design for human, you got a beautiful like, you know, picture, photos, like, you know, headline, you know, to attract the user. But right now you don't need that. You only need a very like, a markdown file, machine readable, very structured, you know, description, what my service is about. What's my, what's my service label agreement, latency, price, and everything in that kind of structure, you know, format. So, yeah.

This has been changing for the past like a few months and we say we'll be dramatically change how this kind of interaction service provider versus the agent will be evolving. So yeah, that's very interesting to say we're, you know, and we're seeing right now. Let's take a moment to talk about NXO. NXO delivers a premier digital assets wealth platform designed to help clients build, manage and preserve their wealth, earn interest on your digital assets, access crypto-back credit without selling your holdings, trade with advanced tools, all supported by 20, 24-7 client care. Now back in the US, Nexo offers new clients 30 days of exclusive

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risk. Terms and conditions apply. Do your own research. I mean, I'm just trying to kind of like get a feel for what the demand is for, you know, data owners, APLI providers to even make the switch. Because a lot of this seems very useful from a user perspective, especially if you do not have enough capital to pay for an actual seat for an API to actually gain fully fledged access to the data. So you'd rather do micro payments for what you actually need to use. But from the SaaS side, you would almost want to hold on to the subscription model because you could hardly charge more for the same amount of usage. And I understand that you can effectively make more money if you open it up. But I'm just wondering, like, is it going to be this free flowing thing where people do,

where API providers do just capitulate and adopt agentic? commerce or how difficult do you see this road to actually having this the new internet without the pain of subscriptions? I will say it's inevitable and we already see some pioneers, even some big, big names like even Twitter. Previously, you know, Twitter, if you want to, you know, develop something to access to the Twitter API, then you have to pay like minimum $200 and sometimes $5,000 per month per seat. And not. Now, Twitter already opened up this kind of paper use, you know, price and model. And we see some even in a crypto in a crypto world, Coin Gecko already also opened up this kind

of a paper use model. And you see this is, you know, from this kind of a game theory, right? You always have some pioneer to open up this kind of resource, open up, you know, their, change to their business model, price and model to serve this kind of a new user, new kind of category of the users on the internet. And they see more adoption from that. Then that will drive from the competition will drive this other competitor to follow. And for example, one of the, you know,

SOS vendors called Similar Web, if you go to CloudCode or even Manus, they already sign a, like, I don't know, some kind of a partnership. So normal user, you can directly ask CloudCode to track some kind of web traffic in traffic through similar web, but you don't have to pay the subscription fee anymore. So we see actually each of the category from data, SaaS, well, naturally, you know, this kind of cloud services or, you know, large, you know, a provider, they already provide this kind of a paper usage, kind of, you know, a price model. So it's happening already. It's, it's not a theory. Yeah. It's, it's very compelling. Very, it's very, I don't want to use the term

reassuring, but it's just, it's really nice to see. It's, it's not large amounts of capital being moved and it's not trading and it's not, you know, it's not hedging and it's, it's not weird financial games. It is actually the start of a, of a, of a, of a, of a, of a, of a, of a, of a, of a, of a, of a, commerce loop, uh, within the internet. And it's, it's, it's very nice to see. Um, so I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm wondering like how you view this divide between x402 and mp and stripe and tempo um because when tempo came out with mp everyone there was immediately a lot of reaction that this is much more useful and and simpler than than x402 um but you're you're building with x402 every single day so i'm curious your take on really the differences between the two yeah got it so yeah uh we are not

I'm just building on Expo2. We're also building on MPP right now. And here is why. I guess the first question people when talking about export to MPP is, you know, they will ask, are they competing? So from actually our view, we don't think they are competing. I think they are different layers of the same stack. So yeah, we tend to think about agent payments

in like three layers. Number one is actually the we call it communication layer or signal layer. That's actually how the service provider request the payments by simply return a status code called F-O2, which being defined like 30 years ago, three decks ago, by the creator of the HTTP IP protocol. And that's the first layer. The second layer is actually the settlement layer. That's actually how the money actually moves.

like you can be like crypto or fiat or virtual card, you know. And actually the fundamental, you know, the underneath layer is actually another layer, the important layer is actually the control layer. Define this kind of identity, permissions, budget, you know, we talk about just now. And in our view, yeah, X42 is very strong on the, you know, like signal layer, the communication layer, especially for the crypto-native payment system. And NPP is broader in terms. of the settlement options, like including, like, you know, they can, you know,

fiat and state both fiat and stable coin. So, but the real question is not, like, it's not which protocol wins. I think the real question is who actually owns the full stack of the machine, you know, commerce in the future. Because the agent doesn't just, you know, need to pay, actually, they need to decide, authorize, execute, and settle in one flow. Another, you know, At all, I would say, is because X-Fo2 is an open-source protocol. You already say many brands, a company, a startup, actually big or small, they already joined this ecosystem to build. And we are honored to be one of their early ecosystem builder as well.

And MPP is very much within a stripe ecosystem. So relatively, you know, close-loop, you know, ecosystem, but we see how these two will converge in the future. So that's why actually from ISOP perspective and many other startup builders, we actually built both. We see they have lots of similar features and they have different kind of use cases. So yeah, that's actually how we choose to build into the two. two ecosystems.

Yeah. It's almost a meme that the agents will decide which payment rails they use. And, you know, which, I mean, I think the Bitcoin Policy Institute put out a research report that even they would choose Bitcoin over stable coins. And I'm skeptical if that's really the case. But while we've been chatting, it just seems obvious that if I was a developer or I was one of these developer users that are programming. agents to kind of do my bidding for me that I the decision would almost come from me like I would

I would tell it to use USC on X402 because I find that to be most applicable to what I am currently building. Are you, is that how you're seeing it develop like that or or do agents really have agency to pick which coins they use? Yeah, again, I'll say that really depends. But we think about this way. If every single decision needs to be done by human, the agent will lose lots of, you know, capability, you know, to perform. So I'll say from some kind of a decision, like which, which, what kind of a UTC, what kind of currency stable coin I'm going to use on which chain?

Yeah, probably the owner will decide because, you know, based on what kind of a, you know, stable coin in their wallet, right? So that kind of tends they can decide. But when it comes to all the lots of, you know, very high frequent and micro decision, I think that's where the agent can really perform in terms of which service provider I need to go through based on my understanding their service level agreement, pricing, you know, latency, all the kind of parameters that can be decided by AI agents. But there are some kind of rules from work, actually. the developer or the owner of the agents actually they can set up all the all the you know rules so

that's actually how we say this kind of a you know decision flow uh will evolve uh in terms of how human and work with their their agents um so but when a i agent really become autonomous i think that's going to be much more interesting topic right they have much more autonomous autonomy to decide you know what kind of a currency you know service uh reals and you know they can use But that's going to be another big topic. Yeah, it seems like maybe like if I had to guess, we're like eight or nine months out from that kind of thing happening. Do you share that view on that kind of timeline? Or are we looking at even three, four years before we have like proper, like autonomous agents that people trust to be able to handle their, not even their personal crypto, but the crypto of their business that they're trying to grow by using agents too.

Like, what's your timeline? Yeah. I definitely cannot, you know, forecast, you know, like three or four years. I think three months, you see how, how things, you know, evolved. How fast the things evolve, right? I think three months or half a year, that's good enough. But we always look into, as a founder, actually, we always look into the things that really never, you know, change all the time, right?

So the first of all, you know, the, you know, it's inviatable. the AI is going to change the whole, you know, our life, the whole, you know, economy. The agent become, you know, more and more capable. The larger international tokens become, you know, cheaper and cheaper. So become a commodity. So all the, all the, you know, factors drive the identity commerce and identical payment become real. And as we see, actually, from our, like, use cases on ISA platform. So, yeah, that's something, you know, we,

We truly believe and we see the patent already. In terms of how, let's say, when the AI agent become autonomous, yeah, if I want to choose a timeline, I'll say, you know, maybe in the next like 12 months, we probably see, you know, lots of, you know, autonomous agent perform, become a real economic actress. They can make a decision, make a purchase, use the, you know, a wallet, either fiat or stable, you know, to do things for themselves, the flaws.

Yeah, really cool. I'm wondering, I mean, we've only got time for maybe one more question, but this, how do we accelerate this timeline? Because I'm wondering what BD looks like for ISO. Like, are you going out and trying to attract more data providers to, so you can sign up more API so users can get more utility out of a platform? Is that the avenue you're going in? And if that's the case, like what my,

How are you looking for in order to push this adoption forward? Okay. So I think, you know, just step back one, you know, one thing before we really talk about how ice are building. Actually, we look at the, you know, the landscape, the big picture. What really drive the whole agentic commerce, you know, agentic payment, you know, ecosystem is number one, the frontier lab. labs, the AI models labs company.

They actually make all the large general models smarter and smarter and cheaper and cheaper the tokens. And all the framework, like open cloud, even cloud call, they make the agent more capable. And then comes to this kind of a capability layer, resources layer like ISA. We want to facilitate all the transaction, make the agent to access the resources when they really

perform a task. execute tasks become more easy, more, you know, accessible. The payment, you see, is always like, you know, we want the payment actually being invisible, just like how we use our credit card, right? We top of my, my Singapore issue, you know, credit card, credit card,

a credit card in a 711 US, right? Well, I don't feel how actually they settled. We want to make the same for the AI agents. So yeah, from ourselves, like I saw, yeah, we wanna onboarding, more and more like all the service provider digital service provider, AI service provider on a platform. So we have our own timeline. Right now, we have almost like thousands like API endpoints. I think it's going to be like 100,000 or even millions of API endpoints. So we design a whole

distance to make the whole scheme easily for the AI agent to discover to retrieve. And at the same time, yeah, make the payment system invisible and, you know, payment itself. as the transaction itself become the payment event. So that's how actually we are building. That's how actually we see the futures. Cool. Fantastic. I think we might end up leaving it there.

Maybe we can end on what you see are the roadblocks to really getting there. Because, I mean, it is exploding so far. So it seems like, I mean, whatever roadblocks were there a week ago aren't really there anymore. And then obviously we now have a lot of weight. behind the X402 foundation with the Linux Foundation too, which I have to imagine will bring a lot of developers on board too. So it's like, are there any roadblocks here? Because it seems quite open right now. Like, yeah, I'm curious. Yeah, true. Yeah, first of all, definitely the infra layer.

So we're talking about when agents really, you know, become an economic actor, they can make their micro-decision and make the micro-purchase, right? If every single API code transaction brain on chain, you think about that might be like meanings or even 100 meanings transaction per second. None of the existing infra block we're not talking about the centralized that kind of payment real like Visa Mastrika. They're actually handling like 65,000 transaction per second. And the existing like a layer one, layer two, they're actually maximum even

paypal temple or like you know, uh, Solana they are talking a hundred K thousand, 100,000 K transaction per second. None of there actually the infrae, you know, viable for that kind of volume. So I would say that's from the infra, you know, a perspective as a bottleneck to facilitate this kind of high frequent micro transaction. And then another layer is definitely how the agents,

the framework, the frontier labs, can really make the things work for us. The security issue, right? That's another, you know, another big topic. then how capable the runtime their framework can develop over time to become, you know, to make the agents can really do the work for us and do the work for themselves. So I think that's the main two, you know, potential bottleneck, right? You know, yeah.

Yeah, it's like it's we might be in for a future where there is also off-chain solutions to these, to some of these things as well. but in the meantime there is still a lot of growth to be had I guess but this has been great thank you so much Jordan and we hope to speak to I hope to bring you back on the breakdown soon cool thank you so much thank you very much davy right have a good one