The Breakfast Club - INTERVIEW: Governor Josh Shapiro Talks Prison Reform In Pennsylvania, Gun Safety, Democratic Messaging + More

Episode Date: June 4, 2024

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The Breakfast Club. Morning, everybody. It's DJ Envy, Jess Hilarious, Shalameen Nogai. We are The Breakfast Club. We have our sister Angela Rye with us this morning. Yes, indeed. And we got a special guest in the building, Governor Josh Shapiro. Welcome.

Good morning. How are you feeling this morning? Good morning, Governor. Feeling real good. Working hard, feeling good. You're not related to Ben Shapiro, are you? Hell no. No.

He said that fast. That's a visceral reaction. Man, every so often, you know, when he says some crazy thing, we got to go tweet, hey, just a reminder, I'm not related to him. Okay. You know, I have a short list of people who I would like to see, you know, run for president one day, and you are on that list. Is that something you have aspirations of doing? No, look, first off, I appreciate that you take some note of the work we're doing in Pennsylvania. Like, sincerely, it means a lot to me. I'm all in for Joe Biden. And I think this is a moment where we've had some conversations.

You've, you know, candidly, you've pushed the party. You've pushed others to maybe think about some things that we hadn't thought about in the past. But we're locked. And this is a binary choice between Donald Trump and Joe Biden. I'm going to do everything in my power to make sure Joe Biden gets elected. I hear, listen, I hear the conversation. I hear the chatter. I hear the noise. I'm humbled to do everything in my power to make sure Joe Biden gets elected. I hear, listen, I hear the conversation. I hear the chatter. I hear the noise. I'm humbled by it, truly. But honestly, I don't wake up at night in the middle of night thinking about it. I wake up in the middle of night thinking about the work I'm doing for Pennsylvania, the work I got to do

as governor. And I think if you stop thinking about that, if you stop thinking about your responsibilities, then you don't serve the people of Pennsylvania well. And that's my focus. If we still have a democracy in 2028, would you think about it? Well, we are going to have a democracy in 2028. We sure are. And listen, I love public service. I was raised in a home where faith and family played a central role.

My faith calls me to service. It's the really I think the work I do every day is to try and help others. There's a teaching in my faith, no one's required to complete the task, but neither are we free to refrain from it. Meaning each of us has a responsibility to get off the sidelines, get in the game, do our part. I love public service. I'm going to keep doing it. And I want to continue to serve as governor of Pennsylvania. Before we get into the questions, how did you get here? How did you get into public service? What made you say, this is something I want to do? Was it something that was done

wrong by your family? What got you to this position and said, I want to run in this crazy politics game? You know, look, I grew up in a comfortable middle-class home. My mom, a school teacher, she was a public school teacher in Philly until she had me and my siblings, and she was an educator later in her life. My dad was just like the local pediatrician, the local baby doc. And they were very focused on helping others. And also, as I said before, you know, Charlemagne, faith played a really central role in our lives. Every Friday night, we were around that Sabbath dinner table, something my wife and I continue to do for our kids today, grounding us in our faith and our faith that teaches us to go out and work for others. And so I didn't grow up thinking I wanted

to be in politics. I certainly didn't grow up thinking I was ever going to be governor, but I did grow up thinking I had a responsibility to others. I had work I needed to do for others. My parents instilled that in me in an early age. It wasn't until later in life, actually in college, where I thought I was going to be a doctor like my dad, and I flunked out of pre-med. I was on the basketball team there, got cut from the basketball team. Both things happened in the exact same day, and I thought my life was over, right? And then literally that night, someone knocked on my dorm room door and said, hey, you should run for student government. I'm like, why would I ever want to do that? It was like never on my mind. As I look back on that pivotal day, which sort of set me on this path,

I realized the truth is service was always there for me. I just didn't exactly know how I was going to do that service. So that's how it happened for me. You played ball? Hell yeah. You ain't got no game. I still do. Dude, I do have game.

Here's the thing you got to understand, shall we, man, about me. That didn't sound convincing. No, come on. I'll talk hoops. I'd rather talk hoops in politics but um when i was younger t-shirt dude i do have game i do we put a hoop in at the governor's residence actually um when i was younger i was quick but the game was slow to me so i was a good point guard i could see things happening problem now being 50 years old is the game is still slow to me in my head except i'm slow as hell now too so i'm not very good anymore if you get injured now it's it's no longer a day to recover now it's like months

and my wife every time i go out and play she'll go don't get hurt i'm like how about hey have a good game score she's like just don't get hurt protected and actually i do i'm sorry i mean talk over i do feel a sense of accomplishment when i get through the game and i don't get hurt protected and actually i do i'm sorry i may talk over i do feel a sense of accomplishment when i get through the game and i don't get hurt one of the one of the most enjoyable things i do is going to a rec center in philly without media without cameras without anybody and just going and playing hoops with the kids there and then talking to them and like hearing their struggles hearing what's on their mind, hearing their frustration, hearing their worry about their safety, hearing their,

you know, the fact, it breaks my heart when some of them, you know, kind of talk about how they feel like nobody's out looking out for them. You know, I think it matters to them. Their governor shows up and actually spends some time with them, listens to them, and you know, frankly, learns a lot from them. You seem like the governor that has the arm brace,

the knee brace, the mouthpiece, and the headband. Is that you? No, that's not me. That's not me. I don't wear the high socks. I still got kids who keep me reasonably cool. Well, cool might be an overstatement, but I look normal when I get out there. One of the things that we know shapes public policy often are the things that we see on TV.

There's a show that's very popular out of Philadelphia right now, Abbott Elementary. It's the one show I'm going to watch religiously. Yes, and of course, Quinta Brunson is creator. You talked about your mother being a public school teacher. How influential has that show, how has that been for you, given your own connection to the public school system? Of course, you had a billion dollar increase in the budget this year to go towards basic education in Pennsylvania. Yeah. Look, I'm proud as governor that we fought hard and successfully got done the largest increase in public education in the history of Pennsylvania.

And by the way, I did that being the only governor in the entire country with a divided legislature. So I got a Senate led by Republicans, House led by Democrats. Fun fact, there's only two divided legislatures in the whole country. That's the Congress of the United States. They don't get a whole lot done. And the Pennsylvania legislature. So we fought hard for that.

I think what Abbott Elementary means to me or sort of says to me, and I realize it's sort of different for everybody, is it shows the struggles, it shows the inequities, but it also shows the love that these teachers, that these administrators have for these kids and the love that kids have back. And I think, isn't that the story of so many schools that, know these kids being able to do well these teachers being able to do well despite the fact the government hasn't always been there for them in an equitable manner that's one of the biggest challenges we're facing in Pennsylvania which is not just the dollars that go to school which is important right and I'm proud of the money we put in but the distribution formula and I hate to kind

of nerd out on you here but you got to make sure that the dollars are flowing to the districts that need it most. And that's one of my big priorities this year is not just increasing budgets, but making sure we're getting it to the schools that need it most. The schools that have been historically underfunded, the schools where kids are really struggling to get by. I mean, I'll give you just a concrete example of this. It's not just the dollars you write to school, but I got too many kids learning who were learning on empty bellies. I mean, you think about yourselves, you can't do this show without breakfast, without your coffee, whatever. Yeah. And so we have big problems that I fought hard and successfully got universal free breakfast for kids. And I had, you know, some people saying, well, kids should eat at home. Well, you know what? There are some kids who can eat at home.

And so we got to be there for them. Same thing with mental health. I know that's a huge issue for you. It's been a big issue for me. I campaigned on it. I talk about it every day. We got a new hundred million. It's about to hopefully go and grow to a $200 million fund just to allow schools to hire mental health counselors, have mental health resources online for kids. We've got to solve these problems for our kids, and we've got to drive the dollars out in a more equitable way so students have a shot. I believe in making sure Pennsylvania is a place

where everybody's got the freedom to chart their own course and the opportunity to succeed. That starts in our classrooms. How would you grade your current levels of equitable distribution? We're talking about schools, so it feels natural to grade you on this. How would you grade it currently when you look at the schools that are getting the resources they need versus those that aren't? Yeah, I think we're making progress, but we got a lot more work to do. And quite frankly, I think we get an incomplete grade. Let me explain why. Our appellate court in Pennsylvania

ruled a year or issue ago, maybe a year and a half ago at this point, that we have an unconstitutional education system. And in effect, they said we have an unconstitutional education system because number one, we're not investing enough. And number two, we're not driving the dollars out in an equitable manner. So we're beginning to claw back on the investment. This year, I got to make some progress on how we drive those dollars out. And so I think it's a fair question you're asking. I'd like to be able to come back to you in a year or two or three and answer it with a letter grade based on the progress that we're making after that court decision. I had a question about some of the gun violence I hear a lot in Pennsylvania.

What's being done to make sure we slow that down or even stop that? And I see a lot of drug use in Pennsylvania. I mean, I'm seeing it all over the country, but I do see a lot in parts of Brooklyn. I see it. I see parts of them in Philly where it almost looks like people look like zombies. Like they're so strung out. What's being done to make sure we take care of that? Yeah.

Look, you got this dangerous combination on the streets in philly and elsewhere as you said envy um between those who are battling the disease of addiction and my words are purposeful addiction is a disease not a crime correct those who are battling mental health challenges and too many damn guns on our streets including ghost guns something that i've been working on for many, many years. These are guns, literally, they come in parts. You buy them on the internet, snap it together. Like, you don't have to be very handy to put them together. And you've got an unserialized gun that's on the streets,

and they tend to end up in the hands of kids. By way of background, before I was governor, I was attorney general. Now, listen, I prosecuted gun traffickers. We prosecuted those high-level drug dealers on our street corners that were infecting these neighborhoods and our kids with these poisons that were claiming too many lives. I held the pharmaceutical companies accountable. Remember, they're the ones that manufactured this drug crisis because they knew this stuff was addictive, and yet they continue to put it out because they knew this stuff was addictive and yet they

continue to put it out because they put profits before people we held them accountable brought billions of dollars back to the states specifically for treatment so i've been a prosecutor i've done that work but i also understand if you're actually going to make our community safe you got to invest in treatment you've got to invest in mental health and one of the things I'm real proud of as governor is you also got to invest in community-based efforts to reduce violence. So yeah, we're hiring more cops, and I'm not ashamed to say that, and challenge me on that if you want, but we're also investing, we're also investing hundreds of millions of dollars in violence prevention money, money for community groups, money for church groups, money for the folks that are doing the hard work of, ideally with kids, keeping guns out of the hands of kids, showing them a way to resolve their disputes without picking up a gun,

understanding that when you pick up that gun in the first place, we've probably failed that child and that generation if we let them think that that's the answer to their problems. So we got a lot of work to do. And my bottom line here is you got to come at it in a multidisciplinary way. It's law enforcement, it's community groups, it's mental health, it's drug treatment, it's all of that. We're seeing some progress. Listen, I'm not going to come on your radio show and say we're out of the woods by any stretch, but we are seeing some progress in the data. That said, if you're a mom that lost her kid,

let me tell you something, the data doesn't matter to you, no matter how good it's getting. So we've got to keep at it. We've got to keep investing. We've got to keep doing this hard work. Why more police officers, though? I agree with all the investments you're making in mental health and fighting drug addiction, but why more police officers?

Because people will say more police officers don't essentially make the street safe. I think police officers need to be properly trained. They need to look like the communities that they are sworn to serve and protect. And we've got to make sure there is order in our communities. You go walk through these communities, as I do, and you listen to folks in communities. They want more police. Now, they want their constitutional rights protected, but they want to make sure that if somebody's wreaking havoc on their block, that order is

restored. And I think you do that by making sure you hire police, again, properly trained, look like the communities are sworn to protect, hold them accountable if they break the rules, but make sure that you've got order, you've got peace, you've got security in a neighborhood. If a neighborhood isn't safe, kids can't learn. If a neighborhood's not safe, families can't thrive. Small businesses can't open. Small businesses can't do well. So you've got to make sure you create that safety.

Safety is not only coming from police, but safety is coming from a multitude of the investments like I was talking about before with Envy. You know, the thing that's interesting about police officers who look like the community that they're policing, I think it's important to understand, too, there can be Clarence Thomases with badges, and that's not always the best interest

of the community. I've never heard it described that way. You get it. Either way, I think that you ultimately have to deal with the fact that looking like the community doesn't mean they're of the community. One of the things that's recently come up with the state legislature that was I think this bill was passed last week. It's a bill that prevents any cell phone handling in the car. And the first thing I thought about, we're like, oh, no, this is another way that black folks and brown folks will be targeted in Pennsylvania.

So I'm curious to know, like when you know folks are naturally, we're all, you know, wired to profile something. We have our natural stereotypical pieces. So somebody's, you know, driving, they got tinted windows or loud music. Are you looking for them to handle a cell phone? The likely answer for that is yes. So there were a number of members in the Black Caucus who were like, I don't know about this. I think they reluctantly signed on. But what are you going to do in addition to collecting the data that they requested in the bill to ensure that our folks really are protected? Yeah. Well, actually, Black Caucus was at the table, and thankfully they were to make sure that

that bill had added protections put in. I'm grateful for their hard work. And by the way, I think it's important to note, I want to come back to the crux of your question. You're seeing a real, you know, real excellence in black leadership in Pennsylvania government today. I mean, think about we've got the first black woman speaker of the House of Representatives. Probably the most important decision I made during my campaign, one of the most important political decisions I ever made, was picking Austin Davis, a 30-something-year-old black male, to serve as my lieutenant governor.

He's been at the table for so many years. By the way, first black lieutenant governor in the history of Pennsylvania. We've got black leaders, history-making mayors in Philly and Pittsburgh and Harrisburg. So my point is, not only are we seeing more people of color occupy those seats, they're massive contributors to the work product

of what is coming forth. And this cell phone bill, back to the crux of your question, this is an example of where they were at the table. There was an opportunity to be heard. There were amendments made. And ultimately, it was not only bipartisan. Remember, I got that divided legislature. But I think folks' views were heard.

Now, to the other part of your question, we have to make sure that municipal police, right, so those are the police in our neighborhoods, and the state police, that's the police under my jurisdiction across the state, are trained in a way that they're not looking for an issue, as you kind of said, I think I'm paraphrasing your question, and making sure that they understand this pullover is designed to protect all public safety, including that motorist, and not for any other reasons. And I can tell you as governor, we will use that data to hold officers accountable if they are abusing that power that their representatives have given them. How do you train somebody's natural biases, though? Because you don't know what's underneath

a person. A person could be racist. They could be sexist. They could be homophobic. You don't know. So how do you train somebody's biases? Yeah, I think a big part is adding, and we're doing this at the state police level, and I want to see more municipal police departments do this as well,

is less training on physical fitness. That's important. Less training on using your gun. That's important. And a whole lot more training on what you're thinking between your ears when you approach a situation. I never thought about that.

Social emotional learning for police officers. No, big time. Yeah. Big time. I mean, listen, there is a natural way you feel. I don't want to put words in your mouth, so please, you disagree with me if I'm wrong. You feel when you approach a situation, a social situation, and you see people that look different than you, you see people maybe behaving in a way that's certainly not criminal or wrongdoing, but that might be different than you. You see people maybe behaving in a way that certainly not criminal or wrongdoing,

but that might be different than you behave. And so I think studying that, understanding that, training about that, that's really, really important. Now, are we perfect in Pennsylvania? Hell no, we have a lot more work to do. But I think that type of training, that type of approach, just that type of acknowledgement by law enforcement leaders that, hey, you know what, when I approach the situation, I might feel a little bit different.

Does that lead me to acting different? I think for the vast majority of police officers, no, they don't. I think they act professionally, they act appropriately. But for those that do, we need to make sure that that training is deeper and it's more embedded in the work that they do. Let me ask you a question. We talked about guns before, right? And the's more embedded in the work that they do. Let me ask you a question. You know, we talked about guns before, right? And the law has changed in the last five years, right? Very lenient when it comes to guns, right? So I'm reading it now and it says Pennsylvania is an open carry state without a permit, right? And Pennsylvania does not limit the type of weapon which a person may possess.

It could be a handgun, rifle, shotgun, or assault weapon. What are your thoughts on the fact that it's been so lenient in the last five years? I mean, at one time, you could not own a gun in New York and New Jersey. And now, you know, with the right permit, you can carry it anywhere you need to. Yeah. And to be clear, if you're going to conceal carry, you need a permit. Right. Open permit for non-concealable conceal.

You need a permit. But it's a lot easier now. Before, it was almost impossible. I think the key here is keeping guns out of the hands of those who shouldn't have them. Criminals, youth, making sure we've got universal background checks. That's something I've been pushing for for some time. Understanding that we can both, and this is a big deal. This is something I deal with every day as governor of Pennsylvania. We can respect the heritage of those who hunt in our rural

communities and are responsible gun owners and appreciate the fact that that mom in North Philly doesn't want to see her kid get shot when he's walking home from school. And you can accomplish both without restricting the rights of either of those individuals and those that they represent. It is really important that we have these honest conversations. Now, again, I got this divided legislature, right? So it's real hard to get stuff like this done. But we've been having more and more honest conversations about that. I go in these rural communities. I talk to these, you know, mostly Republican-leaning, you know, Pennsylvanians.

And I say to them, I'm not here to take away your gun rights, but we can all agree these guns shouldn't be in the hands of kids. These guns shouldn't be in the hands of criminals. You know, they agree. And so what I'm trying to do is bring about some more common sense when it comes to our gun laws in Pennsylvania. I think it's a model for where we need to go in this country. There's a lot of things that you've done that I like, man. You know, I want to touch on a few of them. The probation reform with Meek Mill, the clean slate 3.0. Can you talk to those? And the criminal justice reform. Can you talk to some of that stuff? It's been a big priority of mine. You know, you might think it's sort of strange. Hey, wait, a guy who is a prosecutor is also now

leading an effort on criminal justice reform and second chances. Look, I believe, I think I said this before, D'Angelo, I think Pennsylvania needs to be a place, I think America needs to be a place where everybody's got the freedom to chart their own course, the opportunity to succeed. It starts in our classrooms. It goes through our small businesses. For some, it goes through a union trade hall. For others, it goes through the military.

We've got to create economic opportunity for people. But for those that we fail, for those who didn't get a chance, for those who get caught up in the criminal justice system, we also have to have a heart that believes in second chances. And I do. The legislation, the historic legislation that I worked on with Meek, that I worked on with others in the legislature who did incredible work on this, folks like Jordan Harris, Joanna McClinton, Tony Williams, and others. It says what our values are in Pennsylvania, that we're forgiving, that we believe in second chances, that we want to make sure you can get back up on your feet and get a shot to start your small business, go on your kids' school trip, whatever it may be.

And I couldn't have been more proud and, frankly, more emotional to sign those bills into law. So now we wipe out, that's the clean slate part, wipe out part of or some of your prior offenses to give you a chance to get back up on your feet. We basically cap the amount of time you can be on probation. Look, Meek brought attention to this by virtue of the fact that he was having technical violations that were landing him back in prison. Understand, people literally aren't breaking the law. They're not committing another crime.

And then they were being sent back to jail because of these technical violations. That's crazy. He was trying to take his son to school. Yeah. So that has now been addressed. We've got these, what I'd call sort of a soft cap and opportunity for those not to end up behind bars, not to end up not being able to provide for your family. It's really, really meaningful stuff. And by the way, Meek

deserves a lot of credit. He and I have become really good friends over a number of years. We've had a lot of raw and honest conversations. And if he wasn't willing to put himself out there and share of himself and be vulnerable, which is not something any of us like to do, and certainly he didn't like to do. But as a result of him being out there, he's helping a whole lot of people whose names are not Meek Mill, who aren't famous, who don't have audiences necessarily with the governor or with other elected officials. And I think Pennsylvania is a more just place because of his contributions and the hard work of many of us. You talked about being all in for Joe Biden. And of course, last week, there was some groundbreaking news, historical news that came out with our former president having 34 criminal indictments. A lot of folks have been talking about the need for Joe Biden to pardon Donald Trump

if that were to come up with the federal cases. What is your posture on that, given the fact that you are responsible for balancing a divided state legislature? Yeah. Well, first off, I'll be a legal nerd here for a second. I'm sorry to do that. But he was convicted in a state court. So any pardon Joe Biden could give wouldn't matter. The federal charges.

Right, that'd be a federal charge. And who knows if they're ever going to come to fruition prior to the election. Here's what I think we need to remember. For as challenged as our system can be sometimes. This was a case that was decided by 12 ordinary Americans, 12 of Donald Trump's fellow Americans, heard all this evidence. They considered the law as presented to them. They made sure that they were diligent in their deliberations. And they found unanimously, 34 times,

that he broke the law. And I think, you know, whatever your politics are with you, like Donald Trump, don't like Donald Trump, we have to respect the process. I've seen the process up close, again, as Attorney General. For all of its flaws, juries work.

And juries need to be respected in our system. And so I think the jury should have, obviously he's got a right to appeal. He'll have his appeals. He'll be heard by the courts, but I think the work of juries needs to be respected here. It sounds like that's a no. So I'm going to pivot and say, you talked about, again, being all in for Joe Biden. One of the things that I think Lenar brings up often that is important is there's a lot of attention placed on what we don't like about Donald Trump, that he's a threat to democracy, all the things that are said. What are the things that make you all in for Joe Biden?

Yeah, look, I think there's a clear contrast and there's a lot of reasons to be against Donald Trump. But but I really think and this is why I've always run. You got to provide people with an affirmative view on both what you've accomplished and where you want to take them, right? And so I think if you look at the body of work that Joe Biden has done, and I see this as governor. I mean, there's a lot I'm doing as governor as a result of the help Joe Biden's given.

I think there's no question in this election Joe Biden is better for Pennsylvania and I would say better for Americans. I mean, look, from infrastructure, y'all saw when I-95 collapsed and we got that reopened in 12 days after they said it was going to take months. Joe Biden paid for that. He was on the phone with me over and over and over again, making sure the full force of the federal government was there. That's a big infrastructure project that we all saw. Here's one you probably haven't seen. There's a tiny town called Esplin just outside or in the Pittsburgh area, a thousand or so people, predominantly African-American community. They've been drinking water out of their lines filled with lead for generations. Joe Biden gave a damn about changing out our pipes in that community. And now

that mom can turn on the tap and not worry there are kids getting poisoned with lead. That's not a sexy thing. That's not something that's, you know, y'all are probably talking about on the show, but like that's meaningful. So when we talk about infrastructure and all this stuff, Joe Biden's done on infrastructure, that's a concrete example of something that is helping people live healthier lives in a community that's oftentimes been ignored or forgotten. And yet you can look at all the indicators, right? Particularly when it comes to opportunity in the opportunity economy. We are seeing unemployment at historically low rates. We're seeing small business startups on fire. We're seeing real opportunity come all across Pennsylvania. I realize that

those stats sort of don't vote. I realize sometimes it's hard to feel those stats and it's incumbent upon the president and me and others to kind of turn those stats into real world accomplishments. And that's certainly something that I plan to do and something I know the Biden campaign will continue to do. So why don't they lean on, you know, and I've said this before, on more people like you to deliver this messaging? Because their messaging sucks. And like, I'm not even in Pennsylvania, but I know a lot of the great things that you've done.

So clearly your messaging is getting out there. Why is their messaging so bad? I think we live in a really tough media ecosystem where you got to be on every platform talking every every different way whether it's a newspaper whether it's on The Breakfast Club you name it and I think it's incumbent upon them to make sure that message is getting shared by more people than just the president and vice president she's a hell of a gifted you know communicator but they got to rely

on others whether you know it's me or we got some amazing governors, right? Think about Westmore, Gretchen Whitmer, Gavin, Andy Beshear. I mean, we got incredible governors doing really, really good work. Rely on us. And certainly we're going to continue to talk about that on every medium we can. Do you think the Trump conviction is going to cause political retaliation in the courts?

Because like even jury selection begins the day in the Hunter Biden trial. do you think that it will be a tit-for-tat type thing i want to say no because i believe in the system come on and i i mean you know no i'm not trying to bullshit you i mean like i really believe in this system you believe in the that that other party well the the mega version of that party i it is my hope that judges, juries, prosecutors, defense attorneys will ultimately do the right thing, which is just simply follow the facts, follow the evidence, and render a fair judgment. What scares me about Donald Trump is the way he wants to weaponize our justice system and use it against his enemies. They've said it.

He has. The way he says, literally, he wants to be a dictator. Let me ask you, you don't have to be a great student of history to know. I mean, think about all the dictators that have lived throughout history. You know, how many minority groups do well under a dictator? Not many, right? Minorities get screwed when there are dictators, and Donald Trump has promised to be a dictator.

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If you're ready to dive back into the dating pool and find lasting love, finally, we want to help. Listen to I Do Part 2 on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. As extremist, he is dangerous. He is someone who is out there to exact revenge we don't do well when that happens and so i think while i believe in the system and that's why i kind of paused when you asked that not not that i was trying to evade your question but like i want to believe in the system but i'm scared to death if he's in charge of the system and the way he might try and use it to exact revenge well you sued donald trump? Many times. 2017 was the biggest

one, right? You sound real proud. One year every time. Listen, when I was Attorney General, I sued him over the Muslim ban. I sued him over so many different things and one nearly every time. And then during the 2020 election, he and his cronies sued us 43 times

in Pennsylvania. First, to stop certain people from being able to vote. Let's be honest. They weren't trying to stop people who look like me from being able to vote. And then, after those votes were counted, they sued to stop those votes from being, after those votes were cast, pardon me, they sued to stop those votes from being counted. 43 times. That's a little bit of a tit for tat to me.

Let me tell you something. That just sounds like tat tat tat that's a lot of tat yeah i went 43 and oh and he went oh and 43 the rule of law held and that's i think why i kind of i kind of pause when you ask that question because this system has held i just think now he's a greater danger i mean he is a clear and present danger what's also different are the number of judges he's put on courts that can affect the outcome of these cases. Whereas in the past, the rule of law held, but you had judges who were willing to do the right thing, Republican and Democrat. Now this is a different breed of judges that are out there. And I'm afraid that he's, you know,

the impact is, you know, that he can have to infect our justice system is really dangerous for everybody. The federal case in Miami is a perfect example of this. You know, this, this case is now just suspended in thin air indefinitely because it's a Trump appointee. But you talked about this system holding, and I think it's so important.

And I think, again, going back to something, Lenard says I get mad at, but I think he's right. You have to be able to... I'm Lenard, by the way, Governor. Yeah, I know. I'm sorry. Yes, that's what his mom and him named him. By the way, I saw you all on CNN

maybe a month or two ago, and when she called you Lenard like that, she kind of gave you the side eye at the same time. I saw you sort of lean back. Yeah. When they start to fight in here, you just lean back.

I just lean back. Envy literally is like, we're going to break. here you just lean back um but the system and so i think for people of color in particular you said we don't do well under dictatorships there's not a whole lot of systems even when we help to build them that we do well under not this is not a trump endorsement let me be very clear because people are slow sometimes that's not what i'm saying but we have to be able to say where the holes are, where our blind spots are, and talk about the dangers of Donald Trump. We have to be able to say that right now we are working on justice reform because there are problems. Juries don't always get it right. Prosecutors don't always get it right. Public defenders don't always get it

right. And so where do you find the balance in critiquing the system that you so believe in, right? And saying this is an absolute no, but let me tell you where we can improve. Okay, let me give you a concrete example. So it's not just theoretical. Also the 43 times, you need to say that more. I don't think a lot. I didn't know that. And I think a lot of, right?

That's powerful. Like name it, especially name it because I'm not trying to give you political strategy on here. No, please. Yes, she is. but the the fulton county case it goes right hand in hand with what happened in fulton county so you should use that tell the you know the body say black don't say people that don't look like me say black and brown yeah okay thank you okay i need a pack i got right all this down because all white people don't look like it. That's what I'm saying. No, that's fair. That's fair. You understood my point. But I'll be crisper in my words.

I do believe in the system. But I also know the system is flawed. Let me give you a concrete example. And I saw this up close and personal. I realize you're giving examples where you might have a lawyer, a judge, whatever, with a bias. And that certainly happens. But what I routinely saw where there was a breakdown, where there was an injustice done, is where someone didn't have access to legal counsel, where a defendant was showing up

in court basically with one arm tied behind their back because they didn't have a good lawyer. And when you look at poor defendants or indigent defendants, the problem in Pennsylvania is even worse. We were one of only two states in the whole country when I took office that did not provide funding for indigent defense, public defenders. I campaigned on the idea of changing that. And in my first year as governor, again, divided legislature, we brought Republicans and Democrats together to get this done. We lost that distinction and now we fund our public defenders. Because my view is if you got a fair fight, right, then that's a big part of making sure that the system works. Still got to deal with bias. You still got to deal

with personalities, things like that. But you got to at least start with that fair fight. And now we are beginning to have that in Pennsylvania by virtue of the funding for indigent defense. That's a concrete example. And that also says to someone maybe who has never been involved in this system, hey, I can have a little bit more faith in this process. I can have a little bit more faith in how the system's working. And I'm proud of that. I want people to look at government as a positive, progressive force for good in their lives.

And no matter whether you look like me or white guy or black guy, you look at it and say, Hey, you know what? I'm going to get a fair shot. And I know that there are too many people right now that don't feel that way. And so every day I'm trying to chip away and make it just a little bit better. It's a work in progress. Another thing that you do that I love, you know, in regards to messaging, you have the community text number. Yeah. For people who have questions and comments. Do you read all those texts i read a lot of them i'd be lying if i told you i read them all and i get sort of i have my team give me a you know a sampling of them and by the way good ones bad ones ones with questions one where

someone got help one where someone didn't get help uh and we're constantly working to change that i look i think in government there should be no wrong door to reach your elected representatives, your governor, your mayor, your representative, you name it. We shouldn't have to force the public to bend toward the way we do it. We need to bend toward that. And so if they want to text me, great, I'm going to listen. It's another reason why I don't just stand up at the press conference in front of the podium with the seal, the whole thing. I do some of that, but I also will go tock or instagram and do a live with someone about the very topic that i'm fighting for and reach people where they are and that's look i'm not here to

blow smoke but like that's one of the reasons why i think you all have been so successful you're reaching people where they are you're talking about topics that matter to them not that you're not forcing them to you know sort of bend to what's on your mind you You're in touch with where the community is. And I think whether it's on the radio, whether it's on TikTok, whether it's in the newspaper, you got to meet people where they are. And that's what I'm focused on doing every day. That's why I think it's so important. What about critiquing the party? Like as a Democrat, what do you think they're getting wrong right now in this moment? I think Democrats gave up on rural communities across America, certainly across Pennsylvania, got too damn elite and started erecting artificial barriers to entry.

And I'm trying to rip away those artificial barriers to entry and show up in these communities. Let me give you a couple concrete points. My first day in office, literally my first full day, I signed an executive order doing away with the college degree requirement for state jobs in government, 92% of our state jobs. That's 67,000 jobs that now you wouldn't need a college degree for. And by the way, in the years since I've done that, 60% of our new hires don't have a college degree.

Why do I bring that up? There was an artificial barrier to entry. It was shutting people out for no damn good reason. Sure, you know, if you're going to be a lawyer, we want you to have a law degree. If you're going to be a doctor working in the state, we want you to have a medical degree. But beyond that, like, you shouldn't have these artificial barriers. And I think what our party has done too much over the last generation is we've, we've erected these barriers and said to certain people, we don't want you in the conversation. So I'm trying to do away with that. We've also said to certain communities,

we're not only not showing up, we don't give a damn about you. Let me tell you something. I show up in these rural communities. I talk to folks, I listen, I deliver for them. And the election results show that they're,

you know, I guess happy with the work I'm doing. But I think what it also has shown me, and I'm always learning as an elected official, is actually you go to one of these conservative rural communities or you go to one of these more, whatever, progressive urban communities, everybody basically wants the same thing. It's four things.

They want a good school for their kids. They want safe communities. They want economic opportunity. They don't want anybody fucking with their freedom. You know, they want you to protect their freedoms. And we have too many people right now losing freedoms, losing opportunity. And instead, I think I'm trying to bring people together, Republican and Democrat alike, to focus on those four things. And we're making progress so that I can give a speech in Philly and I can give a speech in rural Venango County. I can go and have a picnic in a rural community last week and go to the Roots picnic this weekend and say the same thing to everybody. And I think that level of consistency we have not always shown in a party. That way of showing up, that way of erecting artificial barriers to stop entry.

That's been a problem for our party. And we're trying to change that in Pennsylvania. So as a Democrat, what do you I deal with in Pennsylvania every day. I think they understand effectively the importance of creating economic opportunity in communities that have been left behind. I think they understand. I think I understand this as well, but you asked me about their party. They understand that oftentimes providing capital addresses an issue way better than some big program that takes a long time to set up and then ultimately doesn't work. I think those are some areas where I respect the, I respect the work that, you know,

some Republicans in Pennsylvania are doing right now. Now, we appreciate you for joining us. Oh, hold on. I got a couple more questions. You're shaking your head. I didn't know. Oh, no, I was just listening. Okay.

So with that said, why do you think MAGA supporters, well, back to what you said. So why don't more Republicans that are, I guess, of sound mind, how come more of them aren't standing up against MAGA? Why are they just letting their party just succumb to MAGA? Yeah, I mean, first off, I understand why you're using that term. I don't use that term MAGA. I think in many ways it's actually disrespectful to the voters

who believe in that stuff. But we'll agree to kind of disagree on that. But it is a difference between traditional conservative yeah values and what we're seeing now a hundred percent what i don't understand is just look at the the sort of election data and again i'm keep coming back to pennsylvania because it's what i know best donald trump wins pennsylvania by,000 votes in 2016. Since that time, Donald Trump has lost Pennsylvania in 2020. And every single one of Trump's offspring, including the guy I beat for governor, right, they've all lost every election. And in addition to that, they've lost branches of government at the federal level. They've lost ground in Pennsylvania.

They've lost ground in other swing states lost ground in other you know swing states I don't get why they keep following this guy and following the approach he brings following his extremism because like even if you believe it I think most of them don't believe it because they're frankly they're just weak cowards that are afraid and so they just sort of go along with him but it's also just not a winning formula. If you look at who's winning, you know, it's me. It's Gretchen Whitmer. It's Wes Moore.

It's Andy Beshear. It's Gavin. It's people that are doing common sense things in these states. And go look at the swing states, Pennsylvania, Wisconsin, Michigan, Arizona, Georgia. I mean, you're seeing Democrats win there on common sense messages, and you're seeing the extremist Donald Trump clones losing there. So why they keep following this guy? I just don't know. It doesn't make any sense. So on a national level, what does it say about the Democratic Party that you got MAGA supporters who are still passionate about Trump,

and they don't care if he's been convicted. They don't care if he says racist things, sexy, don't care about none of that. What does it say about the alternative that they're still willing to support that? I mean, I think maybe it says a lot about how we nominate people in our system today. It says a lot about how, frankly, many of the Republican leaders nationally are just profoundly and pathetically weak people that they can't stand up to this guy. And, you know, I think they're going to have a real reckoning. If Joe Biden wins, as I expect him to win this November, they will have suffered defeat after defeat after defeat with Donald Trump. Like he's not a winner, nor is his brand a winner. And so how they sort of course correct after that, I don't know. Um, you know, you're kind of asking me

to sort of understand or predict the future. And I, I, I just can't, I just know that like, I'm a very common sense, logic oriented guy, and I just don't know why they keep following them when he keeps delivering L after L. You have, you talked about Westmore. I think you all both brought up Westmore. We have one black governor in the country right now. We've never had a black woman governor. We have one appointed black woman in the Senate. But we have, you talk about the party's obligation, like what do you think the party's obligation is to ensure a more multicultural candidate base and bench? We don't have an up-and-coming Barack Obama right now, maybe except for Wes Moore.

What is the obligation of the party to ensure that, we talked about police officers looking like the community, that it reflects its base? Yeah, exactly what I'm trying to do in Pennsylvania. Make sure, look, I realize I have worked my ass off to get where I am. And I was typically not the chosen person by the party or whatever. I've worked hard to get where I am. And I understand now I've got a responsibility to the next generation of political leaders to elevate people who don't look like me, to give them a chance to lead. And that's, again, I mentioned Austin Davis, our incredible lieutenant governor, 30-something. That's the only thing I hate about him.

He's still in his 30s. But Austin is our first black lieutenant governor. This guy's poised to do incredible things if he wants to go beyond being lieutenant governor. Nearly, you know, not every, but many of our leadership positions in our Pennsylvania legislature are led by incredibly talented African-American leaders, male and female. So I think my responsibility is to create that bench, to fund those campaigns, to fund those efforts, to help them be elevated. And I want to be clear, I'm not taking credit for their successes, but I like to think that I'm helping and supporting them along the way. I think if you build the bench there, state after state after state,

then what you're going to see is a real change in our politics going forward. I got three more questions, that's it. Because this is some important stuff. The 10-year strategic plan that you have on aging, that's designed to improve services for older people in Pennsylvania. Why is that so important? Because it always seems like people just forget about the old. They really, yeah.

First off, we've never had that in Pennsylvania before. And just look at some basic math, right? One out of every four Pennsylvanians today is a senior. By 2030, not that far away, one out of every three Pennsylvanians is going to be a senior. So by the way, that creates a whole lot of workforce challenges, which we can talk about if you want. But it also means I want seniors to be able to age with dignity. I want to treat seniors with respect. Most of them want to stay in their homes if they

can. We've got a health care system where we're paying a lot for it, but a lot of times those dots don't get connected and they don't get the help and the services that they need they got ride share programs to be able to get to doctors offices get to the supermarket get to their you know senior center whatever except those ride share programs always don't always sync together with the needs of seniors that plan pulls it all together and it says to seniors in Pennsylvania we're not only gonna fund these things we're gonna make sure that the funding actually makes its way to you. We're going to treat you with dignity and respect. Listen, one of the things that seniors are struggling with, all Americans are struggling

with today is rising costs, right? Everybody, everybody listening to this show deals in some way with rising costs. I think you were posting about Big Macs or something earlier today. Two cheeseburger meals at McDonald's cost $9 now. Right. It was $2.99 when we were running up. Yeah, and everybody's dealing with it. But I think you'd agree, seniors on fixed incomes, it kind of hits them even harder.

That's why one of the first things I did was cut taxes for seniors as governor of Pennsylvania. By the way, we also cut taxes for families as well with child care expenses. We're trying to put money back in people's pockets. So this senior plan is both coordinating services and putting money back in people's pockets and saying to our seniors, we value you and we're going to treat you with respect and we're going to allow you to live your golden years with dignity. And $7 million that y'all are putting into Pennsylvania's main streets and communities.

It's $7 million, right? It's a little more than that. But listen, you want to look at the vitality of a community, the strength of a community, go walk down their main street. Now listen, you go to Philly, you walk down a main street, sure, there's tall buildings. It looks different. There's a lot more people. But there's a main street there and there's a main street in those rural communities too. Maybe it's a lower single story building or what have you. But if those small businesses are doing well, if people see their main street as safe, if people see their Main Street as a place where they can actually have economic opportunity, the broader community is safer. The broader community has more freedom. The broader community has more opportunities.

I believe in Main Streets, and that's why we're investing so much there. We've also created a new fund. This is done. This isn't like pie in the sky for not just Main Streets, but we know a number of small business owners in our communities, particularly on those Main Streets, are minorities. And so we have seen too many minority small businesses not have access to capital and thus not be able to be as successful as we'd like them to be. So we created the first ever fund for historically disadvantaged businesses. So if they want first ever fund for historically disadvantaged businesses. So if they want to use it for capital, they want to use it for repairs,

for whatever, a facade. They want to buy a piece of equipment that allows them to make more product, you know, whatever. We now have funds for both. And that's going to black, that money is going to black people. For black communities, right.

And then finally, when it comes to these small businesses, remember, Pennsylvania, not number one purchaser of goods and services in our state, meaning the state government is. And if you look at our history of procurement, about 4% of all of our contracts went to black-owned businesses and these small, diverse businesses. And so we're changing that. I signed an executive order to increase that amount. So we're coming at this in a number of different ways. We're putting capital in these businesses and we're making it easier for them to get business with the state. You get a big state contract, all of a sudden your 20 person small business is 30 people, is 40 people. You're hiring people. You're creating

opportunities for accumulation of generational wealth. You're transforming these communities with the power of the Commonwealth. So I want to be clear, we're not just like writing checks, we're putting capital out there and we have an organized approach to making sure we are lifting up these businesses, lifting up these Main Streets that have been ignored for too long. Last question. One question. With, I guess, every state dealing with the migrant problem, what is Pennsylvania doing for that situation? A couple of, I think a day ago, two NYPD officers were shot by a migrant.

They said he was, they tried to pull him on the scooter. He was an illegal migrant. They said he came over through the quote unquote Eagle Pass, had a gun. He's been arrested before, but he shot two officers. So a lot of these states having problems with migrants. That's terrible. What is Pennsylvania doing? They're building a wall. We're building a wall in Pennsylvania?

No, I just said that. What is wrong with you? This guy's an idiot. Trying to have a serious conversation. Trying to keep New Yorkers out? Come on. I mean, we don't like Knicks fans, but still, we're not building a wall to keep you all out. Listen, we've gotten busloads of migrants that Greg Abbott has sent up to us. We've got a really wonderful network of volunteer organizations, church organizations, others,

funded and able to provide supports for the individuals that end up in Philly. Candidly, we have not seen the numbers that New York has seen. We've not seen the numbers that Chicago or some other jurisdictions have seen. I think this immigration issue is a failure by both parties. You want to go back to kind of your broad thesis on all this. For years, through Democratic presidents, Republican presidents, Democratic congresses, Republican congresses, they've ignored what is a constitutional obligation to deal with immigration. And this to me is pretty basic.

And this is where we got to stop focusing on extremes and start focusing on common sense. Yes, we should have a secure border. There should be, whether it's a wall, whether it's technology, whatever. We should have a secure border, number one. Number two, we've got to have a responsible pathway to citizenship for those who are here. We've got to make sure that the dreamers are cared for responsibly. And third, we've got to have honest rules of the road going forward to say, if you want to come to this country, great.

We are a welcoming country. We are a loving country. We are a nation of immigrants. That has strengthened our society. But here's the rules you've got to follow. And here's the process you've got to go through. And the fact that Congress hasn't been able to do that, they were a little bit closer a few, whatever it was, a couple months ago until Donald trump threw a monkey wrench into it

and told republicans who supported the bill to do a lot of that hey you got to be against it because i need this issue against your body goes back to the issue i said before these are profoundly weak people who continue to put donald trump before country but immigration is an area where we just got to employ some common sense that's what what the American people want. This is one of those things where the average American looks at this and they see the answers right before them. That's right. Yet the Congress hasn't been able to come together in a bipartisan way and sort it out, and Donald Trump has made that a lot harder.

My last question. You've been very generous with your time. By the way, you said my last question. No, I had three. I did two. You had three, you had two, and then I came over here. This is your final closing. This is Black Church happening right here.

I'll answer your question. There's reports that say nobody flies private in Pennsylvania more than you, Mike Rubin and Meek Mill. So what do you say to people that say the flights are coming out of the taxpayers pockets? We have a state plan. We've had a state plan for, I don't know,

30, 40 years. I can go back and check. And I get around Pennsylvania all the time. I get around meeting people where they are. I show up, I work my ass off as their governor I kind of have this informal rule in my own head

I don't want to be in the office more than three days a week Which means I got four days to be out in the community somewhere listening learning showing up And to be governor and show up in Erie and Philly in the same day. It's impossible by cars I'm using the plane that other governors have used as well. And you know what? Showing up matters. And I think too often times our politicians hide and don't show up. I want to be there with the people.

And by the way, Mike flies on a hell of a much nicer plane. Final pitch to folks for November. That wasn't a question. Here's what i'll say my last last last last question extra last uh my extra last listen um there are going to be two names on this ballot and maybe a few other randos on there as well this is a a binary choice between Joe Biden and Donald Trump. But in many ways, I think this election is not about Joe Biden and Donald Trump.

It's about all of us and what kind of country we want to keep building for ourselves. If you go back and look at the arc of our country, we have always made progress. Now, there have been chapters in our American story where we've taken two steps forward and then we've taken a step back. And I think for a lot of people, it feels like we're in one of those step back moments right now. But if you look at the progress we've made in this country, it something a little bit better for their kids than the way they had it. And so when people go vote this November, I urge them not just to look at the binary choice of candidates, but think about the kind of country we want to build. Do we want it to be decent and honorable where we expand freedom, where we don't contract it? Do we want it to be a place where no matter what you look like, where you come from, who you love, who you pray to, you feel like you have a shot here. Maybe there's not absolute

perfect equity and equality, but you feel like you got a shot where the system, as we've been talking about, is a little fairer, whether it's in our schools or in our criminal justice system. I think this election in many ways is a reflection on each of us and the kind of country we want to build. Now, listen, I think if we want to build the kind of country we want to build. Now listen, I think if we want to build that kind of country, there's only one choice in this election, and that's Joe Biden, a guy who's focused on expanding freedoms, a guy who's decent, a guy who's honorable. I think the other choice is a dramatic reversal. I said before, two steps forward, maybe one step back at times in our arc of history. I fear if Donald Trump is given the keys to the White House again, it's not maybe one step back, it's multiple steps back.

And it's going to take us a generation to recover from that. And so I think when you go to the polls this year, yeah, of course, I'm voting for Joe Biden. I'm endorsing Joe Biden. I hope you vote for Joe Biden. But I hope you think about yourself and I hope you think about the arc of history and the way that it has gone and your responsibility to continue the progress in this nation. All right. There you have it. Governor Josh Shapiro. Governor Josh Shapiro. Thank you for joining us. Governor of Pennsylvania, future president. All right. Great to be with you guys. That's The Breakfast Club. Good morning. Wake that ass up in the morning. The Breakfast Club. Keep going. That's what my podcast post run high is all about. It's a chance to sit down with my guests and dive even deeper into their stories, their journeys, and the thoughts that arise once we've hit the pavement together. Listen to post run high on the I heart radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hello, my undeadly darlings.

It's Teresa, your resident ghost host. And do I have a treat for you. Haunting is crawling out from the shadows, and it's going to be devilishly good. We've got chills, thrills, and stories that'll make you wish the lights stayed on. So join me, won't you? Let's dive into the eerie unknown together.

Sleep tight. If you can listen to haunting on the I heart radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Hey y'all. Nemany here. I'm the host of a brand new history podcast for kids and families called historical records.

Executive produced by quest love theates, and John Glickman, Historical Records brings history to life through hip-hop. Each episode is about a different, inspiring figure from history. Like this one about Claudette Colvin, a 15-year-old girl in Alabama who refused to give up her seat on the city bus nine whole months before Rosa Parks did the same thing. Check it. And it began with me.

Did you know, did you know? I wouldn't give up my seat. Nine months before Rosa, it was Claudette for my name. Get the kids in your life excited about history by tuning in to Historical Records. Because in order to make history, you have to make some noise. Listen to Historical Records on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. and some fun and impactful interviews with your favorite Latin artists, comedians, actors, and influencers. Each week, we get deep and raw life stories, combos on the issues that matter to us,

and it's all packed with gems, fun, straight-up comedia, and that's a song that only nuestra gente can sprinkle. Listen to Gracias Come Again on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Muhammad Ali, George Foreman, 1974. George Foreman was champion of the world. Ali was smart and he was handsome.

The story behind The Rumble in the Jungle is like a Hollywood movie. But that is only half the story. There's also James Brown, Bill Withers, B.B. King, Miriam Akiba. All the biggest black artists on the planet. Together in Africa. It was a big deal. Listen to Rumble, Ali,

Foreman, and the Soul of 74 on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.