The Breakfast Club - INTERVIEW: Ellen Sellers, Ione Jamison & Melissa Butler Talk Target Boycott; DEI Rollback, 'Buycott' + More

Episode Date: February 14, 2025

The Breakfast Club Dives Sits down With Ellen Sellers, Ione Jamison & Melissa Butler To Discuss Target Boycott; DEI Rollback, 'Buycott.' Listen For More!See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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Listen to My Legacy on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is My Legacy. Wake that ass up in the morning. The Breakfast Club. Morning, everybody. WAKE THAT ASS UP! The Breakfast Club! Morning everybody! It's DJ Envy, Jess Hilarious, Charlamagne the Guy, we are The Breakfast Club. Lauren LaRosa filling in for Jess, and we got some special guests with us this morning. We have the founder and CEO of Lipbalm, Melissa Butler, welcome.

And we also have co-founders of Rucka Roots, Dr. Ellen Rucka-Cellis, and Ione Rucka-Jamieson. Welcome! Good morning! Thank you! Thank you for having us. Thank you so much for having us. No, you know, the reason we wanted you here today is because there's all this conversation about Target

and should folks boycott Target because they rolled back their DEI policies, but then there are people who say we should be doing a buyout and supporting all the Black-owned products in Target, and you all have Black-owned products in Target and you all have black-owned products in Target. So we wanted to hear from you all. Well, thank you. Absolutely. Thank you.

Thank you for this opportunity. Thank you for this platform. Talk to Mike, talk to Mike. Thank you for this opportunity. Thank you for this platform. You know, I think it's very important for brand owners to have a voice in this because every day we are in there grinding.

We have worked so hard to get on the shelf. The shelf space is a covenant space, right? Everybody didn't get the opportunity. And and for a brand to get to shelf space is a huge like a process. Like it takes years. It takes years. It really does. And to stay there, it's so it's so hard to. And so I'm so glad that you gave us this platform because we need our community.

We need our community to, you know, galvanize around these black brands because we're fighting the good fight to. Right. So let's take a back. Let's take a back. Let's go. Let's go to the problem. Let's start with you. You speak and let's talk about Rucker Roots, what Rucker Roots is. And talk about the process of selling your product because most people don't know they don't understand like you said They automatically think you have a product you put it in Walmart and you're good No, they understand that you know It goes from one store and then a region and then from notes with store

So break it down to what Rucka roots is how it started and how you so for Rucka roots We are an all-natural hair care company I own and I started it in 2015 with the goal of being a household brand, right? And so we started it in professional salons. So we gave products to stylists and let them use the product. We had a distributor. Then we went to trade shows, which we met Melissa at several trade shows, trying to get your product out there so you're in front of the consumer.

And once you get the notoriety or once you get enough recognition amongst some of these retailers, they come to you and say, hey, let's talk about coming into retail. And so our first retailer was Sally's Beauty and then Target, and after you get one you get more But you know in order to stay in those retail stores you get audited basically every year

You have a line review if you're not performing guess what your space is gone and so When we look at the boycott, I'm not telling people not to boycott. Like that's not in my spirit. That's not where I come from. You know, I mean, boycotting is part of, you know, our bloodline, right? What I am telling people is you can't forget these black brands that have worked so hard to get there.

Cause it's a long process. And see, that's why I think a buyout is good because of what you said, if, you know, these products are sitting on the self and target and nobody goes in there and buys them And what that gives them a reason just say you know what get this stuff out of here anyway, and and Honestly, isn't that the goal? Isn't that the goal and that's that's what we're working I mean, that's the goal for them, you know to weed us out to discourage us, you know, to weed us out, to discourage us, to bring trauma and drama and all the things that,

you know, as black women, we have to deal with every single day anyway. Can I chime in? Yeah, go ahead. Okay, Ellen and I are sisters, and we're from South Carolina, fellow South Carolinians, they're Charlemagne, and we come from a very big family

in a very small town, where four out of 10 people in our town are unbanked or either underbanked. So they don't have the debit cards to shop online. All they have is to go into our local Walmart and get products off the shelves. So that's 40% of our clientele that can't shop online. Now we're not telling you not to shop online because as we all know, we want you to shop online.

But you know, we come from a small town where a lot of our clientele can't shop online. We just get in a wildfire in some of these rural areas. We couldn't even, when COVID hit our hometown, we couldn't even have remote schools because most of the people don't have the internet. Jesus. So we want our people to be able to go to the Walmart

and pick up our products and shop. I think more than anything, so throughout this process, it's been really disappointing to feel the wrath of our own community. Like I started the Lip Bar in 2012, literally making lipstick in my kitchen because I was frustrated with the beauty industry.

It's lack of diversity, it's excessive amounts of chemicals. But I really want it to center black women. And I've been doing that for 12 years. Like 12 years I've been standing up for black women saying, hey, you are enough. Hey, I am creating products for you. Hey, I'm making sure that I am building our self esteem collectively. And so when this happens, I want our community to know that like we are disappointed too.

Like we're upset with Target and Walmart and Google and all of these companies that have shut down their DEI but to ask us to Remove our products from retail It's unrealistic because what does that look like for most black businesses? It looks like a shutting down our actual businesses. So you asked like how does it work to get into retail? Well how it works is we buy inventory upfront months in advance. You're an event. So when you think about retail, when you think about retail it's kind of a crazy thing. Like we buy products to sit on show just in case you want it. Which means that we are having to outlay capital

at the forefront for thousands, hundreds of thousands of dollars and thousands of units so that if you go into your local Target Walmart CVS, it is available for you. You basically front and target the brick. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Because what happens is-

Is there a minimum on that? Like, amount of inventory you have to carry? It depends on how many doors you're in. Because I know some stores do have that. Yeah. It's a large amount and they don't give you money to up it. And they don't give you money to up it. And so you have to buy that inventory,

but you don't get paid on that inventory for sometimes eight months, you know, a year depending on when you set. And then once they place the order, you can have terms that are net 60, net 90. So like black owned brands are waiting on their finances to come through. We can't just pull our products from Target.

We're in contracts with them. We are, for the most part, dependent on retailers to ensure that we have the visibility and to make sure that we have the turns. Now some people will say like, oh, well just make sure they shop at your dot com. Y'all, in 2020, when black people, when it was a trend to shop black businesses, we all benefited.

We all benefited. It felt good. We were living in the money. We hired more people, we bought more inventory, and then guess what? It wasn't in vogue to shop black anymore. So I want us to remember the buying power of black businesses.

Sure, if you want a boycott, boycott, because there is so much power in our dollars. But at the end of the day, we have to be intentional about our shopping to make sure that our dollars are going back to our communities. Because guess what? Black people hire black people.

My team is 75% black. My team is 100% women. I'm investing in my community. I gave $35,000 in grants to black women last year. So it's like, this is what black businesses are doing. So the minute you decide that shopping black is a trend, it negatively impacts us. The minute you decide that you won't shop

in the stores that carry our products, it will impact us. Now, we're not here to say you should shop in these retailers. If you feel disrespected, you have the ability and the right to take your dollars wherever you are most comfortable. But to your point, don't forget about us. Please do, in fact, go to our dot com. Yes. And honestly, if you think about the amount of money that is spent,

black people spend on beauty brands, it's like 9.4 billion dollars, right? And as a brand founder, we get about a small percentage of that, like 2.5% is spent with black brands. Think about our community, and if all that 9.4 billion dollars went to these black brands. That's right, man. Yeah, then we would have our own target. And then we could have our own target. And then we could have our own target.

And so that's the thing that, you know, we need to, I think that we need to, you know, I know that there's a boycott, I'm not telling people not to boycott, I understand that. But I think we have to switch our mindset to, hey, you know, we haven't been, you know, shopping fully with these black brands all along. How about, you know about we flood their spaces,

flood, stop buying any other brand and just buy black. The power in that. Yeah, because the reality is, when all of this first started happening, I didn't even know that Target had all of these black brands. Oh, absolutely. To me, that's a good thing to have the awareness, but now what do we do with that awareness?

Absolutely. And then women, I feel like girls who follow beauty, like I remember when you got into Target and I remember being like, oh my God, like that's so lit. Now I can, I don't have to go and like scavenger hunt for her. So it's unfortunate when the, I remember when Tabitha Brown got into Target, like we kind of celebrated because it is the platform, but at the same time, there is some weird stuff because like I heard, I saw a report that one of the brands said that they found out when we found out that the DEI

sent us something. We all found out lies. That'll make y'all feel away. We didn't inform y'all, no emails, none of that. Nothing, nothing. And so now we're just on the front lines fighting for our lives on social media

because people are coming at us as if we did it, as if we created it. So no, we did not have a heads up. That was very unfortunate. But I will say, myself, people like Tabitha Brown, people like B from Honey Pot, we have been having constant conversation with Target about the impacts, about their responsibility in the matter,

and frankly pushing them on what they need to do next. And so just know that just because we are online and we're still selling our products, that does not mean that in the background we are not fighting the good fight within the retailer. Because at the end of the day, I know people are upset with Target and Walmart, but we actually have skin

in the game. Like, yeah, you need to find a new place to shop your toilet paper. But we are actually in business with them. So of course we're upset. We are more upset with these retailers for blindsiding us and for frankly not being clear on what this actually means. Now that being said, all of those brands,

for the most part, shopped or launched and target, before DEI was this three-letter trend word, like going back to like dark and lovely. They've been pushing and building small black-owned businesses. So as far as I know, they will continue to do that. But the reality is we are witnessing an attack of DEI. We are witnessing an attack from the government on DEI. So how are we all supposed to manage that?

Are we supposed to shut down our Gmail? I was gonna ask, did DEI get your products in there? Did they give you the opportunity to get in there? No, no, no. We got into retail because we were a strong brand. opportunity to get in there? No, no, no, no, we got into retail because we were a strong brand. Now, do you know, some of the buyers look like us and they appreciate, you know, representation? Absolutely. You know, some of the buyers that we

have met with, you know, with some of our retailers, they are African American buyers. And that's so important to, to make sure that, you know, we, sure that we have those people in those positions so that they can bring in brands like us and understand the importance. But if you look at how much African Americans spend, I mean there is- These retailers are all in the money making business, right?

And we spend money so we don't foresee our brands going in. I mean, you know, we don't, our brands going in. I mean, you know, we don't, they wanna make money and our consumers spend the most money. That's just facts, so I just really. Black women spend nine times our white counterparts on beauty products. And so obviously there's a difference in a black woman's hair and a white woman's hair.

In terms of makeup, aside from color theory and a brand caring enough to actually have a wide range of colors, there's no real difference. And so my buying team is actually not women of color. They've never been women of color. And so I think that speaks to the idea that like, to your point, they're in the money business. Like everybody here is trying to fill a gap.

Everyone is trying to figure out how do I get more customers to shop our products? And this is where, you know, if you have a Rucker Roots, if you have a lip bar and you understand that this can bring a different customer, you have an advantage. And so we all have strong businesses, we all have strong brands, we have strong followings,

and that's how we've been able to stay in retail this long. You know, last time I got hand on your products, Melissa, we was at the DNC convention and Governor Gretchen Whitman came and bought your products just to give me and Angela Rye and who else was it, Tiffany Cross, like just gave us all products at the table.

So it's clearly not just black women. I love Big Rich. So I am from Detroit. Detroit is a big part of my resilience and my grit. And like she has stood up for Michigan in a big way. And so she's one of those people where it's like, if she decided tomorrow that she can't use the word DEI anymore, I'm not gonna say like oh, you know

She she not about the people like she has shown me over the years that she is showing up But we we love us and big rich I want to expound on that right because somebody told me and I don't know if it's true They said Target didn't actually roll back their initiative. They just changed the name. Is that true? I think that a lot of these corporations are scared to get sued by the government, right? I think that's what they are nervous about, you know, this new administration coming in

and making all these changes and the war on diversity, equity, inclusion. And they're scared to get sued if they put it out there. And I know, you know, just this week, we just we just shipped huge orders to, you know, one of our retailers. Yeah, we were. We're major expansion. Yeah, we just.

But, you know, that has been in the plan for a long time. Like Melissa spoke to earlier, it's not like an overnight thing. But of course, they could have gone in and canceled those orders. They could have not sent them to us because that is their prerogative to to not send the purchase orders. But we're in the process of shipping tons of inventory to one of these major retailers that have come out and said that they are against the diversity, equity and so they double down on their D.E.I.

So they're like, send us your stuff. No, they are part of the, they have rollback diversity equity inclusion, but we are getting huge purchase orders from them. The product is moving, so they can't do that. But we need the people to go into the stores and purchase the product. What's the store, can we say the store name?

Walmart. Walmart. Walmart, okay, okay. Okay. Okay. Yeah, and same. Same on the Target front. So, like, we've had conversations, and we're like, what does this mean for our brand? Because, like, you know, it's crazy to the idea of, like, being so outspoken on this without going to Target themselves.

Like, we want to go straight to the source. So, we're like, yo, what's up? What does this mean? What does this mean for our brand? And they're like, this means nothing for your brand. We will continue to invest in your brand and we've seen purchase orders that were larger than usual,

but not because like they feel bad, because the products are moving. We're known for our lip colors. We've been doing this for 12 years, and we continue to grow year over year. And so that retailer is going to see that, and they're gonna continue to double down. They're not just kicking all the black brands out.

I just wanna be clear about that. Yeah, exactly. But I wonder if that's because they're calling it a buy-cott, because there's some people who are like, no, I'm going to go in these stores and I'm going to buy all the black products. I may not, you know, buy anything else, but I'm going to buy the black product. And we want you to do that.

And we're not telling you, like we're not here to tell you where to shop. We're here to tell like ask you to shop with us. You know, we're not telling you, oh, yeah. We're not telling you not to go into Target. Tell people the effects of what it does to your business. Absolutely. Absolutely. It was something because Tamika Mallory was here and she was saying that, you know, when people go to these stores, sometimes they forget, like,

you know, they'll go to get my go get the lip bar. They might go get ruckaroutes. And they like, oh, that toilet paper is right there. I got to grab you toilet paper. That's the reason they do it. But people don't, you know, understand the effects of people who are, you know, have businesses in Target or Walmart or Sam's Clubs or Costco that it affects. So what do you tell those people? Like, so you tell them, look, we understand the boycott,

but you got to you got to you got to understand that we're supporting so many of our community and we got to make this happen. We got to make this work somehow some way. I tell them, shop wherever you decide to shop. But shop black, shop with us. We want you to buy the products wherever you feel comfortable buying them, wherever you have access to buying them, because so many people,

like I own was mentioning earlier, they only have certain amount of stores that they can actually shop. If you have the luxury of boycotting and you feel the need to boycott then go ahead and do that. But some people don't have that luxury like I said and we have you know we always talk about promoting generational wealth promoting you know giving back. We have a fund a Rucker Education Scholarship Fund where it's going on our 12th year where we give back scholarships to students

from our hometown that are first generation scholarship students. So we wanna do more of that in our community. We wanna create more generational wealth. And in order to do that, you have to continue to support our brands because we have done everything. Like Melissa just said,

we just fronted so much inventory. And we want to sell it through because we, you know, if not, then we'll have these huge buybacks and that just charge backs and that just really hurts our business and our brands. I wanted to, you mentioned the thing about Target just changing the name. They did both.

So they changed the name of their supplier diversity team to supplier engagement. And then they changed the name of their supplier diversity team to supplier engagement. And then they also got rid of their belonging at the bullseye, which is a strategy to include black employees, build meaningful careers, and improve experience of black shoppers and promote black owned businesses. So they did both of them.

And I know we're talking about Target, but for us, Rucker Roots, we're in seven seven different retail stores So there's so many other options to show you so we're in Target. We're in JC Penney. We're in Belk. We're in Sally's we're in Amazon. We're in Walmart Walmart Walmart and if you look at you know, JC Penney and Belk They have doubled down on their DEI. They are you know, JCPenney and Belk, they have doubled down on their DEI. They are, you know, they are adamant about keeping diversity, equity, inclusion with,

you know, their companies. And we're there too. So, you know, we and our products, you know, we're on shelf at all of those places. Have you ever looked into the night sky and wondered who or what was flying around up there? We've seen planes, helicopters, hot air balloons, and birds. But what if there's something else, something much more ominous, that appears under the cover of night? Silent. Unseen. Watching. They may be right above your car late one night as you cruise

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A friendly neighbor appears out of nowhere and promises to make all my dreams come true. Let's not forget that David Bloom was a professional con artist, so you didn't stand a chance. But my dreams soon turned into a nightmare. Bloom generally targeted people with money. And I was not alone.

He took over 100 people for over $15 million. One of the victims was his own grandmother. I was married to David for almost 10 years. It was insane. I was barely functioning. And I just had this realization that he will not stop until he kills me. Getting a con artist to pay for their crimes isn't easy. Charge David Blum!

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Listen to Carefully Reckless on the Black Effect Podcast Network, iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts. And as a Black-owned business, if you're going to boycott one, then flood the other. Our website is, I mean, we have a warehouse in Indian land, South Carolina, where we're shipping, packing, sending orders out every day on our e-commerce. And a lot of times I own and are in there. Like last week, I posted on my social media, I was like wrapping a palette that was going

out to Walmart. Like we're still in there grinding every single day. And so, if you're gonna, you know, say, okay, we're gonna not shop here, then shop elsewhere. Support the brand elsewhere, where you feel comfortable. I think one of the misconceptions is that if a brand is in retail, they've already made it. Like, they're already huge.

And it's like, just because we get press or because we're on the breakfast slip, that does not mean that the brand has actually gone the distance. So I just want people to know that by not shopping, black owned, no matter what the channel is, know that you are impacting how someone is feeding their family.

Like, just because the lip bar, you know, press and likes do not equal dollars. Like let's not get fooled by the social media hype y'all. And so people will say like, oh, they already got it. It's fine. They can miss the dollars. No, cause we got payroll every two weeks, my boy. What are you doing?

We can't. We got warehouse, we got warehouse rent, we got rent to pay. We got all the things. So, yeah. What about, oh, go ahead. I was going to ask behind the scenes though, I don't know how close a lot of you like the black owned brands were in these major retailers, whether it's Target, Walmart, whatever. But I feel like now because y'all are kind of going through this together, has it created

a line of communication or system? Where you guys are figuring out things amongst your own selves for the up-and-coming like black owned brands that will hit retail like shops And yeah, I had a call actually like pretty much immediately after it happened Renee blew it from she did that she helped organize it and My first thing was like, y'all need to reach out to your buyers. Cause a lot of people are afraid. A lot of people were like,

I don't think I have the leverage to even reach out to Target and ask them what's going on. I'm like- There's smaller brands in Target that are black. There's smaller brands. But meanwhile, it's like, we've been in Target for like eight years. So I know that I can reach out

and I did reach out very aggressively actually. But I'm like, no, reach out to let them know that we are coming together. Reach out to let them know that we are demanding that y'all give us some responses and some meaning to what this is. Reach out and let them know that we won't just stand for this.

And so I do think that it is bridging the gap because typically I think one of the issues in the black community is that we hold things to the chest and it's okay to be vulnerable because like the more we are vulnerable, the more information we get and the more information we have, then we can actually make better decisions.

And so I think it's absolutely happening and I'm proud of the work that a lot of the black-owned businesses are doing right now. Can we talk more about, like, you know, is it fair for black-owned products to receive backlash for still having their products in Target? Are any of these stores that are rolling back the DEI? No!

That's not fair! No, it's not fair. It's not fair, because here's the thing. Like, people are complaining on Meta that has rolled back their DEI. People are using their Gmail that has rolled back their DEI. People saying that black owned businesses that are already small, that are already underfunded,

black women receive less than 1% of all VC dollars. And I actually think that the number went down post COVID. Like we can't afford to do it. So what people are asking us to do is essentially fill our houses, close our doors, fire our entire teams. And it's like, are you doing that for the community? Are you doing that for the struggle? Are you quitting your job without a plan

to feed your family? Until we are all locked in arms that this is what we're doing for the culture, it is unfair. Now we're not over here saying you need to keep shopping at Target or Walmart or Amazon, any of these places, because they have all decided to shut down DEI. What we have said is like, we have websites.

Yeah, I have a store in Detroit. Like shop wherever you choose to shop. That is your progress. Give us a little. And I can say that 25% of our sales come from our internet, from our e-commerce, from our website. So the other 75% is from being on the shelves. So that's our livelihood.

So we need you guys, you know, we need to stay on the shelves and we need you guys to purchase from Walmart. Give the black brands more than 2.5% of the $9.4 billion that is spent on beauty. And it's so easy for beauty. Give us more percent, give us a little bit more of that money, right?

I mean, that's all we're asking If you go into your makeup bag if you go into your your linen closet if you go into your your actual closet How many of those brands like your fashions, how much of it is Black-Own? How much of your makeup? Not for you. I'm not gonna say, I'm not gonna say, I'm not gonna say, I'm not gonna say, I'm not gonna say, I'm not gonna say,

I'm not gonna say, I'm not gonna say, I'm not gonna say, I'm not gonna say, I'm not gonna say, I'm not gonna say, I'm not gonna say, I'm not gonna say, I'm not gonna say, I'm not gonna say, I'm not gonna say, I'm not gonna say, I'm not gonna say, I'm not gonna say, I'm not gonna say, I'm not gonna say,

I'm not gonna say, I'm not gonna say, I'm not gonna say, I'm not gonna say, I'm not gonna say, I'm not gonna say, I'm not gonna say, I'm not gonna say, I'm not gonna say, I'm not gonna say, I'm not gonna say, I'm not gonna say, I'm not gonna say, I'm not gonna say, I'm not gonna say, I'm not gonna say, I'm not gonna say, I'm not gonna say, I'm not gonna say, I'm not gonna say, I'm not gonna say, I'm not gonna say, I'm not gonna say, I'm not gonna say, I'm not gonna say, I'm not gonna say, The lip bar is constantly begging people to shop the lip bar over elf or over NYX

Like and it's not just about the lip bar. There are lots of black-owned brands you can shop. This is not just Yeah, it's about our community, right? We would love for you to go on our dot-com but we know that only 25% of our sales come from there I mean we make more money when you shop on our website first, you know our personal business website. So, but. Has anybody from Target reached out at all? Yeah, I've talked to Target about six times.

For like two weeks. Okay, but what do they say? Like what do they say to y'all? They ain't saying nothing. But you know like our sales team with Walmart, we've had several conversations with them. Like really strong conversations and they say the same thing We didn't bring you in because of diversity equity inclusion We brought you in because you're a strong brand and we're you know

We're gonna keep you there as long as you're performing, but that's the key we have to perform But they plan to like to say more to kind of like protect y'all a little not protect y'all cuz y'all don't need them to protect I don't even know why they put out a press release to begin with protect y'all a little not protect y'all because y'all don't need them to protect you. I don't even know why they put out a press release to begin with to say yeah I feel like they kind of like it aggravated things when it did yeah so they don't plan on like what's the remedy because if this was the black square era they would have been came out in I don't know where a cloth or something so I'm like, oh, I'm gonna have to take off 24 hours a day talking right now. When Nancy Pelosi joined the Kinkans,

that was a different time. Now they can be silent and no one cares and it's like, whatever, but you can't plant, because you guys don't seem like you're leaving anytime soon. Well, we can't afford to leave. Right, we can't. You can't be weird. But I'm saying, so it's a partnership, it's too weird.

I think that people have to continue to put pressure, honestly, so I mean, in my conversations with Target, they have been apologetic, they have been clear that they are continuously investing in small black and brown brands. Like, this is literally from like their mouths over the last two weeks. But I'm like, listen, don't say it to me,

say it to the public. Because it's the public who is upset. It's the public who you owe something to, not just your vendors. And so I think we have to just continue to tell our story and demand what we want to see. And you know, I wonder, I haven't spoken to, and this is why it's so difficult, right?

Cause I love y'all, but then I love the Nina Turner's and I love the Tameka Mallory's and I understand why you feel the way y'all feel and I understand why they feel the way they feel. But I wondered, was there any conversations amongst y'all, but then I love the Nina Turner's and I love the Timmy Kamalleri's and I understand why you feel the way y'all feel and I understand why they feel the way they feel, but I wondered, was there any conversations amongst y'all? Did anybody, did any of the people wanting the boycott call any of the people who have brands in the store? Nope.

I talked to Roland Martin. Okay, okay. And he was like, we got a boycott. And I said, well, we gotta do whatever we gotta do, but just make sure that y'all are clear on having a plan to continue to invest in and support black businesses because it can't be this thing where it's trendy to shop black today. And then two weeks later, you know, we're not in vogue anymore. Yeah.

Like 2020. I mean, I live with someone that's on the front lines. Bacardi. Yeah. My husband is on TV fighting the good fight every single night. And we have these conversations at home. And he understands that I have a business to promote. He appreciates the boycott.

We're boycotting. And civil rights movement is part of our bloodline. Like we're from the deep south. And in that, I appreciate, you know, their movement because that's how things have changed in history. But like Melissa said, you know, it can't just be a trend to forget about these black brands. And so I think it just has to be, you know, it can't just be a trend to forget about these black brands. And so I think it just has to be, you know, people have to look at it in a

different lens. And that's why I think it's so important for black brands to have these conversations with the public. Like, hey, you know, that's great. You know, if that's what you want to do, then, you know, vote with your dollar. That's fine. Yeah. Would you say to do, then, you know, vote with your dollar. That's fine. Yeah. But the thing is conversation, right? It's something that you said earlier. Most time people, when they see something in a store, they automatically think you made it right.

Yeah. No. I mean, it's successful. You guys are rich. You guys are filthy. You guys are billionaires because they don't understand what it takes. So without having these conversations, people don't understand. And not only that, as a dad that goes into Sally's, a lot of times I don't know what's a black brand or what's a regular brand.

My wife says, go get some shampoo. Or we need a new shampoo for whatever. So when I ask the lady at the front desk, a lot of times might not be black. She gonna be like, don't think you black. Yeah. Stop. Stop, Shalane.

You know who died too? No. They're checking the shot at me saying that I use just for men. But anyway. You don't need to support black brands. That's basically what he's asking. But we need to have more of these conversations so people understand what it is because a lot of times I don't think people actually get it because the first thing you think of is when you see a brand and target is that you guys have made it. And it's not necessarily the truth. And I believe I

know there's guys like John Hulbright who have presented you know plans on what should happen I believe what he says he says we should redirect energy towards supporting companies that double that double down on DEI and he says we should position diversity equity and inclusion as a business imperative not a political agenda. But, right. But is it realistic to do that when the government has made it a political agenda? So some of the companies, right, and Target aside,

like if the government is like, we're gonna cut your funding, if you uphold your DEI, what is that company supposed to do? So maybe it doesn't impact Costco, because maybe they're not receiving government subsidies. But for those companies that are, how does that work?

And I'm really asking, because I feel like we have to be clear that it's not just the companies that are doing this DEI pullback. It's also Trump. If you just don't be. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, it's because of Trump.

But I guess, you know, John, who Brian is saying that you should reframe the narrative around diversity, equity and inclusion as critical for economic competitiveness, innovation and market growth. Like it impacts your bottom line. That's what we should be telling these companies. Yeah, they know that, though. You know what? Yeah. When first thing you learn in if you have a retail background It impacts your bottom line. That's what we should be telling these companies. They know that though.

Do they? What? First thing you learn if you have a retail background or seller's background at all, is market study and numbers. Retail stores are placed, they choose clothing that goes into Nordstroms based off who lives around that Nordstrom. They know what people look like, how they shop.

They know all of that. It's just do they have to care kind of to her point. And that's what I said. That's why when I said do they, it's like, why would they even put out a press release? Like, why would they just put this press release out? Because I think they was leaked. They didn't put it out.

From the target perspective, they didn't put out a press release. I didn't know that either. Something was leaked. And that's why like they still haven't said anything because they're like, we didn't say anything in the first place. Say anything in the first place. But nobody said anything. I haven't seen Walmart saying anything. Oh, Walmart absolutely put out a release. They they're like, we didn't say anything in the first place. Say anything in the first place. But nobody said anything.

I haven't seen Walmart say anything. Oh, Walmart absolutely put out a release. They did, okay, what did they say? But they did say what they're gonna continue to do, and I think that that is what is owed to the people. Like, instead of just saying like, okay, we're killing DEI, be clear on what that means. Be clear on what that means for not only your customers,

but the people who work there. Yeah. Or if they're concerned about Trump and the administration giving them lawsuits or whatever, if they continue. Change the name. Like, do emerging brands. Like, change the name, but don't eliminate these brand owners and these companies that have worked so hard

to get to the place that you are. Because if you say you're just getting rid of DEI and you think that you just don't care about black people, you don't care about whether black people shop there. And black people get, first of all, black people are not the biggest beneficiaries of DEI. It's white women. White women.

It's white women, it's veterans, and it goes so much further than just black people. It's, DEI is the pumping rooms that women have when they're pregnant. DEI is the accessible ramps for disabled people. But I know black people, because we are so, unfortunately, used to being oppressed in this country, we immediately are like,

they hate black people. And rightfully so, right? So it's like, okay, well, tell us that you don't. And I think that's what we're all waiting for from all of these companies. Let me ask this question, and I know that y'all have answered it in different ways throughout the interview,

but I just wanna be clear. What do you think is the appropriate strategy to let these companies know that we don't like how they drop DEI without affecting y'all's bottom line? The companies or our community? Both. I think we have to keep being vocal. I don't think there's anything wrong

with putting a bullseye on Target and saying we won't accept this. But I also think that in the same vein, we have to be intentional shoppers to ensure that we are actually voting with our dollar. But keep putting the pressure on Target, why not? Well, that bullseye affect your business though. When they look back and be like, you know what?

Melissa's being too difficult with this damn bullseye. Let me go with you. Well, let me say she don't care if they boycott Target. Not if our sales aren't impacted. So like, they speak green first. Yes, exactly. So buy a cot. Yeah, so you're performing,

and if your products aren't just sitting there, and if they're making money and all the things, then they're gonna keep you there. Then Melissa can say whatever she wants to say. I have to be fine, because all they care about is the money. The green. Because you the biggest black-on-makeup company in Target, right?

Yep, yep. And we've been in Target since 2017, 2018, and we've grown year over year. And of course, we're disappointed. But we're not gonna pull our products from Target in this moment because it doesn't make financial sense for us, but we will continue to put pressure on Target and say, yo, like this is not okay.

Right. And. Oh, go ahead. Oh no, go ahead. You go. I don't even know what I'm about to say. I was gonna ask, cause this whole thing brings up a conversation of like how people feel when,

especially the black beauty brands begin to, if they're bought out by non-black people, stuff like that, I remember, I think, was it Courtney's brand, or was it my own? It was one of those brands that, something like that happened with, and they got dragged for. And when this happened, I remember there was a thread that I read, and they were basically saying,

this is why we should only sell through us. And I was like, but what does that look like? How do you do that? I guess it's like owning your own store in Detroit versus, and doing more of that versus being in Target. How do you guys feel about that conversation of like, you know, like even in, I don't know, investors or kind of the capitalism conversation.

Mm-hmm. I think that it's important for us to remember that when you're growing a brand and And you get to a certain level There's only so much that you can do and you have to bring in investors and you have to bring in different you know Amounts money to scale to that global and to hit that global brand and and when companies decide to sell You know, I know a lot of companies have this upset, but they they also bring that money back to the community

They give so much money. They funnel all that you know so much Scott so many scholarships and and so many You know grants and everything back into the community. I think it's kind of unfair and everything back into the community. I think it's kind of unfair to put that amount of pressure on black brands because aren't you growing your brand for a legacy, for economic growth in your community? Aren't you growing your brand so that you can make a difference,

that you can leave something behind greater than you? Isn't that the purpose? I want to see you sell Ruckaroots for a billion dollars and then go open up five more businesses. But that's what I'm saying. Like, and so in other communities, people don't give them hell for selling their products. No, they get celebrated.

They get celebrated. And I think that's so unfair. It's unfortunate. And it is unfortunate. I don't like it. When Rich Dennis sold Shea Moisture, he started the New Voices Fund to invest in black women. And some of your favorite entrepreneurs

were beneficiaries of him selling Shea Moisture. So he invested in Lip Bar, he invested in Slutty Vegan, he invested in Honey Pot, he invested in MyO Organics, he invested in Natural Clot. Like literally almost a lot of the poppin black owned businesses right now came as a result of that sale. So to your point, it's really about what people do with the money when they sell. And then I totally understand people being upset like, oh, we can't have nothing

because I feel like that's how the community feels. Like, you know, as soon as a brand grows and we support it, they sell to a white company or a white person. And my question to you is like, well, who do we sell it to? Unfortunately, there are no black Procter & Gamble's or Unilever's, because why? Because we only spend two and a half percent of the $1.4 billion with black brands.

And so if we were to pull our dollars, and even if we just only focused on beauty and say, you know what, I can commit to only shopping black beauty. Clothing might be harder, shoes might be harder, your pantry might be harder, but beauty is not that hard. There are hundreds of black-owned beauty brands, but we are still fighting with multinational corporations. People are absolutely still buying the L'Oreal's

and Maybelline's instead of the Lip bars and the Danessa Myricks. And so we would love to shop or sell to black people. It's just that that's not an option. So what do we do? Do we not realize our generational wealth? Because most black people, our wealth is actually tied in our equity,

which means that we have to have a liquidation event. That's what it's called. A liquidation event is when you sell some of your equity so that you can get some of the money. Yeah, Melissa Butler of the Lip Bar is a millionaire on paper, baby, on paper, which means that I need to do something to actually get liquid. So I just, I want y'all to understand how business works,

especially when you fundraise. But that's the most difficult thing, right? You're trying to explain business to people who don't have no business. So they're really not supposed to get it. But they don't have the education for it. But they're loud, but they're trying to explain business to people who don't have no business. So they really not supposed to get it. But they don't have the education for it. But they're loud, but they're loud. They're loud.

They're loud. I remember when they got mad at Beatrice when she sold for what, was it 380 or something like that and she kept the minority stake and was still CEO. And I'm just like, I was happy for her. So proud. Like to your point, like me, she can't have nothing. And it's like, who she gonna sell it And it's like who she all sell it to.

Exactly. Until we get to the point where we have, you know, these people that have grown brands like Rich that can actually help invest and buy companies and all those things. Until we grow more of those people until we have that Status then we don't have you know and it will continue to happen Yeah, well go out and support these ladies, please tell them how how do they support Rucker Roots? How do they support the little bit of you ww dot rucker roots calm you can find us in seven different retailers You know choose where but just support us.

Yeah. And the Lip Bar? Thelipbar.com. If you're in Detroit, we have our own store, but we're also Amazon, Walmart, Target, CVS. And you can follow us on all social platforms at The Lip Bar. Any final messages for the community?

Because I don't want y' want to see y'all tweeting after this interview at people. Just say what you need to say now. No, we love y'all. We need you, we love you. We are here for the fight, we're in it. For us, we're not telling you to not boycott, but we're telling you to support these brands,

support our brand. We're going on 10 year anniversary and we couldn't have done it without our consumers and our loyal customers. So thank you, continue to support Rucker Roots. Follow us on all platforms at Rucker Roots. And of course, Ellen said online, ruckerroots.com. And we're on Amazon, Walmart, Target,

Sally's, Belt, JCPen, ruckaroots.com. And we're on Amazon, Walmart, Target, Salis, Belt, JCPenney, yeah, and our website. I'll just say the Lip Bar has always been a community-based business. It's the community that has got us this far, and please know that we will continue to invest in the community. We will never turn our back.

I am from the blackest city in America, Detroit, Michigan. So just know that I am always putting us first. Amen. There you have it. That's right. It is the Breakfast Club. Good morning.

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