The Breakfast Club - INTERVIEW: Mara Brock Akil Talks 'The Revelation of Dionne Daphne,' 'Forever' S2' Protecting Your Energy, Healing From Trauma, Parenthood + More

Episode Date: July 9, 2026

Today on The Breakfast Club, Mara Brock Akil Talks 'The Revelation of Dionne Daphne,' 'Forever' S2' Protecting Your Energy, Healing From Trauma, Parenthood. Listen For More!YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@BreakfastClubPower1051FMSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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Shalameen Nagar. We are the Breakfast Club. Lauren LaRosa is here as well. We got a special guest in the building. The legendary. That's right. Mara Brock Akeal. Welcome back.

Oh, I love being here with you guys. Thanks for having me back. How are you feeling? Amazing. Feeling amazing? I'm feeling amazing. I have another story out in the world in a new way. The revelation of Dion Daphne.

Yes. I get to the book allowed me to have a bigger canvas to go deeper, to go deeper, to go take up more territory, to paint portraits. You know, that's what I've been doing my whole career and just to, you know, to have it this way. I'm really excited. And I've been on, this is the, I'm sort of wrapping up. I have one more stop on my book tour. I'm headed home today, in fact. I'm in the middle of production of season two forever.

shout out, shout out to the team, the collaborators, they have been holding it down so that I can prioritize this amazing moment in my life, a debut novel, you know, and, but yeah, so I have this, you know, I've been telling, making portraits in that medium, and this is my first portrait on the page, and I'm thrilled, I mean, literally just waiting to come in here.

I'm seeing the book out in the world, people posting about it, read it in 24 hours, It's a page Turner. This is a plain read. It is the summer read. It's the summer discussion. A lot to talk about. So the reception I'm enjoying receiving all of, I think the love that I poured into the pen onto the page is coming back to me.

So I'm amazing. When you get all the inspiration? Like you don't never get tired? How does it come to you? Because, you know, people have writers block. They can't think about things. But it seems like you never have it. I don't.

I don't. I don't. I don't. I'm tapped in. I'm really clear on my life. I really believe in people, place, and purpose. And I've locked in. I've locked in.

And so, in fact, one of my challenges is that I have so many stories I want to tell. And I'm trying to figure out with the pace of life and how do I do it all? And also the challenges of business. Sometimes you're writing something, but am I writing something that I'm going to be able to get into the marketplace? So there's two things. and I'm still in the business of storytelling. So I have to think strategically about where do I go next and how much time it takes me to get the story out.

And a book, I really wasn't thinking about it at the time that I started engaging with the book. In fact, it was my body of work that, shout out to Chelsea Johns, my editor who reached out to me during COVID and said, hey, I'm such a fan of the work. You do such complexity with black characters, human characters, specifically women. Would you consider writing a book?

I think your voice would translate beautifully to the page. And I think sometimes you just need somebody to want you. Somebody who's like, I don't have to spend my energy on the proving of myself. Yeah, yeah, I don't have time for that. I got to. So that was that. It was lovely to experience. And, okay, so this is what I want to do.

In fact, this story, I had, I wanted, I thought about the story right after I got staffed on Moisha back in 95. I saw you say that this story is living here. Yeah, it's living. But I put it on the shelf and you can see the subjects in some of my other. I've touched on it a little bit, but it wasn't enough room to talk about what I really want to talk about. And the book's alignment was that.

And I also think, going back to your question about the stories, I found a new outlet to get these stories that are literally living in me. It's almost like I getting this, I feel like I birth the baby. Now I've got more babies in there that I've got to incubate and get out in the world. And so I do have a lot of stories in me. And I'm just looking for, I feel like Lin, you know, Lin met, running out of time. That's right. Yeah, I'm writing like I'm running out of time because we are. We're not promised.

Tomorrow. We're not promised. But we made it here. So what are we doing with our life? What are we doing? And I'm excited about telling this story because I think even for me, I, the, when you heal, when you talk a lot about this, when you heal, you create more capacity for who you really are.

And I think why are we here. And I think that's when we get in harmony with. with alignment and with ourselves and with each other. And we need a new frequency. You guys, I just want to shout out in New York. First of all, you know, I'm bicostal, so I'm partially, you know. But I was here for game one. First of all, I brought the weather that day because it was not supposed to be cute on Tuesday and Wednesday,

but I came in on Tuesday, so it became very cute. And just I wanted to, I remember I want to be there for game one. Did you go to game one? I didn't go physically. I ended up in Brooklyn with all these beautiful black people watching the game and then to go back to L.A. and watch you guys be outside. That heartbeat, that frequency is what we need. And I feel like it's removing in that direction. I feel I hope that the book, how I'm entering the chat about releasing and not getting, not running, not dealing with it. not pushing it to the side. I mean, face your stuff, deal with it, and let it go, and then be curious about yourself,

about where your energy now can go. Because we spend so much energy like Dion, I know we're going to get in talking about the book, but like Dion, who looks like she's got it all together, spending all her energy managing the lids that she's trying to keep on her life. Well, let's talk about the book a little bit. Yeah, the setting is 1990s,

New York City. The plot, Beauty edited Dion, her life gets turned upside down, her exorized with life-threatening news because he has a potential HIV diagnosis. Yes. So she goes on a road trip to confront a childhood secret she's very predicted. Yes. Well, she just,

that is exactly, she's, we're meeting her, like a lot of us, dealing with the hits on our life, her recent hit. She's really doing really well. She's up for job promotion at essence. You know, she's, the, the, the, the, it was the mecca of where you wanted to work if you were a black girl and wanted to be in publishing, magazine publishing. And she's just getting over a guy who took five years of her life. And she wanted to thought she was going to get married.

And so when that knock on the door, you don't ever think, back in the 90s, we did not think that disease was even about us. Until it really took a lot of us down because for a minute, you know, in the late 80s, it was still a gay white man's disease, but that disease was taking a lot of us out, more specifically, our neighborhoods, our communities, our women. Especially when we saw our superheroes. Yes, yes. And we saw EVE and then Magic Johnson.

Wait a minute. Wait a minute. And so if you think it was just, so she was living our best life. This knock comes on the door. And in back then when we had to take the HIV test, it was a two-week wait. Did you imagine?

I remember waiting on. Yeah. I remember. First one that took was two weeks. Man, you're just, you're, your heart's beating. Your heart is beating. You think I may, this could be, my life could be over with this result. Well, that level of pause and reflection is what Dion goes through.

And she has to, because the homework you have to do during the test is to write down all your sexual partners. And when you make a list like that, you have to be also your confronting. yourself. Oh, yes. And the choices that you have made things that you've been complicit in and maybe those that you haven't. And that's a lot to face.

And how did I get here? I'm cute and trying to put this, you know, she's a beauty editor. So she's just trying to tell you what the cutest makeup is and not, and just running away from all these things that you think just because I moved away

from home and got some money in my pocket. Can't raise this thing. Yeah. So crazy. You know, you're talking about something that happened that was big in the 80s and 90s. And I just wanted to Google, but it's still affecting so many people now. They're saying like Atlanta has one of the highest rates in the country, which is just very scary for people out there now.

Because I just remember how me growing up in New York, I know it might be different for everybody. But I felt like it hit New York so heavy. In late 80s, it was big. And like you said, it was a men's, it was a gay white men's disease in the 80s. And in the 90s, it was a crack disease. Right? It was drug disease. People were shooting themselves up, sharing needles.

You just remember seeing it and people affected by it. So I just remember how it was. And the fact that it's still, we still don't have a cure. We can kind of, well, I don't know if we know we have a cure because it's not a cure. It's more manageable. Well, yeah, more manageable. But it's not in the magic system anymore. Well, it's interesting they're talking about prep.

They're taking prep. And so then people are their behavior around sexual or sexual health, people are not wearing the condom anymore. So if I get it, then it's a, okay because I have prep. But why do we want to use our energy that way? Why do we want to use our resources that way? Why do we want to? And I think that's what I'd like us to, because

I just want us to consider how we are using our energy and collectively as people in general under oppressive regimes because that's like what's happening. But we've been managing generation by generation. But I think we're at a beautiful just watching you and be watch your daughter

dance what you and your wife and your family have able to do for her and the protection of her we're at a very critical beautiful place of protecting our future by really dealing with dealing with the stuff we don't want to deal with now

we might as well there's so much happening in the world why not clean out our closets just going and clean out our closets right now to me like Dion because sometimes life is just going to take the rug from underneath you. And so when we meet Dion, the rug is taking out from underneath her. And she's got to go back and face this idea of herself.

And how did I get here? And I'm really hopeful that she will be sort of a champion character for an encouragement to go on and bear your shame. Can we talk a little bit about compartmentalizing? because I feel like Dion does a really good job. And girls like Dion who are like, I have the career and I'm successful. You compartmentalize a lot of things that trauma or whatever that get you to that point. When does Dion, or even for you personally, when do you realize that compartmentalizing doesn't help you, even though you're successful in real life?

Yes. Really great question. One, I think two things can be true. and we are learning how to do that better and better, especially even with the onset of social media, we know how to present many different avatars of ourselves by hiding a lot of times that origin story. And sometimes the origin story is the fuel to get you to a certain place

because you're trying to prove to yourself, I'm not the thing that happened to me or the choices I made. I can wash myself clean with what, we deem success, right? So it's easy to distract ourselves about success, you know, about success. I mean, think about how much time we make content for the gram. Yeah. Versus actually living the life. That's right.

You know what I'm saying? You start believing what you're putting on the ground. Yes, but your life is still over here. So we're carrying two things at once. And that is in and of itself compartmentalization. So we have a skill. It's not to say that that's a bad thing all the time, you know. But that that is what we're doing.

doing, I am saying that is energy. And you were saying what, what for Dion, or for me, when you say it's just too much, when you are, when we are taking energy from our bodies and we don't feel good, we don't look good, we're starting to get sick, you're, it's going to show up in your body because you still are carrying it. Whether you want to pretend it's there or not, or you know it's there and you want to ignore it or you know what let me drink this drink real quick to put it to put it back to sleep and every time you drink that drink you are adding more your this is an energy game people you'm saying like how you what you eat what you drink who you hang with so imagine if you're constantly holding on to the trauma that you never dealt with um that you even

lying to your therapist that's right you know like you know like but you're pretending i go to church, I'm dealing with it, but you're not really dealing with it. And I think it's when it shows up in the body from me when, and I was just like, okay, why, where's my energy? Why is it hard? And it's not just age. It's not in we, and I think that's another thing that I think is a part of a capitalist thing that, oh, it's your age. No, no. If you take care of yourself, your body will take care of you. But how, and we're talking about a lot of the external things, like there's a lot of growth in, um,

and a lot of investment in like the wellness spas. Great. But what are we doing on the inside? Yeah. And that is a messy job. And Dion has a messy, messy, messy two weeks. And she and she literally puts it, um,

she's step by step. It's funny. That's been my walkout music. Step by step. But anyway, bring Whitney to the party. And, um, I think that's what we do.

Stop running from the storm. turn around face the storms go through it have you guys ever been in the storm like it's and then you get on the others i was in florida once i thought i was going to die inside this storm i didn't know what to do anymore but it i couldn't go back i couldn't go forward just i was just going slow so slow and then i'm literally praying white-knuckling the the steering wheel just praying to god like i don't even know what to do and then suddenly i was on the other side and it was like paradise That's right. It was like, it was almost like, what happened did I go through a portal?

And that is true. We will go through a portal. And then for me, me going through my own portal, my lemons are now technically my lemonade. That's right. You know, it's technically the lemonade. And I think what I think I'm really gifted at is talking about now, talking about the truth through fiction. so that sometimes there's just a little bit of a distance from it so that we can just there is a bit of entertainment you know to the storytelling is entertainment let me hold

your attention to give you a fable put the medicine in the candy yeah how does it affect your mental right because you're talking about trauma sexual abuse generational pain healing so how does it affect you when you do it because you have to open up some of your wounds yes absolutely you know it's funny isn't how we get vaccines yeah they give us a little bit You got it. Yes. So you got to open it up and I think it's okay, you know. In fact, when I was writing this book, there's like this last little, the last like real effort to know, is this really a book?

Because like, literally, guys, I was like, if this ain't good, I'm just going to give them a check back. What I'm not going to do is come out with a book and be like, oh, it's just fail. I had to know that I loved it. And in that last push, I was here in New York. I love to write here in New York. And I have a whole writing ritual. And the last, last week, I literally fasted so that I can stay completely focused, called on God, called on my angels. I just sort of wrap myself in this cocoon of creativity, expectation for God to show up in the creative process.

and so what happens is when you do have to open it up but it's it's almost like you're baptizing your wounds in that and it was the fasting I mean it was I don't know if you've ever fasted especially for like Ramadan you you it's all of that toxicity comes up but then it free then it just leaves your body it's like a birthing of excuse me just kind of letting it out you can almost physically feel it come off of your body

So that was my that's what happened for me. So it was also a sign that this is, this can go out into the world. And, and so that has been empowering. And I do believe I loved it. Just like when I wept in forever, the last, I loved it. But I can rock with that. I know how to, I know how to fight for, protect, provide, promote, defend that. body of work.

And so... You can do that with this. Oh. And I think, and that was the last... You know, I think I'm a great writer because I was afraid to talk. Like, I really envy. People get... Y'all out here every day, just flowing, trusting your voice.

Is it because you were a journalist prior to, so it was about the story? No, I became a journalist because I learned how my voice got trapped. In order to survive certain things, you silence is how you move. Oh, let's stay there for a second, right? Because this book does deal with secrets. Do you think secrets protect us or to your point in prison us? Oh, absolutely in prison us. But sometimes when you're, you know, certain situations,

you can't say anything at that point because then you likely can be harmed further than you're already being harmed. So I, silence was my protector until it becomes your oppressor when you don't even know how to use your voice. so going back to writing, I think that voice was in me, but I found it through the pen. Whereas in writing, which is why I think I'm a pretty, pretty good writer, is I rewrite, rewrite, rewrite, rewrite, rewrite, rewrite, rewrite, rewrite, rewrite, rewrite, rewrite, rewrite, rewrite, rewrite, rewrite, rewrite, read, write, read, judge it before I'm happy with it. When you off the cuff, your intuition, your feeling of the moment, I never trusted that.

and that's when it started to feel like my oppressor, that I have things to say and I'm not even, like I've been on your show and I thank you for always having me, but I feel better and better each time because the nervousness of being, if I say the wrong thing and back when, you know, if I say the wrong, I don't know where I'm going to be and I almost broke into tears,

watching you watch your daughter. I was her age when things were happening to me instead of my father somewhere providing for my ability to express myself as beautifully and artistically. The amount of time and effort you and your wife and your family have put into

that child and you have more than one child, that child, and see the greatness in her at nine years old because she is loved and provided and protected. Imagine if we were all that way. And so when I look at that, I'm like, I didn't have that. I didn't have that. You still long for it sometimes, like that feeling of protection?

Well, this is what I wanted, one of the revelations I had in writing this book, but I love all the storylines, but one of the storylines is the friendship storyline between Dion and Farah. and what that storyline every time i do something i do expect something back but i don't never know when the revelation of it hits me but i had to edit the copy editing of a book i see you with your book jess congratulations but that copy editing part is arduous i just want to pull my hair out and i was being kind of fussy in a bad energy space and i said let me get my let me get my situation together let me this is a blessing let me reread and the chapter that i reread was when

Farah and toward the end of the book where the arc of that friendship is there. And what I realized so much about the fringe, what really girlfriends are, why girlfriends resonates to this day is I now understand the power deeper. Girlfriends or friends, guy friends, we represent surrogate parents. And they will hold us until we are strong enough so that we, we're. we can re-parent ourselves. That's why I wanted to get to. It's about reparenting ourselves. So when you ask me about the longing, I know need to long because when I do, I then go do something for Mara. I then become the father that didn't. I become the mother

that couldn't, whatever, for myself. And then what that then does is I can look at my parents and I can put them in the context of their history, of their life and of the world, And I can then have empathy and compassion for them. And they've stopped becoming mom and dad and they become their names. And I get to know them. And I get to love them. And then I get to know better my name. Yeah.

And then I do better my purpose. And I understand, no, I don't, that the things that have happened to me were supposed to happen to me because I am in my light right now. I'm my best when I'm a storyteller. And so I'm here. and even my guilt sometimes about parenting my career I don't always get to tuck my kids and I don't get to make the right snacks

and I don't always get to carpool my kids so again a blessing but then I told them who I am as opposed to the kind of mother I think I'm supposed to be one of the greatest gifts you can give your kids when you have a conversation with your parent and realize that person had a life before they were your parent

yes oh it's so free and then And knowing that your kids love you just as much as you love them and they make, but there is this, when you free yourself of guilt, I have all this energy back to think of more creative ways that I can be uniquely their mother. Not the way the picture says I'm supposed to do it or the way Jess does it or the way that, you know what I'm saying? Or the way that envy's wife does it. I don't have to be like her. I can be like me. And because these kids chose us. and they came to get something from us.

But I want to ask, what are we giving them? Are we giving our children the best of who we are? Or do they are still managing our unhealed pain? I think it depends where you are as a parent, right? Because, you know, when you're a parent and you come up short in parents, like you can see it. You can see when you do something that impacts your child in a negative way. Are you willing to apologize?

Yes. I do that a lot. Me too. You know, and the conversations that can open up between you and a seven-year-old are life changes. My daughter is seven, right? Yeah. So it's just like just apologizing and having that. You just feel like you're talking to a 30-something.

Yes, they have such wisdom. That's right. And look, it's just, that's what I'm saying. That's what I want to protect. And you talk a lot about healing. And I think you know the impact on your life. Look at where, I mean, listen, I mean, just recently where you guys have. achieved together. I mean, come on, generational wealth. There's just we've got, we can unload

this and have moments of parenting like that where we have really created more of a garden box for our children to grow and not just, you know, and you can, you know, use honesty and authenticity as the fertilizer for that. And that to me is like saying, hey, what I'm trying to tell you is true, the way I said it was a little fucked up. Oh, sorry. No.

Okay, I'm sorry. That's how it should be. And, but what I'm trying to tell you, I'm telling you this is how I think I'm, I think you might need this for your protection or for your this or for your that. Like even, I tell my sons all the time, you have to understand every thought I have is for the, I want for you to be great.

And what it then creates is, okay, but mom, I have an idea. Okay, well, then tell me. Communicate. Just tell me it because I'm going to overthink it to death. Oh, God. Yeah, as a mom, that's what you do. And I'm nagging you. Yeah.

I don't mean to. This is my love. This is love and I'm frustrated. You won't listen to me. But, oh, you have an idea. Okay, well, what's your idea? That's right. And how old was your,

a kid before they came to you and told you that though because I feel like with my son he's 14 right and when he was younger I wasn't I wasn't healed I was unheeled I was operating out of toxicity I was dysfunctional but now I have my one year old she's on a way to be in two and I feel like I'm a total different mom well I am a total different mom than I was back then this was 14 13 12 years ago you know what I mean and I have that parental guilt because I wasn't this mom for my son at this age. Have you ever talked to him about that? I have after writing my book because my book is a co-parenting

where I reflect on all the things. And see, that's what I love about writing. The writing's going to make you pause. You've got to figure some things out. And in that thing, let's say you never, listener, and you never publish a book. You never literally even put it out. But that process is the reflection and the healing

that you even already had. Your son, you're saying, at 14, has already received an apology or a understanding of how, hey, I wasn't hurt. But you still have him. First of all, that's going to feel good. Whether he understands it in the moment or not, the seed is already there.

And he also is, he loves you the most. His eyes are on you all. So he already sees your chain. But now you're almost saying to him, I'm sorry, I couldn't be that for you, but I'm here now. So 14 on, boo boo,

it's me, you know, we hear. That is empowering. And I feel like that, I think that is just as healing. And you have him in your, under your roof for another,

at least four years for sure, you know. Or however long you want to stay. Just putting it out there. Yeah. But they're going to, they're going to eventually, you're right.

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This week on the podcast Hey Jonas we're hanging out with the one, the only, the only and the one Michael Bubele. You guys, I'm genuinely a huge fan. Like, it's funny, you know, I made a whole thing about doing this TikTok where I got you guys to sign the guitar. But it was real, like, we listen to in the car all the time. Like, it literally is hanging up with all your signatures.

Wow. I am so honored. After Kevin's recent, let's call it, interesting confession about Michael. I had a feeling this wasn't going to be going away. We figured there's only one thing to do. We must invite Michael Buhlay on the podcast, and we want to know what's on his sexy time playlist. You know, I did an interview, and they're like, have you heard about this Jonas Brothers thing?

And they were like, what did you think of it? I was like, well, I mean, it's reciprocal. Like, what a man going to do? What a man ought to do? We talk about Kevin's confession, Michael's reaction, and a whole lot more. Do you have a hockey rink in your house? I do. I do.

Our conversation with Michael Bubleigh is out now. Listen to Hey, Jonas, in the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts. What's up, fam? I'm sports journalist Ari Chambers. Hey, what's up? Y'all, it's your girl, Sam J. And we're the host of everyone watches women's sports, a new podcast from Together and I Heart Women's Sports.

Because let's be real. Women's sports is giving us way too much to talk about these days. The highlights, the rivalries, the breakout stars, the moments that take over your entire timeline. And the conversations that start during the game and somehow keep going all week. Every week we're breaking down the biggest stories across women's sports. We'll give you our takes, our debates,

and probably a few disagreements. We'll talk to athletes, celebrate big moments, and get into what's happening on and off the field, sport, track, and beyond. Because we're not just interested in what happened. We're interested in why everyone's talking about it. Because everyone watches women's sports. So if you're already a fan, you're just getting into the game, there's a seat for you right here.

Listen to everyone watches women's sports. On the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. Hey, I'm Hoda Kotby, host of the podcast, Joy 101 with Hodokadke. Okay, if you know me, you know this. always searching for inspiration, for support, and useful tools to help maximize joy. So this podcast lets us uncover all of that together. We're going to have these meaningful conversations with the world's most fascinating people, like when actress Olivia Munn shared how she overcame fierce health challenges that she never saw coming. I've gone through breast cancer and then helped my mother

through breast cancer, and that was more difficult. There's a lot of people who understand postpartner depression I was not prepared for postpartum anxiety. Olympic champ Sean Johnson revealed why she had no choice but to be a gymnast. There was something about gymnastics that was intoxicating to me. It's given me a belief that we all have one of those treasures inside of us. We just have to find it. Listen to Joy 101 with Hoda Kotby on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Our housing situation is going to change because of the nature of the future and jobs.

but to your point, but there's going to be a day he's going to want his own because he wants, he needs to know because he's so loved by you and the whole family that he wants to flex and show he wants you, he wants to experience the highest version of himself. And that's what healing does all around. And I think that, I think on the guilt part, I still think that I would say, you have to pause and reparent yourself in every moment that that comes up and ask yourself, am I doing my best? And if you're not, what can you do in the moment? Like, I'm still like, I have my assistant helping me about feeding them. Like, that's one of the biggest ones.

Like, I don't cook. I'm never even home haul all the time. But even like trying to just not even have them think about cooking. At least I'm the one who thought about what a postmate. Yeah. And I'm trying to be better about that. because they can do it themselves, but I'm trying to do like,

no, it's still my, it's still under my jurisdiction and responsibility for you to eat, and this is what I like for you to eat, and here it is. Oh, good. Is writing this more vulnerable

than writing television? Because there's no way to hide. Like, you know, no, there's no, nothing, it's you. Well, to your point, what's going to hold a reader? And so I think a deeper truth is what holds a reader.

In television, though I think I do really, I dig deep. I can mix it with other storytelling ads like music, the cinematography, the tone, the vibe, the interiors, the exteriors, the clothing, the setting. I'm holding you with all of that information. Whereas with the reader, you have to imagine the world. You're building the world with me. When I say the color green, I'm assuming the four of you have four different shades.

When I say, you know, she cried. You guys have four different ways that she cried. And we get to build the world together. And that's what makes it so intimate. Did I give you enough for you to feel and stay connected to me? as I tell you the story. What's easier writing or filmmaking?

Neither. I don't, I don't, I don't, they're both joyful for me. And joyful does include some hard, some challenging nights. Yeah. I, and it also includes some, my mom loves this word, some heripulations.

I have, you're almost, heripulations are almost like, like, like, no, it's all, It's like, it's like enthusiasm on, on a thousand. Oh, yeah. You know what I'm saying? It's like goosebumps and just like, and you, and that, those moments, guys, when I'm having her repulations, you know God's in the room.

Because you know it's not really coming, you're not thinking. So something's coming through you, you're being fed. And so you're just like, ha, let me just try. Okay, hold on, hold on. And you, and you can, it's like writing. And that's why I know now I understand surfers. Sometimes, you know, living on the West Coast, you drive, you know, PCH, you're like, they're just sitting in the water.

They're not doing anything. But when you catch a wave on riding, you will sit in that water. And sometimes you only ride a little wave, a little wave. But when you want to catch those big ones. And that's what I've been doing my whole career. I've been catching the big ones. And that's where the heripulations are. But a lot of days, you're just sitting in the water.

Yeah. But that's a part of it too. You've got to be in the water to catch the wave. You've got to sit in the chair and expect and work with it and try to ride the dragon of trying to figure out how to tell you a story that keeps your attention long enough for us to have maybe deeper conversations and about healing. Sometimes, you see the head of talk about healing. Nobody wants to talk about it. But when you get in somebody's business, because this book, you all up in Dion's business. And you get to walk with her as her.

her life gets pulled from underneath her, and her pilled herself right back up. And I feel like those triumphs are worth the, the hard parts. I'm trying not to use the word hard. I think that's what you see me stuttering. It's around this, it's not hard when you choose it. It's a commitment.

And to that commitment, there are so many joys in it. And there are so many days. that are challenging. Challenging. Like the gym. Yeah. It's like the gym. Yeah.

How long did you have to sit in the water for forever season two? Oh, well, it was interesting because at the, while we were filmed right toward the end of filming season one, I knew what season two was. Mm-hmm. However, Netflix and I had a conversation about, because, and it was designed this way,

Justin and Keisha are COVID babies. They're the part of the generation who's some of the biggest rights of passage timing in their life is affected because COVID. But a lot of statistics and a lot of algorithms and a lot of data saying that audiences will tune out if people have masks on their face. They just cannot deal with that. And so we just had a real conversation and back and forth. about whether or not, you know, we'll do the COVID years. And but I already knew what it was. I knew what that season was.

And I knew that that was going to be a challenge. And I had all these ideas about what I wanted to do. But I prayed on it. And I said, okay, let's take the leap. And so when you asked me how long I sit in the water with that, this is where collaboration and teamwork, the first person I said to Netflix, I said, where is Erica Harrison? he's an executive producer on the film

I'm on the film excuse me it feels like a film that we write it an eight hour film but Erica is my right hand in the writer's room and we sat down we love the show it's in our DNA we sat down for three days

and we pitched the we understood we understood the vision of where we were going we went in and pitched it to our partners at Netflix they were lovely they heard it they got it they understood it um and we then hired an amazing writing staff from there brought back as many of our our players our other collaborators um you know

in production that we could um that's one of the challenges about not keeping production going you could lose some of the people that you do it with but it then makes space for new new people and so that's where we are now we are um mo marble is directing this book block right now in Los Angeles and he's incredible to work with. We're midway through production. So you're skipping COVID though. You're skipping the COVID years. But we're not skipping.

So what was challenging and what was fun, this is what it's the kind of the work you do for a book. What is the backstory to a moment? So what we had to do is we had to build their backstory in COVID to understand how we drop you into the summer of 2023. And so we have to know all of what happened. We have to build that. And that's what you do to do a book.

Only I get to put it on the page. Whereas in the show, we had to build it so that writers understood where the characters were when we were talking about and how we reveal what happened during COVID, too. So it's a fun way to write. And I realize, oh, just playing around with my writing style in two different forms. Constantly revealing. The COVID years were difficult years, too, though. Because, you know, I have six kids.

So my. My daughter who she graduated high school COVID years and started her freshman year in college and she lost both of those. Because high school, she had to close out online and then her first year in college, she had to do line. So now her second year where they move off campus,

she doesn't have any friends. Because the first year was just... She didn't have any of those bonding. So I've seen how it affected kids without having that. Those were bad times for kids. And we need to say, I think, you know, that's something that we should be looking for in our, you know, in our state funding.

How are we giving children? Like, I think about this. One of the thing I love writing about the 90s, though there was the shadow of HIV, but it was all the promise of the future. Our black culture was, we were monetizing black culture in the 90s. We were getting, we were coming up in the 90s. There was, I mean, Dion represents a woman. is a pioneer of the first time that we can consider careers that our mothers and grandmothers could not even dream of.

So we were, it was full of a future, to your point about the kids. Now, how do you dream? Though they're doing, are we checking in on them in a way? But a lot of times we can't check in on them because we ain't dealt with us. We can't even see that they're, we might need to give some attention to them. Right. We're taking up our issues, undelt issues, we're taking up too much space in our lives

that we cannot see what needs to be handled right now. In fact, I'm so happy to be here with you guys. On the book tour, shout out to my book tour. Black women show up and show out all the time. We are the backbone of this country, point bang, period. Where I am excited and I'm really hopeful and also have this conversation, especially being girl dads,

I think the allies to this book need to be girl dad. Because knowingly and unknowingly, when Dion had to make that list, there are some guys on there who probably in, they probably knew

that they could manipulate and that's still happening today. And I would love for fathers to give their dad, daughter some game. Not to say that you're not, but really being focused about what's going on out there. One, to

protect them in their body so that they are not being robbed of their body autonomy, that they have a relationship with their body that is purely theirs and they can grow into understanding who they're on. By the way, our children's brains do not develop

until, I'm going to say 27. They say 25, but I said 27. because I've just decided. I've decided it's 27. So Daddy's mommy, we got to be protecting these babies until then and reminding them and finding creative ways to get to them to protect them. But also to our sons, fathers telling the sons how to treat, hey, you know,

there are going to be some young ladies out there. And by the way, boys, too. we don't even talk about what's happened to boy, that they don't even feel at all they can talk about what happened to them. So anyway, I just would love to, in this, as I build and get the word out about the book. And I really just want us to have conversations for healing. That's what I mean, the book is just really me entering the chat to talk about. A lot of my portrait works are, let's look at us for real, y'all, from the good to the bad and the in between.

It's like a protest on shame. Come on. Can I have that for my... A protest on shame. Yes. It really is. And I think, you know, we unnecessarily are holding on to too much of it, how much we get beat upon as humans, period, but more specifically, black people. I think I want us to collectively, instead of...

Let's be a protest on shame. So anyway, I want the girl dads to help out. I think you guys are my natural next ally because the black women are holding it down. And I would really love girl dads to get into a conversation with their daughters about why daddy is trying to protect you, you know, and what's really going on out in the world. And this is what, you know, this is people pleasing

and how that differs from pleasure. So we've got to get into helping her understand the difference of this. and what is really on the minds of you guys having real conversations. And, you know, you can find it in Instagram, but it's nothing like your daddy telling you. It's tough, man. I'm not saying it's easy.

It's not an easy conversation at all. But you can still say, and you can take it in degrees, and also our children are made in degrees. And some are going to be right in on the conversation, some are going to be out. And it's our job. to figure out how to reach them.

And if it's not you, you know, the strategy of like, hey, Auntie, you may say this. And then, you know,

the echo chamber of how we want to get information and care and love to our children. I got homies having conversations with their daughters about going to the birth control. And I'm like,

you, you better than me. You can't do that. Come on. Wait a minute. Are you telling me, You can't have that conversation. He's a soft thing in real life.

But my oldest just turned 18. Have you talked to her about... No. Really? About the first time you had sex. What? What age were you? The first time I had sex?

Yes, sir. I don't know, like 17, 18, maybe. Wow. That's... I think you think it's difficult, though, because, like, that's your baby. I don't even talk about it, man. Okay.

But they're the only ones that he's tough with, just his daughters. Everybody else. Very rough. Very rough. That's not true. That is very true. It's just about that particular topic.

That topic. And but that topic, you know, we've got, we're going to talk about, there's another, Anna Malika Tubbs has a book called Erase. And it really talks about the founding of sex, procreation and all of this and how it really is tied into the founding of this country,

but by those particular, that patriarchy. My point is, I believe we are healing still from that level of trauma in our country. And so the mixing of what we, I guess this was the question I even had when I started the book, is our sexual agency as women now, true liberation, or an echo of the trauma. Because we have to understand. And I'm not saying that again, that's powerful. Yes, is our sexual agency today, ladies,

our sexual agency, how we deal, is it really liberation? Or are the echoes of the trauma that we still have not healed? Our bodies, women, girls, need to be. should be not only protected but we the we should feel safe enough to show the beauty of us and that be honored and but it's somehow you know even we talk about um massagony that's not particular to men that is a concept that even women can adopt and call it freedom and if it

This, I mean, if a woman has her sexual agency through liberation, great. You're talking about the feminist movement? Well, no, I'm even talking about feminist movement. I'm talking about body autonomy. Our bodies, our bodies are bantied about in politics all the time because if we understand the origin of this country, white women's bodies are to produce a certain air. our bodies, our black bodies were to produce labor, a labor force. Real.

Talking about that this morning. That is happening. So is that gone? I don't know. How is it showing up in everyday life when I can be bad all by myself? And I can, do you understand? I don't know. I'm not saying and I'm not, I'm not, there's no.

So I'm just asking, can we examine? And I think, Dion, when you've got to face, A, the number of lovers you have or sexual, partners that you had and how did I get here, how did I get here? And she takes you on how she got here and where she is currently. And so then the question becomes, I'm going back to you and your conversation with your daughters about why not tell her what young boys are thinking when they see young girls. Why not say, hey, what is pleasure? like you know on forever all the it's intentional to to depict young girls who are sex positive they're all

sex positive kisha went through a a social challenge but she used that phone as as a lot of us do as a part of their sexual play and that is something that can be healthy if it stays contained but if it doesn't it becomes and those are the boundaries that there was not enough protection and providing for and helping us to negotiate and helping our children understand

that choice and even Keisha says herself I betrayed myself I betrayed myself and when you take ownership of yourself then you're going to the next time you're going to be a little different even if you still make the same choice you're making it from a different, a more informed place, a more, so anyway, I just, those conversations, I think, Charlemagne,

it can't just be mothers. I've talked to my sons about a woman's point of view sometimes. Just giving you some, just giving you something to think about. Just giving you something to think about. That sometimes some young women, you know, especially unheeled ones, a little good attention might just feel like the dad they never had and he's going to cling different. Even though you told her, let's keep it casual. Yeah, you told her that. But for her to lay down,

she's laying down with her heart. She's laying down with a void in her. And it's not just casual. And so you got to be able to detect because then you might then be partially, she might ask you to be responsible for something she can't deal with you.

You want that? And so those are the conversations I think we can get besides, you know, how to do it and how to. I mean, even like you were saying in the statistics of HIV and AIDS going up in our black communities, that's disheartening. Because I would just say, dang, just from a resource gain, you could take that money and go on a vacation than having to constantly buy your medicines. You know? I think we just, how do we shift the energy? Energy is resources and we have a lot of it and it's trapped in the compartmentization of our body most time.

Ooh. Yeah. I think about these things. Thank you. Thank you. We love it. You know, I got to ask because every time you mentioned the great girlfriend. Oh, come on.

You know, that was the last question. My timeline grows up every single time, right? You give us a number this time. It's always a number. No, the first time I gave a number with you when I was promoting love is. I gave a number and that number still stands. What are people that? Do there any movement when you say anything?

There is. It's funny. You know, there is this, it's interesting the last, I think with the success of forever, I think people are like, oh shit, she's not gone. She's still got it. Then there was some reach out, but can you do it for this price? Like, guys, I, no, no. This is how I, and this is where healthy Mara comes into play.

This is how I want to experience it. That's it. Just like, I want my sex this way. I want my teeth. I would just like to, I want to experience it this way. That's a powerful thing. Going back to the, then, okay, whatever you want, I'm talking about sex, more in business, whatever you want.

And then I may or may not get what I want out of it. Because you people pleasing. Because I'm people pleasing. I'm in a place right now with girlfriend. I don't, I want to do it. I've made that clear, right? I want to do it. The cast wants to do it.

But I believe there is a value on this. It is. And I also know what 50 million will turn over is insane. And so if I can't do it, the way that I think it deserves, why am I doing it? And so, and I haven't come up with yet

a story that I'm excited to tell at a different budget. Because guess what that is? More energy. Just more thinking. And I've got, I got forever to do. I got a book to promote.

I got kids, you know, to raise. I've got, I've got a life to live too. I need to have, I need to put rest in there. I got tennis to play. You know, I got, you know, and so I have a story that I think would be amazing. And I think, and also, this is another thing, what's going to make people, it's all these markers, like, the film's got to be this to get people out of the house.

So I need $50 million to get people out of the house and not just, I don't want you to watch it on a streamer. I want to see Joan outfits. That's right. I want to see Tony outfits. I want to see Maya outfits. I want to see Lynn. outfits. I want to see William suits. I want to see I want to see people come out and celebrate something we've been loving for 25 years. And I want to have a party. I want us to go out

afterwards. You know what I'm saying? I want us to talk about I want us to show up with our friends, this friend group, that friend group. Yeah. I want that. I want us to I want those ladies to be at canned killing the red carpet. You know, Like killing it. That's everything they deserve and you deserve them. Exactly. So right now I think $50 million is a bargain. Otherwise, I'll use my energy and I'll go maybe write another book or I'll go do something else, another storyline.

I know how I'd like to end girlfriends and how I would like to experience it. Could Mara Brock McKeel be comfortable with not giving girlfriends the proper closure? Because Mara Brockett Kill gave it all. What about us? No. What about us to think? No, no, no. We need to close you.

But no, but I know. I know. I know. So then, okay, so then what? We're going to start up. Go fund me right here. Can we get a million people to give $5? I think people would do that for you and girlfriends so easily, especially with the new wave of like

the Netflix and people sitting down and rewatching it again. I don't think that. I don't know if you want to do that, but I think that the world will come to them and support. If I could, I don't want, guys, what I don't, what I can do is going to go build a whole campaign to go. I don't, when I think about my time, the amount of, if you said, if you guys said right now,

we can go online and say a million dollars for five, a million people for five bucks, and we have 50 million, Marl will go make that. But if I, I'm not begging. Yeah. No.

Let me show up. I think when we honor our artists, our storytellers, we are the people who help build culture. Honor us. invest in storytelling invest in support so that we can all

eat and because what's here's here's here's the truth about storytelling it's a great asset you build girlfriends and to that end the economy will shift people will buy outfits they'll buy tickets they'll buy

merch they'll buy dinner reservations they'll go it go to the movie several times because they want to be Joan Tony Maya and Lynn yes it's a rebirth of an era of people's lives. Yes.

And it's right in alignment with all the fashion people who are putting out 90 stuff. It makes no sense. So it has to ask you, why? Because there's a constant devaluation of black women. And as a black woman,

I cannot participate in that devaluation. I agree with you. It's going to happen, man. It's going to happen. It's going to happen. It's going to happen. It's going to happen. It's going to happen at some point.

You have been one of my biggest supporters and I want to say, always say thank you to you. Always. Can I ask you, just so I, I can, what is it about girlfriends that you love so much? Well, you know, me and my wife been together, ooh, it'll be 28 years this year.

Congrats. No, yeah, 28, I don't remember, 25, 28, I can't remember now. But when she was in college, she's going to kill him. And I used to go to her house. Let him come back to life. She would always be watching it. And so I just started watching it. And for me, it was like, it was kind of like how we talk about secrets.

It was like women, black women, especially, letting men in on the, their secrets. Yes. I'm like, these are the kind of conversations y'all be having. So then it becomes a conversation starter between you and the women in your life. So it's just something that I ended up having an emotional attachment to. I love that. I love that.

Well, yeah. Thank you for always having you guys always make me feel safe, welcomed. And I really appreciate you guys. And again, congrats to what you're doing. And thanks for me, thanks for letting me a part of your journey as well. Thank you. or Brock McHale, ladies and gentlemen. The revelation of Dion Daphne out right now.

And there's our audio book, too. Oh, yes, DeWan DeWise. Can we shout her out? She did an amazing job. Yes, yes, yes. It's the Breakfast Club. Good morning. Hold on.

Every day I wake up. Wake your ass up. The Breakfast Club. Are you all finished or y'all done? Hey, everyone. This week on the podcast, hey Jonas. We're hanging out with Michael Boubley. After Kevin's recent, interesting confession about Michael.

We figured there's only one thing to do. We must invite Michael Boubley on the podcast. podcast and we want to know what's on his sexy time playlist. You know, I did an interview and they're like, have you heard about this Jonas Brothers thing? And they were like, what did you think of it? I was like, well, I mean, it's reciprocal. We talk about Kevin's confession, Michael's reaction, and a whole lot more. Our conversation with Michael Boubley is out now.

Listen to Hey Jonas on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Joy is essential and it's also elusive. But now, there's a new and exciting way to start your journey toward a more joyful existence. Joy 101. It's a new podcast hosted by me, Hoda Kotby. If you're craving inspiration to maximize your joy, tune into these candid, uplifting, and moving on-air chats. Listen to Joy 101 on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts,

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