The Breakfast Club - INTERVIEW: David Oyelowo Talks 'Government Cheese,' British Vs. American Acting & Opportunities, Oprah + More

Episode Date: April 17, 2025

The Breakfast Club Sits Down With David Oyelowo To Discuss 'Government Cheese,' British Vs. American Acting & Opportunities, Oprah. Listen For More!YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@BreakfastClubPower1051FMSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Wake that ass up early in the morning. The Breakfast Club. Yep, it's the world's most dangerous morning show, The Breakfast Club. Charlamagne the God, Lauren LaRosa, Envy and Jess are out, but we got a special guest. David Oyelowo was here. Did I say it right?

You did, you did, you did. Okay, I had to ask you beforehand. I appreciate that you did. Yeah, I see it all the time, but I'm like, I don't wanna hack it when I try to say it. No, everyone does, but you nailed it. How are you, sir? I'm very good, very good.

It's great to be here. Absolutely. So you got government cheese happening right now on Apple TV. Yeah. So in watching this, but also some of the other things that I've seen you play in, can you just first talk about your career and the roles that you select? All of the roles that I know you for are very powerful, very like, you tell stories that are like,

so important to black people. Coming out the gate, you are, is that something you were like, hey, this has to be it for me, this is what I wanna do? Or did you just fall into these roles because, like, how did it happen? No, thank you for saying that. It's very intentional.

You know, I was incredibly influenced by film and television growing up, and I was aware quite early that the images I was taking in were in some ways informing me of what blackness means globally speaking. And then I had this incredible moment where having been born and grown up in the UK, we moved back to Nigeria for six years, from the age of six to 13, and I was suddenly in a country, in an environment where I was not a minority. Everything on offer in that society was mine for the taking. And I realized that these images that I was internalizing that often had black people on the periphery

or playing what I deemed to be caricatures or stereotypes were insidious, were detrimental to us as a people. And so having moved back to the UK, becoming an actor, I felt that if I'm not part of the solution, I'm part of the problem. So I've definitely gravitated towards roles and projects that mean that I am trying to change what I saw growing up. I'm trying to widen the aperture and contextualize

who and what we are as black people. That's interesting. I wonder, how did you know that, you know, they were characters and stereotypes if you've never, if you hadn't been to America to see for yourself yet? Because I was living in communities where black people were central to their own lives and I knew that what I was seeing, because it wasn't just person, they are on the periphery of the narrative, if so often they are criminalized or marginalized, that was not my experience walking through the earth. And so I felt that's intentional, that's political,

that's propaganda in a sense, and it's having a detrimental effect on me because there is a disconnect between my lived experience and what I'm internalizing on screen. So that's how I knew it was something to be combated. You know, it's so interesting, right? Because I have that conversation often. Because you know, when you watch film and television in the 90s, if everything had some type of socially redeeming value. Right. You know what I mean? And I always wonder, what the hell happened to that?

It felt like it was intentional for them to stop showing us that and start giving us like the reality television. Yeah, well I can tell you exactly what happened. So often why you had those films that were bringing context to who we are as black people is because it was largely being framed and made by black people. What has happened a lot is that our stories, we craft them, we develop them, but at some point you've got to take it to people who have green light power, who are not from our demographic, and so therefore you're having to push who we are through their perception of who we are. And it almost always gets eroded, watered down,

or marginalized, and that's what's happening. For some reason in the 90s, there were producers, there were creatives, there were directors who were just doing it all themselves, and it was getting celebrated, and it was less watered down. And that's why I think we had that golden era. Yeah, because how you go from the Cosby show being the number one show on television, different show being the number one show on television,

different world being the number two show on television, and then all of a sudden it's just like, okay, that don't work no more. How? Right, right. I think there's some intention behind it. You look at what's happening in the education system, there's a reason why they're trying to reduce

what we have access to by way of knowledge as to who we are are because knowledge is power. So you take that power away, you can continue to subjugate people. So, you know, in relation to what you said, I love what I get to do, I love being a storyteller, but I do often feel like it's also a political act to get our stories told.

Is it ever heavy for you? Cause like, I remember watching you and the story about Dr. Martin Luther King. And Selma. Yeah, Selma. And I know there's a lot. Because you also have done theater. You're very serious about what you do.

So I know that there's a lot of study and deep study and things of that nature. So you're probably doing that for every single role. And there's a lot of like, just trauma that you take on differently because you get so close to your characters. How does that stick with you? In that pressure from outside world, too lot of like just trauma that you take on differently because you get so close to your characters. How does that stick with you? Like in that pressure from outside world too of like these are characters and

people that you know have shaped our world. Yeah I mean I try to stay away from the trauma component. What I mostly gravitate towards are aspirational representations of us. So in playing Dr. King, the gift for me was to see a leader, to see someone who was an icon, but who was a human being as well. And I am interested in stories where we get to be triumphant, where we get to be someone you would aspire to be no matter what demographic of person you are.

More often than not, when you see black people in a historical context, we are brow-beaten, we're broken down, and often we're not allowed to ascend. You won't catch me in that narrative for me personally. We have got to, for me, be on an upward trajectory in whatever we do. So it's less traumatic, it's more celebratory of who we are without shying away

from the challenges we face. Yeah, they never wanna show you the slave revolting. Right, right. Exactly, exactly. And for me, that's why I resist slave narratives because it's very hard to find the triumphant in that. The closest I came to that was playing Bas Reeves in this show, Low Men Bas Reeves.

He starts enslaved, but the great thing about being a producer is that you can ensure or be a voice in where the narrative goes. I would not have taken that on if he didn't go from enslavement to empowerment. Staying in enslavement is not something that I want to project to our people because there are people who enjoy that narrative

as a means of keeping us down. You said something interesting. You said in being a producer, you get to kind of like, you know, help to figure out where the character development goes and stuff like that. What part of your career did that become an option for you? Because not all actors have the ability to be on a set and say, hey, I think that we should change this

or empower differently because of how my people will see this. When did that happen first in your career? It happened by accident. It was on Selma. I got the script just as an actor in 2007. Felt a real calling to play that role, but I auditioned for it and the first director said David Oyelowo is not Dr. King. That was literally the feedback. And it took another seven years before the film came to fruition. But what I could never had anticipated was

that I would go from being an actor who was rejected initially to three directors later because they just kept on not wanting to make that movie because black doesn't travel the audience is not going to gravitate towards it whatever the excuses are they still say that well they did back then oh yeah i mean yeah you think this is a film about dr king ala perry because they said that they told tyler perry black people wouldn't leave the theater to go to the movies. They don't travel beyond certain. I think he meant global. You meant like at the global box office, right?

Globally, but here as well. The narrative was black people don't want to see black struggle. White people don't want to see, you know, feel white guilt and things like that. But, you know, it wasn't until 2010, Lee Daniels actually came along and was the one who actually cast me in it. Still couldn't get the film made.

In the meantime, I did a small film with Ava DuVernay called Middle of Nowhere, small $200,000 movie, and I felt she is a genius. Lee had moved on from the project because they wouldn't give him enough money to make it. And I went in and fought very hard for Ava to be the one to direct it. She rewrote the script. It was brilliant rewrite of the script, still couldn't get it made.

I'd done The Butler with Oprah at that time. I invited Oprah on to be a producer on the film. 12 Years a Slave came out and had done well, which had broken down this notion of our story's not traveling. And so the aggregation of all of those things is what went on to Mean Selma Got Made. What I didn't realize I was doing by bringing on Ava,

bringing on Oprah, fighting daily to try and get the thing made was producing. And so I thought, oh, okay, well, I can do that again for the things that I believe in and I'm passionate about. And so, you know, that was 10, 11 years ago now and I haven't stopped since. Why didn't it? I was just gonna say that's so crazy because 12 Years a Slave came out in 2013. Right.

That that was even still a conversation then. Absolutely. It was, it was the conversation back then. I mean, I had done The Last King of Scotland before that. And people may not remember, but even though we think of Forrest Whitaker in that film, the lead of that film was actually James McAvoy. They would not have made that film unless there was the Scottish White doctor as the lead of the role. It was the sheer force of Forrest Whitaker's performance that meant he went on to win best actor. I was in the help. It was the character played by Emma Stone, who was the lead character of the help,

not Viola Davis, not Octavia Spencer. It was the sheer force of their performances that means that they are the ones we think about. So when I first read Selma in 2007, Lyndon Johnson was the lead character. Dr. King was a supporting character. This is how these films were getting made back then. They were always fronted by white characters and you were sort of on the periphery, but it's the sheer force of who we are as performers that meant that you go, oh, that's the,

same thing with Glory, you know, Matthew Broderick is the lead of that movie, but we think of Denzel and Morgan Freeman in that movie. So that's how these films always got made until, 2013, there was 12 Years a Slave, without 12 Years a Slave, I don't think Selma gets green lit in 2014. Is that racism or business?

It's racism. Really? No, I mean, it's not business when the butler, we couldn't get the film made because no one would put money in. We had to go to Cannes to raise the funds. We sold 17, maybe 18 foreign territories, got the $18 million to make the funds, we sold 17, maybe 18 foreign territories, got the $18 million to make the movie.

The only reason the film got completed, because that wasn't enough money to make it, is because a hurricane hit the set, so we used the insurance money to complete the movie. So we made it, I think the end of the day was around $25 million, we made that movie for. It made $172 million. So it's not business.

Because, you know, any time we end up making these shows or these films and they succeed, they then get deemed that they have overperformed. Which in my opinion- Even with the white lead? Yes. But because, well, in The Butler, Forrest Whitaker's the lead and centers around a black family.

So that's why there was resistance to making it. But there's no way you're struggling to raise 25 million dollars to make a movie if you knew it was going to make 172 million dollars. The assumption is that it won't make that money. So that's why I say it's not a business decision, it's a race decision. I just wonder what those assumptions are based off. Are they based off box office success? I mean, now in 2025, it would be much harder

to have those conversations because of the success of a lot of black-led movies. But back then, you know. Because we've eroded the lie. We have too many, we have raw data. And that's the thing that streaming has done as well. I saw a clear uptick in my career when streaming came along because the reason why it's racism is it's tied to the opinion of a very small sample size of people who are not our demographic,

who make these decisions purely based on opinion, not on raw data. Now Netflix, Amazon, Apple, you know, there is data. We see the, you know, Lawmen Bas Reeves. I tried to get that show made for 10 years. It got rejected by Hollywood three times. It went on to be the most successful, widely viewed show on Apple TV Plus globally in 2023. There's no way that would, that, that was the estimation of what it would be, you know, in relation to how many times it was rejected. So we have consistently eroded that but we still are being saddled with this, what I deem to be a pejorative, which is it overperformed. No, it didn't overperform, just performed.

The audience gravitated towards it because we're human beings telling great stories in a great way, and the global audience are rewarding us for it. I do get mad at us sometimes when we don't show up for certain projects. Because you have to. At the end of the day, I understand everything you're saying and you're right, but it is still a business

at the end of the day. And we make it easy for them to say no when we don't show up. Well, I guess it depends on when you deem us not showing up. I've definitely had projects where I was like, oh, come on, guys, show up. But I think we're 14% of the population here, but black and brown people.

Like a trillion dollars in spending power though. Exactly. A year. Yeah, but we over index. It's like 40% of viewership on streaming is us. So we show up for the art form. We are the culture. We are the drivers of the culture.

And so to constantly have the folks who are driving that culture on the margins of it doesn't really make sense. I wonder if it's the type of art too though, that is easy, cause they're quick to make a comedy, right? They'll make a, you know what I mean? But when it's actually something of some substance, it's a little harder to make.

Well, that's why, and to your point, that's why I try to push the envelope with what I do. I'm always trying to find something that is a fresh way into telling a story. So, you know, Government Cheese is a comedy, but it's a surrealist, parabolic, fantastical comedy that has this sort of spiritual journey element, something you'd probably expect more from Wes Anderson

than from us. So it's comedy, but I like to think it has more substance, you know, artistically, there's layers to it. And so it's a little bit chicken and egg as well, because if we get opportunities to do one thing and that one thing is doing well, well, you're going to keep feeding that machine. If it's harder for us to color outside the lines, and then there's so much pressure on whether that thing succeeds or not, that's really difficult because if I'm a white person and I'm taking a big swing,

the chances are I'm gonna have about four, five, six, maybe seven at bats with us, one, maybe two. And so that puts a lot of pressure and so the temptation is to keep on doing the safe thing. But that's the thing I've told myself, I can't afford to be safe. I wanted to ask real quick, why didn't the director want you to play MLK?

What was his reasoning? Well, he was entitled to his opinion. I mean, he was a white male director who I think was more focused on the LBJ character and he had another actor in mind, like I say, his choice. But to be honest, when I think about it now, that's not the version of the story I would have ever truly been proud of.

That's in line with those other movies I talked about. You see it with The Constant Gardener or Blood Diamond as well, these films that insist on a white protagonist when we are central to the story and that's what that version of Selma was going to be. So I'm actually really glad that that version isn't what isn't the one that got made. What success for you now because when I think about the Selma movie, I remember the Oscar situation where you guys were up for these awards like the movie itself, but then you

and Ava DuVernay and you spoke out and said that you feel like you guys are snubbed because you protested wearing the I Can't Breathe T-shirts. So it can't be award shows for you at this point, right? No, no, no, no, no. I mean, the opportunity that adversity has afforded is to know that ultimately I don't know that those accolades are necessarily designed with us in mind. Don't get me wrong.

Happy to get them if and when they come along. But the reward, which I couldn't have foreseen with Selma, was Oscar so white. You know, the fact that Selma started that movement and meant that our industry was held to account from without the industry. The culture literally said, we do not agree with how you treated that film or how you're treating us generally. And that pressure really did change the face of Hollywood for a time anyway. You know, it definitely moved the needle. Because that year all 20 actor nominees were white. Right.

But how did it, so for you when you come in after that year and you're you know I mean you don't hold back you're very vocal about how you feel what you're experiencing on the business side of it as a producer someone that is directing and doing all these things that you're doing. Are studios welcoming you with opening arms like in an ideal world or do you feel the resistance even more after a moment like that? It's complicated because you know in that situation it was that first year and then the next year it was the same thing. Right. So you know what was helpful about that is that you again like I said earlier data it's not so I'm not just playing the race card I'm not just

complaining you have two years in a row where every nominee is a white person and not a person of color, that suggests there is something wrong with our industry when you consider how much our communities support this industry, how prolific we are within this industry, the work that we're producing, which the audience is saying they value and are remunerating at the box office. And so that becomes something you can hold the industry accountable to. And that's something, like you say, I've been vocal about, I've been very energized about,

and that has been a big driver for my work. I love something you said, you said the opportunity that adversity has afforded. Yeah. Can you expand on that for us? Well, you know, when you're in the middle of it, it's no fun. You know, when your film is being attacked,

when it's being accused of inaccuracy, when people are saying, actually, the Selma March was Lyndon Johnson's idea, not Dr. King's idea, all of which is completely true. Sorry, all of which is completely false. But you can feel the reason you're being attacked is because you're actually doing something worthwhile. Doesn't feel great. Breaking new ground doesn't feel great. But the ultimate reward is there is

nowhere in the world I go now where, you know, black people in particular are not just hugely supportive of me because that adversity that we face publicly, people are facing in their lives privately and say, they go, I see you, I see what you're trying to do, I'm with you, I'm going to support you. And so that level of support is something no one can take from me. And since that adversity, I can feel it. And it's a continuing groundswell because my contracts, not just with black people as an audience, but with the audience generally, is I'm gonna just consistently try to contextualize

who we are as black people. If you're down for that, come on the ride with me. And that may have not been something I was so focused on if I'd had all the accolades that could have been afforded. I wanna talk about Government Cheese. So the name itself of the series, let's talk about that first. Because the name itself of the series let's talk about that first because you is referring to the government cheese program which is a kind of like an overarching conversation

that you guys have throughout the series without really having it all the way. Yeah. So talk about the you know just the choice to title it that and you know what you hope the hope is that people get just from looking at the title before they even see it. Yeah I mean mean, government cheese for us was symbolic of what we tend to do as black people. Necessity being the mother of invention. We will take nothing and make it into something. And government cheese, as people may know,

is government-subsidized food. There was powdered eggs, there was powdered milk as well. And with government cheese in particular, you talk to people even now, they have this, you know, they go into this place in their heads when they think about those grilled cheese sandwiches or the mac and cheese. And they they talk about it incredibly fondly because it was, you know, a not particularly nutritious food that people made into a delicacy. And what you have with the Chambers family is that they are this black family in the valley in the 60s making something out of nothing. This guy starts

the show incarcerated has this epiphany about making a self-sharpening drill. It's going to be the means by which his family comes out of the challenging situations they're in. So it's aspirational. You have the character that Simone're in, so it's aspirational. You have the character that Simone Missick plays, she's a receptionist, but she wants to be an interior designer. You have our son who's aspiring to be a pole vaulter. You have this other son of ours who, you know,

is completely obsessed with Native American culture. Everyone is looking beyond where they are from an aspirational point of view, and in many ways, government cheese is sort of symbolic of that. What's the equivalent of government cheese in the UK? As a British man did you understand what that was? Yes I mean we don't have exactly the same thing but I remember you know you got bottles of milk that everyone got you know that would get dropped at your house every every morning and that was something that was across the nation.

Super rich people were not getting that necessarily, but it was lower income families. So that's the closest that we got in terms of that situation. But the thing I know from living in the UK, living in Nigeria and Africa, living here, is that wherever you go, the resilience of black people in terms of making something out of nothing is just something that feels pretty universal.

You've had other roles that have highlighted black life in the 60s. What about government cheese felt different from those other projects? Just the amount of joy on display. Okay. And just the relatability, I think. You know, our experience is very specific,

especially in the 60s as it pertains to civil rights and black struggle. But with this family, they are dealing not only with economic challenges, but marital challenges, and they are raising kids, and just trying to make ends meet. And I think all of those things are what make it fresh and familiar at the same time. You know, you've seen black people in the 60s, but never quite like this,

never quite in this place and never this family. You know, they're kind of out there. But, you know, I have four kids myself. And it's weird. It's not until you go to a restaurant and you see people looking at you funny, you realize how weird and quirky your own family is, because you're just being super loud

and people are keying into your conversation. So I think we're probably all a bit more quirky and weird than we care to admit. Well, this series is definitely a lot more light and fun and even though it takes on some serious undertones. But I was reading this article that you did with Men's Health Magazine. And you were talking about going out into Wyoming

on a ranch with your kids. And when I saw the article I was like, this is like a random interview for him to have right now. And then I was reading and I was like, I get it. Because you put yourself in the light of a person who has had to learn again to just relax and just be fun and just be a person. Because you're studying, you're acting, you're working,

and there's clauses where you can't go out and do stuff like that, which makes a lot of sense. But those moments with your kids where they're seeing you as a human or as like, dad is fun, dad can do these things. How does that reignite you when you get back on these sets? You know, you take on these characters like the one in the government cheese.

I'm so glad you brought that up because, you know, everything I'm saying is hard work. And you know, when I make a show, probably in the past to an unhealthy degree, I feel like it's a political act. I feel like it's not just about me going to work and taking on a story, I'm bringing my people with me. And you could argue that there are elements of that

that are unhealthy. And so to smell the roses while you're on the journey, to continue to intentionally enjoy your family, And so to smell the roses while you're on the journey, to continue to intentionally enjoy your family, enjoy your marriage, enjoy your home, has been something that I've tried to afford myself more and more as I've got deeper into my career, especially as there are now more wins on the board. You know, there are really significant things I've done

that are absolutely in line with what I set out to do. And the temptation is to just be like, okay, what's next, what's next, what's next? And you know, I have four kids, three boys and a girl. I have a wife who I deeply love. And you know, that is just as important. And a life well lived is not really about what you did. It's how you made people feel. And the thing- and a life well lived is not really about what you did,

it's how you made people feel. And the thing- He says that. Well, there you go, and you're right. And I want the people closest to me to feel like I was present, to feel like I didn't just say I loved them, but my actions demonstrated that as well. And I think that's time.

That's just constantly demonstrating to the people you love that you value being in their presence. And so that is, I'm working on it. I'm not gonna tell you that I'm all the way there, but that's definitely an intention I'm trying to bring more into my life. Is that what you meant when you said in the article that you came back a different dad?

From which, oh, in that article. Yeah, I came back a different that why you guys really do your research you really read that article whoever was that pitch that that was so smart because and look at you up everything else I didn't even know she pitched it you don't just end up in men's health magazine oh I thought you may have pitched it to us. No, no, no, no, no, no. Okay, okay, gotcha, gotcha, gotcha, gotcha. If you had gave me that story, I would have ran it up too.

But no, when I saw that, I was like, it was so genius because I think your reputation as an actor is so like, it's very like stern and silent and serious. And then I see this article about you doing all this stuff in Wyoming with your kids. I'm like, wait, hold on, what? You be having fun? So it made me go read it.

But that's what I guess, yeah, when you said you came back a different dad, I guess you just realized, like, I can't just be so much into my work. I still gotta be Pops. But also, you know, I was a really rambunctious kid. I would throw myself all over the place. I was one of three boys, and then I had my own kids and I got super

Like wrapping them in cotton wool like oh careful careful. Don't do that Oh, no, you know and then we went on this trip where we're horse riding and ATVing and we're shooting arrows and bike riding And I just really just let myself go probably a bit too much because I went flying over the handlebars of the ATV at one point. But you know I do that when I'm playing a role because it's like throw yourself into the role do whatever the role requires but for my kids to see me having fun in that way was an eye-opener for them and I came back differently because I was like, you know what, I am almost playing a role for my kids in order for them to be safe. But they also need to see dad sort of letting loose and having fun because then they'll hopefully take the right kind

of risks, not just, you know, careless risks. And it was a shift in the dynamic. And it was something I actually didn't want to go on, particularly my wife won it in a raffle, this trip to this dude ranch, and then sent us all out. And I'm so grateful that we did it. And we've done so many more things like that since then, because it was hugely beneficial for our family.

Want a trip at a raffle? Yeah. We gotta get you more money for a movie. Yeah. What the hell? It was a very cost raffle. Okay, okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I know, I know.

That made it sound bad. Did you have any reservations about playing MLK because you are a British actor and you know there's always that thing of why are all the British actors playing the roles of American icons? No, because of the way it came in. When I read the script in 2007,

I had never been thinking of myself as Dr. King. But I'm a Christian, I was in a time of praying and fasting and I felt God tell me you are gonna play this role. And then the way it came about eventually, which is that I can safely say pretty much no one worked as hard to get that film made as I did. And I would probably say no one else was quite as influential in getting that film made, between bringing on Ava,

between bringing on Oprah, between all the work done behind the scenes to try and get the film made. So, for me, I just found it unacceptable that the only American who had a holiday named after him in the 20th century who happens to be a black man had not had a film made about him yet. I wasn't feeling like I have to be the one to make it, but this was already 50 years after his assassination.

Why do we not have the movie? And I'm a big believer in if not me then who and and so I was never really thinking I'm British it should be someone else and the reality is that when Lee Daniels was casting for it he met everyone like I met I saw the list of some of the people he met I was like oh my lord I cannot believe I'm going up against my heroes to even dare think I'm gonna be the one to play this, but I eventually got the role. And so for me, it's a question of,

okay, now I've been given the opportunity. It's less about whether or not I should play it. It's more about how well I do it. And that is gonna be at the end of the day, the thing that I want people to judge. And so I never really thought about it in that way because at the end of the day, I have no interest in playing myself on screen.

I'm always gonna be gravitating towards the most extreme challenge in terms of playing someone who's not necessarily me. How do you answer that question when people say why do British actors often portray Americans in movies and on TV, but American actors rarely play British characters? I would say that the question comes from a place of scarcity

as opposed to the artistry of what we do. Daniel Day Lewis is never having to feel that question when he plays Lincoln. You know, white British actors who play a myriad of American roles, Christian Bale, Kate Winslet, you know, they just not ask that question. We don't ask that question when Meryl Streep goes and plays Margaret Thatcher, really. We actually don't really ask that question

when Forrest Whitaker goes and plays Idi Amin, an African character, or Morgan Freeman goes and plays Nelson Mandela, or the great and late Chadwick Boseman plays an African character in Black Panther. I think it's to do with scarcity here as it pertains to the work we have. And so if there's scarcity,

there are less opportunities. Who gets the opportunity is more scrutinized. And I think it's a function of that. And so I'm less concerned with that debate. I'm more engaged with let's create more opportunity and let's actually realize there's more pie than we care to realize or admit. And if you don't know that, create that, you know, because Morgan Freeman tried to get Basri's made for 30 years. I just don't understand how Morgan Freeman

couldn't get that made. I came along 150 years after Basri's was walking the earth and I feel very blessed that I managed to get it made. My question becomes, would you rather it didn't get made or that we just wait another 150 years? I can't speak to why I've been the one afforded the opportunity, but I will tell you

that it's pretty tough to outwork me when it comes to getting these stories right. And I welcome, you know, a situation whereby Biola Davis gets to play an African warrior in Woman King. That's what we should be doing because we are all from that place. And so, you know, like I say, all those African Americans playing African characters

is beautiful. I don't see why it is so contested when the flow is the other way as well. Yeah, I forgot who we were talking to. It was an American actor, I can't remember. And they were just simply, they simply said, the British actors are better and they take the craft more serious.

And yeah, I challenged that. I challenged that because I think it's also to do with opportunity. Look, my, the tradition in the UK is you go to drama school for three years. It's an expensive education. My son is at Lambda, the same school I went to right now. It's expensive.

I managed to get a scholarship to go there. Here, there are great actors who have trained. There's Andre Holland, there's Coleman Domingo, there's Grantham Coleman. There are these extraordinary actors who have trained and are getting those opportunities. Chad, Chad, Chad Boseman was, was trained as well. Absolutely.

And, and so I wouldn't say that it's a question of better. There's just a tradition in the UK where it's almost an apprenticeship. You do those three years. Then I went, I was at the Royal Shakespeare Company for another three years. So that's six year training, You know, so when I then eventually turn up to Hollywood ten years after I've graduated, I'm coming in with a wealth of opportunity and training that I had in the UK. And that's a tougher thing to get here, economically speaking, the great schools that provide that kind of education. But I'm working

with African American actors who are just extraordinary. I mean, you know, it was one of the things I was very focused on when we did Bas Reeves. You have Lauren E. Banks who went to Howard and Yale. You have Jokina Kallikango who was at Juilliard. You have Grantham Coleman who trained. You have these extraordinary actors. It's just that they're not getting the opportunities to advance at the rate that their white counterparts will. And so we don't get, it's why we don't get to know who Denzel is or Morgan Freeman is or Don Cheadle is till they're in their 30s, their 40s,

because it's all tied to opportunity. I saw a quote when you were talking about just African stories that are being told right now. Yeah. Because you mentioned us being able to play roles for those type of movies And you said that you don't feel like there's enough stories out of Africa that don't involve a white savior Yeah, you like can you expand more on that and like the feeling around that and I know you have your production company your wife

And some of the things that you're doing to kind of counter that yeah I mean traditionally speaking like I said before for a narrative to come out of Africa and be deemed global, there tends to be a mindset that it needs to be fronted by a white person to make it palatable, to make it so that the West is going to, in some ways, embrace it. The weird thing about that is that the global majority

is black and brown people, not white people. And that's over a billion Africans who now, you know, the piracy issue is becoming solved and comes from a time where it was still 12 people in Hollywood dictating what should be made and how it's going to be seen and whether or not it's going to be successful. When you have Squid Game being one of the biggest shows on Netflix, and it's not even English speaking, that shows that globally speaking, we've been being told lies about what an audience is going to gravitate towards on the basis of who's fronting it or not. And some of that mindset still exists because a lot of the gatekeepers still retain that mindset because they are

still the gatekeepers in power being able to say what gets made or not. So my point is that we need more African stories. We just need more stories. And I think a huge untapped source of amazing global storytelling is Africa. Absolutely. And so, and for those stories to be authentic, they need to be made by people who are integrated in that culture, because I truly believe the universal is found in the specific. The more authentic those stories are,

I actually think the more potent they become. Do you ever, do you have your production companies, Yoruba, Saxon? Yeah, Yoruba Saxon. Did I say that right? Yoruba Saxon. So I know that you and your wife co-run that production company and I'm sure a lot of the stories that you guys tell are very close to the heart

as far as like black stories, just by your passion here. Do you get backlash at all because you're not married to a black woman doing that and how do you deal with that if so? Not to my face. I'm sure there are plenty of people who feel some kind of way about that but we called it Yoruba Saxon because you know I'm from the Yoruba tribe in Nigeria, she's Anglo-Saxon and so you know our company is a demonstration of the fact that we are more alike than we are different as human beings generally speaking. You know in making government cheese, yes it's a black family but my hope and my bet is that everyone is going gonna see their family in that family because of the relatable themes and components that we've woven into it. And so, you know, I'm incredibly proud of my family. I fell in love with my wife when, gosh, we met when we were teenagers, we got married

when she was 20, I was 22. And everything we have, we built together. So, you know, for me, sometimes the accusation, you know, in marrying a white woman is, you know, they say things like, oh, there's self-loathing in there, or what's the other one, or that she's a trophy or something like that. We were so poor when we started out, there couldn't be less trophy if it tried. But I am an incredibly proud black man,

African, Christian, husband, father. There are so many things that I am on top of my demographic and who I'm married to, and those are all reflected in the work that I and we do And it's been 25 years which are together 26 26 years married 30 years Next month that we've known each other. What have y'all learned just as like co-producers and working partners on projects like race or just life Oh god, I mean work-life balance. That's the real thing to try and find. We have a two-week rule. We're never apart for more than two weeks. We've managed that for 26 years. Yeah, because, you know,

to be in a relationship, you have to be in proximity to be able to relate. Ours is a very tough business on marriages. And so, you know, we made that choice because we didn't want to be another statistic in our business. We learned that the marriage is the center, the kids are a welcome addition. Do not let the kids be the glue between you. Always stay invested in that relationship. And those things have all stood us in good stead

as business partners. Respect, never taking each other for granted. You know, those are the things that have kept us strong. You and your wife should be thinking about producing a biopic on a great man named Dr. Umar Johnson. He's an activist here in America, a scholar. Oh, wow. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, you all should think about that.

No, no, no. Just look into it. Oh, really? Look into it, listen. Oh, really? Just look here. Listen, don't look at her. I'm? Just look here, you know. Okay. Don't listen to her.

I'm gonna keep looking at you. He's about to get me in trouble. Your wife and you don't wanna do it. Was I about to become a meme just then? Is that what was about to happen? Oh baby, a meme, there's a whole chant. You don't wanna part. Okay, okay.

Trust me, they'll love you for that. Listen, was that ever a role that you were pitched that you morally said to yourself, I can't do this? Well what tends to happen is the minute you play a civil rights leader you get every civil rights leader who's ever lived. So I definitely said no to those. The minute you play a groundbreaking character there's a whole genre called the first black man who. You know I get a lot of first black man who which I'm not interested in. What's the craziest thing you was like, I didn't know a black man did that.

I mean, I want to say that there have been one there have been like windscreen wipers, the guy who invented the paperclip, the guy who like like it's it's it's ridiculous. It gets as ridiculous as that. And people will come to you like full of passion The other one you want to really avoid is when someone goes man. I got this script it's by my dad and He he the first person who had a car wash in Alabama and all that kind of stuff and I just like I Don't know how

To tell you that that is not a movie I don't know how to tell you that that is not a movie. I'm just so sorry, but that's not gonna be my next, but I got your next project. And I'm like, and- No, your accent go in and out, it's crazy. It's because it happens a lot to me. So yeah, those are the ones to avoid as well. Yeah, absolutely.

Oh, you mentioned so casually multiple times Oprah. Oh right. Like just just very casually. I read another story about when you invited her to the Othello opening night and she had to sit on them hard benches and she never let you lay that down. She just never stopped talking about how child those benches but she came to Coriolanus which I just did in London and they had cushion seats. So we are beyond the bad benches now. But yeah, and they were very tough benches to watch Three Hours of Shakespeare.

So fair point, but I'm glad that we've broken the deadlock. She showed up a lot for you though, it sounds like, just in what I'm hearing you say. Like what's that relationship in like, cause you know, Oprah ain't coming out the house for everybody. She is not she's not um yeah you know we met during the butler together and I remember being stood at a party at Lee Daniel's house that he was renting in New Orleans when we were shooting that that film and I it was at

a time when I just felt I isolated. I felt very alone. I'd moved here with my family. If I'm totally honest, I felt like there were other actors who saw me as a threat in a way that confused me because I was like, I'm just, you know, I'd come out of theater in the UK. It's an environment where it's all about, you know, about the work and working together.

And there were people who were like, you know, that coming here to take our jobs thing was a real thing I was feeling. And I just remember still being stood in a corner at this party and Oprah came up to me and said, you okay? I said, you know what, you know, I'm really glad to have gotten this movie, but it's just, I don't know if you've ever felt this, just like your own community is resisting you, which is what I'm feeling. I don't know if you have?

Oprah done got that baby. Of course. Especially about black men, they be on her. She's the first, whatever you said earlier, the first ever, yes, yes. And so exactly your reaction there was her reaction. She was like, baby. And she talked about how Sidney Poitier was the one who took her under his wing and said no you're not crazy this is a real thing it's something that is

unfortunately part of ascending in our community and he mentored her and she literally said to me I am going to do for you what he did for me. And she has never abated on that. Selma doesn't happen without her. My directorial debut doesn't happen without her. So much of the advice, so much of the financial literacy I have came from her because I didn't come from means.

My parents were not particularly good business people even though they had a business. And so yeah, she has really, really made good on that promise and it's been absolutely life changing. I know them people definitely hate you now. Oh no, I know. Out here getting all the roles, you can call Oprah and she just pop outside.

You ain't getting invited nowhere. I know, I know, I know. I made a rod for my back. I should have shut up. Would you consider that a moment of divine intervention? Absolutely. So many moments in my life have been divine intervention. And when I look at how indisputably my life changed

for having met her, but you look at the journey towards even playing Dr. King in Selma. Like I said, when I first read that script in 07, the reason I ever even met Ava DuVernay is because I sat down next to a guy on a plane who was watching a TV show I had done in the UK on his iPad. He looks to me and says, is this you I'm watching on my iPad?

I said, yes. He pauses it, says, oh, okay, you're an actor. Give me some advice. Someone just asked me to put $50,000 into this film called Middle of Nowhere. It's been directed by this lady, Ava DuVernay. You know, what do you think? I was like, well, send me the script.

I'll give you my opinion. I read it, blew my head off, and on the script was the title, her name, and her number. And I called her name and her number. And I called her, asked her if I could be in her movie, and that's how I met Ava DuVernay. What year was this? That was in 2011.

And that's how Ava came to direct Selma. If I'd literally been sat in the row behind that guy, I don't know that I'm meeting Ava DuVernay. So to your point about divine intervention, that has been a big part of my life. So this Hampton character is kind of a little bit of type captain. There you go.

Just a little bit. There you go. I love how you wove that back in, because that is one of the things I just loved about Hampton Chambers. Paul Hunter approached me six years ago with a short film called Government Cheese, based on his

youth growing up in the valley in the 60s and 70s and I'm playing a version of his dad in this in this show and Paul has has his own relationship with God I have my very clear relationship with God and when I read that script I just related so deeply to a complicated relationship with God. Mine is I like to think very functional but it is a back-and-forth. There are moments where I'm confused. There are moments where I'm like what are you doing? And that's what my character is doing throughout these ten episodes. It's like he's trying to be a better man. He's trying to be guided by God,

but he is very, very challenged at ceding control to God. And the tension in the show is you take the wheel. No, I'll take the wheel. No, you take the wheel. No, I'll take the wheel. Which I think is something that no matter where you are on the religious spectrum, we can all relate to. Absolutely.

David, thank you for joining us, brother. Thank you. Gov'n and Cheese is on Apple TV right now. And it was a pleasure talking to you, man. Yeah, you too. Don't be as strange as David Oyelowo. Oyelowo, yes. Oyelowo.

David Oyelowo. Definitely not making that film he was recommending. No, I'm telling you, Dr. Umar Johnson, biopic. I mean, it depends on when you want to live in it. You want to go Drew Ski style skit, or you want to continue on your theater. Wouldn't you want to see it? You know what I mean? What on where you want to live in you want to go Drew ski style Like something okay, we got we got to see it. Okay. Okay. Okay. Go look up dr. Um'm dreading to see what I'm gonna find out. You love it, man. Okay.

All right, just Google Dr. Umar Johnson, Snow Bunny's Nevel. Oh, my God! And see what comes next. I told you! What just happened? This chance! Why would you do me like that?

Oh, my gosh! Snow Bunny's what? Oh, Lord. I gotta tell you. Okay. It's the breakfast. I'm so glad you're here. Lord. Wake that ass you. Okay. It's the Breakfast Club. I'm so glad you're here. Lord.

Wake that ass up. Early in the morning. The Breakfast Club.