The Breakfast Club - INTERVIEW: Kerry Washington Talks New Book, Finding Biological Father, Jamie Foxx's Advice, Scandal + More

Episode Date: September 27, 2023

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Wake that ass up early in the morning. The Breakfast Club. Morning, everybody. It's DJ Envy, Charlamagne Tha God. We are The Breakfast Club. We have Lauren LaRosa, our special guest host. And we got a special guest in the building. Ladies and gentlemen, Kerry Washington. That's right. Welcome. Hi. Good morning, Ms. Washington. Congrats on the new book. Okay. Yeah. Thank you. How are you?

I'm really good. Yeah. Yeah. I'm good. Good. Okay. Yeah. Thank you. How are you? I'm really good. Yeah. Yeah. I'm good. Good. Okay. Yeah. New book out, Thicker Than Water.

Congratulations. Thank you. Learned so much about you with this book. First, maybe it's just me being stupid. I didn't know you were from the Bronx. Really? I did not know that. You were from the Bronx.

I didn't know you were from the Bronx. Born and raised in the Bronx. Born and raised. Where at? My mother was born in the Bronx. My, you were from the Bronx. Born and raised in the Bronx. Born and raised. I mean, my mother was born in the Bronx. My mother grew up on Simpson Street, and I grew up on Pugsley Avenue, across from Stevenson High School.

You know what I say? I say the craziest people in America come from the Bronx and all of Florida. Why? What? Why? Have you seen the news? I agree on Florida, but why the Bronx?

I think some of the most talented people in the world come from the Bronx. That is very true, too. Now, how did you know now was the time to write Dickin' and Wallace? So what I write about in the book is that a handful of, like, five years ago, my parents sat me down and shared with me some new information about myself that really kind of challenged the way that I thought about myself, that I thought about my family, turned my world upside down. And at the time I had actually sold another book idea, which was based, kind of inspired by the show that I was on, Scandal. And

it was like, these are the 10 things that I learned from Olivia Pope. So that was a really fun, kind of self-reflective, but not very deep, soul-searching book but every time I sat down to write that book all I could think about was this new information I'd been given and how it impacted my family and my sense of self and so I wasn't going to write a book at all I tried to give the publisher their money back but they wouldn't take it um and then a few years later I was like I think I have to at least try to write this book because you said your parents didn't want you to reveal that yeah yeah so my my parents told me that they were sort of forced to tell me that my at least try to write this book. Because you said your parents didn't want you to reveal that information. Yeah, yeah. So my parents told me that they were sort of forced to tell me

that my dad is not my biological father. Yeah. How did that affect you? Because, I mean, he's still your dad at the end of the day. We've seen the pictures. He is always going to be my dad. The dad jokes on Instagram. So how did that affect anything after you were told?

So I think immediately when they told me, it was weird. To be totally honest with you, I felt like excited. I felt excited and grateful because I had always felt like there was something going on in my family that I couldn't put my finger on. But it was like a dynamic of distance or like there was I just knew that I didn't know what I didn't put my finger on, but it was like a dynamic of distance. Or like, I just knew that, I didn't know what I didn't know, but I knew that there was something between my parents and I. And because I didn't know what it was, a lot of times I blamed myself for that. Or maybe thought I was crazy for thinking it. Maybe thought, maybe I'm just not open enough.

Like, I was always trying to figure it out. So when they told me, it felt like, I don't know, it felt like I could breathe. It felt like, oh, this is a real opportunity for me to jump into this new kind of understanding of myself and my life. And, you know, it was really exciting. Did you care? Because it's, you know. I did care.

I did care because I did care. Partly because I felt like, yes, my dad is always going to be my dad but the reality is now 50 of my genetics became a big question mark and that's important right like in terms of health care in terms you know in terms of understanding my medical history but even like you know i don't know what i might get you know in the whole nurture versus nature dynamic there might be parts of me that i get from this donor this sperm donor that that i've never known was from that side of my family like i just thought this i guess partly i've i've struggled to feel comfortable in my skin for most of my life. It's part of why acting has kind of saved me. This is because I always,

I would find myself in these characters. I would kind of grab onto their identities and there was like a sense of freedom and wholeness in becoming other people. But this felt like an opportunity to try to be comfortable in my own skin. When you would ask questions about like just different things, like, hey, you go to the doctors and they say, you know, what illnesses are on your mom's side, your dad's side.

When you would ask your dad, your mom, those questions, how would they answer it? As if my dad was my father. They were going to take this to their grave. And I get it. I totally understand. Right. They're protecting you. Yeah.

I think they they felt like, well, first of all, let me just say this. My parents are renegades. Right. Like protecting you. Yeah. I think they they felt like. Well, first of all, let me just say this. My parents are renegades. Right. Like a lot of us now we know people who go to sperm donor sperm banks. Right. It's like very common relatively now. And you get a whole catalog. You can pick the color of the eyes and what Ivy League university they went to. But when my parents did this in the mid 70s, nobody was doing this. This was highly experimental, highly secretive. It was a big risk they were taking. It wasn't like they had complete health screenings for the donor.

They had no idea who the donor was. They said we asked two things. Let him be healthy. Who knows what that means at the time, right? But, like, we want him to be healthy and we want him to be black because they wanted this to be a secret. So, yeah. Are you okay? Yeah. You okay? i'm glad you asked that one yeah because

you know sometimes we put things in these books and you know we repair our souls yeah but then we got to go on these press runs and we may not be ready to talk about these no yeah it's interesting because i actually feel like i think i am a little bit emotional today because it's the book is really out in the world. But I, I think I'm having an easier time processing it than a lot of people because I've been living with it for five years, you know, over five years. So and for other people, it's very new information. But I feel, you know, every time I talk about it, I feel a little bit more liberated. I feel a little bit more free. I wanted to ask, you know, you know, you talk about your eating disorder and dealing with how you felt about your body and your looks.

I wanted to know what got you in that point. And the reason I ask is I have four daughters. Charlamagne has four daughters. And I always want to make sure I try my hardest to give my daughter as many compliments as possible. Right. Because you never want them to feel that way. But sometimes I don't think that matters because it's also how they look at themselves. Yeah.

So what got you to that point where you didn't like what you seen in the mirror or something that you weren't happy about? It's such a good question. I have daughters, too. Right. So it's something that I think about a lot. I, I think that the food, it's like any other kind of addictive behavior. It's not about the drug. It's not really about the food or even really about the relationship with body. It came from a compulsion to try to fix my, to, it came out from a compulsion of trying to escape the feelings I was having or numb them. And so I think for me, it was this sense that I write about in the book of feeling like I had to

be perfect. Like I had to be better than who I was in order to be deserving of love. And some of that came from like, why do I have this weird dynamic with my parents? Like, what's going on? Maybe if I was better, prettier, smarter, thinner, then I might be more lovable. So I don't even, you know, I mean, I do think like, it's important to teach our kids to make healthy choices

when it comes to exercise, to make healthy choices when it comes to food, to teach them about nutrition, about how food works in the body. All that's important. But I think helping a kid to feel unconditionally loved, to feel safe physically and emotionally, and to help a child have their feelings and process their feelings and not feel like they need to escape their feelings,

those are the things that I think help us have the tools to live in life on life's terms as opposed to grabbing at addictive behaviors to escape life. Are you your parents' only child? I am. Wow, so you went through this kind of alone even though they were still there with you. Yeah, there was a lot of pressure. Yeah. I mean, I think that was one of the big things for me is when I was in college and the food stuff got really bad.

And I just was, that was really the first time that I started to ask for help. Because I think up until that time, I felt like self-reliance is the point. Like you're supposed to kind of go it alone, be strong, get through life. And that was the turning point for me where I was like, I think I need some help. Who did you ask first? Did you ask your parents? I'm trying to think. I think I asked an aunt.

I called an aunt of mine first and was like, I think I have a really messed up relationship with food. But the thing, what's hard about eating disorders is a lot of people will tell you like oh everybody eats when they're depressed or everybody goes to the gym when they're upset that's okay but i knew like to the level to the extent that i was in that behavior that it was self-destructive i knew this wasn't just like a cute sitcom you know kids on a sitcom eating a little ice cream because they were sad like this was this was a different level of of pain what was your go-to anything anything fast food yeah i guess i was in college so it was like normal stuff you can get your hands on in college like pizza and but really again like it wasn't about the food right it was about the the numbing and the yeah

why not drugs alcohol that's a good question that's a good question there's time there's time for me I can go there lord have mercy I think you know it's funny it's like I couldn't be a perfectionist and do the drugs and alcohol thing

like I still the thing about the eating disorder and the exercises yes I could hide it so I could still be a great student maintain my GPA

be seen as a perfectionist still have the lead in all the plays in college still come across as a good girl, but secretly have this behavior. And I knew, you know, I also have a lot of alcoholism in my family. So I had this sense that if I went there, I would lose the good girl image. I could do this other thing.

And it actually kind of led me to the good girl image. I'm jumping all around because I want people to read the book, Thickening Water. But you talked about, you know about always striving for perfection. You said Jamie Foxx taught you a very valuable lesson. Can you explain what that was? I've been really lucky. I've been lucky enough to work with Jamie twice on Ray and Django Unchained. Classics, by the way. Yeah, truly. He's the best. Jamie's taught me a lot about a lot of things but one of the things is in my work as an actor to you have to let go of that perfection idea because we were doing a scene together and ray it was the scene where i find

speaking of drugs where i find all his heroin works um the first time as his wife and you know we had done it in the morning we had hit it out of the park and i was like oh we are on fire this is incredible and then as the day went on i kept trying to do it exactly the way we had done it earlier that morning so that it would be in that perfect place that felt so good and that's the beginning of death as an actor like you you can't try to recreate magic you have to keep cultivating new magic, right? Like you have to truly be in the moment.

And Jamie really helped me to realize I was frustrated in the scene. And he was like, you gotta, you gotta keep digging. You gotta let go of this morning. And that was a really powerful lesson. Why was it easier to find that in acting as opposed to real life? Well,

I guess I hadn't learned how to apply that to the rest of my world you know there was like it was in a vacuum was isolated kind of moment but it's a good question i mean that is the lesson though right is that like the answer is never about perfection it's always about like what's the best possible version of my life in this moment of me in this moment i was going to ask what you you know, with doing this book, what made you finally say, you know what, I'm ready to open up because you've always been so private about your life other than acting. What was the moment you says, this is why I want to do it and this is why I want to

do it now? I think part of it, honestly, is that I have been always very private with my kids very private with my husband we you know we don't put our kids online we don't really talk about our marriage on the internet but or in the press but i've been very public in my relationship with my parents my parents come to premieres they come to award shows fashion shows red carpets. So suddenly I felt like when they gave me this information and they asked me not to share it, I was now being complicit in their lie. Like they had built this false narrative and now they were asking me to buy into it. And I was like, I don't want to be out in the world doing an interview where people are like, oh, wow, your son looks so much like your dad,

which by the way, he weirdly does. And not be able to be honest, right? Like I just wanted, I wanted to be able to have my truth and not feel like I had to live under their shadow. And I felt like if somebody is going to tell this story, I want to tell it because it's my story. So I didn't want to just do it on a talk show. I wanted to really have the narrative. Now you did say something. I heard you say that parents do the best that they can. And then it's up to us to parent ourselves after that. Explain that. Well, I think like one of the things that I've truly come to terms with in writing this book is that my every choice my parents made was out of love. They weren't trying to be cruel. They weren't trying to hurt

me. They really thought that this was the best choice. And by the way, doctors back then said it like artificial insemination was so new. They would say, you do this thing and then you go home and have sex and then you have plausible deniability. And nobody knew 40 years ago there would be these home tests, 23 and ancestry. You had no idea. So they were like, go home and have sex. Then the kid's yours. End of story. Nothing to talk about. Right right and so it I think my parents didn't want me to feel different they didn't want me to feel weird they didn't want me ironically they didn't want me to feel distance from them even though that's what wound up happening so I know that they made loving choices or choices out of love even if they didn't feel loving to me but I think we have to for me and my journey it's been like it's been good to understand who they think we have to for me and my journey it's been like it's

been good to understand who they were to have compassion for their choices but I can't blame them for where I am now like now that I have awareness I have to say like okay they gave me everything they could with as much love as they could in the places where I feel like I don't have the tools that I needed I didn't get the tools I needed in that household. Part of being an adult is to say, how do I give myself those tools? How do I ask for help in therapy, in reading, coaches? How do I now close the gap

between what they gave me and what I need? That's my responsibility as an adult. If I just sit here and continue to complain about what they didn't give me, then I'm keeping myself a child. What's that conversation like with your kids? Like once you decided to take this world to your kids and even deciding to write the book

and now you're, you know, because your kids, I'm sure they're friends and everybody knows who you are. So how do you have that conversation with them and kind of how are they responding to things? You know, it's funny. Like I was saying before, this is so common now. Like it's not news to my kids.

They were so unimpressed. Like, you know, they're so common now. Like it's not news to my kids. They were, they were so unimpressed. Like, you know, they're in their classes, they have kids with two dads and two moms. So they have friends from sperm donors, friends from egg donors, friends who are adopted, friends who were born from surrogates. Like they also like, we're a blended family, right? Their big sister, you know, when, when you would look at the three of them, their big sister has four parents. Like having me having another parental figure in my story is not weird to them. For my parents, they came from a world where what makes a family was very different. But the ideas of what makes a family now is much more open. So, you know, they know, obviously the conversation I have with my 17 year old is very different than the conversation I have with my six year old right but you know I'm we I want to be a home where we're open and

honest and where they feel like they can ask anything what about when you decided to because I know in this book you talk about the abortion that you had at 20 yeah that is something that is like so in your 20s but I mean it's around Save the Last Dance time, right? So you were, you know, highly successful at this time. I know, but it's in a chapter that I call Black Famous because I was like, you know how we are. White people didn't necessarily know that the girl from Save the Last Dance was the same girl from Ray,

was the same girl from Last Game of Scotland. So we knew, you know, but so yes, my star was on the rise, but it wasn't, I wasn't like, I could still go to the grocery store and it was all good. Do you remember the next, like, cause I know that there's probably like a lot of like medicine and different things that you take when all that's happening. But when you really were able to like sit and talk to yourself after that, what was the conversation you had with yourself? After my abortion? Oh, that's such a great question. I don't remember. I don't remember I don't remember I mean are you asking in terms of like how did I feel about making that choice yes because

I think prior to making the choice maybe it's different after right or maybe it's not I don't know but I'm just wondering I never questioned whether or not it was the right choice. It didn't feel easy. But I mean, to be honest, I remember feeling really grateful that I was able to make that choice because I knew that that would have had a huge impact on my life, on my career, on my mental health. I knew I wasn't ready. And I felt really lucky to live in a country where I had the right to make that choice, where I had agency, free agency over my body and could, you know, make decisions about my family and my family planning that were the healthiest decisions for me. My health things have changed in this country. Yeah, that's one of the reasons why I shared it

because I feel like those rights are under attack. And, you know, in that moment, I talk about it as a loss of personal privacy because I got, even though I went to the abortion clinic under a pseudonym, under a fake name, I got recognized on the table. So you really did that. Yeah, yeah.

And so, and for me, it was like, I had a sense of the loss of my privacy in that room. And that's what's happening to so many women right now. The right to have an abortion is part of our right to privacy. And when we attack a woman's ability to make choices about her own life that are not anybody else's business, we really chip away at her ability to be a full human being. I want to ask one more question about your father. How did finding out your father wasn't your biological father change your views on parenthood?

Oh, man. Well, one thing I say in the book is, and it's what I feel, is that in a community, in our community, where people have historically had such difficult relationships, right, where there's this history of dads maybe not being present. You know, in the neighborhood that I grew up in, I grew up in one of the few households where the dad was around and, you know, my parents were still married. And the fact looking back that my dad really did choose me, that he was there, he's been there for me the whole time, that he's been this, you know, parental force in my life, that he's my dad, that he chose me, that I belong to him and he belongs to me. It almost meant more than it ever did before. And I feel really grateful, you know, because back then when I think about the mid 70s grateful, you know,

because back then when I think about the mid-70s and, you know, a lot of, even today, like, people not being able to have a baby breaks a lot of marriages up, right? Like, a lot of people, they don't make it through that hurdle or over that hurdle is the right metaphor, but my parents, they, like, they made the choice. They wanted me so badly they made the choice to to take on this incredible risk and do something that nobody else was doing

and to keep a four decade secret because they just they really wanted me in their life and so I think as a parent it makes me just remember not to take any moment for granted as a parent. Like that each one of us, I know this sounds so hokey, but like each one of us really is a miracle. You know, like the odds of like that egg being in the right place at the right time with that sperm and making it happen. Like every single one of us from the moment we arrive, we're a miracle. But for my parents, I was like this crazy prayed for miracle. And I just, I want to make sure, you know, there may be a lot of things that I don't agree with in terms of the choices that my parents made.

But the fact that I knew I was loved and wanted is something that I tried to take from my experience as a child and put it in my kids lives. And it's safe to say that culture of secrecy that so many black families have. You don't have that in yours. I mean, I think we're really chipping away at it. I mean, it's funny. My mom says, we were doing an interview the other day and they said, like, what's changed? What's the family like now? And I said, we're much more open.

We're much more honest. And she said, I thought it was so beautifully put, we're no longer afraid to hurt each other right because that's part of intimacy is to take the risk to be yourself to maybe not agree to say something that might hurt somebody but you choose to be in truth no matter what so yeah there's a lot more transparency in my in my family now now you contemplated suicide at one point yeah the reason i ask is i'm sure there's people you told a lot in this book some kids i know it's like i went from zero to 60 no but you gotta understand how how good this is going to do for so many people because like we watch you especially like with women i know we watch you in the composure that you have the way

you speak to see that like you you've actually been through things and now you're at a place where you're able to talk about it and you know what I mean? Yeah. It's going to give so many people that feeling of like, okay, cool. I can do this. I got this. I think it's also an important lesson. How you get through it.

Yeah. There's also an important lesson, I think, in never comparing your insides with somebody else's outsides. Because you're right. Like from the outside, I felt like it was part of my job particularly you know like when Scandal first started there was all this talk about how there hadn't been a black woman on network drama in almost 40 years and I had this sense that I was I wasn't just like making a show for my own success it was for the culture it was like it

was bigger than me that's heavy and so I didn't I never wanted to be flawed because I felt like you know if I don't do this right if we don't get this right it'll be another 40 years before there's a black woman on the air and luckily because audiences tuned in that wasn't the case you know soon we had you know Cookie and we had Annalise on How to Get Away and we had all these other shows even like Priyanka Chopra's show right like suddenly black and brown girls were allowed to be the lead on these shows. And so I felt like I had to maintain. And before that, before Scandal, there was always this sense that you had to maintain appearances.

And I think I learned that from my parents too, right? Because they were always maintaining appearances, even though I didn't even know what was happening behind the curtain. But getting through it again was asking for help. What got you there, first of all? And then how did you get through it again was that asking for help I mean what got you there first of all and then how did you get through it because I'm sure there's there's people listening now that might be in that same zone and trying to work themselves through it every day so what got you to that point where you felt that way and then how did you get over that obstacle I mean the biggest when you say there might be people listening who feel that way it's like my heart breaks because i just know how hard it is

to feel that alone and that hopeless so if anybody's listening and is feeling that way the one thing i would say is to ask for help you know is to really ask for help because you are, you feel alone, but I guarantee you, you are not alone. Um, and for me, that was the big thing was, I mean, number one, it was the first time that I truly got on my knees and talk to God and was like, I need help. Like I don't, I, cause I felt like I really don't have any tools. I don't, I don't know what to do. So it was the first time that I think I humbled myself enough to feel like there's got to be something bigger than me that points me in the direction of healing.

And I started reaching out. I went to therapy for the first time, group therapy, one-on-one. I just really started committing to trying to walk this road of healing. I swear by it. I swear by therapy. I love your self-awareness. Did you realize you were black famous when you were black famous?

Or was that in hindsight? No, in the moment. Because I knew, you know, it was like, I knew I could walk down the street on 57th and Madison and be fine. But if I was in the Bronx, it was like, oh my God, that's Chanel. Or like at the time I was a, I was a substitute teacher in New York City public schools.

That was one of my many side hustles when I was trying to make a living as an actor. And it was funny because I would get hired into the school and the principals who were white, you know, the principals, vice principals, they would be like, so nice to meet you. Great. They bring me to the classroom. They had no idea who I was. But then I would be asked to leave a school because by the second day, all the kids were cutting class

to see Chanel from Save the Last Dance because they knew who I was because I was substitute teaching in Harlem. So it was like that dynamic. I understood that certain people knew who I was and other people didn't. Do people, sorry, do people walk up to you and bust out in the moves

from Save the Lesbians? Like, was that a thing then? Oh, have mercy. Yes, for sure. For sure,

it was a thing then. But even just yesterday, I saw Kiki Palmer and she literally did like the monologue from the movie that I do sitting in the clinic with my baby. I was like,

how do you remember this, Kiki? She was like, that was my shit. What's more fulfilling? Being black famous or white famous? I think you have to have both. That was one of the things

that Chris Rock taught me. You can never ever forget your core, original, first audience. Because that other audience will come and go. There'll be ebbs and flows but black people will hold you up throughout if you if you stay with us we stay with you i feel like that's what

made scandal such a hit yes absolutely i mean we were part of the birth of black twitter um at the time so i one of my best friends from high school she's a brilliant social media person allison peters she actually convinced me to go on twitter and i was like what why i don't know and she was like she had come out of viacom and was like it's really important you need to do this and she and i kind of talked like i mean i i talked shonda rhymes into talking the cast into being on twitter and we were one of the first shows to do live tweeting and to really have event television at a time where people were no longer watching shows in real time unless it was like a basketball game and so that conversation around the show was our grassroots movement like we had black twitter on

fire people like oprah eventually were like i only started watching twitter because it's i only started watching scandal because it's the only thing people talked about on Thursday nights on Twitter. So yes, in that first season, it was absolutely because black audiences, you know how culture follows us. So black audiences made it that you had to be there to tune in. And suddenly it trickled out into the rest of the world. How often do people come up to you to fix shit?

All the time. I can't ask about the to you to fix shit? All the time. I can't ask about the dance, but you can ask about the Olivia Poe. All the time. And to be honest, because the show was inspired by a real woman, Judy Smith, who's a real DC fixer who never slept with the president, but was a real fixer. And I have her on

speed dial, so people also will come to me to get to her because they know she is truly able to fix stuff have you needed her i haven't needed her but i've sent other people to her yes but i've talked to her i mean like not not on like a i'm in jail it's 2 a.m help me out but like you know if there's a rollout of a movie and i'm like i don't know this director he's a little bit of a problem what do you think you know i've done i've had those kind of conversations with her um yeah but people do you know it's funny like it'll happen in political moments like a lot of my political work now is inspired by the fact that in 2016

the morning after the election when that awful rapist racist person was elected, that when I woke up, all over social media, people were like, you have to save us. You gotta, what are you gonna do? Please, Olivia Pope. And it was funny for a minute, and then I was like, we have a real problem in our culture because we, we don't realize that Olivia Pope is an imaginary character on a television show, and that every single person

who wrote one of those tweets, they have more power than Olivia Pope is an imaginary character on a television show and that every single person who wrote one of those tweets, they have more power than Olivia Pope because she can't vote. She can't register voters. She can't volunteer. She can't knock on doors. But it's like we've given our power over to imaginary people

because we have this hero worship, right? So we're not stepping into our power because we're looking for somebody else to solve our problems for us. So a lot of the work that I've been doing has been trying to figure out how to turn the spotlight that's on me onto those grassroots organizations and people who are really doing the work. When people saw you with the vice president the other day, they probably were the same thing. They went crazy. Yeah. She's back. She's at the White House.

What do you do to relax and release? I see a lot of videos of you doing yoga. Yes. I mean, you see you doing yoga on your head like like as a dance hall artist but what so what do you do to release and relax yeah i think it's a lot of i love pilates i love yoga i honestly go for a lot of walks um i do walking and hiking with my husband not in the bronx no not as i don't live in the bronx anymore i mean i do walk in the bronx if I'm there. But in terms of like... Go ahead. Don't shade the Bronx. The Bronx is a beautiful place.

I don't know if it's shade if it's facts. Listen, the Bronx is a beautiful place to grow up. We love it. But where do you... No, don't go walk there. Why? What? I just...

Oh, you didn't see that? That's the Bronx. That was the Bronx. That was the Bronx. That was the Bronx. Don't shade to the Bronx. Wow. You turned to Cardi B just now.

I want to know people. Honestly, maybe with Cardi B because I don't know. But I want to know people where it's like we got to protect you at all costs. And I just don't know. Yes. But listen, I mean, I walk. I like to walk wherever I am. I feel like walking is part of how you acclimate to an environment.

So I always tell people, like when I'm in a place filming, I warn security. Where's my security? Right? Yeah. I mean, we walk. I don't care where we are. I don't care if we're in Jamaica.

I don't care if we're in the Bronx. I don't care if we're in Colombia. I shot a film in South America, in Colombia last year. We walk. I walk. It's part of how you ground yourself in where you are. And it's part of how I relax and feel like I am where I walk. It's part of how you ground yourself in where you are. And it's part of how I relax and feel like I am where I am. But also, honestly, just spending time with friends and family, like being with my kids, being with my husband.

Those are the and I do a lot of walking and hiking with my husband. Those those are like it's like part date night, part business meeting, part therapy session. Like I got a couple more questions. You talk about traveling in the Black famous chapter you talk about going to africa yeah to become african how did that trip change you um so i was filming last king of scotland that was my first time on the continent and it was great because i do feel like sometimes as black people in america we go to africa with all these like do i belong here do i feel at home like what is relationship here? And I just had to put all of that aside because my focus was on just kind of dropping in and becoming a Ugandan woman. And I really did feel at home there. I did.

I felt so lucky to be able to be so immersed in the culture that I wasn't there, like, you know, as a tourist, you know. And I took a, when I was there, I don't know if you've heard about this experience. It's not in the book, but we were hiking in the Rwenzori Mountains, which are the mountains that border Rwanda and Uganda. And it's where the only wild gorillas live. And you can go out with a gorilla trekker and find the gorillas in the jungle and spend time with them you go with like a tour guide and these trekkers and these guys with ak-47s just in case now you see how shalami said the craziest people from the bronx

people travel from all over the world to have this experience because it it is it is one of the most intense spiritual experiences i've ever had. The second one is my experience with the whales that I write about at the end of the book. But it was like to be in the jungle, to be with these creatures, and you realize we really do share like 97, 98% of our DNA with these animals. And they are, you start to think like, oh, they're so human. But no, like we are so gorilla. And the craziest thing that happened was

when they give you this in this uh orientation in the morning they're like if a gorilla gets close to you and is looking at you the most important thing to do is not run you have to to feel safe act like a gorilla so i was like wait a second wait a second i'm telling you that right now i didn't hear it through that lens. Because for me, I was like a young actor who had done animal exercises at school. Like, this was my opportunity. This was my Meryl Streep moment. So when the gorilla came down from the tree, I was like, I squat down.

I mean, everybody in my group was like, what is she? When I tell you that is the best performance of my life, I was the gorilla, the gorilla was me. I started, I picked off a leaf, started chewing on it. And we had the most incredible experience because this gorilla kept getting closer and closer to us. And this little baby gorilla, she was so curious. She was like, what? We've never seen a human like this.

It's the best. We don't act like that. No, she was like, that one's one of us, but with clothes. So what did the gorilla do? They got closer, the trucker said, than they'd ever had a gorilla get to a group before. I mean, the guy with the AK-47 came right next to me because they were terrified. But I was like, don't stop, don't stop. Yeah, it was incredible.

Were you the only person acting like a gorilla? Yeah. How do you know they didn't tell you that just to be funny? Because the experience that we got out of it. I mean, they said it to everybody in the group, but I was the best actor in the group. Gotcha, gotcha, gotcha, gotcha. And I went to Wales, because you mentioned Wales.

Yeah. So I was kayaking with whales in Hawaii. Jesus Christ. Yeah, I wanted to- I believe you walk in the Bronx now. Yeah, I believe you. Yeah! Just out here trying stuff.

Yeah, I do. Are you calling the Bronx the the jungle yes say yes yes yes so i was kayaking with um whales in hawaii and we had this incredible experience it was just me and one other guide and this uh calf a baby whale jumped out of the water and landed so close to the kayak. But I think the mom was upset that the baby was being a little too playful. So she came around to swim under my kayak to warn me. And you know how if you're on the water and something swims under the boat, your boat rises and comes back down? This well was the size of a school bus.

So when she swam under me, my kayak went up, and it just stayed up and up and up until she passed under me. And then she kind of turned and pulled her eye out of the water to look at me. And it's just, those are those moments where you just feel so, for me, where I felt so connected to nature, to the, you know, to everything that has come before you, because this eye, this like giant eye is taking me in and kind of warning me like, that's my kid. Don't do the wrong thing.

You started acting like a whale. No, I didn't. I couldn't. So yeah, that was magical. That was really, really magical. And I learned, you know, I was shaking for like two days, but I learned on the way back, I was talking to my guide and I was like, that was amazing to see the calf and the mom and the dad.

And he said, no, no, no, it's not the dad. That with whales, when you see them in a group of three, that's not the father. That's actually the whale that wants to mate with her next year. That he accompanies her on the migration back home, almost like an act of chivalry to prove himself. Like I'm the man you want to get with next year. Wow.

Yeah. I got a couple more questions. I know you got to go in the chapter miracles. You talk about the indie film, our song. Yeah. And somebody labeled you, they labeled you simply a miracle.

Yeah. What kind of confidence did that give you? Oh, wow. I don't know if it gave me confidence. I felt, I think it made me feel excited about the possibilities of what could come. But I remember feeling, and in some ways I still feel like, I don't know if I'll ever be as good as I was in that movie because I was so hungry and it was like the first time it was my first movie ever and I felt like it was the first time with the history of everything we were

talking about you know kind of all the mental health issues you know all the stuff that I've been dealing with I always wanted to be somewhere else or be somebody else. But when I was making that movie, I finally felt like I was in my purpose. Like I was really exactly where I wanted to be. I talk in the book about being a kid in the Bronx and we lived in the path of LaGuardia Airport. And so I would always see planes fly over our apartment when I was a kid and wish that I was on those planes going somewhere else, living somebody else's life. But when we shot our song, we were in Rockaway by Kennedy Airport. And so we would be we would see planes, we would see planes fly over. And I never wanted to be anywhere than where I was. So, you know, I think I felt

seen when he said that when he said I was a miracle, I was like, no, this opportunity was miraculous. Wow. Yeah. When all of this is done, like everybody gets the book, they get to read it. Everybody should get the book. I read the audio book. It's me and my own words. So that's fun. What is the like the hug or the message that you want people to get from this book? Yeah, that's a great question. I think, and this is something that I've written in the book, but there's a saying I heard a long time ago that I really love, that we are as sick as our secrets.

That's right. And that when, I think when we can let go of the things that keep our true selves hidden, we can let go of our shame. So I want people

to know that you deserve to live in your truth and be in your truth. Not everybody has to know everything. Not everybody has to write a book

and come on The Breakfast Club and talk about their suicide. But you deserve to be loved for who you are. So find those safe spaces. Maybe it's a pastor, maybe it's a therapist, maybe it's a best friend, maybe it's a spouse. Trust yourself. Find those spaces where you can really, really be yourself and be loved unconditionally. Because that was one of the

things that I said to my dad. You know, I knew when my parents told me I realized that they they had been living under this lie for so long that every time I had said I love you to my dad whether it was conscious or unconscious there must have been a part of him that thought she loves me because she thinks I am her father and there must have been a part of him that thought, if she knew I wasn't her father, maybe she won't love me. That's part of why they didn't tell me. And so I had the opportunity, once they gave me that truth,

to actually, for the first time, love my father unconditionally. And that's what we all deserve. That's what we all want. We want to know that no matter what we do or how we act or what we've done in the past that we're lovable and that we're loved and i feel like my family's in that place now but you only get there when you expose your truth when you're vulnerable enough to show people who you are and they love you anyway then you know that you are worthy of of unconditional love but i think

your father proved that you know just because you just because somebody provides sperm doesn't make them a father that's right he's an actual yeah that's right that's right and it's even like people will say like well do you know who your biological father is and i'm still wrapping my head honestly around that language like i know that scientifically it's true, but I still refer to him as the donor because I don't have a relationship with him. I don't know that he's a, again, scientifically he's my father, but I have a dad. I love my dad. It's not, it's not that it's an uncomplicated relationship. You know, I talk a lot about how complicated those relationships are. They're not perfect. I'm not perfect, but it's that ability to walk through hard things that builds real intimacy.

So I think I just, I want people to know that everybody deserves to be loved unconditionally. You deserve to live in your truth and that we can do hard things. Even when we feel like we can't, if we align ourselves with the people who are really in our corner, we can do hard things. Do you want to know who the donor is? I was literally about to ask you that.

I do. I'm searching. I'm looking. And again again not because i need a daddy right like i'm not looking for an emotional connection i'm really open i mean i say that now who knows when it was like you never know like he could walk in the room and i could be like um but i think i'm just really curious about that 50 of me that genetic 50 of. I think there is a question. I know what I've gotten from my dad. I know from my dad, I've gotten my sense of humor, my imagination, my belief in the impossible, my ability to tell a story. I know what I've gotten from my mom, my intellect, my intellectual curiosity, my grace, my compassion. I don't know what I've gotten from the donor. I'm

curious what part comes from him. And I'm curious just in terms of my medical history. I feel like I owe that to my kids that they should know where they come from. But the emotional part of it, I'm open to let it be what it's going to be. Maybe it'll feel like I have additional family. Maybe it'll just feel like I have additional information. I feel good either way. Did you talk to your dad about that? Yeah, I did. What was his feeling about it? He wasn't thrilled. He hasn't been thrilled about any of this, to be honest.

You know, like, even we had the big Robin Roberts special come on ABC the other night. I watched it with my parents. It was me and my husband and my parents, and we all watched it together. This has been a real healing process for the four of us. And my dad still grapples with parts of it you know um he also still you know i say this when i called my dad and said like i talked to the doctor we did the dna test doctor said that you are there's a point zero zero zero, zero, one chance that you're my biological father. He was like, there's a chance.

That's where his brain lives. And I love that about him. I love that he's like, until you find that guy, I'm the one, you can't say nothing to me. And I think I want him to know that even when I figure out who that guy is, he's the one. By the way, Mr. Earl already did the job. Yeah, that's right.

Mr. Earl and Ms. Valerie did the job. That's right. That's right. That's right. That's 100%. But yeah, I think it's just good to have more information. And I want him to know also that he can do hard things, right? That like he's proving to himself and seeing truly that he's loved unconditionally. That having this other information doesn't make me any less devoted to him absolutely

i was going to ask you when you do um meet your other dad is your donor your donor is your uh mindset around like your thought about him is it going to be different because it's like he you know just gave the sperm and didn't really. I mean, I don't know if they're allowed to come back and try and figure out who they listen. When my parents did this, it was the Wild West. No rules. When he did this, it was the Wild West. It's not like he was like in love with my mom, looked at me at the hospital and was like, yeah, for sure. She's ugly. I'm out. Like there was there's no like I don't feel rejected by him.

He didn't sign up when he did that. When he donated his sperm, he wasn't signing up to be in relationships. So I don't feel somehow toward him in that way. In fact, I feel some compassion that he might be like, I didn't sign up for this. You know, I don't know. Can we end with something you said in the epilogue? And I feel like you can relate to so many people. You say my life is not about my donor nor about my parents.

My life is my own. What does that mean to you, and what could that mean to others? Yeah. So when my parents told me this information, I realized, because they had built this narrative, this false narrative about where I came from, I realized that in many ways, I had been the supporting character in their story, right? Like they were living this life. They were Earl and Valerie, parents of this beautiful child, successful middle class black family. Like I was the

supporting character in that fable. And when they gave me the truth, I felt like part of why I wanted to write the book was that it was time for me to step into being the lead character in the story of my life. To not let my life belong to them. To say, like, I deserve to be on this journey, this quest, because I have my own story. Like, I get it. You had four decades of living this your way. But it's my turn to kind of take this narrative and figure out what my life means for me so I do I love my parents I I do love being a supporting character in their life but that has to be a choice I have to know that fundamentally my life is my own and that they because I have the most incredible parents, they now have the opportunity and have allowed themselves

to be supporting characters in my story. And a lot of what I've learned about parenting has been about that choice on their part because they have allowed themselves to be supporting characters for me in this moment, which is humbling for all of us, but them in particular, right? And as I look forward at my kids, I realize this is my moment.

Like this book, I am the protagonist of this book, but I'm also the supporting character in the story of my kids. And I want them to know that I have their back and that they have to live their own life. They shouldn't be living in the ways that make me comfortable. They shouldn't be making choices that are for my own good. They have to make the right choices for them in the way that I'm making the right choices for me now.

Well, we appreciate you for joining us this morning. Thicker Than Water is out right now. We also got to say thank you, too, because, you know, she I was watching the interview and she detailed her own rollout. So she had interviews with she's having with Tyler Perry, with Gabrielle Union, and she picked The Breakfast Club. Yes, I appreciate that. Come see us on tour. We're going to be in Chicago, D.C., Atlanta, L.A. I'm going to be in conversation with Gabrielle Union, Tyler Perry,

Bellamy Young, Tony Goldwyn. It's an incredible lineup. So come see us out on the road. Get her out of here. She's holding in a cough. That's right. I feel lighter already. Thank you.

I feel lighter. It's Kerry Washington. Amazing. It's The Breakfast Club. Good morning. Thank you. Wake that ass up. In the morning.

The Breakfast Club.