The Breakfast Club - Best of full interview: Abby Phillip Talks Jesse Jackson, CNN NewsNight, Cam'ron, Trump, Kamala, Cancel Culture + More

Episode Date: January 19, 2026

The Breakfast Club BEST OF  - Abby Phillip Talks Jesse Jackson, CNN NewsNight, Cam'ron, Trump, Kamala, Cancel Culture , Recorded 2025. Listen For More!YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@BreakfastClubPower1051FMSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an I-Heart podcast. Guaranteed Human. You're all finished or y'all's done? Yep, it's the world's most dangerous morning show, The Breakfast Club. Shalameen Nagu. Jess Alarious, DJ Envy is out today, but Lauren Lerosa is in, and we have a very special guest, man, the host of my favorite cable news network show.

Abby Phillips is here. Good morning, Abby. Good morning. I say Phillips, but it's Philip. It's Philip. That's okay, though. Oh, I thought it was at S-2. Everybody puts an S on it.

It's cool. It does not bother me. My friend says it's a sign of respect in our community like Salinas. I don't know. We do that with people who name. Why do we do that? I don't know. It sounds right.

It feels right. How are you? I'm good. I'm good. I'm hanging in there. New book out. A dream deferred. Jesse Jackson in the fight for black political power.

I'm from South Carolina. So I completely understand Jesse Jackson. and why he deserves all the praise, but why did you decide to write this book? I think that there are a lot of people who have no idea that he ran for president, honestly. And if they know that he ran for president, they probably don't have any idea

that he came second in the Democratic nomination in 1988. So he was the runner-up. And before Obama, there was Jesse Jackson. And I think this chapter really is more important now than ever. Back in the 80s, I think people didn't have any way to know that what Jesse Jackson did really mattered in the long term. But it clearly mattered because had he not run, Obama wouldn't have been the nominee. How do you not run? I don't know that you would have like a Bernie Sanders or an AOC or even a Zoron Mamdani.

I mean, these are people who are running on basically the same platform. that Jesse Jackson ran on. And he really transformed Democratic politics, not to mention registering millions of voters and putting in place a lot of the people that you know, people like Donna Brazil, Mignon Moore, and so many others who are leaders in the Democratic Party, they are all there because of Jesse Jackson.

I was going to say, in the back of your book, The Praises, you say, like the first one talks about how he doesn't, how Jesse Jackson doesn't get credit for how influential an American person. politics as he was. What credit do you want people to give him after they read your book? Yeah, I mean, I think that he transformed the structure of the Democratic Party that made it easier for outsiders to come in and disrupt the system. I think that's really what his original goal was when he was running for president. He was basically saying to the Democratic Party,

you have to take us seriously as black voters and not just black voters, but all kinds of other voters. He brought Arab Americans into the voting process. He insisted on women being on the ticket. That's why Democrats had a woman on the ticket in 1984. He insisted on Asian Americans being part of the political process. So what he was arguing for was a political system that actually takes everybody seriously. And I do think we're closer to that now than we were in the 80s. And he deserves a lot of credit for that. But I also think, you know, especially younger folks who, and look, I count myself among them. I was born three weeks after the 88 campaign was over. Oh, no. I was 10. Right. So, but I'm just saying, like, this is not about any kind of judgment about what you know or

don't know about this particular chapter of history. But it's, it's important to know that Jesse Jackson, like so many other of these leaders in our history, they had a lot of chapters. And this was a really significant chapter. I mean, he ran for president two times. He almost won the nomination. He, during one of these campaigns, he went to Syria and Cuba and brought prisoners of war back to the United States. I mean, he was doing a lot of things that if candidates were doing that today, we would be like, what? Is that real? But he doesn't get a lot of credit for it. I think a lot of it is because

it was the first time that so many Americans had ever seen a black man try to do what he did. And I think it's important to remember how much of a, you know, just a barrier breaker he was at that time. What was the single biggest myth or misconception you discovered in your reporting about either of those campaigns that you wanted to correct? That he was only running as a black candidate for black voters. I think that's the biggest misconception. He was obviously very interested, motivated by the desire to make sure that black people utilize their power, not just cast a ballot, but had leverage to get changes on the platform policy, things that mattered to their day-to-day lives. But he was also in Missouri with white farmers. That's right.

He was also in San Francisco with Asian American activists. He had, that's why he called it the Rainbow Coalition. I think people remember him as being the candidate for black people, but he actually brought, as he said he would, a rainbow of people into the political process. And he does not get very much credit for how much appeal he had among white voters, especially when he ran the second time around. There's this great picture I have in the book of him at a rally with a bunch of white farmers in like their overalls. And they all have paper bags on their heads with their eyes cut off because they're trying to hide their faces from the feds who were trying to basically foreclose on their farms.

And there's Jesse Jackson in the background with all of these white people rallying alongside them. And that's for me an iconic photo that kind of shows. that he had the same energy for our community as he did for all of those other people. And he was arguing to them, look, we have, the people who are trying to divide us along racial lines are trying to make you think that you don't have as much in common as a working class black person. And that's a lie. And then a lot of people diminish that part of his campaign because it's easier to sort of just put him in a box of, he was just a black candidate for black people.

I wonder where he fell short, because, you know, You talk about a lot in the book about the unlikely coalition he put together. It seems unlikely back then, but now it's like the norm, right? Exactly. The President Obama did or what the VP tried to do. I mean, all candidates try to do it. Where did he fall short back then, you think? There were a lot of things that happened.

I think some of them were his own mistakes, and I write about those in the book. I mean, he had a very big controversy. Or the Jewish slur? Yeah, he used a slur against Jews in private, and then it became public. And he had a hard time figuring out how to deal with it and was slow in addressing it. And that really dogged him for, especially for the 1984 campaign, but it had an impact on 88 too. I think the other part of it was that he was a true outsider candidate.

He had almost no establishment support. You know, he was like what Bernie Sanders was in 2016, where nobody wanted to touch him. among establishment Democrats. And so it was harder for him to build a real campaign that had the infrastructure that he needed to take advantage of the momentum when he did encounter momentum. But I would say the other thing is that he was completely discounted as a candidate. I mean, I went back and I read virtually everything

that was written about Jesse Jackson and those two campaigns. And the way they talked about him as if he was a gadfly candidate, is it, you know, they really did not take him seriously in the media. And back in that time, there was no way to bypass the mainstream media. And I do think a lot of times if he were running today, I mean, he was such a master of the press, of narrative, of really breaking through. But there was no internet. And if he had had that, I think it would have been a different story because so much of his message just never got to people. That's a lot of the critique he gets too, though.

A lot of people say that he was just an ambulance chaser who used to seek publicity. Like, you know, there's an infamous story about how he wiped Martin's blood on his shirt. I don't know if that is even true. That's in the book. Look, I mean, you should, that part of his story is, and I'm glad you brought it up, it's important because that is the double-edged sword of Jesse Jackson, was that he was a chaser of attention, of, cameras. He loved having a microphone in his face. And it was both a gift and a curse. He used it extremely well for decades and decades. And it made him one of the most famous people in this country for a time. But at the same time, it rubbed a lot of people the wrong way, including black

people. Especially black people. Yeah. Yeah. In some cases, especially black people. There were, there are a lot of stories in the book about why all of these people that he came up with in the civil rights movement, all these elected political leaders who were, you know, they ran in the same circle. Some of them were his friends, did not endorse his campaigns. And it was for a myriad of different reasons. But I do think that a lot of people were, rubbed the wrong way by his constant attention seeking, or it seemed to be attention seeking. And I think that even while you can recognize how important he was as a figure, it's like all of these people.

They're all flawed in some really profound ways, but especially in this particular way. I mean, any person who runs for president has a massive ego, has a massive desire for attention. And he fits into that category like a lot of these other guys. I don't mind it, though, because, you know, We say now one of the Democrats' biggest problems is not knowing how to message, not knowing how to communicate, not knowing how to connect with people.

Jesse did not have that problem. He did not. He was a master connector. I mean, he really was. And I do think he probably got more dogged for it than he deserved because that skill was so rare at the time. And it's rare now. I mean, he was a black man in the 80s filling up stadiums of 15, 20,000 people. there are many candidates right now to this day that absolutely cannot do that.

And he was able to do it because he had charisma. He could deliver a speech. He could connect with people who were otherwise not that interested in him as a candidate. And look, it's a skill. It's a particular gift. And I think that gift was completely, you know, it was just kind of ignored. the time. And I think we understand now how rare that is. People like Obama have it. People like Donald Trump have it. People like Bernie Sanders have it. But not that many people have it.

And he had it. And at that time, it was just kind of like, well, he's not a serious candidate. In the opening of your book, you have a quote from Theodore Roosevelt, right, about criticism and, you know, critics. The man in the arena. Yeah. How do you think social, well, young people growing up in the social media area these days, how can they learn from a quote as strong as this one? Yeah, I mean, the quote speaks to the fact that, the reason I chose it is because I think people often throw stones at people who are in the arena doing the work and getting bloodied up and muddied up.

by doing the work because it's really easy to be on the outside and criticize. But by being in the arena, you are actually doing the thing. And it's messy and it doesn't require you to be perfect. And I thought that was a good quote that kind of describes Jesse Jackson. I wrote this book and it paints the full picture of this man as in all his flaws and all his gifts. But the one thing you have to say about him is that he was in the arena. That's right. He was there at all these different junctures. He was involved in 1972 at the historic black political convention in Gary, Indiana, where black people gathered together and asked

themselves, how do we exercise our power? He was there in the 80s. He was there in the 90s. So he was there in all these moments. And I think it can be very easy to criticize. those people who seem to be everywhere a little too much. But being in the arena matters, actually getting up off your couch and going and doing something about what's happening in the world is something that very few people do. And when they do it, we should learn from them. Do you feel that way being, you know, one of the few black women on cable news with their own show, especially you because, you know, you have your own remember.

vocalition that you bring together every night. That's one way of putting it. With all of these different voices, do you feel like you get a lot of that? A lot of criticism. Look, I don't want to, I don't want people to misunderstand this. I am not at all saying that I am at the caliber of people like Jesse or anybody else who's really putting their body on the line to make the world a better place. However, what you do is important. But I play a role. Like, we all have a role. And this is mine. And, And in a way, yeah, people are very easy to be like, well, she shouldn't give this person a platform. She shouldn't do this.

She shouldn't do that. And I do think it's super easy to say that when you're just at home, like watching the clips on your phone. And this, I've been covering politics a long time. This is a time in our, like, political life where we have to really know what's going on. and we have to know what everybody is saying on all sides of the issue because I don't think that ignorance has served anybody well and particularly I get a lot of criticism from the left from people who are like why does she have MAGA people on the show

and it's like well you should know what they're saying yeah I agree because just so you know half the country voted for Trump and for Trumpism. And it's not helpful to be completely unaware of what is happening in those media ecosystems. So I personally think it's super important. And I want the debate. Like we need to have that debate. I want it to be right there out in the open. And I also think that it's important for people on both sides to practice being challenged. Because what we found on the show is that a lot of people are not used to being challenged. And when they have somebody literally staring them in the face saying, I disagree with you.

For some people, they're like really taken aback. Like they don't really know how to deal with that, how to counter it, how to be quick, how to respond. And I think that is a really important skill in our policy. that we can go back and forth on the issues. And we can really hash it out. And I, you know, I'll take the criticism from all sides, but I am very proud of what we do because I think that very few people are willing to do it.

Very few people are willing to take the chance of, of even being criticized. And I don't mind it. Like, that's part of the job. What about, because I know with your show, there's some moments that are like very, very. hard hitting, right? What about when that becomes like too much for you?

Because I've seen people step away from those debate-style shows because personally it becomes too much and it's triggering for them, especially for black women. How do you kind of, because you get back up and do it again the next day? Like what is your... That's my responsibility. I unfortunately can't step away, but I understand when people do.

And I actually think that is totally good and healthy. I think it's important to know your limit. And you know what? The good news about me not being able to step away is that it's my show. And I can draw the lines when I need to draw the lines. And if you watch, as I know you do, you know, like, you've seen the times when I've had to draw some lines at the table. And I don't do it that often because I want it to be not that common.

because when I do, it's like when your mom, you know, really tells you it's time to stop. That's kind of how I want it to be where it's not like that happens all the time, but you know that when I've reached my limit, it's the end. That's the limit. And I think that I can, because I'm the host, I can draw those lines around the kind of conduct that I will accept at the table. And I have control over who shows up and who doesn't. And so for me, I take that on the weight of having to show up every single day.

But I don't discount any person saying, I need to take a break. I need a moment because I think that's actually healthy for all of us. We should take care of ourselves and our own well-being, even while we try to stay engaged. And I fully support that. And I also will say, Lauren, that I think there are definitely people who cross the line. And that's part of the dynamic that is not within our control. It was an example. And that's okay.

I mean. I think I know one. Well, look, I mean, maybe the most famous one was the time. Jillian Michaels? Well, yeah, there was Jillian Michaels. But I, you know, I'll say, honestly, Jillian Michaels crossed the. a line in the sense that she said something that was kind of embarrassing. And we addressed it, but we never said to her, you're not welcome back.

Yeah, and I don't think she crossed the line either. I just think she just wasn't informed. Yeah, that was, that's her. She made a decision not to want to come back. But yeah, she, the thing about that was that she actually was talking about something that was important for people to be aware of was actually happening. because right after she said what she said about slavery and how it's overemphasized at museums

and then the Smithsonian, guess who said the same thing? The president. So if you had watched our show a couple of days before, you would have known what was coming. And it's not just that she said it, but the president said it. And then it actually became the policy that they're trying to implement at the White House.

So I thought it was actually super important that that was put out there because I think people were not aware of the extent to which slavery was the core thing that they were mad about in terms of how it was being represented in our museums. So she, again, I think you're right. Like, I don't think that we, I just would describe that as crossing the line, but we addressed it as an important conversation that needed to be factually addressed. But there was another incident with a person who was on the show who said to another guest that

a Muslim guest that their pager would go off. To Medi. It was a reference to the Israeli they'd like put bomb materials and pagers of the Houthi terrorists and they went off.

And that was an actual line that was crossed because you wishing death on a guest on the show is completely unacceptable. And he was told, and I said publicly on the show, he was not. invited back. And so there are lines that are crossed and I think people understand that I'll draw them when they need to be drawn. But I also think that we want to have real conversations.

Sometimes they get a little bit messy and that's okay. But I also think, you know, disrespecting people in a way that is inhumane or, you know, just there are some lines that we don't want to cross and we'll draw those lines publicly and I'll let everybody know what's going on but for the most part we're not we're trying to encourage speech not trying to squelch it the thing that bugs me out about your show is people will say you know they'll talk about Scott Jennings or the Kevin O'Leary's or you know the guy who said made the comments to Medi Hassan but you have Anna Casparian on there and Nina Turner and Teslin figaro and Baccari Sellers and Tiffany Cross and

Medi Hassan and Michael Eric Dyson and Charles all of these powerful people with powerful voices who push back on all of that nonsense. I don't understand why nobody ever highlights that. You have voices on TV that don't get on TV. Tesla and Frick Girl is only, they only put her on Fox News. And it's only on the Young Turks

Network. They don't put these people on television. And we look for people to bring on who bring a different unique perspective. That's the idea is that people like Anna and Teslin and others, when we bring them on the table, it's because we don't want just like the typical talking head that you hear on television.

Because I also think that what they do is they represent more people. They represent regular people and how they think. And one of the things that I love about the show, because I hear it from people when I go out to the country is that they watch and when they hear something, regardless of what part of the political perspective they're on, they'll say, yeah, that's what I was thinking. And I want people to think that, that their POV is, their point of view is represented at the table in some way. And so, yeah, we try to find unique, new, interesting, dynamic, energetic voices, people who are smart, people who can get in there in the conversation and are not passive, they're actively

listening, they're actively responding, they're thinking on their feet, they're not just regurgitating talking points. We don't get there every single day, but that's the goal that we try to get at. And so, yeah, we, on both sides of the aisle, by the way, because we also look for fresh voices on the right, because I just think that there's people, are tired of the same old, same old, the kind of talking past each other where, you know, one person is saying one thing and then the other person is saying another and they're not ever responding to each other and the ideas that are put on the table. And we try to move past that because I think it's not that interesting to be doing that in this day and age. And

what I'm also really proud of is that we get into the actual issues. We're, we're not just talking about the politics and how it's going to play with the right and how it's going to play with the left, I'm going to ask you, who are tariffs really helping and who are they really hurting? And like, we're going to talk about the actual issue, not just, quote, unquote, how it plays. Because I think that's kind of like a lazy way to approach real issues that have an impact on people's real lives. Nobody cares how it plays. They want to know how it's affecting their actual pocketbook. That's right.

Go ahead. You had dedicated this book to your daughter and your two parents. I wanted to ask your question. You said to my daughter Naomi, who showed me how, how did your daughter show you how? What did you mean? I never knew how much I could do until I had my daughter. And I think I know a lot of moms, parents can relate to that,

that I was probably limiting myself before. I had her because being a parent, you're like doing so much every single day. And there's nothing more motivating than your child. There is nothing that wakes me up faster in the morning than my daughter and knowing that I have to get up and Adam not only to put food on the table and a roof over her head, but to show her what it means to work really hard. And I, started working on this book like two months before I found out that I was pregnant with her.

It was kind of a surprise. And I was like, oh my God, what am I going to do? And then the morning sickness hit. And then I was launching a show and I was like, I don't know if I can do this. But I did it. And then when she was born and I was you know, trying to

raise a newborn. as a first time mom and then trying to work on this book, the thing that kept me going was that I cannot quit on this for her. And so, yeah, she showed me how to do the things that I set out to do. And everything that I start, I finish because of her. Because that's what we have to do for our kids is to, like, we are showing them the way. And she watches me. And, you know, she knows like, mommy's going to a speech.

Mommy's going to an event. You know, she really, she clocks it. She recognizes everything that I'm doing. And it's in that brain somewhere. And I know that when 10 years from now, she's four now, 10 years from now, 15 years from now, that's going to be her normal. And that's what I want. And child care is expensive.

So, you know, those speeches and writing is expensive. And it's ridiculous. And it's ridiculous out here to raise and educate a child. So, yes. That is so powerful. I do love how you shed light on that for me. That's really dope. Yeah.

And I wanted to ask you, too, right? When you did get the backlash from the Jillian Michaels thing, there was a lot of people making comments. And the social media is one thing. But when the comments come from people you actually know, like whether it's other, whether it's prominent writers or journalists. I'm not going to say no names. but how did that make you feel? I think it was disappointing because

I really hope that we understand how important it is for people to be free to say things that other people disagree with because when the tables turn we want that ability

and I also think it does not do us any favors to pretend like a lot of people don't agree with Jillian Michaels and that it's an opportunity for us to correct the record. Educate, yeah. To educate, to inform, to put facts on the table.

And I know, can I be real? I know black people who agree with Jillian Michaels. I've heard, and not just recently, this is her talking point about how slavery existed all in the world and we overemphasize it here in the United States. I have had black people say that to me. you know, 10 years ago, 15 years ago. So it's not like this is a new talking point. She didn't invent this out of nowhere.

So it's an opportunity for us to correct it. And I feel like people who, if you call yourself a journalist, you should never, I don't think we should be in the business of saying it would be better for us to just not hear the thing that we disagree with. It is an opportunity for us to do what we're supposed to do, which is to actually give people something real to counter it with. Gives people facts to arm themselves with. That is what our job is as journalists.

Yeah, I heard Andrew Gillum say he said this when we did, it was the night of the election. Maybe it was a couple weeks late, I remember, but he was talking about in reference to the election. He said, I never want to be blindsided about what the other side is thinking ever again. Absolutely. And then I think about that.

And I also think about, man, think about somebody, Think about an eight-year-old child or a 15-year-old child that might be just up watching CNN one night or see that clip go viral. If there's nobody there to correct that woman, Jillian, in that moment, they might believe that too. They might take that information and run with it. So you need people there to educate. I don't know why they're upset because you platform both. Yeah. I mean, and look, there's a whole, as you know, the media is so fragmented right now.

Everybody is consuming media in their own silos. And a lot of people on the left, liberals or whatever, they have no idea what's being said in those conservative ecosystems. And one of the things that we do is sort of try to merge those information lanes a little bit more so that we're actually hearing each other. And so that you're not blindsided because there's a whole other world that's happening over here that you don't even know about and you don't find out about until people vote. and by that point it's too late

so there should be more of this happening where we hear each other we're able to fight information with information but facts against facts and have people pick based on their own judgment what makes the most sense

and I trust people enough to do that I have enough respect for other human beings that they can make decisions on their own. But I do think that it requires that we really understand what we're even talking about. And so I don't, you know, I mean, look, is it disappointing? Yes. But I also think that many of the people who criticize what we do spend a lot of time

just talking to other people who agree with them. And that's a choice, but it's not a choice that I'm making. and I think actually a lot of people want to know. They actually do want to know. How do you know the difference? I'm sorry, my way. How do you feel when people say that CNN is a network that just does what you just said you don't want to do?

Like, your show is different because you bring on these different voices. But I've even seen people say that they feel like sometimes the other voices that are brought on are kind of brought on just because they have to be there, not because like anybody truly wants them there because CNN is known to be, or people think CNN always leans one way. How do you feel about that? It does. I mean, yeah, and it's your network, so you don't move on.

Well, look, I would say it's fair to say that CNN, we're not Fox News, but we're also not MSNBC. That's true. We're probably center left, and I think that has a lot to do with our audience. But we watch, when you actually watch CNN, we have Republicans on every hour of the day, every single one. I'm pretty sure, maybe with very few exceptions, but virtually every hour of the day. So they're not always on in the context that we put them on, but we as a network have a diversity of viewpoints on the air more so than our competitors. And so, I mean, liberal media is a criticism that I think we hear a lot.

but there's also way more liberal media and way more conservative media and so I don't know I don't put that much stock in it I think it's I think it's it's a little bit of reflection of the cable news audience but I also think that there are extremes on both sides and we're not in the extreme

I think we're quick alone I think another thing is that you all show conservatives who aren't necessarily MAGA like the SE Cups in the world that Adam Kinsinger there is a range still was on your show last week, I believe. Well, no, no, not Michael. Yeah, he's on MSNBC.

But there is a range to your point. And it's not just, you know, there are MAGA conservatives. There are people like SC and Alyssa Farah who are sort of somewhat anti-Trump Republicans. We have libertarian people. We have progressives. We have just establishment Democrats. There is a range of political views. and we try to have them represented in one way, shape, or form.

We have people who I cannot put them in a box. I don't know how to describe their political views. We bring those people on. But we also bring on people who are just not, you know, we have Roy Wood Jr. on all the time. We have Wendell Pierce comes on. Like we bring on people who. Oh, Linda Pierce.

Yes. Just people who are just insightful and insightful. and smart. Van Lathen. You know, they're just interesting and they bring depth to the conversation and they put things on the table that like the classic New York and D.C. types don't put on the table. And so I think that we are so much more multidimensional than left and right than Democrat and Republican and that

should be better reflected in who talks on television. You brought up a, this was like a, I think It was like a few weeks ago. You were talking about cancel culture. And I saw people reacting to this too. You said that liberals need to take more onus for where cancel culture went wrong. And this was after Kimmel was pulled from error. Yeah.

There's been a lot of like conversation about if cancel culture is even a real thing at this point. Yeah. But where do you think the liberals went wrong with cancel culture? I think that there were some specific moments, you know, not just around race, by the way. but even around, you know, around COVID, around other things where... Gender identity. Whatever, yeah, whatever you want to call it. I'm not endorsing any viewpoints that are right or wrong,

but I think it's asking the question, should people be forced out of their jobs or, you know, should the weight of sort of public opinion, force people out of their livelihoods because of things that they say, maybe because of mistakes that they make. I think it is just a fair conversation to have because, as we saw when Charlie Kirk was assassinated, you had people making comments on Facebook about how they didn't like what he said and then losing their jobs over it. The government pulled people's visas and revoked their citizenship over comments like that. And I just think globally, look, I think one of the criticisms of me making that point was that even long before this, there was cancel culture in the 80s and the 90s.

And I think that's 100% true. But shouldn't we evolve to a point where we don't do this kind of thing anymore? where we think really hard about what is the bar for us to say you should be, you know, run out of society for something that you said, for an opinion that you have. And I think that's a fair question to ask. Look, I don't think we should be operating based on what was done to us in the past.

Because I think if we do that, we're just, it's like a ball rolling down a hill. we're only going to dig ourselves deeper and deeper into a hole that we cannot get out of. And I think every single one of you would want to be able to say, I disagree with X, Y, and Z person and not lose your job over it. Absolutely. So that's the only point I was making that the principle here is not that we want to be able to do what they did to us. The principle is that people ought to be allowed to say things that other people disagree with

without risking losing their livelihood and their jobs over an opinion, or even a mistake that sometimes people make mistakes. They say things that they regret. And people should be allowed to make mistakes and atone for them without their lives being completely ruined forever. I think we would want that for us, and I think we would want that for people we disagree with. My last question is going back to your book.

Is there a politician that you see today, right? That you would say is a reflection of Jesse Jackson's legacy. You know, what I would say is that there are several politicians that are influenced by Jesse Jackson. But none of them have so far proven that they can actually do what he thought out to do. and be successful at it. So I would say that, you know, Bernie Sanders is a Jacksonian politician in the way that he talks about economic issues. AOC is like the next level of that.

She brings in the sort of social justice piece that I think is lower on the list of priorities for someone like Bernie Sanders. And I think so I think that there are, there's sort of like this new generation of populist politician who are talking about issues in the way that he did, basically arguing to voters that the system isn't set up for you, that it's not, you know, it's sort of like this idea that you're as working people, the system is set up for the rich and the powerful and the corporations. That's the type of message that Jesse Jackson had. And you hear that in a lot of other politicians.

But to me, the thing that's been missing from so many of them is being able to bring together the diverse coalition. Because if you're a Democrat and you're trying to run for a national office and you can't rally black people and Hispanic people and Asian Americans and like the whole coalition, you're going to fail. You're going to fail. And that's where Bernie Sanders went wrong is that he never really was able to get people of color on board. He had the economic piece, but he didn't have the other piece. And so I think the book kind of has a question mark at the end of it because it's a real question. Are there any politicians who can do both of those things at the same time? Because that's what's required in order to build a true coalition in the Democrat, in today's Democratic Party.

You can't have one without the other. You can't have the economic peace without the other. And so I think it's an open question who's going to be able to do that. Are you doing an audio version of a book? Yes, I did it. I did it and it'll be available for people like me who don't have time to carry around a book. Yeah, or people would just love to hear you speak because to be honest, your voice has a calmness to it. That would be great for me to learn all of this stuff. You know what I'm saying? Like a lot

of stuff that I don't know. Like, yeah, your voice is really calming. Thank you. Thank you. How did you get here, Abby? What school did you go to and everything? And did you always want to be, you know, doing what you're doing now? I went to Harvard or whatever. I went, but look, I grew up in Bowie Maryland. Okay, Maryland girl. I'm a PG girl. And I went to Bowie High School. I just, I was a real nerd. I worked really hard and I got into Harvard and that really changed my life. And, but the reason I ended up as a journalist is because, first of all, I always loved politics, but I didn't know, I didn't want to be in politics. I don't like, to be honest, I don't like politicians. but I love current events.

I love history. I love government. And when I was in college, I went on a civil rights and service tour to, we started in Memphis at the Lorraine Motel. We went to Mississippi. And we traveled around to all these different sites, and I blogged about it.

And it was like a bug. Like, I was so convinced by the power of the people who were journalists at that time and took the things that were happening in these, tiny towns and brought it to the entire country and really helped change the trajectory of civil rights in the country. And I really identified with that and I identified with the power of being there to tell history. And that changed everything for me. And at that point, I decided that I wanted to be in journalism and I decided to pursue it. And I got kind of lucky that my first job was at kind of a

startup, Politico, which now is not a startup anymore, but at the time it was. And I was their very first class of interns, and they just kind of let me do whatever and gave me an extraordinary amount of opportunity. They hired me after college. I was covering the Obama White House. I have a late birthday, so I was 21 when I was out there literally at the White House in the briefing room. And so they gave me an incredible opportunity to dive right into national politics. And I've been doing it ever since. And the medium has changed. I've gone from print to television. But, you know, I've covered two presidents. I've covered several presidential campaigns. I've done a lot in politics. And I think it's all culminated to this moment where I have an opportunity to help people,

not just tell people what is happening, but help them understand it. Because I think that people are over, they're oversaturated with just all the stuff that's happening. And they need a lot of help, just understanding what really matters, what should break through to them. And that's what I get to do in my job right now.

I've heard people say things like, you know, you're the future of CNN, but, you know, how do you handle being labeled that when legacy media itself is kind of like fighting to stay relevant. Yes, we are fighting for our lives out there. I mean, look, I think in the media, everybody is fighting for attention.

It doesn't matter what medium you're in. And so we're in that fight alongside everybody else, but television isn't really going anywhere. It's just that we have to evolve with people. We have to meet them where they are. And both the method that we talk to people, but also the content. And I'm really grateful that we, about a year ago, a little over a year ago,

was when we started to do my show this way. And I'm really kind of grateful that we did because it really speaks to what people are looking for, which I know you talk about a lot, Charlemagne, which is they're looking for more authenticity in media. And I think legacy linear media has been very slow to that because they don't want to sacrifice being authoritative for being relatable. But I think that there's a way to do both. And there's a way to kind of give people information

while also speaking to them in a way that they understand and leveling with them and identifying with them or putting people on TV who they identify with. And so the innovation is happening. And CNN is going to be streaming soon, people who don't even have cable are going to be able to literally just open up their app and, you know, pay a small monthly fee and you can watch it. And that's the future. And we're on Instagram and, you know, these are clips go crazy viral because that's how people are consuming

information. I mean, I wish they watch the whole show. But I also appreciate that people who don't even watch TV are seeing what happens on the show. Because cable TV still remains incredibly relevant. That to me tells me what the relevance is. People may not be turning on their TV every night at the same time, but the clips are getting millions of views because they still think it's important when they see something with a CNN logo on it, that there's some authoritativeness there.

So we still have that responsibility, but we have to evolve just like everybody else does. What media changing, and it's now, because media changing politicians and politics is changing as well too in the way that people speak to people Kamala Harris said to BBC that she possibly may run again how because I know you were also very honest about what she did and do right and what you thought she did do right when she ran if she was to run again like where does she meet in the middle with that because I think that's one of the things that fell off with her last campaign is that that was happening with media but she didn't meet us where some people were at and speak straight to certain people so what does she do this

time around and should she even run again you know I've been talking to a lot of people about that because, as you know, this book was very controversial. And it was even more controversial than you think. I loved it. In private, in private, I think there's a lot of controversy around it because I think that there are a lot of bridges that are burned here, whether she wanted to or not. And I think it will be very difficult for her to mend those fences that she'll need. in order to run if she just decide to run again. I think this book read kind of like somebody who was kind of done with it.

So I will be interested to see if she decides to do it. But one thing I'll say, I mean, I think that she still has to figure out how to tap into authenticity in how she presents herself to the public. because this world is not getting more kind to politicians who cannot level with voters and cannot show up any and everywhere. And, you know, my Fred Astead, Herndon, who just left The New York Times, but he's going to be at Vox. He just wrote a piece about Zoran Mamdani. And he had this line that I think a lot of people quoted that was about how politicians have to be able to talk in 30-second bites, in three-minute,

and in three-hour interviews. And that's the future. You have to be able to do it all. You have to be able to show up in any medium. And people get in a second who you are and what you're about. And I think that she still has work to do in that respect. And maybe this book is the first kind of foray into that. Because I read her last book and the tone was completely different.

This is a different kind of book. And it was an open. foray into her showing people more of herself. But she's going to have to catch up to the speed and the kind of realness of media and politics that will be the bar in 2028. Like in 2028, the bar is going to be, are you a politician that can show up any and everywhere

and authentically reach people? And I think she is still straddling the old world and the new world. And she's going to have to figure out which one she wants to be in. I agree with that. I think it's actually more important just to show up any and everywhere as your true authentic self. I don't think you should worry about whether or not this is going to be a 30 second sound bite or a three minute clip or three. I just go have the conversation because the media is going to do that for you. The media is going to chop it up for you.

Yes. But yes. But I also think, look, I mean, I'm a, I'm a driver. journalist. So I deal with her campaign and all of that. And I'm telling you, the answer is not yes to everything in terms of where she's willing to show up. And some of that is maybe staff and how they try to kind of protect their principle. But in the future, you have to be willing to talk to any and everyone. You have to be willing to take risks. You have to be willing to sit in front of people who might very well be hostile to you and win them over. And I think that,

And you might fuck up. And you might, yeah. So what? Exactly. And I'm just telling you it's, that was not how they ran that last campaign. No, he didn't. Period. It wasn't.

And they're going to have to, she's going to have to be willing to do that, which is going to, it's, it's going to require taking a lot of risk. But that is the future of politicians. The ones who will thrive in tomorrow's media environment, they, they, they, you've got to be willing to go everywhere. Mm-hmm. on a dime, prepared or not, briefed or not, that is how it works. And that's not how they ran in 2024. And if she's going to run again,

it's going to have to be a complete overhaul of that media strategy. Like, don't wait, don't, and this is for all of them, don't wait until this actual 2028, 27. Not at all. Do it now. Like, start going to these places now. And I think that a lot of them should be launching their own platform. they should have their own podcast.

A Gavin Newsom is doing. Absolutely. I mean, and look, I mean, you say what you want about Gavin Newsom. This is what I'm talking about. He had this podcast and he was bringing on all these conservatives on. And he got a lot of criticism for it. But I think what he was trying to show was a willingness to talk to anybody and to debate anybody. And again, I think there's a lot of that that's going to be required.

in the future. You've got to prove to people that you can win the argument. And if you can't do that, it doesn't matter how polished you are, how experienced or knowledgeable you are. I think that's the baseline bar that you're going to have to cross for a lot of voters in this future media ecosystem. No, I agree. You know, the interesting thing that the VP is doing, I think the book tour, I think this book is going to help her a lot because it's the first step to being completely honest. And then going on the book tour, but also going into these cities and talking to, you know, locals when you're in these cities. I think that's going to go a long way. Yeah, it's always important to do that.

But none of these candidates are going to really stand a chance in hell if none of them are really willing to challenge capital. Well. Do you know what I'm saying? Well, you know, I mean, there's some truth. Okay. The part of that that I would say is true is that when you look at what Trump is doing as president, In a way, he's challenging capitalism. He's putting tariffs on countries indiscriminately, just because he wants to, making the case that he's doing it for Americans.

He is taking government stakes in private companies. That's a Bernie Sanders idea, by the way. He is creating a government website where people can shop around for prescription drugs, another Bernie Sanders idea. So his willingness to just take some of these ideas the Democrats have been talking about and

just do them, no matter how controversial they are, has been one of the things that whether you like him or not, what people will say about Trump is that he does what he says. And I think that Democrats, one of the big problems that they have is that

voters don't think they're going to do what they say. They say all the right things, but they don't think they're going to do what they say. And so whether it's challenging, you can call it challenging capitalism or challenging whatever. Voters want to know that you're willing to buck the system for them. And I think Trump does that right now in a way that really like shakes people up and makes people really mad. But that is also why a lot of voters, whether they like him or not, they will describe him as effective. I wonder how, though, because he's like he's bucking the system, but it's only benefiting the rich right now.

It's not even benefiting his voters. I wonder why they still feel it. And even, you know, look, the tariff thing, he's making the case to Americans that this is a benefit to them. But the economics don't work. No. They don't make sense. Farmers would beg to differ right at this moment. They are struggling mightily under these tariffs.

Small businesses are struggling mightily. mightily under these tariffs. So there is obviously a really big difference between what Trump is doing and what he's saying and what is actually happening. But I do think that it's breaking through. And my only point about that was just there's a, Democrats have become way more establishment in the last 15 years. Because Trump is so anti-establishment. They've defined themselves in opposition to Trump. And so they've become. sort of an avatar of the system. And I don't think they realize the degree to which voters do not like the system at all. And the next Democratic nominee is going to have to be able to tap into that

one way or another to say to people, I get it. You don't actually like the way things are working. Stop defending the status quo and figure out what an alternative is that isn't just opposition to Trump. And do I see anybody actually doing that right now? No. Not really, but look, time will tell. Like, we've got a long way ahead. And if history tells us anything,

sometimes the person who ends up rising to the top is not the person that any of us are thinking about or talking about. It's somebody who's going to come seemingly out of nowhere, but not going to come from the center of the political universe right now. now. So we'll see. If, to your point of everything you just said, right, if Jesse Jackson, right, was able to actually become president, get in office, just do things for people that he cared about, how would Barack Obama's presidency have been different? Kamala Harris just on this run feeling like she has to dodge certain things and can't speak straight to black people. How would all of that be

different if he had been able to get in office and do what he was doing before he was voted president? Or not voted president? That's really interesting. It's such an interesting question. I mean, I think one of the reasons that Vice President Harris and Barack Obama have had to present a certain way to the American public is the perception that

a broad swath of the electorate, especially white voters, won't take a black candidate seriously unless they are very buttoned up, have the resume all lined up, the whole thing. And that's accurate. Right? That like we all understand that. You kind of have to clear a higher bar in order to even be let in the door. And I do wonder if the country had successfully elected a black president who was running on a progressive platform 30 years ago, whether they would have that same burden. And I don't know. Maybe they would not have. You know, one of the things about Jesse Jackson is that his

in a wide range of issues. As somebody who never was elected to political office, who came out of the segregated South, who came out of a civil rights tradition, he was right up there with all the other candidates. On the debate stage, talking about foreign policy, talking about economic policy, giving speeches. I mean, I would talk to people who would say

that they would give him, you know, like a 30-minute, briefing and he would go in there and he would weave a whole speech around an issue. He could take information in and very quickly turn it around into something that was compelling to an audience. And so he had a kind of intellect that was not very respected at the time. And I do think that, you know, if the country had elected a black president, I think candidates today who are running, who are like Kamala Harris or Barack Obama, would not have to do so much to show white Americans in particular

that they're qualified and that they have the basic, you know, qualifications to fit the job. I think that added burden is one of the reasons that it's hard then to turn around and say to those same candidates, well, you've got to be authentic because that same authenticity is what they get knocked for early on in their career.

So I'm not suggesting that it's easy. I think it is difficult. You have to be able to do both things. And actually, I would say Obama actually did both things pretty well. He was incredibly credentialed, but he was incredibly authentic in the communities where he needed to be authentic in. And I do think that it is possible to do it, but it is absolutely a higher bar. And it's a higher bar still to this day because we've only done. done it once, elected a black person to the highest office in the land.

And so there's still a lot that has to be dealt with in terms of people's preconceived notions of what people of color can do at high levels of political office. My last question. When Cameron took a sip of pink horsepower on your show, like you just took a sip of that. Is there something known in the industry about how did he treated his artists? So I'm going to get some cheeks after this horsepower drink. And he were going to bring this up. And then when Cam said he was going to get some cheeks after your interview,

did you understand what was happening in that moment? I knew that we needed to end the interview. Obviously, I knew that we needed to end the interview. We were up against the end of the show, and we had to get to a certain time. So, you know, I had to land that plane. and I did. And look, I mean, it was ridiculous,

but as we know, that was the point. The person who had to transcribe the show afterwards ask you what that meant. What did you mean you had to get some? Well, we all were just like, what just happened? Yeah. You know, I mean, whatever. It's, I'm not going to give this much more oxygen

because I know that's part of the point. I know he was here a little while ago talking about it. Let me ask you, because what was your favorite, viral news network moment. Was it the 60 Minutes joint? Was it the Bill O'Reilly or the CNN drinking pink horsepower? CNN. CNN by far.

He said he stole out after he did. I'm sure he did. And he said before it wasn't like it wasn't personally anything with you. He just felt like the network only hits him up for things that aren't about what he does outside of all of that. All I will say is that we were told by his team that he wanted to talk about this, not the other way around. So that's, we obviously, we don't book people about things they don't want to talk about.

So we would never bring someone on the show and force them to talk about something that they didn't agree to talk about. So I don't know. I mean, everybody, we have free will. We can do what we want. But like I said, I knew immediately. Actually, we knew pretty early on in the interview that we needed to get out as quickly as possible. Why? What was?

Why? You know, it was, I mean, it was from the get-go. You could read the room. You can read the room. Yeah, I'm not new to this. Like, I know from the beginning when somebody is not interested in being, in being interviewed. And so we knew we needed to get out, but it was just a timing thing, you know,

when you're at the end of the show. And he was actually supposed to be on the show earlier, but was late. And so we were just figuring out how quickly we could. hand off to Laura Coates at 11 o'clock. That put you in a good class, though. Cam's got some really good interviews with news anchors from Anderson Cooper, Bill O'Royle. Now Abby Phillips, he got some great moments with people. No dip said on the playlist no more, huh?

Absolutely not. We are not. That is not a class of thing I want to be in. He said Abby's was his favorite. I asked him which one was the Doug. Anderson Cooper's 60 Minutes snitching interview, the Bill O'Reilly when he was like, you mad, you mad. Oh, Abby. film he said yours because he sold out a pink horse power

I'm I'm happy for him I guess I'm happy for him but you know do you take stuff like that personally when it happens

no absolutely not not personally but just like why you why my show I'm a black woman I'm here on CNN

like why me no I you know what let me just I'll just say this because I don't I've never talked

I've actually never talked about this before, but when that happened, our booker who booked that interview was a young woman, and she was very upset about it. And I said to her afterwards, and I said to my entire team, I was like, this is not going to be a reason that we play it safe. We are not going to take this as a moment to say, oh, this happened to us. We can't have people like that on our air again. I don't believe in that. I think that we are out here trying to hear from people who are interesting and different.

And maybe sometimes it goes left. But I'm not going to, this is, we're not going to come down on you for booking this interview because we want to bring interesting people onto the show. And it was important to me to convey to them that we're not going to go into a little. ball and be like, oh my God, this went viral and this was embarrassing. No, this two shall pass. Like, he had his moment. It was fine. I don't really care. I, do I wish he didn't do that on the air? Yeah. It was great. But I'm not using it as an excuse to say that we're going to play it safe on television because that's not what we're doing here. So, you know. Oh, you know. A fantastic job. Fantastic book.

What's her name? Fantastic booking. I'm not going to tell you her name. Did she book your show every night? No. She was unfortunately, she moved to a different city, so she's no longer with us. She was over there. Listen, it wasn't just her.

I told her boss too. And I was like, we are not, we are not going to treat this like some kind of major mistake because it was not. It is television. And sometimes in television, you have guests and you don't know what they're going to say. And the whole point of TV is not to be predictable and boring. That's right. So let's not do that. I thoroughly enjoy your bookings.

I thoroughly enjoy your show. Make sure y'all watch Abby Phillip on CNN News Night every night at 10. And then there's Table for Five comes on at 10 o'clock at 10 o'clock a.m. on Saturday. And don't forget to buy the book. Yes. A Dream DeFurt is out right now. Jesse Jackson in the fight for black political power. Abby Phillip, keep doing a great service though.

Thank you, guys. Thanks for having me. Come on the show sometime, all of you. Really? Yeah. I know you have some political viewpoint. And I have some little stuff. You know what I'm saying?

I got some little stuff. Even table for five. I know it's late at night. So table for five, you can come on. It's a different time. That's more of a Charlottoman's. Earlier for your schedule, yes. Thank you.

He's going to argue for us. Yes. We'll be supporting. I enjoy watching. It's Abby Phillip. It's the breakfast club. This is an I-Heart podcast, guaranteed human.