The Breakfast Club - INTERVIEW: Joe Tacopina, A$AP Rocky's Lawyer, Talks Felony Assault Trial, A$AP Relli Perjury, Diddy, Michael Jackson + More

Episode Date: February 24, 2025

In this episode, renowned attorney Joe Tacopina, A$AP Rocky’s lawyer, breaks down the rapper’s felony assault trial, the perjury claims against A$AP Relli, and the latest legal battles in the entertainment world. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Do you remember what you said the first night I came over here? How? Goes lower? From Blumhouse TV, iHeart Podcasts, and Ember 20 comes an all new fictional comedy podcast series. Join the flighty Damien Hirst as he unravels the mystery of his vanished boyfriend. I've been spending all my time looking for answers about what happened to Santi. And what's the way to find a missing person? Sleep with everyone he knew, obviously. Listen to The Hook Up on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

This is John Cameron Mitchell, and my new fiction podcast series, Cancellation Island, stars Holly Hunter as Karen, a wellness influencer who launches a rehab for the recently cancelled. In the future, we will all be cancelled for 15 minutes. But don't worry, we'll take you from broke to woke or your money back. Cancellation Island's revolutionary rehab therapies like Bad Touch Football, Anti-Racism Spin Class and Mandatory Ayahuasca Ceremonies are designed to force the cancel to confront their worst impulses. But everything starts to fall apart when people start disappearing. Karen, where have you brought us?

Cancellation Island, where a second chance might just be your last. Listen to Cancellation Island on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, I'm Arturo Castro, and I've been lucky enough to do stuff like Broad City and Narcos and Roadhouse. And now I'm starting a podcast because honestly, guys, I don't feel the space is crowded enough. Get Ready for Greatest Escapes, a new comedy podcast about the wildest true escape stories in history. Each week I'll be sitting down with some of the most hilarious actors

and writers and comedians, people like Ed Helms, Diane Guerrero, and Joseph Gordon-Levitt. I love storytelling and I love you, so I can't wait. Listen and subscribe to Greatest Escapes on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Emi Olaya, host of the podcast, Crumbs. For years, I had to rely on other people to tell me my story. And what I heard wasn't good. You really f***ed last night. It felt like I lived most of my life in a blackout. I was trapped in addiction.

You had to grab the lamp and smashed it against the walls. And then I decided I wanted to grab the lamp and smash it against the walls. And then I decided I wanted to tell my own story. Listen to Krumz on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Wake that ass up. Early in the morning. The Breakfast Club. Morning everybody, it's DJ Envy, Jess Hilarious, Charlamagne the Guy, we are The Breakfast

Club. Lauren LaRosa filling in for Jess. We got a special guest in the building. Good morning everybody is DJ Envy, Jess Salaria, Charlamagne Negao, we are the Breakfast Club, Lauren LaRosa filling in for Jess. We got a special guest in the building. ASAP Joe. He has represented Iran, MJ, Meek, the Washington Commanders, Donald Trump, Foxy Brown, Neo, Swiss Beats, and of course ASAP Rocky.

Ladies and gentlemen, we have attorney Joe Tacopina. Did I say it last name right? You did, perfect. How you feeling this morning? Tired, but really good, really good. Yeah, so it was a five week war, but I've never been happier. And those two people, when I say those two people,

Rocky, Rihanna, are just such great people. I've gotten to know them over three years really well. I babysat for one of the kids, one during her Super Bowl performance. They're just good people. They're really, for real good people. You just listed a bunch of people I've represented. Rocky stands out as a terrific guy, yeah, really.

You know, it's interesting how people always, when we see these cases, they always wonder how the client is doing, right? Like how is ASAP? But I would think it's just as more mentally and emotionally draining for you as an attorney. You hit it, man. I mean, because look, obviously they have the stress

of the unknown, right? What's gonna happen. When I'm on trial, and whether it's Rocky or some unknown client I represent, the day goes from nine in the morning in court till about 4 a.m. you just work through and it's when you have a five-week trial you know you're sleeping an average of 10 hours a week and but you have to you have to but it's fine because you go on adrenaline it's all adrenaline based

because I can't go to sleep thinking I'm leaving something out or missing one thing and then when I go to sleep I sleep with one I open and a pad next to my bed but it is it's you know it's stressful and then in this case in particular where we had a prosecutor who was you know off the rails I mean it was like one day every day was a you know a war with him making you know all sorts of problems and allegations and we got heated and that became very personal. So, you know, it was a lot for me. But of course, they suffer in a different way.

Because one day Rihanna brought the babies to court and people were thinking it was a ploy, like some sort of maneuver to get the jury to feel sympathy. The jury's not feeling sympathy. They know he has a wife and kids. It was more because it was the last day of the trial and we were summing up, we were doing summations,

and the judge said we were gonna write into jury deliberations after that. At least that was the plan, it didn't work out that way. She brought him to court because that could have been the last time he'd seen his kids for a decade or more. That day. Wow, wow. I didn't even think about that.

Yeah, that's why she brought them. And people, a prosecutor made a big deal of it in his summation, which I thought was a fatal mistake, quite frankly. I do have to ask, two things that you did that we loved up here. One, we've seen criminal attorneys a million and one times. I've had, Charlemagne had.

But with you, it seemed, we were talking about, it seemed like you were fighting for your life too. What gives you the passion? Because looking at you, you were like, it was like, we all going to life too. What gives you the passion? Because looking at you, you were like, it was like, we all going to jail. So what gave you the passion? Because like I said, we see other criminal attorneys and for some you could tell when it's a check.

Is this a check, yeah. And some we can tell like, no, this is your life. So what gives you the passion when you have these cases? I don't know any other way, whether it's Rocky, I mean, A-Rod, when I was representing, that's what he said to the New York Times, he goes, it treats you like family. But I honestly, it's not like I mean a rod when I was representing that's what he said to the New York Times He goes to teach you like family, but I don't I honestly it's not like I do it, you know for a tactic It's just I don't know any other way when someone entrusts you with their life and it's like their life

Okay, maybe not the death penalty, but you know their liberty for 20 years 10 years, whatever. I Can't I couldn't look myself in the mirror if I didn't like get into that bunker with them and make it personal and treat them like family. Because then I'm not mailing anything in, let's put it that way. I have to, that's why I don't sleep during trials, because I have to look and make sure I'm not missing something. I want to get every tactical advantage I could get. And in every case, we always wind up rope-a-doping the opponent. I mean, we blow stuff out on summation, they're just like,

shh, they weren't ready for it. It happened in this case 12 times and they were they were knocked on their heels. You know, we did a five and a half hour summation. I did burn that jury and they were on the edge of their seat five and a half hours, which is, you know, you know, you're connecting with them when that's happening. So it just it becomes personal. Look, you just said something to me that was important because when I get to the end of those summations and you know,

these have been put together over the course of my career. Johnny Cochran was a mentor to me when he, after the OJ case, he came to New York, you know, he opened up his firm here. He plucked me out of obscurity and basically took me under his wing for three years. And Johnny and I worked together, know we crafted some Asian stuff like that And I still use some of our material and I did it at the end of this case

But one thing I do is when I go to thank you know Let the jury know that's an honor for me to represent this individual And I think the family turned around to look at rock in and I saw Rihanna. I looked at her. She's crying She's a strong woman Rihanna. I saw her her and she's crying. She's a strong woman, Rihanna. I saw her crying. It hit me like a ton of bricks. I turned around and I couldn't speak for a second. And then my eyes welled up and the jurors looking at me and then two of them started crying.

When I see jurors crying when I'm speaking to them during my summation, I feel pretty good that they were in good shape. You know you got them. You got them. That's why, that was a good shape. You know you got them. Yeah. They were in good shape. Got them. That's why, that was a good question. It's part of how I do it, but it's not like a ploy, it's not a tactic, it's how I really feel.

What gave you the confidence that when they offered you that deal, you said F that? Because the world was like, he's facing 24, he only has to do six months. Six months, which is three months. And community service. And you're a black man in America. First thing I said, I was like, man, why take the deal?

I was thinking take the deal. And I'm thinking it's LA. They're going to let him go on a day anyway because the jails are overpopulated. So what gave you the confidence to be like, I mean, obviously you guys won, but you weren't scared and be like, well, maybe we should just take this deal. And whose idea was it? To not take the deal? Yeah.

Rocky and I had a one minute conversation. Literally one minute. Rocky is there off of, I don't wanna do it, what do you think? Welcome, let's go. Ooh, love that. I mean, can I say that here? Yeah, yeah.

So you didn't even think about it? We thought about it for a second. But it required him to plead guilty to something he didn't do. Required him to say, I'm guilty of assault with a semi-automatic weapon. Seven years suspended sentence, right? Which means he's under the thumb for seven years.

Five years probation. So if he crossed against the red, they could take him back. Yeah, it's six months, which means three months, but it was a career ender for him. It really was. He'll lose deals and stuff. Gucci was gone. I mean, I've been dealing with Gucci for two years on this. Gucci, Puma, all his shows, I've been dealing with Gucci for two years on this Gucci Puma.

You know, all his shows, he couldn't travel out of the country where felony conviction is a life changer for him. And more importantly, he maintains his innocence from the minute I met him three years ago, maintained his innocence. So it was it was a you know, it was really a quick decision. Yeah, people like glad this guy has onions, doing that kind of stuff. Right? How do you do that? But I also felt very confident. I knew we were gonna win this case. At what point do you, so I know that there's like discovery,

so you get to see like what the other side has, so that helps you like craft your defense and stuff like that. But at what point, did you guys have everything? Like you knew everything up front, or were things added as things were going? Were like, you ever got nervous like, hmm? They tried to trick you, they just throw it in. Oh, what about this?

We forgot about this. We picked the jury, you know, I mean, they came with a ballistics report that had been done a year and a half ago. And they said, oh, we just found this now. We missed it. So I'm like, are you kidding me, right? And like that kind of,

those games happened throughout the trial. But you know, whatever. I'm used to that kind of stuff and didn't face. I look, I knew we had a defense. My defense was to eviscerate this ASAP rally this this absolute pathological liar and I eviscerate him in a way that you know I told this jury said you guys had a front-row seat

The history because you just witnessed the worst witness in the history of American jurisprudence Jesus. I mean he Imploded like that by the way, you know, I'm considered, you know top cross examiner Anyone could you know, you could cross examine him. I mean really it was that the guy was was his own worst enemy Have you ever met a man that couldn't rat right? He cursed in a courtroom with a judge a jury he cursed to the jury He told the jury yeah, I lied because I didn't wanna answer this guy's question anymore. He's annoying me.

He said, you're annoying, yeah. Sorry, I don't mean to annoy you. You just want your $30 million and you wanna just leave? You don't wanna answer questions? Like he sued for $30 million with a knuckle scrapes. This guy's a clown and he's a liar. He's a mid-lier, he's a mid-perjurer. He lied at least to this jury 20 times

and was committing perjury. I caught him in multiple, at one point during the estimation I said, oh, this next one's my favorite. This is a perjury miniseries because he lied. I said, it was like this series of lies about whether he shot a gun before November 6th, 2021, the day of the incident.

And he said, no, no, never. I go, you sure never? He goes, yeah, never. I go, what about a shooting range? How about in a never I go you sure never he goes yeah never I go what about a shooting range how about in the shooting range you sure it was absolutely not he goes absolutely not I really gave him a shot I go absolutely not he goes you heard me like in a wire again absolutely not okay pink video him in a shooting like nine millimeter shell casings pop was that on his instagram you pulled it from I got it from his phone. But I guess the prosecutor didn't wanna go through his phone like we did.

See, when I get discovery, there is nothing I won't look at. I'll look at everything. Why would they not go through their client's phone? He took a video of himself from 2021, 2021, I'm sorry. And I guess when he turned over the phone, we got the phone also, as we're entitled to, we did a dump.

I mean, I brought it to an agency, an IT company that does a dump. And I looked at every phone call, every message, and every picture and every video, and I saw these, I was like, whoop, I got the metadata. October 19th, 2021, okay, right before the incident, he's shooting a nine millimeter with shell casings popping back over his shoulder. Of course, don't get our theory was he placed those shell cases

and you know he lied about it and then he lied about the shell case then he lied about where it was I said well where was that shooting range he said you know New Jersey somewhere not in California though just not in California and the point of that was he supposedly traveled back to New York after October 19th. He came back right before the November 6th incident for Complexon or something. And he was there and apparently the point of the prosecutor was like, well he couldn't fly back with shell casings in his bag. So even if he shot, you know, in a shooting range in October a few, two weeks before the incident,

he couldn't have flown with shell casings in a commercial plane we found out the shooting range was in Los Angeles two blocks from the courthouse Wow so I'm like where was the shooting range and he's like no I don't know and not in Los Angeles though not in California I'm like really oh my goodness over the weekend we compared the video to I went to every shooting range in Los Angeles so the same thing. I was like, got him. And then the week on Monday I came back,

he's like, oh, I checked my Instagram. Yeah, it was in Los Angeles, I forgot. I go, oh, you checked your Instagram, huh? Had nothing to do with the post that someone posted one minute before he called the district attorney's office to say, you know, because someone had outed him after I went there and showed that it was a,

the same shooting range in Los Angeles. So he lied about shooting. He lied about shooting a nine millimeter. He lied about where he shot the nine millimeter. And so it was just like this series of lies. And then he lied about how he found it out. He pretended he went back to his phone

just because he wanted to make sure he didn't say anything incorrect. And he found it and he called the DA. It happened to be about one and a half minute after he was tagged on a post showing his video and the shooting went in general. It was just, anyway, that's one example of about 30. So I finally said to the jury at the end of this,

if you can't trust this guy with a matter of importance in your own life or a life of a loved one, which you can never do, and they all agreed with that, you can't trust him with a matter of importance in his life, being a rocker. You just can't trust him with the matter of importance in his life, being Rocky. You just can't. And if you take him out of the equation, there's no proof that there was a shooting.

There is none. It could be or it could be not. And that's not proof beyond reasonable doubt. And that was it. It was a three hour deliberation. Is it true that he, because you said that you thought that he planted the shell cases.

Is it true that the police searched the area, didn't find no shell cases, but then all of a sudden he came with them? Stupid story. So he's claiming Rocky shot two pops. And Rocky did shoot two from a prop gun, a star pistol. And the whole story is why he had that. But if he shot two shots from a real nine millimeter,

10 minutes, seven cops came within 10 minutes with searchlights, those flashlights. They have body cam, thank God. They searched the exact spot where this incident happened. Seven cops, twenty minutes, that's 140 minutes of manpower. And they're looking, they find nothing. Nothing. No evidence of a shooting, no broken, there's a parking lot right next to it.

No cars that were dinged, nothing. He claims he comes back an hour and 45 minutes later, goes to the exact same spot the cops were searching, bends down and finds the two shell cases. I mean. So what happens now? Cause I know you mentioned when you walked out the court, like you want them to pursue him for perjury charges. Yeah, I want them to, they should.

I mean district attorney's office was, and should be embarrassed by this guy. I mean, he absolutely played them like a fiddle. We had a tape, which he first, by the way, a tape of him and one of a mutual friend of Rocky and Rellie's. And he said that there was a recording. And when he heard the beginning of the recording,

he realized what that was. He was like, oh, that's fake. Get that away from me. That's fake. It's not my voice, it's AI. It's like, that's fake, it's AI. So then I had to call the poor guy who made the recording in. Wally.

Wally, so yeah, that's from Paris, he was in Paris, this poor guy. So that's my voice, that's Relly's voice, he said this stuff. I know nothing about this case, but yes, I'm here to authenticate the tape. And on the tape, what Relly's saying is, But yes, I'm here authenticated tape and on the tape what what really saying is If he gives me 30 million I'll disappear to an island and they'll never find me the DA can never find me and they can't prosecute their case You know, it's like, you know, then this is his example not mine It's like, you know when you when you smack your bitch and she files charged against you

If she doesn't show up the case is way weaker than that's what he said on Stan she files charged against you. If she doesn't show up, the case is way weaker than- That's what he said on Stan? No, he said it on the phone call. Oh, on the phone call, yeah. So that's like where his mind goes to. But his thought was, I'm gonna disappear to an island. The DA will never find me.

So I stood behind the two district attorneys. I was like, so they'll never find him like this. And they're just sitting there like, sneaking down in their chairs. I'm like, he tried to sell his criminal case for $30 million. That's called extortion, okay? Sleeking down in their chairs. I'm like he tried to sell his criminal case for 30 million dollars That's called extortion. Okay, so he should be prosecuted for extortion. He admitted perjury He was caught other times committing perjury when he didn't admit it. I mean this guy's a

One man crime spree on the witness stand alone who files those charges against him You are because you told me that you guys have began putting together transcripts Yeah, we're gonna present, you know, we have this video. Fortunately, this thing was on TV, so we also have video. We're gonna bring this to the district attorney's office. I'm sure they'll look at it for a minute and a half and disregard it. You know, they went after Rocky, like, you know,

he was, I don't know, Dillinger, Pablo Escobar. I mean, they got a guy who's not only admitted to crimes on the stand They got caught red-handed committing extortion lied about it and tried to sell the case Now that is to me a perversion of justice And if you're the district attorney and you have somebody trying to sell your criminal case for 30 million dollars, I'd be mad as hell I mean, I used to be a prosecutor. I would go after him with everything I had but you know I don't predict that will what about the prosecutor because in this case right you look at ASAP the prosecutor obviously But what it yeah, that's oh, that's actually water. It's not monsters water

the prosecutor I Guess didn't do their homework right a little bit right so now I'm paying I have to pay for my attorney I have to pay for everything that they did for me, and they have no consequence at all? You can't sue the district attorney, nothing? You just gotta eat that? Yeah, I mean you do. They have sort of this governmental immunity

when they bring charges. As long as they have a good faith basis to bring them, you really can't. The good faith basis is they have a video of Rocky holding what appears to be a gun. And they have another video where, while it's grainy, you do hear an S cam, two pops, pop pop.

So, and he had a witness swearing, despite the fact that his tongue is a stranger to the truth. He did swear, and so that's enough to isolate them from civil damages I don't understand the prop gun thing though. I was like, why would he be having a prop gun for safety? Like that's just yeah It's it's actually what happened. But here's why Rocky this is 2021 right? So he was still you know, he had him he was successful, but he wasn't like Rolling. Mm-hmm crazy though. So he was successful. He didn't like rolling and crazy though so he was

successful he didn't use full-time security 24-7 he does now after this incident does since that day what happened was he did DMV video in July 21 that actually came out in the year later with Rihanna and in that video there was tons of prop guns and there were a lot of videos like you have those things right and so he had just recently gotten slashed in the face in a bar he was jumped he has a slash looks like Scarface right now he has that he had a stalker current at that time in July of 2021 he had a stalker active stalker actually broke through his house he had home invasions he was licensed to possess guns in the home, but not to carry

His security detail and his manager Lulev and ASAP Lue who was just a great guy and a great witness Said you have to if you're not gonna use this full-time You can't carry a gun, but you should at least carry a prop We can make it look like a real gun just to deter people in case someone's coming up to you rolling up and you can take it out. Rocky said, sure, fine. So they took this little Glock, which was really small.

You could put it in your pocketbook. It was a Glock prop gun from the video. You can see it's in the video. They put an extended magazine on it, a little bell clip to make it look more intimidating. So that's what Rocky carried when he didn't have security. And we had two witnesses testify to that. And his inner circle knew that.

So he used it because he couldn't carry a real gun, first of all. And two, he didn't want to carry a real gun because God forbid he has to use it. Then you got to really answer some bad stuff. But so that's why he carried it. I know people like, that sounds like BS, prop gun, prop gun. But what sounds like more BS is that he had a real gun fired off two 9 millimeter shots.

No shell case were found by the police. No damage was done anywhere in one of the shots in that grainy video. His friend ASAP bills and this really were an inch away from like you and I strongly aren't even as close as they were. And he shoots someone's dying. Someone's dying, no one got hit. I mean, it was obvious that that was not a real gun. Otherwise you would have seen things that you would have seen as a matter of fact, the cops on the body cam said, doesn't look like there's any evidence of a shooting here. No, it was inches away from where the computers are, there were the screens are, there was a parking lot

with cars, it was a pay for parking lot. You know, you shoot a gun, a window's gonna break, something's gonna happen, there was nothing, they searched every car. So I think there's, while I get why the prop gun thing is hard for some people to grasp, there's certainly way less evidence that that it was a real gun than a prop gun. Have you ever looked into the night sky and wondered who or what was flying around up there? We've seen planes, helicopters, hot air balloons, and birds. But what if there's something else, something much more ominous that appears under the cover

of night, silent, unseen, watching? They may be right above your car late one night as you cruise down the road, or look like mysterious lights hovering above your home. Drones. Or are they? We used the word drone because it was comfortable to other people. One minute it was there, one minute it wasn't. Oh, that is beyond creepy. Do you feel like this drone

was targeting you specifically? Yes, absolutely. Listen to Obscurum, Invasion of the Drones on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Do you remember what you said the first night I came over here? How?

Goes lower? From Blumhouse TV, I Heart Podcasts, and Ember 20 comes an all new fictional comedy podcast series. Join the flighty Damien Hirst as he unravels the mystery of his vanished boyfriend. And Santi was gone. I've been spending all my time looking for answers about what happened to Santi.

And what's the way to find a missing person? Sleep with everyone he knew, obviously. Hmm, pillow talk. The most unwelcome window into the human psyche. Follow our out-of-his-element hero as he engages in a series of ill-conceived investigative hookups. Mama always used to say, God gave me gumption in place of a gag reflex. And, as I was about to learn,

no amount of showering can wash your hands of a bad hookup. Now, take a big whiff, my brah. Listen to The Hookup on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. Hi, I'm Arturo Castro, and I've been lucky enough to do stuff like Broad City, and Narcos, and Roadhouse, and so many commercials about back pain. And now, I'm starting a podcast because honestly, guys, I don't feel the space is crowded enough.

Get Ready for Greatest Escapes, a new comedy podcast about the wildest true escape stories in history. Each week, I'll be sitting down with some of the most hilarious actors and writers and comedians to tell them a buckwild tale from across history and time. People like Ed Helms, Diane Guerrero, Joseph Gordon-Levitt, and Zoe Chow. Titanic. Charles Manson. Alcatraz.

Asada Shakur. The sketchy guy named Steve. It's giving funny true crime. I love storytelling and I love you, so I can't wait. Listen and subscribe to Greatest Escapes on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is John Cameron Mitchell and my new fiction podcast series, Cancellation Island, stars Holly Hunter as Karen, a wellness influencer who launches a rehab for the recently cancelled.

In the future, we will all be cancelled for 15 minutes. But don't worry, we'll take you from broke to woke or your money back. Cancellation Island's revolutionary rehab therapies like Bad Touch Football, Anti-Racism Spin Class, and mandatory Ayahuasca ceremonies are designed to force the cancel to confront their worst impulses. But everything starts to fall apart when people start disappearing. Karen, where have you brought us?

Cancellation Island, where a second chance might just be your last Listen to Cancellation Island on the iHeartRadio app Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts What about this civil suit that Wally filed whenever I'm not well I'm sorry that really foul when everything first started moving. It was the it's a defamation suit against Rocky. No, it's an assault suit against Rocky, defamation suit against me. Against you, yes. Yeah, there's two of them.

So, are you now gonna submit to file for dismissal? Look, that case is running its course. I'm dealing with it on my own with Rocky. Rocky has his assault case. I mean, that thing is on life support now, obviously. I't imagine this guy ever want to get back on a witness stand again. You know he He can't withstand it. I mean he was again a horrible witness even you know there were people inside that courtroom You know who are there who were part of this process who said? How do they proceed with this guy?

It makes no sense and and they And they did, you know. But we had a prosecutor who was hell bent on winning. Not doing justice, hell bent on winning. And when you have that, it's a dangerous thing. Because they have the weight of law enforcement behind them. And a prosecutor's job, and I used to be one, is not solely to just secure a conviction. It's to make sure you're doing right.

And when a witness continually lies on a witness stand and purges himself and you know that they are, you know, sometimes it's okay to take a step back and reevaluate. So in your opinion, it's because he's a celebrity that that prosecutor probably thought this was his case. This was the one that's gonna put him on the map. Look, this prosecutor has quite a history,

let's put it that way. He was the DIRS prosecutor, okay? So he was then sidelined and benched for some misconduct that apparently he had committed in the Durst case, I don't need to get into it now. But it was his like coming back party. Like this was his first big trial since Durst after the old DA put him to some administrative part, right?

So he took this, like this was his chance to come back. High profile case on TV. He wanted, like this was his chance to come back, high profile case on TV. He wanted to, this was his comeback party. And you know, he got schooled. He got schooled and got put back in his little corner because he was, and he was nasty. I gotta be honest with you, I don't like saying that. Again, 120 jury trials I've had.

And I've gone head to head with opponents, with adversaries who have been hard charged like me. I can respect that, we don't have to like each other, but we can respect each other and not make it personal. This guy was off the rails. But then I spoke to other lawyers like David Chesnoff, who tried, was a great lawyer from Las Vegas, who tried the Durst case.

He said he almost went to blows with him, which, you know, we came close a few times too. I got right in my face for that. That Brooklyn almost came out to you, huh? The Brooklyn was out, doesn't ever go away. But when this guy got into my face, I looked and I said, you're gonna get hurt. You're making a mistake.

I need you to back up, man, real quick. And you know, whatever. It was just. Did you have that coat before or after the case? I had it. No, he's been getting ready. I had this before, it's freezing outside. I barely wear this.

You should've asked about the watch. I was about to say. You had the the watch before that's what you should ask Yeah, yeah in Santa Barbara Wow, how was that? That was crazy, too That was really crazy mezzer was lead lawyer in that case when I was younger But it was um, yeah, it was a nutty case and that was you know, there was another Sort of travesty of justice. I mean whatever issues had, that was not the right case to bring against him. He was innocent, he was found not guilty. And I worked with his manager, Frank Cascio,

and then when I resolved Frank's case, they asked me to stay on and work with Michael. And I did, and that case was, yeah, I mean, it was sad, because, and he was already under the influence of Dr. Murray at that point, and it was, you know, you could see there was something missing. I wanna know what you learned from these cases, right?

Because to me, I always say it's gotta be extremely difficult to be in this game nowadays with social media. Because don't they tell jurors, hey, you're not supposed to watch television, you're not supposed to turn on social media. But how do you not be on YouTube? How do you not be on your phone? How do you not see all of these things?

You don't even have to be on YouTube. I mean, I opened my phone and there was the thing of our case like, you know, right there, like on social media, it comes at you. You don't have to go look for it, it comes at you. So I don't really know how that works anymore. You know, you have to trust that the jurors are gonna listen to the court's instructions,

which are do not read about this case. If you see something, don't look at it, go past it. But human beings are human beings, right? I mean, the more you tell them that, the more they're gonna be like, what's out there? I wanna look at it, right? So I don't believe that they are completely

insulated from all the press and stuff like that. I think at the end of the day though, they do make their decisions on what they see. I deal with that in my summation by saying, look, you know, people who come in and out of the courtroom and sit for 10 minutes of testimony or the most important day or the summations, they don't know this case.

You're the only ones who have sat here for four weeks for every minute of the testimony, and you're the only ones who know all the facts. So whatever anyone else is saying, it's irrelevant. What matters is what you think. You are the judges of the facts in this case, you. And I empower that jury and we did it here. What's crazy about this case though is this, this. We're in downtown LA, right? In the court, same floor as the OJ trial. We were the courtroom across from it, right? Cause this is where all the high profile cases go there,

on the ninth floor. The OJ trial, and again, very close friends with Johnny, he was my mentor, Bob Shapiro's a dear friend of mine. They had eight black jurors, downtown Los Angeles, right? Fine, fair. We, in our jury selection in Rocky's case, I didn't get to say hello to a black jurors, downtown Los Angeles, right? It's fine, fair. We, in our jury selection in Rocky's case, I didn't get to say hello to a black juror. Wow. It's not like we didn't pick one.

We didn't even get to say hello. Out of 106 jurors that were brought in for the panel, four were African-American, four. And the first one was like number 70. So I couldn't get to them unless like the first 30 jurors decided they weren't showing up or something. It was it was troubling to me. And Reverend Sharpton came out hard. He called me. He's like, Joe, my reading this, right?

Oh, yeah, wherever you are. And you know, Reverend Sharpton came out, put out a really harsh statement just to make sure that he got a fair trial. So look, I didn't I'm not I grew up in Brownsville, Brooklyn, okay? I thought I was a light-skinned black growing up, so I didn't even know the difference. And I never judged people by the color of their skin, only by the content of the character, right?

And so for me, it doesn't really matter. If I see good people, I want the smart and good people here. And I believe I got them, obviously we got them. So, but I believed I had them. So it wasn't so much we didn't have a black person, we needed a black person. But I believed I had them so it wasn't so much we have a black person We need a black person But I did tell this jury at the end at some point during that summation I said that you represent the conscience of this community you decide what's right and what's wrong because you're gonna send the message out

But you represent the entire community when I say the entire community I mean the community you're all from different parts of Los, right? And also you represent Compton and Englewood. I just said that to make sure, and Rocky told me he was really moved by that because obviously that's a large African-American population in Compton and Englewood. And I said that to just remind this jury, you're representing his peers also.

You're supposed to have a jury of peers. There was like, you know, none representing, but we were good. We were good because I just got jurors who, I mean, I had a rocket scientist on this jury. You understand what I'm saying? I didn't even know that was a real thing. I thought you'd say, oh, I'm no rocket scientist. I'm like, yo, oh, you're no rocket scientist.

I thought it was just a phrase. This woman was a rocket scientist. She was a scientist who built rockets, spaceships. I was like, I said, you're really a rocket scientist? I was like, I want you just, so we had a rocket scientist on the show. We had a smart jury. Wow.

We had a, there was someone who worked in weapons, right? Yeah, we had a woman who was a pistol instructor. We thought that you weren't gonna want her on that case. A lot of people thought that. Everyone thought that. I love that. I love when people think they know more than I do. Oh, the Twitter, the Twitter, the Twitter jury, we were breaking it down and we were

like, there's no way that he's going to want her on that case, but it's telling if he does or he doesn't. I want her. And when you welcomed her, I was like, oh, he's so smart. Yep. I wanted her because the ballistics evidence actually worked in our favor in this case. One, two, her dad was a criminal defense attorney. Oh, okay. I didn't know that fact. I also thought she would understand.

And then she said one other thing during jury selection. You know, I talked about right now, Rocky's intention was always to testify, always. But we decided we had crippled their case so badly at the end that I didn't want to shift the focus of Raleigh's glorious train wreck to Rocky's testimony. And we decided it wasn't worth him testifying

because he already had the witnesses. He was just gonna corroborate or reaffirm what witnesses had already testified too. And then that prosecutor would be yelling at him for four days, you know. That's what you think. I put on a witness for 10 minutes and he cross-examined for three and a half hours

screaming at him. Which didn't go over well, I don't think, with the jury, but putting that aside, I didn't want to get away from Relly's testimony. I didn't want there to be too much time between the end of the summations and his testimony. So we didn't call Rocky, but we planned on it. But still, I asked the jurors, I said, do any of you have a problem if the defendant

doesn't testify? Because the judge's gonna instruct you, you can't consider that. And that juror, the pistol instructor, whose father was a criminal defense attorney, looked at me and said, I wouldn't testify if I were a criminal defendant. There's no way I would testify. And I just remember that thinking, okay, she gets it. She understands why that's important. Because most people say, no, why wouldn't he testify?

If I were in, I said, I wanna testify. It's not that simple. It's just not that simple. How do you help a hurt? And it's kind of a little layered question, but like, you know, I asked the celebrity help or hurt in cases like this, because I know when you're a juror,

they'll ask you questions about Rocky, but did they ask the jurors about Rihanna? A lot of, they did. Oh, they were obsessed with Rihanna. It was ridiculous. Okay. It might get stolen now. We got a microphone here for you.

It might get stolen. No. No. He'll sue you and he'll prosecute you, all right? Go ahead. A$AP Joe got people out here, don't even put him. No, that's right. You know, they were obsessed with, I loved it. He'll sue you and prosecute you, all right? Go ahead. A$AP Joe got people out here, don't even pay attention. That's right.

You know, they were obsessed with, I loved it. I mean, they were just so obsessed with Rihanna. I didn't make her part of this case. She wasn't part of the case. The jury knows who Rihanna is. They know who she is compared to, you know, in relation to Rocky. They saw her there every day.

So I didn't need to inject her into the case to make it like we were playing on her celebrity status. Quite frankly, I don't think jurors were gonna acquit him because, oh, here's Rihanna, so let's be damned with the evidence, let's just acquit him. But they were so obsessed with focusing on Rihanna. Oh, Rihanna, you have to treat everyone equally. It's because Rihanna's here. I was like, keep going, man. Just keep going. Keep reminding them that Rihanna's here and talk about her, because if I did that, it would look like I was pandering.

I don't think that mattered at all. I honestly don't. I mean, I think they looked at the evidence. I mean, look, if Relly turned out to be a great witness and I couldn't destroy him like I did, I don't think the jury would care that Rihanna was sitting there. The first couple days though of the trial, she wasn't there, but then she came that Wednesday,

I believe it was that Wednesday. Why wasn't she there those first couple days? Because the kids were in New York with her because the LA fires were still going. Okay. And they're very protective. She's a mother hen. She's really protective of those boys. And you know, the air quality was really bad. That first week of that trial, and my eyes were like, I would walk out of court. I was staying downtown LA from,

so I had a two block walk to my hotel and it was pretty bad. I mean, you felt something, you smelled something. So I think it was an air quality issue and she kept the boys away and she doesn't go anywhere with those kids. So she wasn't gonna leave them in New York and come here. We knew this was gonna be a long trial.

So she made it. What are the name and the next baby? Oh, sorry. Go ahead. The name and the next baby after you. A$AP Joe. A$AP Joe. And she told me that.

So that means we not gonna get a Rihanna album cause they're about to have to make a baby. So it's all your fault. Sorry, sorry. But Rocky's album's coming out soon and that thing is fire. I mean, I heard some songs on that. So it's all your fault. Sorry, sorry. But Rocky's album's coming out soon and that thing is fire. I mean, I heard some songs on that, oof. I mean, he does some, he's a little different.

Like he's not, you know, this next album's gonna be different than anything I've ever heard anyway. I like how you skated around that. You think you're gonna be in the wedding? Let's see what you did there. You think you're gonna be in the wedding? If I'm not the best man, there's a problem.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I was gonna ask, you know, when you take a case, do you have to believe the person? I have to believe in the person. Break that down. So look, I don't prejudge anyone. I'm not the judge during execution, all right? I've represented people who have probably done what they've been accused of doing.

But it doesn't mean they're bad people and don't deserve representation. If we all had our worst 10 minutes of our lives captured on video or something like that, I don't think we'd all be happy, right? If I love a person or think they're really good people and they just made a mistake, I can deal with that. I'm not going to suborn perjury. I'm not going to make up a story, but I'll help them get through it. And sometimes that means just mitigating the damage, right?

Sometimes. With Meek's case, for example, right? Meek, you know, committed a crime. He pled guilty to it, but this judge in Philly was obsessed with him and had him under probation for over 10 years. No one ever, ever. He was a kid. He was a teenager when his crime was committed. 10 years later, he had him under probation for over 10 years. No one ever, ever. He was a kid.

He was a teenager when his crime was committed. Ten years later, he's still in the probation. If he came to court with white socks, boom, two more years probation. She wanted him under his thumb. She wanted him to make a record about her. It's like she was it was an issue going on there. So it wasn't like we were saying me was innocent, innocent, but he served his his his, you know, his sentence and he was being abused by the system.

And the district attorney came around and agreed with us. And eventually I got that dismissed. We resolved the case and that judge was relocated to a civil park. And you a legend, Joe. Yeah, did you know that the Free Meek Mill movement was going to be as big as it was when you signed on to that? Cause it grew so insanely. That was crazy, no.

Cause at first, honestly, you know, I didn't realize how big that was and how loved that guy was, especially in Philly. I mean, he's like Rocky in Philly, right? And so I called Reverend Al, who I'm very close with, and the Reverend I Said can you come to Philly with me and to visit him in jail and maybe Make a stand here. This judge is really giving them once over and

You know, I think I need your help on this one and Reverend said to me one thing Is he a good guy Joe? Am I getting embarrassed to see good guys? No, no Reverend. You will not get embarrassed here It's worth it. He's a good guy. more importantly, he's getting run over by the system. And he has the wherewithal, he has a voice. That means 99% of the people in that system in Philly don't have that voice, don't have the wherewithal, and again, trampled on. And it's true, they reformed that whole probation system

in Philadelphia because of Meek in our case. It put a spotlight on it, you know? So it was an important case for a lot of reasons. Have you ever looked into the night sky and wondered who or what was flying around up there? We've seen planes, helicopters, hot air balloons, and birds, but what if there's something else, something much more ominous, that appears under the cover of night, silent, unseen, watching?

They may be right above your car late one night as you cruise down the road, or look like mysterious lights hovering above your home. Drones. Or are they? or look like mysterious lights hovering above your home? Drones, or are they? We used the word drone because it was comfortable to other people. One minute it was there, one minute it wasn't. Oh, that is beyond creepy.

Do you feel like this drone was targeting you specifically? Yes, absolutely. Listen to Obscurum, Invasion of the Drones on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Do you remember what you said the first night I came over here?

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to your favorite shows. Hi, I'm Arturo Castro, and I've been lucky enough to do stuff like Broad City and Narcos and Roadhouse and so many commercials about back pain. And now I'm starting a podcast because honestly guys, I don't feel the space is crowded enough. Get Ready for Greatest Escapes, a new comedy podcast about the wildest true escape stories in history. Each week I'll be sitting down with some of the most hilarious actors and writers and

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It's giving funny true crime. I love storytelling and I love you, so I can't wait. Listen and subscribe to Greatest Escapes on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is John Cameron Mitchell and my new fiction podcast series, Cancellation Island, stars Holly Hunter as Karen, a wellness influencer who launches a rehab for the recently canceled. In the future, we will all be canceled for 15 minutes.

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How did you get your reputation like how did you become the person that people like Donald Trump and Daniel Snyder and Michael Jackson How do you become that guy you know? Results at the end of the day its results right I mean you had to have a first big case that put your name on the record. I was a prosecutor. I was Deputy Chief of Homicide in Brooklyn. You know, and I did well there. But then I left and, you know, I was doing well. My first case was a police corruption case

that called the Morgue Boys. Those guys were cops who were alleged to have been robbing drug dealers in East New York and then splitting them up in the in a morgue factory. And that was what? This gave me power like the 50 Cent Shop. But go ahead. So anyway that was my first on the front page of New York Times. So I'm like a month out of the DA's office. I have this nationally important case. You know very important case. I got my guy off. I got acquittal. And from there I went on some talk shows to talk about it and then I started with that the Kenneth Marino case. No, that's later

Oh, that's later. Okay. Okay. This was like, you know Michael Dowd was the main witness to the Mullen Commission. That was like this was we're talking about like 90 early 90s. Yeah, and then Then you know just sort of steamrolled from there a little bit. I started getting case after case. I started representing a lot of cops at first. And then rappers like Rakim came to me on a little thing.

Foxy, right? Foxy put out a great post yesterday or something like that. A picture of us. I looked like I was 12 years old in that picture. But Foxy was awesome. My God, who's this? I had all these old school gangster rappers, right? Sticky Fingers, Formonix, and stuff like that.

So I started getting to that world a little bit. And I'm working hard. And then I had some good cases, I had some good wins. People think I was gonna win these cases. And I started winning cases. And then Johnny came, Cochran, fresh off the heels of OJ right so and he looked me up someone said something about me and he looked me up he said I heard a lot of good things about you I got a call from him

I'm like okay yes Johnny Cochran sure. I didn't believe it, I didn't know him and he said can you meet me at my office? I was like okay I'm gonna check your office. Again I thought this was like a candy camera prank or something. I went there and it was him. And he just like, I love your style, I love what you do. I've seen your work, I've read your transcripts. You're gonna be a star, you're gonna be me.

And I was like, really, you think that? And I mean, I was confident in myself. I had some good wins early on. And he just like, just yes, let's hang together and let's do some things together. I'm like, okay. I was like, oh my God, Johnny Cochran. And it helped.

It was a great thing for me. And I was still a young lawyer and he's then sent me some work. And then it just happens. Then once you win a big case and you're in the game, then all of a sudden, just started, just started that way. I got Foxy off of a a few things she had a little cell

phone problem kept slipping out of her hands hitting people in the head by accident. Do you ever fear any retaliation because you know they describe they described you as the most hated lawyer in New York City because you take on a lot of controversial cases. That was I love that that they described it was one anonymous prosecutor's ass I kicked sure, I mean, that was, I love that, they describe it, it was one anonymous prosecutor's ass I kicked, and I know the case. That was a quote to the New York Post, of course the New York Post then, they sat.

Most hated lawyer in New York, no, one person said that. I'm sure a lot of people hate me, nope, nope. I don't give a crap if a lot of people hate me. I know, I can look myself in the mirror, I'm a hard charger, I don't make friends when I go into a courtroom. I look to defend the person I'm standing next to. And if it means I ruffle a few feathers, so be it.

I really don't care. But, you know, it's not controversial cases. Anyone who's charged with bad things, you know, needs a criminal defense attorney. I don't know if that makes it controversial, but yes. They're talking about the rape cops case. Yeah, that was the Kenneth Moreno case. Yeah, that was Moreno, which I won,

and no one thought they could win because he was on wire, she was wired, and he acknowledged what they claimed he did. How do you win something like that? Well, I said basically he told her what she wanted to hear, calm her down, and I used science in that case. That case was a science case. It was scientifically that it wasn't consistent with the rape, and I used science in that case. That case was a science case that it was scientifically

that it was against system with the rape and and I believed it by the way, just so you know. And you know, we put on scientific evidence and I had him testify. And he described his actions in the contact and it wasn't all right. He did make misconduct like he, you know, he was a recovering alcoholic. She was blackout drunk and he was trying to help her. And so he went back to the apartment multiple times that night. But the jury believed him. And that jury was also another,

I pick smart juries when I need people to understand intricate defenses. I had five Ivy Leagues on that jury. That was, which people like, you're crazy. Most people think defense attorneys want the dumbest jurors you can find. I don't, I want people who can understand what the burdens are, the proof beyond reasonable doubt

to me is, you know, you don't talk, we don't walk around going, hey, I don't know, did you prove that beyond reasonable doubt to me? You don't do that in a daily life. But that's the highest standard law allows. I mean, you know, in a civil case, mere preponderance, I can bankrupt you, take your money, take your house on a 51% to 49% verdict. That's mere preponderance, right?

Preponderance of the events. Criminal case, that doesn't mean anything. I could take your child away on clear and convincing evidence, right? That's the standard, higher than preponderance. I could literally, a parent could lose custody of a child on clear and convincing evidence. That is not enough to convict someone in this country You have to go to the highest standard law permits, which is proof beyond a reasonable doubt And and when I sort of make sure the jury understands how high that is. It's not he probably commit the crime

It's not I think he committed the crime. It's not it's very likely committed the crime. It's not I'm almost certain He committed the crime. It's I have no reason to doubt he committed the crime That's a real high standard and I have to make sure the jury understands the crime. I have no reason to doubt he committed the crime. That's a real high standard, and I have to make sure that Drew understands that. And then I list the reasons to doubt. So, you know, it's, I take on these cases that I believe in. I've turned down a lot of cases, a lot of cases,

that could be lucrative or even very high profile. Harvey Weinstein was one. He'd try to hire me and I wouldn't. Why not, Weinstein? I told you that thing about having a bond with somebody. Yeah. You know, people would be charged with some horrific things but I liked, I could tell it was good inside of them

or I just had a good connection with them. You didn't feel that with him? No, no, did not feel that with him. Really? No, did not feel that with him. Let me ask you a question. Hold on, real quick, because that's interesting. With the, you represented Donald Trump in the Stormy Daniels case. I did not feel that with him. Let me ask you a question. Hold on, real quick, because that's interesting.

You represented Donald Trump in the Stormy Daniels case. Was there ever even a chance of you winning that? And the reason I ask that is because it was politicized. You know what I mean? It was politicized, it was all over the media, everybody knew it was a target on Trump. Like, they wanted to nail him. No doubt.

That was not a case that would have been brought before anyone. And I mean that. Whatever your opinions are of Trump, I'm talking about the defendant. That case would never have been brought if it were not him. It was a case of first impression. Think about it. It was a settlement of a personal matter, right? An alleged, you know, affair. Consensual. Nothing like, I don't know. But, you know, fair, consensual, nothing like that. But you know, she was basically trying to get money from him to keep it quiet. He paid her. Whether it happened or didn't happen is irrelevant. He paid her some money. End of story.

He didn't take a tax deduction on it. He didn't file it in his campaign thing. I mean, he paid her personal money. Somehow they try to make that into a false filing in his own records. So because he put, you know, payment legal fees a false filing in his own records So because he put you know payment legal fees, whatever in his internal records this attorney charged him I'd never said how it how that was a charge. It's not it's not it wasn't and I don't think it would have held up in court, but you know all the things that happened have happened I I actually didn't try that I stepped out I beat the rape charge for Jean Carroll. That's the one I was involved in happened. I actually didn't try that. I stepped out from representing the man after that.

I beat the rape charge for Gene Carroll. That's the one I was involved in. Oh, okay. The charge of rape allegation. And we won that. He was then clipped with sexual misconduct, sexual and the defamation of her. But, and look, here's the bottom line. He cannot win a New York jury trial. You just can never do it. It's just never happening. So that's a different thing. That was a different thing altogether.

Is there like an ethics thing for your attorneys where like, cause I'm just sitting here thinking like, you representing Trump, like people right now love everything about what you're doing because of ASAP, right? But I'm sure during you representing Trump, they probably thought you were like. They hated you.

Exactly. Some, and then the others loved me. Like it's like, you know, when I represented Lilo Brancato, right? The Sopranos actor. He killed the police officer. Yeah. Allegedly, allegedly.

I'm sorry. No, it's true, I'm sorry. The guy, he and some other guy were breaking in to get some drugs from my house. They were both addicts, like crazy addicts. They were going into a house of a friend who used to give them drugs and he was already dead. So the drugs were in, break in, cop, the neighbor sees it,

the other guy shoots him dead. Lilo doesn't have a gun, he doesn't know the guy has a gun. The other guy got life in prison, then Lilo went to trial, they charged him with murder, accessory to murder, which is the same as murder. And we beat that, and we beat it because we had to present a case with Lilo Testified and we proved that he did not know that this other guy, Armento, had a gun. Now, I just told you I represent all these cops

in different cases, major cases, the Lehman case, all these cases. That day. Ooh. Ooh. I mean, Pat Lynch was like, in the hole, we almostfight like so, you know, I'm a chameleon I guess I'm representing whoever I present at that particular moment You know when I represent Trump a lot of people hate me for that. I represent when I represent

someone like You know Rocky or meek other people hate me for that. And I don't care, I don't lose sleep. I have mirrors, as long as I can look in the mirror and I do the right thing and I don't mess around. And again, as long as I'm comfortable, like with the Trump thing, I thought the case I got involved in,

I thought were absolute BS, I really did. With certain cases, I wouldn't get involved in. When you take a step back, right, and I'm sure people have asked you a million and one times, and you look at, for example, this Diddy case, would you do a lot of things different than his attorneys actually doing? Because it seems like they're already losing,

and it doesn't make sense. What would you do different? Well, I wouldn't go out in the press and make pronouncements that are later disproved quickly because you sent the loose credibility. I mean, there's this whole thing like this stupid baby oil thing, right? Who cares, first of all, how many miles of baby lotion he had in his house, right? But that became like this battle line.

And they went out and said, he just bought him in bulk at Costco, right down the block from his house and that's why he has it. So big nobody really bought baby lotion. First of all, it's a thousand bottles, no one buys a thousand bottles of baby lotion in bulk. But that was what he said. Of course, Costco then comes out with a statement, no, we've never sold baby lotion in our life. Jesus.

Not one Costco store ever sold baby lotion. So boom, now it looks like somebody's lying, right? You don't need that kind of stuff. Or the Cassie video too. And they came out strong before the video dropped. That was before you charged. Now look, here's the thing with the Cassie video. That's horrible.

Cringe worthy, right? You don't do that. You don't put your hand on a woman. I don't care what the story is. Just I wouldn't anyway, not how I grew up. Right. But that's not, what does that have to do with these non-consensual, what are they called, freak off things?

Freak off, yeah. Freak off. What did that video have to do with that though? Right? And I would say, and that's the one count of the trafficking. She's the one person in the trafficking count. What does that video have to do? Okay, maybe she should be charged with domestic violence in state court What does that have to do with a?

non-consensual freak off where people are being alleged to have Non-consensual, you know Sex because they're drugged up and they're being gang raped or whatever I don't see why that video was so of course that video has been played and showed and people think like oh he's guilty But he's guilty a lot like assault of a woman who was his girlfriend that doesn't make him guilty of everything else now I don't know enough about the case. I was asked to take a look at the case as another case I said, I would not be interested. Really? I just want to know Same reason connection is it's different a little bit. I represent rock nation, a lot of people in rock.

I'm very close with Jay and Desiree Perez who's most amazing. Love them. Bomb of a boss, Jay's amazing. You know, Jay Brown, all those people are just, like they really are special, special people. And they, you know, that's sort of family to me. And you know, I don't think they're sort of.

See eye to eye on things. See eye to eye with. Last question on that. Do you think he should have got it, Dale? Say that again, please. I don't think they see eye to eye with P. Diddy. I just wanna throw that out there. Because you know, remember everybody was saying.

They were best friends. They were like, Jay said they weren't friends. Everybody was like, uh-uh. They were in pictures together all the time. Everyone was in pictures with P. Diddy at one time or another, because they went to a party. But when things got real years and years ago, you know. It is Seattle.

Do you think he should have got a bail? And do you think he didn't get a bail? Yes, he should have got a bail. Break that down, because I said the same thing. People thought I was crazy. No, no, no, what, what? I mean, he was willing, first of all, it was another mistake I thought they made,

saying, oh, he'll have a ankle bracelet and stay in this mansion in Miami. And monitor who comes in and what. Case in New York, staying at a resort in Miami with a pool is not exactly really something I would offer up to a court. What I would have said, remember that guy, DKS, the French guy who was charged here

with the rape of a maiden hotel, I forget his name, Dominic Strauss-Kahn. His bail, he got bail. And the reason he got bail was he said, I'll rent a place here in New York. I will stay inside. I'll pay for security. I'll have a brace on. That's a concession. I think maybe if they had done that

from the beginning, that may have been something that happened. Look, I don't, you know, there's a presumption of innocence that we still have to not, you know, people have forgotten that in this country a lot. He is innocent right now. He did, he's innocent. Whatever you think of him, whatever you think the, you know, the evidence would be, no one's seen a minute of testimony yet. He's presumed innocent until and unless the prosecution proves that case beyond reasonable doubt. They may do it one day, but not today. And you know, to keep someone in jail for a year, awaiting trial, they have to either be a flight risk or a danger to the community or they've done something so horrific like a murder, right, where, you know, bail is not necessarily common.

This is a case of having parties that got out of hand and there's allegations of sexual misconduct, okay? I just don't see how you as an attorney can do, like when the court of public opinion has already convicted somebody, which it seems like they have with Diddy, that's gotta make your job so difficult in the court of law. How do you, because every juror turns on the news,

it's all over the news, it's on social media. And even with the video you mentioned, I feel like even though he's not, I mean, he's not convicted of anything in relation to that video, but the picture that it paints, I don't see how an attorney wins after that because... Well, you have to be smart.

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Spin Class and mandatory Ayahuasca ceremonies are designed to force the cancelled to confront their worst impulses. But everything starts to fall apart when people start disappearing. Karen, where have you brought us? Cancellation Island, where a second chance might just be your last. Listen to Cancellation Island on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. In the rape cops case, for instance, I'll tell you an example of Rocky also in the rape cops case.

These guys before trial were called rape cops, rape cops. We're picking a jury. They called the rape cops case, not alleged rape cops case, rape cops. I fronted with the jury. I said, you guys understand that they've been called rape cops for years. Before you heard a minute of testimony, they've been deemed rape cops for years before you heard a minute of testimony. They've been deemed rough community crime You guys should take a fancy to that Because we as a society don't want to be

Judged by the press and deemed guilty before we've had a chance to have a due process I hear it we then saw failing as a society if we do that look a great example modern-day example Not so much modern anymore, but still relatively recent, is that Richard Jewell guy. Remember that guy from the Atlanta Olympics? They made a movie, one of the best movies ever called Jewell. He was the heavy security guard, the bomber. They said the Olympic bomber in the Atlanta Olympics. They said he was the guy, the fat guy,

who planted, they said planted a bomb in the Atlanta Olympics that went off. And they, you know, FBI was all over him. He was, you know, he was sort of a hapless guy. The guy was a security guard. They say he planted his bomb. And he was condemned and the world had convicted him. As a matter of fact, you know, there was that Ted Kaczynski, the Montana bomber, the Unabomber.

So they called this guy, to make fun of him, the Unablubber. And it was basically they condemned him and there was no lawyer who would touch his case and he didn't have any money. And some like you know lawyer who worked in social work services basically said, well let me see, I don't think I can help you, but he started looking at it and all of a sudden little by little things didn't add up, and the FBI was playing some games, and it turned out this guy was stone cold innocent, and he was actually a hero. He was actually trying to smooth the bag that blew up,

and people saw him next to it, and they thought he was the guy who planted it, and he was exonerated. He was totally 100% exonerated, but his life was over. Like, he had a year of being called a murderer being called a murderer a bomber terrorist making fun of him Calling him the Uniblover and and the truth is never as loud as the lie Right and then and then and then what happens he died of a heart attack like six months later Like he's just was heart was broken his life was over and it was really sad that they have a great movie called jewel

It's called jewel and if you know you want to see how our system could really screw up a life, watch that movie. That's scary. Do you feel like, as a community, we don't do enough as far as jury duty is concerned? Like, you talk about 170 people and it was five. And I talked about this on the air. A lot of times, it's effed up,

because we don't wanna go to court. We don't wanna spend that time. But then, when we do something wrong, or when we're on trial, we don't have our peers. Yeah You know, that's what some people told me You know, they were like, I'm like, how could this be? I thought it was I really thought it was a plant like I was like this setting this up They said this is a setup. There's no way in downtown LA You know

They moved they were thinking about moving the OJ trial to Santa Monica to get it out of downtown LA, so there wouldn't be so many blacks, right? And the DA said, no, no, we don't want to give the appearance that we're doing that, so because it was on the heels of Rodney King. So they kept it in downtown LA and we had eight black jurors. When they filed in, I was like, I mean, I was the blackest guy in the room, aside from Rocky, like me. So I'm like, what mean I was the blackest guy in the room, aside from Rocky, like me. So I'm like, what is going on here?

And it was just, it was odd. But so someone said to me, well, you know, the summons go out, the jury summons go out, we can't force people to respond and show up, you know? So I'd say to the community, you gotta, you gotta show up to represent because then, then you know, the day we need and we be This community the day that that's needed to be represented

So you have a jury of your peers, you know If you don't show up your you're you're failing each other and I think that's important. That's a great point Did you have I have one more diddy question and did another ASAP question? All right so for diddy would you have advised him if you were if you were his attorney when Caskey first reached out to just pay the money? Listen to me, that was the honestly, and I don't, I hate talking to other attorneys because attorneys who do that, believe me, there was so many jealous people of me that I've heard people say, oh, he's not a good trial, he's not a good this. And all I do is win. And

then this last case was on national TV. So people could see me cross examine, see my five hour summation with like, holy cow. But there are haters out there and people who just say negative things to make themselves feel better because they don't have good self-worth, right? And then one talks negatively about other people,

publicly anyway, it's just because they feel bad about themselves. I truly believe that. That being said, I don't like the bad mouth of the lawyers, but I'm just gonna talk facts here. That strategy, that was a legal train wreck. What happened was this all could have been avoided. This all could have been avoided.

He had that case with Cassie, right? And it was all about a civil case, civil. There was no prosecutors involved, no FBI, nothing. They wanted a settlement and you know these lawyers said you know no, they were closed no, but no and they said well we're gonna file a lawsuit if you don't give us a settlement and like you know go ahead then. Bad, bad move. You know especially knowing a tape exists and all that like that's insane. I think they underestimated her voice, like what she was going to do,

how people would consider. How people would respond. Look at this day and age now. This day and age, the cancel culture. My God, people get accused of anything. Gone, you're gone. Like that's it. You don't even get a chance to defend yourself.

Just the accusations enough to cripple somebody and destroy a career. Right, so that happens. He went from being on top of the hill, you know, whispers always about him, whatever, but he went from being on top of the hill to boom, like pariah. No one wanted to even pretend they knew him. And look what happened. They filed that lawsuit and what do you get? You get Red Ink, End of the World headlines, right? Diddy rapists, rape all this crazy stuff and what do they do? The worst once you let that happen you now have to fight you have to fight that suit you have to

but instead the day after they filed it they settled and so what that was it was an admission and then it opened up the floodgates you notice what happened right after that right? And then it opened up the floodgates. You notice what happened right after that, right? Right. Woof! Everyone who ever met him. Me too, I want the money too. He did that to me. There was 20, 30, 40. Then the FBI was like, wait, what? All these women? So some of them were going to law enforcement, some were going to civil attorneys.

But it was an avalanche that came around him. And the only reason it happened is because they didn't sell that case simply. Because if that Cassie case was settled and went away, no one would have heard anything. There were no other people coming after Diddy until that thing was filed. So if you're going to settle, you settle before they file the lawsuit. That's what you're settling for, to prevent that public damage. But you don't let them file it and then settle the day later. That's the worst of all worlds because then it's an admission and then bam.

And you can't give them the benefit of the doubt because he lied to us about Cassidy and the video comes out. So now it's just like everything else you hear, you like, I don't know what's true and what's not true. And none of that would have happened if he settled. Which is crazy. If he had to do a roll over again, you know he'd give her a hundred million, whatever.

Because what's his life worth? Because now... I want to ask you something too. I only got a couple more questions. You worked on the Michael Jackson case. Is it true that Johnny Cochran told Michael Jackson once, don't settle with anybody because when you settle you become a piggy bank? Yep. Wow. Do you feel that way for all cases? Not for all cases? Not for all cases. I think each case is different, right?

Michael was different. If Michael sold the case, somehow it was out there in the press. Michael was Michael. There's only one Michael Jackson, right? So I know Johnny did say that to him. But he was right to say that to him. But not every case. Sometimes a settlement is a good thing because it just, was right to say that to him but not every case you know sometimes a settlement is a good thing because it just not because you did it or because

you won a mission but you just take Diddy as an example sometimes a settlement will save more money than you could ever imagine later and more heartache he actually did it I'm talking about people who because I've seen cases where people would settle just because they don't want the bad press and they don't want to end up spending a whole bunch of money in court for the next four or five years. I've represented some very, very famous people

without a case ever becoming public that have settled because it's not worth it. Just the allegation is not worth it and they'll pay money even though they proclaim their innocence, but they're like, but yeah, but okay, so I met this person, so they can prove that they know me or met me. And now I have to then fight like and go after this,

but yet all of the cloud of suspicion. And again, in this day and age, when you're accused of something, it's like, you know, you all of a sudden are guilty and if you challenge the accusation you're victimizing the victim even though they're not a victim yet like that drives me crazy you can't even defend yourself so if someone accused me of sexual misconduct and I said she's a liar or she's made these false claims before oh how you're victimized the victim all over again and she become a

victim that's the allegation I'm telling you I'm innocent I'm gonna fight this so I you know but now if you defend yourself you're you know you're a pariah so it's just it's yes so people do settle all the time what's called a nuisance settlement you know just to make sure that they don't wind up on the front pages of the New York Post, TMZ and you know on the Breakfast Club. I got three more questions. You got one more question too? You got an ASAP question right? Yeah I have an ASAP question.

I just saw just now that he was named the first ever creative director of Ray-Ban. Yeah. It's at Rocky and I remember after the case happened, you talked about it here, like telling Gucci to hold off on the Gucci guilty. Which is an amazing scent by the way. But telling him to hold off. And I think for me, when I heard you talk about that,

and I'm seeing this now, I think about even though he was proven innocent, were there people who walked away, like in the midst of this, no? Everybody sitting, head. So I was dealing with all of them. I mean, I was like on conference call, if conference call, Gucci, Puma,

all these different brands who worked with Rocky, who wanted to know what was going on, giving them updates. And I would tell them, we're gonna win, we're gonna win, we're gonna win, but you gotta wait. Gucci Guilty was my biggest heart attack, because of all things to be called,

they'll call it Gucci Guilty. And they wanted to roll it out before Valentine's Day. And I'm like, this is the middle of the trial, I'm gonna be summing up on Valentine's Day. Can you do me a favor and just wait another week? They're like, it's Valentine's Day. I'm like, I don't care. They're called Gucci Not Guilty.

How about that? Put a little knot in there and then let it roll, but you can't go Gucci guilty So what they did was we compromised they put the ad out with Rocky in it holding the bottle cologne and there was no Gucci guilty was just the cologne and Rocky But if you look at the bottle gotta get real close it would say Gucci guilty on the bottle But they didn't put those big letters now. There's all the big letters now. I don't care I got so so that was nuts. I got two more questions. How good did it feel?

Cause I was seeing young ladies name, that be doing this stuff, Megan was. Megan Cunis. Yeah, I saw you pointed her and said, you were wrong. Oh yeah, 50 just came at her too. That girl, at first she was loving Rocky. She put down money. Hi, following us, hi Rocky, hi, hi, hi.

And then one day, I mean, she sent me some messages that were pretty against the prosecution very full rocking. And one day, whoop, I don't know what happened, but whoop, the defense is lying. He's gonna be found guilty. Who would believe him? I'm like, no.

I think it was the prop gun thing. Nah, it wasn't the prop gun thing. The prop gun thing was in the beginning. So it wasn't the prop. First of all prop gun thing was in the beginning. So it wasn't the prop. First of all, if you're a journalist, be a journalist. If you're gonna pretend to be a journalist, and you're really not a journalist, then do what you want, say what you want.

No journalist says, the defense is lying. They report the facts. It's for other people to determine, right? So I guess she's not a journalist, but she's a blogger, right? She's an attorney though, correct? Wasn't she an attorney at one point? Well, I don't think that.

Oh, I was thinking she was an attorney at one point. I don't believe you. She got it. What's wrong with me? Listen, I don't have any personal feelings against her, but it was shocking to see her go from one to the other, and she's like, no one's gonna believe this defense. Well, guess what?

And we had a three hour, look, we had a four week trial. We had a verdict in three hours. I knew at that point we won. There's no doubt. Look, it's not 100% because you never know what a jury could do, but for 12 people that could make beyond a reasonable doubt on that evidence, it was gonna take a long time to get everyone around.

What we found out from, I spoke to three jurors personally. Rolling Stone spoke to one and someone else spoke to one. The one juror that was on video was basically our worst juror or the one who was against us. Or the one that was saying that she believed it was a. Yeah, she believed. She believed, but when they went to the jury room, 10 people voted immediately within one minute to acquit.

Wow. Okay. It's reasonable that, look, can we. Wow. Okay, it's reasonable doubt. Look, can we say, can anyone say it's definitely a prop gun? Of course not. Can anyone say it's definitely a real gun? Of course not. So that's reasonable doubt and that's not guilty. Punto.

That's it. But you know, she then came out, she's walked to the court and a three hour verdict, when you get a three hour verdict, it's a defense verdict. 99% of the time, especially in a four week trial. Because you can't come to the conclusion that he's guilty. You have to really comb through the evidence. They asked for one exhibit in their notes,

the defense video. That's it. The defense video, five minutes later, we have a verdict. It didn't take a rocket scientist to figure out where this was going, right? So she's walking to court, like, doing a selfie video. Like, if anyone thinks this is not guilty they're crazy huh of course I get this guilty they didn't believe the prop coming and it's gonna be guilty very

clearly a quick video like this is death for the defense okay it's we're gonna see and or it's not guilty I killed it and just look I said you were wrong you know know? So, whatever. It popped in me. By the way, I can't find any evidence that she was an attorney. I tried to look it up. Yeah, I think it was, she worked for Law & Crime.

One of my favorite movies, Devil's Advocate, Keanu Reeves, you know, Al Pacino. And you know, in that movie, Keanu Reeves played the character named Kevin and he's representing somebody, but in the midst of representing him, he realizes, oh shit, this motherfucker's guilty. Remember the dude, it was a child molestation case,

the dude did got hard while he was, while the young girl was on the stand testifying. Have you ever been in a situation like that? Like in the midst of it, you like, wait a minute, I think this motherfucker actually did it. Yeah, I mean, yeah. Yeah. It wasn't this case.

Okay. I've tried 120 jury trials, and so, again, a chunk of those was the prosecutor. But there's been times where you know I believed in it and since then I saw some evidence halfway through. I was like hmm. But you know at that point you're just fighting them. All you can do at that point is if they don't want to take a plea you can just challenge the evidence. Which is constitutionally what you have to do.

Someone can be guilty, but also be entitled to a not guilty verdict. And that sounds weird to people. But the reason that's true is because if the proof isn't there, if the prosecution has then met their burden to prove the case beyond reasonable doubt, the person's entitled to a not guilty verdict,

the community's entitled to a not guilty verdict, the system is entitled to a not guilty verdict. You know, we're not a perfect system, but what you definitely don't want is we start cutting corners for people we know are guilty. Because that's Richard Jewell, that's what starts happening. Oh, they're guilty, so, you know, constitutional safeguards are out.

We can cheat a little bit here and there. That's when innocent people start getting clipped. And that, to me, is the worst thing that could ever happen. When I'm representing people who are purely innocent, that's the worst things for me, because then I'm dealing with like a pressure that is just enormous, enormous. And you know, if you don't win that case,

you feel it's like burden for the rest of your life. Does it bother you morally though? What's the more of the burden? Does it like, if you know somebody's guilty and still represent them and win, isn't that a burden too though? No, no, because that means the system worked. That means the system worked.

It means the proof wasn't there. As long as I'm not suborning perjury, which I would never do. As long as I'm not making, you know, somebody say something that's not true. If someone's guilty and I think they're guilty, but they were found not guilty, that means the proof wasn't there. The proof wasn't there. And we need that person found not guilty, that means the proof wasn't there. The proof wasn't there and we need

that person found not guilty because it keeps the system strong, keeps all of us safe. Because if we start, again, lowering the standards for the ones we know are guilty, that's when, really, that's when innocent people start getting convicted and that's bad. So I can live with that as long as the system

was put to the test and I've done my job, then you know, it's what it is. The worst thing is if you represent someone who's truly, truly innocent, you know they're truly innocent, and they're being either framed, set up, or just for whatever reason there's an agenda. And you know, that's the stuff that you lose sleep over

because God forbid they're convicted. I mean, just like, how do you deal with that? How do you carry that with you for the rest of your life? So, fortunately I've not had that happen. I represent a lot of innocent, truly innocent people. They've all been vindicated, thank God. Because if I had that happen, that would be, that would be, you know,

something that would be very tough to go on with. Absolutely. What do you do next? Do you take a break? Or do you jump right back into a cage? I gotta, I have to go on with. Absolutely. What do you do next? Cause you take a break or do you jump right back into a cage? I got to go to my office. I've says I'm afraid to see where I want to find on my desk.

I mean, I've been there for five weeks. Especially now. Yeah. You don't like take a break. You got to, you missed Valentine's day. You got to go to vacation. Sometimes. No, that's life for trial lawyer.

I mean, look, will I take any downtime? Maybe a few days here or there, but I got, there's a judge dying to get me on trial in Westchester County, waiting for this case to be over. So I know that's gonna happen soon. Trial in Arizona coming up. So it's, you know, whatever. It is what it is.

I try and take care of myself, keep myself in good shape, work out a lot, eat well, and that gives me a little extra energy to go forward. You need a documentary or something, man. Absolutely. Seriously, with all the different cases you've represented. Psychiatrist. Psychiatrist. Hey Joe, good to meet you, pray I never need you.

We appreciate you, yeah, absolutely. Well, we definitely gonna keep your number, because if we see any cases that we don't understand, we might need to call to break some things down for us. We know I'm gonna call. I'm things down for us. I love you guys. I'm serious. How many times I called you before I got you on the phone? That's right, well it's ASAP Joe, Joe Tacopino,

it's The Breakfast Club, good morning. Wake that ass up. In the morning. The Breakfast Club. Do you remember what you said the first night I came over here? How? Go slower?

From Blumhouse TV, iHeart Podcasts, and Ember 20 Do you remember what you said the first night I came over here? How? Goes lower? From Blumhouse TV, iHeart Podcasts, and Ember 20 comes an all-new fictional comedy podcast series. Join the flighty Damien Hirst as he unravels the mystery of his vanished boyfriend. I've been spending all my time looking for answers about what happened to Santi. And what's the way to find a missing person? Sleep with everyone he knew, obviously. Listen to The Hookup on the iHeartRadio app,

Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. This is John Cameron Mitchell and my new fiction podcast series, Cancellation Island, stars Holly Hunter as Karen, a wellness influencer who launches a rehab for the recently canceled. In the future, we will all be canceled for 15 minutes, but don't worry we'll take you from broke to woke or your money back.

Cancellation Island's revolutionary rehab therapies like Bad Touch Football, Anti-Racism Spin Class and mandatory ayahuasca ceremonies are designed to force the cancel to confront their worst impulses. But everything starts to fall apart when people start disappearing. Karen, where have you brought us? Cancellation Island, where a second chance might just be your last. Listen to Cancellation Island on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Hi, I'm Arturo Castro, and I've been lucky enough to do stuff like Broad City and Narcos and Roadhouse. And now I'm starting a podcast because honestly, guys, I don't feel the space is crowded enough. Get Ready for Greatest Escapes, a new comedy podcast about the wildest true escape stories in history. Each week I'll be sitting down with some of the most hilarious actors and writers and comedians, people like Ed Helms, Diane Guerrero, and Joseph Gordon-Levitt. I love storytelling and I love you, so I can't wait. Listen and subscribe to Greatest Escapes on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever

you get your podcasts. I'm Emi Olea, host of the podcast, Crumbs. For years, I had to rely on other people to tell me my story. And what I heard wasn't good. You really f***ed last night. It felt like I lived most of my life in a blackout. I was trapped in addiction. You had to grab the lamp and smash it against the walls. And then I decided I wanted to tell my own story.

Listen to Crumbs on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.