The Breakfast Club - INTERVIEW: Jada Pinkett Smith On Worthiness, Sacrifice, The Power Of Marriage, Combatting Rumors + More

Episode Date: November 16, 2023

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

As a kid, I really do remember having these dreams and visions, but you just don't know what is going to come for you. Alicia shares her wisdom on growth, gratitude, and the power of love. I forgive myself. It's okay. Have grace with yourself. You're trying your best. And you're going to figure out the rhythm of this thing.

Alicia Keys, like you've never heard her before. Listen to On Purpose with Jay Shetty on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Had enough of this country? Ever dreamt about starting your own? I planted the flag. This is mine. I own this.

It's surprisingly easy. 55 gallons of water, 500 pounds of concrete. Or maybe not. No country willingly gives up their territory. Oh, my God. What is that? Bullets. Listen to Escape from Zakistan.

That's Escape from Z-A-Q-istan on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, guys. I'm Kate Max. You might know me from my popular online series, The Running Interview Show, where I run with celebrities, athletes, entrepreneurs, and their stories, their journeys, and the thoughts that arise once we've hit the pavement together. Listen to Post Run High on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Hello, my undeadly darlings. It's Teresa, your resident ghost host. And do I have a treat for you. Haunting is crawling out from the shadows, and it's going to be devilishly good. We've got chills, thrills, and stories that'll make you wish the lights stayed on. So join me, won't you? Let's dive into the eerie unknown together. Sleep tight, if you can. Listen to Haunting on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, y'all. Niminy here. I'm the host of a brand new history

podcast for kids and families called Historical Records. Executive produced by Questlove, the Story Pirates, and John Glickman, Historical Records brings history to life through hip-hop. Flash, slam, another one gone. Bash, bam, another one gone. The crack of the bat and another one gone. The tip of the cap, there's another one gone. Each episode is about a different inspiring figure from history, like this one about Claudette Colvin,

a 15-year-old girl in Alabama who refused to give up her seat on the city bus nine whole months before Rosa Parks did the same thing. Check it. And it began with me. Did you know, did you know? I wouldn't give up my seat. Nine months before Rosa, it was Claudette Colvin. Get the kids in your life excited about history by tuning in to Historical Records.

Because in order to make history, you have to make some noise. Listen to Historical Records on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. The first of its kind basketball tournament is in full swing. And today, I partnered with DraftKingsings and they have so many ways to get you in on the action. All right. Right now, new customers who bet $5 can get bonus bets of $150 instantly.

Download the DraftKings Sportsbook app and use my promo code TBC. Let me know what teams you're riding with in the comments. That's right. New customers can bet just $5 on any wager and get $150 in bonus bets. So make sure you download the DraftKings Sportsbook app and use promo code TBC. Wake that ass up in the morning. The Breakfast Club.

Morning, everybody. It's DJ Envy, Charlemagne the guy. We are The Breakfast Club. We got a special guest in the building. Nah, this is special, special. Yes. Jada Pinkett Smith. Welcome.

Thank you, thank you, thank you. How you feeling this morning? I'm feeling good. You glowing. I'm feeling good. Thank you. Yeah. You know, life is good.

All right, all right, all right. Even in the chaos. Even in the chaos. I mean, life is chaos. That's what it is. Yeah, that's what it is. Yes. You know what I'm saying?

So you just get in harmony with that. That's interesting you say that that because I always be wondering, are we ever going to find peace on this planet or do we just exist within the chaos? The chaos is normal. Yeah, I think just in my journey, I've just been discovering that you kind of have to just rise above it because the world is going to be what it's going to be, right?

I actually think that the world is a university, you know, to teach us how to transcend it. Yeah. And so, yeah, you just, you got to make peace with what this world is about. But I don't think that this place is our sanctuary. I actually think, you know, ascending it and going into more of the spiritual places, you know, and just kind of understanding, living your life from there within the world. I mean, that's what they say, you know, be in it, but not of it.

You ever get tired of it, though? Because you've been on this tour for a while, and you're very big on energy and vibrations, and sometimes I'm sure the energy and vibrations have been all over the place, but it seems like you've been on tour for a long time. You ever get tired of it? Like, all right, now, enough's enough now. You know, I just, I think that if I put myself

in that frame of mind and I just bring myself a level of discomfort that's not necessary, right? You just go, it is what it is. So how are you going to step up to the moment? And that's it. That's just what it is. And so that's where I find my peace. Since the release of this book, what has your ego been telling you?

My ego? My ego has been telling me to let go you know because it takes a lot of courage to sit in your truth takes a lot of courage it takes a lot of courage to be happy so when you're walking through the world and you're dismantling ideas, you know, you kind of have to, in that dismantle, you just kind of have to let go of everything that you thought you were, everything that you're trying to be, and just flow, right? Just let whatever is presenting itself just kind of be what it is.

But you definitely got to let go. So it's been a real test in regards to trust. I just can't trust the ego in that way anymore. But that's a process. So as I'm dismantling, so you go from one ego state to the next, right? Absolutely. So it just gets smaller, I guess, you know. But the ego is always going to be there.

So, you know, you just kind of learn how to make friends with your ego and have it work for you in a different way for a different purpose. Right. So that's what I'm working with right now. Has this truth helped your relationship with friends, family and even your marriage? Has this truth and all the things that came out or did it make things worse oh no see I didn't I didn't step into this walk into my situation with my friends my family and specifically will was tight hmm right because I already knew how disruptive it was gonna be so I had to make sure that my inner circle was tight, right,

so that we could walk this together hand in hand, right? So it's actually, you know, specifically for Will and I, it's definitely brought us closer. It's so funny how crisis will do that. Absolutely. You know what I mean? Yeah, you know what I'm saying? So that's the thing about Will and I is just like we just learn more and more as we go that this is what we were built to do, you know, with each other, you know, and to walk together.

And, you know, just like any long-term relationship, it goes through its shit. Of course. You know? And so you got to take your time. I really had to grow emotionally. I hadn't realized how emotionally immature I was. You know what I'm saying? And so that's the thing about long-term relationships that are fantastic, if you can just hang in there because it's going to force you to step your game up if you want to be happy,

you know. And so Will's been one of my greatest teachers on my journey, you know, because I've been forced to have to deal with my stuff, you know. What stuff? Because you said you're immature. What immaturity do you see when you when you look at yourself well i would say you know about seven years ago just when you're just hanging on to these romantic ideas of what marriage should be what your partner should be

for you so that you don't have to be the thing for yourself. Like when you keep banging on somebody like, no, I need you to show up this way because I need to feel a certain way about myself. Right? That in itself is just like, hold up. You want somebody else to be something for you that you're not willing to be for yourself? First of all, how do you call that love?

You know? And I had to like step away to really realize that, you know? And so me get myself in alignment and just realizing like, yo, Jada, you got a lot of work to do. And then doing that work and then being able to present myself with more of

myself and then being able to see will as who he is and just accept him and love him there. That's what I think gets lost in the book if you haven't read the book. You think all the convos about Tupac and Will distracted from what this book really has to offer? Because I do. Yeah, and I knew that. I knew it was gonna be a lot of distractions, right?

And I was like, hopefully this book will have legs so that once all of the, you know, the chatter dies down, we can get to the real components of the book. Now, people who have actually read the book are on it. Right. They see that. It's a journey of healing. It's a journey of healing. It's a journey of somebody trying to find their worthiness, which is, you know, all of us have struggled with that. Imposter syndrome, not feeling worthy. If you read the book, you see somebody really laying it out in detail, the journey to get to that place of worthiness. And it's a universal struggle. You know, we all do it in different ways, right? But it's a universal struggle.

And so, yeah, I really wanted to lay that out in the way that I did, especially, once again, just dismantling these ideas of perfection, you know, because we also have these societal romantic ideas of what somebody in my position, what my life should look like, who I be within it you know what i'm saying and it's like no no no like real life is real life no matter what station you sit in that period you know do you regret leading with a lot of that stuff leading with a lot of the talk about will to talk about pop because you know those just became sound bites and headlines on the internet clips you regret meeting with that?

You know, it's so difficult because when you're dealing with media, that's what people want to attach to. People not interested. You know, that's not the clickbait, the journey part of it. The clickbait is, you know, the Tupac, the Will, you know, so you got to kind of get past the clickbait where people get exhausted with that and that dies down and then people can get with the real but it's hard to avoid it honestly it's hard to avoid it when did you get to a point where you knew that's what you needed right because we look at your life and we see the wedding we see the trips

we see all of that when did you realize and say I need to fix this because this isn't right with me what was that moment I would say that I got slammed up against a wall probably when I was really confronted with some really heavy suicidal thoughts. You know, when I was looking for cliffs to drive over, you know, so that my suicide would look like an accident, so my kids wouldn't think that I committed suicide. And I did a plant medicine journey. Ayahuasca. Ayahuasca. I can't wait. Let me know when. I got you. You know, it's like, and that was a real

awakening for me. You know, when I really had to be confronted with my own shadow my own self-hatred and it was so strong and it was so scary I was like whoa I didn't I thought it was I didn't even want to be with that and I'm like asking somebody else to contend with that that was the first moment that I realized oh jada you you got some stuff to deal with and what got you to that point because most people would look on the outside and be like you know she's rich she's a movie star she's dating another movie star she has beautiful kids your mom is still there like it looks like to the outside the life is perfect so what in that perfect life on the outside made you feel imperfect or made you not feel like this is what I want?

It was like dealing with the foundational wounds. Right. I hadn't done I hadn't dealt with. And that's what we most of us don't even know what our foundational wounds are. We don't even know we're foundationally wounded. Right. And so it started in childhood you know you got two parents who are addicts and you are not the priority right and then just the the the levels and just

the the trauma that gets built upon what that environment is like right and you're i thought I thought that making it would heal it all. You know, success takes care of everything, right? And then it was like, okay, made it to Hollywood. That's not it. And then I met this fantastic guy, and I was on this whirlwind of romance with Will, and I was like, he's going to fix it. You know what I'm saying?

He is the knight in shining armor. The savior prince. Romance with Will. And I was like, he's going to fix it. You know what I'm saying? He's going to. He is the knight in shining armor. The savior prince. He's the savior prince. He's going to fix it. So it went from one false belief to the next. And I talk about trying to check all the boxes. It's like, checked all the fucking boxes.

What is left? Right? And then having to realize, oh, man. Oh, yeah. You're not dealing with your stuff. That's what's left? Right? And then having to realize, oh, man, oh, yeah, you're not dealing with your stuff. That's what's left. So it just goes to show that we can have all of these exterior things, you know, but that's not the thing that's going to heal the soul. You know, when I read your book, it makes me think all of that,

and it makes me think of the quote, your happiness is your responsibility. If you expect others to make you happy, you will always be disappointed. Do you agree? Absolutely. People can assist in your happiness, but they can't make you happy. And I think a lot of times that we get caught up in those romantic ideas that other things, other people's circumstances can make us happy. And it just doesn't work that way.

They can add to our happiness. You know, we have a foundational place within ourselves that can give us that happiness. You know, it's interesting because, you know because when we used to watch Red Table Talk, people would be like, who is Jada Pinkett? Yeah, take off the drug dealer coat, Jada. Is that a drug dealer coat? I'm giving drug dealer energy.

Am I giving you drug dealer energy? When I read that in the book, I was like, Jada Pinkett Smith was in the streets like that. But when you walked in, I'm like, oh, I see it. I see the little kingpin.

Oh, snap. I'm sorry about that. A little 5 and 10. Yeah, I'm just trying to be comfortable. You know what I'm saying? You see how you do kingpin on your end? Yeah, I do. I see it.

I see it. Sorry about that. But when people used to watch Red Table Talk, they used to be like, why is Jada Pinkett Smith an expert at anything? But in the book, you refer to yourself as, you say you're a pseudo guru. Guru, yeah.

You said, oh, it's in the Feeling the the rain chapter that you seem to often set yourself up to fall off the edge of high and mighty them yeah but you admit at the time you didn't know shit like why talk to yourself like that well because it's the truth hey you know and i think that when we're in, when we're really on that game of healing, like the person that you got to be the most honest with is yourself. Right. And a lot of times that could be the most difficult when you really got to look at yourself and realize, you know, you thought you were something and now you realize that you ain't, you know, where you thought you were something and now you realize that you ain't, you know. And so, yeah, you just got to learn how to be deeply honest with yourself. And as I talk to myself that way, I can also hug myself in saying that, you know.

Can you talk to us about the gardening lessons you learned from your grandmother? Because I thought that was great. Yeah, I mean mean just the the cultivation of love you know and how you can take things that are seemingly you know you could take fish heads and apple peels you know stuff that seems like trash and put it in the ground and fertilize the ground right and really beautiful things will grow well that's life too you know we can take experiences that people might feel as though are unsavory or whatever right but it is those things that if we use it to nourish you know those spaces of our hearts spaces of our souls um they can be put to good use you know to make really beautiful

things grow now you talk about love so much and you talk about how you felt at one time uh you were against marriage right yeah uh is that because you've seen your parents and in their relationship that was and what changed your mind yeah i think I think that was really like I got to see my grandparents, who both said to grandparents had a really long-lasting marriage. But I wasn't quite sure that it was the pinnacle of happiness, right? And so, you know, when you're young, you're a free spirit a free spirit and i'm just like no i can do this different like because i i want to be happy i'm not quite sure that's what happy is like how can i be in a relationship and be happy you know i was all about the devotion right? And it wasn't until maybe,

gotta be honest, like maybe three years ago. Three years ago? You've been married all this time and it wasn't until three years ago? There you go, another headline. There you go. There you go. All this time.

Jada Pinkett Smith said, see you wasn't happy until three years ago. No, no, no. No, not that I wasn't happy. Okay. Not that I wasn't happy. But I got to see the power of marriage. Three years ago. I got to see the power.

You mean like the vows? Like the left to a part, sickness in the heart? Not even. Well, yeah and no right i got to see how marriage is a it is a holy path for real right just in regards to learning about love because it takes a long time to break down all the different false beliefs that we have about love, right? And the thing about a holy matrimony,

and it's not to say that you're not going to go through some unholy stuff, right? But when two people are committed and just refuse to quit, what you can learn about yourself about your partner and about love in general you can't really learn by going from one relationship to the next looking for the honeymoon stage over and over again right specifically if you're interested in learning about unconditional love, you know. And so I was like, oh, snap. This is what it's about.

You know, so what's in place three years ago? What was that moment three years ago? would probably say when Will going through the process of emancipation and then once he finished emancipation and the stuff that started coming up for him right and that's when he was like hey can we get back into some therapy together and the stuff that was coming up for him and the kind of conversations we were starting to have I was like okay here we are you know what I? I'm like, and everybody starts their journeys in different ways at different times. You know what I'm saying? But that's when I knew.

I was like, okay. And then we went to the Oscars, and that whole thing happened. And it wasn't, I didn't even think twice about it when I saw what was happening. And I was like, I'm not leaving this man's side. I'm not leaving this man's side. I'm not leaving this man's side. Do you think up until the point of three years ago,

do you think y'all had just more of a trauma bond? I would say yes and no. I would say we had a trauma bond and then underneath of it there was this real deep friendship this spiritual bond too because you can start breaking through your trauma and start talking through your trauma and if it's just a trauma bond once you start to heal and you start going your separate ways, it's done if it's just a trauma bond. Right? But when you can feel that spiritual bind, once you're doing the healing

and that spiritual bind is just yoking you tighter, then you know it's something else. And you really have to have the discernment to know the difference you know what i'm saying because sometimes you do just have a trauma bond with somebody and sometimes you just got to get away you know what i'm saying and so you you you gotta really like sit with yourself and have the discernment to know the difference now that's real because sometimes you heal so much you'd be like man you look around like i don't like nobody that's real talk yeah straight up because that's what we do you know it's like and that's part of it too you know and that's part of why we have to have the courage because

innately you know once you start healing a whole lot is going to change that's right what were your thoughts on on people right and the reason i ask is you know one time well he still is but will smith was america's sweetheart right from the music industry to the movies everybody loved will but after the oscars it seems like the world and even friends i've seen y'all just changed and switched so what was going through your mind frame there and how did you deal with that? Yeah, you know, so going back to these ideas of romanticism, right, when we talk about those societal romanticisms, you want to believe that there's a reality in regards to perfection, you know, that there is a place of perfection in this world right um and so i i really understood like that dynamic because i went through that personally within myself

dealing with having to look at um the imperfect parts of myself and not liking it and really being very disappointed, having to really look at the imperfections of my relationship and not liking that and being really disappointed in fighting against wanting to believe that the romantic idea of marriage and life did not exist. So I completely understood when masses were just like upset, you know, that what they believed was not true. You know, there's no such thing as that. It doesn't mean that there's not beauty there, you know there's no there's there's no such thing as that it doesn't mean that there's not beauty there you know but expecting someone to uphold this level of perfectionism you know and and I understood and so you have to

allow people to go through their process just like how I had to go through my process you know to get to the other side of that. But the real deal is that Will is all of those things. We all are. Yeah, you know, he's as beautiful as people believed him to be, but yet he also has, you know, his stuff too, like we all do. You know, but it doesn't make him any less of the beauty that, you know, he always wants to offer and the laughter.

You say in the book that you and Will had pictures in your mind of what a happily married couple was, but your pictures didn't match. Match. Do they ever and do they now? Well, they do. You can get to a place. So when you start to break down and dismantle all of your false beliefs and you start to pare it all down to truth and you two can look at each other, you know, in the darkness of the cave and in the brightness of the sunshine and accept it all and everything in between yes you know that's when you start to to be able to have more compassion for one another more respect for one another, more respect for one another, more consideration for one another versus this power struggle of like, no, my way is the right way.

You should see it my way. You know, no, no, no, my way is the right way. You know, all of that that we all go through. And you start to see, oh, man, there's this yin and yang balance that needs to happen. Both ways are right, right? so how do we integrate them yeah because it's like the intention and goal is what should matter the most right absolutely our intention is to have a happy marriage our goal is to have a happy marriage so it doesn't matter what you think about getting to that happiness or what

he thinks as long as y'all both are trying to be happy that's it right but you have to you gotta break down the egos you know two individuals to you have got to break down the egos you know two individuals have to be willing to break down the egos and because when the ego's in place there's no room for love so if you really want to learn how to love you got to be willing to let go of that ego absolutely one one thing i love about the book is is the title worthy because you know for anybody who's ever dealt with imposter syndrome, who struggled to get to a place of worthy, that title stands out. So what is worthy to Jada Pinkett Smith? You know, worthy is when you can really be 10 toes down on your self-love.

When you can be your own individual in regards to like you wake up in the morning by yourself you look in the mirror and you are enough now i know that's cliche because i used i used to hate hearing that stuff too like uh you know you're enough and self-love and all of that but at the end of the day that's what's real you know it's like when you know that you're enough, when you know when you're in the deep, darkest places, you know, of despair, and you're able to bring yourself up out of there because of how you're loving on yourself. And you don't need your husband, your wife, your kids, your best friend. You don't need nothing. That's when you know that's how you build your self-worth. And so that's what it means to me, you know, in having a really strong presence of self-love.

And then you can share that with others. You understand that you are worthy, that you are a gift, that you can share that instead of looking for somebody to give you you know something give you their treasures so you can feel worthy i always want to know what the what the oscar situation did that save your marriage and the reason i asked that is you know i've been married 22 years charlamagne's been married a long time. But in a household, especially a marriage, right? Your wife will always be mad at you, right? But you can't be mad at him. I could be mad at him.

I'm not going to let you tear him down. I could tear him down in the house. So did that save your marriage? I would say what it definitely did is that it accelerated what I think was already in the process. Right. It was in that moment that I knew I was like, oh, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. We going to do this together. I'm going to be by your side.

And I know that I'll never I'll never leave your side right because it's funny because an emotional crisis I didn't blink I didn't blink and that's when I knew deep down inside I'm like know what I'm saying it's like and you there's no getting away from him you've been trying you don't really you don't want to go nowhere stop it and so it was that incident that I knew

right away I knew right away I was like yo we in it you know and so that was it but I think that was the trajectory anyway

it just in an instant solidified it got you yeah you know if y'all if y'all have been separated all of these years

if you read the book you realize that right and Will never said anything about it why did you feel now was the time to reveal that information was it just to sell books like some people think no it's part of the process you know it was part of like part of my

self-worth journey like I had to really I was leaning on Will in a lot of ways and I think for women specifically how a lot of times our relationships um are used to identify us you know what I mean and so I thought that was a really important process and so much, a really important thing to talk about because so much of my journey happened in that time when it was just me. That's right. And I think that, and I also wanted people to realize that sometimes marriages go through breaks like that. And for people out there who are thinking about, yo, should I just get separated? Should I get a divorce? I'm like, man, just take time for you have the courage if you got the courage to sign divorce papers or you know go to lawyers and get just have the courage to figure out how to just take time for you and then see see see what's showing up for you right because sometimes divorce is the answer sometimes legal

separation is the answer but first and foremost just take a year take a year see what shows up you know before you start going into like all these other processes because sometimes we can act so quickly out of anger and frustration and we just want to get away and we think that's the answer you know and in some cases it is but in some cases it's not how did you feel when you talk about the truth right and you say a big reason of this book is you can help other people other marriage other couples that are dealing with it and don't know how to express it because they've never seen it right and the press and the public says you know jada is embarrassing well and you just said you were doing it because you wanted to live in your truth. So what do you say to those people that thought that it was just embarrassing,

embarrassing Will and dehumanizing him and take it as masculine? I want to quote Anna Navarro of The View. She said you are emasculating and embarrassing Will. Oh, well, I think if she took time to read the book, you know, I think that if you want to try to kind of, if you want to just read headlines, you know, I could see how that could be confusing, right? But the book is right here. You got two books you can read, actually.

You can read my book and Will's book, which is so great that a lot of people are doing that. But people have the right to their opinions. And I always know that anybody who's saying that hasn't really done their homework. But you got gotta expect it too because of what the headlines are, what click bait is. So Will knows what it is, I know what it is,

my kids know what it is, and more importantly, Great Supreme does too. And so that's really all I'm concerned with at the end of the day. Do you keep a checklist of some of those people that or you just let it go? I let it go. Yeah, I let it go. It's like because let me tell you, I've been there. You know, I've been there. It's like I'm not going to sit up here and act like I haven't. You know, I've been there. That's like thinking I know based on headlines, thinking I know based on whatever. You know what I'm saying?

So I have no judgment because I've been there. I want to ask you something about the headline thing, but you made me think of something because when you brought up Will's book, do you think I know 90s Hollywood was fantastic. It's one of my favorite areas. I love every black king and queen from that era. But do you think 90s Hollywood helped or hurt y'all as people? Because y'all had to keep up such an image. Everything was an image. Everything was curated.

I remember Will saying you couldn't even curse because of who he was. So y'all weren't really allowed to be your human selves. Yeah, we definitely weren't. We weren't allowed to be our human selves. And not only that, you know, it was like blackness was accepted on screen. But off screen, the more black you were, the more isolated you were going to be in regards to your opportunities in Hollywood. Right. And so I do believe that that era in that way, you know, and not even just us as, you know, the black community within Hollywood, but Hollywood in itself. Because you're meant to live up to this ideal that is not really realistic at all, you know.

And so, you know, it can be challenging in that way. Did y'all have problems from other black people? Because when you think about it, you and Will had a different level of success than a lot of your black peers. So even like you said, you was catching hell from the white folks. Did you black folks, black people start giving you hell too? You know, we weren't I wouldn't say that we were catching hell from from anybody. Right. It was just it's just the criteria of Hollywood right and um you know I I don't catching hell versus like what is simmering beneath you know because then you got the

jealousy and you got that you know the envious um but that's all part of it as well I don't think that's unique when Will was up here, he talked about being insecure a little bit about Tupac. Did y'all ever have that conversation? Because as a man, when you're a little insecure, I almost feel like you play both sides. You want to be yourself, but you want to show that you're better than the person that's making him insecure. You're tougher than or smarter than or more romantic than or a poet than, a better rapper than. Did y'all ever have that conversation? I wouldn't say that we had conversations in that way.

It was just like, you know, we came up in an era where it was so unusual for a man and a woman to be friends. Right. I mean, really think about it. Like, that's more of an open idea now. Right? But just think, in our era, that was just like friends. They had to be dating. Yeah. Like, what, what, what?

Right? And so I think for him, it was just like getting your mind around around that you know and that the kind of friendship that we had because we had such a you know tight friendship that you know was very impactful on my life you know so I think it was just getting the understanding around you know that Tupac and I could be friends, you know, and that he was a part of my life in that way. And so just we had a lot of conversations around just those ideas. How did he get over that?

I think he just realized that, and I really can't speak for Will, you should probably ask him when he comes back, but I think he just realized that that's what it was. You know what I mean? It was like, that's what it was. It's like, you know, that was that beautiful friendship. And I think once he started, as he got older, started having his own friendships with women like oh that that is possible how are you with that i'm listen i always told will you need some female friends did you yes because i think i think i think men and women i think men do need female friends because and women need male friends and i actually think men once they have daughters i got four i got four and you got four daughters and majority female there you go but i see i would now let me ask you a question would you say that having daughters helped you understand absolutely and see i think

that's what happened to will i think once willow came you know and then he started to realize a different relationship with the feminine right and then he realized oh wow you know you can have relationships with women that are non-sexual or however y'all have to you, manage that in your own minds. Right. But I think once Willow came, she was his teacher on that for sure. And so he was able to have female friends. I want to ask you about some of your male friends. What man do you think had more of an impact on your early life? Chet or Pop? Oh, man, they both did in different ways. They both did in different ways.

They both did in different ways. Yeah. I mean, Chet taught me a whole lot. That was your plug, right? That was my dude, you know. Chet put me on in a big way, you know. And through him, I learned a lot even lessons that I keep till this day just like just being on the low just you know what I'm saying and and then Pac you know Pac taught me

about black power you know and so many other things but yeah they both taught me so much in different ways where's Chet now chad is in la okay okay yeah chad is in la i brought him out to la um i heard i heard he works for you he works with me yeah that's crazy yeah once he once he got out you read the book you understand the plug works for you now well um he doesn't he works with me. Once he got out, because he did 10 years. He was supposed to do 12. He did 10. And he just wanted to change his life.

That's right. And I said, I got you. Come on out. And so that's where he's been. You know how many people would completely turn their back on that part of their life? Oh, yeah, no, never. And wouldn't even look out for those individuals no more?

No, like Chet, nah. Like he was, he looked out for me in so many ways, you know. And so I couldn't do that. There's no way. And, you know, he's got his hefe lifestyle situation happening. You know, he's building his own, you know what I'm saying, his own situation. But, you know, that's my dude.

Like, we've been through too much together. Yeah. And you talk about in the Living the Dream chapter how you and Pac used to argue about the ways black men justified mistreating black women. You had the epiphany that you and Pac were arguing about the right to feel loved. Yeah. Could you expand on that? Yeah, it was like and so this was during a time when. when we were both in Hollywood and just trying to figure out like how is it that we're here and just we both felt like once we made it we're gonna be straight but when it came to you know just relationships and just like you know I would get on him about

certain lyrics in his music and so we were in this power struggle about how black men should be treated how black women should be treated so I was coming from this position of my overall feeling of lack of self-worth. Pac was coming from a position of his overall feeling of not feeling respected, validated through, you know, the feminine and me through the masculine. And it was, you know, on this broad conversation, but at the end of the day, it had everything to do with how we felt about ourselves, you know, in our intimate lives when it came to men and when, you know, and for him when it came to women and how it was being expressed in this debate around cultural representation. You know what I'm saying? But at the end of the day, we were really talking about ourselves.

You just want to be loved. I just want to be loved. I just want to be loved, you know? I wish we could lead with that. I think back, you know, y'all probably didn't have the language back then. Yeah. So it's like now in a marriage,

you can say, I just want us to be happy. Right. You can say, I just want to be loved. Loved. So we can, let's focus on that. Right. Yeah. How do we just learn how to love each other and I think what one of the

biggest lessons that I'm learning is that we're in the game of relating of learning how to love like expecting that people show up knowing how to do that is really a false idea hmm right it's like we're learning how to love each other so not only are we learning how to love each other in our homes but even in the world you know it's like and the people who choose to lead with love or choose to be willing to learn how to love cool and they're gonna be people that that that's that they don't want to. They're too afraid to.

So they're going to lead with negativity. And thinking that that's what gives them power and thinking that's what keeps them safe. That's okay, too. You know, it's like this world is made of all things, so many things, and you just got to learn to accept it all. Well, we do. One thing about marriage, we have to make sacrifices, right, for each other.

Do you feel like your career would be a lot bigger if you didn't make a lot of the sacrifice? I remember in Will's book, he talked about that you made a lot of sacrifices for his career. And there's a lot of things I'm sure that you passed up that you didn't do because you were supporting him and taking care of home. Do you feel like you would be way bigger as an actress if you didn't make those sacrifices you know i think that for me that was never my goal and he used to ask me all the time he's like why don't you want to be the biggest you know actress in the world i'm like i don't want to thank god i didn't because you can't you know you know you can't have a family and two people trying to you know i wanted to have a loving, tight-knit family.

I wanted to create the family that I never had. That was my goal. You know what I'm saying? And so at the end of the day, anything that I gave up, sure, it was sacrifice for Will, but it was sacrifice for my family. And I got the family I always wanted to have. So I would say it was a sacred sacrifice it was really sacred you know because I feel like in order to have

some things that you really want that's what it takes you know and so I have no regrets on that well you have an envious of world success success? Hell no. No. I at times wished that that might not have been the focus all the time, you know, but one thing I always admired about him was his drive. You know, it's one of the things I love about Will, you know, and so I was always cheering that on, but I never really wanted that i'm not built like that because there was one part of the book when uh you you were pitching a movie i forgot what the movie was and the producer was like only if will ep it yeah chose not to do it and i was like well that's strange because they ended up having a production company together anyway

absolutely but at that particular point of time being young and feeling like I didn't want anybody to feel that that was how to get to Will was through me. So if you let one person come in that makes that request and you say yes, that's going to open up the floodgates for everybody to think, oh, all you got to do is get with Jada and then Will's coming. You know, and now anytime Will and I decided in our home that we were building a project together that we wanted to do together. That was our choice no no outside forces were going to come in and tell me you're not willing to work with me unless you have will you don't have that power you don't have that choice will and i decide that so that's why how did the kids deal with everything that the ups and downs in your

relationship especially being so public right because I remember when Willow released the single With My Hair, right? And we didn't hear anything after that because it almost felt like that wasn't her. Like she did that for something else. And then when she came back out, it was totally different than the child With My Hair back and forth.

So how did the kids deal with everything and being in that limelight? You know, I talk a little bit about Willow's journey in the book because we had, we were on a parallel line. I mean, when she was 11, she was telling jokers, no, right? Strong with it too, just like, no. And I was kind of like, no. And I realized like, yo, J.D., you got to get your no back.

Willow was teaching me how to get my no back. You know what I'm saying and so it's funny because they've had their challenges for sure but it's they don't really get caught up in the the Will and I stuff like even like when it was so much stuff going on we're not even on young people's timeline. You know what I'm saying? They like, I don't know what the hell's going on. Cool, I'm straight. I'm worried about this next single I'm about to put out

and this video, mom, all is well, you know? And as far as their own fame and dealing with their own stuff, they've really have had to learn how to navigate that. And I think part of that is just having come up in the social media world. followers young people have to figure out how to navigate having all of these outside voices on their pages saying whatever they need to say and I think that's just part of that generational kind of navigation that all all young people have to figure out and work through and they've done a really good job with it we don't know that yet we don't know what they well that's true yeah I was talking about handle the willow and Jaden oh yeah they've done a

pretty good job but you're right we don't know what the social impact is gonna be you're right how have your kids contributed to your journey of worthiness? I would say they were, I won't say the first, but having my kids love me as hard as they do unconditionally has just been so beautiful because not only do they love me and embrace me as their mother, but just as a woman on her journey. You know what I mean? And throughout my life with them, like Jaden was the one that if I, when I was in that crisis, now he didn't know i was in crisis but jayden just happened to come into the kitchen and go moises and mateo out here talking about their dad who just did a this freaking plant called ayahuasca you got to come hear this and if people would have read the book they wouldn't

have said jayden introduced yeah jayda ayahuasca yeah it made it seem like he had it in the backyard i was like mom try this that's what it is that like, mom, try this. That's what it did. It sounds like with the headlines. Yeah, no, that's what I'm saying. It's like his friend's father had done it, and they were explaining it to Jaden. And then I talked to their dad, you know, who I had known for a moment. And he came in, and, you know, he was like this new guy. And I was like, yo, I need that. And then within a month, there was a ceremony in Ojai. And I was there, and I got my own healing, you know.

But it just goes to show you how the universe works, you know. And so, and then Trey, my goodness. My love for him brought me close to his mom so that he could have, she and I, I mean, and Cherie has been such a great teacher for me. Enrica, she was probably one of the first relationships where I had to really work on my ego. What do you mean? where I had to really work on my ego. What do you mean? Meaning like all this insecurities,

all of the like, you know, competitive envy, jealousy, you know, of like, nah, nah, this is mine. You know what I mean? And like, no, it's actually not. You you know it's like there's a Trey that's his mother and if you're gonna love Trey you're gonna have to learn to love her and you're gonna have to learn to embrace her as family and her family in order to make a family for Trey so I had to let go of all my stuff And what a ride that was. You know, like for real, for real. And so that was like one of my first.

They would always talk about how Will would go on vacation with just her. Well, not just her. It wasn't just her? No, no, not like that. It would be like, so for instance, when he did his book tour and he went to London. So it was his mom and his sisters and I think Trey went and Cherie. You know what I mean? So they'll take trips and I'm not there.

You know, it's not to say I'll just be the two of them. Got you. You know what I'm saying? But, you know, she's family. So she's invited everywhere. so even before y'all was separated you you never had no insecurities about that wouldn't that would happen no no uh-uh it's very clear with the two of them there is nothing going on like you know what i'm saying and sometimes you know i mean they've been married so they've gone through that process

of all that so ain't nothing most women would ask how did you get over that because how do you get over the ex-wife or the the ex-girl or the baby mama like how did you get how did you say you know what i'm gonna let this go i'm not gonna let my ego we're not gonna see who the flies is thank you anymore we're not gonna see who cooks the best jerk chicken. Like, we're not going to go through that anymore. She's going to out-cook me every time. I'm going to just put that on the table. But, yeah, I mean, because, you know, there's Cherie. There's also Tiana, who's his ex, who, you know, is still in the circle as well. What the ex got to do?

Why the ex in the circle? Well, because Scotty, his husband, her husband works with Will. Got you. Yeah. And I mean, that's just like, you know, she was an important part of his journey as well. And you got to respect that. You got to respect that. You know, it's like, and there's no like all of this kind of like idea of competitiveness versus this like, if you love, I love the man that Will is, I'm going to respect all of the pieces that got him there.

Right. It wasn't me just coming into his life that, you know, is like he had a whole history before I came. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. So did I. So I'm like, if if I need you to respect my friendship. With Pac and what he meant to me, I got to respect those pieces of your life that helped you become who you are. That's different. That's a different level of healing jada i mean whoo you know that's just that that to me is is is is where it's at yeah you know that's where it's at i think it's easy to understand if you can if everybody can just understand that men and women can can just be friends especially look the easy part is i'm not saying there's some new john coming in. That's different.

See the Baltimore just come out on it right there? That was Philly. That was Philly. You know what I'm saying? That's a different thing. So when you're talking about people that he already went through a process with, been in a relationship with, you know what I'm saying? That particular stage of that get down is done and over with.

So there's a friendship left there in the uh the no soccer mom chapter right you shoot down every rumor there's ever been about y'all that y'all are swingers that y'all were both gay and playing each other's beers that y'all were sleeping with whomever you choose yeah how does it feel in 2023 to still have those same rumors out about people you love like will and duanene. I know. That just came out too recently. Yeah you know and let me just say this it's ridiculous

right and it's nonsense and this is a person that tried a shakedown a money shakedown that didn't work we're going to take legal action. Because it's one thing to have your opinion about somebody versus just making up salacious, malicious stories.

So that's actionable. So we're going to roll with that. But, yeah, I, you know. Say, leave it alone. Don go yeah oh no no nobody said anything it's um you know so for me unfortunately it's part of it you know what I mean it's not true we gonna take care of it and that's that how. So there was a money shakedown prior? Oh, yeah. There was a money shakedown. Oh, he tried to extort you before? Well, it's based around this person's idea that they, in some way, were doing business around Will's book and that they spent money

or what have you and that they needed to be compensated. So he already tried to do this money shakedown will was willing to give him a certain amount or what have you and he didn't take it so this whole situation is based on that give him a certain amount why though just well because of some business that they had and I don't know the complete details about it but that's about to come out because like I told you, about to take legal action. You should. Yeah, no, we are for sure.

I was asking how's Will dealing with it? Oh. Does he laugh it off? We saw his breath release a statement. Will, here's one good thing about Will. Will's always gonna find the funny. I figured that. Yeah, he's always gonna find the funny.

You know what i'm saying and so y'all laughed at the the murder murder kill kill we yeah you you have to you have to because it's absolutely ridiculous you know what i'm saying and so all you have is is you just gotta laugh about it you know and it's unfortunate because did he ask you like do i look like i give off bottom energy he was like do you believe this shit you know but we just laughed about it gotta ask about uh tyrese that there was a rumor that tyrese called you and said yes because he said he called you on the phone he was he was he was on meds he was he was out of it yeah and he told you um i ain't no killer. Jada, I ain't no killer, but don't push me.

Oh. Revenge is like the sweetest joy next to getting pushed. You don't know why he's out. Is that true? So Tyrese did call me for sure. And he was definitely in a state. And I was really concerned. And I'm just happy.

Did he quote Tupac though? He said he quoted, him and Charlie Mack said he quoted Tupac. He called Tupac? No, he said he called you and quoted Tupac. He may have, let me tell you something. I was so worried at that time when he made that call about his state because it was really deeply concerning. That I couldn't even tell you exactly what happened

because I'm trying to think about who I can get there, who can I get in the house, how can I get him help. Yeah, and so I was in, How can I get him help? Yeah. And so I was in, I was a little panicked, you know, to just make sure that he was okay and that nothing was going to happen. He wasn't going to hurt himself or anybody else. So I couldn't even, I don't even remember. What he said.

What he said. I want to talk about the book and the debate I had at dinner a couple weeks ago with some friends. Because in the book you say that you and Will decided to separate in every way except legally. Yeah. And y'all would have complete transparency, no secrets about what y'all were doing and whom y'all were doing it with. Right. And the debate we were having was, well, earlier in the book she said that they've never been in an open relationship but isn't that an open relationship well here's the difference between that that's when you're you're in an open relationship and you are still intimate with each other right at that point we went our separate ways so it's as if we are divorced separated and just trying to

figure out how we're going to go about it but at that particular point in time we were no longer relating in that way right um because for us it was over it was done so if you're in an open relationship that means that you are still in a relationship with one another romantically and you are okay with being with other people romantically like y'all were separated we were separated like done done done done done why did you choose not to say august's name in the book really just to i felt like he's been through enough you know what i mean and i just wanted to be respectful in that manner i really did do you feel like that's something that you need to heal like that situation um i'm hoping at some point

you know i'm definitely hoping at some point for sure yeah i wanted to ask you too if you pick a crew to run with in real life would you choose between the cast of set it off for the cast of girls set it off oh that's a hard one damn charlamagne that's a hard one set it off. Oh, that's a hard one. Damn, Charlamagne, that's a hard one. Set it off. They was riders. They were riders for sure. But, you know, both crews, they got something real special.

Yeah. I'm going to plead the fifth on that one. Plead the fifth. I only got two more questions. When you're having these conversations now, how do you know, in your words, that this isn't the pseudo guru using rationale and borrowed wisdom to tell you what you want to hear? Because it sits so beautifully in my heart.

Now, what I will say about that is that's why you gotta always stay open because as we continue to grow and learn, you know, as Bruce Lee said it best, be like water. Water.

You know what I mean? Because that's where I'm sitting right now. Who knows when I come back if, you know, what it'll be then because we just got to stay open we got to stay fluid but for now it's what speaks to me deeply you know and that's all we got you know for the moment my last question and it's a it's a quote right and the quote is other

people's opinion of you whether it's good or, should not be grounds in which you base your self-worth. Your value is inherent within you. What matters the most is whether you know you are worthy. That's right. So do you know you're worthy? Absolutely. And you know what? It really comes from, and I wanted to say this in regards to the question you asked about self-worth, really dealing with self-judgment like once we can cure our self-judgment in a certain manner

right people's opinion about you can only affect you if you believe it you know what i mean once you really know who you are once you really know your self-worth anything that anybody else has to say about you really can't affect you you know and so you know I know how much work it's taken for me to get to know myself I can't expect anybody else to know me like that hmm you know what I mean So I have to be willing and accept whatever opinions come my way. I get it.

Absolutely. Yeah. All right. Jada Pinkett Smith, ladies and gentlemen. That's right. Thank you for coming. We appreciate you for joining us

so much. Thank you, guys. Thank you. This was beautiful. The book Worthy is out right now. Make sure you get it and thank you. Thank you.

Don't be a stranger. No, I won't. Not at all. It's The Breakfast Club with thank you. Thank you. Don't be a stranger. No, I won't. Not at all. It's The Breakfast Club with Jada Pinkett Smith. Wake that ass up early in the morning. The Breakfast Club. As a kid, I really do remember having these dreams and visions, but you just don't know what is going to come for you.

Alicia shares her wisdom on growth, gratitude, and the power of love. I forgive myself. It's okay. Have grace with yourself. You're trying your best, and you're going to figure out the rhythm of this thing. Alicia Keys, like you've never heard her before. Listen to On Purpose with Jay Shetty on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Had enough of this country? Ever dreamt about starting your own? I planted the flag.

This is mine. I own this. It's surprisingly easy. 55 gallons of water, 500 pounds of concrete. Or maybe not. No country willingly gives up their territory. Oh my God. What is that?

Bullets. Listen to Escape from Zakistan. That's Escape from Z-A-Q-istan on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey guys, I'm Kate Max. You might know me from my popular online series, The Running Interview Show, where I run with celebrities, athletes, entrepreneurs, and more. After those runs, the conversations keep going. That's what my podcast, Post Run High, is all about. It's a chance to sit down with my guests and dive even deeper into their stories, their journeys, and the thoughts that arise once we've hit the pavement together. Listen to Post Run High on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your

podcasts. Hello, my undeadly darlings. It's Teresa, your resident ghost host. And do I have a treat for you. Haunting is crawling out from the shadows, and it's going to be devilishly good. We've got chills, thrills, and stories that'll make you wish the lights stayed on.

So join me, won't you? Let's dive into the eerie unknown together. Sleep tight, if you can. Listen to Haunting on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, y'all. Niminy here.

I'm the host of a brand new history podcast for kids and families called Historical Records. Executive produced by Questlove, The Story Pirates, and John Glickman, Historical Records brings history to life through hip-hop. Flash, slam, another one gone. Bash, bam, another one gone. The crack of the bat and another one gone. brings history to life through hip-hop. Each episode is about a different inspiring figure from history. Like this one about Claudette Colvin, a 15-year-old girl in Alabama who refused to give up her seat on the

city bus nine whole months before Rosa Parks did the same thing. Check it. And it began with me. Did you know, did you know? I wouldn't give up my seat. Nine months before Rosa, it was called a four-month. Get the kids in your life excited about history

by tuning in to Historical Records. Because in order to make history, you have to make some noise. Listen to Historical Records on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.