The Breakfast Club - INTERVIEW: Eboni K. Williams Defends Her Comments On Black Women's Market Value, Fertility Challenges + More

Episode Date: September 29, 2023

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Good morning, Char. What's up, Ms. Warren? Hi, how are you? Good morning. Good morning. Envy, I was going to be very, very pissed and disappointed if you weren't Skyping in. Why? Because I didn't know if I'd ever be back up here, to be candid. If you don't stop. No, I really don't. Why? It was tight last time. You think so? Yeah, but God is good. I came with my Godly own. You don't think so? Godly on. We good. God is good. I will say this. Every time we have a conversation, we're always not going to agree, but you're always invited up here regardless.

I mean, we're not going to agree on everything, but the best thing about us is just having a conversation. So never think that you can't come up here for something you say. No, that's what these conversations and these platforms are about. I'm half playing, but it's a good point. And it's worth saying out loud. So I appreciate that. And I love you, sister.

I don't want you to think I don't love you. I love you for real. I appreciate everything that you do. I don't love you. I love you, for real. I appreciate everything that you do. Absolutely. And it's just like anything else. You go hardest in the paint with your fam. Yes, in the paint. As in the paint that's on your face.

Shut up, Charlamagne. Well, I'm happy you're here. Thank you, Lauren. I said yesterday I would love to have a conversation with you about the video. Now, what's the topic of conversation? I feel like this is a conversation that men shouldn't even be involved in. I agree. But what is the gist of the conversation? It's not for you, Charlamagne. So I'm glad that you said that.

This is a conversation for ladies. And I texted my good friend Charlamagne. I said, as a friend to the show, I heard the conversation yesterday. I appreciated the critique and the constructive nature of it. And I said, you know, since I'm down the street on the train, let me pull up. And I want to hear from you, Lauren, about what you agree with and what you disagree with and have a ladies conversation about it. Let's do it. Yeah. So I think for me, I'll start with what I disagree with. Well, Kim, first for people that don't know, you want to play the clip of what went viral so people understand that.

The reality is that our marriage and partnership market value is depreciating with every passing year. No matter how good we look, no matter how fit we are, men are still seeing primarily our presumed dwindling fertility as a knock against us. So here's my advice. black woman in college and you know in your heart and in your head that you want to prioritize family I suggest that you simultaneously pursue that MRS degree right along with that BA or JD because the handful of black college-age men that actually do desire to get married soon and they do share that value system and family is a priority for them too y'all that is an incredibly small pool and it's shrinking as you

get older. And by the time you reach my age, 40, you will be faced with different choices relating to life partnership and motherhood. So I think, um, all right. So breaking it down into what I agree and what I disagree with. So the disagreeing for me came with the starting with the infertility and the market value appreciating. So with the infertility, I know I said this yesterday. Some stuff is science, right? You can't get around that. But I feel like when you start with that and you lead with that, it then makes people get defensive and they don't even hear the rest of it. I know when I first listened to it, I was like, oh, God, this is going to be another one of those conversations where like someone's telling me as a woman, by the time you get this age, your life is over.

And you know, when you're, when you're like trying to figure things out and you're like, I'm 31 years old, right? Like I'm recently out of a very long relationship. You want to feel, not I heard, who told you, Charlamagne? He always did my big thing. Jesus Christ. Charlamagne told me, Laura, this, you know, don't worry, there's life business. Jesus Christ. Shelly Bates told me, Lauren, don't worry, there's life after. Go ahead, sis. But that's my point. For me, I made a very conscious decision

with a lot of things in my life. Going to college, being in the relationship that I was in, not being in that relationship, even with my recent back and forth to East Coast, West Coast, I've always had to be very conscious and cognizant of the fact that like, you know, as a woman, as a black woman, right. Especially working in the space that I work in,

I might not get that other chance. Like I got to do it right the first time. And I think about professionally, professionally and personally. Okay. And only because that's what are your personal goals? Just so we're clear. Do you want marriage? I want marriage.

I want children. Yes. Family foundation foundation i want all of that great um i don't even have a number of kids once we start we start i just want to get in the minutiae of that but yeah but yes i want yes i would okay i'm going to be an amazing mom but i just feel like when you lead with the stuff that you lead with it instantly turns the conversation negative and for someone like me who is watching and learning and listening to you, it makes it where now I am defensive. I don't want to watch, listen and learn. I don't hear the rest of what you're saying. So now I'm not being taught and I should feel like I can listen to you and learn from you and not feel like you're the op, right? And that's how it starts off when you instantly are telling me everything negative about what I already am facing every single day.

And I think that that's a big part of it, too, is like when you put certain truths in front of people, it hurts. People don't want to hear it. But beyond that, like you can't get around the infertility. The second thing was the market value. Right. I don't agree. I don't know where you were at 31.

But for me, I feel like I'm just now getting to the space where like the people that I'm able to or not even able to, but the people that I'm dating, the life experiences that I'm experiencing that are teaching me what I want, what I don't want. I'm right now in the best space that I've ever been in. And that wasn't me in college. I didn't know what I wanted in college. I didn't know who I was in college. I seen nothing, haven't done anything. I also I didn't agree with that. But go ahead. Yeah, let's just because you put two big ones out and let's break them down before we get ahead of ourselves. OK, so you're 31 years old, a college educated woman enjoying a very successful career in a high profile space.

I'm going to put my hands together for all of that. Now, when I say market value depreciating, Lauren, did you hear what I said before that? Did you hear the specificity of the particular marketplace I'm speaking about? No. Which was that? OK, so I want to just go back actually to your first point, Lauren, which I think you are conceding that you had a reaction to my commentary that was so visceral in nature that you actually shut down your listening comprehension skills. You said that. Okay. So because of that, though, right, I'm not going to sit in a posture of ownership because you made a choice to be limited in the way in which you received and processed the information.

Now, you are a grown woman, and you have autonomy over what you choose to consume and what you choose to not consume. So when I was giving the advice, the strategy, the game, putting, you know, certain people up on some game, I'm talking to a very limited pool of young black ladies, the ones that are currently in school or immediately following school or graduate school. And then the other caveat, I'll say the other place this information is in real time relevant to are the mothers or even the fathers of those young women. That's who this is for. So you finish your thought i just want to like let's

rewind a little bit because i also think too the reason why people also because not just me or the people because even the people it's meant for i'm sure some of them did the same exact thing as well too right not right and some did not because i'm not right right because you read all the comments right yeah i did so what i think what i think happens is with you and i i just saying this in the most respectful way i think that the way that you approach things like even this conversation right now it can make it does that. It dilutes

the whole point of like you're talking to me specifically You agreed with Ebony though. I agree with certain parts of it but I think that my whole point of what I'm saying right because right now I feel like you're taking what I didn't agree with and the fact that I don't remember specific words or whatever you said. No I'm saying, right? Because right now I feel like you're taking what I didn't agree with and the fact that I don't remember specific words or whatever you said.

No, I'm not, Lauren, really. I really think this would be better served and more productive. If just like I, it's kind of like an opening statement in a court of law. I gave you a good amount of time to lay out two prongs of disagreement. And I respect and appreciate both of your positions. I'm not saying they are wrong. Look at Andy Messi. I'm not saying they're wrong at all, but I am saying that I don't know how productive it is to be the time, manner and delivery police. Right. So when we talk about

and also the nature of this work that we all do in this space of media and journalism, whatever we want to call it, right? It's very subjective in nature. So for everybody, Lauren, that takes your position, which is very valid, it was visceral to me. I found it triggering. It felt hurtful. I felt attacked. I felt policed. I felt shitted on, whatever it is.

There's also a whole nother contingency of black women that felt seen by that commentary that fell heard i had sores coming up to me we had a fundraiser uh shout out to the pi kappa omega chapter of alpha kappa alpha sorority incorporated ski we uh we had a fundraiser that very night that that commentary dropped and i had sores coming up to me who are more in my age group right because that's that's the first thing we need to acknowledge lauren and i are not the same age. There's a good 10 years between me and this lovely young lady. So I'm speaking from a purview of experience that looks a bit different, not vastly so, but a bit different. I agree. And my peers who are 40 and up are like, I wish someone would have told me. And the fact that you are doing the labor, Ebony, you are doing the service of letting young girls that are currently in position to put themselves in best practices because they are currently in school or graduate school or shortly thereafter matters.

And it's good that somebody is rolling up their sleeves and doing the work and having the conversation publicly, that quiet as kept, many pockets of black elite culture are having with their children generationally every day. Many of my peers, Lauren, when I went to UNC Chapel Hill, who were black just like me and you, right? They were taught going into the front end of freshman year, keep your eyes open, you know, get those grades, get that degree. I expect you to go to medical school or law school or Ph.D. And also, if you want the traditional model and that's a big if this is going to be the best time to be surrounded by the highest concentration of black men that are also pursuing the educational and fiscal model that you are and you desire.

And it's really no more or less than that. I don't disagree with that second part of it. Hold on one second, guys. Hold on one second, ladies. We got to take a break. So we'll come back and we also want to take some calls. 800-585-1051. And if you're just joining us, that's Lauren LaRosa. She's our special guest host today. And Ebony K. Williams is up here. And I think

it's very important when we come back, let's talk about what we agree with in this statement. Yeah, I want to get into that too because I don't want you to feel like because what... Oh, we do when we come back, let's talk about what we agree with in this statement. Yeah, I want to get into that too, because I don't want you to feel like, because what- Are we doing it when we come back on? Yeah, okay. We're doing it when we come back. Yeah, okay.

All right, it's The Breakfast Club. Good morning. So now, right before we left, I cut both you guys off so we can pay some bills and get some music on. So I know everybody, Kay Williams, you were talking. I was. So I was acknowledging Lauren's right.

Right. To consume content that she enjoys and feels comfortable with and also reject that, which she doesn't. Because her critique at this point, I understand is it's a bit about my it's about my delivery as much as the substance of what I'm saying. And I was asking you about the last time you had a conversation with a man about what he values in women, because I want to be very clear, Lauren, because you make a really good point that I think was misconstrued by a few. I am in no way saying that the market value on life of black women is depreciating as we age, as we get more educated, as we get more fiscally fit, as we buy properties, as we build in our careers. Our market value in life, Lauren, is ascending beyond the greatest heights of God. But I'm talking about the dating market. I'm talking about how men are perceiving us

in terms of marketplace value for their partnership desires. So let's have that conversation, if you don't mind. What do you think most hetero, we're just going to kind of focus on black men and black women for the sake of this conversation for this moment what do you think most hetero educated black men are looking for in a woman partner come on lauren kevin samuels prepared you for this stop let the day rest in peace charlamagne you're right i think age does come into it i think that they're looking younger. I think that they want someone who is like very supportive across

all like across the board like my man is my king type of thing. How about availability? Availability is also a thing as well too. I also think that especially when you start talking about like men who are like planning for like family and things of that nature. Sure. They definitely want somebody that is going to be when you talk about

availability be able to really tend to family, to like all of that stuff. Like I think that that is very important. I don't necessarily think that the men that I've had conversations with recently are upfront and honest about that. I said, they're lying. I'm so sorry.

I'm glad we're already on the same page. Yeah, not at all. Let's just make a pause on that though, just for the sake of not, we understand that, but let's kind of expand that. what lauren is saying and it's very important is that oftentimes men like to be the good guy right can we just acknowledge that men for despite their behaviors and choices and the way they oftentimes show up in the world you know

it's like a man will keep a girlfriend have 15 million side chicks because why he don't want to be the bad guy and break up with his girlfriend. That's the kind of stuff men tend to do. Right? And I can, spoiler alert, it does not get better as they age. Anyway, so I believe that men mean well when they say they're looking for their Michelle Obama. When they say they're looking for the Beyonce to their Jay-Z. But they're lying. Would you agree they can't handle that ego-wise as well?

I'm not going to go in that direction. What I am going to say is what they prioritize are the things you just laid out. They want a woman who is accommodating to them. They want a woman who, especially more successful men, they want a woman that when they say, hey, yo, I'm going

to the south of France for two weeks. Pack your bag. Let's go. Let me tell you what they don't want to hear, hey, yo, I'm going to the south of France for two weeks. Pack your bag. Let's go. Let me tell you what they don't want to hear, Lauren. Oh, I got to go to L.A. to shoot Judge Ebony for three days. Oh, I got to go be at a conference in Florida for black women attorneys gathering. Oh, I got to go to a sorority thing. It's not like based on a true story. It's all based on true story. I wouldn't lie.

Charlamagne, shut up. Let these women talk, please. No, no, no. But I'm glad he said that because when you said that, I'm like, damn. This is my lived experience. You got some background, like personally. Yeah, there's a vulnerability in this conversation that I really want people to feel right now. Because. And in your. Yeah.

Just pointing out the delivery point that I was trying to make earlier. In your delivery. And I know content, right? And I understand what you do. You're really good at what you do content wise you it always causes these things I don't not look like it I know it's great um but I think jokes I think for me like when I say that I disagree with those things that we talked about what I wanted to make clear earlier was and I think we kind of got to this me disagreeing doesn't mean that what you're saying to me is just like oh

this is bs oh this isn't true like because what just said, it goes to a lot of the points that you made. I think that the disagreement, again, comes in with how you say it, and we don't get that vulnerability, right? So me sitting here with you right now is like, this is what I want to feel when I see the content. I might not always get that, though. And maybe it's not, like you said, it wasn't for me. It was for the girls that are still in college, right? But at the same time, it's placed on my timeline, so I get it, and I feel it, and I stop, I stop and I listen either way but I'm glad you do shout out to the team at the griot go ahead but but I was gonna get to that but what I did agree with was

the fact like when you started talking about the pool of men getting smaller when it comes to those men to men who will be honest about what they want when it comes to the family a woman they are actually worth the time the energy it's it's consistent you're getting the same energy that you're putting out it does get smaller as you get older and like now that i'm out here in the dating world i'm like oh okay keep in mind you're only 30 right 31 so it's like as you get to 40 that that the the pool has shrunk further 50 even more so and i've dated i'm gonna have a man before i'm 50 i'm gonna have a man and listen i'm not even i got i got i actually believe in the power of the tongue

so i believe so you speak so you you have and you will desire i do want to speak to the fertility part because it's very important it is um as i sit here with y'all today uh you know i'm literally on some fertility drugs i am preparing for my embryo transfer in the next few weeks now i am 40 years old just turned 40 a couple of weeks ago y'all know i've been very transparent about my motherhood journey i'm doing it solo by choice y'all know i froze eggs at 34 years old i'm doing this i'm excited to be a mom uh i'm scared as hell i know it's going to be the hardest thing i've ever done in my life and yet i cannot wait to enter this this this mother era of my life and, Lauren, I don't think this is how most

black women want to do it. Why? I was going to say, why solo by choice? Well, several reasons. Number one, I'm no longer willing to wait to activate my pursuit of motherhood. I'm no longer willing to wait. I've been married and divorced in my late 20s. I had also a long-term relationship many years ago. I ended an engagement during the pandemic. I'm ready for my baby. I am ready to build my legacy in this way. I am ready to pour into someone other than me, finally. It took me a very long time to get here, but when she ready, she ready. Now, I don't think that most women, most black women desire doing this journey alone.

I don't. It's very important. And I know that you mentioned yesterday the egg freezing. So let's talk about that. Yeah, because I think that that is marketed. Not just you, Lauren. I think in general that is in a lot of these comments. Right. Well, girl, just freeze your eggs and don't worry about the rest. That's some bullshit because I'm here to tell you because I'm living it, right? I froze eggs at 34. I never thought in a million years I would need to use them, right? Because why? I was in a loving, committed relationship. These were my spare. Have you frozen eggs at this point, too?

No, I thought about doing it last year. I thought about starting the process. Okay, so let me just, and this is not investigative not investigative this is i'm just trying to see something here do you know how many eggs on average a woman should have on ice on reserve frozen for a probability of one live birth no i don't about 20 then if i say okay how many egg retrievals are required to get about 20 eggs and a woman that's say 35 and up the answer is at least two what's the cost average of an egg retrieval emmy probably knows this but he knows it's between 12 and 15 000 per retrieval cycle that most assurances don't cover most assurances do not cover unless you're working at google or amazon and by the way you probably need to be married for them to cover it. Otherwise, they consider

it elective. They don't recognize it as infertility in the way that married couples that struggle to conceive have. So what I'm saying is the egg freezing route, the single motherhood by choice route, the IVF route are amazing technological tools, Lauren, but they are wealthy women tools.

Period. Let's be very clear. That is a rich woman option. If you are, and nobody's more important to me in our society than our educators, right? So let's say I'm talking to my soul, who's a teacher in Memphis, Tennessee, who's probably on average making 65 to $75,000 a year doing most, some of the most incredible work of our community. Where's that sister getting $30,000 for two retrievals or even $15,000 for one? And that's before I've done a transfer. That's before I've had a failed transfer and having to do another one, which Envy has

experienced. And thank God they had a healthy baby subsequent that naturally. But you see what I'm saying? It's just more to it than just freezing eggs. I get you. I think with that part, for me, I was speaking from my own personal experience. And I think that hearing you respond to it, I can understand your response to what I said but I think maybe I should have been a little bit more clear because for me at that still freedom though

by the way because you have money at that time when I was thinking about doing it it was because the insurance that I was getting through my employer supported that to a certain extent where anything like yes it is expensive but I would have been able to figure it out. I think you should still do it. I want that to, I don't want that missed here. I'm still encouraging you to do it. I will say I got a little bit,

I got like scared out of it a little bit. Only because of, Fear is not of God. Don't do that. But more so because of what, like Envy shared with me, what you talked about,

like going through all of that and then it, I'll go with you. To not work, right? I'll go with you. We can talk about it. I'm very serious. I really really so I'm saying two things here and this is important in this conversation y'all people have got I encourage people I'll say to hold space for more than one thing at one time yeah I am saying and that was my that was my reasoning right because well first

let me get back to one thing so then you talked about the people with the resources who are able or not able to do it because of financial reasons right right and when i heard you say the women in college because another issue that that that i agreed with but people some people were like uh about was because i think what were they like lauren uh right the headlines didn't help right because what the headlines are saying is like ebony k williams is saying while you're in college you also should be trying to get a ring tour like people if you there's a big if which you acknowledge pointed that out because that that that matters right if that is one of your primary goals if you choose that but this is but i think when you said that with the women in college i thought about me and my friends in college right while we're in college we don't have the money to

do that but when we graduated we all became very successful in our careers financially doing well we had that resource because we were black women who took the time to get our education and then apply it to what we wanted in life. So I instantly put those women in that category. So I didn't even think about the people who weren't financially able because I thought that the people that you were speaking to,

back to your point of who you were talking to, were women that one day would be able to do it. And the reason why I was like, that's not what I wanted to hear was because I felt like how I've been spoken to is like people will tell you not to do things right because they will say okay well it's going to be financially hard or where will you get the resources and it's like why can't I afford to do it like yeah but you understand clearly if you've I'm not sure for how familiar you are with my content Lauren but

the folks here in this room there are everything I talk about is about prosperity and living a first-class American wealthy existence for black folks period I know that you do that but what what I when I hear that and I and I know how people will take it and in the conversation will run some people will take it in the conversation will run they may not know that and they may not present it that way so now to me I said I feel like I put a dark cloud because now you're like okay these women are in college and then most of the I know I'm a black woman so when I'm hearing that I'm instantly like okay people are going to use this to be like the black women who graduate with the degrees they don't have those options because of a b c and d number one being finances right and that's not a conversation

that I don't want no no so I think that's so interesting that that's the way you heard it I believe that's the way you heard it but I think that there are also people that hear it the complete opposite way Lorna we have to make the space for that I hear you way you heard it. I believe that's the way you heard it. But I think that there are also people that hear it the complete opposite way, Lorna. We have to make the space for that. I hear you saying you heard my commentary in general and you heard a woman advocating for a glass being half full. They're, excuse me, half empty rather.

And then there are those that heard what I was saying. It was like, shit, that's some great perspective. I wish someone would have told me when I was positioned to do something about it. I am certainly going to advance this piece of advice and commentary to my children or the kids in my church or the kids in my, you know, Jack and Jill

chapters or whatever in the world, and making sure that they have this piece of knowledge or optionality that I'd never had because no one ever told me, and they're seeing it as the glass half full and I love that for them but do you feel like the blogs and a lot of people that reported on it picked it up that way I think the LA Times did no but and I feel like what Ebony just said

now is very important all Ebony is saying is this isn't ideal and you don't want it's not you don't want folks to have to necessarily go through this for me let me just reiterate that because that's very important because this is this is these these stakes are very high, Lauren. I'm $50,000 into an IVF journey by myself. So I don't have a husband splitting that with me, which there's reasons why that's preferable for me. But I really need people to hear that. And I'm taking shots and I'm giving them to myself

and I'm doing all this to bring life into this world. And I don't take it lightly because it's a very serious thing. So I think when we were very cavalier not not just you right but in general with oh just ivf or oh just marry outside the race obviously been there done that too well i heard some snow no king commentary hold up hold up guys hold up guys we gotta take some calls yeah we gotta take some calls we gotta take some calls 800-585-1051 if you watch if you listen okay let's go we gotta take some calls when we come back i just want to say this i just want to say this most people don't

know what what ebony's going through right now with the with the in vitro fertility no because no because most people haven't been through it and the fact that the fact that she has to do it by herself is a lot like she has to put them shots in her stomach and and all that by herself thank you and most people don't know it like i can't even imagine if my wife had to do it by herself or a woman having to do it by herself and go to those doctor's appointments so it is a lot room by yourself it's a lot i can't imagine that and the transfer we'll talk some we'll take some calls when we come back we gotta talk about the stuff that we agreed with too because a lot of people agree with some things that you said we ain't got all that much time guys 800-585-1051 let's's go. It's the Breakfast Club. Good morning.

Morning, everybody. It's DJ Envy, Charlamagne Tha Guy. We are the Breakfast Club. Our special guest host, Lauren LaRosa, is here. And Ebony K. Williams is still here. We're having a grown-up discussion this morning. And we're opening up the phone lines. We're going to let you guys out there get a chance to chop it up with Ebony K. Williams.

All right? 800-585-1051. And we just want to say it's a respectful conversation. So as soon as the disrespect happens, we're banging on you. That's right. No bus drivers. Okay, bus driver gate has happened. We're on to something else now. You stop it, Charlamagne. Hello, who's this?

Good morning, Chris. Hey, Chris. I don't even think we should be talking to guys. I don't want to hear from any men. I don't think we should be talking to no men about this. This is not a conversation for men to co-op and celebrate their mediocrity. I agree. Jesus.

Back to the bigotry of low expectations for you, boy. I teed it up right for you, Charloé. Thank you. No, because that co-op is happening. Don't think I don't see it in the comments. I can't wait to use that in an argument. You just co-oping your mediocrity. You don't know what that man identified as, but all right, let's go to another caller.

Hello, who's this? Y'all didn't know what he identified as. Hello? Alicia. Hey, Alicia. Good morning. Hey, how are you? Good, good, good.

Ebony K. Williams is here. You got a question, comment? Let's discuss. Oh, well, I just kind of wanted to agree with her. First of all, she stated that if this is what you want in your life, this is what I suggest. So she was not pushing that on anyone. But if we're being honest, that's what our counterparts teach their girls. Go to college and find a husband.

Education is almost secondary to especially white Southern women. So I don't see a problem with it. Is that true? Thank you, sis. It absolutely is true. So, you know, I went to UNC Chapel Hill, a very predominantly white institution in the South, as the good sis just mentioned. And that ring before spring shit is serious for them. And it's twofold what they're looking to do, because our counterparts tend to view marriage primarily

through a lens of economic stability. Let's be clear. And historically, we know that is the nature of marriage. The contract. Correct. It's a transaction of sorts. And I know, once again, you know, the tears are going to roll when I say that out loud for some. I don't know why.

Because they are not willing to really stand in the reality of the tenets of marriage in America today. Love don't pay mortgage. Right. So that's that's the reality. And our counterparts do it all the time. The difference is they are not shamed when they do it. I think that when you see black girls and black young women going and making the space for marriage as as much of a priority as education, it flies in the face of a generation that told me and mine go to school stay focused don't get pregnant boys are a distraction right they're going to throw you off your game get your education get your money get your house get your power

figure out who you are stand in it and then go partner get married and live happily ever after the challenge with that because that's the model I took. I'm proud to have taken it. I had a little default start in marriage that was not for me. So I divorced him. Not a problem. Great guy. Here's the thing.

Here's the thing is most black women do want the traditional marital nuclear family model. And when you get to a certain level of income as black women, a certain level of power, a certain level of being able to travel the world on your own dime and be in the sky lounge without some dusty sun swipe. That shrinking happens. The shrinking happens. And also let me tell you what else you move differences.

You move, you, you, you think your swag is on a thousand today and it's very high. And I love seeing it. Wait till you wait till you're over that million dollar a year mark of income. Wait till it's like, wait till you own

your $1.7 million property in your own name and only your name is on the deed. Based on a true story. I'm just saying nobody's going to be able to tell you shit unless they're coming all the way correct. And that's going to make that pool rather even smaller.

Go ahead, Amy. Let's take some more calls here. Yeah, sorry. Hello, who's this? Hello, good morning. Who's this? Hey, what's your name? Sophia.

Hey, Sophia. What's your question for Ebony K. Williams? Not question. Well, I guess a question. I have a few things. Like, how were you raised? I was saying, I've seen that you were 40. I'm 48. I'm a few things like how are you raised? I was saying I think that you are 40. I'm 48.

I'm a black woman raised with black women. We were not raised to go look for a man. We were not raised to. It doesn't matter. Like we wasn't raised to just go look for a ring. Oh, my God, I just have to have a man. We were raised to respect ourselves to love God and if God saw fit for us to be married our husband would find us like it's like you putting

your your failures or how that you seem like you failed because you didn't get a ring in college but you putting it off on other women, especially black women, when that's not how black women, I don't know any other race, but that's not how I was raised. Okay, let Ebony respond. Yeah, good morning, assist. So listen, I was raised by a God fearing incredible black woman named Gloria, who raised me to go to school, go to more school, get the bag and stand in my truth and power. So that's the first answer to your question.

As for failure, I don't have any in the space, dear. I actually was married. I had a beautiful cushion cut diamond on my finger until I decided to give it back because I no longer wanted to be married. So I don't have failure in the space. The only reason I'm not married is because I divorced my husband. Now, as to putting this on black women, I'm doing no such thing. What I know for a fact, because I have sorority sisters, I have good women, I'm doing no such thing. What I know for fact, because I have

sorority sisters, I have good friends. I have a strong global sisterhood of black women who tell me some of them tell me that despite their success, despite their careers and despite their money, they in their car to hearts still desire marriage. It is something that they want. And I think we got to get rid of shaming black women for wanting what they want. I'll give you this as a handbag example. Some people like Birkin bags. If Lauren comes and tells me, Ebony, I want to get a Birkin bag.

Let me tell you what I'm not going to do. I'm not going to try to convince her to get another kind of bag. I'm not going to say, girl, have you seen the Chanel's? What about the Louis Vuitton's? I'm not going to talk to you about how Hermes bags are priced out of range and they should be more accessible to people. No, I'm going to talk to you about how to get the money situation together so we can walk in Hermes right there on Madison and make your dream a reality.

And that's all I'm doing for the black women that that is already a desire of their heart to be married in a timely fashion, that's who this advice is for. If you don't want that, I want nothing but what you want for yourself. Is the caller still on the line? No. If you don't want that, go get the Michael Kors. I will say though, I think

a lot of people take the stance that she took because you literally, like a lot of people don't know certain things. Right. They don't listen. But I also think that. Say that part one more time. They don't know certain things and they don't listen. But wait, another important point is I think a lot of people take you just as a personality and all that you have going on as like you look and speak down on people. And I think with black women is instantly triggering because we've had that happen so much. Right. And that's why that

happens where she's like well how were you raised like even the way that she came into that call was like you think that you're better or you think that you're right doing something that other people have not done right and I think that happens a lot with you yeah it's a projection yeah so I'm 40 right so none of that's new Lauren just so you know like when you walk through the world carrying yourself the way I do having my aesthetic projections and presumptions about who I am and what my values are come with the territory but that's also why I do the work I do I got 100 episodes of holding court people can watch I'm on every day here locally in New York channel 55 11 30 a.m equal justice with judge Ebony yes I'm judging you

uh and several other things I got two books out, including... I saw it in Vegas this weekend, by the way. What'd you say, baby? I saw Equal Justice in Vegas this weekend. You saw it? Yeah, it's nationally syndicated. I'm in 85% of American homes. So there's lots of content to consume. Well, let's go to another caller,

and I just want to put out there, Ebony K. Williams is talking that talk. She has a gold 35 Birkin bag. Thank you, baby. Looked like gold hardware. You're correct. Yellow gold. Thank you, Envy.

Spoken like a true man of Hermes. Y'all rich. Boy, y oh y'all rich i said my husband better be able to spot the bag like that hello hello hey what's your name hi my name is tish i'm calling from houston hey tish what's your question for abony K. Williams? It's not really a question. I'm just saying, well, first of all, good morning to everybody. I just want to say that I am Team Ebony, and I don't see anything that she's saying is wrong. She's letting her platform, everyone who follows her, know that as an author woman, I'm just giving you advice. I've been there. I've been through college and this is my feelings based on my experiences

and I just feel like she should be respected for it. Okay. Well, thank you for calling, Mama. Appreciate it, sis. Thank you so much. Have a good day. So let's put a button on this, man.

Yeah, let's wrap this up. I think this was very informative and very, very, very educational. And I would like to say Ebony K. Williams is not Kevin Samuels with a silk press. Not at all. We're not championing mediocrity. She's Ebony K. Williams. And I believe if we listen with the intent to understand and not

reply, you would learn something. I appreciate the platform. I appreciate the conversation, Lauren. I do too. I think that as black women in particular, we got to hold the space uh to have the difficult conversations i saw a lot of people to chat are we still talking about this are we over this clearly people feel a way about the topic and i think it's also good for people to see that like now i know you a bit differently so i probably will see things

differently but i probably will still disagree with some things and it's okay and it's totally fine that's a lifestyle yeah but i'm just saying that because i think another thing too that i don't want to happen from this is people to take the points where we didn't disagree or where you were strong or i was strong or vice versa and be like it's combative it's not it's they're gonna do that anyway though yeah but i but i want to put it on record that that is that can happen and then at the end it is we're gonna talk because i do want to know more about the fertility thing i do want to talk to you about it i do want you know what i mean like that's important to put out there for me. I appreciate that. I just think that the moral of the story is

people are going to eat the meat and spit out the seeds. Excuse me. They're going to eat... You know what? Somebody nasty. Somebody nasty in here. Because somebody got a good diet. You're going to eat the meat and spit out the seeds as we do with watermelon. Get your heads out of the gutter.

As we do with watermelon. What is wrong with of the gutter. As we do with watermelon. What is wrong with you people? I've been in this room all week. Who raised y'all? No, I'm thinking flesh. I'm sorry. Who raised y'all? I'm just playing. And that goes with this conversation.

That goes whether we're talking about bus driving, Gabe, whether we're talking about black men in school, whether we're talking about wealth or anything else. So the content is for the taking. I welcome the critique and the conversation. All right. Well, we appreciate you I welcome the critique and the conversation. All right. Well, we appreciate you joining us and having a great conversation. And make sure you subscribe to the Holden Court Podcast. Yeah, we're back with season three soon.

Thank you. Charlamagne, did I keep the same energy? The energy was needed. I don't know, man. You shrunk a little bit. No. Hold on. You love to come for me.

You love it. I don't know why I asked you. I don't even know why I asked you. I don't even know why I asked you. I don't even know why you asked me either, girl. Mercy. Hold on. Make sure you watch Equal Justice, too. Thank you.

That's right. Thank you. Check your local listings. Yes. Syndicated. When we come back, Nyla will be joining us past the arc, so don't go anywhere. It's a Friday. Thank you, ladies.

It's The Breakfast Club. Come on. Hilarious. Wake that ass up. Early in the morning. The Breakfast Club.