The Breakfast Club - INTERVIEW: Devi Brown On Achieving 'Higher Consciousness', Embracing Grief, Developing Self Mastery + More

Episode Date: April 23, 2025

The Breakfast Club Sits Down With Devi Brown To Discuss Achieving 'Higher Consciousness', Embracing Grief, Developing Self Mastery. Listen For More!YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@BreakfastClubPower1051FMSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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The Breakfast Club. Morning, everybody. It's DJ Envy Jesselarius, Charlamagne the Guy. We are The Breakfast Club. We got a special guest in the building. My good sister, longtime friend. Debbie Brown is back here. Good morning.

Good morning, y'all. Oh my God. How you feeling on book publishing day? I feel free. Yeah, I feel so free. I've had a lot of anxiety about it for the last few weeks. Why? Well, it's like that creative birthing.

And there's a lot of vulnerable stories in it. And you're like, did I do that? Should I have done this? But yeah, now I just feel free. It's here, it's done. I'm proud of it. I feel great. Living in wisdom, a path to embodying your authentic self, embracing grief and developing self mastery.

Tell us about that title. Ooh, you know, I think, so just like being a healer, being someone that has been on their own spiritual journey for decades, and being a teacher, I found that those are the three things that really give you a feeling of a well-lived life. When we're looking for healing or when we're looking for self-actualization or self-awareness, all the things, whatever we're looking for when it comes time to grow, it's like ultimately we're looking for when it comes time to grow, it's like ultimately we're looking to be the embodiment of our authentic self, to get past

the performance of like who we say we are and actually get to the core. And then all of being alive is to have grief a part of that, you know, every day there's grief and whether it's losing someone which I'm sure all of us have or will, because that's what it is to be here, or it's the daily grief of bearing witness to everything that's happening, finding a way to embrace that grief is a part of what it is to be human is, I think, a really powerful shift in our growth.

And then walking a path of self-mastery, looking to always not necessarily be better or prove things, but to just deepen in what you already are. Like mastery isn't perfection. Mastery is like the slow process of excellence of self, you know, and only we kind of know what that process is inside. I want to go back for people that don't know.

Devi's been here a long time ago, but for people that don't know who Devi is, here a long time ago. But for people that don't know who Devi is, Devi Brown is, I wanna start from the beginning. If you don't know, Devi was a successful radio personality. One of the best. And media personalities. And at the top of her game decided she didn't wanna do it anymore.

It wasn't like she was pushed out. It wasn't like she had bad ratings. She just said, you know what? I don't wanna do it anymore. Top of her game. And then she started going on this healing journey. Debbie was out in the clubs. She might've got into a brawl or two,

but we're not gonna go there. A brawl? I have no idea. I don't remember that one. I have no idea what's happening. What brawl was Debbie Brown in? I don't know that one. No, this is a healing journey.

So I wanna- A rebirth. A rebirth. I wanna go to, for people that don't know if that was Debbie Brown in. I don't know if that was. This is a healing journey. So I wanna- A rebirth. A rebirth. I wanna go to, for people that don't know, what made you say, you know what, this industry is not for me? I wanna give this up. You were doing radio, you were doing in different markets,

you just had a baby and you said, it's not for me. At the top of your game, how did you go from a woman in radio to just like, no, I'm done with it? You know, I think, and it's not even, first of all, I just have to say, and y'all know this, like to me, radio is one of the most incredible sacred ways to broadcast, because like you're really in someone's head and body

when you talk, right? Like they connect to you with their whole being. I've always found it to be like a sacred responsibility that makes you good at like everything else. I think I realized that my purpose was evolving and I realized that a lot of the skills that I was amassing, like communication, connecting with people, building community,

I just kept getting very, very clear direction from God that I was meant to do it differently and use it differently. And I felt like I personally was going through so much. While I was still on the radio for many years, I was secretly, quietly getting certifications and meditation and breath work and spiritual psychology. It was such a huge part of my off the air life.

And I felt like, at least at that time, because I left the industry maybe almost 10 years ago, at that time, there was no blending of the two. And I was having situations where I was having, wanting to have these deeper layered conversations, and I was being told by the people I worked with, no one wants to hear that. Now we can't run that on the air.

Ask more questions about dating, ask questions about beef, ask, you know, and for whatever reasons, it's like what I had to give and what I felt God wanted me to give, it was not valued at the time. And so instead of kind of like sitting in that and, you know, just going with the zeitgeist, I was just like, okay, so it's time to leave. It's time to see what else I can be used for.

How else does God wanna use me? And it was interesting, because there was like a breakthrough moment for me where Kendrick had come on my show, and I had known Kendrick for a long, long, long, long, long time, the very beginning of his career. So we would always have really powerful, beautiful conversations.

That was in Houston, right? That was in Houston. He's brilliant. He's brilliant beyond belief. And we were talking about depression on this episode and we were talking about suicide ideation and this was 2014. And people in my sphere

didn't really see value in those questions or in the way that we were talking about things. So, you know, I was kind of asked like, hey, you can't share those parts of the interview on the radio. It's too long, it's too boring, like we need to get to the music. And so I ended up throwing it all on YouTube

and I got such a big response. Like so many people were saying, oh my God, like I've never heard anyone talk about that before and that's how I feel. And then an editor from Vogue Magazine reached out to me like a couple of days later and they're like, this is one of the best interviews we've seen. Like we want, we're doing a feature on him.

And that was like my, that was such like a breakthrough moment for me. I was like, oh, okay. Like if someone doesn't get it or, you know, if you have this vision that isn't making sense to everyone right away, you just have to find your people. You just have to keep being your authentic self and the people that are for you will find you.

And that really gave me like, I was like, OK, I need to do something different. But I wanted to spend my life talking about wellness and healing and health and pain and grief and all the ways to transcend. But you were so ahead of your time, and now it's okay. Now people are vulnerable. Would you see yourself coming back to doing radio?

I love radio. Because you were so ahead of your time. Now we have those conversations, and it's not even a thing. We talk about that, people are vulnerable. It seems normal almost. Well, she got the Deep Blue World podcast. Yeah, Black Effect Network, come through.

And you know the interesting thing about Dev, and I want people to know this, like I met Dev in I think 07, 07, 08. The person Dev is now, she's always been. This is just to me an evolution of who you've always been. You've always been the same one in the room. You know, the one in the room that people can go to for sound advice, the leader in the room saying,

hey, let's go do this, we should be doing this. I've always felt that in you. I've always seen that in you. Why you don't work here? If you have order. LA baby. Well she was in New York, yeah she was Sway's co-host for a while. Know what I'm saying, why she don't work here? At Fair Eastside, hi.

To the I Heart Dog. She was in Fair Eastside. We got a leader? Good. Y'all, when it comes to healing, the way y'all have been healing in this room, I am just so impressed and inspired. Thank you. There have been some beautiful transparent conversations.

To your point though, can I just say about you, I know people know this because the people in your life really hold you close and really protect you, but you're just an exceptional person and friend. I'm so grateful for who you've been in my life for almost two decades now. And it's like, when we first met, we had nothing. I mean, you were-

How did you meet? She was working at K-Day. Yeah. You were the APD at K-Day, right? Yeah, and you were on Wendy's show. Wendy was syndicated, yeah. And it was syndicated. And I used to run the boards on her syndicated show

and we would like talk through the mic and on MySpace. And then I think the first time you came to town, like I picked you up from the airport. Dev was like, you with me, we out. And literally showed me LA. My introduction to LA came through with Debbie Dev. Everybody from Kendrick Lamar, to Nipsey Hussle, to Glasses Malone, Strong I'm Steady gang,

Where to Eat, Where to Go, Devil's My Tall Guy. I had to check in with them. I was the person to check in with. I had to check in with them. The way you doing, keep checking in, run it. That's right. I love the chapter 15, because we're talking about that

in a way, heal and accept. Talk to us why that's important, that you have to heal and then accept. You know, I think- Because that's what we did in this accept. Yeah. Talk to us why that's important, that you have to heal and then accept. You know, I think- That's what we did in this room. Yeah. We healed and accepted Jess for who she is. I'm just playing.

Or the other way around. Don't start her back up. I'm not starting her back up. What? You know, this is the thing about healing, right? And I've worked in wellness and wellbeing for over a decade now, And I work with clients directly. I do workshops.

I run retreats. I've had a lot of access to studies and data all around healing, around trauma, around all of it. And I found, you know, from my own journey and with others, it's like there is this misconception that you work on yourself to eventually be rid of everything that's ever happened to you and that then your life will be perfect, that you'll go to therapy, that you'll do somatic exercises, that you'll meditate.

And then one day you're gonna just like everything in life is gonna feel so happy. That's not God's design, right? Like no feeling is more holy than the other. God wants us to know and experience and feel in real time everything that crosses our path. And that means grief, that means joy, that means, you know, jealousy sometimes, anger, that means fear. It's like all of it is part of the human experience.

And so when it comes to healing, a huge part of it is also accepting that the past can't change. For some of us, that can feel heartbreaking, right? Like a lot of things have happened to so many of us, so hundreds of millions in your life that didn't get your consent maybe, that you've never uttered aloud, you know? Sometimes we carry things and we're thinking about and ruminating in thought our whole life about the things that have hurt us. things and we're thinking about and ruminating in thought our whole life about the things that have hurt us and I think it's important for people to know it doesn't mean you're broken or deficient or not healed because you

still remember those things. It's really about changing the way you relate to them. Some things will absolutely never change but when you heal it really gets transmuted into wisdom where it doesn't feel like this hard, full, painful charge inside of your body every time that memory comes up. You're able to kind of look at it from an observer standpoint and be like, that happened. And that really hurt and God, that was hard. And I have respect for what I've been through.

I have self-respect for who I am and what I've moved myself through. When you talk about working on yourself, right? What does that mean for people, right? When people say I need to work on myself and then they come back 10 minutes, 10 hours later, I worked on myself. I'm healed!

I'm healed. Oh my God. So for somebody out there that says, you know, I need to work on myself, what does that mean? God, that's such a good question. And like that I'm healed thing is so funny to me because people will go to one therapy session and be like, yeah, I did it.

And it's like, actually it takes eight to 12 therapy sessions to have like a real, you know, cognitive breakthrough or, you know, you read one book and it's like, yeah, yeah, I do this because this happened to me and that's who I am. I think that's self-awareness. but when you're looking to work on yourself to transcend your experiences, there's a difference. Like, Instagram has given us so much language. A lot of people are using it to manipulate now. I hate the language when it's used the wrong way.

Hate it. I know, like, it bothers the issue out of me. Yeah. It drives me nuts because it's dangerous. Like to be clear, it's dangerous. People using certain mental health language that haven't done the work, that don't know the work, it's a manipulation tactic. It can be very harmful for people, can be very narcissistic.

So that none of those things are like devoid in the spiritual or the mental health space. All that same stuff still exists. But when it comes to like working on yourself, I think at the base level, it's noticing, how do you feel when it's just you with you? If there is anything inside of you that feels unmet, unexpressed, unheard, if there's anything inside of you where you feel anxiety, there is a charge in your your chest or there is a rejection or a cringe those are things to notice

because it's information that maybe something wants to rise to the surface for your review and I think when we're working on ourselves it's really about being willing to look at the truth of what is it doesn't have to be perceived as positive or negative it's just what is true right doesn't have to be perceived as positive or negative. It's just what is true right now. And then being honest with yourself about it. And if we try to avoid those things, yeah, you can move through life, you can probably still have a lot of success in life. But the quality of your life goes down, the quality of your interior world really goes down. And you're not really able to tap into like

the truth of why you're here to your purpose to you know and this doesn't matter to everybody but it matters to me the truth of your connection to God you know all of that kind of goes mute and it goes numb when you avoid yourself when you tap into yourself I think a lot of people think oh it's going to hurt too much I'm going to open that door and I won't be able to close it, but you're hurting anyway, right? Like at least there is an outcome to be had by choosing to direct some of your attention inward. Well, talk about some of the mental health

and mental health things that you've been talking about that I feel have been commercialized to a point where people are using these terms, but they don't really mean it, right? So talk about that a little bit. Uh-oh, about to make Dev go off now. Yeah, no, I wanna talk about, no, cause it really bothers me,

cause I hear people using these terms, and I'm sure they don't even know what these terms mean. Right, like you say somebody, you just gaslit me. And I feel like sometimes it actually stops a conversation. Because sometimes when people hear those words, they automatically say, oh, I ain't fucking with that. I'm not talking about that. Especially in a workplace where you can't have

a normal conversation if somebody says something because now when you hear those terms, that also comes after human resources, you know what I mean? Absolutely, yeah. I mean, there's just so much, and I think people should really do a lot of deeper layers of research, right? I think the internet is phenomenal in that,

the last five years, our consciousness has raised so much since the pandemic, because we have had access to understand, hey, a lot of people have experienced trauma, or a lot of people have experienced life frictions or, you know, deeply challenging relationships. But everyone is stopping at like one graphic, right? Like they're stopping at reading one thing or asking chat GPT one question, and then they leave it there, you know?

And it's like, so I think a lot of terms like, understanding, like a lot of people are overusing the term like narcissist or narcissism, right? Not getting your way with someone or someone kind of even being self-focused like every single person alive has some layer of narcissistic behavior. That's part of like the human expression too. It's some self-focus. But narcissistic abuse is something entirely different And those that have experienced understand like you get CPTSD from it, you get PTSD from it, you have changes in your body, your health decreases. Like it is a

psychological warfare that is insidious and can dramatically change the trajectory of your life. Now if that level of feeling isn't really happening to you, it may not be narcissistic abuse, you know, and so I think we just need to go deeper into the layers of the things that we're learning. And I will say people that misuse language or use it as tools of avoidance, typically those are the people that, you know, usually are on the other side and fit the other kind of definitions for those things. Behavior is behavior, right? And I think now something I'm excited about is so many of us are spending more time with ourselves,

getting more clear, meditating, or getting into nature, which really connects you to your intuition, to your gut response in a really deep way. It regulates your nervous system. When your nervous system is regulated, you're able to see things a lot more clearly. You're able to make a lot better choices in real time. And so usually interactions with people like that

that are throwing out misused language that are manipulating, usually you can handle those situations completely different or get away from them a lot quicker. One thing you told me one time that, you know, makes so much sense and I love the fact that you give so many actual examples of how to do it in the book. You told me that when it comes to the language,

you can have the language and know what it is you're dealing with, but a lot of people avoid the actual healing, the healing work. So if you read the book with, but a lot of people avoid the actual healing, the healing work. So if you read the book, there's a lot of different exercises that can walk you through that actual healing process. Why do you think people forget the healing part

once they go to therapy? Because it's hard. You know, and I think it, and that's the thing that I really speak to very clearly in my book. It's like, all of this is hard. There is no tip or trick to heal from challenging experiences, right?

Like I'm not gonna tell you, all right, do this five minutes every day. Yes, five minutes every day will build your capacity, but you need to stretch past the five minutes to devote actual real time to the changes you wanna see in your life. And so, you know, something I talk about in the book is like there's a huge difference

between having self-awareness and having higher consciousness or being embodied in your self-awareness. Self-awareness is having the terms. It's going to a couple therapy sessions perhaps, or reading a bunch of self-help books and saying like, this is what happened and this is why I act like this and this is why this is this but it doesn't mean you're changing any of it right like it

doesn't mean you're taking it to the next step to behave differently or to invite in different experiences with people and that comes through practice that comes through process and so in this book I talk about a lot, like how to get out of your way. A lot of people have a lot of sophisticated language around avoiding themselves. You can avoid yourself with anything. You can avoid yourself with therapy.

You're seeing the same therapist for 10 years and nothing in your life changes. What's going on in there? You know, or if you, you know, I see a lot of people avoid themselves with religion. You can be a part of a church, you can go there on Sundays and you can still not know God, you can still not make better choices, right? It is daily practice, it is showing up in your interpersonal relationships, it is having the hard conversations in real time as they come up, and just being present with all of it without expectation, you know,

without trying to control it or make it go your way. And so in the book, we have a lot of practices like I teach meditation in the book. We work with mudras in the book, which are hand positions that can really elevate your meditation practice because your hand positions open different energy channels in your body. There is breath work that can be done in the book, and every single one of those practices anchors in the changes that you want to experience because it shows you how to regulate when you do get triggered, when you do have charge. And so both are needed.

You have to have the cognitive and you have to have the somatic, you have to have the spiritual, you have to have the physical, all of it kind of beautifully goes together. So you don't think that people can heal themselves though? Like for instance, right? Like, that's just saved me for instance. Say I'm going through, you know, a lot. I've experienced a lot of trauma, right? And just an example, I'm gonna just use myself.

Like, and I'm constantly going through therapists after therapists after therapist. Okay, I've even changed churches and everything. And nobody else seems to help me, but I can find that on my own. Do you believe that people can heal themselves without church or without any higher being or without any type know, any type of drug, you know what I mean? Or also any therapy. Like, do you think people can change themselves, heal themselves?

So in two ways. So based on my belief, I think that God has to be a part of the equation. That's my belief. That is my higher being, the God of my understanding. I think we can each have that, right? Because God can look and be different for everyone. It doesn't have to be in the confines of any set religion. I'm certainly not within any set religion.

But I do think there has to be something that expands your understanding of what all of this is. And I think that that is hard to do without connecting to something that is bigger than you. That piece aside, I would say absolutely people can heal themselves. I don't think you necessarily even have to go anywhere unless there is another layer of need there, right?

If there is a mental health condition, a disorder, if there are some situations like really severe trauma that you cannot understand on your own, I absolutely think people should continue to find all the resources that can meet their need, jump in and out of them. If it doesn't work, leave it. You know, trust your gut on that.

But yeah, we are our own healers, 100% of the time. I think this book it's about Self-healing it's not saying go go to this person go to that person get this done. I've done a ton of stuff. You know, I've done Everything I've done all kinds of therapies. I have done Certifications I have done a lot of psychedelics. I have done a lot of meditation. I've spoken with a lot of people, shamans, healers, so much, so much, so much. But it still comes down, no matter what, to how willing I am to be fully myself. It still comes down, no matter what,

to how willing I am to sit with myself, especially in the dark periods and the dark moments and how much self-respect I can really gather for myself and what I've been through and experienced. I learned to meditate because of Dev. It was December, 2020. That was, it was 2020 because it was COVID. And that was like the first time we traveled

and we went to- That was the best trip. It was amazing. I went to Kabul for a week with Dev and like Dev had like a bunch of activities. What would you call them Dev? It was like a spiritual retreat. It was just a bunch of activities.

We were doing yoga and I learned how to meditate on that trip. I could not still quiet my brain, have my brain still ever, but for whatever reason in that moment, I was able to meditate and I've been doing it ever since. It was so amazing.

We did, yeah, we did reiki, we did energy healing, little mushrooms, we did meditation, yoga. Why is meditation so important? Oh my God. You know, and I think in some other maybe wisdom traditions, some people might relate to it if you call it reflection or if you call it moments for contemplation. But meditation is the master healer

because it gets you out of your identity. And our identity is almost 100% made from all of the culturally created beliefs that we have or beliefs from our family of origin or you know the things that were influenced by by society and so when you're able to get out of all those extra layers of like what your titles are you know what the role you play I'm a husband I'm a wife I'm a someone's child brother sister friend when you take yourself out of all of that you you actually get to glimpse like,

what am I designed to be? What was God's intention for me, of me, before I fit into anybody's box or any relationship? And so the thing about meditation, and I really want to share this, you know, I believe in trauma-informed practice, and it's a little bit different to hold that space within the healing community than if you're not. It's recognizing that a lot of people will have barriers to almost every healing modality that comes up because of some of the things that they may have experienced. So in meditation, you're going through so many layers and the first time you try, the first several times you try, it could be so hard and frustrating and anger inducing and irritating

to sit down and be still. And it could bring up everything and make you feel like you're failing at it. And then you wanna stop and then let me go do things I'm actually good at, you know? That is literally me. Yeah, yeah. That is, I feel like I'm missing out on doing something

or I can be doing this with this time or it's not working. So I grow to be frustrated when I try to meditate, man. So I just be smoking. Me too. And that, yeah, well, I mean, that too, smoking and meditate is like a great little collaboration and yoga and stretching. But I'm so glad you said that because I think that is almost everyone's response.

But especially if you have been through hard things. And what I want everyone to know is that phase passes. And that's part of what doing the work is, right? It's being patient with yourself and witnessing yourself, especially when you don't want to do it. And it's saying like, God, I'm sitting here and I hate this. This is stupid. I don't want to do it. And it's saying like, God, I'm sitting here and I hate this. This is stupid.

I don't want to do this. Breathe. Breathe, okay, okay. Wiggle, release, open your body. Like you start meeting those feelings with things that harmonize that experience for you and part of what you're doing when you do that is you stretch your capacity to be patient with yourself, you stretch your capacity to be present in your life, but

you also stretch your capacity for self-compassion. So all those little adjustments you make in meditation when you first start like connect to your breath, take a deep deep breath with your eyes closed Try to look at your nose That's something that can focus you Relaxes your body. Okay, I'm getting tense lower my shoulders Release my stomach release my breath. You're teaching yourself how to regulate your discomfort so when we say things like, you know

You know do it do it when you're uncomfortable or uncomfortable things stretch you. They only stretch you if you learn how to settle into them. And so that building a practice for your wellness is how you settle into it. Once you settle into it, there's another level to go to. So after you get past that, which you can and will, which I was in the same place, I hated it. I would stop for months at a time and reject it when I first started my practice. The beads and the mantra helped me. Yes, working with a mala, working with a mantra, a Sanskrit word or something that is valuable to you, you know. The next layer would be you might start crying a lot in meditation. That usually gets people to stop, right? You might notice that, oh my God, I'm still like,

close my eyes, now all these tears come up. The first thing you're thinking is what is wrong with me? Why is this happening? Well, everything that was suppressed, you know, everything that you haven't had the time to deal with probably for decades, now you're still enough that it has a chance to rise to the surface. It's not bad that it's rising to the surface. It's coming up for your review so you can release it or so you can accept it. So then you get into this kind of like double-dutch cadence with your meditation practice where you're like, okay, I want to pull back.

Let me come back in. Like you're in flow, You're going back and forward. And so the more you allow your. Yo, K-pop fans, it's your boy, BOMHAN and I'm bringing you something epic. Introducing the K-Factor. The podcast that takes you straight into the heart of K-pop. We're talking music reviews, exclusive interviews, and deep dives into the industry like never before.

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You never know where we might pop up next. So listen to the K Factor on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This isn't just a podcast. It's a movement. Are you ready? Let's go. some movement. Are you ready? Let's go. by none other than Decisions Decisions, Mandy B and Weezy, okay? We got the R&B Money podcast with Tank and Jay Valentine. We got the Woman of All podcast with Sarah J. Roberts, the Funky Friday podcast with Cam Newton, the Neck and Sporch podcast with Carrie Champion, Good Moms Bad Choices podcast,

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Dub Dynasty, the story of how the Golden State Warriors have dominated the NBA for over a decade. The Golden State Warriors once again are NBA champions. From the building of the core that included Klay Thompson and Draymond Green to one of the boldest coaching decisions in the history of the sport. I just felt like the biggest thing was to earn the trust of the players and let the players know that we were here to try to help them take the next step, not tear anything down. Today, the Warriors dynasty remains alive, in large part because of a scrawny six foot two hooper

who everyone seems to love. For what Steph has done for the game, he's certainly on that Mount Russmore for guys that have changed it. Come revisit this magical Warriors ride. This is Dubb Dynasty. The Dubb's dynasty is still very much alive. Listen to Dubb Dynasty on the iHeartRadio app,

Apple podcasts, or wherever, and recording artist. Yes, that means I've done the work. On my show, the Reggaeton Colagatta podcast, I'm not only talking to Flor Manon, who has the number one reggaeton track in the world right now, I'm also going to be on Perreo to speak with music inhibitors like Rainal, who is known for her media rockera tracks and collaborating with artists like Bad Bonnie. We're also giving you the culture breakdown

straight from the source. Listen to Reggaeton Colagatta on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Self-disc, like I don't want to think about this, but it did happen and I can move through this Breathe into it breathe into it grace for yourself compassion for yourself presence for yourself You get past that point and it'll take months. It'll take time It'll still come up sometimes and then you get to the next layer of meditation. And I found that that next level of meditation is when you're actually starting to crave it.

Like you're like, okay, let me go sit down. Oh, I finally get to be quiet. I finally get to be still. I feel so good when I breathe. Like, you know, you get to all these different levels, but eventually the level you're aiming for is like higher and higher consciousness. Higher consciousness means a greater ability to be what you

are designed to be on earth and to also extend love and goodwill and compassion and power and influence to others for the higher good of all concerned. Yeah. I was going to, with all that, does Debbie still get upset? Or do you control yourself to the point where you don't get upset anymore?

She's a Gemini. That's two Pachopra, okay? It's two sides. She's a Gemini. When you're about to lose it, do you meditate, do you pull the beads out? Or do you sometimes you just explode? Oh my God, yeah, I have bad days all the time.

Sometimes I book a session at a rage room. Like I have a rage room near my house. You go in, you get a crowbar or bat. Oh my God, you pay them like 20 bucks. They give you a carton of like plates and old electronics. You put on some music and then you throw things and you hit things. Remember that for next time, Jess.

You don't have to put your silk scarf on. You don't have to go live. Just go to the range room. If you don't make the breakfast, come to your range room. I was going to say, only if y'all go with me. But is that how you messed up your shoulder? Jesus, don't be getting mad. Damn.

Tore my rotator cuff. Yes, right at the start of your book tour. How was that? God is giving me excitement. I'm getting mad. Damn! Tore my rotator cuff. Yes, right at the start of your book tour. How was that? God has given me accelerated healing. I'm so grateful, but you know what? I'm grateful for the surgery and for modern medicine

and all the things, but no, I still absolutely get disappointed, get mad, get upset. I think the reaction time is a lot less. The personalization of it is a lot less I can get upset at something in more of an abstract observation way Without thinking that someone is injuring me even if that is what they're attempting to do I can recognize maybe the deeper layers doesn't mean I'm not gonna be upset or disappointed But I'm not holding it inside. It's definitely not something I'm thinking about for multiple days. You know I can kind of take it in, release it, or the way it feels. You know because sometimes you're gonna

be angry about stuff that doesn't change, that can't change. The world is unfair. You know it is, it just is and I think I'm an acceptance of that so I know things aren't always gonna go my way. I'm not now all of a sudden I've meditated so much that oh no more challenges in life for me, like no it's hard. But the way that it feels inside, the level of spiritual confidence you have in yourself to meet that challenge changes dramatically. And I think that you can compartmentalize it differently. You can hold that that unique experience is happening, but it doesn't now have to pull away and take away from all the other good that's in my life too.

And I think like my book is really about holding space equally for grief and joy. Life is grief and joy all at once. But yeah, you get mad, but you have other tools for working with that feeling. You're not taking it out on other people, right? You're not taking it out on yourself. You're not now being rude to whatever person

is in front of you because of it. You're not causing harm because of your feeling. Yeah. In the Grieve chapter, you talk about how you can't heal until you grieve. Can you expand on that? Oh my God. It's acceptance.

You can't heal what you don't let be revealed. You can't heal what you don't spend time with. And I think grief is a hard feeling. It's hard. All of us have had it. Even the good stuff can be. My son is going to be seven next month. Grief is a hard feeling. It's hard. All of us have had it. Even the good stuff can be. My son is going to be seven next month. I love you Quest when you see this in

the future land. You are my baby. Um, five, nine, by the way, seven years old. He's a big boy. Um, I grieve who he was last year. I'll never see that guy again. You know, like there is a real sadness to that. I mean, you're an incredible father, Envy, and I know, like, you see your kids at so many different ages now. There's grief to that. All those different chapters of who they are, who they're becoming, you know? So I think nothing can be healed until we grieve it,

because we have to be with the truth of our spiritual curriculum. We cannot avoid whatever was designed, meant to be a part of our lives. And I just wanna hold space for the fact that even saying those words, it is okay that there is a rejecting because there are certain things that happen to us

that there is no clear way that you could say that's God's design, right? Like there are certain things that happen and it feels so much better to like attribute it to how wrong things are or the evilness of the world. And so there's nuance in that and that is its own lifetime of work to come into, right? So there's no quick fix for some of those harder,

abusive stories of things that have happened. But you have to let yourself feel whatever is true in your body, whatever is present. From that point, you get to choose what the next path is and what the next step is. But yeah, no healing, no true authentic joy or happiness at that point, you get to choose what the next path is and what the next step is. But yeah, no healing, no true authentic joy or happiness can come if you avoid absolutely anything.

But you use some language in the book, Living in Wisdom, that's what we're talking about. You said grief is a rite of passage. Yeah. That was like, wow. I think, you know, and I speak as someone that darkness has been a big teacher for me in my life.

And that's not everyone's path, but it's mine and it's some other people's. Having some childhood trauma, having adult trauma, having, witnessing hard things, losing people. I started to look at my life and say, it feels so dark. I don't look like that. Sometimes not looking like what you've been through is kind of a curse because people think nothing's wrong.

No one checks on you. But it's like, when I started to realize that pain serves purpose, and I mean that literally, pain sometimes is the servant to purpose. When you can look at it, when you can be with it, when you can kind of extract yourself from the personalization of it, it can be really useful for you.

And for me, you know, my path has always been to be a healer, to be a teacher, to be present with people in pain, to sit at the bottom of the ocean with someone. So now I realize I needed every lesson I learned because it informs the work that I'm able to do. So I think once you're able to start seeing even your harder experiences as somehow being useful

for the bigger story that your life is telling, for the bigger thing that you're doing in the world. I think it changes everything. And with that being said, I love that you celebrated your book in your garden and you co-hosted it with Lauren London. Yes, my sister. Okay, so you guys are friends. Yeah.

How would, you know, because she's been through traumatic experience, you know, a big traumatic experience with losing the love of her life. A book like this would be like medicine to what she's gone through. How was that event? Like when you celebrated, how was that? Because I know you can see the healing directly in her because she's your friend. I just have to say one, Lauren is an exceptional woman. She is an exceptional woman with one of the sweetest, kindest hearts you could ever imagine.

She's just one of the kindest, most generous, heart-centered women I have ever had the pleasure of being in sisterhood with. I think y'all sisters, I'ma be honest with you. This is my personal opinion. We found out we were born in the same hospital. There's a lot that is similar, but she's actually the first person I let read the book.

And it's because she is also such a wise woman who has done so much of her own self work and self healing. She is very gifted and wise. And so I wanted her eyes on it first because I knew she could understand the layers, the complexity, the nuance of grief. And so as she was reading it, she would just call me every few days

and just be like, oh my God, this is amazing or this part meant this to me. So it was really special. And then when she offered to do something with me for the launch of the book. We had this gorgeous party in my garden. Gardening was such a healer for me. Like, and that also, I want to say,

I think is such a big antidote for grief and antidote for healing. The more you can add romance to your own life, man or woman, the more you can add beauty to your life with intention, the easier healing becomes. And it's also a scientific fact, like beauty, seeing beauty, seeing design, it can heal. It's why even in some hospitals, they have like healing

gardens, so there's colorful flowers or access to sunlight or being able to see growth. It changes the things inside of us. So yeah, so she healed that beautiful day. She came and hosted that beautiful day in my garden and we had so many people there and so many people in the healing community and it was just, yeah, there was no feeling like it.

It was so special and so free. I love that garden. I think that's the last time I saw, I think the last time I saw Jazzy Lai was in your garden. I have a picture of that night, yeah. We all, we actually all recorded a podcast. Please don't ever put that up. Yeah, I can't.

It's too incriminating. No, we was. Very off-brand. No, but that was a great night though. I just, I don't know. When you were just talking about the garden, I'm just like, yeah, the importance of that is just to have a safe space.

Yeah. A safe, sacred place. A safe, sacred place. You know, you are not good with the asses back to back. Don't do that. That's not safe. Okay. Yeah.

You also, you dedicated your book, and I'm probably gonna pronounce her name wrong, to Mai Haskell. Mae Haskell. Mae Haskell. Yeah. And I didn't know who that was until I went to go look it up. And she was a young woman who was dismembered and Encino.

What made you wanna dedicate the book to her? And you said, I pray you are free. I have to be really careful talking about this because the trial hasn't begun yet. Gotcha. She was a beautiful woman. I had the privilege and the pleasure of meeting when my son started kindergarten and our boys were friends.

And so my son is in first grade. So this just happened last year. And, you know, I'm sure the parents listening, like when your kids are in kinder, like you're still very connected to the other families, right? Because the kids can't communicate on their own. So you're creating the play dates, you guys are getting together for all the birthday parties like you are seeing each other

almost seven days a week and um she was the mother of this sweet beautiful little boy that was in class with my son and two other sons and her husband is currently incarcerated for allegedly murdering her and her parents. And her body was completely dismembered. Her head was taken, her limbs were taken and not recovered. Her parents were dismembered and then their bodies were dispersed in the trash cans in my neighborhood. I don't know, yeah this world, you know. I dedicated my book to her for so many reasons, but it's really just like if someone takes your whole family who remembers you, you know. I wanted to just honor the fact that she was here,

that she was alive and that I will be thinking about her every day of my life. Living in wisdom, ladies and gentlemen. Debbie Brown is out today. I got a lot more questions. I just don't know. I should have saved that one. Maybe we should go somewhere else.

Yes. I do, okay, somewhere else. Yes. OK, Wusa. Yeah. Does everybody need to have a purpose? I think everybody does have a purpose. I think what we get wrong is that purpose has to be quantified by something

or that it has to make money. You know, I think just like so many words are being appropriated right now within mental health, I think other words are being used for performance for Really self validation sometimes or ego right like your people well my purpose is this and my or you know What's my purpose and it's just another thing that you are kind of miss pouring yourself into purpose in my belief is simply, you know, it is your lived experience and the wisdom you've gleaned from it. It's the skills you've amassed in any

and everything you could have ever done. It's your innate gifts, you know, the things that you have that God gave you and it's then using it to serve, putting it back into service for others. And so, you know, it's like, I could say my purpose is talking, right? Cause I was a broadcaster for years. I lead meditation, I communicate all the things. But really like, I look at my purpose as like, being able to be in darkness with people, you know?

I think my life's greatest purpose is the fact that like, I'm not afraid of the dark and I can be in darker moments and not recoil with other people that I can hold space for that. And I think, you know, that may not be the most glorious purpose. It's not the thing that's maybe gonna land me on a billboard, but it's the thing

that like God trained me for. It's the thing that's maybe gonna land me on a billboard, but it's the thing that God trained me for. It's the thing that my life has bloomed into, and I love it. I love that. I love how you break that down, and also you spoke to how people overuse words, because half the time, people don't even know how to answer that question,

well, what is your purpose? I remember I was watching one of my friends on a live, like ex, a guy, like she said in order to date somebody they have to know their purpose, like, but you know, she was on live with certain people and the guy was like, I don't even know what you talking about when you say that. And so, in return she said he was dumb,

but it was like, no, he really didn't know what that mean, like me, I still don't know what my purpose is, I mean I'm grateful for the woman that I'm becoming in my spiritual growth and everything But I still don't know what my purpose is and what if it's not just one thing, you know I'm exactly and that's the thing. It's not yeah, it's not you know and like It's okay if finding your purpose takes your whole life Yeah, it's the point of being alive.. Why do we think we have to move so quickly through everything?

That's the validation piece, right? That's the wanting to be seen in it or celebrated for it. But if it's your life's work, it is supposed to take your whole life. Yeah, that's right. Because my mother-in-law, my husband's mother, she literally just told me, she just found out what her purpose is,

and that is to take care of, like to oversee her granddaughter. I just gave her a beautiful granddaughter, her very first grandchild, and that's what she said holding the baby, like a few months ago. Oh, I know what my purpose is now, is to be here with my family

and to take care of my family, because she was living out the country for decades. Please don't. No, that was him. That's him. He started it. What just happened? You started it.

Why you let him? I was letting you have this moment. He started it. I didn't say anything. You say, we can't do this about Debbie Hill. That's right. Her mother-in-law is Mexican. Okay.

Wait, what are we talking about? Don't, don't. I'm from LA. What are we talking about? That's what I mean. They're trying to say because of ICE being bought. No, we ain't got nothing to do with ICE. No, what are you talking about? She came back.

What? I have nothing to do with ICE. She came back over here to take care of my child. Every day they joke about her being sent back, Davi. You know what? Yes, literally. So, I'm just kidding. I'm just kidding.

I'm just kidding. I'm just kidding. I'm just kidding. I'm just kidding. I'm just kidding. I'm just kidding. I'm just kidding. I'm just kidding. I'm just kidding. I'm just kidding. I'm just kidding. I'm just kidding. Okay, my child. And every day they joke about her being sent back to me.

And I don't know what to do. You know what? Yes, literally. I mean, I understand the friction in this room. I get why. They just have to grow up, because, oh gosh. Damn. Is there anything else you want to give her?

I don't even want to talk about it anymore. Thank you, dad. Thank you, Deb. Thank you so much. But no, you do say in the book, Deb, that you cannot have purpose without wisdom, and you can't have purpose or wisdom without acknowledgement of every single experience. Yeah.

Yeah, acceptance. Acknowledge your life. This is the thing. And I think for people that go through things, which is all of us, as soon as it switches and you start to have respect for yourself for how you move through something, it changes everything. So it's like lean into your lived experiences.

If you're not thinking about your hardest experiences, you're leaving something on the table. Like you're leaving a lot of abundance on the table because those are our keys. Those are our keys to the next level. Those are our keys to deeper layers of our own self. I remember you told me that one time and it really did help change my life

and just the way I look at things. Cause it's like, I remember you told me every single version of you deserves grace. Every version of you deserves love. Every version of you deserves that healing. And I you deserves love. Every version of you deserves that healing. And I just, when you told me that, I'm like, you know, we all try to run from certain parts of our lives. And it's just like, no, you was that person.

You should embrace that person and give that person grace. And look how much, I mean, if I could, if y'all would allow, like, even just when I see the two of y'all, especially because I've known y'all for long and seen you over so many different versions while also being at the top of your game, it's like something I've always admired, especially the last 10 years about you, MB,

is like the way you and your wife have moved through the world is so powerful and it is so healing for so many people. And to see the way that you both decided to look at one another in your hardest moment and seek whatever needed to be done, no stone left unturned to repair your hearts and to then continue to be phenomenal parents

to your children is like, that is a literally an example of what it is to like glean the wisdom from your experiences and turn it into purpose like that pain point for the two of you Because you chose to be with it to look at it to feel everything that was in it Look how many lives you've blessed, you know It's like the count will go on and on till the end of time like someone could find your books in 50 years and it could be radically transformative for them.

Like that is dealing with your hard experiences and the darker points and transmuted it into purpose and making it wisdom. The same, I mean, so many experiences with you as well. And when you think even Jess, from a career standpoint and all the ways that you've elevated and grown every step of the way You have taken accountability for every version of who you are And then you've literally shown up as the proof of who you've become you know not just

Tongue-in-cheek like you're not just saying that like it's like you have always Become a new version and then paid everything forward. And I think that's the living example of exactly what I'm saying. I do wanna ask you one more thing for you, GoDev, because we talk about you being on radio and there's certain moments, like this morning, I'm like, I do wonder what Dev would think about this.

And it was in regards to Kanye, right? And you know, Kanye, last week he posted he posted oh my mother was a lesbian then this week he posted that he sucked his cousin's penis you know until he was 14 and in my mind like if you're not going to go get help Kanye what are we supposed to do with this information I wonder what do you think? That's a hard question to answer because I don't want to be someone to give anybody a diagnosis, right? Like that is not my profession, that's not my right. In the past, and I don't know if he still identifies in this way, in the past he has made mention that he does have mental illness.

So here's the thing that I think we all really need to be a lot more real about. What is the difference between like mental health and mental illness? What is the difference between like giving someone grace because they have anxiety and you know they're struggling and actually giving grace to people that may be mentally ill? Nothing in his behavior seems odd to me if I look at it through that lens. And so if we see it through that lens, and again, I don't know what or if there are any diagnoses

present in his life. But if that was the case, we have to be honest about that. And we have to be honest about how we receive and experience people. if someone is ill In that way know perhaps they can't do better No, perhaps they can't get help if you are just suffering in your mental health, but you are not mentally ill It is a lot easier and more possible to get help and change certain dynamics of yourself If you actually have illness,

that's something else entirely. And so I think that is, that's something I would like to see change in the kind of like mainstream conversations as we talk about people like, who is ill and does not have the ability to make different choices, especially if they're having a big response in their illness, and

who is just not getting help because they don't feel like it or want to or there's ego involved. So, you know, that is my thought on that. It's been so hard to watch, you know, I think for a lot of us, and it's been going on for a long time, but it's like, this is someone that also added a lot of joy to a lot of our lives Right, like when I think of the graduation album, that's like when we first met I Was so broke and so confused and so like and that album gave me hope, you know, and so

It's hard to watch who he's become because I don't agree with so much of his behavior. Absolutely. All right. Debbie Brown, Living in Wisdom, a path to embodying your authentic self, embracing grief and developing self mastery available everywhere you buy books now. Go pick it up. If you love the sound of Deb's voice, if you miss her on the radio, you can go get the audio version as well.

And make sure you subscribe to her podcast, the Deeply Well podcast on the Black Effect iHeartRadio podcast network. Dev, you already know I love you to death. I love you. Thank you for those kind words. Thank you so much, I appreciate it. Thank you, Three, I love you, big fan.

Jess, she was singing your praises for a while. I was. Even before we hired you. Yes. I was texting him all the time. I was like, she is amazing. Oh my God. And I also have to say, I just want to say like for you, thank you for what you give to the world. And thank you for the example you show up in. Like you're an amazing mom, an entrepreneur, an incredibly talented and gifted woman across fields. And you're an amazing mom, an entrepreneur, an incredibly talented and gifted woman across fields,

and you're doing all of it, you know? And I think that that, no one can really understand how hard that is, especially as a mom to give your kids the love they deserve and show up in your purpose for other people. So thank you. Thank you, Debbie. All right. Appreciate you. And thank you, Debbie, for being So thank you. Thank you. All right.

Appreciate you. And thank you Debbie for being you who you are. Thank you Debbie Brown for being Debbie Brown. Thank you. And I still remember that conversation we had last time. I remember her knocking nobody out. That never happened. Do we have to get back to that?

I don't remember that. I don't remember that. Give each other grace, even the oldest. It's the Breakfast Club. All the versions. Wake that ass up. Early in the morning's the Breakfast Club. and giving the real behind the scenes K-pop stories. Plus you're the fans, you're part of the show. And you can get a chance to jump in, share your opinions

and be part of the conversation like never before. And trust me, you never know where we might pop up next. So listen to the K-Factor starting on April 16 on iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast or wherever you get your podcast. This isn't just a podcast, it's a K-pop experience. Are you in? Let's go.

Peace to the planet. I go by the name of Charlamagne the God. And guess what? I can't wait to see y'all at the third annual Black Effect podcast festival. That's right. We're coming back to Atlanta, Georgia, Saturday, April 26th at Pullman Yards.

And it's hosted by none other than Decisions Decisions, Mandy B and Weezy, okay? We got the R&B Money podcast with Tank and Jay Valentine. We got the Woman of All podcast with Sarah Jake Roberts. The Funky Friday podcast with Cam Newton. The Neck and Sports podcast with Carrie Champion. Good Moms, Bad Choices podcast. The Trap Nerds podcast and many more will be on that stage live.

And of course, it's bigger than podcasts. We're bringing the black effect marketplace with black-owned businesses, plus the food truck court to keep you fed while you visit us. All right? Listen, you don't want to miss this. Tap in and grab your tickets now at blackeffect.com slash podcast festival. Proudly sponsored by Nissan. If money is a taboo topic and nobody wants to talk about it, how can we be educated on something we're unwilling to talk about? April is financial literacy, and Black Tech Green Money is where culture meets capital.

Each week, I sit down with black entrepreneurs and leaders to share their blueprint for building generational wealth through tech, innovation, and ownership. Once we know more, we can have more. One thing is, when we tell our clients is, the more that you learn, the more that you earn, but you have to be willing to learn.

To hear this and more game-changing insight, listen to Black Tech Green Money on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. 70% of Americans are living from paycheck to paycheck. Not black people, not brown people, everybody. And whether you're white, black, red, brown, or yellow, you wanna see some more green. Can I get an amen?

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