The Breakfast Club - INTERVIEW: Gretchen Whitmer On Supreme Court Legitimacy, Debate Advice For Biden, Governing Detroit + New Book

Episode Date: July 11, 2024

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Hey, what's up? This is Ramses Jha. And I go by the name Q Ward. And we'd like you to join us each week for our show, Civic Cipher. That's right. We discuss social issues, especially those that affect black and brown people, but in a way that informs and empowers all people. We discuss everything from prejudice to politics to police violence, and we try to give you the tools to create positive change in your home, workplace, and social circle.

We're going to learn how to become better allies to each other. So join us each Saturday for Civic Cipher on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcast. Wake that ass up. In the morning. The Breakfast Club. Morning everybody. It's DJ Envy, Jess Hilarious,

Charlamagne Tha God. We are The Breakfast Club. We got a special guest in the building. Yes, indeed. We have the Governor Gretchen Whitmer. Welcome. Thank you. I'm glad to be have the Governor Gretchen Whitmer. Welcome. Thank you. I'm glad to be here. How are you feeling? I'm feeling good.

Feeling good? Would you like some tequila this morning or are they too early? You know, good tequila is fine any time of day, but I'm not going to start my day out that way today. I don't know if she wants it because she can't keep it down. She keeps her head back out. That was why I squabbed her on since then. Has that stuck with you your whole life, like that one story and everybody always talks about that one thing? Well, you know, obviously what you're talking about is I drank too much when I was in high school.

And you shouldn't have been drinking at that young age anyway. But I got caught drinking at a high school football game. I was passed out. My principal came upon me and I tossed my cookies on him. And, you know, it was kind of a notorious thing at the time. Everyone in school knew what happened. I got suspended. I got in big trouble. My mother wanted to kill me. But, you know, I tell that story in my book because it was that moment where I screwed up, but I learned a lot and got my act together, started, you know, taking my academics more seriously. I had to because I was at home for a month my grounded but stop mixing your liquors i'm sure yeah and you know rookie mistake for us

we learn when we screw up if you're a if you're a person who evolves and you learn from it then screw-ups have value right so got my act together went to msu got into law school and learned kind of a lesson that if you surround yourself by great people, it helps you achieve what you want to. You learn from smart people. And that's kind of been a philosophy of my life, but also how I've governed. And in the story, you know, in the book True Gretchen, I talk a lot about people like Dr. Jonay Khaldun, who was my chief medical executive during COVID. And I'm proud, you know, we've got one of the most diverse cabinets in state history in Michigan. And when you empower people and have

real representation, empowered representation, you can get a lot of good stuff done. And I think that drinking story was maybe the beginning of my learning that when you got to surround yourself by good people as a mom what do you tell your kids right because your kids are going to make mistakes right you have two daughters yep and all i would say if i was your daughter's mom what about you in high school so what do you tell your kids well that's why i didn't tell them till after they were out of high school but you know you know i mean we're all human and we gotta see the humanity in one another we all fall short on occasion.

We've got to hope that you learn from those times, and I think that's what I've tried to instill in my own kids. They've made their own mistakes, but you know what? Fortunately for my generation, we didn't all have cell phones. We weren't all recording it. It wasn't something that you had a receipt that you had to carry with you the rest of your life, and that's one of the things I try to encourage my kids to give other people grace, give yourself a little grace and put that damn phone down. I only had two more questions about that topic. Number one,

what was you drinking as a teenager? Right. And did you get suspended for actually drinking or throwing up on the principal? Vodka. It was vodka. It was easier to come by. And the, you know, I got suspended for drinking. Okay. But I'm sure throwing up didn't help my cause. Got you. I also like that you kept your book, True Gretch, what I've learned about life leadership and everything in between.

I like that you kept it short, and it's an easy read. Did you do that on purpose? Yeah. You know, Charlamagne, one of the things that I get asked the most, whether I'm traveling across Michigan or outside of Michigan, is how do I stay positive? You know, I ran for re-election, and a lot of people said, why do you want to keep doing this? You know, in my first term, I dealt with a pandemic, a president who targeted me, a plot to kidnap and kill me. 28 recall attempts. Dealt with flooding in Midland that wiped out dams and bridges. We had to evacuate 10,000 people in the middle of the night in the middle of a

pandemic. Dealt with all the hate that came my way. And it was an understandable question. You know, rational people said, why do you want to keep doing this? And so this book really is that. It is kind of a handbook. 10 things I've learned in my life at different times in my life that I have used in situations that I've had to navigate as governor. And I want to give people, maybe you can get a laugh at my expense about the drinking or knocking my teeth out. I talk about that in the book too. Maybe there's a lesson that'll give someone some inspiration when they're navigating a hard time, whether it's in the workplace or in their private life,

or maybe it's just a little light reading. And what I know is a heavy time for a lot of folks, all of us, right? And so that's really what it's about, trying to put a little light out in the world in a damn dark time. It feels like a Judy Blume book in a way. Well, I don't know what that means, but thank you.

Oh, I love Judy Blume. I do too. I'm a huge fan of Judy Blume. It just feels like an adult Judy Blume book. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's nice. I'll take that as a compliment because I think, you know, I'm a-

It's like a coming of age tale in a lot of ways. Well, I'm a real person. You know, I'm an ordinary person. I got an extraordinary job. I'm serving an extraordinary time. But I am a, you know, I'm a real person. You know, I'm an ordinary person. I got an extraordinary job. I'm serving an extraordinary time. But I am a, you know, I'm a human being too. I've got my shortcomings.

I've got things I've learned along the way. And there's something that I can share that might help someone. That's really what it's all about. How would you ever release a book during a presidential election? It's got to be a very awkward time, especially now with everybody talking about wanting Biden to step down. It has to be a very awkward time. Well, obviously, when you write a book, you have no idea what is going to be happening by the time that book comes out. You knew it was going to be a presidential election.

I did. I did. And that's why I wrote it, because I knew this was going to be heavy time. I knew it was going to be hard. You knew the matchup was going to be Donald Trump and Joe Biden again. And I thought, you know, people are going to want some encouragement. And that's what I try to spread. Did you speak with Biden before his debate, right? Because you talk about your previous debates and how you were loose. People looked at you as an ordinary person. They felt relatable. But I think sometimes people don't see that with Biden. Did you have those conversations with him to be like, loosen up a little bit? Or did you have those conversations? Any pep talks? I didn't. And, you know, in retrospect, maybe, you know, that was a missed opportunity on my part. I tell the story in the book, you know, I was running for governor the first time in 2000. And we I traveled all across the state. I was getting ready for my first debate.

Emily's List, you know, a great organization that helps women candidates, sent a debate coach to come talk with me. And the debate coach, I'm always interested in learning more. How can I do better? It was a man, which is kind of ironic, right? Emily's List, this organization sending a man to give me tips. But, you know, he gave me a lot of good, good pointers. But one of the things he said was the happy warrior wins every debate. Whoever looks like they're having the most fun is the winner, no matter what people say. And I thought it was interesting. And his tip was, you know, go in and remember to be the happy warrior. So as soon as you get to your podium, put a happy face on top of your papers. And anyone who's ever been told to smile knows

it has the opposite effect. You tell me to smile, it pisses me off. I'm not going to smile. So I'm like, I'm never going to write a smiley face on the top. So I was thinking, what's going to put me in the happy warrior frame of mind? So a couple weeks before the first debate, we went to go see Kevin Hart at LCA in downtown Detroit. And he had a number of folks open up for him.

And Nyam Lynn gave this great, made this great observation that women are a lot more bold today. Who's Nyam? Back in the day, yeah, back in the day, you know, if a woman was menstruating, she'd be real shy about talking about it. You'd say, come on, I want to come over and get together. And she'd say, oh, you know, my aunt's in town, like Aunt Flo, right? Didn't want to say it, but wanted to communicate it.

He said, today when you say I want to come over and see you, and it's that time of month, the woman would say, you're not coming over? It's Shark Week, motherfucker. And I thought that was the funniest. I mean, I laughed my butt off. And I thought, that is going to put me in the happy warrior mode. You thought about being on your period? No, it's Shark Week, motherfucker. Let's go. And I thought, that is going to put me in the happy warrior mode. You thought about being on your period during the debate?

No, Shark Week, motherfucker, let it go. So I went in and wrote that at the top of my paper, SW, MF. And that kept me loose and funny. And my colleague was all buttoned up. And he said, oh, you know, I'm Bill Schuette on duty. And I said, welcome to Shark Week. And it just kept me loose and happy. And I got caught on a hot mic mouthing the word motherfucker.

And it was during the Democratic National Convention. And I was just off beside myself that someone sent out that footage because it was virtual four years ago. Like I always wonder how much prep is too much prep because I always say the language of politics is dead. So if that is how you talk, why can you not communicate like that? Because that's how most of America speaks. I think you're right. I think you're right. And so like my first, my initial reaction was, oh man, this came out and it'll, it'll. You didn't say, oh man, you said, oh shit. I did. Oh shit. And you know, this is what people are going to focus on instead of what I said. And I worked hard on that speech. I wanted people to hear what I said.

And I thought, oh, geez. But we embraced it. And you know what? People did, too. People started showing up. They make candles that say Shark Week, motherfucker. They got T-shirts, you know. And I thought, you're right.

This is how people talk. It resonated with people. And it turned out to be a really funny episode. And that's maybe the lesson, right? You got to be the happy warrior. Why do politicians try to be the happy warrior well why do politicians try to be so perfect or try to look so perfect right the world is not perfect nobody's ever perfect but it you try to be perfect and then something comes out that shows that

they're not well yourself you talk about everything in the book from your teeth to your debate to the drinking so people know like she's just like me like she does the things that i do she's effed up just like me why why is it that thing of damn being perfect i didn't think that she's effed up just like we all left we're all imperfect we've effed up yeah not she's effed up we've effed up we've yeah we're all real right and and some people don't feel comfortable being real. One of the things I'm cognizant of is, you know, the people that came before me made it easier for me to show up as I am. And I'm trying to make sure that I'm at least doing that for the people that come after me. Women, you know, candidates who aren't often in the majority, right? Black candidates, brown candidates, LGBTQ candidates, right? Making space for people to show up as they

are. Because it's those, I think, who lose touch with their humanity and forget to see that in others that get the least done that actually improve the quality of people's lives. And theoretically, that's what anyone runs for office for in the first place. You have a chapter called Take Nothing Personally. And that's also one of the four agreements by Don Miguel Ruiz. How hard is it to not take things personal when you are a public political figure? People are always talking about you. Yeah.

How hard is it to not take those things personally? Well, it's challenging. And I love that you raised the four agreements. I love that book. That's a book that, you know, I've read frequently. And I actually just gave to all my two kids and my three stepsons for Christmas this last year. I gave it to all of them.

It can be hard to do because the media trolls are 24-7, nonstop. The people that will show up and yell at you are feeling more emboldened than ever to say whatever they want, whether it's grounded in fact or not. And it can be challenging. But I think that is also a great lesson to know that when people are lashing out, it's really not about you. It's about them. When people say mean things about the dress that you wear at your state of the state or how you wear your hair or whatever it is. It's about them. It ain't about you. And any energy you put into it, I think, takes away from energy you need to do real important stuff.

You talk about your hair. Why didn't your grandma want you to part your hair down the middle? Beats the hell out of me. And I said, don't take that piece of advice. But work hard. Wait to get married a little later in life. I think those are good pieces of advice yeah she gave you three pieces

of advice what was it don't put your head down the middle work hard and don't get married until you're at least 28 I think those were good pieces of advice did you follow them all? I did you know I'm a hard worker

I know that I'm raised in a state that you know know, we're full of people that work hard. Michiganders got grit. And I think that that's, you know, part of the title, right? True grit. It's true grudge. But it's a play off that because I think grit is what really defines my philosophy and who the people in Michigan are. We work hard. We show up. We expect a fair shake, and I think that's what has centered a lot of the work that I do. And, you know, like so many people, I was lucky to have two great, phenomenal grandmothers who really had a massive impact on my life. Nino, my dad's mom, Esther, that's my middle name, Gretchen Esther, she was, you know, raised on a farm in rural Ohio. She was at the age in her late 90s was lobbying people in her church to vote for Barack Obama. She was ahead of her time and in so many ways, you know, strong feminist. And she taught me a lot.

But trying to find the good in every situation and every person was something that she imparted on us. And she was the one who said, even the meanest person in the world might have pretty eyes. Try to find the good. And that's something that I have found has been a real important lesson for me to have in the back of my head through all the crazy stuff that I've had to navigate. Yeah, I was going to say the same thing. What's the good in Donald Trump? Your grandmother said, find the good in everybody. Well, you know what?

The one thing I can say about Donald Trump is he can read public sentiment. He doesn't know how to fix anything. He doesn't know how to do the job of president. He treats people with disrespect and, you know, teaches people to hate. And, you know, there are a lot of downsides, but he can read what's going on with people and he can feed into it and feed off of it. And I think that that's a talent. Does he use it for good? Hell no. But that is something that he does well. What made you want to get into politics? What was the thing that says, this is what I want to do? Really, it was the first time around was, you know, I was practicing law. I had

worked for the House Democrats in Michigan. We had a tie in our state house, 55 Democrats and 55 Republicans when I worked there, which was the only time it's ever happened in Michigan. And they had to work together. And that's when I cut my teeth in politics. I really got to see maybe the best in what government can be. And we have term limits in Michigan. And it was like so many women, it was someone else who called and said, you know, your state rep can't run again. You should take a look at it. I thought me as, you know, I've always been active, but me as a candidate never dawned on me. But I kind of looked at the field of people and I thought, man, I can do as good a job as any of these yahoos. So I decided to throw my hat in the race. And I've won every election since. I've enjoyed public service immensely. But I didn't

think when I was done in the legislature, I'd served six years in the House and then eight years in the state Senate. I was a Senate minority leader and, you know, the leader of 12 people in a body of 38. We got our teeth kicked in every damn day. And I thought, all right, I've done my public service. But the Flint water crisis became known. And just to refresh everyone's memory, you know, Flint is a predominantly black city. It was a thriving city for many decades when General Motors had a huge presence there. As the company took resources out of Flint, you know, poverty grew and it was a city that didn't have a whole lot of support in state government. And at a time when budgets were tight, my predecessor appointed a emergency manager who went in and made catastrophic decisions not to

treat the water and the people in Flint got a lot of lead poisoning in their water that became public and that really was what drove me to want to run for governor that the people of Flint deserve better they need a governor who is going to make this right and I looked at at who was talking about running, and I thought, you know what? I know how to do it. I'm going to get in this race. Donald Trump had just carried Michigan, 11,000-vote difference between him and Hillary Clinton in 2016. And I thought, I've got to get organized. I've got to get all across the state.

And I spent two years campaigning in all 83 counties. I showed up in places Democrats write often. And I won. And so many lessons from what happened around the Flint water crisis has driven the work that I've done to try to make it right, to ensure other communities don't have a catastrophe like they had in Flint. And we've made great strides. I'm proud of the work that we've done, but there's a lot more work to do. Is the water fixed in Flint? Yeah, so almost every pipe has been replaced.

The ones that haven't, they had a hard time getting contact with homeowners that maybe don't live there anymore. So, yes, the water is clean. We've expanded resources for nutrition for Flint kids because we know to address lead poisoning, that that's a very crucial component. We just started what we call RX Kids, which is monetary support for expectant mothers and babies.

This is direct dollars into the household that was driven by Dr. Mona Hanna-Attisha, who was the doctor that discovered the Flint lead crisis. So we've done a lot of really creative things. We're continuing to invest in Flint. And crazy to say, but in Michigan, we got great public park system, great state park system. The only county in Michigan that didn't have a state park was Genesee County, which is where Flint is. We've created a state park there, made great investment in downtown Flint so that people can have the kind of amenities that they expect everywhere else in the state, finally.

You've done some things in Michigan that I want to highlight because I think they're great. You said some things. You once said you declared racism as a public health crisis. You required all medical professionals to undergo unconscious bias training to improve health care and target disparities. What motivated you to make that kind of declaration? Well, you know, I think during the pandemic, we saw laid bare the real true discrepancy in treatment and access and information that is shared with and support for the black community in particular.

You know, my lieutenant governor is Michigan's first black lieutenant governor. Dr. J, Jonay Khaldun, who was my chief medical executive during the Flint water, or during the pandemic, is an African-American emergency room doctor. She was one of the first in the country to look at the data, what was coming in. In the early days of our COVID experience, you here in New York were, it was hot here. It was hot in New Orleans. It was hot in Chicago and it was hot in Detroit. We had an incredible number of people that were suffering from COVID and it was disproportionately in the black community. You know, we have, in the early days of COVID, 40% of the deaths in Michigan

were African-Americans. 14% of our population is African-American. And so Dr. J was the first one to see the early data. She was practicing in our emergency room. She saw it firsthand and she said, this is disproportionately hitting my community. We got to have a targeted approach here. And so we created the Racial Disparities Task Force. We did specific outreach to the black community. We spent a lot of money and resources making sure that people had access and had solid information. We drove those death numbers way down because of it. I'm telling you, I don't know that we would have been nearly as successful. It wasn't the fact that we had an empowered black woman with the medical experience and the hands-on experience in downtown Detroit to really drive that policy. And that's why I'm always telling people, you know, diversity matters. Empowered representation, though, is key. It's not enough to have, you know, a proportion of

voices around the table if you're not listening to have, you know, a proportion of voices around the table if you're not listening to them and if they don't feel empowered to really drive the plan. And, you know, most scientists are not skilled communicators like Joan A. Kaldun is. I was real fortunate to have someone that had both those skills. She was by my side at every press conference and designing the policy in Michigan and, you know, declaring racism, a public health crisis, making sure that our racial disparities work wasn't confined to a pandemic because it existed before the pandemic and obviously can exist to this day. But I think we're making strides on it. And she and the lieutenant governor have been key leaders in that effort in Michigan.

Is the unconscious bias training something that's going to transcend past health care? Because I feel like that should be in law enforcement. That should be in the banking system. I feel like that should be in so many different spaces. Absolutely. We require all state employees to go through it. So whether you're working with people in the health care space or in law enforcement or anywhere for that matter, it's important to recognize we all bring bias.

Like we are human beings with lived experiences that inform how we act. If we're cognizant of it, we can do better. But if we're not talking about it, not thinking about it, not examining it, we aren't going to change anything. And so that training, I think, is really important. I went through the training just like everyone on my staff and throughout state government did. And I think more workplaces should require it because it's just an honest assessment of who we are and it's how we grow. And I like to think most people want to do better, but we can't expect them to do better if they

don't know better. That's right. And it's another thing that you do that I like. And Governor Shapiro has a version of it in Pennsylvania, but it's the clean slate bill and the clean slate for kids that you signed. What is that about? I'll tell you one of the things, one of the days that, um, if you need more water, feel free. Oh, no, I'm good. I'm good. But one of the days that I think, um, it will live with me for the rest of my life was, you know, we, we changed the laws in Michigan so that people can get their records expunged. We made sure that people that were, you know, sentenced or did time for marijuana offenses don't have that on their record anymore. It's now legal in Michigan, so you shouldn't have to carry that with you. And so we had a huge expungement fair in Flint, actually. We're talking a lot about Flint today, but this was in Flint. And the

lieutenant governor and I were there. The secretary of state was helping people get registered to vote. There's a common misconception that if you have a record, you can't vote. Well, you sure as heck can. And we register people when they're leaving prison now to make sure that they are voting. And the attorney general was there so we can help people with paperwork to get all the records expunged. We had a thousand people show up before eight o'clock in the morning who were excited about this, giving them an opportunity to get into a better job because of this old thing on the record was keeping them from getting gainfully employed or get housing. And so we've made big strides. There's always more work to do. But our bail reform, you're not sitting in jail because you don't have some money in your pocket for a civil infraction. We've made a lot of great policy changes, and we've helped a lot of people get another opportunity, which is everyone deserves that.

Why aren't people going further on the marijuana thing? I read that you were considering pardoning a lot of non-violent marijuana offenders we saw what west moore just did you know in maryland when it comes to misdemeanor convictions weed is legal in michigan so it seems like a no-brainer to just pardon all non-violent marijuana offenders absolutely yeah it's it's a every state has a little different requirements to get it done so So Wes did a wonderful thing. I was really happy to see him use those powers. I don't have those kind of sweeping powers. So we've done it.

We've gone through and done it. So many cases we've been able to move through, but we can't do it en masse like that, unfortunately. So who has the power? It just depends on the state. Different states have different executive authorities and powers. I saw you say that governors are a competitive bunch. Yeah. And you talked about Governor Newsom in the book. What did you mean

by that? Because the reference, the example you used was something in regards to social distance. And I don't want to tell the whole story, but what did you mean y'all are competitive? Oh, no. I think governors are the best salespeople for their states. I got to see Jay Inslee talk about how great the state of Washington is. When I was running for governor, I thought, oh, yeah, this is going to be part of the job, is I'm going to be the promoter of all of Michigan for the world, right? So we are a competitive bunch. You know, in the book, I talk a little bit about, you know, some ways that, you know, we're all human, right? And when we make a mistake, we should own it. And I

was praising Gavin Newsom for owning a mistake that he'd made. I'd made a very similar one. And so that was an example. You know, I think Newsom is a phenomenal leader. I think we're really lucky that we got so many great Democratic leaders across this country right now. We talked a little bit about Wes Moore. I know you had Josh Shapiro in here recently. Hey, what's up? This is Ramses Jha. And I go by the name Q Ward. And we'd like you to join us each week for our show Civic Cipher. That's right. We're going to discuss social issues, especially those that affect black and brown people, but in a way that informs and empowers all people to hopefully create better allies. Think of it as a black show for non-black people. We discuss everything from prejudice to politics to police violence, and we try to give you the tools to create positive

change in your home, workplace, and social circle. Exactly. Whether you're black, Asian, white, Latinx, indigenous, LGBTQIA+, you name it. If you stand with us, then we stand with you. Let's discuss the stories and conduct the interviews that will help us create a more empathetic, accountable and equitable America. You are all our brothers and sisters, and we're inviting you to join us for Civic Cipher each and every Saturday with myself, Ramses Jha, Q Ward and some of the greatest minds in America. Listen to Civic Cipher every Saturday on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast or wherever you get your podcast. I love Governor Shapiro. He's fantastic. Maura Healey from Massachusetts.

I mean, we got leaders all across the state. Tim Walz from Minnesota. He swears even more than we do. So you should have him come in. But, you know, it's a really incredible bunch of people. And I've learned so much from my colleagues and we've helped one another. And I think there's a real great crop of leaders right now. Let me ask you a question. I know you're here to promote your book, but I wanted to ask you a question. A lot of people are not necessarily confident in Joe Biden right now. They don't know if they should go out and

vote at all. People are thinking right now, maybe it's the lesser of two evils. What do you say to those individuals that are not 1,000% confident in Biden, maybe think Biden is too old, maybe think that he doesn't have early signs of dementia? What do you say to those people? Well, I'll start with this. We all watched that debate, and it was bad. I mean, that's an understatement. It was really bad.

Horrible. And it shook a lot of people. And people are asking questions. And you know what? I don't have a problem with that. You should ask questions. You should demand that your leaders are up to the job. I believe that Joe Biden is.

And I tell you, I went to the White House with a number of my colleagues, Gavin and Josh included, and Wes as well. And we had a sit down with the president. There's no question in my mind that he's ready to take this on. I had a conversation with him and all of our co-chairs last weekend. Same thing. He's a fighter. He's ready to go. He had a bad night. He'll be the first to admit it. It was terrible. Yet here we are. We've got a choice between an affirmative vote for Joe Biden or anything else is a vote for Donald Trump. And a second Trump presidency will be devastating. A second Trump presidency will take us further down the line of taking away individual rights of, you know, a worse and more intolerant nation with bigger discrepancies in income.

I think that it's a dangerous prospect. Joe Biden wants to continue the work. He's made record investments in onshore manufacturing and the growth that we're seeing in our supply chains. We're stronger. We're getting stronger every day. That all can be undone. We've got a president who's going to fight for every one of us, black community, the brown community, women and our rights. I think that he's got a record of doing that and he's going to continue to do it for the next four years. And that's why I'm unwavering in my support of Joe Biden and Kamala Harris. I think that they are great leaders. We're fortunate to have them.

They've got the receipts and they've got a plan for the next four years. The other guy represents a real clear and present danger. You know, Chapter 4 is surround yourself with great people. Don't be afraid to ask for help. You know, when you think about the surrogates like yourself, the Westmores, Governor Shapiro's vice president, I rock with all of them, right? Is President Biden the kind of leader that will ask y'all for help?

Yes. And you know what? I think another thing to remember is during the Trump years, remember his cabinet? It was a bunch of cronies and crooks. These were people that were, you know, I think not experts in the fields in which they were hired. I can talk about the Department of Education because Betsy DeVos is from Michigan.

Biden, on the other hand, has got a diverse cabinet that is incredibly skilled that he leans on. You've got Gina Raimondo and Pete Buttigieg and Tom Vilsack. He's got Cedric Richmond, you know, very much a big part of his operation. And obviously the vice president, he surrounds himself with quality people who are doing the work and showing up and actually care about the American people. And I think that's a real fundamental difference here. So, yeah, he does listen. He asks questions.

He says, you know, give me some advice. And, you know, we've been pretty frank, had some pretty frank conversations about giving some input. Salute to Secretary Pete, too, because he comes to the breakfast all the time. And I often feel like y'all should be offended. And the reason I say y'all should be offended is because people will say, is this the best America has to offer? Is this the best the Democratic Party has to offer in Biden? And it does kind of like, you know, make yourself and the Westmores and the Shapiros and the Buttigieg and the VP look like, damn, they're all better to me than, you know, the current leader of the party.

Well, all these people you're going to, we're going to see do incredible things for the short term and the long term. So we're fortunate in that one. You know, I understand that sentiment. And, you know, I got kids, they're 22 and 20 and they're, you know, they're not as excited as I, you know, would love for them to be. And yet I know they're going to vote because they understand their rights to make their own decisions about their bodies, their ability to get housing after they graduate from college and try to get, you know, an affordable place to live. That is on their minds, their ability to, you know, live a long life in a climate that can sustain humanity, right? Gun violence. This generation has grown up doing mass shooting drills. We can't even appreciate what kind of trauma that's

inflicted on this generation. They are engaged in a way that we weren't. And so the fact that there may be don't, Joe Biden doesn't resonate as well with every one of, you know, every voter that's out there. I think that every voter can see a voice, a person that is a part of this effort that does, though. And I think that that kind of Avenger style campaign and leadership has got to be a part of how we go forward. I've been saying that I don't want it. I would rather see his surrogates out there. Do you want to see him debate again? Do you think he should debate again? I don't know. You know, it doesn't seem as though people go into debates with open minds these days. I do agree with you that, you know, having surrogates out there is powerful and incredibly

helpful. And I know, you know, a lot of my colleagues and standard bears for the party are going to be descending into Michigan. And I'm excited about that because I want people to see, you know, I want people to get to know, you know, all of, all of these leaders that are doing the work and that are a part of, of the work that president Biden has gotten done. I want them to hear from them too. But why lie to American people? And what I mean by that is like, you know, George Stephanopoulos just got caught saying he doesn't feel like he can serve another four years, President Biden.

So even if that is people's, you know, sentiment, why not say, hey, this is why you should still vote for him? Like, what is it? Why can't we have that conversation? Yeah, you know, I was not happy to see those comments, obviously. I disagree with George, and I have a great deal of respect for him, but I disagree with him. And I challenge anyone who is out there opining about someone's health. Oh, my Lord, we've spent two weeks litigating the 90 minutes, the bad 90 minutes of Joe Biden,

and not enough time litigating the four horrific years of Donald Trump. Let's be clear. This is a choice between two people. Yes, there are some third party candidates, but you vote for one of them. That is helping Donald Trump. And so anything short of an affirmative vote for Biden is a vote for Trump. And I think whether it's because you're appalled at that possibility or you're confident and have faith in President Biden and Kamala Harris, and let's be clear, that's why we have a team. In case one person can't do the job, you've got

a backup. That's what the vice presidency is all about. And she's incredibly capable. This is not the time to keep wringing our hands. We've got to roll up our sleeves because we've got a lot of work to do. Do you think people should challenge him at the convention coming up? Yes. I don't. I don't. I respect that there are different opinions, but I don't. I think

right now we know what the matchup is. He keeps asking for it. Last year he said there's about 50 other Democrats who could beat Trump. Last week he goes, hey, challenge me at the convention. He's asking for it. Last year, he said there's about 50 other Democrats who could beat Trump. Last week, he goes, you know, hey, he's asking for it. Well, I'm glad to see him show a little swagger,

frankly, but by the same token, you know, this isn't fantasy football. We are beyond the primaries, and we are beyond the caucuses. The matchup is set, and the only person that changes that matchup is Joe Biden. He's made his decision. He's communicated it. So let's go. You know, just talk about Michigan

because it's a huge battleground state. Over 100,000 primary voters cast uncommitted votes back in February because of the Biden administration's funding of the Israel military in the war on Palestine. Does that concern you about how Michigan will turn out in November? Yeah, of course it does. You know, the great story of Michigan is that we are the place people came to from around the world for opportunity. And because of that, we got a richly diverse population, right? People came from the South for a job on the line. People came from Lebanon for a job on the line. People came from Holland for a job in, you know, the muck fields on the west side of the state or from Finland for a job in mining in the Upper Peninsula. I mean, we're a

very diverse state and it's a great strength. It also is made up of communities, all of these communities that I've been able to count on as a part of the coalition that's always supported my candidacy for office. And I'm grateful for that. Everyone's hurting right now. That's the only universal truth. You know, our Jewish community is in pain. We've seen the rise of anti-Semitism, the horrors of October 7th, the hostages that still haven't been released, my Arab American and Muslim community and Palestinian community, and it's important to single them all out because it's not monolithic. They are different communities within one larger community. They're hurting because they see the loss of innocent lives every single day playing out. in Michigan that are one degree or two degrees of separation from someone who's lost their life

in this altercation or someone who's starving right now. And so I think one of the lessons in my book is about the power of listening. We've got to show up and listen. We've got to show people that we care. Staying close to my Arab American community, staying close with my Jewish community, it is really important. And recognizing the pain that everyone's feeling is as well. But I also want to be clear that a Donald Trump presidency sure as hell ain't going to fix what's going on in the Middle East. It could measurably make it worse. You hear some of the crazy things that he has said, some of what his supporters have said. You think we want a two-state solution where everyone can have a safe homeland? That's not something that he's promoting. And I think

it will make it measurably worse. And that's why I understand the pain and that people are feeling checked out and unheard. That's why the listening part is so important. That's why I say listening is a superpower in my book. And I think that's something that Biden does better than Trump does. He's an empathetic guy who actually cares about people. What would your message be to the Muslim Arab community in Michigan in regard to supporting President Biden come November? Because, you know, 50,000, you know, innocent people killed is it's's tough to see. Oh yeah. No, it's, it's, it's horrific. Women and children. Yeah. Men too. You know, I know everyone points to women and children, but there are a lot of innocent men who've lost

their lives too. I mean, it is horrific. And yet, um, if we want to have a, a leader of the free world who sees that, who cares about leading for a two-state solution, who's never going to campaign on like a Muslim ban or child separation at the border for brown families coming into this country, I mean, that's Joe Biden. There's no question who the better leader is on all of these issues, and it's Joe Biden. You know, Chapter 9, you talk about owning your screw-ups and forgiving others for theirs, and it's Joe Biden. You know, chapter nine, you talk about owning your screw-ups and forgiving others for theirs. And I read where you wanted

to actually meet with someone from the far-right militia that plotted to kidnap and assassinate you. Yeah. I don't know if my forgiveness works that way. Yeah, why?

That's a little crazy. I wouldn't want to have that conversation. Well, you know... What do you hope to gain? When I wrote that, I didn't know it would get such a strong reaction, but it has.

So you're in the majority. They're trying to kidnap you and kill you. What do you hope to gain? There were 12 to 14 guys who were out there planning for months to kidnap and then hold a sham trial and execute me. That was their plan. And they had a kill house. They went through all these exercises to practice that text messages are horrific. Fortunately, law enforcement,

you know, had infiltrated. They had an informer and they were able to keep it from happening. And I'm grateful for that. Did they tell you early on that this was happening? Did you know through the whole process or? Not through the whole process, but I knew a few months before it became public. The head of my security detail sat down with me. I talk a little bit about it in the book and shared it with me. And someone was giving me a hard time because they said, oh, the way you told your kids,

said, oh, by the way, there's a plot to kidnap and kill me, but it's okay, we're going to be fine. Like I said it like that, very, I don't know, practical or strange, but whatever. You know, I want to understand what happened. It is not a rational thing that you pick up guns and want to assassinate a sitting governor because she told you to wear a mask. That's not rational. That did not happen all over the country. It happened in this unique circumstances. Why? I would like to understand. So I'd love to, you know, have the chance to sit down maybe with one of the people that cooperated with the government

and testified against their fellow plotters. We call those snitches. Did their time. That's fine. Well, I'm grateful that there were a couple of snitches. That's right. You know, I'd like to just sit down and ask, you know, what was going on here?

And so I'm a human being. You know, I'm a normal person. I'm an ordinary person in an extraordinary job, serving in a crazy time. But I'd like to understand. And if I can learn something that will make me a better human or a better governor, then it's worth doing. Have you forgiven them yet?

Yeah. Really? Yeah. Wow. How does the forgiveness thing work in regards to like politicians? Like, can you can you forgive Trump for leading an attempted coup in this country? Can you give the Supreme Court for abolishing Roe v. Wade? Like that forgiveness work that way, too? Well, I think if if you own it. Yeah. I think if you say, you know, you have you have you regret, then yeah, I think it is, you can forgive.

But if you're fighting actively against it, though, I don't think... Well, he hasn't owned it. And he hasn't, you know, they're trying to spin it as though it was a harmless group of tourists. They're trying to spin it as though, you know, the people that were tearing down our capital and were, you know, are the reason that people, officers have lost their lives, were patriots doing this. That's what they're trying to tell us. Like, don't believe your lying eyes. You know, we, this was a peaceful group, baloney. And so I don't forgive that. I'm mad about that still, because that was a horrific thing to see. I sat there with my

daughters watching this play out in the United States Capitol, and everyone was so shocked. And I thought, if you're shocked, you weren't paying attention to what was going on in Michigan. We saw the early signs of this with people showing up with guns standing over our legislature and sitting outside my house with AR-15s threatening to kill me. I mean, this is a part of the rhetoric that Donald Trump has made so common and the reaction that is predictable because of what he's done. And he's shown no remorse for that, not even an understanding of how serious that was. And that's why I think you see so many people who used to call themselves Republicans are looking at him going, I can't do it.

But there still are a lot of people are going to support him. And I don't forgive him for that. Do you think it's because you're a woman? Because there are a lot of governors are going to support them. And I don't forgive him for that. Do you think it's because you're a woman? Because there are a lot of governors that said you have to wear a mask. There's a lot of people that came out and said that you have to wear a mask, but none of them I can recall had plots on their life for kidnapping and killing. Yeah. Well, you know, I was, I convened a group of governors during COVID to kind of share what we were

seeing, help one another when we could. It was the Midwest governors, Tim Walz from Minnesota, Tony Evers from Wisconsin, J.B. Pritzker from Illinois, Eric Holcomb from Indiana, Republican, Mike DeWine from Ohio, also Republican, and Andy Beshear from Kentucky, good friend and another great talent. All of them are. I think all the Democratic governors are fantastic. And we were chatting about, you know, everything that was playing out. And one of my colleagues said, you know, Gretchen, you're doing all the same things that we're doing. But why are you taking so much more heat for it? And when the last word landed, he said, oh, wait, don't answer that.

I know. It's because you are the woman doing it. And so I'm not the one who raises, OK, I'm dealing with this because I'm a woman. But I appreciate when someone else points it out, because I do think that there's that's a part of it. I don't want that woman telling me what to do. And, you know, we didn't have a black governor during the pandemic. I don't know the extra kind of heat that a black governor would have confronted, but I know that the women governors did deal with a whole higher intensity of hate that came our way. Oh, I agree with you because, you know, even when your name comes up as, you know, being a presidential candidate, you know, I always say, man, I think that this country in a lot of ways is more sexist than racist. I don't know if they would vote. As qualified as you are,

as dope as you are. We've seen it with Hillary, right? We've seen it with Hillary. That's my point. Like, I don't know if they would. It's the same reason that they're so afraid of Vice President Harris.

Like, when people, when you hear people say, oh, you should be scared of a, you know, President Harris, you know, you should be scared of a President Harris run. And I'm like, why?

What would, her policies wouldn't be any different than any other Democrat. So what would make them afraid other than her being a woman and a woman of color? I think you're making an important point.

I was kind of marveling watching the news this morning. Nikki Haley was taking a shot at Kamala Harris. It just really struck me that these are two women of Indian descent. She's saying things like Kamala Harris would be dangerous, you know, and it's just, it's galling to me to watch that play

out. I was hopeful, you know, I thought she was somewhat of a voice of reason in that primary, and yet, you know, she's just thrown her lot in and with the team that she was so critical of over the last year and a half and attacking kamala harris and i just i don't know it's just maybe that's why we haven't had a woman president yet because uh because you see stuff like that play out do you think you could be the first i don't have any plans to run for anything after this term as governor um it's it's uh certainly a compliment to be included in the list of people whose names come up all the time. But, you know, I got a big job right now. I got two and a half more years to be governor of Michigan. I got a lot more that I want to get accomplished. And I'm not thinking

about anything beyond that. You could write shock, shock, blood, motherfucker, shock, weak motherfucker on a paper and then, you know, you can go for it. Did you hear G. Matt Cash's song about you, Big Gritch? Oh, man, I love G-Mac Cash. He sent me an email yesterday. He said, good luck on GMA. I'm rooting for you, bestie. We're not best friends, but I like to think that we're very good friends. How did you feel when you heard the record and who put you onto it?

Okay, so first it started with the nickname Big Gretch. Big Gretch. Big Gretch. First of all, I'm named after my two grandmas, Gretchen and Esther. They're both in the book. But Grandma Gretchen always said, don't ever let anyone call you Gretch.

Your name is Gretchen. So I've always had an aversion to being called Gretch. I don't know many women that want big in the front of their nickname. Am I right? Big Gretch. Well, it depends. You know, if you're heavyset, we say you got a big back. But big can mean like position as well. Yeah. Like, yeah. Well, it depends. You know, if you heavyset, we say you got a big back. But big can mean like position as well.

Yeah. Well, it's it's all good now. But, you know, when I first heard the name Big Gretch, I'm like, oh, Lord, what what is happening here? And Shaquille O'Meara, someone on my on my team at the time from Detroit was like, oh, no, you don't understand. The people of Detroit have accepted you. Big Gretch is a compliment. It is given with love. And I was like, all right, tell me more. And then in Detroit, a symbol of success is buffs. So the Buffalo Cartier sunglasses. Buff glasses, yep. Yeah, so you got to have the buffs.

You ever been? I don't own buffs. I mean, I don't have that kind of money, and I don't trust myself with expensive sunglasses. But they present you with buffs. Like, they don't literally present you with buffs, but it's, you know, a saying. And so he was like, okay, I'm presented with buffs. What the hell are buffs, Shaquille?

So she's educating me. But then G-Mac made it into the rap song, and I just love it. I think Big Gretch has become this nickname I never knew that I needed. It was given to me. Trump was kicking my butt. He was making my life miserable. I was getting all sorts of threats and ugliness. And this happened at a time where I really appreciated the boost. And everywhere I go, especially in Detroit, I'm Big Gretch.

So Big Gretch, Gravity Gretch, which one do you like? Big Gretch is my favorite. Big Gretch has to go. Okay, I got one more question. Well, two, you could actually get the buff glasses now because the Supreme Court made it to where you can get bribes. You can have the money if you want. But why aren't people saying the Supreme Court

is no longer a legitimate institution? Why aren't folks calling them out for their corruption? I am. And I was glad to see Sheldon Whitehouse send a letter to Merrick Garland. I don't know if he's going to do anything about it, but I hope he does because I it is so depressing and sad to me. You know, I'm a lawyer. I was raised by, you know, two public servants who also were lawyers, though, and who revered the judicial system, that it was the check on government, that it was above the politics of the day.

We saw that over the years where decisions came out, even if you didn't agree with them, you respected them because they were grounded in some interpretation of the Constitution, not a political agenda. And yet, what we've seen now, Trump remade the Supreme Court. Three appointees who lied to Congress about Roe v. Wade and went on and just eviscerated women's reproductive freedom. That is on this ballot. A majority now who has said that a president has this vast immunity now that the law doesn't apply to the person who we elect as our president.

It is scary, and it is terribly frustrating to have all the presumptions I was raised to believe that you could count on that court thrown into the garbage in a dumpster. And it's a real problem. And I'm glad to see some folks in Congress are taking it seriously. But, man, we need a better mechanism to hold them accountable. Do you still think it's a legitimate institution, the Supreme Court? I think that they have bastardized it. I hate to say it.

You shouldn't. It's the truth. Yeah. I hate the fact of it. You know, we deserve better. And those justices took an oath. And man, it's just horrible to see that not even they're holding it up. So Biden needs to expand the courts, right? Well, I'm not going to tell the president what to do. But we do need a system that is actually accountable to the people and has to abide by a certain ethical standard and is reined in by the law

if you were president would you expand the Supreme Court? I haven't it's a good question I don't know that I've got a thoughtful answer for you yet the answer should be yes the answer is I ain't running for president, so there. All right.

Last question. When you see people from Michigan or Detroit, do you greet them with what up, doe? Yeah, absolutely. That's how we greet one another. What up, doe? You know, I got to tell you, Detroit hosted the NFL draft. Yep.

And man, it was the most fun event. Detroit's population has grown for the first time in 70 years. We had a record draft turnout. And then we had the Grand Prix the next week. And then the opening of Detroit, Michigan Central Station, the old train station that Bill Ford, you know, decided to plow a bunch of resources into. And now it's like this hub of R&D. And it's an exciting time.

We had, you know, Eminem produce a big party at the opening. I mean, there's so much good stuff happening in Detroit and all across Michigan. And so, yeah, what up, though, to the listeners from Detroit? Well, 42 Doug is here, so you'll be able to say that to him in a second. Excellent. You'll probably see him in the hallway. All right. Well, it's the Governor Gretchen Whitmer.

We appreciate you for joining us. Thank you so much. Governor of Michigan, a pleasure. Make sure you go get our new book, True Gretch. What I've learned about life, leadership and everything in between. And don't be a stranger. All right. We were on a lot of stations in Michigan. I know. I'll come back. Please do. All right. Thank you. It's the Breakfast Club. Good morning. Wake that ass up in the morning. The Breakfast Club. Hey, what's up? This is Ramses Jha.

And I go by the name Q Ward. And we'd like you to join us each week for our show Civic Cipher. That's right. We discuss social issues, especially those that affect black and brown people, but in a way that informs and empowers all people. We discuss everything from prejudice to politics to police violence, and we try to give you the tools to create positive change in your home, workplace, and social circle. We're going to learn how to become better allies to each other.

So join us each Saturday for Civic Cipher on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.