The Breakfast Club - BLK LIT: Why Didn't We Watch, KINDRED??!

Episode Date: December 24, 2024

The Black Effect Presents... BLK LIT! This conversation delves into the profound impact of Octavia Butler's work, particularly her exploration of identity, legacy, and the human condition. It highlights the importance of imagination in shaping our realities and the necessity for confronting historical trauma through storytelling. Brandon Jacob Jenkins joins us to discuss the adaptation of Butler's 'Kindred' and the complexities of relationships within her narratives, the challenges in writing and adapting in Hollywood, and our need to expand past our fixed perceptions in society. Series Links: Interview with Brand Jacob Jenkins  Read: The Book of Martha  Kindred Watch: Kindred the Series on Hulu (AGAIN) Connect: Jacquees Thomas @_ThatsPeace Join the collective writing community BLKWritersRoom.com Learn More: OctaviaButler.com A Black Effect Original SeriesSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

People, my people, what's up? This is Quetzalove. Man, I cannot believe we're already wrapping up another season of Quetzalove Supreme. Man, we've got some amazing guests lined up to close out the season, but I don't want any of you guys to miss all the incredible conversations we've had so far. I mean, we talked to A. Marie, Johnny Marr, E, Jonathan Scheer, Billy Porter, and so many more. Look, if you haven't heard these episodes yet, hey, now's your chance. You gotta check them out. Listen to Questlove Supreme on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[♪ Music Plays And Ends. Welcome to the Criminalia Podcast. I'm Maria Tremorchi Welcome to the Criminalia Podcast. I'm Maria Tremorchi. Holly Frye And I'm Holly Frye. Together, we invite you into the dark and winding corridors of historical true crime. Maria Tremorchi Each season, we explore a new theme from poisoners to art thieves. Holly Frye We uncover the secrets of history's most interesting figures, from legal injustices to body snatching. And tune in at the end of each episode as we indulge in cocktails and mocktails inspired

by each story. Listen to Criminalia on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey y'all, Nimini here. I'm the host of a brand new history podcast for kids and families called Historical Records. Executive produced by Questlove, The Story Pirates, and John Glickman, Historical Records brings history to life through hip hop. -♪ Flash, slam, another one gone, fast bam, another one gone. The cracker, the bat, and another one gone.

A tip, but a cap, there's another one gone. Each episode is about a different inspiring figure from history, like this one about Claudette Colvin, a 15-year-old girl in Alabama who refused to give up her seat on the city bus nine whole months before Rosa Parks did the same thing. Check it. And if you get with me, did you know, did you know,

I wouldn't give up my seat? Check it. And if you get with me, did you know, did you know, I wouldn't give up my seat? Now I'm up before Rosa, it was Claudette Goldman. Get the kids in your life excited about history by tuning in to Historical Records, because in order to make history, you have to make some noise. Listen to Historical Records on the iHeart Radio app app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. My name is Jacquees Thomas and you're listening to Black Lit, a podcast about black literature and the stories behind the storytellers. There is so much we can take away from this exploration of Octavia Butler's work.

At every turn, her narratives compel us to reflect, question, and reimagine the world as it is. With every interview, a new depth of insight into her psyche is revealed. We've only cracked the surface, and there is so much more to discover. The complexities of her life, the choices that she made to dedicate her existence to the craft of writing.

During a time where she didn't have strength in numbers, she was one of one. As we transform our experiences, observations, and perspectives into the stories for tomorrow. Inevitable questions surface. Butler's inquiries into the human condition opens pathways into understanding the mind, envisioning the future, and unraveling how our past has shaped our bloodlines and family structures.

She wrote, All that you touch, you change. All that you change, changes you. The only lasting truth is change. God is change. God is change. The power of influence and the exploration of identity themes that resonate throughout her entire oeuvre. Her work prompts endless questions and ideas with each page an interview revealing new discoveries. Her writings beckon us to lose ourselves and

then rediscover paths we never conceived. Only to lose ourselves once more in the richness of our imagination. These layers are not merely for enjoyment, but provide a textured ground to examine, and seeds of thought, seeds in which I can only hope will continue to be planted for the next generation. Over the last few years, the word legacy has occupied my mind with a new significance. Legacy is the opportunity to leave behind something of value, something that not only inspires but also enriches lives long after we are gone. Butler's legacy indoors.

Her works are now a part of educational curricula, discussions on podcasts, and are being adapted for television and theater. Kindred, her popular narrative and the very first of her works to be adapted to television, tells the story of an American bloodline and the horrors that occurred in order for the lead character and her family to exist. Kindred asks readers to examine the truth of our history as a country and it's not a soft swallow,

but a harsh reality that Butler doesn't shy away from. The importance of knowing and the sensitivities around accepting what happened. To confront what is. Butler challenges us to confront these truths head on, not as passive observers, but as active participants seeking understanding. In the wake of a divisive election,

the harrowing truths of our past and present intertwine like persistent weeds at our roots deep beneath the soil. Butler anticipated with somber pragmatism, but no less, hope. Hope remains a consistent anchor to cling on to. A beacon amidst the turmoil. As we stand here, 30 years from Butler's introduction to parable of the sower,

one must wonder how she would interpret the current political climate, societal divisions, and the environmental degradation. This quote from Eddie S. Glaude Jr. stood out to me this week. When we imagine the world as it could be and use that imagination to critique the world as it is, all of us had that capacity. The capacity for a moral imagination that sees well beyond the opacity of our conditions. Because if we can envision an alternative world, an alternative future, surely we can create it.

Brandon Jacob Jenkins, the creator of the Kindred series, joins us in a conversation later, but here are a few of his thoughts on the power of our imaginations and a necessity to have the freedom to imagine. The Black imagination is profound, you know, and we have to have unfettered access to imagine whatever we want, how we want. And it's the obligation of the creative to constantly celebrate that and honor that and defend that. Because if someone's out there not letting your life

and your history and your context on this planet get into that space of viewership and imagining, something's off. Beware. Octavia Butler championed science fiction and Afrofuturism during her era but now the fire is lit amongst many writers, creatives, and citizens. So what are you thinking? What observations and questions are emerging in your own self-reflection? Because that's where it starts. What alternative world can you create despite the pervasive uncertainty?

What will be your legacy? How will you use your voice, your pen, your action to shape the world beyond what it is? Or what was? Octavia's predictions were based on patterns. History repeating itself, humans repeating themselves, and falling over the same lines in the sand, and then drawing it all over again, just to fall, all over again. What will be your legacy? We can be better human beings than that, but it's so tempting to be greedy and have power

and keep it from other people. America, it is time to draw something new through the lens of a moral imagination, with the depth of knowing that everything we touch changes, and the need to heal at the root is dire, so that we can grow past our stunted patterns. Choose your leaders with wisdom and forethought. To be led by a fool is to be led by the opportunists who control the fool.

To be led by a liar is to ask to be lied to. But it's impossible to ignore the irony of the time, the date, the topic, the year, and an exact journal entry from Lauren Olamina on Wednesday, November 6, 2024 in Parable of the Sower, in which she writes about the president-elect and her concern about what they have ahead of them. She writes, Dad decided not to vote for Donner after all.

He didn't vote for anyone. He said politicians turn his stomach. During this election, millions of people decided not to vote, not to show up at all. Coincidence? Perhaps. Having read Power of the Sower and all of the things that were essentially predicted or calculated just from her watching NPR and just understanding the possible outcomes and

in the state of the world that we're in today, how do you feel about what she prophesies and how these things have come to be as a writer, as a black man? How does that sit with you? Whew, I mean, I think the important thing, her great message inside of that was about adaptability and community and a

deep understanding that change is the constant. And you know, how do we imagine our way out of the world that we've imagined our way into? That's really, that's really the clarion call, I think. You know, we're talking just days after the election and people are still feeling all kinds of feelings, but I know those feelings are gonna be different feelings tomorrow and the day after that. And the thing to do is to stay present

and to locate one's dignity, locate one's worldview and always articulate what you feel and what you know. And you keep history alive through the stories you tell, you keep your sense of self and your sense of community alive through the stories you tell. So that's what I kind of take away from her whole project. She didn't have to write these books. We're all very grateful she did write these books. I think it's up to us to take as an example for

ourselves why she chose to write these books. That's what she decided to spend her life on this planet doing. And how do we be inspired by that kind of human action? That's where my mind takes me. That's where I'm today. That's where I'm today on Friday, November 8th, 2024. So y'all, this is Questlove and I'm here to tell you about a new podcast I've been working on with the Story Pirates and John Glickman called Historical Records. It's a family-friendly podcast.

Yeah, you heard that right. A podcast for all ages. One you can listen to and enjoy with your kids starting on September 27th. I'm going to toss it over to the host of Historical Records, Nimini, to tell you all about it. Make sure you check it out. Hey, y'all. Nimini here.

I'm the host of a brand new history podcast for kids and families called Historical Records. Historical Records brings history to life through hip hop. Flash slam, another one gone. Bash bam, another one gone. The crackerlaash Slam", another one gone, bash bam, another one gone, the cracker, the bat, and another one gone, the tip of the cap, there's another one gone." Each episode is about a different inspiring figure

from history, like this one about Claudette Colvin, a 15-year-old girl in Alabama who refused to give up her seat on the city bus nine whole months before Rosa Parks did the same thing. Check it. And if you came with me, did you know, did you know, I wouldn't give up my seat? Nine months before Rosa, he was Claudette Goldman.

Get the kids in your life excited about history by tuning in to Historical Records because in order to make history, you have to make some noise. Listen to historical records on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Good people, what's up? It's Quest-O, Questlove. And Team Supreme and I have been working hard

to bring you some incredible episodes of Questlove Supreme with gifts that you definitely don't want to miss. Now one of the things I love about this Quest Love Supreme podcast is we got something for everybody, every type of musical ever. We enjoy speaking to the people who are the face of some movements, some people you've seen on stage or TV or magazine covers, but we also love speaking to the folks who were making it happen behind the scenes and they paved the way for those that followed. You know, keystones to the folks who were making it happen behind the scenes and they paved the way for those that followed. You know, keystones to the culture. This season we've had some amazing one-on-one conversations like on PayPal chatting up with hit maker Sam Holland, Shooka Steve

chatting with the legend Nick Lowe, and I've had pleasures of doing one-on-one conversations with Willow, Sonata Matreya, Kathleen Hanna, and The RZA. These are conversations you won't hear anywhere else, so make sure you go back and you check those episodes out, alright? Listen to Questlove Supreme on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. You are now listening to Black Lit. Well, the thing about Kindred that was very important was it was a kind of watershed book for her.

It was sort of, you know, I think if you take the kind of complete body of work of many great artists, there's always like a book that feels like a turning point where nothing else could have happened unless this book had happened. And I think that Kindred was that for her. I think in some ways she was born as a writer through the writing of that book. And she would say, I've since become rather close with Merely Heifetz, who is her great champion

and her agent and currently her, you know, her executor and has really done an incredible amount of work to keep Octavia in the imaginary and keep her alive and keep her legacy alive. Mary Lee told me that she would say to Octavia, you know, you really should write a memoir. And Octavia said, I've already written a memoir, it's Kindred. a memoir and Octavia said, I've already written a memoir, it's Kindred. And that there was something about that book that was very personal and that was a book of a young person trying to make sense of what they cared about and trying to figure out the themes that would motivate them and carry them through the rest of their body of work. And when I began to sort of look at it through that lens, you know, I'm a teacher and I teach writing, I've been teaching

writing for over a decade. You do see in young writers, you see what they're actively wrestling with in those early works. I really let that. What I see her doing is actually trying to find the confidence to be a black female writer. I think it's no mistake that it's about, I always said the arc of that book is she's the black female writer married to a white male writer

who's very successful, but in the end, the book that's in your hands, it's her book, technically, right? That it's about a woman claiming an identity as an author and an artist and a person through this strange, traumatic experience that's part imagined, part reality, part historical, part contemporary. That was really fascinating. I also was really moved to learn more about,

it's hard for people to understand now, but like she was a real researcher at a time when research was not easy. And she was not affiliated with the university. She was not an academic, you know, and she really was so, such an autodidact and so self-motivated that she paid her, she paid for a Greyhound bus that took her all the way

across the country to do research on this book. At a time when, you know, we don't understand how lucky we are to live or be living in an era that is dedicated to the memorialization of the American chattel slavery and like the memory of it. But at that time, which was, you know, right around the country celebration of it's like bicentennial, you know, nobody was out here caring about this stuff in a significant way, writing about it, memorializing, theorizing, historicizing it.

You know, that was, we're looking at the very beginnings of the birth of African-American studies, as we understand it, in a lot of ways. You know? And so for her to, like, decide she's gonna write this book, pay her way on a Greyhound, be on that bus for however many days, to go to, like, basically where I grew up, you know, Maryland, Eastern Shore, DC, and look at these crumbling plantations that do not have government funding, you know, and try to piece together enough sense memory and reality to kind of go into herself and tell

this story is a profound undertaking with no internet, no nothing, you know, it's ridiculous. And Merrilee also told me that all through her career, she was obsessed with, she would like record things on her, like on like, on like cassette tapes. And she would make these, essentially she'd make podcasts for herself. And she would... Like audibles, yeah. Audibles, yes, by herself she would make them, you know? And she would just, she just had for herself. And she would... Like, audibles, yeah. Audibles, yes, buy herself, she would make them.

You know, and she would just... She just had a methodology of bringing that knowledge to her and synthesizing that knowledge. And her work is proof of how, you know, that work yields more than just the knowledge itself. In some ways, people argue she was a prophet in many of these books, but she was definitely breaking these interesting arguments through fiction

about genetics, epigenetics, like provenance of racial, you know, racial, like interracialisms and forms. You know, she was doing all this stuff in an imaginative way that now, of course, we have entire shelves of scholarship kind of talking through the reality of, you know, so that was really just inspiring that if you really just dig down into your calling and you take the work seriously and you just get what you need at whatever the cost, there's real yield there. One of the things that I tell people who are reading my work critically is that what they bring to it is at least as important

to them as what I put into it is at least as important to them as what I put into it. And that's true. Once we sold the show, sold the idea, at that time, Huntington Library had just received her papers and no one could really get access to them. And honestly, nobody wanted to access them because she wasn't really in the air. Right. I would say in like 20, when was this? It must have been like... 2014, 2015, around then, when we actually sold it.

And Marilee was like, listen, I can get you access to this library. So I flew myself out to LA and I like went to that library every day and they had barely organized these things. I mean, because she wrote in these scraps of paper. You know, that was the beginning of me trying to really get inside her mind. Because I felt that was my obligation as an adapter, was to like just know every inch of her intention, every inch of this book. And I read like her, her like multiple drafts,

and like half drafts and false drafts. And I was like, man, this woman really, we're not joking around with the body. She was really a deep, deep, deep, serious thinker and writer. And I couldn't just comment her with like, it was just gonna, everything, every thread you pulled just took you on a whole journey. And I just wanted to know every part of that map.

So that was part of my process for the many, many years I was gestating a series. So knowing that it was essentially her memoir, wanting to make sure that you're capturing her intention of the book, did that play a role in your character development within the series? Because I know there were some changes that were made, but how did you maintain that intention within the changes? Within the changes? Yeah, I think what I did, well, I want to say, I don't think it was, I don't think she's being literal about it being her memoir. I think that

what she was sort of saying is that she told her emotional story through that. You know, I think it was about trying to, first of all, yes, it did, because it was about what I felt in the book, what I wanted to do in the series was to do with the trick of the book, which is that in the end, you realize this whole thing is a memoir of an author. But it was about, you know, I think she very intentionally wanted to write about a driven black female creative in an industry that in which she was just going to be like automatically a weird anomaly. And I also felt like one of the things about Octavia that I loved is that she never, you know, my other queen mother is Toni Morrison,

which Toni Morrison has this whole origin story of like, I went to the library, I read all the children's books on the bottom shelf, and then the next shelf, it was Dostoevsky, and I read all that too, you know? And so her story as a writer was very much, and justifiably, wrapped up in an exposure to like great literature and the formation inside of herself

of what it meant to be a great author of literature. But Octavia's story is very different, where Octavia read whatever her mom, who was a domestic, could bring home from the house that she was cleaning. So she was reading comic books, she was reading manuals, she was reading whatever she could. So she didn't have, I think, a necessary division between high and low literature in her conception of herself.

And that she had to be someone, she was someone who understood the value of watching things that most people would write off as not like disposable or not valuable or not meaningful. And so I needed to make, I really wanted to make a character who was like, I'm out here to bring dignity to the thing that stained so many people, I know, and looked like me,

but you're gonna write it off as not meaningful enough. And I don't care. Because that's what Octavia did. She was the only one in her field for so long. She was the only Black woman, you know? And that's a lot. That is a know? And that's a lot. That is a lot. And that takes a lot of commitment to stay there,

you know, and that felt kind of important to me. And also just looking at how, in the drafts that I read, and kind of in some ways, being able to track the evolution of the finished project and seeing where her mind went and the roads she went down and why she decided to back up out of them versus go down some of them. I was like, oh, I actually think there's ways to honor this impulse she had in a television form in a way that she knew that she somehow instinctively knew she couldn't actually pull off in a novel that needed to be about 200 pages. So yeah, that did all kind of, all that was definitely in living in me

and with me through that whole process. And of course, you know, making TV has other challenges, but everything I did, I tried to do in the grain of what I had come to understand was her thinking and as a creative at that time in her life. One of the often cited kind of aha moments was she was in a class, I think it was a history class, where some students stood up and was like, if I go back in time, I would have killed all these Uncle Toms

and these house slaves, this, that, and the other. And she was going home to a parent who was a domestic, you know? And just that experience of like, wait a minute, you know, there's something that's so poisonous about our history that people don't even acknowledge that the people in this history didn't know the future. This is the only world they knew, and they were still human beings who had to navigate the reality they've been in.

Right. You know, as we all are today. You know? And just the profundity of that thought was to me like, right, of course, like, it's so easy for people to want to judge any story about slavery because all we've received is like a copy of a copy. But if you'd stop for five seconds and think about these people's lives,

they had no reason to believe that this was not gonna be the history of humanity forever and ever. So when you have that thought, how does your behavior and your sense of entitlement in your relationship to violence or violence you think you'll do... SHANNON COFFEY Yeah. ...shift or change? You know, that's really the story. That's the interesting story.

I remember you saying something in an interview once that, you know, this idea of binging gives us an opportunity to almost approach it as if it were a book. But can you talk to me about like, your approach to time? And because I feel like even in the first eight episodes, we got through a good amount of the book. And I'm so curious. I don't know if you can talk about it, if you're still shopping it, if there's potential

of it ever being another season. I don't know if you can talk about it, if you're still shopping it, if there's potential of it ever being another season. I don't know, y'all. It would require a lot of activation. Um... You know, well, one thing I knew is, for a long time, I think people were like, why has this not been made yet? And I think one of the issues was, people were trying to make it a movie. And the truth is that, like, part of the effectiveness

of that book that she manages So beautifully and I think you really see her like get better and better at this Like I think parable is a great example of this is you have you know part of the emotional experience of those books It's how much time you spend with these people You know, it's getting to know the people and feeling how important it is for them to be changing so vividly over time That's what part of the book is about you think about think about the arc of Mrs. Margot Whalen, you know, by the end of the book, which we didn't get to in the show, but she is a totally different person.

And it's also kind of implied that that woman is the reason why Dana's line gets to continue on some level, right? So, but you can only feel that. you can't feel that in two hours. That's not going to mean that to you if Glenn Close or whoever is really mean for like 10 minutes and then 20 minutes later, she's like, oh lady, she's blind. Like, it's just going to feel different. Yeah. So I was so early on, I was like, yes, it has to be TV. Because the thing about TV, you're constantly having to ask yourself,

why would an audience member bring this person back into my living room every week? Because what you're trying to build is a relationship to characters. You're trying to build familiarity. You know, you think about these long running shows and it's like, you literally feel like you know Arya Stark, but you would not have that same experience if Game of Thrones had been a two hour movie.

You just wouldn't have, because it's about the time you spend with people. And truthfully, yes, and part of also, part of what she, what was so revolutionary about what she was doing in Kindred was talking about how it's easy to pretend that the worst part about slavery is that people got whipped. But the truth is, people's lives were robbed from them. People were trapped and they were incarcerated.

The theft of your time is the crime. And how do you really show that to people unless you give them an experience of what it is to live with these people in this world and wake up every day in the same captivity? That's really the... That's where the heartbreak is. You know, it's not just the precarity. It's not just the ways that the system is built

to contain and demean you. It's the life you lose. contain and demean you. It's the life you lose, it's the social death. That's the phrase Olenna Pashan uses. That's the real crime. The sexual violence is such a sensitive thing that is a part of that generational trauma. It's a part of all of these things

that we essentially sometimes don't wanna talk about while we don't want to even watch, or people are constantly saying, we don't need another slave movie, we don't need another slave contextual idea. But in so many ways, I'm like, yes, we do. Because there's still so many conversations that we are refusing to have.

And I think that's part of it. And doing it in a series, it makes the most sense to me because of the sensitivity of it, you can't put that's part of it. And doing it in a series, it makes the most sense to me because of the sensitivity of it. You can't put that in someone's face so immediately. I mean, you can, but why would you want to if you want to create a dialogue? Right. Especially when it was the sexual violence that wasn't like one off. It was systemic. It was systematic. You know, the economy of slavery depended on the sexual violence.

The repeated sexual violation and assault of women, of black women, that's what it was. And you know, the thing about Kindred, quite as it's kept, is it's a family story. It's a family drama. When she goes back and she meets those Waylands, she's meeting her actual ancestors. That's the reveal. You know, Margaret Wayland is her great, great, great grandmother.

Tom Wayland is her great, great, great grandfather, you know, and her life is the product of all kinds of violence. Yeah. I mean, literal, I mean, that's that's Alice's arc, right? That's like, that's the real moral craziness of that book is what Dana realizes she has to do in order to keep herself alive. Ah, man.

I mean, it's a heavy book. It's crazy. It's a lot. It's a lot. It's a heavy book. I have to ask, I have to ask this question. Kevin. What was the reason for changing the dynamic of their relationship? I have a theory.

Your theory might be the right, I mean... It's an area. Your theory might be the right... I mean... It's an area. (*BOTH LAUGHING*) Um... What specifically about their dynamic are you thinking about? They're not married. They're not a couple.

They're not, you know, their relationship is not at the depth as it was in the book when she started going into paths. There were an incredible number of drafts. So, you know, I don't, you know, making TV is tricky. It's not, it is not like painting a painting, it's not writing a poem, it's not even right to play. You are in constant negotiation with a corporation represented by any number of pretty much well-meaning people.

And you're trying very hard to I was I just felt like I got to. I got to get Octavia to people. That's like what I'm you know, that was my fire inside of me. And there were many, many, many, many, many, many, many drafts of this pilot in which these two were married. There's a multiverse in which I made this show in which they're married and I'm very happy that I did that. I would say that two things. The marriage as represented in the book,

which people seem to, like, close one eye to, is not what we would consider functional. Or I would say, or I would say progressive, right? He's significantly older than her in the book. Yes. Right? In a way that we would all kind of like... I think if we had to watch that every week, we'd have questions about.

He's also described in the book as like not attractive... at all. Um, he's like short, he's like got white hair, he's got crazy eyes, he seems aggressive. And he has like extremely paternalistic impulses towards her that are... that can make people pause, right? She's supposed to type up his... Type up his stuff.

You know? There's a wild moment. They have a wild fight early in their relationship where, for some reason, I know a lot of people would not forgive him. And this character kind of inexplicably lets this man back in her life. So if you're talking about really trying to recreate that specific marriage for a contemporary audience,

there will be bigger questions. I don't think that everyone's instinct will be like, they're in love and it's a deep love. I think that she's actually written a very... I think in some ways, the story of the book is actually the two of them learning really what love is. Like, they kind of bond through the experience in a way that makes that marriage at the end feel genuine enough

that she keeps this man out of jail when she comes back with no arm, you know? And I think that there was a desire to... I think I desired for there to be the possibility of watching this character have a love story... in real time, rather than taking it for granted or presupposing that's already there. Okay. What would it mean to ask the question of how this woman might, inside of this horrible

experience, where she is literally a commodity and at risk of being violated at any moment, you know, what if inside of this we could actually give her an emotional story that felt productive or safe or evolving or deepening or something. That was also happening. But there's other things I can't say on the record. That's all I can say. That's fair, that's fair.

But it's, you know, for people who think I didn't want... You know, I did... There are actually versions of this script that were very, very close to the book, but TV is another... It's a different kind of animal than a novel. And I always thought... Well, you know who liberated me was... Meryl Lee. She was like... Octavia always felt kind of ambivalent about adaptations of her work

because she was like, it'll never be the book, it'll be its own thing. As long as people read my books, that's all I care about. So I thought, okay, right. My job here is not to replace that book or anybody's experience that book or even my experience that book. It's to give it a different iteration and hopefully, in a satisfying enough way that it sends you back to the book and

that book has accrued a different layer of meaningfulness or something. You know, that was what I always felt when I was making it. That makes sense. That's one of the reasons why I started this podcast and it's happened already. We're like, oh, I should go back and reread Parable of the Sower. Oh, I should read Kindred or oh, I need to learn more about Octavia Butler. And I think that, you know, you kind of want to just ignite the spark. Exactly. Because I try, I mean, you and I both know, we can trust those books enough to make their own case.

Like, you don't even need to make a podcast, you know? Like, you can lose your whole life and mind and everything, and spirit in those books, like a lot of people I know have. And they're just more than either of us could sum up, you know, and just talking about them. You really have to experience them. You really have to live in them, live with them. And I'm just so fortunate that somebody in my life gave me the wherewithal to kind of stay tenacious. I mean, maybe it's Octavius. I'm saying like all these people, like Tony Morrison, I mean, maybe it's Octavius. I'm saying like all these people, like Tony Morrison.

Nobody was checking for blue his eye. She was just doing these things on the weekend. She had a job. You know, nobody saw the future coming and understood just the profound revolution she was engendering through her through language, through the way she engaged language. So you just have to sort of have faith in the work you're doing and listen. I mean, I'm never afraid to listen to people who have something to say. That's the other thing.

Like I'm always willing to have a conversation because I do believe I put in the work to say what I'm saying. And maybe something didn't get across to you the way you wanted to hear it, or maybe you just didn't hear it, you know, but it's always gonna be difficult talking about the reality of history to people. Like, one of the crazy repeat kind of things people kept saying when Kendra was on the air

was like, do we need another thing about slavery? Another thing about slavery? And I was like, well, first of all... I said this over and over again, I was like, there's a trillion TV shows about wealthy white families doing evil stuff. One trillion of them. And they win award after award after award after award.

So when I come along and do one of maybe two or three shows in the history of television, that's even partly taken American Slavery as part of its storytelling, I'm being told it's too many. There's a quota. Right. When I want to talk about the reality of my history and my family's experience in America, there's a quota. Right. When I want to talk about the reality of my history and my family's experience in America, there's a quota.

You know? There's something about that where I was like, I was just glad to go on TV and say that to people and just be like, this is interesting. Right. If they weren't expecting that sermon, we could have a first date. That's right.

That's right. That's right. That's right. But that was real. That's why that stuff matters. Because it's like actually, no, there's another one. You don't have to watch it actually. Because Lord knows I don't watch every show about cops.

I don't watch every show about firefighters. I don't watch every show set in the hospital. I don't watch every show set on a farm or about cowboys. That's the amazing thing about living in the Golden Age TV. You ain't got to watch what you don't want to watch. But that doesn't mean there's nobody that doesn't want to watch it. It doesn't mean to watch it. It was just wow.

But that's the kind of policing that only happens with black content. Right. That's they don't truly nobody else experiences that. If you could, would you adapt another one of her books? Oh, my God. I mean, it would take me. Yes, I would. Yes. The answer is yes. I would.

I would. I'll be honest. When I was pitching Kindred, nobody was checking for her. And then once we got picked up, man, all her books got optioned. And I don't know where those things are. I don't know where Garrett's Parable of the Servers is. I'm waiting for it. HBO was going to do Fledgling.

What happened? People got to talk. They were gonna do Dawn. Avery DuBois there was gonna do Dawn. I saw that. Yeah. Yeah. Can we tell the story of what happened? Because there was gonna be this thing, you know. But I would, of course I would. Because I really do have a kind of it's like, I'm also working on this Prince project. And meeting all these Prince people

who are like, he was like a religious figure to them. You know, they're like they go into raptures, they pull me into closets, show me tattoos and like it's too much. But I feel that kind of way about Octavia. I feel like my job, I'm just like one of her soldiers. I'm like, let me just give you to read these books. Like, I can just give you to read these books, read these books. I know, I just know that something's gonna change because what she was doing was more than just fiction. It was like, she was trying to build a community of thought around some ideas. And so yes, the answer is yes, I would do what everybody wanted me to, honestly. But it was not easy. It was not an easy time to make television. It was not an easy television to make. And yeah, it was. I got some gray hairs.

Oh, man, I can only imagine. I'm sure there's a lot of off book conversations that. That's a premium subscribers, you the premium premium. I'll tell you, I'll tell you what it went down in Atlanta in the fall of 20 whatever. and John Glickman called Historical Records. It's a family-friendly podcast. Yeah, you heard that right. A podcast for all ages. One you can listen to and enjoy with your kids starting on September 27th. I'm going to toss it over to the host of Historical Records,

Nimini, to tell you all about it. Make sure you check it out. Hey, y'all. Nimini here. I'm the host of a brand new history podcast for kids and families called Historical Records. Historical Records brings history to life through hip hop. -♪ Flash slam, another one gone, bash bam, another one gone, the cracker to bat and another one gone,

the tip of the cap is another one gone. Each episode is about a different inspiring figure from history, like this one about Claudette Colvin, a 15-year-old girl in Alabama who refused to give up her seat on the city bus nine whole months before Rosa Parks did the same thing. Check it! Get the kids in your life excited about history by tuning in to Historic History. I wouldn't give up my seat. Nine months before Rosa, he was Claudette Goldman. Get the kids in your life excited about history by tuning into Historical Records.

Because in order to make history, you have to make some noise. Listen to Historical Records on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Good people, what's up? It's Quest-O, Questlove. And Team Supreme and I have been working hard to bring you some incredible episodes of Questlove Supreme with gifts you definitely don't want to miss. Now, one of the things I love about this Questlove Supreme podcast is we got something for everybody, every type of musical ever. We enjoy speaking to the people who are the face of some movements, some people you've seen on stage or tv or magazine covers, but we also love speaking to the folks who were making it happen behind the scenes and they paved the way for those that followed, you know, keystones to the culture. This season we've had some amazing one-on-one conversations

like on PayPal chatting up with hip maker Sam Holland, shook Steve Chad with the legend Nick Lowe, and I've had pleasure in doing one-on-one conversations with Willow, Sonata Matreah, Kathleen Hanna, and The RZA. These are conversations you won't hear anywhere else, so make sure you go back and you check those episodes out, all right? Listen to Questlove Supreme on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Sported back to a tumultuous era where the outcomes of many of our ancestors was uncertain and often bleak, yet hope remained a steadfast companion.

Contrastly and power of the sower, Octavia Butler draws from the news and societal errors to paint a future, our present day, as a dystopian landscape where faith leads as the main character. This prompts a reflective question I posed earlier. What will be your legacy? What stories are you crafting from your current observations?

And how are these experiences impacting your imagination? These practices of interpretation are not passive activities. They actively shape our ideas. These practices of interpretation are not passive activities. They actively shape our ideology for tomorrow and influence how we internalize what unfolds before us. Brandon suggested we conclude with the Book of Martha, one of Butler's shorter stories that challenges us to envision our role in the crafting of Martha, one of Butler's shorter stories that challenges us to envision our role in the crafting of our worlds, inviting a deep introspective look at how

we might use our powers of creation to influence our realities. I hope this summarized excerpt enables you to see yourself and your potential more clearly, pushing you to think about the legacy you wish to leave behind and the stories you choose to write. How will you use your insights and your voice to shape a future that reflects the best of what we can imagine. I think that's a consistent theme, and probably one where liberating and radical thrust

of her body of work is about the imagination and what it is that we possess this faculty of conceiving our reality as being different than it is and how that, the exercise of that is important because that's where our agency is as actors in the world begins you know and that's so much of the world you know and things don't go great what's usually happening is someone's trying to suppress that potential in people in subjects right is doing that one of the ways you do that is through robbing them

of their language, which gives us access to that, right? It gives us access to bringing our interior into the exterior. It's a little, maybe a little cuckoo, but that's just what I always find in all of her. That's the kind of, the continuous thread is a real emphasis on interiority and especially black interiority.

And I always find that these themes for me completely resolve themselves. is a real emphasis on interiority and especially black interiority. And I always find that these themes for me completely resolve themselves in this little short story first called The Book of Martha, which is. Never where I tell people to start with Octavia, where I tell them the end. And it's a conversation between a character named Martha and God. But over the course of the story, you know, you realize that. God and Martha have a relationship, you know, like there's a connection between them that has a lot to do with, I think, what we're talking about. In this scene from the Book of Martha by Octavia Butler, Martha experiences a profound and symbolic moment with God as they enjoy sandwiches together.

Martha brings out sparkling apple cider for her divine guests. When she returns, she is startled to see that God has transformed into a woman, resembling Martha so closely that they could be sisters. This transformation inspires a conversation about perception and identity. Martha expresses her confusion and frustration over why it took her so long to visualize God as a black woman, questioning the authenticity of her previous perceptions of God as a white or a black man. She says, it does bother me. If I am doing it, why did it take so long for me to see you as black woman?

Since that's no more true than seeing you as a white or a black man. God explains that Martha sees what she has been conditioned by her life experiences to see, implying that her perceptions are shaped by her own personal and cultural background. The exchange deepens as Martha considers her own ideological constraints, her mental cage, what she thought she had escaped. She has always envisioned God in the limited human constructs available to her. White, male, human. God's response is enlightening. If Martha were truly still confined by those limits, she would be witnessing God. God's response is enlightening.

If it were truly a cage, God said, you would still be in it, and I would still look the way I did when you first saw me," suggesting that Martha has indeed begun to transcend her previous constraints. This scene, although short, captures the theme of self-realization, the breaking of mental and cultural conditioning, and the expansive nature of divinity beyond human imposed identities. It challenges both Martha and the reader to reflect, to reflect on the boundaries of perception and the potential for growth well beyond them.

potential for growth well beyond them. Black Lit is a Black Effect original series in partnership with iHeartMedia. I, Jaquise Thomas, am the creator and executive producer alongside Dolly S. Bishop. Chanel Collins is the director of production. It is written by myself and Brea Baker. Our researcher and producer is Jabari Davis. And the mix and sound design is by the humble Duane Crawford.

Special thanks to Hoshanda Saunders, Sheila Liming, Edward Champion, Bruce Duncan, Dr. Reynaldo Anderson, Kristen Zwicker, Nisi Shaw, and Brandon Jacob Jenkins. Thank you. Also, if you're looking to become a writer or in search of a supportive writing community, join me for a free creative writing session on my website, blackwritersroom.com,

blkwritersroom.com, B-L-K writersroom.com, or hit me up directly for more details at underscore T-H-A-T-S-P-E-A-C-E. That's peace. People, my people, what's up? This is Quetzalove. Man, I cannot believe we're already wrapping up another season of Quetzalove Supreme Man, we've got some amazing guests lined up to close out the season But you know I don't want any of you guys to miss all the incredible conversations. We've had so far

I mean we talked to a Marie Johnny Marr E John check Billy Porter and so many more. Look, if you haven't heard these episodes yet, hey, now's your chance. You gotta check them out. Listen to Questlove Supreme on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome to the Criminalia Podcast. I'm Maria Tremorchi. to the Criminalia Podcast. I'm Maria

Tremorchi. Holly Frye And I'm Holly Frye. Together, we invite you into the dark and winding corridors of historical true crime. Maria Tremorchi Each season, we explore a new theme from poisoners to art thieves. Holly Frye We uncover the secrets of history's most interesting figures, from legal injustices to body snatching. Maria Tremorchi And tune in at the end of each episode as we indulge in cocktails and mocktails

inspired by each story. Listen to Criminalia on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, y'all, Nimini here. I'm the host of a brand new history podcast for kids and families called Historical Records. Executive produced by Questlove, the Story Pirates, and John Glickman,

Historical Records brings history to life through hip hop. -♪ Flash slam another one gone Fast bam another one gone The cracker to bat and another one gone A tip but a cap cause another one gone Each episode is about a different inspiring figure from history, like this one about Claudette Colvin, a 15 year old girl in Alabama who refused to give up her seat on the city bus nine whole months

before Rosa Parks did the same thing. Check it. And it began with me. Did you know, did you know? I wouldn't give up my seat. Nine months before Rosa, it was Claudette Colvin. Get the kids in your life excited about history by tuning in to Historical Records because in order to make history, you have to make some noise. Listen to Historical Records on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.