The Breakfast Club - INTERVIEW: Jennifer Arnise Talks 'Black Mother Wound,' Survival Vs. Healing Within Black Families + More

Episode Date: May 25, 2026

Today on The Breakfast Club,Jennifer Arnise Talks 'Black Mother Wound,' Survival Vs. Healing Within Black Families. Listen For More!YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@BreakfastClubPower1051FMSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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Hold on. Every day I wake up. You're all finished or y'all's done? Morning, everybody is DJ Envy. Just hilarious. Salomey Nagar. We are the Breakfast Club. Lawlerosa's here as well. We got a special guest in the building. That's right. Now, she entered the picture podcast competition at last year's Black Effect. Podcasts, podcast festival.

Black Effect, say it with your chest, please. I said Black Effect. I didn't like where it wrote off. I said Black Effect Podcast Festival. She won, and she is now on the network. The name of her podcast is the Black Mother Woon Podcast. Ladies and gentlemen, we have Jennifer Arnese. Welcome.

Good morning, Jennifer. Good morning. How are you feeling? I'm feeling amazing. Where are you from? I'm from Stedman, North Carolina. North Carolina, okay. Hey, Carolina girl.

How did you look up with? Instagram. Oh, okay. Yep. I live outside of Charlotte now in Rock Hill. Okay. All right, because at the podcast festival, she was with another podcaster from Delaware.

And I was like, oh, my God, this is like such a full circle moment. My first time meeting you and you were her and I know her for years. And you know her for years. And we know each other online for years. And now it's my buddy. And you're also a spiritual coach and intuitive healer. Yes. What is that exactly?

Well, it means that the work that I do is all about creating a better relationship with yourself, right? So that's your mind, your body, and your spirit. And I think most of us, we're giving tools on how to have our physical body in shape. We're given tools now to even maybe, you know, our intellect and our mind. But a lot of times our spirit, the thing we can't see, gets neglected. And I think that's like our core and that's where our compass is and that's where our intuition lies. So I think through healing, through vulnerability, transparency, you can stop compartmentalizing those things and have them all work together. Is an intuitive healer, kind of like a medium or?

No, a medium. I don't tell you the future or anything like that. It's just how you connect with yourself. Got you. Your inner little child, your emotions, all those types of things like that. It's, yeah, it's no crystal balls. You have the power. It's teaching someone how to tap into their own power.

And, you know, we've been having a lot of conversations lately just about, you know, father wounds, mother wounds. What is a black mother wound for people who don't know? So let me tell you about what a mother wound is because I think with social media, they throw in terms around and use them for everything, right? And how I came to learn the mother wound through Bethany Webster is it is a generational wound that passes down from a mother to a daughter is rooted in the patriarchy and the mother. lack of autonomy that she has over her own life that's created by the patriarchy, she models that behavior down to her daughter. And so it's like really teaching a girl how to survive with less,

right? And so you have, so it's gender-based. The black mother wound, we're going to add race and how a black woman also loses autonomy, not just because of her gender, but because of her race. Because when I read all these books about the mother wounds, they don't, there's not a real reflection of us. A black woman's story isn't centered and it's not the same. Having a white mother and having a black mother is not the same. The wounding is not the same. So it's really how we approach it, especially if you grew up with a strong black mother. If you grew up with that, because there is no strong white mother. There's no strong Mexican mother. There's no strong Asian. But there's a strong black mother and that's really a crown of thorns. We've kind of exalted it,

but really is painful and you pass that down to your daughters. So if my mother was born in 1946, she has certain freedoms. So I was born in the 70s. She's teaching me from what she knows about freedom. But I have more freedom, right? And that becomes the disconnect because she's trying to teach me about a world that doesn't exist anymore. And I'm trying to live in a world that she doesn't know about. And that's what creates a lot of the conflict between black women and their daughters.

Well, break that down, explain that a little bit. Because somebody will say, well, I'm white. I had a strong white woman, a wife, strong white mother. You know, I'm Asian. She's talking about that. But the social construct. But break that down because people will just hear that and be like, that's not true. But what do you break that down and what do you mean about that?

When I say having, when you say, oh, she's, I'm a strong black woman. Like, it's seen as, you know, a badge of honor. How you, I was listening earlier on the radio and the guy was talking about his wife. And he said, he loves his wife. because she's always in so much pain, but she never shows it. That's what he loves about her. That type of expectation, I believe,

is relegated to black women. And if you are going through pain and you don't know how to show it and you have a black daughter, she's going to go through pain and you're going to teach her not to show it because that's what being strong is. That's what being good is,

how much you can abandon yourself for the sake of others, which is rooted in systematic racial oppression is rooted in chattel slavery is the dehumanization of a black woman and how she teaches her daughter that her

dehumanization is also a part of her survival and how to wear it with a smile how to make it nice that's not something that other cultures are really experiencing the way black women in their daughters and that it's not the same our elders endured so much

that sometimes trauma gets passed down as strength not sometimes always yeah it does because at one point that was how you stayed alive but it's not how you stay alive now and I think that's why we have to even update how we are parenting because when you look at black culture a big part of black culture you have music you have the way you dress you have the way you talk and you have the way you parent or you parent like a black parent you parent like this and it's so rooted in tradition that we're missing that is it's because coming obsolete now.

When did you learn that you were even allowed to acknowledge that there were black mother wounds? Because for a long time, I didn't even know that I was allowed to even talk, say that and talk about that. I never knew. I always knew it was a thing. And then when I was 40, me and my mother were having a conversation on the phone. And she started hitting me with a one word answer.

I was trying to help her. And she was like, okay, okay, okay. And I realized she thinks I'm her enemy. I have spent all my life trying to please her trying to be everything that she wants me to be and in this moment she thinks I'm her enemy she doesn't trust me and it was literally like my life flashed before my face

and I had seen it my whole life and I was like oh she got me fucked up this is not me this is not my problem and then to talk about it I read a book by Bray Brown and she was talking about shame and I realized how much shame I felt

because I didn't have a close relationship with my mother. I didn't even know how to acknowledge it. And so realizing that you cure shame through sharing. And so that's when I was like, let me see if, am I broken? Am I a bad person? Am I wrong? And then starting to share my story and people saying, oh, my God, you're saying how I feel, but I didn't have words for it.

You're letting me know I'm not the only one. I'm not crazy. I'm not exaggerating. I'm not making it up. Those were all the things I felt. And so as soon as I saw, oh I'm not the only one I was like let's talk about it and it really did help me because I have so much shame you know what I mean it's just I was raised in the Bible Belt in church single black mother you know

everything is like there's a sense of guilt that's put on you early on and so just being just talking about it has helped and that's why I think that's a really important thing when you talked about it with your mom was she receptive to hearing that no and we've had the conversation before I've never never, I've always known there was something off between the relationship with me and my mother. My whole life, my father knew it, you know, and this is not to shade her. It's just something that I always knew, but I just felt that it, that it was me. So, no, I don't, I don't think she has that. Well, I know she doesn't have that capacity to understand.

And I've seen as disrespeck for me to even bring it up. I want to talk about that, right? Because like, you know, mothers, grandmothers, right? in the black community, they're sacred figures. You can't be questioned. How do you create space for accountability without encouraging disrespect? Well, first, I think we need to redefine, like, what is disrespect? Because that is, like, the number one word in the black community.

It's like, oh, what does that mean? Because a lot of times, if you disagree, you disrespect. If you talk loud, you disrespect. If you don't say yes, ma'am. So it's like, you can't hold someone accountable. Your boundary is for you. So my generation, it might not happen with me. It may happen with the next generation.

So this work isn't about changing the mother, right? It is about the daughter healing the relationship with herself. So she doesn't repeat the same patterns. And then as she becomes in touch with her own humanity, she then can see her mother's humanity. And sometimes you do love from afar. We have to get out of this concept that what a mother should be, how the relationship should be and learn to accept it as it is

and build loving community and loving relationships where we can find them. A lot of times we think if I don't get the love from my mother, then I'm not going to get it from anybody. And my things, I want to teach you just because she can't give you the love, it doesn't mean the love doesn't exist because you're going to a well that's dry. You know, it's like I'm a cell phone.

I'm an iPhone. Just think about our programming, all the things that an iPhone can do. a lot of our mothers are a house phone. You can't click over. There's no FaceTime. There's no apps. It's a limited capability. Does that make her wrong?

No. We are all on an evolutionary journey. This isn't about shaming anybody, but it is understanding actual human dynamics and like where can I get the love I need. How do you break those traumas, right? Because it's like, you know, being a dad, right? Like my dad raised me a certain way, right?

And he did it out of survival, right? He was, he went to the military. He's seen racism. He wasn't able to drink a certain water fountain. So for me, he looks at people a certain way, which made me look at people a certain way. Right. But that was 40, 50, 60 years ago.

But now when I have my kids, I kind of do the same thing as my dad, and I try to scale back a little bit, but it's difficult because that's how you raise. So how do you break those traumas so that your daughters and your daughter's daughters and your daughters, daughters, daughters, daughters, are not feeling that same trauma.

The reality is I'm not going to fix all of it. there are mistakes I made with my son that I'm putting money away for him to be in therapy when he's older you know what I'm saying you're not going to fix everything you're in that's I think what's better than being right

is allowing yourself to be wrong in front of your kids you know it's like I don't know I feel this way I know it's not right I'm working through it okay dad well we're going to help you out you know I made a mistake things like that

it's just apologizing Apologizing is huge, right? My son would prefer me to apologize than be right all the time because I want to teach him how to apologize. So you're not going to break every chain, right? It is just a process.

And really, it comes from you being transparent and vulnerable. And this, exactly the story you just said, telling your kids that. Like, hey, I'm trying to change these things. This is the way I am. So be patient with dad. I'm working on it.

And that's all you can do. You think a lot of black families confuse survival with healing? I don't know if they confuse survival with healing. I think they confuse healing with religion. So survival is just how we live. I think we confuse maybe survival with our culture. Like we have a, as black culture, a lot of things we do are survival base.

So we can confuse those. But I don't think they confuse survival with healing. I think people think that healing is either church-based or you have to be on somebody's couch going through therapy all the time. When this is what healing is. Healing is a change in perspective. That's all that healing is. It means you can see something differently where you saw it, you know, as a curse. Now that I have a better understanding, I can see it as a blessing.

Two things can still be true. It did hurt me, but now I've learned from it. I have a new skill from it, things of that nature, right? So I think that's how we don't really have a, and we think healing means if something is black, we can make it white. That's what I mean that we look at it in religion. That's why we want, I want my mother to change. Why can't she change? Like, just flip a switch.

I'm going to pray for her. She's going to be different. I mean, that's not how it happens. When you get pregnant, it takes not much. You're not going to pray a baby to be born. We only know about that happening one time, you know. So we don't look at people evolving in that. that same way. But healing in a miracle is a change in perspective. So healing your mother wound

is not changing your mother. It is changing your perspective about the relationship and changing the perspective you have about yourself. Because how my mother saw herself, she taught me to see myself that way. I was going to do another question on that. Why do you think things change when a lot of women become grandmothers, right? A mother will be a certain way. But when they're a grandmom, it's like, it's totally, totally different. Why do you think that is? Because there's no danger. It's like when you have a child, it's like your heart is outside. You have no control.

And again, if you have a mother wound, you don't have autonomy over your own life. And now you're the supreme law for this individual that is depending on you for everything. You've never had that happen before. It's so much pressure and stress. So when you're a grandparent, all those necessities are taken care of by someone else. So you can kind of, there's space between. between things, you know? That's all it is.

It's just a space. And it's not always that way because some grandparents are still the same way. With their grandchildren. When you think of the Black Mother wound, right? How much of it is personal and how much of it is systemic? I think it starts systemically.

It's cultural because it is rooted in racism and it's rooted in a patriarchy. So it's how we see women, how the world sees women. And then, of course, it becomes personal because we live it every day. And it becomes like the breath, it becomes the water. Yeah, I have a thing. It's just my personal opinion.

I feel like the parents are the first people that traumatize you. If they're not doing it right as a child. Yes, they absolutely are. That's why everything you're talking about, when you talk about apologizing and admitting your mistakes, that stuff I'd never heard. Never heard, never. But it wasn't, you have to think, again,

they didn't even have the language for that. You have to think a house phone with the string and is rotary. That's very limited. But so much has happened in one or two generations that now we have so many resources to us that we can understand things very differently. But they are the first people to traumatize us in ways because they didn't have the tools, they didn't have the skills, you know,

but they still have to be held responsible for the impact. Especially for somebody with his attention. You know the psychological torture of having to go pick a switch? I know you from the California. My grandma, my aunts always talk about having to go pick a switch. Having to go pick the weapon that's used to hurt you. So we know what's worse? When they'll pick up anything and hit you.

I'll go pick a switch. I'll go pick a switch because don't get me with no flaswaters. You haven't been hit with a flas water? No. Okay. My grandma used to use a vacuum cord, though. Thank you. You haven't been hit with a bruised?

No. Okay. All right. Right. I'll go pick a stick. Remember the big wooden spoons people used to have on their wall? Absolutely. Yes. My mother, she had a ruler, and it was like an 18-inch ruler from her job, and it used to belong to a man named Mr. Bell and had his name on the back.

So she would say, go get Mr. Bell. Oh, Lord. So when you was going to get Mr. Bell, you was about to get your ass tore up. But that, again, is rooted in chattel slavery, that you punish someone. You change a behavior through physical punishment and the removal of acceptance. the removal of affection, the removal of attention. Actually, that's more violent, they say, than physical punishment when you remove your affection from a child, when they do something wrong, you know,

or you ignore them when they're in the house. That really causes even more damage, right? But we weren't taught that we were people who had feelings. And then we have to think about people don't look at kids as human beings. You don't have feelings. you don't have emotions. Everybody's giving everything to you. So you can just, there's no reason for you to make this mistake.

Right. And that is why evolution is so important and that we have these conversations because there are new pathways to parent. There are new pathways to relate to each other now. What's the biggest thing you had to change about how, like something you thought about yourself that you realized was like from your mother wound? That I wasn't worth loving. Mm-hmm.

that I had to work to be loved, that I had to earn love, that I had to be perfect, that everything had to be right, that I couldn't make mistakes, that I didn't be long, that everybody else could be loved, but I couldn't be loved, that everybody else could get help, everybody else could fall down, have somebody help them get back up, but not me. That's a heavy burden, and I think that's been the biggest thing with this work is teaching other black women like, you don't have to earn love. You don't have to be a certain way to be loved. You can make a mistake.

You can be bad at something and you can get better at it. And like it doesn't change who you are. It doesn't change who you are. You are not broken. Yeah. Yeah. That was the biggest thing. Man, you know, a lot of black people grew up hearing things like what happens in this house

stays in this house? How much damage has secrecy done to generations of family? See, it has created. secrets and more secrets or more secrets where people can't be authentic where people can't be themselves where you can't say when you're hurt and what happens is then you go out in a world and you create more damage but so much of that is is the pride you know but that again is rooted in the dehumanization of black people that you have to show up a certain way and at one point it was violent if you didn't have it right you know what I mean off the

and you have to update. That's what we have to change the culture of black parenting because the secrecy is doing us way more harm than we could ever imagine. The tough thing, go get along some tissue, please. The tough thing about, you know, parenting is it don't come with no manual.

You know what I mean? So the only thing I'm trying to do is be better than, well, no, this is what I'm trying to do. The things that I know hurt me and traumatize me, I'm just trying not to do that. my kids. Yes. And that's great. I don't like when people say there's not a manual. Okay. There are tons of books you can read about parenting. You know, you might not take them all from, you might not take them all to be, you know, the word, but there are tools out there, right?

Because no matter what, when, take the word parenting out of it. It's a relationship. Everything is a relationship between you and your kids, between you and your wife, between you and your parents, between you or your neighbor. It's just a relationship. So how do you have better relationships with people? We don't look at our kids as people. The respect that you want in the street, how you act at work, it's like, oh, there's a manual for that. Because you know you're going to get fired if you don't do certain things.

So there are ways. I think that's, I think people fall back on that. It's like, well, I mean, nobody told me. There's no manual. I got to make it up as I go. You actually don't have to make it up as you go. There are professionals. They are books.

There are resources. What about, you know, if I say people were never given the opportunity to actually become emotionally healthy before they became. That is very true. And this is why I'm saying, you're going to make mistakes. Everybody's not going to get it. Because mistakes can be crucial sometimes when you're dealing with kids. I think about me as a 47-year-old, about to be 48,

still trying to heal from being 8-9, things that happened with 8-9. this is why, that's the good thing about the time we live in now. And this work isn't about going backwards. It's about going forward. There's always going to be

hard times. You know, I think about Martin Luther King, Jr., he didn't see, he even said, I didn't see the mountaintop. Yeah. So he didn't get a chance

to see it. I'm not going to get a chance to see all of this work. You know, my son is not going to be perfect. He's going to mess up with his kids. So this is legacy work that we just do. because it's the right thing and everybody's not every this life everybody is

harsh to say everybody's not gonna make it right but if you're moving forward there are tools available do not get hooked on Instagram for being your tool for your mental health and mental wellness I will say that and I also want to say I'm not therapist everything that I talk about is from the social data of my life I was living it every day I was gonna ask that Jennifer Arnese no I never said that I You ain't going to play. I'm ready. Ignore him.

You think I ain't ready? I already got him. I was going to ask you. I know where he's from. You know, you said that there's books where people can read. You know, even me and my wife, we wrote books on raising our kids. But what I realize is everybody's family is different, right? Everybody's kids are different, right?

If that was the case, all my kids would be the same, but they're not. Like, you can talk to this one and this one will get it, but this one won't have any idea what you're saying. So there really is no manual. But what I wanted to ask you is, you know, going through your, page I've seen that you have one podcast that seemed like it really resonated and I wanted to ask you why you felt that way right and it was episode 27 where it was how to meet the needs your mother couldn't meet why did that resonate so much with people here the whole interview why did that resonate so much with people and what is the fix for that I would say or guess it's a big deal because we have a dream of who our mother could be and we have a dream of this relationship that could be you know what i mean and you know how you have disney you have the you have uh cinderella of course you have all of that that's us like it's so deeply like we want it so bad we want her to show up for us in a certain way so bad that we will

neglect ourselves because we think she'll get it. If I can show I can't do it, she'll pick up, she'll pick up the piece and she'll meet the need for me. It's like trying to toss the ball. You know, alley-oop, alley-oop, and the ball just keeps dropping and rolling. And then you have to come to the decision where it's like, oh, I've got

a mother myself. I've got to let go of the fantasy of something that I will never have. And that's a greeting. and a heartbreak like you you've been your your heart broke a long time ago but you've been holding it together and then you finally realize in order for me to take care of myself I've got to let my heart break isn't that a good thing it I'm not saying it's not good but it's hard because once you're a parent you can I don't want to say B but you could want to be what you felt the newest tracks let's go new music and the next big thing

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Hey, it's us, the Jonas brothers, and guess what? We have some big news. What's the news, new? Huge news. created our own podcast called Hey Jonas. We invented a podcast? Well, we didn't invent it. We just contributed to a first people to do podcasts. Pretty, yeah, pretty wide range of podcasts. We're starting a trend. But this one's extra special. So how did we, how do we actually come up with the name Hey Jonas, guys? I honestly don't remember. I think it was on a call about what we should

call it. Well, we were thinking I'm originally calling it one of the early names of our band. before Jonas Brothers was... This is how you guys remember it going down? Yes. I have a very different memory of this. We were talking about a thing, a bit for the podcast,

where people could call in and say, Hey, Jonas. And then I wrote down on my little notepad, Hey Jonas, and offered it up as a potential title for the podcast. But thanks for remembering that, guys. Listen to Hey Jonas on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast.

Just listen. We don't care where you hear it. Another podcast from some SNL, late-night comedy guide, Not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smygel and friends. Me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier. This week, my guest, S&L's Mikey Day and head writer, Streeter Seidel, help an a cappella band with their between songs banter.

Where does your group perform? We do some retirement homes. Those people are starving for banter. Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel and Friends on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. The story I've told myself about love or relationships can then shape my behavior, and that can lead me to sabotage the possibility of connection. This Mental Health Awareness Month, tune into the podcast deeply well with Debbie Brown

and explore the journey of healing, self-discovery, and returning to yourself. We explore higher consciousness, emotional well-being, and the practices that help you find clarity, peace, and self-mastery. in a world that can feel overwhelming. The world is becoming lonelier. We're not becoming more social and connected. We're becoming more individualized, but we actually meet people in connection.

If you've been searching for a soft place to land while doing the work to become whole, this podcast is for you to hear more. Listen to deeply well with Debbie Brown from the Black Effect Podcast Network on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. mother or your father left out in your life, right?

Like, for instance, right? My mom and dad did not talk to me as a, quote-unquote, friend. They believe a child stays in a child place I'm not your friend, right? So what happens is, is you kind of have that wall when something's going on. It's almost like there's a fear to talk to them because you don't want to get in trouble. My kid's a little different. I'm like, tell me everything. Tell me what's going on so we can help.

Now, you might get in trouble. But I want you to talk. It's a different relationship. But I learned that from not having that with my parents. So it's kind of you learn it. You do, but not everybody learns it. Not every. You have to also look at envy.

You have been exposed to lots of different things and people and situations that have taught you that you have to communicate. Do you understand? So I think all of those things make a difference as well. And yes, it is good, but is heart. breaking still. I mean, that's like saying somebody dying. Well, it is good that they died because it made space for somebody else.

I can't say that. Well, that's what you're saying. You can say they went to heaven. But it's still, don't earth. They gone. So you're making another space. You know, but for us, you get to say they died, they went to heaven. There's an ending. Correct. But when that person is still alive and they live up the road, but they're still, I'm dead to them. They're dead to me. What do you do with that type of finite grief? That's what you have to manage to live. To live, with like it's a weight that you carry and a lot of times women don't want to do the

work because they don't want to have to live in that right and blooms and blossoms can come from that but hey I feel like that's where the generational passing down of it happens because like your mom doesn't even understand how to show for you because she didn't get it yeah and then when you're old enough to do it better with your own kids and you're trying to teach it to them it's like they're older now so they're not understanding it but also like she don't even under she doesn't even grasp the idea sometimes of like what you're talking through because it's just not there right and and you also talk about this like we're animals right just like they're different a horse parents their babies or an elephant or a tiger

all those types of things so i look at my job my mother's job with me was to get me to a certain point. I have released her from all responsibility. I know how to take care of myself. She taught me certain skills. There's certain things I've learned. You know, I can go out in the jungle and I can hunt because of her. I'm thankful for that. So now for me to say, and I want us to sit on the phone and I tell you all my dark secrets and you'll be there and you'll do this and you won't back. Like, I'm asking too much. But you're okay with that every day, though? Because I feel like I'm working through that right now, but some days I don't feel like that. I don't, it's time.

I'm, I'm, this happened, what I'm 11 years in the game. Yeah. You know what I mean? It's like a muscle you've got to build, Lauren, and it does get hard. And that's why we talk about when you have kids, but it's so important for you to reparent the inner little girl. That's what this work is really all about in building community because we're putting our happiness in the hands of someone who can't hold it.

It doesn't mean that we can't have happiness. It's so important to risk it with other people, to learn to be vulnerable with other people, to let them hold you, to let them help you, to be there for you. But that's a skill set. I mean, I'm learning so many things for the first time in my 40s, in my 50s.

It's hard. And I have a child that I raise alone at the same time. It's me tired, okay? But it's so worth it. because what you're going to do, you're going to try and hold that hurt when you 80. So if it's hard now when I'm 50, okay, when I'm 70, I'm going to be chilling.

Right. So you just got to look at it in a more long-term way. I thought about the question just now, right? And it's just, it's going to go to a conversation. But what does healing actually look like if your parent never apologizes? But do parents have to apologize if they didn't even know what the hell they was doing?

Well, I'm not big on apology and I'm not big on forgiveness. I don't center those. What you mean? Meaning healing my mother wound is not healing the relationship I have with my mother. It's healing the relationship I have with myself. And that's what I focus on. So if I'm focused on that, I don't need an apology from someone. What, I mean, I know you were doing what you knew how to do.

What about the forgiveness part? forgiveness is understanding that things couldn't be any different than the way they were. That still has nothing to do with anybody else. You know, so that's the part. But you can't get to the acceptance until you heal the relationship you have with yourself.

We want to start at the end. We want to, well, you've got a forgiver. You got to forgive her. I haven't even gone through. Let me go through what I got to go through. Can I be angry? That's how my grandma is though. She'd be like, it's your parent.

It's your mom and your dad. You have to forgive me. And that's really a dehumanization. That's a person because if somebody was to hit me with a car and my leg is broken, my leg is broken. Right, right. So am I going to focus on why they hit me with the car? Do they have a license? Did they have brakes?

Or am I going to focus on how to repair my leg so I can go and live my life? That's a good example, though, because. the person may not have hit you no he probably didn't hit you on purpose I don't care it doesn't matter like that's the whole thing why are we it doesn't matter

your leg is broke you still got a hill and your healing is your responsibility got you that's what's important and we're focusing on well why did they do what they did and that is centering the other person

and it really leaves the person who's been wounded in the cold right but because we have this thing of that's your parents so that they they have more um power they they're more valuable because they're a parent you're a child now the thing is and what does that mean but now i'm a parent to somebody else so we how do we like siphon out value of a person it's crazy because listening to lauren i kind of feel that way right with my parents right if my parents do something I don't like. My first reaction is, how can I be mad? How can I be upset? How can I take it away?

Because I look at it as they sacrifice their life to make sure I was good. They worked doubles and triples to put me in college. They did all this. So that's just my mom. And I don't believe in the debt either. My son doesn't owe me anything. True. I chose to have him. I made that decision. Okay. He doesn't owe me anything. I don't want him to be like, well, I can't be, she's wrong. I don't want to be mad at her because she did this for me no i mess up because you're also kind of lying to yourself but you're also in a place of power you have autonomy over your life so you being mad at them or not i'm envy you know what i mean it is very much different for black girls because when we don't show up in a way that they approve of the the way that we get ignored

the way we get looked down at the way we get chastised and punish is not the same way that men, you know, y'all don't experience it the same way. It sounds different for us too, though. I mean, but your only child, so I don't know this works with you, but I feel like when you're the oldest black daughter in the family. Talk about it. Oh, my God.

You have to understand that we were raised to be of service. Yes, yeah. To everyone. We were raised to reflect if our parents did a good job or not. that's what this is about, you know? Boys are not raised to be like, well, he's a boy. As long as he ain't gay, we did our job.

But a girl, your dad failed. Did she go to college? Your dad did too. I don't know if I could do your podcast, girl. You're going to be crying the whole time. It's okay. It's good, though. Shut up.

Good conversation. Yeah, we need this, right? Because for us, we got to not get pregnant. not be a whore go to college wear the right clothes not wear too much makeup have the right friends

speak the right way everything has to be right otherwise we are making her or him we're making our parents look bad that's a lot of pressure right and then to be on top of it like

if you're taught that anything about your body how black girls are sexualized at a young age so it's like Just you being you is a problem, you know, but I understand because to be a free, flirty, curious black girl in the 40s could get you hung. So if you, if my mother came from outside Ellery, Santee, that area. So there is a, it's dangerous. But that's what I mean the parenting hasn't updated because it's not dangerous anymore. That's the difference in how you're, if you're the black girl in the family, especially the oldest,

your grandmother talks to you from that. Like she's fearful. My grandma's fearful of everything I say. What I do, what I post, what I wear. Yes. My mom is more like rebel, do what you need to do. But I'm still dealing with the, I'm second parent in the household. Yes, absolutely.

Sometimes from a young age and having to have a hard conversation younger on like, Mom, like, I'm a child too. I'm a child. Ma'am. Right. But that's it. That is the, that is. the wound because you don't get an opportunity to define who you are. You don't get a chance to have

the autonomy of how you feel. Our voice in our head is our mother or grandmother. And it's so powerful because it's like, dang, she told me that when I was five. Here I am 45. And I'm still leading with that. But now I look at my life, the fruit of my life is not where it should be because I have an out-of-date thinking and thought process. So that's how it's going to continue to show up in your life. But do you ever feel like it's weird too? Because for me, I don't feel like I don't have any disdain or anything against my mom and my grandmother. Me and my mom had to work toward that though, right? But like I, I feel like I love and I value them so much differently now because they're older. And I appreciate some of the things that have also traumatized me at the

same time. It's a weird. Well, that's what, well, again, healing is a change in perspective. Right? It's a change in perspective. So two things can be true at the same. time. You know, my mother, you know, whatever she put in front of us, that's what we had to eat. That was harsh back in the day. You know, but now I eat everything. My child eats everything, you know, I was, you know, so

there's a give and take. And also the mother wound, it's a spectrum. Everybody, just, you can have a loving relationship with your mother and still have a wound. It doesn't mean that it's to the point, like I haven't spoken with my mother in over a decade where it's no contact.

There's a spectrum, right? But it really still all comes back to how you relate to yourself. Do you feel guilty for that? Yeah, you said you heal your mother wound, but I guess that's what you're saying. You can heal it without. Healing a mother wound is an ongoing process. Yeah, but healing my mother wound is not healing the relationship with my mother.

It's healing the relationship with myself. Do you feel guilty at that for not having that relationship with your mom? No, because I tried to have a relationship with her. I can't make somebody have a relationship with me that doesn't want to have a relationship with me, or they only want to be with me on their own terms. I think at a point I felt guilty. But then when I realized when she and I had that conversation,

this is never going to change. And not to die, not to get too personal, but this is your mom that raised you and did everything. There's not one, like a mom that you didn't know. This is your mom-mom-that-raised you and everything that's been in your life. Yes. I want you to hear what you're saying because I'm going to tell you how that sounds.

No, because there's a different way of saying it. Like, if somebody's saying I don't speak to my mom and my mom wasn't in my life, but it's more understandable. But if somebody, I'm just saying what it looks like to the outside world, but like if a mom that was there for your sweet 16 and was there for your graduation, it was there for the first job. Like absentee mom. No, absentie mom.

But this is what you have to understand. You could be raised with someone every day in the home. They pay all the bills. you have somewhere to stay and you still don't have a relationship with them. Like you just mentioned... No, that's what I'm asking. Yeah, yeah.

But my mother, but there's still a spectrum because from the outside, it was like, oh, my mother worked hard. We lived in a good neighborhood. My mother didn't come to my high school graduation. But even if she would have, I still have a right to acknowledge harm. I still have a right to acknowledge harm.

Her existing, coexisting with me does not create a debt. that now I owe my humanity. I owe my pain to her because she kept me alive. You know? So I think it's how you phrase the question. It can be triggering to someone because it's like, I mean, what did she do?

Did she beat you every? I mean, did you sleep in a closet? Like, it's really not bad enough for you to feel that way, you know? And again, that's where we don't allow people to have their experience. when it's with a parent. Now, if I was... I was just asking because, you know, an absentee mom is different than a present mom, right?

Not always. Well, why not? Because like she said, a present mom can still be absentee. Yeah. And if you have an absentee mom, maybe you didn't get the harm. She didn't cause the harm. You had someone who was present that caused a lot of harm, which would you rather have?

So it's not cookie cutter. Every situation is so unique. And it's not for anyone on the outside to say how you respond to harm. That's dehumanizing to tell someone, oh, this is how you should respond to them hurting you because they have a certain title, because they've paid a certain amount of money, because they've gone without something that you can repay them with your pain and quietly. And put a smile on your face while you're at it. So do you look at your mom? I'm just going to sound crazy. But do you look at your mom as a regular friend?

Or is there a hierarchy of how you look at family members and relationships, right? Because I look at my mom as a different hierarchy than I look at, let's say, a friend. Let's say Lauren does something to me that hurts my heart and my mom does the same thing. I can cut Lauren off on a minute. But even though it hurt me the same, it cut me the same just as deep. I'm not cutting off my mom because of not just. she had me, but the sacrifices she did to make sure that my life was better than hers. Well, I guess you have to look at if someone has lived with a person and there has been

consistent harm, that is not the same as to say, she didn't call me today. That's very, that's very different. Of course. You know what I mean? And did, you know, the things that our parents. do, that's what they choose to do. I don't believe in the debt. I don't, you know,

I don't want my son to do well in school because of what I sacrificed. Because it's not sustainable. You know what I mean? And it's not authentic. So you don't have, I don't have, you, you can make any choice you want to, but don't make

a choice just because someone has a title. I agree. When I pray for, when I pray to God to take negativity out my life. Sometimes he might swing at people that you wouldn't expect like, oh, your mom, your dad, whoever it is. And if you got to cut them off, you got to cut them off. Yeah, because

this is the thing. The way we learn to relate in our parent, daughter, parent, child relationships, we take that out into the world. Right. So imagine your daughter is with a man. And he takes, he's got money. He has sacrificed

for her and they're married now. He's done all the things she wanted to do. But she's, not happy with him. He demeans her. He's cruel to her behind bar, not behind bars, you know, behind closed doors. And it's like, you're, you're going to come and say, leave him, leave him. And she's like, I can't, he's done so much for me. He's made so many sacrifices for me. I'm going to look ungrateful. Nobody's going to love me the way he is. Where did she learn that? She learned that modeling in her home when she was growing up. So it's very tricky to teach people to behave in that way because they're going to take it outside and say,

that same hierarchy of mother, she's going to say, well, he's a husband. He's my son's father. I have to give this type of creedits and this type of grace to them. And that's dangerous. So you have to really look at how that first relationship, the one with your parents, shapes you because it will impact all of your relationships moving forward. It can create a pimp hole down there. But also, I'm serious. No, you're right.

But as a father, the reason why I pour into my daughter and teach her how to have her own and help her have her own, so she's never in a situation like that. Right. That's the reason why I go. But you're also a father with those types of resources. But when I didn't, it was the goal of my life was to make sure my kids are happy, right?

Not wealthy, not rich, happy. That they can have a life, whatever they want to do. If they want to do nails, if they want to be an author, if they want to do podcast, but be happy because life is short. Most people work to get money and never happy, right? So the whole focus was to make sure my kids are happy and self-sufficient.

So they never have to rely on a situation where I'm here because this man is paying the bill. But it's not reliance because she has to. She might have the money, but it's still a social currency to have a husband in this country. and he's doing all the right things and my dad you liked him dad you like him

she don't like him no boy but you still like him because you don't see the dynamic that they have so some of these things you haven't gotten to yet because your kids aren't old enough well one of them is but they're up there right I got a 24 year old right but even 24 is still young you know what I mean so some of these choices that they're going to make you no matter what

you're going to look back and be like absolutely tried to tell you know but you do have to be very careful with those hierarchies because they can be applied anywhere and if you live and die on that hill it's dangerous I was gonna ask like you've never thought about like but you're not speaking to your mom

and I know you tried before like what if there is not another day to even think about having the option to try like how you would feel in that type of situation I mean, you mean I get what you're saying. I get what you're saying. I don't have an answer because I've made peace with it.

I mean, it's hard. This is a hard conversation. Because I know I sound, I sound cold-blooded. No, I can tell you got to this point. Yeah,

because I'm not angry at her. But we don't know the ends and out to your relationship too. Yeah, and it's not a, I'm not mad at her, you know. But I do feel like, my mother doesn't, speak to any of her kids. Right.

And I feel like she has done all she can do. This is where she's at peace. So why am I going to bring my, if you being in relationship with me upsets you, why would I put, why would I do that to you? That would be selfish. That's again, me trying to make her be someone that she's not. I get it. So if she is happy with the arrangement, I honor that.

That is how I honor her as my mother. That, have released you from responsibility of having to be anything that you're not, to manage, to be in a space with me if you know that I might trigger certain things in you. So I know the answer to this question, but you feel forgiven, do you think forgiveness is necessary for healing or is acceptance just enough? Is, I think that, I don't, I think that forgiveness is a footnote. I think you can see something in a different perspective

than you've done your work. How you see that person, whether you call it forgiveness or not forgiveness, is not the goal because then you're centering the other person. I just think forgiveness is a footnote in healing because healing is selfish and it should be. When you start talking about forgiveness, you dilute that down.

And if you're someone who's always had to give and give and give and put other people first, we good I accept it I'm cool we cool with it or without it I'm cool yeah

yeah that's interesting I mean I remember having a conversation with my dad when I was 40 he just told me everything that he dealt with yeah I remember you talking about that you know and that

that just gave I gave him so much grace like I was just like because you saw him as a human being that's it that's all it's not like oh I was right and I made it's like

oh damn you're a real person going through some shit Oh, I can see why that happened. That's why I said being an imperfect parent sometimes can make you a better parent because now we can see each other. And that removes the hierarchy. The hierarchy is needed for care. But when the care is over, do we still need the hierarchy? That's why I don't like the word respect your elders, respect, respect.

Because who gets to respect? That only benefits one person. and that's the older person. You know what I mean? So I think that humanizing is what's most important. If somebody is listening right now realizes they carry a mother wound, what's the first step toward healing without, you know,

drowning in anger or blame? Well, you may go to anger and blame first again. That's okay. Whatever you feel is okay. The thing is you're not by yourself. You're not making it up. you're not exaggerating and to start to do the work with yourself and really decentering the relationship with your you know you're playing something you turned on a

pod I didn't I don't even know it might have been Siri sorry Siri play Black Mother Woon podcast scroll down from the top and press pause scroll down from the top like as if We can edit this. Okay, I am so sorry. I don't even know where that's coming. Let me just put that. That's all right. You want to start with the question over?

Yeah, let you start with the question over. The question was, um, hold on one second. If somebody listening realizes they carry a mother wound, what's the first step toward healing? I mean, acknowledging that you're not alone, you're not by yourself, you're not making it up, and you're not exaggerating. And that healing your mother wound is not about healing the relationship with your mother. It's about healing the relationship you have with. yourself and how you work through that there are different ways to do that you can

work through that through that through therapy you can work through that joining and being a part of my community you can do that by laying in the bed crying and just wailing your owls out like whatever you're going through you have a right to go through it right and that this is not like a 30 days in and out it's fixed this is a lifelong process if you've been going through something for 40 years don't think in six months you're gonna be done done with it. Okay?

This is a commitment that you make to yourself. Jennifer Arnese, first of all, she got a book out called Fuck That Cape. Yeah, we don't even get to take the cape off. I know. They're putting herself first. Okay.

Great conversation. Make sure you go pick that up. Thank you. Thank you. And subscribe to the Black Mother Woon podcast on the Black Effect Podcast Network. You are having some necessary conversations. Absolutely.

And I have a live event coming in Charlotte in July. When is it? Give them a time. It's on July the 11. We're doing a live podcast recording. fireside chat, live coaching. So you can go to my website over at blackmother wound.com or Jennifer Arnese.com, and you can get a ticket.

Bring a friend. Tell a friend to tell a friend. Absolutely. Well, subscribe to the Black Mother Wounderwounderner. Definitely. Thank you all for having me. It's the Breakfast Club. Good morning.

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