The Breakfast Club - INTERVIEW: Michael Eric Dyson On Trump-Biden Rematch, J. Cole's Maturity, Beyonce's Achievements + More

Episode Date: April 12, 2024

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Wake that ass up early in the morning. The Breakfast Club. Morning, everybody. It's DJ Envy, Jess Hilarious, Charlamagne Tha Guy. We are The Breakfast Club. We got a special guest in the building. That's right, the good brother. Michael Eric Dyson. Welcome back, brother. Hey, it's good to be here. The new digs, they look great. Wow, man. Sal, how come no pictures of Dyson on the wall, Sal? The hairline look crispy, brother.

I was about to say the same thing. You got the crispy headline. You know I had to get it faded up before I came here, man. You know I had to hang with y'all. I had to get right, man. Now, you're in town for the National Action Network Summit. Something the good brother, Reverend R. Charlton, has been doing for years. What exactly is that? Well, it's a convention,

an annual gathering for his organization, National Action Network, and it's a remarkable gathering of all kind of folks. I was at the gala last night. He's honoring everybody from Whoopi Goldberg to Caroline Wenger, the CEO of Essence, to, you know, the young lady Alexis McGill who runs the Planned Parenthood. So it's an awards banquet.

But the entire gathering, you might see Vice President Harris, you might see President Biden, you might see Charlemagne Tha God rolling through there, DJ Envy. And it's an incredible gathering to talk about politics, culture, religion, and what we do as a society to respond to the need for justice. And I'm actually a keynote for the minister's luncheon on Friday to try to talk about social justice and the necessity of the church connecting to the social justice arena. OK, well, it is a big election. Yeah, it is a big election. Ready to dive in. Man, how are you feeling? Biden, how you feel about Trump? The rematch America does not want. It's true, but it's what we got. You know, I want the Lakers to be every year in the finals because I was raised as a Lakers fan.

But that ain't who's playing. You know, it's probably going to be the Nuggets and maybe the Celtics. So you got to choose one of them. And the thing is, is that, yes, we think we want better choices because we want better choices. We think that better people should run because we think better people should run. But these are the people running. I happen to believe that there is not even a question for black people of who to choose. I mean, Joe Biden has been far above anything that president or ex-president Trump has provided.

I saw him in the what was it? Chick-fil-a talking about jobs bro i mean the unemployment rate of black america now is about 5.6 when biden came into office it was 9.3 uh he's talking about money and checks and i see sexy red and other rappers talking about he gave us a check first of all please study your politics and your civics that's the congress that allotted that money plus it's yo dough and if you're going to count that way then count what biden did for relieving the the burden of people paying back their student loans and on and on and on when we look at every metric not only putting a black woman in the vice

president's office not only putting a black woman on the Supreme Court, but doing programs that lift all boats, that address African-American people, specifically in some instances, but more broadly, issues that are concerning us, whether it's about discrimination in housing, whether it's about not only student loans, but every effort of education, kicking kids out of school early and on and on and on. It ain't no question for me. Donald Trump is a vortex of bigotry. He is the leader of the bigotocracy, the rule reign and tyranny of forces that are antithetical to our best interests, not only as black people, but as a nation. And when we look at every indication of where we are as a nation, this is a guy who's still standing by people who supported January 6th, the insurrectionists. He's trying to make them American patriots, but demonizing Black Lives Matter, demonizing people who protest for the right and the ability to live in this nation without the unjust encumbrances imposed on us by white supremacy so i don't understand what black people see in donald trump's swag i mean come on it's borrowed swag at best it's referred swag at best i mean barack obama had swag coming down air force run it might as well been you know 50 cent playing in the background i don't know what you heard about me but the right can't get a dollar out of me right he had swag but he had a tan suit and people went crazy. Now Donald Trump,

the face of neo-fascism, the face of an authoritarian government that has already indicated if he gets back in office what he's going to do, there ain't no choice for us. And black people, we got to wake up. These are the things we have to attend to. And look, you saw the article, I think in the New York Times Times yesterday that said recently that said that Donald Trump and the Republican Party are supporting third party interests because those detract from and take votes away from Joe Biden. So we know in a tight race, every vote counts. Jr. in particular. And I think that, again, this is not time for this extended journey of narcissism, this escapade of self-deification. Bro, these are serious issues at stake, and black folk got to get out there and vote. I don't disagree with anything that you said, but I think that we don't take the time sometimes

to take a step back and see why people do gravitate towards somebody like Trump. Because I keep telling folks over and over, take a step back and see why people do gravitate towards, you know, somebody like Trump. Cause I keep telling folks over and over, you know, people will forget what you did. They'll forget what you said, but they won't forget how you made them feel. In 2020 people felt they got the stimulus checks. They got the PPP loans. So they felt like it was more money in their pocket. Now what I tell folks is let's think about how we got there.

We got there because of Donald Trump's mishandling of COVID. So do you want to see millions of people die in order for you to get that check in your pocket? Right. And I think the other problem is the Democrats just do a terrible job messaging. And I think sometimes we help them with terrible messaging because we spend so much time talking about how bad Donald Trump is, knowing you ain't going to change none of those people of mine who's supporting Trump. but you don't talk about the good that the Biden-Harris administration is doing enough. Amen. I mean, absolutely right. And they could do a better

job of evangelizing their own evolution, their own viewpoints, and what they've done for black people and others. But you're damned if you do, and you're damned if you don't. Look, on your show, Joe Biden made a joke. He was like, if you don't vote for me, you ain't black. Oh, my God. I don't know. That was a joke.

Well, here's my point. We say we want a white person who understands us and can vibe with us. Right. Bill Clinton playing the saxophone. But more importantly, understanding the limits, the interests, the ideals of black America. That was an inside joke. Joe Biden saying, if you don't vote for me, that's a bit of swag, if you will, by saying by promoting the fact that he understood the inside language and discourse of black America. That was not laying claim to the fact that, of course, if you are authentically black, then I am the only choice for you. That was a bit of swag. And then we tripping. We don't want it.

He basically said if you vote for Trump, you vote against your own interests. I mean, he ain't lying. I don't detect no lies. So I'm saying if he's got that, we don't mind it if, you know, some rapper who's white doing it, you know, if it's Eminem and, you know, Dr. Drake and Salem said he's the coldest brother on the microphone and what he does and blah, blah, blah. So we don't mind that kind of swag. But if a guy who understands us who's had look, look, complicated histories, you know, people are constantly pointing.

Well, look at Joe Biden in the 1990s, bro. What have you done for me lately? People evolve and grow. They change. Now, Joe Biden is still saying the stuff he said back then about, you know, not wanting his kids to be involved in a racial jungle or, you know, against busing. Find me a white person that really wasn't against busing at that particular point, even enlightened white liberals. Now, my point is not to say that he is perfect. He's not. The point is, though, what has he become? What has he evolved to? Rakim said it's not where you're from's where you're at. What is he doing now? What is his interest in our progress? And what do we get from supporting that particular figure? Donald Trump, again, your point is right. Let's figure out why people are attracted to him.

It ain't great. I mean, we could be attracted to him because rappers who put Donald Trump on understood that Donald Trump was like them. Swag, a lot of bravado, but we see he ain't got the, he lying like most rappers, you know, about what they got when Jay-Z said, well, yeah, homeboy, playboy, where's those, those diamonds? That's not what you said. Where's the Hummer?

That's not what you said you had. So we know a lot of rappers lie. That's what they do. So Donald Trump was attractive because he was a liar. He was, he was full of mendacity. Here's a guy we talk about Joe Biden back in the day. You and your daddy are racist in terms of the what buildings you own and not wanting black people to be there. So if we're going to do it, let's go tit for tat. But my point is that, yes, at this point, don't we understand enough of why black people might be attracted to him some black men let's go there some black men because of the swag of patriarchy a man in charge he's talking about grabbing stuff

this is vicious uh repudiation of an enlightened sense of masculinity you ain't got to do that in order to be a man so everything that donald trump represents that is attractive to us ain't great so let's let's get a do away with the kind of patriarchy, the misogyny, the sexism that roils so much of our community in ways that are destructive, whether we see it in church or the temple or the synagogue and so on, or whether we see it in schools. So the point is, yes, let's examine why black people may be attracted or others. And we ain't going to change no minds, but we can change enough minds within our own community to say, don't vote against your own best interests.

And in that case, I think there's little choice about who we should vote for on that day. What would you say to black conservatives who say our best interests are conservative? That's why so few of them, their numbers speak for themselves. Right. Black conservatives are quite interesting. You know, you had a wonderful interview here with Candace Owens. You know, what's interesting to me, Candace Owens ain't apologized for what she said about George Floyd. She made an entire documentary besmirching this man's attitude posthumously. No apology for that. If that's how she feels, why should she apologize?

Well, first of all, because she should apologize because she's wrong, number one. Number two, she can feel that way, and that's your point about feeling. Let me connect these two black people, what we feel as opposed to what we do. Sometimes you don't feel like loving your partner. You don't feel like loving your wife or your husband or the person you're with, but you do it out of what, a sense of duty and obligation. Those are not bad words. So just because she felt that way, the facts show that's not true.

The stuff she tried to make up has been empirically disproved at the at the same time. Here's a man lying on the ground begging for his life that millions of black people can identify with. And she's trying to turn it into some conspiracy of black refusal to be responsible. You know, her and Jason Whitlock, these are people who are destructive for our community. And Candace Owens gets a break because white folk got rid of her. The right wing got tired of her on the issue of Israel versus Palestine when she had a fleeting moment of revelation. And now she's accepted and embraced. If that's what black conservatism is, her or Jason Whitlock or Clarence Thomas, who has been a, I don't think black people, certain black people,

wouldn't realize she already had a large audience of black people. She had a movement called Blexit. And that was six, seven years ago. She was trying to get people, black people in particular, to get off the Democratic plantation and seek other things, whether it was being a conservative, being an independent, whatever it is. So I think now when people say this thing about, oh, it's black people embracing her, it's like, nah, she already had an audience of black people. When we say black people, we're talking about new black people who weren't embracing her before. The black people who weren't. Look, of course, they are conservative black people in this country.

The average black person without respect to politics is culturally and religiously and morally conservative. They believe in Ten Commandments. Yeah, they might want to support a woman's right to have abortion, bodily autonomy. But for real, for real, when they go to church, they're concerned about the fact that you might be aborting a baby. Right. So you can have a particular religious viewpoint about an issue and have a political and understand the political consequence of that viewpoint. That's why black people have been radically dissimilar to white evangelicals and the politicization of white evangelicals who have used their religion to try to make this a Christian nation. Martin Luther King Jr. used his Christianity to make this a just nation. And that's a big difference. When I see people praying in certain legislatures and praising the God, I'm an atheist

to that. God said, I'm tired of your incense. I'm tired of the BS. So I'm saying if God is an atheist to that, I ain't going to believe in it either. So back to the point of Candace Owens. Yeah, there are some black people who follow her. Look, the great, beloved Maya Angelou, a dear friend of mine whom I loved, who I think was right 99.9% of the time, I think she was wrong about supporting Clarence Thomas. Give him a chance. Let's see what he'll do when he gets in there and then he got in there and he's wrecked shop every since so there are always going to be black people who are going to give ear to certain conservative values viewpoints and visions the point is what are the political consequences of what she's

arguing and i'm saying at the end of the day most the masses of black people are not co-signing the kinds of viewpoints that black conservatives are putting forward. And Candace Owens in particular may have. Look, she's bright. She's intelligent. She's articulate. She can be funny. She has a decided viewpoint. And I think she should be able to say that. And we should be able to say what you are doing is counterproductive to the interests of African-American people. The masses of black people can't cosign that because of the masses of black people don't see reflected in your vision of standing with Kanye West and saying white lives matter. I'm saying at what point. But then those same black people stand with Kanye West, though.

They do. But not a bunch of them, not a whole bunch of them. Not what I'm saying. The masses of black people love Kanye for what he did, his music, what he represented. There's no question about that. The first five, six albums. Incredible. And some of the music since then is incredible. We also have an understanding about him because of mental illness. And we know that mental health and mental illness are things he struggled with in public. So, yes, we're going to grant him some kind of recognition. And we're going to we're going to stand up for what he did when he stood up for us, when he said George Bush doesn't care for black people. So there were moments in

Kanye's evolution where he made significant political interventions in the name of a kind of understanding of that blackness viscerally. He didn't have a sophisticated political expression, but he said stuff that we could vibe with. So yeah.

He also hugged Trump in the White House. He also hugged Trump in the White House and said, you remind me of Superman. I mean, come on, bro. I mean, at that level, are we going to ascribe that to an issue of mental health? Are we going to say that's your choice and what you did? Sammy Davis Jr. went to the White House with Richard Nixon, right? But it was a different consequence. He was raising money for black people and standing behind us and by us. So I think that, look, Candace Owens and Kanye West, bless them. They can do what they want. They can believe what they want. But we have a right and an obligation to say, but that is not productive for us.

And just because you make a dough from that or some black people follow you, the masses of black people are not following you because the masses of black people don't discern in your belief system a structure of reliable confidence invested in this political order for you to represent us you ain't representing what we believe when you believe in things you don't understand then you suffer superstition ain't the way the great stevie wonder said and some of that conservative stuff is kind of political superstition it's not premised upon empirical facts it's not based upon what we know to be the case. It's an idealized expression of where we are. So when the conservatives latch on to you, it shouldn't be the color of your skin. It should be the content of your character. That was a dream that a man articulated.

That was not a reality. So again, for Candace Owens to get a pass, and this is what I mean by pass, not that there weren't already black people following her, but for our sympathies of those who didn't necessarily sign on to what she believed to now be sympathetic to her because she's gotten mistreated by white folk. That's what we've

been telling you. I don't know if anybody's being sympathetic there at all. You don't think anybody's being sympathetic to Candace Owens? No. Oh yeah, there are a lot of people sympathetic to Candace Owens. As a black woman, stand up for her. The same way I was talking about Maya Angelou with Clarence Thomas. He's a black man don't jump on him let's be concerned uh you know it could be it could be because they agree on the gaza issue that's probably i can see that yeah yeah okay okay all right so my point is again uh for black conservatives who articulate

their ideas and beliefs that's fine but most of them don't have rooting in fact, don't have rooting in a political order that has respected the integrity of our being, that has respected us, that has appreciated us. Some of the same white conservatives that they joined with now celebrating Martin Luther King Jr. couldn't stand him when he was alive, called him Martin Luther King Jr., saw him as the worst scourge on American democracy, a blemish to the record of the American Constitution, a declaration of independence. Now they embrace them. Why? Because they think they can use them. These are the same people who stand against the very politics that we are invested in. And when black folk do it, there's an especial assault and insult to us because y'all been there long enough.

Clarence Thomas is a dark skinned black man. I'm sure some of his animus toward black people has to do with being mistreated by black people because he was such a dark-skinned black man. My daddy was from Albany, Georgia, a blue black man. So as a light-skinned Negro, I saw that growing up and I saw how people treated him and mistreated him. Me being a curly haired, used to wear glasses till I got my eyes fixed the other day on the cataract so I can see you now huh no no no I get well it's like laces but I had cataracts so they removed the cataracts it was laser surgery man so now I can see ain't got no glasses I can see I have similar I mean the two are not contradictory I happen to be allergic

however let me be honest I can't smoke weed. And I found out by. Well, anyway, so the point is, the point is ultimately at the end of the day, then when we think about who we are as a people and what kind of ideas we put forth and who we are, I'm just saying the black conservatives have not stood up for us. So Clarence Thomas probably has animus toward people because they mistreated him as a dark skinned black man. But what he's done since has more than paid us back. The furious indifference to the being of black people, deciding what folk, even when conservative

white folks are, are you going too far? Clarence Thomas said you ain't gone far enough. We have authenticated these people to a certain degree by not speaking out vociferously against them and i'm saying again with candace owens she might feel that george floyd uh represented a certain threat but when it comes down to facts versus fiction it ain't even true and we got to hold people accountable for that i guess for me i feel like somebody like clarence thomas yeah i can understand holding him accountable somebody like candace ow, and it could just be me. It's just like she's not an elected official. She's a person with a platform on YouTube, with a podcast.

How much are we supposed to argue about something like that, especially when we already know the truth? The truth is right there in your face. The cops who killed George Floyd, they're in prison. We saw George Floyd get killed. The coroner said he got choked out, and that was his cause of death. Why sit around and argue with somebody well because the thing is that her viewpoints until her

I guess she had a Blexit from Ben Shapiro so maybe she had a Benzix the point is that that influences white other white people other white conservatives viewpoints ideas that filter into legislatures where in Tennessee where I live they kick out the two young Justins and a white woman where it makes a difference in terms of shutting up discourse and dialogue about beliefs that they don't cherish, about closing down conversations about who owns guns and the not. that platform has far reaching consequence in ways that we can determine.

In some ways, we may not be immediately able to determine, but that have an effect on white folk who think about these issues of race and who feel justified because they can point to a black face to say, oh, my God, this is what Jason Whitlock believes. This is what Candace Owens believes. This is what Glenn Lowry believes. This is what Candace Owens believes. This is what Glenn Lowry believes. So the justification for certain self-hating moments of African-American politics, ideology and interests is enough to say to us, we got to speak up and out against this because there's a relationship between that kind of stuff and the belief that Trump represents a certain kind of virtue and value. If you hear enough black people or enough times of a conservative, articulate black person suggesting that this is not a problem, it does have consequence.

And those little enter, you know, those are where the little space is not that the most black people who think, oh, that's bullshit. We know that it's enough black people who may not understand what the what the differences are ideologically and politically between what they articulate and what the interests of african-american people are to make a difference i think a lot of people are i agree with a lot of what you said but i think a lot of people are tired of i call it the daddy's law in my house right the daddy's law in my house is i said it and you do what i say don't ask me no questions i feel like that's a lot with democrats right we see things sometimes when we ask a question and be like, oh, you're going against us. I'm not going against you.

I'm asking the question, right? We talk about Biden, right? When you talk about Biden and people thought he had amnesia, just watching the things that he do. And then when you ask about it, it's like, oh, you're going against him. You're giving the Republicans ammunition. No, I'm just asking because I might not want that Democrat as my president. Any critique. Any critique of Democrats. Any critique. I might not want that Democrat as my president. Any critique. Any critique of Democrats.

Any critique. I might not want that. When you're black, it automatically makes you the worst person ever. Migrants, where the money goes, with this, that, and the other. If I ask a question or question anybody, like anybody, like I can question you, you can question me. Doesn't necessarily mean we enemies. Doesn't mean I'm going against you, but we just having a real conversation. And I think that's what bothers a lot of black Americans when it comes to Democrats.

I get that. I mean, but if you think that's a problem with Democrats, what in the hell do you think that's in regard to Republicans who, at least with Democrats, you have an argument to be made? And by the way, I agree with all that in the sense that we should be able to criticize. I wrote an entire book as this generation is a whole book on Barack Obama. And I hated you for that, bro. So you're talking to you to have a smile. Right. Even though I just I distinguish myself from them in terms of how far at least Wes was able to go.

I think Tavis had a bit more decor. Decorum, I'm sorry. But the point is this, is that, yes, you know, I was out there taking strays because I believed a certain thing and I wanted to hold people accountable. Still love them. See, I believe in the six-inning theory of baseball. As you know, this is baseball season. In the six-inning, if it starts raining, whoever's ahead is going to win.

Right? If you go six innings, whoever's ahead is going to win. So I think we've got to go six innings. That means we've got to stay on the same team, have the message of productive engagement politically for our people, what helps us, what hurts us, identifying enemies, friends, and opponents. And then after six innings, you've got some stuff to spread around.

So when you make a critical comment like that, don't be naive. I'm just being objective and neutral. I'm just raising a question. You ain't just being objective and neutral. Even if you intend to be, the consequence of your talk is not. Your intent may be to be neutral. The consequence is it reinforces a certain narrative or belief. That doesn't mean you can't be critical because I was critical, but I put it in context.

I specified how much love I had for Obama. I specified what I thought he was doing right. I talked about the interest he held. I talked about how white supremacy ganged up on him. But I also said he had three bites at the apple. he ain't chose no black woman to be on the supreme court he had many opportunities where he spoke up and out against black people i think that his comments about um and and especially his spouse in regard to jeremiah wright were wholly uh gratuitous and destructive uh after the fact so i got criticisms but I got to understand the degree to which they play into a narrative that either supports my beliefs or undercuts them. So there's no kind of objective.

This Archimedean point of objectivity. I stand outside the flow of human history. No, bro, you down here with Wes Montgomery on the ground. Y'all probably too young to remember Wes Montgomery, the great jazz guitarist, down here on the ground. We're down here on the ground is probably too young. Remember West Montgomery, the great jazz guitarist down here on the ground. We're down here on the ground. So it's not that we can't be critical. But I'm saying what's what's your critique of a political order where Republicans don't even give a damn about who you are? At least with Democrats, you can push them, at least with Democrats. Wait a minute. You said you claim you were part of and then you fill in the blanks.

So what are you doing? You're failing us. that kind of critique is is quite necessary and powerful and when we do it however is extremely powerful as well and we have to be strategic about it that's all i'm saying all right time to do it though oh it's all the right time after the election is a damn good time see that's what i'm saying no no but here's my point it's four years in between where is the critique it's been happening with Biden. I mean, look, look, there's no question Biden can say, hey, calm down with some of that because you've been consistent in the critique. But I'm saying we got to be strategic about what we're saying and when we're saying it. I'm not saying surrender your capacity as a free thinking person.

But what kills me, what cracks me up when when I hear Candace Owens and Kanye and him talking about getting off the Democratic plantation, what damn plantation do you think you're on when you are with Ben Shapiro, when you are with Donald Trump? You own the biggest plantation at all, the mental one, the one that is exercised in your mind, and the ventriloquism of white supremacy,

black-mouthed, moving white ideas flowing out of you. So please tell me when you disparage and legitimately criticize so-called plantations politics of the Democrats. What damn plantation are you speaking for? What master's voice are you amplifying when you say that? I agree with you wholeheartedly. And I also say I feel like black people in particular, we shouldn't be beholden to any party. I don't think these fanatics over democrats are insane to me these fanatics over conservatives are insane to me we should always be looking at who and what serves our best interests i don't even think we

should be talking about voting for individuals let's talk about the ideas and the ideas that that individual is putting on the table i think that'll get you farther but let me in conversation with you let me ask you this here's the point. Are black people stupid? I don't think so. Are they dumb? I don't think so. So why is it that black people are voting for the Democrats? Isn't that because they're on a damn plantation? Because at least the Democrats serve our best interests.

So, you know, the old saying, no permanent party, just permanent interests. I get that. But our interests have been tied up with people who at least are willing to listen to us. Tell me what interests of African-American people, except a few black rappers that Donald Trump got out of jail.

What black person can point to him and say, these, this man articulates the interests of my community, uh, embraces us as a people understands our plight and predicament. He's talking about shit hole countries, many of whom, but many of which many of which are countries of color, black people in them.

This is a dude consistently talking about hurting and harming black people, using the police power of the state to circumscribe us and to undermine us. So I'm saying, even by your litmus test, the Republicans ain't got nothing for us. This ain't old school Republicans. Back when Nelson Rockefeller was a Republican, my God, or William Cohen was a Republican, a liberal Republican, that's unheard of at this point. So there are some people who are certainly in the history books who are Republicans who are down with us.

That's why black people were Republican. When I hear Republicans, we are the party of Lincoln. Bro, that was a long time ago that was a long long time ago when the republican party was concerned about our interests and the democratic party represented as part of the dixiecrats and others who were a southern base against the best interests of black people i'm saying even by your litmus test why are we when talking about what republicans done because they don't give a damn and let me just say this when you look at the fact that in these state legislatures, 38 out of 50 of them are run by Republicans and they don't give a good gosh darn about black people.

They are voting against us. They are creating rules and restrictions against us. The voting has been made far more difficult. Even conservative courts say you are going too far. You've redrawn the maps. They don't respect the integrity of black voting. The Voting Rights Act, which has been gutted but still powerful enough to provide an umbrella for us, is being assaulted and attacked every day. Why would we even vote for anybody who's part of that party? Everything you're saying is absolutely correct.

But what I want us to start doing is just look at the things that these people are doing that is getting people's attention. You dismissed something, right? You said that he let out three black rappers. It's not even about the black rappers. It's about the first step back. Whenever somebody can just point to something and say, that is a tangible thing that person did

that I actually saw for myself that helped somebody in my community, they'll gravitate towards that. Okay, I actually saw for myself that helped somebody in my community, they'll gravitate towards that. Okay, I get that, but Eric Holder reduced the disparity between powder cocaine and crack cocaine, which you know disproportionately assaulted us.

Absolutely. They didn't market it well, though. Okay, well, do you want the commercial or the product? The commercial. It's a campaign. I understand that, but the commercial or the product? The commercial. It's a campaign. I understand that, but I'm saying the product is more precious than the commercial, although we do need the commercial, the campaign to articulate what is done. If I went further than Biden right now, everybody that I gave student loan debt relief to, I'd have commercials running all over.

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So y'all, this is Questlove, and I'm here to tell you about a new podcast I've been working on with the Story Pirates and John Glickman called Historical Records. It's a family-friendly podcast. Yeah, you heard that right. A podcast for all ages. One you can listen to and enjoy with your kids starting on September 27th. I'm going to toss it over to the host of Historical Records, Nimany, to tell you all about it. Make sure you check it out. Hey, y'all. Nimminy here.

I'm the host of a brand new history podcast for kids and families called Historical Records. Historical Records brings history to life through hip-hop. Flash, slam, another one gone. Bash, bam, another one gone. The crack of the bat and another one gone. The tip of the cap is another one gone. Bash, bam, another one gone. The crack of the bat and another one gone. The tip of the cap is another one gone. Each episode is about a different inspiring figure from history.

Like this one about Claudette Colvin, a 15-year-old girl in Alabama who refused to give up her seat on the city bus nine whole months before Rosa Parks did the same thing. Check it. And it began with me. Did you know, did you know? I wouldn't give up my seat. months before Rosa Parks did the same thing. Check it. Get the kids in your life excited about history by tuning in to Historical Records. Because in order to make history, you have to make some noise. Listen to Historical Records on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

With these people, these brothers and sisters saying, hey, I got $300,000 taken off my student loan debt. Now I'm able to open a business. I would just have them constantly, constantly running that. I'm not against none of that. As they say, I'm not against any of that. But at the same time, we are sophisticated enough as a people to understand who in our corner, who ain't and who can talk about it and who can't. Some things Joe Biden, like, say, for instance, some people I heard some critiques in the State of the Union. He didn't mention about DEI.

That's because he understands that is such a flashpoint right now on the political trajectory that for him to endorse that only creates opportunities for people to assault it not that we don't want it not that we don't need it not that we're not practicing it we just look i just saw uh recently where it was finally put into order that the small business administration can't even have loans for african-american people got to open it up for white folk and others. I'm saying this is the terrain on which we exist. Let's not pretend we don't know. We got to wink and nod. Yeah, yeah, I got

you. You ain't got to say everything you know. And you ain't got to say everything you're doing. You've got to do it. That's what I meant by the commercial versus the product. Let's get the praxis, the practice, the political order together, and then we can talk about what we're saying and what we're not saying. And look, I am for critique.

I'm for pushing them. I'm for demanding that we do the right thing, but I'm also for understanding we in what, April, May, June, July, August, September, October, November. That ain't a whole bunch of time. So I'm saying there are some times when we come together to forge a kind of unity or at least provisional solidarity where we operate in our best interest, knowing that we got to do the right thing. If Angela Davis, one of the most radical and progressive voices in the history of America, especially black America, and Noam Chomsky, one of the most progressive voices

on the left ever, can both argue about supporting Joe Biden. It at least should give us pause to all of these mercenary interventions by narcissistic political figures who want to have their day in the sunlight as opposed to the best interests of black people in this country. I think Donald Trump is a fascist. i think he's a threat to democracy i don't think that you know anybody who calls himself a patriot should want somebody in the white house right who wanted to suspend the constitution to overthrow the results of absolutely that yes but with all of that on the table what do you say to people who say so what well i mean i'm just saying i'm just like what do you say i hate to sound like the patriots on the right wing, but go on somewhere where you think that's the case, bro, where you think it doesn't make a difference, where you can experience fascism up close, where the rule of law operates against you. Oh, this country has no no crime. That's because they don't cut your arm off, bro.

If they catch you in the wrong place and given our breaking and entering inclinations, that would be very harsh. Now, that's that's how you talk to people who are already in hell. Because that's what I say. So what? I mean, like there's people already living in hell in this country. So when you tell them that, you know, he's a threat to democracy, they're like democracy never worked for us. No way. Yeah. But that's democracy. People in hell think will get worse. Well, first of all, if they inhale, you've got to look at the conversation between divies and lazarus divies uh was a rich man inhaled and lazarus ends up going to heaven so i'm not saying there's a great reversal but you tell people who are in hell do you want to get it hotter i mean

there are degrees right the sixth circle of hell if you read dante so the point is that you tell people yeah you inhale but if you think you lonely now, wait until tonight, you have a Bobby Womack theology. You got to have a Bobby Womack theology. If you think is bad now, wait until tonight, girl. So black people got to understand that there are degrees to this. Right. And when we look at the degrees to this, yes, it is tough. Child poverty is still real. The attack on black on black women's bodies is still real. The dismissal of African-American interests is still real. But it is if it's bad now. What in the hell do you think is going to be when a fascist takes over?

When a guy who doesn't even who's not even interested in your particular viewpoint or your suffering takes over. Yes, he can go to a darn Chick-fil-A right now and tell you that Joe Biden is the worst president in history. That's another lie he's telling. So if we if we don't think that it makes a difference and look, it's hard for people who are suffering to hear that. But our people have always suffered. They've always been in hell.

But they've always understood that if we use a certain kind of a particular perspective to get a certain way, if we use a certain instrument to realize our ultimate ambitions, as Howard Thurman, the great mystic said, refuse the temptation to scale down your dreams to what you're experiencing right now. Now, and enough black people, and it wasn't rich black people who believe that it wasn't it wasn't people who were wealthy who believe that these are everyday people on the plantation. These are everyday folk in the hood. These are everyday people who are sharecropping. They understood that hope had a message and the message was beyond what we can see in here right now, there is something real.

That's why all these preachers spend Sunday mornings talking about God. You step out on nothing and something is there. It's not just magical Kumbaya. It's not abracadabra. This is about the heart of hope that animates most black activity in this country. Afro-pessimism is real. I respect Frank Wilderson. I respect the theorists of Afro-pessimism because they tell us the stark truth that we need to grapple with. But there has been a tradition of hope within black people that makes no sense. That is not even justified. That is absurd. And Afro absurdism is a key to our survival.

So Howard Thurman said the wrong rows of cotton, the rawhide whip of the overseer, but our slave foreparents. Imagine a different future. And this is what I want to say. When black people, this is the words, oh, my God, is her. Your mamas and daddies, your great grandmamas and great granddaddies suffered far more than what we're suffering now. And if they had the possibility of nurturing hope in their breasts, we have the obligation to do the same.

If you can't do it for yourself, do it for your kids. If you can't do it for your kids, remember grandma in them and how you are the manifestation of do the same. If you can't do it for yourself, do it for your kids. If you can't do it for your kids, remember grandma in them and how you are the manifestation of their very hope. And to get caught in that hellish situation, you think you in hell? Imagine going out and working for 17 hours a day. You think you in hell? Imagine having no rights and or ability to assert what your beliefs are. You think you in hell? What about when you had no choice but to do what a slave master told you when you were raped at will without moral compunction or legal redress?

That was hell. And in the midst of that hell, those black people held up and held out hope as our condition. If they could do it, I ain't trying to hear nothing from people right now. What do you think is fair or unfair in regards to critique of personality? do you think is fair or unfair in regards to critique

of personality like what is considered fair or unfair because i'm a person that believes you just can't say what you want to say and expect everybody to agree some people are going to like it some people are not going to like it and with social media mad people have an opinion about it c'est la vie i mean and i look critique is one thing that that means I'm engaging you. I'm talking to you. But, you know, and I'm looking at what you said. I read what you said. I put it in context and then I have a response. But that's different than you just assaulting me. That's just different than you saying stuff that ain't even true. Making it up. And now we got deep fakes. We're worried about AI.

The only AI I dig is Allen Iverson. Other than that, bro, it's rough. So the thing is this. We got deep fakes. We got lies. We got mendacities. Look at the convergence of the technology and the techniques of fascism. The technology facilitates and is complicit with the spread of a certain kind of fascist reality because now we're not sure what's real, what's not. And black people should be the last people taking allegations as convictions.

Lord have mercy. I mean, how can you just say something and then convict somebody? Black people of all people. I heard Dominique Marceau, the great playwright, say as bad and as jacked up as the criminal justice system is, I'll take that any day, over somebody just saying something about you. And then that's taken as law. And that's across the board. That's whether with BLM, me too, whatever. The point is, an allegation alone cannot substantiate or produce evidence to make a claim worthwhile. But we see this on social media. And let me tell you what I get. Look, people jump on me sometimes. Look, I try to be nice to them. They say nasty stuff and I'm nice and they're embarrassed. Some of them have no shame. I don't wrote 25 books. You wrote 25 words, dog. And

we're not the same. Right. And that's not arrogant. That's I did the work. I actually studied. I thought about it. I reflected on it. That don't mean I'm right because people who have thought about it and studied on it are disagreeing with me. So disagreement is not the index of one lacking intelligence and one possessing it. It means that we have the considered reflection on a particular issue and the internet don't even create the need for that, the desire for that. We think we can go on and read something. That's the beauty. The beauty of digital media is that you can have books or library books in your phone and you can read 25 books. I used to have to carry them on the plane. Now you can put them in your Kindle and read them. That's beautiful.

The problem is when we had kind of the visceral interaction with the papyrus, the text, we had to read it. We went to the library because that's where the lies are buried. We went there to dig them up. And we look at the card catalog. That ain't the kind of catalog you got when you got five honey's numbers that night. Them ain't them cards we're talking about. We're talking about 187.9. That wasn't a local radio station. That was where social science was.

My point is there was something about earning that knowledge and digging for that knowledge and feeling that you couldn't just take it for granted. And we have tremendous access now. We have the possibility to know more than we've ever known before, and we know less than we've ever known because we don't have the same kind of curiosity because we think now because we can say something to somebody I like Charlemagne the God, I can jack him up because I have access to him now. Before you had to go to his office, write him a letter. He might not. He might not have written you back. Dear Dr. King, I disagree with the integration, blah, blah, blah. You don't have that kind of access.

You didn't have that kind of access then that you have now, so it's a marvel. But the problem is, everybody got an opinion. Everybody thinks it's equally valuable, and because you can insult somebody. Do you think with the rhetorical capacity I possess, I couldn't eviscerate you?

You don't think I could do that, too? You think that you're the only one who possesses the ability to call an MF an MF? Mofo, I grew up in the hizud. Rizak nizab, rizavah. I could get at you. I can cuss you out more than you think I can. But the point is, I have restraints because I understand my power. Like a like a like an old gunslinger. When you come to town, put your register, your guns. I got a bazooka on my hip. I could eviscerate you. The point is, can we have common sense and civility? I know a lot of people have said civility is a problematic because sometimes you've got to be disruptive.

I get that. But I'm saying for the most part, when you shutting people down, you don't want them. That's your yes or go. Shut up. You know, and you're talking. Shut up. What about when they shut you up? What about when you can't talk? That can't help us. It's like an eye for an eye. As Dr. King said, everybody be blind. So the point is, if we all shutting each other out, we all hollering each other, we're all protesting each other. Can we ever speak? So I'm for speaking and listening. I'm not for cancel culture. I'm for engaging people. I'm for talking to other people. And I'm for saying, yes, let's talk. And we can be critical. Confrontation over conversation. I'm for talking to other people. And I'm for saying, yes, let's talk. And we can be critical.

Conversation over confrontation. How about that? Criticism is not jumping on you, being nasty about you, saying, you know what, Dyson, I noticed you said X, Y, and Z, but you didn't say this. Holding me to account. We should be able to do that. And I think that's why I mentioned about Amanda Sills. Or, I know you and I had a conversation about

the young Jonathan Owens. And I posted yesterday, you know, right, right. Simone Biles, husband. And people kept saying, you ain't listen to the whole conversation. I listen to the whole conversation. In fact, it's worse than that, because at one point he goes, look, she's the one who kind of, you know, match with me. And so he said she keeps saying she matched, but it was really her. I'm saying, bro, I'm not trying to dog Jonathan Owens because that's – look, I've been married three times, clearly, to black women. So clearly I see on the internet people saying he got a white wife. I ain't mad if I had a white wife.

I'd walk in the room with a white wife. I ain't had no white wife. I wrote a book called Why I Love Black Women. That's right. So I done married three of them. My point is, so I got – look, the vast reservoir of failure I can share with you. I can talk to you about it. I'm saying, let's just put the young man on game. When you got a woman like that,

this is the point you made, again, about intent versus consequence. Your intent could have been funny. Your intent could have been, yeah, girl, you were chasing me. Look at the consequence in a world where black women are bitches and hoes and skeezers and sluts and dismissed and not recognized and not valued. So when you say that the reason i

juxtapose trevor kelsey who's far more famous than you young man who says i'm just lucky that i even got a chance to holler because she's known about sports and everything like that talking about taylor swift i'm saying the contradistinction is not to demoralize this young man is to put you on game game grown-ass man energy in like grown-ass man enlightenment i'm 65 years old i'm officially grown and i'm saying to you bro lift your woman up strategically if not even substantively understand that she is valuable to you if this woman is one of the most famous gymnasts and arguably the greatest gymnast in the history of gymnastic exploitation and performance. Ain't nobody doubting that. Then at least at this point,

don't look like you're trying to besmirch her. And again, it was a joke. I get people who defend that. I understand that at the end of the day, they'll uplift that woman, elevate that woman, happy wife, happy life. And I'm sure he's having a beautiful time. He's doing beautiful things. I wasn't trying to jam him up. I'm trying to say to young people, however, in a culture where women have been demonized and stigmatized and continue to be, we got rappers talking about, I only want to deal with a light-skinned woman. I only, you know, Kodak black or, you know,

I don't want to deal with this woman and so on and so forth and hurting her and looking at Megan Thee Stallion inside with a guy who shot her in the foot. I'm just saying this is the world in which black women live. And if we can't acknowledge that and put on top of that the ability to get an abortion, you know who that affects more than anybody? Us. So I'm just asking for a little consideration and a little knowledge dropping from an older man. That's all I'm doing.

I sent you another article. He is always gushing over her and he is always pointing to her. But also, too, what if he was just telling his story? What if she did try to holler at him? That's how they got together. But she argued with him on the thing. She said, that ain't what happened. She said, you had already liked me.

And because you liked me, then I therefore reached out. And look, that's their business. I don't want to get into micromanaging them. I just wonder why we ain't joking, though. I thought they were joking, too, but I just wonder why we ain't. No, he wasn't joking at that point when he said, no, you keep saying that. And even if he was, look, my point is this. I'm not even trying to get into anything.

I'm trying to talk about the consequence of what that might mean. The broader issue in terms of elevating black women, black women get enough of you ain't enough. Black women get enough of I don't care how much you got. You ain't whatever. And when and when he says, I always think the man is the catch, bro. Now, that's classic definition of patriarchy, bro. I don't know what world you don't think when I always say the man is the catch. Deconstruct that for me. What does that mean? Oh, so you're dealing with Simone Biles, the most noteworthy gymnast in the history of America.

But you still to catch now. People say, well, he should have that kind of confidence. I ain't mad at your confidence. I'm saying what is it about us as men that we can't acknowledge our women? We go to church. They already defer to us. Ain't but five men in church, but they the deacon and the pastor and the cleaner and everything and the trustee. Because women understand the fragile psychology of black men who have been emasculated in a white supremacist culture where another patriarch is a threat to another patriarch they done already done that work when i go out here and i'm sure you too both of y'all when you

go out here and see uh black men's concerns being talked about susan taylor is at the front of the line right uh black women are always speaking up for black men. I'm saying, can we return the favor? And what I mean by the broader society, in a world where black women have been demonized, even the greatest of them have to be told that, no, the man you got is the catch because you're living in a world where black women may not have access to the greatest amount of black men

because of prison and choices and so on and so forth. I'm just saying, bro, at the end of the day, a little love, try a little tenderness. Yeah, I and so forth. I'm just saying, bro, at the end of the day, a little love. Try a little tenderness. Yeah, I think that's all I'm saying. This is another example to me is like the relationship thing. Keep that away from the strangers on social media. Let that be an inside conversation y'all laugh and joke about amongst each other at dinner.

As soon as you bring it to social media, stuff like this happens. But I think it's helpful. They might not care. It might be their relationship, their jokes, their problems, their situation. I think it's hard not to care when everybody stuff like this happens. But I think it's helpful. They might not care. It might be their relationship, their jokes, their problems, their situation. I think it's hard not to care when everybody's talking about you. Jokes grow out of social situations. Jokes grow out of social

values. That's what they are. Right? Of course. They reflect certain beliefs. If I shine a light on my relationship with my wife, people might think it's disrespectful, but it's me and my wife. We joke all the time. You're a great example. NB, they put their book out. Envy said in his book that he hadn't made his wife orgasm in a decade.

Right. Yeah. But that's on him. He should have kept that to himself. No, no. Wait a minute. But that's on him. Wait a minute.

Envy is saying, I didn't step up. Wait a minute. Envy is a hero because most men go, damn, okay. I hear you. Because I couldn't do it for three years. I couldn't do it for seven years. He's saying, I'm the one. That's a different.

But he still made something public that he didn't have to make public. But the reason I made it public is because the stories and conversations that I have with people when I do my podcast and just see. I can tell you don't read. It wasn't the fact that I didn't make a come. It's the fact that I couldn't make a come sexually orally. I was good money. Right. The problem was and what I was trying to explain.

He can run his mouth. He can run his mouth. He can run his mouth. Me and my wife have been together since she was 16. And what I was saying is most men need to have conversations, especially with their son, because when I looked at sex, I watched porn. So I used to go in here like bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang. Right. It wasn't romantic.

It wasn't physical. I was trying to be a porn star and it wasn't connecting. But once we figured that out, our relationship became better. But you still get clowned for that to this day is what I'm saying. But wait a minute. But see, the difference is his was a moment of vulnerability. Correct. My man's moment was a moment of machismo. Let's just be real. I mean, you can joke, but the joke is reflective of a temperament, an ideal, a politic, an ideology. And I'm saying, again, that's their business. You're right, because I won't put my business out there because there's plenty of failures and flaws for people to pick apart.

My point is, when I say game, though, brah, even if you believe that respect your woman, elevate your woman, understand that in a culture where she's already been demonized as a dark skinned black woman, that could be deeply and profoundly problematic as well. And it wasn't 10 years. I just want to tell you that wasn't 10 years. You said 10 years. It never said 10 years. You said it. You thought it was 10 years, man. You started it. How you doing, Mr. Michael Eric Dyson? Ms. Jess Hilarious, how you doing? I'm good. I heard all the bang, bang, bang, bang, bang.

What's going on? What's going on? Let's talk about Beyonce, man, and what she did with Cowboy Carter. Right. What is the significance? Before you jump in, did you come in because you heard something that you wanted to say? No.

I was like, what's going on? And at first, I heard Candace Owens, Trump, Angela Davis. You were talking about your father. And then it was like a lot going on. Then I heard bang, bang, bang, poing. I'm like, what's going on? What's up? Mr. Marcus is in the house.

I'm sorry. Lex's going on? Mr. Marcus is in the house. I'm sorry, Lexington Steel. But look, what's the significance of what she has just done with this Cowboy Carter album? It's incredible. First of all, she's reunited a constituency of country music that has been alienated, like rock music. Black people, right? Not only the banjo in the Caribbean and in North America, hearkening back with an ear to Africa, right? Because it wasn't the same thing. It didn't come over here untranslated.

We did stuff. We fiddled, no pun intended, with it to make it what it is today. So black people have been in the country. My daddy, from the beginning, my daddy was from Georgia. Mama from Alabama. We listened to country music in Detroit. I'm proud to be an Okie from Muskogee. We listened to people whose politics were diametrically opposed to ours.

I love a lot of country people who, if they knew who I was, would find me reprehensible. So we understood the power of the music. Red Foley listened to this program. Hank Williams. Hey, good looking. What you got cooking? How's about cooking something up with me? Right.

We listen to that. We listen to George Jones. He stopped loving her today. Now, we didn't see in the song he stopped loving her because he was dead. But that was an interesting thing. Or Lee Greenwood, who Donald Trump has made a Bible based on his song. So, you know, I find him quite reprehensible. But his music was powerful. He was talking about a woman who cheated on him. He said she had a ring on her finger, but time on her hands.

Damn. Come on, bro. I mean, come on. I mean, or or the song, you know, if I had killed you when I met you, I would have been out of jail by now. I mean, some great classics in there. Right. There's some there's some gangster country. My point is what what what what she did, what Beyonce did was reintroduce America. Allow me to reintroduce myself. Allow America to understand that country music. Right. Is the white blues and blues might be the black country. It's a similar aperture. It's a similar appetite. It's a white blues and blues might be the black country. It's a similar aperture. It's a similar appetite. It's a similar perspective.

And what she is into, she's from Houston. That's right. What do you think she listened to besides R and B or soul and rock music and so on? She listened to country music, to black folk music. And what she has done is introduce people to folk that they never even knew

before. The, The black girls backing her up. Britney Spencer, all of them. She introduced Linda Martell, who was a great singer and songwriter. She introduces a black woman. She introduced her to him.

Us to her. Think about Ray Charles. Ray Charles made an album with songs of country and western, right? Sounds of country and Western. I'm getting the title wrong. But the country establishment rejected him. And yet he gave a greater audience to country music than it had for a long time. That's right. Beyonce is doing the same thing, even though some people might try to hate on her. The fact is she has made country cool as one of the artists sings again.

And she's made it viable and she's made it controversial in the most productive fashion that is to say she's forced people to consider what is country how do we define it is it reba mcintyre is it dolly pardon she flips dolly pardon no i ain't gonna say hey jolene you you're taking my man i'm saying i'm threatening you you better not touch him so she adds her beyonce moment she says this is not a country album. It's a Beyonce album, which means I am the impresario of my own musical taste. And it can include country music and I can dip down in it, show you I can do it and then dip out and show you I can do other things. I think what she's done is extraordinary. It's powerful. It's instructive. And again, like she does with most of her music, it helps us

understand a history, an archive, a tradition, a trajectory, and the power of what she represents is far more than some sexy woman on a cover. Even the cover with the American flag, right? The blue being obscured because of justice, as some have interpreted the blood flowing, her ability to be vulnerable at the same time to lay claim to what it means to be an American. She's courageous. She's powerful powerful and that album is uh is dope we had alice randall on uh and she said she said the same thing about ray charles she actually said beyonce is ray charles's daughter because she speaks about the first family of black country right she said for the same reason you said ray charles bought a brand new audience the country music made the audience bigger beyonce's doing the same thing now she is i mean and even the black people like why are we doing that why is she wearing a cowboy hat why is she doing like the white folk that's you don't

even understand they done white knives your imagination so deep you don't understand what y'all gave to the to the art form um and um when i think about my friend, Dennis, uh, share, uh, and his, uh, uh, lovely wife, uh, they are out here. This is shares, uh, you know, doing serious work. He's a cowboy champion. Uh, she's an articulate spokeswoman, uh, for not only cosmetics, but for country music. They started a radio, um, um, you know, uh, uh, uh, not a radio, but a music group. They started their own record label. I mean, black people are doing a lot of stuff.

Deadwood Dick, Bill Pickett. I studied these people in the fifth grade. My teacher made us study them. There's a long tradition of black cowboys, of black country artists, of people who have been doing stuff, and yet we don't give them credit. And Beyonce has single-handedly resurrected, like she did with Act I,

when she delved into the history of dance and house music and to show the gay aesthetic at the heart of that tradition. And now coming back with the country stuff and showing how we've been involved in it, just the level of her genius is remarkable. I got one last question for you. We talked about male vulnerability. We saw J. Cole recently apologize to Kendrick Lamar

for some... They were going back and forth on the record, right? I didn't have no problem with the apology. I feel like if it didn't sit well... When he said he didn't sit well with my spirit, I ain't got nothing else to talk about. He didn't sit well with his spirit. What do you think? No, I saw you.

You were brilliant about that. Give him the donkey of the day out to people who don't understand it. What's interesting to me is how Kendrick Lamar has escaped all scrutiny. What's interesting to me is that he started this stuff, right? Why is it that when both Drake and J. Cole said, what do you think? Big three. They're giving you love, bro.

They're saying you part of Big. No, it ain't no Big Three. It's Big Me. Okay, I get it. That's the bravado of hip-hop and so on i think kendrick lamar in many ways is pock as he was drake and jay cole is pock as he could have been and that's the clash right the evolution of tupac right he dies at what 25 years old I mean what would he have been at 50 right the level of genius he already possessed Tupac was one of the greatest intellectuals in the history of hip hop off mic

he was cold on the mic somebody wake me I'm dreaming I started as a seed the semen swimming upstream planted in the womb while screaming on the top was my pops my mama hollering stop from a single drop this is what they got. Not to disrespect my people, but my papa was a loser. Only plan EF a mama was to F her and abuse her.

And even as a seed, I could see his plan for me. Stranded on welfare, another broken family. He was dope. Who would have to do karaoke together? You know so many songs. Like karaoke. We could do that. We could do that.

But beyond that, his ability to explain, deconstruct and challenge politics and culture. That's why he's still relevant, because he was so powerful. But he was also a Gemini. Right. Or was he? Was he? Yeah. And he had a lot of going on in his mind. And he was he was provocative. He he was volatile i think he was out of control in many ways and that's why i think kendrick lamar had him narrate right to pimp a butterfly right he's talking about pock i have a conversation with pop one of the greatest acts of rhetorical appropriation and genius that is uh mr kendrick lamar's to pimp a butterfly but that's why he's he's attracted to that part of tupac. I think J. Cole and Drake are the more mature expression

of a Pac who would see, you ain't got to kill everybody. You ain't got to dog everybody. You ain't got to be better than everybody. Even Jay-Z said when he's on that song with, you know, Lil Wayne, my air. So here is my wife and I, you know, come harder, come faster. Why else? Why bother? That's right. The mature people, the ones who are in control of their stuff,

they ain't mad because I know who I am. But Kendrick seems to be obsessed even though he's got a Pulitzer, even though he's brilliant, even though he's a genius, even though I do think Rolling Stone had it wrong though. Jay-Z won, Kendrick two, Nas three.

Bro, you ain't got enough work, right? And you got great work. I agree with that. But the work of Nas, the work of Jay, that's on a different order. So I'm saying. Too early for Kendrick. It is too early. He's a genius.

He's one of the top rappers ever. But I say all that to say, look, I think J. Cole was mature. He wasn't. It was half-hearted anyway. My heart's not in it because he could have destroyed him more than that. J. Cole is a surgeon with those words. He's precise. He's surgical in his strikes.

Drake is a monster. Drake can't even respond. Maybe he'll respond tonight. Maybe J. Cole, I don't think J. Cole will. Maybe with Metro booming and the future coming out again with their deluxe, maybe Kendrick has more to say. I think, you know, look, it was mature to say, I'm not going to take this in a negative fashion.

I don't even believe this guy because I love him and appreciate him. That should shame Kendrick. I don't think it will. That should say to Kendrick, what am I doing wrong that three men who are great, two of them recognize me, but I have to be the only one in the sandlot to play with the toys because I'm the greatest. That's one way of talking about it. But there are other ways of talking about masculinity. There are other ways to talk about greatness. There are other ways of speaking because Drake said he was the coldest. J. Cole said he was the coldest. And Kendrick said he's the coldest. But they didn't do it at the expense of you. They didn't name your name to try to suggest that you are not the bellwether, the benchmark, or the standard by which hip-hop should be judged.

So I think it's a little bit more growing needs to be done by Kendrick Lamar to catch up with his rhetorical genius, his psychological disposition. Because as you said, when we look back maybe 444 and what's mr mr morale and mr morale big stepper i mean to me kingdom come was a warm-up for 444 that got rejected unfairly i'd be the only beef i've ever had with jay-z is that put um kingdom come higher on your list of your own albums because it was a mature effort when When we look at Drake's Take Care, when we look at maybe even Nothing Was Ever the Same, I mean, J. Cole, Drake, and Kendrick have made ingenious music, and we ain't

got to choose one over the other. We can have personal preferences, for sure, but I think Kendrick Lamar needs to be challenged a little bit to grow up. Alright, well, there you have it. Michael Eric Dyson. Always a pleasure, sir. And I love Kendrick Lamar. That's what I'm saying. Appreciate you for joining us. Thank you all for having me. The Michael Eric Dyson. Always a pleasure, sir. And I love Kendrick Lamar. That's what I'm saying.

Appreciate you for joining us. Thank you all for having me. It's the Breakfast Club. Good morning. Wake that ass up. Early in the morning. The Breakfast Club.