The Breakfast Club - INTERVIEW: Dr. Jay Barnett & Dr. Joel Tudman Talk Men's Mental Health, Friendships, Finding Yourself + More

Episode Date: October 10, 2025

Today on The Breakfast Club, Dr. Jay Barnett & Dr. Joel Tudman Talk Men's Mental Health, Friendships, Finding Yourself. Listen For More!YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@BreakfastClubPower1051FMSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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The good brother, Dr. Jay Barnett, along with Dr. Joel Tudman. How are y'all brothers doing, man? Man, we're good, man. Feeling good, man. You know, you see Dr. Jay on the Just Hill podcast. Y'all go on the Just Hill tour together. Yeah, yeah, man.

So it's been excited, man, the Just Hill podcast with Dr. Jay, man. We lunched back in April. And just to see how it's grown, uh shaw was on me for years like bro you got to do a podcast like you got to be on the network and um i'm i wasn't if i can be honest i wasn't a podcaster because i'm like man just how this is this is a gift that y'all do to get up and and the talk and all of that i love to speak because when i speak it's um i have this this structure uh that i follow and then i'm going

these different places but podcast has really grown me to hear other people's stories So it's like therapy in real time. And from having my sis to Raji on, Kirk Franklin, RICO Love, and then I have some people who are just everyday people that are sharing their healing journeys and just sharing where they are. So it's been a fun journey, man. So now I can officially say, Jess, I'm a podcast. Period. I know that's right. I love it.

You guys have, like, a really cool dynamic because, I mean, you're a pastor, you do with mental health and, like, all these things, right? But y'all know in our community a lot of times when you're going through some people, be like, just pray about it. How do y'all have conversations around that? It's more than prayer. I think prayer is very essential, but it's the backbone. It's a substratum of everything.

But there has to be practical application because you're human. So that is the spiritual component. But if you don't have friendship, you don't have people that can help walk you through the journey, then you'll often become lost. And I like to say people become mystic. They just stay in this spookyville. And again, that's not to talk about. about the church background,

because I have a strong church background. But having therapists, having people that can actually supply sufficient support really can help change the dynamic of what you're going through. I think that's very important. And Dr. Joe, you used to be an associate pastor at the Potterhouse, right?

Yes, sir. But then you left to go to Florida? I didn't know that could happen. They made it sound like you was transferring schools or something. You were playing one place and you went to go someplace like that. You didn't know that could happen. I mean, I just the way they, I guess the potter house so big,

you know, the way they worded it. I'm like, okay. No, no, I went there to learn from who I believe to be the greatest of all times. I think Bishop Jake's is the greatest of all times. And I went there to learn. And there was an opportunity that opened up in Florida. And so that's how I ended up there. I ended up there because he trained me, I was prepared, and we ended up in Florida.

And God's been good to me since I've been there. Yeah. How did that work, though? Like when you, like, what does the spirit tell you? Like, I want to be, I need you to go, you know, lead this congregation now, lead this flock now. Like, what, what is it? What hits you when? I was in Oklahoma originally.

And when I was there, I knew that I wasn't going to be there forever. And so the opportunity for change didn't start at the Potter's house. I was coaching at Oklahoma State University and pasturing at the same time. And so the opportunity to shift came at a good season. fine. My work was doing great. And I went to preach for Bishop Jakes. So I had to sit back and realize, okay, the things that I want to see happen in the future, career-wise and ministry-wise, came through an opportunity of another individual. There wasn't a voice from heaven that came down and said, move. It wasn't bad. It was a man of God looked at me and said, what's your future?

What do you want to be? What do you see happening? Where you want to go? And when I told him that, then it unlocked something for me to start looking at. And when I started looking at it, I start saying all the insufficiencies, all the places that needed work, all the places that needed a model or mentor, and he filled their void. And then from there, it was a challenge. What do you want? And I had to answer that question.

And that answer was move. Wow. That's what y'all met, right? Yeah, yeah. We met in Dallas. A friend of mine had sent me a video and was like, yo, I just found your spirit animal. I was like, all right. So I started watching his clips.

He's in the gym, killing it. He's a sprinting conditioning code, so we got the whole football background. But I'm watching how he speak. And I said, yo, I really rock with this dude. So I'm going to say, pause. I slid his DMs. But I hit him up and like, yo, brother, I love what you doing, man.

And we had some exchange, but didn't know that we both moved to Dallas during the pandemic at the same time. and slowly, you know, started kind of engaging. But I'd engage him to come on my tour to Jess hear, bro. I had four voices and I was like, you know, we need a five. And I could reach out to him. I said, bro, I want you to go on tour.

Now, here's the story about the development of our friendship. This brother was not having it, Jess. Okay. And the more I would text him is like, hey, man, you know, brother, you know, look forward to having you on tour. He would come on the tour. He would get on stage, do his thing, and was just sitting in the back and wouldn't say anything.

Right. And I felt, you know, that he needed friendship, but I also felt compelled. Like, I just couldn't let it go. Yeah. And I would text him and check in on him. Like, hey, man, I hope you all is well. Brother, just checking in.

And he would just text back the arm emoji, the muscle. I'd be in. Because he was not, and I understood as we begin, because it's difficult, Shaw. men and study shows men have a difficult time making friends after 35 and this is the real reason why a lot of men are suffering

in silence and suffering in their mental help because of the lack of community and the lack of friendships. They're not like women. They don't engage and most men don't build friendships beyond their workplace. And our friendship started from a challenge of who can lose the most weight

and get down to the lowest body And that built the friendship that people see that we have today and the love that I have for this brother. And I saw it in him. Like I said, bro, you're one of the best to me. And I think when you are building friendship, you want to have friendships where somebody can see more in you than you see in yourself in that current space. Why were you so guarded, Dr. Tubman? Yeah, please. Tell the world how it's how it. tell the world how he would leave me on red and it didn't bother me because, and I want to add this, when you have dealt with your rejection or abandonment issues, how a person responds

doesn't trigger you. Yeah. Because I didn't know what his experience was, but I knew I wanted to keep showing up for him. Friendship is important to me. It's very essential and I'm too old to start over in certain places. So for

me, I have fresh rooms. fresh wounds as it pertains to male to male friendships, brothers, real strong relationships. And I had just gotten to the point to where I was okay without the relationship. And so when this good brother reached out to me, he was very persistent. I didn't understand him. I didn't understand this process, his makeup, he's a therapist. So his mental is really, really strong. Mind's strong, but it's more defensive versus just being vulnerable.

So I had a difficult time trying to be vulnerable. And so he kept pressing, it kept pressing, it kept pressing. I wasn't really interested in that. I was okay. I wasn't. I wasn't. I was okay with working out. So I was doing a challenge.

He jumped in on Instagram and said, yo, I can now run you. I was like, man, get out of here with all that. You're too big, you know? So that's what happened. So we went into this 40-day challenge, and then maybe 20-something days would with into the challenge. He kept coming on my lives, kept coming on. kept coming on. He said, man, once you meet me, let's box. So that's what happened. I met him at the

gym, somewhere in the 20s of the count, and our friendship started taking off. Now, as it started taking off, I was still very, very guarded because I was not going to get another homie, another homeboy. I was fine, okay? But as we continued to train, we started having therapeutic conversations about what's going on in your mind. Why are you having a hard time dealing with abandonment, rejection, what actually happened. And then, as far as my career speaking, he said, hey, man, I want you to come on a tour with me. I went on the tour, but I still wasn't going to get close to all the rest of the guys. I had broken through with him just a little bit.

So we'd go on the tour, we'd do our thing, and I sit in the back. I'm not talking because I don't want to be involved emotionally again that way. However, we broke through. He's become my best friend over five years now. I have a much softer side I was too hard and I think God did an amazing thing by bringing them into my life

so now I don't have I had what's called toxic masculinity very toxic and break that down because somebody gonna hear that and they're gonna create their own definition of toxic I love the honesty though

I love that but you know what JT I don't think it was really toxic I just think it was guarded because we both had father wound And when you've had father wounds, it's hard to build male-to-male friendships. Because when you have not been fathered well, you're very guarded and you're very defensive because there's a part of you that have not had a very safe relationship with another man. Yeah.

So for another man and, you know, like, you know, I buy flowers and, you know, I mean, I'm all the things. But then the duality of that I'm a lion and a lamb. And so he got to see that. But I understood it. And it wasn't that I needed a friend. I just, like, there's just some people that you just felt drawn to. Yep. And I think that's beautiful.

That's a great way to put it, lying and lamb. I was all lying. No lamb in sight. So to actually start experiencing other men that were so transparent that they could so show you the lamb, that took time for me to adjust. So I wasn't going to express how I felt. Bishop Jakes broke me from that He kept saying how do you feel And I was sending a strong-on emoji

Or I would send fire You know And he says I'm tired of that Explain to me what you feel But I didn't have the language I didn't have the language to explain it That's a part of that toxicity as well Because if you can't explain it

You throw signs And so it took me going through All of the therapy Why I rejected my father Why my father wasn't there the terrible relationships with my parents, the terrible relationships with my brothers and sisters, all of the things that were wrong with me,

I started paying attention to the tension because the tension was causing me to break. So if you don't pay attention to the tension, you will pay for the tension. And that's what actually happened. So because I wasn't paying attention to the tension, the tension started fracturing me. And not only did it fracture me,

it started fracturing the relationships around me. And everybody knows what a fracture is. A fracture is a break that you can't see, all right? It's a hairline fracture. But there's a break there. And what ends up happening is some kind of blow is going to create a break to become visible to where you're going to have to either cast it or break it completely so they can reset it. And that's what happened to all of the relationships that I was attached to.

It wasn't their fault. It was my fault because I had allowed so much pressure, so much tension to coming to my own personal life, it became difficult for me to converse productively but other people, especially other men. But what about when it's not your fault? Because I agree with, you know, what you said, Dr. Jay, about the father wound, but that homeboy wound is real too, you know what I'm saying? That's a real wound, too.

Because when I love, I love hard. If I ever called you my brother and then you betray me in some way, it's just like, damn, it's hard to let people in after that. I can't control what he does, but I can control how I handle it. And that's what happened. I couldn't control it. I was covering it, and I needed therapy to deal with what happened between the two of us, the previous homing.

But, and I think also to that, JT, and then to what you said, Sharr, like, the same experience that he had was a betrayal of a close friend. I had the same thing, and it was so difficult for me because I saw men as just being, I wouldn't say just a point of contact, but just almost like, you know, it's just a homeboard, a homeboy. But for me to call you a brother, that's, it's like, that's, that's a different level of love. It's, it's just like when you tell somebody, I love you. You know, I mean, that changes your disposition toward them. That's why I don't throw out, I love you.

You know what I mean? And so, because that's now, that's now a different level of expression of my, of my feelings toward you. And I think for me, that betrayal, man, I was just like, dude, how do you even, because when you're in your 30s and you started age, I felt what he felt like, man. How do you start to build friendship again because we all know friendship takes time and then not on that friendship also requires a level of vulnerability.

And I didn't want to be vulnerable like that again. I think for me it's like this. I had two of the same thing, two opposing things happen at the same time. So I get betrayed by this one guy that we've been boys for 20-something years. Then I got this other guy that is trying to befriend me, all right?

And he is being 100% open saying, hey, I don't want anything from you. I just believe I'm supposed to be here for you. All right. This is prior to him. Yeah. And this guy's pouring his heart out. But I don't have what I need to give this guy. So it breaks this guy.

It breaks him so bad to where he's like, you know what? Man, I've given enough. So I've got to protect me. So when I felt like I was ready once I realized, okay, I think, think I'm better now. I tried to go back and repair that relationship, and he didn't receive me the way I thought he should receive me, and I went back selfish again. I was like, hey, man, I came to you.

I'm apologizing. But then I realized I hurt that guy, even though I didn't have the language, I didn't have everything to give to him, but I learned it through him. He was a therapist. He's teaching me. He's, hey, man, you heard him. Now you've got to go through the process and walk that out. That's a part of me understanding, becoming more healthy.

getting that toxicity out of me because if I hadn't learned the language I would have been ticked off at this dude I said I came to you I tried to I said I'm sorry I told you I didn't have the language you can't forgive me but that's wrong I got to give him time to process

it is not his fault that I didn't have what it took to give him what he needed so that's why I said regardless of what the other individual did you got to fix you if you don't fix you you can't help repair anything

it all starts with you You have to own the responsibility of what's going on with you. That's real. How do you, what does that process look like? Because I do the same thing. I'm in the same boat. Like literally right now, I have, I've been betrayed by a friend after friend at the friend. And that's fine.

I'm getting all the snakes out to go. And that's cool, you know, because where I'm going, I can't take everybody. So that's fine. But even in business, I don't trust nobody. That's my problem, you know. And when somebody called me a sister, the same thing, you know. got friends, called me sister, whether it's friends in business or whatever, you know, if I call you my sister or my brother, yeah, and I feel like you do some, some ish that'll

make me side out of you. It's like, yo, I don't, I don't know how to look at you. I don't know how to continue to have, you know, a level of loyalty or a level of respect, you know what I mean, or just even want to be around you. It just gets weird, you know. I got a question for you. Yeah. Why do you keep bringing that same type of person into your?

life to even have to ask that question. I don't know how they get in. They be sneaking in. I don't be bringing people. They can't sneak in. She left the window open, she left the window open. I mean, so, you know, so I think, I think we all can agree, right? Like, you know, me and Shaw talk about this all the time, right? I mean, I think we can all agree that as we are elevated, and particularly when

are elevated in the public's eye, it requires, like, Jess, I remember when you first started. Yeah. Right? Just with the medicine, you know what I'm saying? When you were just doing your thing. And I think what happens is, as God has elevated me, it is required a level of sagaciousness, right? Which is this discernment that I have to really operate in because now that you at this place, everybody wants something.

And one of the things that Bishop told me, he said, you're going to have to get accustomed to disappointing people that want to be next to you. Yeah. And so what I've had to really look at and give attention to is, why are you here? Yeah. You know, like, if he would have never responded in the way, that was, how long with that period of time you went silent on me? Three months. Three months.

And I would text him, Lauren, and no response. But it didn't bother me, Sean. I'll text him sometimes. It's like none of that bothers me because I know, but I don't go into that I do. I don't go into that because the the genuineness of who I am as a person is that whether you respond or not, I just want you to know that I'm here and that you're thought of. And I think we have too many people now because the world has become very transactional. And if we're honest, most individuals' mental health is on edge.

Most people are just one decision away from moving into a psychosis. And I think it just requires another level of discernment. And then also realizing what types of people do I need in this season? You're married now, right? So the people that you need in your life right now, it's not necessarily that they have to be married, but they have to be people that have a level of authenticity, level of genuineness and wholeness

lacking nothing meaning that if I don't hear from you if I can't give you nothing you're still here right yes he said wholeness nobody wholeness I know he didn't say whole she's making sure you're going to have to trust people though

yeah I know you're going to have to start trusting people and understand that a part of trust it comes with being broken I mean it's just a part of it Expound on that, Dr. Tubman. Because I agree with the trust problem. You have to be open to the fact that you may get hurt.

So protecting yourself, you're only hurting yourself because you could be protecting yourself from what's going to actually heal you. Okay? So you could be the cause of staying in the same cycle because you won't trust. And so because you don't trust, you stay fractured. You got to trust people. That doesn't mean you have to trust.

them at the same dimension. You know that. You don't have to trust me to take care of your kids, you know, but you can do your work to make sure that, okay, I'm going to use him to fix my car. So how many people have, how many cars have you fixed before? Do your work, do your due diligence like you do with everybody else. And then you've got to step back and trust the process. But knowing the process may break down. Is that the same mindset as like not expecting you from other people? Absolutely. Yeah. And you, I think a good friend in mind, Aiken Aydell told me, divorce yourself from the results and fall in love with the process.

That's easy. That's easy for you to say that until you start doing it. So you're going to always say that. Most people say that. It's easy to say than that. Try it. There's going to be lessons that you learn from being broken. There's going to be lessons that you learn from the actual relationship actually form.

so he talked about the time that I didn't respond to him two months I think it was I didn't respond to me was three was it three yeah I didn't respond to him because here's the deal my answer is the same now listen to my answer is the same I didn't have the language I didn't have the language for what I was going through how long are you going to use that story but that answer is not going to keep working for you if you want to live your best life but but I think also I'm talking By me, y'all. But it was valid because also you didn't really know what it was. And you spell trust, T-I-M-E is how you really spell trust.

It's time. Yeah. The time, I mean, I was okay with him going through his process. And I think what broke him was this brother's not going here. He's still there. Still there. Because it wasn't contingent upon him responding. and I think what most of us

it's always about what is their response because we live in such a by text you most people have anxiety from okay they didn't text back the job hasn't called yet you know what I mean and things like moving and so we are we are operating

with this rapid response you know as God begin to expand me I didn't realize like just sometime I'm overwhelmed with text messages and I can't respond And it's not that I'm leaving you on red because I don't want to talk to it. It's like, I'm overwhelmed because it's like,

man, I got to process what I need to say. And then I'm thinking about this email. And then my manager's like, hey, can you give me this? Publicist is saying, can you send me that? So I had to realize that I need to change my position even within myself and to give myself grace that, man, I don't even have the words right now. And being okay with that.

and then being okay with being perceived as, oh, so you can't respond? Yeah, right. So you're, right, that's me too. See, I don't trust you all. Y'all know too much. But yeah, like, that's, I'll be thinking about the other person, like, trying to think for them.

You can't do that. Oh, it's exhausting, Jess. It's exhausting. Yeah. Let me ask both of you all a question, right? Can't time be an illusion in a relationship? And what I mean by that is you can be with some, you can know somebody for years and years and years and years and years

and think you trust them, right? But then they be the ones that betray you, but then you might meet somebody that you knew for a shorter period of time and you feel more loyalty to that individual. Oh, yeah. That's a loaded question. That's a loaded question,

because you can't effectively diagnose that statement without hearing from the other individual. What is it that created distrust in them? What is it that created? them to pull back from you. They may have found something on you or in you or with you that caused them to pull away. So that's hard. That's hard to look at. And then with this new person, is it a trauma bond? Are you connected to them because you broken over there and they

were able to supply something to you? Because the keyword you used was feel. Filings, they come and go. You may feel that way right now in 30 days and in the 31st day. You feel like you felt with the last person that changed. So we can't use that statement. I think at the end of the day, when it comes to time, time is what it is. Whether you want to call it an illusion or whether you want to call it reality, it's how you invest it, okay? What am I investing in the moments of time with the people that I believe deserve my time?

My question to you is, and I'm asking you this question, because look at where we are today. Yeah. and to your point sharp it's like Lauren and you can hop in because I would want to know your thoughts and process on how you've navigated this space because there's people that

was rocking with me and I think as I begin to do this it's shifted and I think that this loyalty was also if we're going to keep it above some level of insecurity within themselves because most people if they're riding

with you most people's fears is that they want to be left behind. Yeah, a lot of people. That if you become what I see, the trajectory that I see of you, and I think that disloyalty comes in because it's like, man, they've gotten there and nothing has happened for me. I've seen a lot of that. And then I've seen what you're saying,

where people that I've met through the Expo that we've been locked in, you know what I mean, because our missions align. And I also think, too, for the public, is be open to levels of friendship shifting because your life is shifting. That's beautiful. Like, you have to be open

because most people won't change. And particularly if your life change in a major way because they're always going to see you how they met you and how the world is coming to know you is challenging for them because in their mind, I still see you at Lauren's Delft. from Dell State. Yeah.

I think I've been blessed to have people who had always saw me, sometimes bigger than I saw myself. So as things are going up for me, like, you know, not everything has changed, but I think the hardest thing I had to learn was I can't call everybody about everything. And when people take offense to that,

I can't take it personal. And sometimes I do realize that maybe there's an insecurity and like, you know, people are trying to like figure out where they are positioned in my life now. It's like, well, why are you doing this now? you didn't do that a year ago when I had time to do different things or when I needed to call you more because at that season in my life it made more sense. So that has made me think about different things and different people and like not disassociating

fully but just like being very careful about when I bring those conversations, those people into my life and where I bring them into and what I bring them around just because I don't know how sure they are about themselves and I don't have time to like I literally mentally can't I'm I told you when you walked in here today last night with the bed at 8 p.m. normally I'm at bed in like 1230, 1 o'clock, and I'm back up at 4 or 5 because I'm doing so much to prepare for here. I don't have time to figure out your insecurities

in my own at the same time. You know what I'm saying? I've just had to learn how to like really prioritize, realize that I can't take anything personal because people take everything personal now. And, you know, the people that make, like there are certain people I call about certain things now that if I were to call other people,

not that I love them less, you wouldn't even understand what I'm talking about. So I just can't do that. I also have been blessed to have like Jess, NV, and Charlamine. So as that's happening, I can call them. Yeah, I can't call him a lot though and be like, hey, I can't spend as much time my mom and my grandma right now. And it's breaking my heart.

And they fill away. What do I do? I got family members who are like, oh, when you come home, you're so tired. You don't want to spend time with us. But we see you everywhere else. I got friends that, you know, I can't, I'm not texting back as much in the group chat anymore. You know what I mean? You're in my business now, Lauren.

Yeah, but it's a part of it. I'm lucky, though. I do have good people around. me who kind of get it but I think everybody as a human you want to make sure oh am I still important to you you still love me like am I and that's a human thing has that and I'm not and this and it's not deep but like does it in some way you know maybe I don't want to say impact your mental help but yeah it does it weigh on you it does because you feel guilty um you feel like am I leaving people behind do I think I'm better than people like you start second

guessing things that you know are not true about yourself like I know how I was raised. I know what's important to me. I know what my priorities are and all the things. But when people you love and people that have been in your life and seeing you forever feel like I'm competing with people that are just starting to see you now, you feel a sense of responsibility for that. And for me, I've had to be like, oftentimes I sit and be like, how much of this do I

need to be accountable for and how much of this I can't, I have no control over. And that's tough. That's really, really tough because a lot of it, if you don't have control over, you can't control like literally there's nothing I can do so it's nothing you feel like you're breaking something that has been like your stability for your whole life because of a moment that's happening and then you second guess that like well if all this stops y'all even still going to love me anymore because y'all feel like I'm being new to y'all and I'm not being new I just I can't manage everything at one time you know what I mean like that mentally weighs on you a lot that is so profound man okay

Because anybody that's achieved anything is going to go through that. And if you have a good support circle, so commendable for you. And I would soak in it. I would soak in that support circle and then I would appreciate my support circle so that my support circle

can continue to feed into me. Because that other crew is going to always say what they feel. They don't even have an under, like you said, they don't even have the words to understand. They don't have the motions to understand what you're going through, how your life is on a rise and the demand for your life to be everywhere.

But at the same time, now they want you to still do what you used to do and you can't do it. So you've got to feed that circle. All I know is what I've been told. And that's a half-truth is a whole lie. For almost a decade, the murder of an 18-year-old girl from a small town in Graves County, Kentucky, went unsolved. until a local homemaker, a journalist, and a handful of girls came forward with a story. I'm telling you, we know Quincy Kilder, we know. A story that law enforcement used to convict six people, and that got the citizen investigator on national TV.

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a show about just how far our legal system will go in order to find someone to blame. Y'all better work the hell up. Bad things happens to good people in small towns. Listen to Graves County in the Bone Valley feed on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. And to binge the entire season ad free, subscribe to Lava for Good Plus on Apple Podcasts. Jay Chetty, host of the On Purpose podcast, I had the incredible opportunity to sit down with the one, the only, Cardi B. My marriage, I felt the love dying.

I was crying every day. I felt in the deepest depression that I had ever had. How do you think you're misunderstood? I'm not this evil, mean person that people think that I am. I'm too compassionate. I have sympathy for that my man. Put so much heart and soul into your work. What's the hardest part for you to take that criticism?

This shit was not given to me. I worked my ass off for me. Even when I was a stripper, I'm going to be the best pole dancer in here. When was the moment you felt I did it? I still, to this day, don't feel comfortable. I fight every day to keep this level of success because people want to take it from you so bad. Listen to On Purpose with Jay Chetty on the IHeart Radio app,

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That's all gone. In the 1980s, modeling wasn't just a dream. It was a battlefield. Book, book, book, big deals. Let's get models in. Let's get them out. And the models themselves? They carried scars that never fully healed. Till this day, honestly, if I see a measuring tape, I freak out. The Model Wars podcast peels back the glossy cover and reveals a high-stakes game where survival meant more than beauty.

Hosted by me, Vanessa Grigoriatis, this is the untold story of an industry built on ruthless ambition. Listen to Model Wars on the I-Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. It's feeding you so you can constantly stay uplifted because if you don't, eventually that crew could possibly turn into that crew if you don't feed them to make sure they understand what the journey is like for you.

So kudos for you for having this circle that actually can still feed you what you need to still feel normal because as you become more successful, it seems like shots fire from everywhere. And kind of he and I were talking about it. when you have to process publicly, what you go what should be privately, it becomes so difficult

and then that weighs so much on you mentally, especially for pastors. That's why you see so many pastors fall or commit suicide because it's difficult to process publicly. Nobody wants to process publicly.

I don't care what position you have in the world. I have a question for you off of that. Recently, everything that happened with you in Faith City. So you were there, and then they sent out a letter to say that you would no longer be senior pastor. That was very public, especially, because you know the church, they want to know what happened. No one knows why that happened.

So two questions. I don't know if you can share what actually happened. And the second question, you spoke about it. How was processing that publicly? What happened? We disagreed. We disagreed in mission. I didn't do anything wrong.

Nothing illegal. but we disagreed and the disagreement didn't allow us to go forward so that relationship was severed um processing it has been difficult

because it's public and it hurt I love those people I love those people I love him and

trying to move forward is something you have to do to live I don't care what the career is and if you stay in a fracture you're going to break you're going to crumble so trying to move forward with a cast

when everyone is already determined predetermined what you've done and have absolutely no idea and no information no information that's it's difficult so trying to talk to your children

pick your children up and move anywhere no matter of what the career is, to get them to trust you as a father, hey, I made a right decision to pick us up and move us across the world and then have to turn to figure out how we're going to make it, the pressure of this was what it was,

now I've got to figure out how to make it what it is. It's difficult as a husband, as a provider. Now, do I trust in God? 100% I trust in all the skills that God has given me and he has opened up doors

that are just unbelievable for me. So processing it has been I'm not going to say difficult but it's been uneasy. But through it all, I still thank God that's not a church answer. That's my faith because I know all things work together.

I wish you were here. because you know we got the mental wealth expo this we got called and yeah my good sister Debbie Brown came up with this she wanted to do this panel called a reclaiming faith healing from religious trauma and Pastor Carl Linz and Dr. Teddy Reeves are on it and I think it was a little crate I was up here talking about church hurt yes it was like man what do you do when when your trauma comes from your sanctuary when that hurt comes from that place you go for salvation man I I think one of the things that my father's passed in 35 years walking alongside, you know, him, you know, when you look at church, it's a hospital.

Yeah. And it's a hospital that has a lot of sick people who don't take their meds. And when you have people who don't take their meds, you have people who don't understand how their behaviors don't understand how their reaction impacts those that are in the hospital as well. So it's almost like you in one room and you're trying to get some rest because the doctor said you need to rest and you have somebody down here that is having a breakdown because they just heard a diagnosis that they can't change. And I think the unfortunate thing that has happened is that a lot of churches have not thought about mental health in the faith conversation. And I say you can't talk faith, you can't talk God and omit mental health. health. When God made us, he made mind, body, and spirit. Mental health is your social. It's your emotional and physical makeup. It's how we do life. I call mental health life in motion. There is

nowhere around it. And I think now you're seeing a turn. Some pastors are, you know, bringing in mental health professionals. Some pastors are bringing in clinicians and different things like that. Because what I saw growing up is what you speak about, I saw people that were, you know, embarrassed. I can see right now this young girl when we were growing up who got pregnant

and they bring her before church and I'm like all right where's the guy? So you brought the girl before church and that she's pregnant

but where's the guy? Right? It takes two to tango, right? So now you have this young girl who grows up with this level of shame and it's trauma

because they brought her out before and you have a lot of embarrassment and so I feel that churches have focused on saving souls but not restoring minds. Wow. You have to restore a person's mind.

It's great that we're going to get their spirit saved and you want people to, you know, go to heaven. But I think it's important that we begin helping people on how to not just come to the alt and throw their hands up and be, you know, delivered, but how to walk this thing out for their complete healing. Because it's one thing, especially like, let's just take somebody who's dealt with molestation,

abandonment, rejection. and it's caused these unhealthy things yeah I pray for you lay hands on you put oil on you you greases like greasy like a piece of chicken and you know what I'm saying so but it's like now this person leave and there's no support yeah and and the reason church hurt hurt so bad because people have an expectation that I would be treated better in here that I am out there right and I and it's just unfortunate you know that we you know have so many people particularly black culture. And religious trauma is a real thing. It's called RTS, Religious Traumatic Syndrome. It's a real diagnosis in the DSM. And most of us are challenged with it because we thought

we would see God and the very people who said, come as you are. Yeah. Yeah. But let's make sure that we're clear. The church is full of trauma. It is not absent of trauma. The very church itself was founded on trauma, okay? Jesus being beaten, it's traumatic. Being betrayed prior to being beaten. It's traumatic. His disciples leaving him, it's traumatic.

Okay? All of this trauma, you die. The most horrible death, crown of thorns, nails in your hands, in your feet, pierced in the side, bloody and naked. It's trauma. The whole thing is trauma. The 12 or the 11 that take off running

to go back to doing what they were doing prior when they see that he's dead, they're dealing with trauma. They're like, no, I'm going back fishing. Forget this. I can't do this. Jesus comes back. There's so much trauma with them, they don't believe it.

Even though Jesus told him, I'm coming back. Trauma changed the brain. See the trauma? It's all trauma. Well, Jesus comes back. Boom. He restores Peter.

So there's the restoration that the church should have. So he restores him. Hey, feed me. Do you love me? Yeah, feed my sheep. You love me, feed my sheep. You love me, feed my sheep. Boom.

He restores him. He does his thing. Jesus gets ready to leave. He says, look, y'all go wait on the power. Wait on the power. And then they come out. So they get the power. They start evangelizing the book of Acts.

They're doing their thing. The church is built off of that. So it's got an answer and it's got all these problems. So it's never going to be a place that you're going to go and it's absent of trauma. Yeah. Or it's absent of the things that you guys are talking about. I think the issue is trying to find the fine balance of this soul and spirit body balance when it comes to how we're giving that information. You've got some churches that believe that Sunday morning is pure word driven.

I'm going to teach you. I'm going to disciple you spiritually. Then you have some other churches that are a little bit more free and say, hey, we're going to do mental health stuff and therapy and fitness training on Sunday. There are other people that don't like that. I didn't come to church for that. I came to church for Genesis.

I ain't come to church for that. Okay? And then you have some churches that say, we're going to put together small groups where you can come get this mental health. Then you've got other churches that say, look, we've hired 10 therapists that are here. I think we have to go back to what I said earlier.

You got to own your thing. Something may have happened at the church, okay? There's no different than it happening right here in this company, but you still got to own your thing. If this station, a problem happens here, but you all still offer therapy, it's still up to me as an employee to go down to HR and say, listen, I need therapy.

No. I got to do, I got to own that. I said, once it real quick, Jay, I love your hospital analogy. I love everything that y'all saying. But if you went to a hospital where you were hurt and there was some of my practice, you probably wouldn't go back to that hospital. It depends. Yeah.

It depends, though. But me personally, I'm like, I'm not going back. However, I would have to see that you are up to par. I would have to see. No, go back. I'm coming in. I'm coming in like Superman. No, no.

I'm coming in like Superman. Because you said I wouldn't go back Go back to that institution That's okay Yeah but you're still going to another hospital Right You're still going to God You're going to another church

So it's fine They may hurt me over here at first baptism I'm going to second Baptist I'm not going to third Baptist Because after that This is too many baffles I didn't change the nominations I think it's very

I think that we have to be careful about what you just said You're not going back to that same local entity, but you will continue to go and seek God and build your relationship at another institution. But you still need to do one thing before you transfer.

Go to therapy. Now, when we say go to therapy, JT, because we got some people that's going to say, well, I don't believe in therapy, and particularly for us, healthcare has not been on our side. Mental health was not made for black folks. It was created for wealthy white.

man um and so what i tell people is that everyone is not going to go to therapy uh but there are experiences that you can have that can be therapeutic that can encourage you on your journey because therapy as we we talk about it's scary yeah in fact therapy causes such a disruption that you feel worse after the session's right because they're breaking up stuff they got you unpacking you know what I'm saying they got you they got you really thinking about things that you have moved into the back of your mind and said you know what I don't want to deal with that and then and and and and and if we're honest there's a posity of clinicians right now that are not I don't think and I tell this to every therapist every therapist should have a therapist because you cannot

take and ingest all of this in from other people right you have to go somewhere to process that So if you do go to therapy, make sure that your therapist, not just ethically, but make sure that they are sound, even in their own practice. And finding a therapist is just like dating. Ask those questions. Do you have an expertise in dealing with racial trauma? Have you work with people who've been molested by the same sex? Like you have to ask those questions because the worst thing that I hate that I don't like,

rather, is for someone to be open up and not closed properly. As what you just said, you go and have surgery and these jokers leave something in you, or they don't close you up properly, now it's turning to an infection, now it's turning to gang green, now it's a sudden we've got to move your whole liver because somebody mishandle you properly. I was going to say, but, okay, we're comparing it to no practice in the hospital. What I realize about hospitals is a lot of it is trial and error, and a lot of it is per person, right?

That's why it's called practice. Yeah, practice, right? So I say that to say, you can ask your therapist all those questions, but you don't know until you get with that therapist if they're going to close you back up properly. And then that makes people not want to do therapy sometimes after that that happens. So it's like, what do you tell people then? Well, therapy, you know, it's a relationship. The effectiveness of any therapist is determined by the quality of relationship that they build with the client. When I'm working with individuals and when I was in private practice, it was.

would be about four sessions in before I start asking deep questions. Because I'm mapping with them, I'm just talking to them because I want them to feel like we're having a conversation. Nobody wants to go in and all of a sudden, it's like, all of a sudden, you know, what happened to you was a kid?

Like, wait a minute. Right. Like, you're moving too fast. You know, it's like, you know, at least, you know, talk sweet to me. You know? Take me to dinner, you know? Yeah, at least take me to the cheesecake factory for some.

And so I think, too, it's a journey. You know, I've been saying this since I, you know, have been in this space healing is a journey, man. It's truly a journey. And it may take a few therapists for you to kind of work through. And I know that can be emotionally exhausting. And this is why I'm careful for anybody. Do not go in divulging everything.

Use wisdom. That is my thing when you're going into a clinical session because I've had people come to me. And it's like, well, Dr. Jay, the session turned into me helping my therapist. You know, and so you're right, Lauren, it can be very, it can be very scary. And then, too, if you have somebody who hasn't been processed and I tell every therapist, you can only take the client as deep as the work that you've done internally within yourself. Because it can become very pernicious, very dangerous for somebody to open up.

And then all of a sudden they leave feeling like, man, What did I just do? I just told you my business and that is. Here's what I want to add to it. You're going to be 20. You're going to be 25. You're going to be 30. You're going to be 35.

You're going to be 40. You're going to be 45. You're going to be 50. And you're going to be 55. You're going to be 60. And you're going to be 65. At what point are you going to say, I matter enough?

Yeah. to express myself. That's good, Jake. Because you're going to, you're going to continue to get old if you don't die. And do you have to ask your question, how has life been working for me? I'm the one that won't talk. I'm the one that won't sit down and actually get help. It's not the therapist's fault.

And it's not about fault. It's about me giving me a try to be better because I deserve to be better. and that process it is what it is it's not cookie cutter mine's not going to be what jays is not going to be what charlemagne's is it's going to be what it takes

to get me to where I need to be and you got to ask yourself the question am I worth what it takes to get where I need to be and where I need to be is not where you are it's where I need to be you got to stop lying to yourself right

at some point you got to be honest with who you know you are because we know each other. You know yourself better than anybody. You got to be honest with who you are and what you're feeling. And I think one of the hardest things for men to say to other men

and just in general, you know, that hurt my feelings. Or you hurt my feelings. Period. Y'all. Period. You know, that's a good thing. I'm about to be real hood right here.

Let's do it. Come on. It ain't really hood. I want you to bring out one of them brain love hoodies. That is hard. I know. I said that. Hey, yeah.

The fight. Oh, wow. I'm going to do the promotion for you, good brother. The fight you to find yourself. Wow. So my good brother, Dr. Joe, I'm going to let him talk about it, but I'm excited because he's had to live this book in real time.

Yes. And I think this book, it comes out November 4th. November 4. Nice. And it's so powerful. This year? November 4. Okay, okay, absolutely.

So I think it's so powerful because if it's going to be a fight to find yourself. You know, we've been rocking for years and, you know, every time I share you know my story about surviving two suicide attempts it was a fight because you know we talked about when even when Twitch passed it was triggering to me it's a fight to find yourself man so this book it's going to cost you something it's going to cost you something that's why when we were there it was the perfect way for me to just break it up it costs to find you it costs you it costs pride it costs

relationships and you have to ask yourself the question am I willing to pay that price to find myself and is it going to be embarrassing probably are there going to be some things that come up that you thought would never come up probably but if you think you're valuable enough to be who you know you're supposed to be it's worth the fight because most of the time in our life it's all about what we do it's about what you do what you do is what you do is with getting you paid your performance and so we become so performance driven everything we do is based off performance and so just like you just said earlier four o'clock in the morning eight o'clock at night that's our lives because we got to perform we got to be on an A game every time we get behind

a microphone it doesn't matter but there's no mic in your private life there's no mic with your emotions there's no mics with how you love your mother your children you know your spouse and you got to figure out how do I fight to just be me and And if I don't know who I am, it becomes even harder because I got to dig through performance to get there. And once you dig through all of the awards and dig through all of the accolades, what's there? Who am I at the core? And if you can't say who you are without presenting what you do, it's a very cloudy picture that you have no idea who you are. And I didn't find out who I was until I was 44 years old.

And I said it on a public stage. And other men said, I can't believe you just did that. And I cried. What did you say? I don't know who I am. And you know what they said? We've seen you preach on stages all over the world with thousands of people. You're all over the place.

People are being blessed. People are buying all your books. And I said, yeah. And I don't know who I am. Doesn't that change all the time, no? When I started going to therapy in 36, I was the same way. I was like, damn, I thought I knew who I was. but I have no idea, but then, like, the older I get.

You evolve. Yeah, you evolve. The more things change in your life, you know, you grow as a father, you grow as a husband, and you just get older, and you just like, man, who am I? And it's normal, and you have to continue to fight to find who you are, and lean into it. And it's actually okay that this is a normal fight and learn how to fight right, as one of the chapters in the book, fight right, because we fight wrong.

We fight wrong. We fight through, you know, substance abuse. we fight other people we fight with unhealthy practices and when you can learn how to fight right and actually say healthy things to yourself and to other people you actually become a gold mind

to you know what I mean and you don't have to have other people to tell you that you're valuable you realize that you really are an incredible person and that God loves you the way you are I think it's incredible I had to see it up close

I thought that was Judge Mathis at first I got Judge Mathis on the cover of him He doesn't look like the judge-knacket. No, yeah. Like, he's trying to find out of the He said. He's going to put judge-knackers down to that. This first chapter,

why we don't believe what God says about us? Yeah, man. What's that about? Well, he loves you. He loves you. And if you can get to the point that he actually loves you, and you're not waiting on you to say it and you to say it and you to say it, then I can emerge from ashes, man.

because I know that he actually loves me. When Jesus gets ready to get baptized by John the Baptist, what happens? He gets baptized and God says this is my beloved son in whom I'm well pleased. That's all he needed to hear. Was his father say, I love him.

I love him. And that validation changed. It validated everything because next thing he does, he goes into the wilderness. And the devil's talking, if you do this, if you do that, he didn't have to do any of that because he was already loved prior to going into what he was getting ready to battle for. So we just got to learn

that, hey, he loves me, like I am, broken, busted, disgusted. That's the foundation of everything. He loves me. And if I can start there, man, you can rise through anything. But it's all about you actually being truthful to yourself and say, you know what?

I'm going to come to you like I am because you actually love me like I am. That'll keep you from having an imposterone. Oh, yeah, yeah. And I think When you embrace that, man, that love, there is an assurance that you have within self, that you're not waiting for something to happen because oftentimes we move with God in a performative way

where if I do good, I can accept his love. And if I do well, I can get someone's blessing. And I think that chapter is good, man, because basically what you're saying, if you did nothing else, beyond just being you, his love is not changing for you. Here's the beauty of it, which is when I made that statement on stage, I went with him on a trip, and we had been going around, I think, two years,

and we went back around to Columbus, Ohio. And so when we go out on stage, we have this, hey, you know, we're going to start this way. We're going to go this way. We're going to segue to this way. Hey, Joe, you take it here. That's kind of how we always hit it. So when it got time for me to tell this particular story, kind of how we always rotate, I stopped dead in the middle of the story.

middle of the story. I said, man, I'm not telling this story no more. And all of the guys was looking like, there's about 800 men in the room. Black men. I'm not telling this story no more. I said, man, I'm sorry. And they, like, J.T. go ahead. He's like, J.T. Go ahead. He's like, J.T. What? Go on and speak. I said, I'm tired of telling this story because I'm having to relive this story every time I tell you this story. And so I decided that moment, I said, I'm going to tell y'all a new story. I said, and it's not a story. And it's not a story. And it's not a that hasn't happened yet. It's the story I want to see. And when I said what I wanted to see, it wasn't a dry eye in the room. Yeah. Because I was going through the opposite of what I was

saying. That's how I end that book. Write a new story. You want to get healthy mentally? Write your story. Create a new narrative. You don't have to keep replaying the same thing that happened to you. And I know it was terrible. And I know it costs. And I know it hurt. But every time you tell it, you feel the cost again, you feel the terror again, you feel the pain again, and it becomes so cyclical. Well, why not write what you want? Why not see what you want to see? And that's what's going to happen when you fight to find yourself, because you control the narrative. And you can be who you want to be.

You can make what you want to make. You can marry who you want to marry. You can do what you want to do. That's the kind of power that you actually possess if you can wake up to it and realize. I'm looking for that right now. That was a real preacher. Go pre-order the fight to find yourself. Moving from Uncertain to Unstoppable right now

to be in bookstores November 4th. This was a powerful conversation to have on World Mental Health Day, man. Yeah, man. And always, brother, I love you, man, to the moon and back, man. And always, man, we've been rocking for the past six or five years we've been doing the Expo, man. You know, I just got to share this, man.

One of his chapses is about our friendship, man. And I would say, get some people in your life, man, just see you like he was coming up here to support me today yeah yeah and our friendship has been on display and so many men are watching uh me just stand with him even in his uh his his situation but just the beauty of man you know this blesses me right this is my dog to see the world get to hear him this morning on the breakfast club you know and to be amongst y'all man so this is just beautiful and this is what mental health really is because when you start to think better, you begin to live better,

and you start to attract better. You know what I mean? Let me say this, please. I came to support him. He's a brother that supports me and everything that I do, and I wanted to be here for him. And I was sitting in there, and then you walk in the room and just say, y'all want to do it together?

And walked off. Didn't he say nothing else. Didn't wait for me to respond or nothing. And I'm like, and then he looked at me and said, you want to do it? I'm like, yeah. He said, come. on and so I'm saying that to say this

you position yourself with good people you said something earlier I don't look for him to give me anything I'm here for him I don't and it's vice versa and because we're friends and we've positioned ourselves to support each other we've opened up a new business together yes I mean mental health practice

congratulations things just have been happening for us so I don't take it lightly thank you for the opportunity to come sharing your space and it's a blessing man, thank you. Thank you very much. You can see Dr. J. He'll be at the Mental Welfth Expo tomorrow in Newark, New Jersey, at the Joel and Diane

Bloom Wellness and Events Center. I wish Dr. Tubman was there too, man. No, he got to preach. I got to preach. He got to preach. It's live stream. I don't know if they're streaming or not. I know it's a conference in Carolina for Bishop Michael Blue tomorrow night. Where at? Somewhere in South Carolina. I think Columbia, South Carolina. That's correct.

Is that right? Yeah, Columbia, South Carolina. I'll be with him tomorrow night. What time is your Expo? 11 to 4 on Saturday. Yeah. I have to do a wellness event in Florida, which will be mental health and physical fitness and everything else that you can imagine.

Please go to Florida. They need all the wellness. Jess, y'all be reporting every day. Somebody's in Florida, man. Those people are different, bro. I'm Floridian now. Come on, now. Back up up of us.

Come on, back up off of us. But, you know, the work not just this weekend. I mean, this work is continuing. Yes, sir. I do want to ask about the brain love merch, though. Yeah, so this is my good brother, Archie, man, down in Atlanta, Georgia. This brand is in Bloomingdale's In Atlanta Brain Love. He created this around mental health and getting a healthy brain

and the work that he's doing, me and him partner to come together. And this collection is in Bloomingdale. I mean, y'all see the material. I love it. And so he's also told me, I spoke to him, he's also going to send everybody here gear so you guys are rock so yeah and uh the materials is amazing and really his his message is really to get us a healthier brain yeah and then you see the message on the back you know telling you know to tell ourselves that we love ourselves and for black people listen man our mental health is

everything and particularly in this time politically and and in this time that we're in that so much is attacking us take care of your mind yeah be careful of what you consume too much consumption of negativity with the news. I mean, every day it's something with this clown. You know, y'all know what the clown we're talking about. But, man, that, because this crash-out era that we're seeing right now is just overwhelming. People are just losing it.

So encourage everybody, man. Keep your brain healthy. Yeah. That's right. It's Dr. J. Barnett. It's Dr. Joel Tubman. Thank you, brothers, man. Thank you, sir.

Appreciate you. It's the breakfast club. The murder of an 18-year-old girl in Graves County, Kentucky, went unsolved for years until a local housewife, a journalist, and a handful of girls came forward with a story. America, y'all better work the hell up. Bad things happens to good people in small towns. Listen to Graves County on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And to binge the entire season ad-free, subscribe to Lava for Good Plus on Apple Podcasts. I'm Jonathan Goldstein, and on the new season of heavyweight. And so I pointed the gun at him and said this isn't a joke.

A man who robbed a bank when he was 14 years old. And a centenarian rediscovers a love lost 80 years ago. How can a 101-year-old woman fall in love again? Listen to heavyweight on the I-Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, I'm Jay Shetty, host of the On Purpose podcast. I had the incredible opportunity to sit down with the one, the only, Cardi B. My marriage, I felt the love dying. I was crying every day.

I felt in the deepest depression that I had ever had. This shit was not given to me. I worked my ass off for me. Listen to On Purpose with Jay Shetty on the Iheart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Introducing IVF disrupted, The Kind Body Story, a podcast about a company that promised to revolutionize fertility care. It grew like a text. Startup. While Kind Body did help women start families, it also left behind a stream of disillusioned and angry patience. You think you're finally, like, in the right hands. You're just not.

Listen to IvyF Disrupted, the Kind Body Story, on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is an IHeart podcast.