The Breakfast Club - INTERVIEW: Kirk Franklin On Meeting His Biological Father, Wholeness, Healing + More

Episode Date: October 6, 2023

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Wake that ass up in the morning. The Breakfast Club. Morning, everybody. It's DJ Envy, Charlamagne Tha Guy. We are The Breakfast Club. We got a special guest in the building. Yes, indeed. The brother Kirk Franklin. Welcome, brother. It's DJ Envy, Charlamagne Tha Guy. We are The Breakfast Club. We got a special guest in the building. Yes, indeed. The brother Kirk Franklin.

Welcome, brother. Welcome back. Good morning, King. Now, why am I taller than you? That's impossible. That's never happened. That always is. That's never happened.

Everybody is, though. That's never happened. God does some amazing things in life, works for miracles, but that ain't never happened, Kirk. I'm talking about the chair. Oh, oh, oh. Yeah. He's so sensitive, but you are taller than him.

Just for the moment. No, no, no, no. He and I are the same height. That's a damn lie. That's not true either. Come on, brother. I ain't even got those shoes on. Come on now.

I'm towering over you. No, you're not towering. No, you're not towering. Solomon got you by like an inch. Solomon got you by an inch. Like by an inch. He ain not towering. Solomon got you by like an inch. Solomon got you by an inch. Like by an inch. He ain't towering. You win this contest with anyone.

How you feeling, my brother? Man, a lot of feelings. Yes, sir. A lot of feelings. And, you know, I thank y'all for letting me come. I mean, this is my first week of having conversations, you know, about all of this. And so, you know, just trying to learn how to be able to articulate it in ways that I've never had to have this level of communication about. You know, I'm a very open and transparent guy, you know,

but some of this recent stuff has kind of, you know, hit me for a loop because it's so fresh. It's so new. It's only like, you only like 12 weeks old. So I'm trying to learn how to do it in these ways. So yeah, but I'm willing to try. For people that don't know, I'm assuming you're talking about the documentary Father's Day.

The time that you met your father for the first time in 53 years. Yeah, well, and just the nuances of it. The fact that I hated a man for 53 years yeah well and just the nuances of it the fact that i hated a man for 53 years that i thought was my father and and and he died knowing that i hated him uh that was powerful in the doc because you said you went to go make peace with him yeah i was wondering like how did you feel knowing you made peace with a person that you know you really you really had no problem problem with you really had no problem with?

You really had no business having a problem with? Well, I still would have had the brokenness in it because he wasn't in my life. And I hated him because he wasn't in my life and showed up when my career started to take off. And that broke me, being adopted and not having a mother and father in my life, but still knowing. Well, I met him when I was six. Saw him again when I was 13. And then he started

showing up when my career took off. And so for somebody that already had a lot of trauma, being adopted and having a lot of abandonment issues and acceptance issues, you know, it was a very painful process to live that way, knowing that you wouldn't want it. And just all the mistakes that a young black man can make not having the type of mentorship. Because I didn't have uncles that stepped in. I didn't have those type of things.

And even in the church, you know, the church majority, it's always made up of women you know unfortunately and so you try to navigate and you make a lot of mistakes and then religion and dogma can also become a little duplicitous and can make the journey even more problematic is because you're living in fear you know but because a lot of times in religion is is god's going to get you and god's going to get you and that's going to get you more than this. God loves you. And even one of my mentors now that I'm older told me about 20 years ago,

it's hard to know God's love as a father when you've never had one. Damn. Fire, right? Oh, hell yeah. What made you want to meet him? This guy? Well, you know, just how it happened. You know, I was in the middle of just working.

I wasn't even looking for him. You said this guy. Is that how you refer to him, is this guy? Well, you know, and I know that language is necessary, right? Absolutely. And it's very important. And language speaks really the tenets of the heart, right? But, you know, for me, this term father is something that i'm

still just grappling with and it's not his fault i mean he's he's been a man who's lived his life he's a 69 year old man that has lived his life not thinking about that he has a son that was 10 minutes away from him his entire entire life. 10 minutes away. And so right now I call him Mr. Rick. I call him Mr. Rick right now as I'm trying to navigate because, you know, he has a daughter, and she's an incredible young lady. She's trying to navigate because she's been the apple of his eye all of her life.

And it's like all of a sudden now they've got me and and and and and he's been very loving but very welcoming and but at the same time my biological mother who i haven't ever really had a strong relationship with is still denying that he's my father after two dna tests why is that i mean i didn't understand that in the documentary like the dna test was 99.99 nine nine positive yeah that was i'm not gonna lie you you're a funny person you don't be meaning to be funny i know i know when they when they gave you the number you was like 99.9 percent what yeah yeah yeah yeah it's because i haven't been in that position before in my life you know it's like i don't get a lot of calls that i got kids by different people so you know so i don't know yeah and and and then you know you have a lot of anxiety because I don't get a lot of calls that I got kids by different people, so I don't know.

And then you have a lot of anxiety because you don't really understand. Why won't she accept it? I don't know, and I would have loved for her to give me that, but it's obvious that she can't, And so I have the responsibility of still honoring black women and talking in a way that still gives a light that I never want to attack her publicly. And I don't know her as my mother. The woman that adopted me was the woman

that I knew as my mother. I would see my biological mother maybe once or twice a year in my life, which makes even the trauma even more painful because in marginalized communities, when it comes to legal adoption, sometimes it doesn't always work the same. A lot of times people outside of our race and hue, they are adopted in systems where they don't really know their biological parents. And so they may know that they were given up, but at least they find people that want them and love them.

So at least it's a wound that heals. But when you have people that come in and out of your life every now and then, and sometimes in our communities, you know, you can be related to somebody that lives right down the street and you don't even know it. And I think that that's what has made the story even a little bit more uh painful and even more broad is that the amount of people that have come out that look like us that have this story

and and that in itself is daunting to know that the uh black american experience uh has caused this this this this uh fractured understanding of what family is because we were so displaced and separated and so many nuances to why we don't know who we are. Now, let me ask you, you did say that, what's his name, Mr. Rich? I don't want to call him Mr. Rich. Mr. Rick. Mr. Rick.

So you said Mr. Rick has a daughter and that's the apple of his eye. Yeah. How did that make you feel when you look at Mr. Rick and you see how much he loves his daughter and raise his daughter and put the time and energy into his daughter? And then you might look and reflect back on yourself and say, damn, why wasn't I the same way? Why wasn't I the apple of his eye? Why wasn't I his son? Why was not like, why did you ever look at that and get a little jealous and make you feel a way? And how did you overcome that? Because I've never been the apple of anyone's eye.

It was just my normal. Mm. I've never been the apple of anyone's eye. Even the woman that adopted me because of her, you know, is one thing that I do share with my brother Charlemagne is that I am a huge advocate of therapy and counseling. I've been in counseling since I was 18 years old. Mm. One thing that I do share with my brother Charlemagne is that I am a huge advocate of therapy and counseling. I've been in counseling since I was 18 years old.

Even the therapists I have right now, I'm his longest patient that he's ever seen. And we kind of make jokes about it because he says that every new experience in my life, it triggers a new trauma. And so I believe in Jesus. I believe in prayer. And I believe in therapy. And so I've needed all of that just to try to get by. So her being the apple of his eye didn't affect me in any way because that's all I've ever known, not being that.

And so that's my normal. That's been my normal. You said something to Doc that hit me so hard, man. You said you don't even know who you truly are. I'm paraphrasing. You don't even know who you truly are because you only know the broken version of yourself. Yes, sir. God.

Yes, sir. And I don't want to even posse myself as a victim. I really try to want to maneuver. And what was very interesting, because I was working on this album, and this a videographer. This is my guy over here to you, to your right and left. And Chris, and Chris was just with me, just capturing the process of working on my album. And in the middle of this album, a young lady that sings with me at her father's church, there was a funeral. And at that funeral, it was a funeral for a woman that is my biological aunt i didn't go because i knew my mother would be there i hadn't seen my mother in over 23 years because there was something that she did to me and my biological well and and my half-sister uh that i thought was very painful my half-sister just got out of prison

and nobody was there to help her but me i was 31 years old 32 years old and i didn't have you know the knowledge to know how to handle somebody getting out of prison and and what to do because she still was dealing with drugs and different things and and so uh something painful happened over 23 years ago that made me go I'm not gonna deal with you again and so I didn't go to the funeral but at the funeral there was a man there there was friends of the family of the church that the funeral was at. His name was Rick. He saw Deborah at the funeral and said,

oh, I didn't know that Deborah and this young lady that passed were related. I used to mess around with Deborah, and that was the beginning, and so my man was with me. I'm in the studio working on music, and so I was able to hide behind the camera, if that makes any sense. The camera gave me courage when Mr. Rick heard the rumors. It gave me the courage to, after I got the test results, to go see him, go see her, go see other people.

So I wouldn't have to do it by myself. I wonder, Kirk Franklin is there Is there a version in your mind of yourself that you can see that's whole and healed because you say what you You know your therapist said to you how every new trauma Every new experience causes trauma and it feels like that even now like, you know You know who your biological father is but does that make you feel more whole or does it make you just feel even more broken beautiful question beautiful question and it's funny because when you hear this you know you know um and you guys know how

it is man you know it because you've written books you've you've you've you are creative you are creative you know how art imitates life. And so when you're in the middle of hell, the middle of something, it's gonna come out in whatever it is that you would, you know, you know, you're writing, you're doing music. And so even, even in the new record that comes out Friday, man, it's just,

I am trying to figure that out. I'm trying to figure it out lyrically is because i find myself i almost find myself afraid of knowing what even well looks like is because brokenness becomes almost like a blanket and and that's warped that's not healthy and so that's why I know I've got to continue to keep doing the work is because I know that it affects everything

and everybody around me. It affects your understanding of love, and so your wife feels it. Your children feel it. All the people around you feel it, and at the same time, bros, you see how God uses it in this mysterious way because there are so many broken people.

You're able to communicate to them from a space that you can say to them, me too. And I think that sometimes even in the kind of music that I do, it can make you feel like, okay, well, gospel music can be so happy and so up. It's like, you know, it ain't really speaking to my, you know, ish, right? But the music that i've been able to do because i heal as i reveal i really try to communicate my my fragility in

the music so that people can be able to see okay he don't have it all together because i don't and there's a lot about life a lot about god a lot about struggles that I don't understand. And I'm still trying to figure it out. And so I'm trying to do my best to just walk it out. Aren't you just trauma bonding with your listeners then? Wow, that's a strong question. That's a very strong question. I pray that I give them balance. Because I pray that in the lyrical content, in the music,

that as I go through the journey, even like something like Imagine Me, imagine me loving what I see. And then at the end of the song, even though I talk about the beginning of that, I talk about how it's gone. And I think that that's important. I think that David, the psalmist David, right?

And I'm quite sure that you've read psalms before. It sounds a little bipolar, right? You know what I'm saying? One day he's afraid and questioning. One day he's down and one day he's rejoicing. And I think that that duality is necessary. It's because the complexity of life requires an honest approach of how rain and sunshine they coexist in our journey but i think it also allows people to know that they're not alone with their journey that that's what i've

always tried to do you know but what what what what charlamagne just said is something that i definitely want to ponder on this because i think it's such a strong statement and i think that it's very important that as you try to give medicine and try to wrap it in candy, that you are at least trying to give the solution. And so I appreciate you saying that to me so that I can, you know, fight to still try to be accountable because I'm still learning. I think that's the biggest thing.

Like, you know, we're all just still learning, right? Like we're not experts. We're just sharing our experiences. Yeah. And I think that's we're not experts. We're just sharing our experiences. Yeah. And I think that's what you're doing. You're just sharing your experience. Yeah. One thing I love in the doc too, man,

I love seeing folks doing inner child work. And that's what you're doing. You're doing your inner child work. You're trying to heal your inner child. How important is that to you? Man. Got to keep it together, bro. You good, brother? We have you. We got to keep it together, bro.

You good, brother? We have for you. Once again, it's my first week doing it. Yeah, you know, it's amazing because I hadn't been around my mother in decades. And the fact that she won't give me what I'm asking, it's like, just let me know that you didn't know. And you can even say you don't know, but to be so adamant about he isn't your father is powerful because her not giving me that

takes away my ability to be able to even try to embrace it because she still has power over the little boy right and i hadn't seen her in decades like in that amazing in that amazing that you can see the cause of the beginning of your reckless life and hadn't seen them in almost three decades and they still have power over the soul of the little baby you know i could first of all i could never imagine myself in that predicament or position but i'm just trying to put myself in your shoes right and here's a lady that you call your biological mom and you haven't seen her in three decades. Well, 23 years. 23 years, almost three decades, 23 years.

And I guess the question I would want to know is why, right? And the reason I say why is in this situation, it's like, you know, you have kids. I have kids. Charlotte has kids. And it's like, I think I would feel like, damn, you don't want me. And even, even, even though that, you know, I was adopted and it's like you would feel like, well, I'm successful now. I'm Kirk Franklin

and you still don't want nothing to do with me. You still don't want to be to make up for lost time and to try that. That never affected you in any way? Why you got the quiet storm voice on? Because it's just how I feel. I'm about to start crying because I feel him. Because I feel him.

You are amazing. That don't feel weird to you, Kirk? Well, first of all, thank you for the comedy break. And I appreciate it. Thank you for the comedy break. Wait, why are they talking to Kirk? Because I feel him. Because I'm about to start tearing because I feel a way.

Okay. Wow. You are something else. Don't even. And I love how y'all got that brotherhood fire like that. You know, and it's funny because even. I really don't like him. But even that is beautiful to me because I was raised with none of that.

You know, being raised by yourself, that's traumatic. I was the kid, I'm embarrassed to say it, but I was the kid on the last day of school, I would cry because I was going back to a house with an older lady who it was just empty. And I didn going back to a house with an older lady who, it was just empty. And I didn't want to leave these kids because I had no family to go home to. Oh man.

See, and before, see this is why therapy and stuff is so important. Because before the conversation started, before we even turned on the mics, you were telling Envy to keep having kids because you don't want to have an empty nest. And you was like, an empty nest is a motherfucker. You didn't curse, but you might have cursed. You did motherfucker you didn't curse but you might have cursed not this time not this time but you

said and so now that that's the same thing right oh yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah and so you fill your life with noise you fill your life with noise and so uh and then when you talk about well i'm kirk franklin now you still don't want me. I'm going to tell you, whatever that Kirk Franklin thing is, a lot of times makes it worse. It's because success can be traumatizing. And I learned that in therapy. It's because now you've got to deal with, well, how do I maneuver? How do I?

Like, I was so traumatized by successes that when the first album goes platinum, you think a million people like you. And then if the next album goes gold, you're behind things that half a million people don't like you no more. And so I'm honest enough to say it. I'm not the only one that goes through that. And so when those beginning stages of life,

when you don't have people to inform you of who you are, it sets the trajectory of how you process everything in life. Everything in life is through that same filter. I wanna be liked, I wanna be accepted. Am I okay? Am I good enough? And you can be 53 years old still asking, how'd I do?

How'd I do? How'd I do? I'm doing interviews all week, and I'll still pull the publicist to the side. Okay, how was that? Was that good? Was that, you know? And it's because you just still trying to figure out, and I'll still pull the publicist to the side. Okay, how was that? Was that good? You know, was that, you know?

And it's because you're just still trying to figure out. And so all of this just opens up the new wounds. And so that's why I needed this album. I needed this music. I needed to. Man, can you imagine if all this was going on and I was just at the crib having nothing to do? Bro, I needed to be working on music. Does that make sense? Absolutely, honey sense absolutely bro i couldn't be still i had to be doing something because i was going to go crazy

but isn't that a response to trauma though staying busy they always say staying busy is a trauma response it can be it can be and i don't know if all of it is terrible is because there are other results that you could take that could even be more detrimental. You know, drugs, drinking, suicide, you know. I think that the most important thing that I do want anyone listening to understand is because again, it's not just Kirk's story. This is a lot of people's story

and a lot of people live in these spaces, which is mind blowing. All of the responses I've gotten from which is mind-blowing, all of the responses I've gotten from this, is that I just want people to know that you can't wait to get fixed before you get up and win. So what you gotta do is you gotta win wounded. Ooh. Did this help your relationship with your kids? Hold on, that's a par. You gotta win wounded.

That's all of us, right? You got to win wounded. You can't wait for them sorry. You can't wait till the person wants to fix it. You can't wait for their apology. And what they did was wrong. What God allows at times feels so wrong. But we got to be able to trust his heart when we don't understand his hand.

And so you got to win. I need you. Where my camera at? Is that my camera? Where's it at? Queens and kings, no matter what has been brought in your life by the winds and waves of life, I need for you to get up.

I need for you to limp across the finish line. Limp, limp, bleeding, cussing, crying. But I need for you to win wounded now has that strengthened the relationship with your kids has it changed anything with your kids you know it's been very interesting man because you know my kids have loved me through all of my deficiencies. My youngest, who is brilliant, he's a thinker. And he said to me that he said that this has given him another level of grace for me. He said, because you have done the best you knew how to do. He said, man, you, you.

He said, he said, because I don't know not having a life without y'all. He says, man, you know, and again, I don't want him to see his daddy as a victim, you know, but the kindness that they've shown me has really been humbling, you know, the patience, because can you imagine being married to this, you know, you know, somebody that doesn't fully understand what love is. I've always, because once again, just because you're introduced to love, don't mean you're not receiving, you know, if it hasn't been engrafted in you. And so my family, they've been very kind because I know that I've been a lot.

And that, isn't that, your son is at the end of the doc, right? Yeah, my firstborn. That's my firstborn. I was just talking about my youngest. Got you. Yeah. And you got him here when you found, well, when you let Mr. Rick know he was the father. Yeah. Why was that important to them?

Well, first of all, it was a great opportunity to have a reconnection with him. I thought that it would be a moment of healing that could open up an opportunity for us to heal. And so I was very grateful that it was something that he was moved by and to have this reconnection point with him. He had a visceral reaction, though, just like Mr. Rick had a visceral reaction, like immediately, like just tears.

My son is a beautiful soul, man. That's my firstborn. That's my firstborn. It's my first namesake. And you know, I, you know, carry on has been the homie since he was six. He had the passport. I mean, my son and my kids have traveled the world with me and, and, and, and to be able to see him again and to hold him close to me and to just embrace him, you know, man, because I've missed my son. I've missed my son, and I love my son because my son grew me up, you know.

The church killed me when I got a kid pregnant back in, when I got his mom pregnant back in 88, in the 80s, and I was a church musician. Man, the ridicule, but that was my home, that was the home, and I took him to all the choir rehearsals, and, you know what I'm sayingals when I was working on music. And so to be able to hold my firstborn again and to embrace him, it was a very loving moment for me.

How important is it to hear I apologize from your parents? Oh. Oh. Oh, man. Because I would love to hear now. from your parents oh oh oh man because i would love to hear now you know and so uh to be able to hear that um it's very healing i would believe is because it would heal me you know and so i um it was very important that he heard that from me. It was very important for him to be able to know, man, I'm sorry. I'm sorry for stuff I may not even know I'm sorry about. I just need for you to know it.

I need for you to be able to hear I'm sorry because I know the healing that exists in those words. And I just want him to know for the things the for the things i knew for the things i didn't know for the things i'm trying to figure out for the things for whatever for whatever you need to put this in the uh bucket that starts you on your journey as another black man i need for you to hear your daddy say i'm sorry and you can apply wherever you need it i don't care i don't care this ain't about winning. All I want to win is you. That's right. All I want to win is you.

There was another part of the doc, man, where you couldn't call your aunt, aunt. You called her by her first name. And she wouldn't reply to you until you said aunt. Why was that so hard? Call her aunt. Well, these are people that I wasn't raised around my entire life. I didn't have that family dynamic. So I don't have the habit of calling people uncle and aunt. That was not part of my construct.

And so it's not natural for me to do it. So I didn't make any offense it's just these are not people that have been in my ecosystem my entire life and so that's why you know and and and and i do want to make it inextricably clear that i'm not here to bash my mother i'm not here to bash my uncle because these are black women. And it is very important for me to make sure that I still, as a black man, carry the role of covering the most powerful, the most precious treasure that we have to this earth, and that's the black woman.

So I'm not here to do that and and i refuse to do it all right wow i think it's only right that we get into the single off this oh i got one i do got one final question what's that very important being that you've gone through all of this when are you gonna let plies get his dna yo shut up man let's get into a single right now. You know, that is the real reason why I'm here. You know, where's my camera? This one right there. Plyos, I love you. Come home. Oh, my goodness.

Let's get into a single off the album. The album Father's Day is out this week. What you want to play? These guys are crazy. Just have a nice sentimental interview, and you got to end with this. This guy's crazy. First whisper in my ear, you so dumb.

You so dumb. I rocked with you. I rocked with you. This sentimental interview. We all about the tear, and he ends with that. What do you want to hear off the album? Can we get to a joint off the album? New album comes out, man. I'm so excited, excited about the tear and he ends with that new album comes out man I'm so excited excited about the new tour I'm on tour right now man right I'm on tour right now with Todd Tribbett the Clark sisters King and

they're killing it they killing it every night bro the Clark sisters Tamela man take me to the King David man singers the whole band I mean you know, we are at the Prudential Center coming up in a couple weeks. And the new album called Father's Day, it comes out this Friday. And I needed this album, and I hope that it can help heal people like it helped heal me. I'm happy for you, brother. Or that it's trying to heal me. I'm still not there, but I'm excited. What do you want to heal them?

You know what? Needs? You want to do needs? Let's do needs. Let's do needs. Let's do needs. Ladies and gentlemen, we appreciate you for joining us. We love you. We appreciate you.

Love you, brother. Grateful. And ladies and gentlemen, it's Kirk Franklin. It's The Breakfast Club. Good morning. Wake that ass up. In the morning. The Breakfast Club.

Hey, guys. I'm Kate Max. You might know me from my popular online series, The Running Interview Show, where I run with celebrities, athletes, entrepreneurs, and more. After those runs, the conversations keep going. That's what my podcast, Post Run High, is all about. It's a chance to sit down with my guests and dive even deeper into their stories, their journeys, and the thoughts that arise once we've hit the pavement together. Listen to Post Run High on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. go by the name Q war. And we'd like you to join us each week for our show civic cipher. That's right. We discuss social issues, especially those that affect black and Brown people,

but in a way that informs and empowers all people, we discuss everything from prejudice to politics, to police violence. And we try to give you the tools to create positive change in your home workplace and social circle. We're going to learn how to become better allies to each other. So join us each Saturday for civic cipher on the I heart radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. Hey y'all. better allies to each other. So join us each Saturday for Civic Cipher on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, y'all. Niminy here. I'm the host of a brand new history podcast for kids and families called Historical Records. Executive produced by Questlove, the Story Pirates,

and John Glickman, Historical Records brings history to life through hip-hop. Flash, slam, another one gone. Fast, bam, another one gone. John Glickman? Historical Records brings history to life through hip-hop. Each episode is about a different inspiring figure from history. Like this one about Claudette Colvin, a 15-year-old girl in Alabama who refused to give up her seat on the city bus nine whole months before Rosa Parks did the same thing. Check it.

Get the kids in your life excited about history by tuning in to Historical Records. Because in order to make history, you have to make some noise. Listen to Historical Records on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, everyone. This is Courtney Thorne-Smith, Laura Layton, and Daphne Zuniga. On July 8, 1992, apartment buildings with pools were never quite the same as Melrose Place was introduced to the world. We are going to be reliving every hookup, every scandal, and every single wig removal together. So listen to Still the Place on the iHeartRadio app,

Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. Hi, I'm Dani Shapiro, host of the hit podcast, Family Secrets. How would you feel if when you met your biological father for the first time, he didn't even say hello? And what if your past itself was the secret and the time had suddenly come to share that past with your child? These are just a few of the powerful and profound questions we'll be asking on our 11th season of Family Secrets. Listen to season 11 of Family Secrets on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.